Vet P.O.V. Mandatory FeLV and FIV testing for feral cat colonies?

February 15th, 2007  

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I guess I'd need a little more information. How easily are these diseases transmitted to healthy cats? How are they transmitted?

Arlene February 15th, 2007 12:27:00 PM

That's stupid! Like you already said, what is the point of putting these cats through surgery if they already have diseases that are going to kill them anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I think it is admirable for what they are doing. We have groups here that have kept feral colonies alive and protected for years, but any cat or kitten that comes up positive for FIV or FeLV is put down as they are threat to the parts of the colony that have not been spayed or neutered.

If the kitten is too young, it is kept in quarantine until it is old enough to be tested. If the results of the testing is questionable, the animal is re-tested.

You are doing them a huge favor, never mind the fact that your hosptial is giving them everything at cost or below. I'd remind them of this simple fact and lay down the law. Either have these animals tested prior to surgery or no surgery. If you feel obligated to do these surgeries, start making them pay more than they already do for your services.

It's one thing to be strapped for cash, it's another when good deeds are being taken advantage of. If they're smart, they'll agree to having their animals tested despite how they feel about euthanisa.

Stacy February 15th, 2007 12:51:00 PM

I agree with you Dr. Patty, as long as an "if the cat can't be placed" clause is in there.

I'm just an vet assistant (soon to be tech!), but for the person who asked about how easily these diseases are transmitted:

I don't know a whole lot about FeLV except that it is more "contagious" than FIV. I know quite a bit about FIV though because I just rescued an FIV+ cat who now lives quite peacefully at my Mom's with his FIV- little brother.

In general terms, because I don't know the medicalese yet, FIV is a virus that basically attacks the cat's immune system. It strikes male, unneutered, outdoor cats most because this group has the greatest tendency toward fighting. FIV is mainly transmitted through deep, penetrating bites (saliva to blood contact) so, it is very possible that an infected cat can live with a non infected cat and pose little risk as long as they don't fight or engage in very rought play.

As far as we know, FIV is not a very robust virus--it can't live long outside its hose. Therefore, there is little risk that it can be transmitted by using the same little box, mutual grooming, etc. Because FIV is a slow acting virus, cats can live a long and relatively normal life when kept indoors away from germs and sick animals. Since these cats have a weak immune system, things like upper resp. or an eye infection or something that a healthy cat could fight on its own or with mild antibiotics, can be very dangerous to them. This is why it's so dangerous for feral cats to have FIV. They're outside living with outher sick cats and their immune system can't take it. Not to mention that they could infect other cats on a daily basis.

There is no cure for FIV, vets treat it by carefully monitering patients through wellness checks and preventative care. All we can do is aggresively treat any secondary infections that arise as a result of the compromised immune system. When the cat enters the final stages of the disease, which can be years from when it's initially infected, the immune system basically is so bad that the cat is always sick. Most often, this is when owners opt to euthanise.

Anyway, you can see why it's basically a lose-lose situation when a feral cat has FIV. And Since FeLeuk is more contagious (and faster acting??), I guess that is even worse.

Amber February 15th, 2007 01:15:00 PM

And clearly by "hose" I meant "host". :P

Amber February 15th, 2007 01:17:00 PM

I agree with you - unless it can be homed. In the wildlife field here, we have two prevalent diseases that mainly affect doves and pigeons, but can be transmitted to the raptors that eat them. Both of these can be treated with longterm antibiotics and force-feeding, which is just not feasible for large numbers. If it is a bird that is very special to someone, and they are willing to commit to the time needed to treat, it's different. If released without that longterm treatment, it will infect other birds, and eventually die a slow and painful death (from both sicknesses). It's hard to make those decisions, especially for something like a cat. But it's better in the long run for both the individual and the group, and that has to be part of the decision making

jcat February 15th, 2007 02:33:00 PM

Both diseases are spread primarily through fighting and mating. So, on the one hand, spaying/neutering and vaccinating *should* do a great deal toward reducing the spread of either disease. BUT... in feral colonies, cats may have to fight others for territory- such as new cats trying to move in to the colony's turf, or compete for food if not enough is provided to keep each colony member well-fed.

Not only do untested cats jeopardize the health of the entire colony, cats infected with either/both virus have a much higher incidence of failing to recover properly or as quickly as others from the surgery, coupled with the stress of being trapped and delivered to the hospital for this surgery.

