Vet P.O.V. Here she is…Miss…Westminster?

February 16th, 2007  

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I am hooked on dog shows as well, and agree that the outfits and hair on the handlers are ridiculous, awful, etc. I love the gorgeous purebreds, but over the years have come to wonder why these animals, beautiful enough in their natural state, continue to be cropped and docked, which in the present, has no useful purpose other than to conform to some artificial standard of "perfection". I would love to see the AKC begin to move away from the practice of altering the appearance of an already perfect animal simply because that's the way it's always been done. Ear crops and tail docking serves no purpose in the modern world, and as purported leaders in the world of dogdom, the AKC should become a leader in humane practice by no longer accepting these practices as the norm.

Shellie February 16th, 2007 09:52:00 PM

I'm not a fan of the AKC, but I do watch dog shows as where else can I see all of my favorite breeds under one roof. Most of the working group, Irish Wolfhounds and Terriers, oh my! LOL

I've worked with a number of people that showed their dogs and I found most them to be just as obnoxious as their dogs. One bred and showed Burmese Mountain Dogs. She had no control over any of her dogs and they knew it. They would rather snap a persons face off than put on their best in show behavior. Yes they were gorgous, but they were also a lawsuit waiting to happen.

The woman my parents bought their Shiba Inu from was also into the whole dog show thing. She actually made her dogs behave whether they were in the ring or not, but if she were still alive today, I would have given her a firm speaking to about the dogs she was breeding since our recent discovery of Victoria's hip problems. Victoria also came from "champion lines" with a price tag to match her title.

Years ago I bought a German Shepard puppy that was said to come from champion lines. Cybil was brought back to the breeder as she had heart problems, hip problems and issues with her elbows. That didn't include a the nasty bacterial infection that covered her feet, possible IBD and a severe underbite. I had been friends of that breeder for years, but once I brought back the list of documented things wrong with their champion puppy, I earned the first place on her s--t list.

Then of course there is the recent issue of the AKC becoming involved with pet stores which further deepens my suspicions of the group to be begin with. The AKC is supposed to weed out the poor breeders, but yet they are saying quality dogs can be purchased from pet stores and puppy mills? Blech!

I'll never spend $1,000 or more to purchase a dog. I will spend that kind of money in vet bills, but never again on a piece of paper that says that a dog is AKC registered and all the foolishness that comes with it. I'll continue to take my chances with underdogs or broken dogs as while they have their problems, it's easier to deal with dog problems than the egos of alot of dog breeders.

Cat breeders are not any better by the way. I had too many run-in's with a certain Bangel breder that I wish I could forget. I think Bangel's are gorgous cats, but I'll never own one because I associate them with that one breeder. Her prized cats developed her own neurotic behavior as if Bangel's really need an extra push in that department.

Stacy February 17th, 2007 09:06:00 AM

I'd rather the handlers NOT dress like beauty contestants. While I'd prefer they update their wardrobe to 'normal' attire versus 1970s-ish outfits, either way- I'm there to watch the dogs, not the handlers.

And I DO so love the dogs!

(The show world, as a whole, I think is too involved in political issues and gossip-y, for me, btw).

Katalyst February 17th, 2007 12:03:00 PM

Oh, I could so write a book about this. A couple of years ago, I was having a mid-life crisis after leaving a big corporate job. I didn't have a job, my kids were graduating from college and my two dogs died within a month of each other. I decided I was going to show dogs! Never been around a person who had done so, but, hey, I can do anything. So, I went to dog shows, talked to breeders, trying to decide on my breed. I knew I didn't want a major shedder, nor a terrier, or a toy dog. I almost went with a Portugese Water Dog, but their energy level was a bit too much for our family. So I settled on a Standard Poodle. Never mind that this is probably the most difficult breed for an amateur to start off with. I could litterally make you weep with laughter (if you have a good sense of humor, because dog show people don't) at the stories of me getting this giant, WHITE standard poodle ready for a show. We're talking days of work.

Or then there's the story of my 8 yr. old nephew, who upon seeing Norman trimmed in the continental clip on his first birthday (you know, the butt pom poms), declared, "that's just not right...he needs underwear."