Cats SHOULD be tested prior to surgery, as their health status effects their recovery and resistance to even the mildest germ that is present in the air at any given time. Those who test positive should be removed from the colony to protect the health of the remaining cats. Those who are removed should either be placed in homes equipped to identify and properly care for any illness, or euthanized if no proper homes are available. I know this view sounds cold and clinical, but you have to consider what is in the best interest of the entire population of the colony rather than the sympathy for the one or two who test positive. Those caretakers who do not want infected cats PTS should be willling to open their homes to those cats who test positive- therefore having the best of both worlds- the health of the colony is not at risk, and the infected cats are not destroyed. JMHO.

Margaret February 15th, 2007 02:44:00 PM

I definitely think you should mandate FLV/FIV testing prior to spaying/neutering ferals. Here's how I've always looked at it (and how I got past my emotional hang-ups whenever I needed to decide what to do with a sick feral): Can it be cured? No. Does the disease cause suffering/pain? Eventually. And finally (and here's the kicker) - is it something I can reliably treat or monitor? With tame kitties, it's not a problem - w/ferals, it is. The bottom line is, if this cat has FLV or FIV, it most likely will eventually start to suffer or be in pain - and I won't be able to do anything about it. The thought of not being able to help a sick or suffering animal actually bothers me more than the thought of humanely euthanizing one that is currently subclinical.

anna February 15th, 2007 03:25:00 PM

Require the testing. As someone else said, if they have a disease, it will affect the animal's recovery time from the spay/neuter surgery, and will cause the animal additional pain.

Whether to euthanize the affected cats is a separate discussion (unless mandated by law). If you release them back into the wild, you are not making the situation any worse than had you not tested, but you *are* making the Cat Network aware of the real situation.

My personal opinion is that we do not euthanize humans with AIDS, we should not euthanize cats with FIV. Perhaps euthanize if the animal is in very obvious pain (but then, perhaps we should allow this option for humans too), but not if it appears to be living a normal life.

zandperl February 15th, 2007 06:45:00 PM

I commend Dr. Patty for assisting in the spay/neuter of the feral cats. I do not think it is asking too much to test and humanely euthanize the affected animals. I have worked in wildlife/exotic/domestic animal rescue for many years, and I have come to believe that in hopeless cases euthanasia is preferable to a slow, painful death. Euthanasia is the last gift we can give to these animals, and yes I have done the procedure or assisted many times. I have held the animals, tried to comfort them as they died and shed many tears.

I have worked with many "animal" people who try to preserve life at any cost. They truly believe that they are doing it for the animal, however they are often just wrapped up in their own ego, or fear of death or the idea that they can save every animal. This type of attitude does not consider what is best for an individual animal or an animal population as a whole.

I think Dr. Patty has a tough decision to make. Returning the infected animals to the feral cat colony is just wrong for many reasons. However, if the cat group will not allow testing and Dr. Patty turns them away then there will be more problems too. More cats breeding will add to the chances of more infected cats.

Is there a more reasonable member of the cat group you could approach and calmly try to state your case? Could you covertly test all the cats and euth. the infected ones? Yes I know this sounds cold - and possibly illegal - but I am just thinking of options.

Good luck Dr. Patty. You have a difficult decision to make. By the way, most of the wildlife advocates I have worked with believe ALL feral cats should be trapped and killed. It is not a idea I share!

Susan February 15th, 2007 06:58:00 PM

I support testing all cats for FIV/FeLV. Make it a condition of the TNVR deal you have with them. If the animals test positive for either virus, the health of the colony has to be more important than any one individual. The most humane option is to prevent that one cat the inevitable suffering and slow death it will face as a feral and at the same time prevent the suffering of every other cat it would infect during the course of its remaining time by euthanizing it. I know sometimes talking to people that are *convinced* that they know how their [insert animal here] feels and what needs to be done is like talking to a brick wall, but if you can prevent new infections and the years of suffering they'll result in, it's worth it.

HOWEVER, if the cat is not actually feral, and it's just a domestic stray trapped by mistake (people confusing the two is a personal pet peeve, found outside=/= feral!!), every effort should be made to rehome it regardless of it's viral status. This may not always be possible, especially with FeLV, but one of the rescues I work with has successfully placed many FIV+ into knowledgeable, loving, permanent homes. Oddly enough, every single one of them (all middle aged toms when they came in) turned out to be the most mellow, easy, work-in-any-home cats that came through.

lindabcs February 15th, 2007 08:06:00 PM

Hi. Normally I am a lurker here, but I felt the need to post on this topic. BTW, I really enjoy reading your posts.