All of those stories are funny. What isn't funny is how STUPID dog show people are. They can't talk to people. They aren't nice. Their ideas of perfection in the poodle are stupid. You can't tell me that a skinny, skinny head helps the poodle do the job he was bred for. Or why would Norman need hair on his head that sticksup 18 inches, full of hair spray to retrieve birds? He'd scare all the birds away.

Poodle show people promote disrespect for the breed by their dumb ideas of what the breed should look like. Standard Poodles are smart, very athletic, and funny. They don't need all that ugly hair!

Speaking of looks....poodle handlers, in general (some have a little class) are the sloppiest, most unkept handlers I've seen. I guess they spend so much time on the dog, they can't brush their own hair. Besides that, they just are awful to anyone new to the "sport".

I sure am glad I'm past my mid-life crisis.

Kimberly J Hanson February 18th, 2007 08:51:00 AM

"You can't tell me that a skinny, skinny head helps the poodle do the job he was bred for. Or why would Norman need hair on his head that sticksup 18 inches, full of hair spray to retrieve birds? He'd scare all the birds away."

ROTFLMAO!

Stacy February 18th, 2007 10:16:00 AM

Had to comment again- show people cannot be lumped into the 'stupid' category. I'm assuming they are a lot like regular people- some fall head first into that category and others manage to stay out with their wits.

Of course, I bet it would be interesting to compare the different breeds' handlers- like- are Afghan Hound handlers snobbish? After all, their dogs are supposed to appear 'aloof' in the ring- do the owners appear this way as well? What about Saint owners? Are they full of energy? (Do they drool on you? LOL!)

Katalyst February 18th, 2007 11:27:00 AM

I usually lurk, but I had to speak up as a newly minted show dog handler (amateur) with my first conformation show champion living in residence and address a few of the issues brought up.

My dog lives like any other normal dog. He romps in the backyard, likes to roll in roadkill and mud and fetches kong toys. He also is well-socialized and extremely friendly to man and beast because he's been going to dog shows and events regularly since he received his final round of puppy vaccinations. He is also being trained for competitive obedience and retriever events. He was chosen from a breeder who breeds for the love of the breed -- she took health, temperament, trainability and (yes) good looks, all into consideration. And she breeds only when she has a waiting list for pups and only when she wants one from the litter for herself.

The reason the handlers dress the way they do: one does not dress in colors or fashion that flatters onseself. One dresses in colors that contrast with the dog (notice that handlers of dark dogs wear light or bright colors and vice versa) and one's choice in attire is often dictated by how easy it is to run in and if it has easily accessible pockets. Believe me, the judge looks at the dogs. The judge might use the handler to help them remember what they see in a dog, thus the reason for some of the craziness. As for the sparkles -- well, it's Westminster!

Regarding dog grooming: even some of us who show cringe when we see a poodle with a continental clip or a Portugese Water Dog with clipped hindquarters. BUT, it is up to the exhibitor to show the dog the way they want it to be shown as long as it is allowed by the breed standard. A puppy cut is allowed for poodles and I have seen a poodle in a puppy cut win Best of Breed. You won't see that at Westminster though.... well, because it's Westminster! In the standard for the breed I show, obvious barbering is supposed to be faulted in favor of a more natural presentation, but the top dogs are all clipped far more than the breed standard says they should be. Is that going to change my more natural presentation? Not on your life.

Regarding cropping and docking: here, I agree. In the UK and Europe, dogs like Boxers (as an example) are shown with natural ears. My breed of choice requires no cropping or docking to meet the breed standard. By my choice, I am supporting a dog breed that doesn't require surgery to meet the standard.