I support a local cat rescue organization, Save Our Strays. I support them because they do not euthanize any cats in their care. If this rescue organization you support started euthanizing cats, they could lose donor support, which means financial loss. Save Our Strays does test feral cats for FIV/FeLV. Any cats that test positive, and can't be placed in a private home, go to live in a shelter that S.O.S. has created. They have land with trailers and the feral cats go to live there where they live indoors, are fed, cared for daily and have their health is monitored. I prefer to give my money to an organization like that who cares for all animals, not just the healthy ones.

ERC February 16th, 2007 09:59:00 AM

Euthanizing without saying why is immoral and illegal imo. The organization technically owns those cats. Plus, it would shoot a huge hole in the good doctor's reputation if a large percentage of neutering cases were to suddenly allegedly die on the operating table.

If you can talk them into figuring out where to care for the FLV/FIV cats so they are separate from the general population, then yes, testing should be mandantory. I would approach them with the idea of segregation and not automatic euthanasia. This is the more expensive path, but the moral high ground.

I am in favor of testing mandantory anyway, and encourage them to decide what should happen to the positive cats. I agree they should not be returned to the general colony. I don't like to think of euthanasia, but I completely understand it.

Georg February 16th, 2007 10:39:00 AM

I think the best way to look at this is to see it from the point of view in which the greatest benefit will be gained by the greatest number of individuals (and here, we are clearly talking about cats; you can’t compare cats to people!). The way I see it, the most humane way to deal with infected cats is to euthanize them.
Why? Well, first of all, these are feral cats we’re talking about here, not the kind that like to curl into your lap and purr as you rub behind their ears. Second, eventually these animals will suffer tremendously because of their disease and the situation in their living environment; everyone who owns/works with/treats cats knows how well they hide their weaknesses. Third, keeping them alive to live a life in a cage (remember, we’re talking feral here!) is not a humane solution. Judging by the cats’ reactions when they’re being trapped for spay/neuter/vaccination/testing, I think it’s fair to say these animals would not enjoy spending the rest of their lives in trailers, which no matter how well cared for they are, are probably very loud and smelly places. We have to remember that these are not human beings, these are wild animals.
Dr. Patty, I think your best bet is to try to reason with these people, but by the looks of it, it doesn’t sound like they’ll listen.

Ana February 16th, 2007 11:35:00 AM

ERC- Are these cats spayed or neutered before they go to these trailers?

I understand that they don't want to euthanize these animals because of the threat of financial loss, but what are they doing to control further outbreaks of FIV and FeLV?

It is a shelters obligation IMO to stress the importance of spaying and neutering which is part of part of why there are feral colonies to begin with, then by not spaying or neutering is only making matters worse. The one's that are strong enough to breed will, then there are kittens being born with these diseases so the cycle never ends. Sick cats breed, those kitten grow up and breed, ect..

I don't mean to pick you out of the crowd here, but how do donors feel about supporting this endless cycle? Are they even made aware of it? And at what point is the decision made to put these animals down as they do need to be eventually. Allowing a cat to suffer from either one of these diseases is inhumane in and of itself.

Stacy February 16th, 2007 12:09:00 PM

Let me point out the elephant in the room that no one in TNR/cat colony managemnent argument allows to be acknowleged. The domestic cat (Felis catus) is an exotic, introduced species in the New World that devastates local wildlife. They kill wildlife by many mechanisms: hunting; spreading of diseases like Toxoplamosis, distemper, rabies, ascarids and other parasites; as well as out-competing native animals for food, shelter and space. For example, entire populations of sea lions are dying (nearing extinction) in California due to a Toxoplamsosis enzootic - caused by outdoor cats. Outdoor cats are also belived to be behind a large distemper enzootic that is killing lions and other great cats in subsaharan Africa. The only reason to allow outdoor cats is a modern human romantic notion of cuteness of their outdoor hunting and hiding behavior. That is completely irresponsible if we are to pretend to care about animals. To pick out the domestic cat as worthy of our protection, when it so obviously comes at the cost of so many other nameless, but equaly worthy species, is the ultimate hypocrisy. The elephant I'd like to point out is that all domestic cats need to be removed from the outdoors and brought indoors. What we do with the cats that can't be homed is a completely separate issue. Advocates of TNR like to raise the homeless cat issue to obfuscate the real problem: an exotic, highly efficient killer in our midst, that we simply don't have the will to bring indoors.