Regarding obnoxious breeders and exhibitors: please don't paint us all with one brush. I have met obnoxious dog show people in pretty much equal proportions to obnoxious dog owners in general -- and likewise friendly and helpful people. When I show, I go out of my way to be nice to spectators and let anyone pet my dog. (Frankly, he shows better if he gets attention from strangers before going in the ring -- most judges don't resent friendly dog kisses, but they can see my dog better if he's not wagging his whole body in anticipation of greeting the one human in the ring who isn't attached to a dog. >ggg<)

I showed my dog because I was encouraged to by an extremely helpful and supportive breeder and by friends who train and show dogs. I love entering strange, new worlds having been there before with my horse. The dog show world is very tradition bound. I'm a person who normally bristles when confronted with "tradition" so I took it as a personal challenge to make my way. I had some great experiences with it and some not-so-great experiences. The great experiences more than made up for the not-so-great ones. I made many new friends and rediscovered some old ones.

To address some other concerns: AKC backed down pretty quickly from it's decision to partner with the pet store chain. AKC is a "club of clubs" meaning that it doesn't have members, it has member clubs, each of which sends a delegate to an annual meeting. The delegates were over-whelmingly *against* AKC's decision to align with the pet store. The delegates wishes prevailed. I agree that AKC could be more progressive in some areas of animal care, but AKC does not represent purebred dog lovers. They are simply a registry and event administrator. Should they be more? Yes, I think so but with their current structure, I don't think they can be.

A final note: Westminster is it's own unique beast. It has little in common with the local weekend dog shows. A dog show is a great way to check out a breed if you think you might be interested in it. So are obedience and agility trials.

Deanna February 18th, 2007 04:11:00 PM

Forgot to mention that I own two mix-breed dogs as well as the two PB's, contribute to a local rescue group, support spay/neuter programs and foster rescues when I can. I've even helped out Bernese Mountain Dogs.

;-)

Deanna

Deanna February 18th, 2007 04:20:00 PM

OK, I take it back. Not all dog show people are stupid. Not many are actually. I was being overly dramatic. One of my good friends is a breeder and shows her standards, and she is definitely not stupid. But poodle handlers and breeders are a tough lot. They are not friendly to newcomers. They are VERY competitive.

Regarding the cut, I've been to a lot of shows and I've never seen a poodle win in puppy cut, unless it was a puppy. According to breed standard all dogs that are 1 yr. or over have to have either continental or english saddle clip or modified continental, which is the continental without all the hair on top. I've never seen an adult poodle in anything other than continental. So, you can't choose the cut. If an adult dog goes in the ring with a puppy cut, they are disqualified.

Kim Hanson February 18th, 2007 05:21:00 PM

Ah, the poodle I saw must have come out of the class dogs then rather than the specials. It did look like a young dog. Too bad about the requirement for a continental clip. I think that those are simply awful and only show off the skills of the groomer.

(Speaking of which, it *can* get worse for the poor poodle -- I used to get dog grooming magazines as a result of placing some client advertising in them. Often the cover dog was some poor thing who had been the subject for a groomer competing in a contest. One stands out in memory: it was a poodle whose fur was groomed to look like a seascape -- complete with octopus and starfish and accompanying colorfully dyed fur. I think the dog wore a snorkel on it's head. Hard to explain.)

I agree that the friendliness level is very breed dependent. I lucked into a very owner-handler friendly breed.

Deanna February 18th, 2007 09:15:00 PM

I have nothing against Burmese Mountain Dogs. The ones that I mentioned behaved the way they did because the owner let them. She was one of these people that treated her dogs like children, which I personally don't agree with. I love, pamper and cherish my dogs, but they are still dogs. I am a Cesar Millan fan, Hi! One of our local trainers also uses the 'Pack Theory' . He's highly recommended and a great guy that has a pack of his own that consist of 3 German Shepards and two standard poodles.

As for showing, judging and the AKC, well that presents other issues. For the few people I knew that were in the business of showing dogs, all I heard was constant complaining, endless cat-fights and talk about being the "the know" of what judges favored which breeds, ect.

Have I gone out of my way to expose myself to the nicer side of the arena of dog showing? No, as it isn't something I'm interested in. My dogs are pets and treated as much. If they want to walk around knee deep in muck, I give them a bath and don't fret over how they may stain their coats. If their coats get stained, I figure out the source of the stain and know they'll shed out the "ruined" fur eventually.