Marc February 16th, 2007 12:55:00 PM

Most TNR groups do not do mandatory testing for a number of reasons - low rate of infection in feral cats, number of "false positive" tests, and cost of testing. Alley Cat Allies, the "source" for feral cat info. has some wonderful information about this topic. The studies they cite indicate a very low incidence of either FIV or FeLV in feral cat colonies (around 2%). The tests may have a false positive rate of 20%. Even when an organization is able to obtain the tests at a discounted rate, they still take a chunk out of a budget that could be used to sterilize more cats.

Lisa February 16th, 2007 05:39:00 PM

One of the many moral conundrums that we face daily in veterinary practice. Personally I think thatyou should charge to cover costs, at least of materials used. Your help to the charity is the giving of your time.
Your neutering of the individual is undoubtedly better for that individual within the colony situation and whilst not ignoring the FeLV/FIV issue I think that decision has to be left to the people who have taken responsibility for the colony.
Many charities in the UK have this self same problem. A cost V welfare issue. Do you test all, none or just sick animals. What do you do with +ves and do you accept a single test result or do you end up euthanasing possibly transiently positive cats. Do all these ferals have to be sedated to get the blood in the first place and what sort of costs does that entail.
The moral conundrums are endless and in all honesty I don't feel there is a right or wrong answer. There is an ideal but most charity resources won't stretch to the ideal either monetary wise or space wise.

jackholly February 17th, 2007 04:27:00 AM

So many answers so little time to respond...
First: Amber: Great explanation. Want a job?
Second: The elephant in the room is getting bigger every day. You make a compelling argument for bringing ALL cats indoors--NOW.
Third: Thanks for all your help.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 17th, 2007 08:24:00 AM

Why not get an epidemiologist to come talk to them? It would get you out of the firing line and provide them with some valuable information. Just get someone to llay out the issues and encourage the group to discuss it. It might be hard to get someone down from Gainesville, but a talk from someone in Miami's human public health infrastructure would probably work fine.

Thing One February 17th, 2007 10:09:00 AM

Stacy-

Hi. Yes, the cats are spayed/nutered prior to going to live at the shelter. There is a volunteer who lives, free of charge on the property, who looks in on the cats daily. They are fed and their medical needs are attended to. Most of the money for this is provided by the ladies who originally started this organization. There is a link on their web page that talkes about their shelter, so yes, the donors do know about this. I personally would rather support an organization that takes care of the animals until the end instead of destroying them. I hope Dr. Patty doesn't mind, but here is a link to their web site, specifically about the shelter. http://www.saveourstrays.org/caretakers.php?PHPSES...
(Their web site hasn't been updated recently. The volunteers who maintain the website recently had a baby)


Two of my "girls" were adopted from them. The mother was found, pregnant and homeless. A foster couple took the mother in, cared for her during the last few weeks of her pregnancy and took care of the kittens, socializing them and the mother. The mother was spayed after the kittens were born, they all had their shots and flea treatment. I adopted two sisters, Opal & Daiya, who were both socialized well and made a wonderful addition to our family. They now have a pretty cushy life, if I do say so myself : ) The mother and all three kittens found homes.

ERC February 17th, 2007 10:56:00 AM

Lots of great comments being made here. (I always enjoy reading this blog.) I think you should print this out or have the folks from the Cat Network read the comments posted here. It would show them that lots of other caring people out there have come to the same conclusion that you have re. FeLV and FIV testing and course of action. They might not want to hear it from you, but maybe they`ll listen to other people like themselves who have the cats` best interests at heart. I am reminded of Spock`s simple yet eloquent statement about the needs of the many (colony) outweighing the needs of the few or the one (individuals that test positive).

Good luck!

Chirps February 20th, 2007 10:16:00 PM

Chirps: That's not a bad idea. I have at least one contact on the board who's willing to actually listen.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 23rd, 2007 08:14:00 AM

I had been trying for about 6 months to help a feral kitty that had come in the summer. I started feeding him and tried to get him to trust me so I could catch him, get him neutered, get his shots and try to move him in with our cat. If I got too close he would spit and growl. I named him Shadow, as he was solid black and always hid under the deck in the shadows.

He finally started to come when I called him and I taught him to come in trap door in a basement window. I fed him just inside the window on a shelf where it was a bit warmer and he did not have to fight off all the neighborhood cats that tried to steal his food. On cold nights he would sleep inside on the shelf where he was safe from the foxes and raccoons. He could not be convinced to venture away from his trap door that was his escape to the outside world. Even on cold days he preferred his little outside bed to his inside one.

He came one night with a very swollen eye so I decided to watch and see if it got better. It did improve some so I left him alone. Then he came with both eyes swollen and one with a hemorrhage. He also had large swollen areas on his forehead above each eye. I was afraid he could not see well and worried that he would lose his vision. We decided to trap him. The vet said she would give him IV antibiotics, neuter him, give him his shots and we could take him home again.

They called back later to say he had both FIV and FeLv. The vet said he could not be allowed outside anymore and he could not live with our indoor cat as leukemia is too contagious. Our option was to keep him in a couple of rooms in the house away from our cat but it did not seem right to make him stay in such a confined space and I was afraid the stress of being inside would only worsen his condition. Wild and afraid as he was he had tried hard to be friends and it broke my heart to make the decision to put him down.

I expect my Shadow cat came to us for help in desperation because he was sick and suffering.
I know your choice is probably the right and the one that will protect other cats from suffering the effects of these diseases but I can understand how difficult a decision it is for the rescue groups make once they have become attached to the cats in their colony. It was a difficult decision for us, and we regulary have to reconvince ourselves that it was the right thing to do. At least for the last six months of his life there was someone who cared about him and sheltered him and protected him from his predators.

Kathleen Campenni March 3rd, 2007 04:41:00 PM

Please dont kill them. We dont unless they are obviously sick. We also do not have the time and resources to test as you suggest. Our goal is to take cats out of the breeding cycle. We did that for over 8,000 free roaming cats (AzCATs) last year plus more with other organizations in Phoenix. If we tested every one, we would need a lot more time, space, money and volunteers. These cats are all free roaming but not all wild as you suggest. Many have been deserted and many are bred intentionally but end up in unfortunate conditions. Each person in animal rescue has unique ideas and ways of helping so everyone of us disagree on one issue or procedure or another. The point is just help them and be glad for any persons efforts; there are not enough compassionate people to rescue all the needy animals so lets encourage every effort. Equinimaty in our care and concern for all animals would be admirable for a vet. Please look into their hearts and help them. thanks, dennis waugaman

dennis waugaman March 7th, 2007 11:34:00 PM

FIV is a slow acting virus. This means that a cat who acquires FIV can live as long as a cat that doesn't have FIV although when he gets older his immune system is compromised and it is more difficult for him to fight off colds. I have a cat at least 14 years old who has FIV while my other cats do NOT even though they share the same food and water dishes and have been groomed by him. It can only be spread by a cat bite. There is no reason to put down a cat with FIV. Felv is a different situation although I have heard of cats with Felv having contact with other cats that don't have this virus with no ill effects due to being protected by receiving Felv vacinations. Ideally cats with Felv shouldn't mingle with other cats because PROLONGED exsposure such as GROOMING, sharing cat dishes puts the cats free of Felv who have received their Felv vacinations at 85% risk of getting Felv according to one website.Other sources think there is even less risk.

Paula martin April 18th, 2009 01:08:02 AM

Thank you.  I have looked everywhere and could not find in straight english until now, that if a friendly stray is FIV+ and obviously sick, it is then okay to euthanize it.  Thank you.  All we could find repeatedly is do not do it just because it is FIV+ or do not do it if it is only FIV+.  Treat the symptoms.  But finally, if is is sick, do it.  Thank you.  This cat is very sick, and my husband wants to prolong it's suffering and he doesn't realize cats hide their pain.  He doesn't trust the vet's decision to want to put it down.  He wants it to die a natural death.  It came to us starving five days ago, and he at least wants to fatten it up and give it some love and comfort.  Does he want to pay to have it's teeth pulled, does he want to pay to neuter it, does he want the cat's pain and ours to get worse with time?  Thank you for posting what needs to be said and stressed more frequently for those people who need to hear it in plain english.  I hope he will make the right decision to let me take it back to the vet a final time soon.

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