My German Shepard has a weird habit of crinkling her ears. My husband and I fought about this odd habit of hers for years. He insisted that her ears must have been broken at one time, while I noticed that the only time she does it is when she's really happy. Any other time she just has big, bat-like German Shepard ears. Now when she does it when hubby is around, he gently holds her ears until she stops crinkling them or pats them flat against her head as it still bothers him even though we no longer fight about it. Note that I've had her ears checked, there is nothing wrong with them.

Would the AKC consider ear crinkling as an acceptable German Shepard trait? Probably not, but I didn't rescue her to make her a beauty queen or to be the best in show. She needed out of the situation she was in and we have been blessed every day with her presence since.

My terrier lets everybody know what he is by means of "talking back", testing people for weaknesses and can be very demanding when the mood strikes his fancy. I accept these things as he's just being what he is...a terrier.

I find it amusing when dog shows are on and terriers are running sideways of their handlers. I'm sure alot of dogs have lost because of this but they are what they are. Whoever dares to say there is such thing as the perfect terrier out there clearly has never owned one. Airdales are terriers but I don't count them as all of the ones I've been around are couch potatoes. On the flip side, I admit that hearing people say "Ewww...you actually own a terrier. Why?" annoys me. I own one because they are a challenge. They are a fun breed that comes in all shapes and sizes.

There are considerably more important dog issues going on than worrying about who knows who in a dog show arena. I give handlers alot of credit despite how poorly dressed they may be, but I do think people take the whole thing way too seriously sometimes. The dogs don't care if they bring home a ribbon or not and certainly don't carry around any resentment because the judge favored the Great Dane over the lumbering Bull Mastiff.

Perhaps if humans took a step back and saw dog showing for what it really is, there would be less cattiness within the "sport", but since that isn't likely to happen anytime soon ( of ever) I'll continue to roll my eyes at the people that consider losing at a dog show the end of the world as it isn't. The sun will continue to rise and set and life as we all know it will go on.

Do I consider these types of behaviors obnoxious? Yes and will continue to do so as it's uncalled for. If people are adult enough to purchase, train, feed, groom and transport their dogs from one place to another in the name of winning a prize, the least they could do is act like adults out of the ring as well.

Stacy February 18th, 2007 09:38:00 PM

As Deanna said, the AKC is a club of clubs, your dog may be registered with them, but you are not an individual memeber. They register dogs, hold various events for dogs within their registry, support health initiatives, and have a strong legislative group that fights for dog owners rights. I have never seen a Veterinary organization speaking up for pet owners rights. They (AKC) do not write breed standards, the parent club of a breed does that, if AKC tried to dictate about cropping & docking they would be overstepping.

I have been active in dog sports for over 15 years, having dogs that have "titled" in tracking, obedience, agiltity, field and conformation. Is there "cattiness" in dog sports? Naturally, you will see that in any competitive venue. Do I see a lot of it? No. Maybe it's the breed I am in, the group I hang out with, the region I live in, I don't know. I see people willing to help novices and good sportmanship. At the end of the day, it's another day at the dog show spent with friends who have similar interests. My dogs are pets, both are snoozing on the couch as I write this.

As far as clothing goes, there are some fashion disasters, the dogs are usually much better turned out than the handlers. But then, you see the fashion "don'ts" whether it is on a red carpet of a film premiere or the green carpet of Westminster.

Jan February 19th, 2007 11:59:00 AM

Oh I can't stand it:

It's BERNESE Mountain Dog. They're from Switzerland, not Burma.

Gina February 19th, 2007 07:25:00 PM

LOL, then I'll add mine....

It's German Shepherd, not Shepard.

Jan February 19th, 2007 07:53:00 PM

"I have never seen a Veterinary organization speaking up for pet owners rights. "

Jan, I think that's because the AKC is for pet owners whereas the AVMA is for the pets (and other animals.) You do make a fine point that was missing before your comment. Thanks.

And I can't agree enough with the fashion don'ts. Ever been to a vet convention? We are not known for our fashion sense.

And Gina: I haven't laughed that hard all day. Thanks.

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