Vetcetera It’s payback time! This goat-loving vet knows next to nothing about her charge

April 3rd, 2007  

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I think your goat is beautiful! She looks like a Nubian to me, but her ears are a little short - so she might be immature or crossed with something else.
Try this site:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/goats/
Good luck!

carmen April 3rd, 2007 04:27:00 AM

I'd love to have a goat, too, so will you keep sharing your experiences and your new-found knowledge? I'm mainly concerned about how my dogs would treat a goat, and whether one goat gets lonely by itself. One of my neighbors used to have a goat, and I swear that thing was so lonely it would follow me up and down the fence line every time I went to the back yard. Keep us posted,

Rita

Rita April 3rd, 2007 07:15:00 AM

LOL

I get the idea that you don't see many livestock type animals. At the hospital I worked for, one never knew what would be coming through the door. Chickens with ear infections, a calf that was having breathing problems shortly after being born, ect.

One time I was yelled at for making "pig skin" jokes as we had a baby pot bellied pig come in for something. He was cute! He was small enough to be carried around like a heavy football, so it only make sense to make jokes about it. I was promptly scolded for my actions with "Will you STOP IT! The owner is sitting out in the lobby!!" while there were snickers to be had from everybody else in the room.

There is something to be said about a vet that lacks a sense of humor. I got my revenge months later as that particukar vet was caught bad mouthing most of the staff to his his parents when he thought they were alone. I never repeated what he said, but he didn't yell at me anymore for pig jokes as I never said them loud enough for the client to hear me in the first place.

Stacy April 3rd, 2007 07:59:00 AM

Ususally ear tags are put on by farmers. TBNX is usually to identify the farm, and the number is usually the number of the goat on the farm. It may even be goat 38 of 2005. I don't know the first thing about looking up where this might be registered, but that's the best way to find out who used to own your goat. Maybe the vet to which you are going will have a clue.

Georg April 3rd, 2007 08:20:00 AM

...dang that pizza looks good! was that "goat" cheese? fav: mushroom, pepperoni, sausage, onion, xtra cheese, thin crust or deep pan. hecky darn I can feel the heartburn a startin' just thinking about it, not to mention the xtra 10# on my gut! "a moment on the lips, forever on the hips"

mmmpizza April 3rd, 2007 09:44:00 AM

OK so I called the local vet who does pigs and other backyard livestock but he immediately confessed that it sounded like I knew more about goats than I did. It's true that since I've long wanted to hobby farm them I get "Hobby Farm" magazine and read all the small runimant sections in our journals but I still don't know practical stuff beyond the newest pasture rotation schedules and semen storage options. I'm over-educated, apparently, but sorely under-experienced. I've been on darn near every goat website imaginable but they're all for the initiated. I keep asking questions and emailing experts but so far, no luck--no responses, that is. If anyone knows someone I can email I'd appreciate it. Or how 'boat a simple goat blog with a super-dedicated person willing to take me under their wing for a few emails? Still looking. in the meantime I think I'll have to learn how to dremel hooves all by myself.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 3rd, 2007 09:46:00 AM

For the record it's black olives with sausage and it's Miami's Best Pizza (their real name). My own home-made fave (in my barbecue) is with heirloom tomatoes, home-grown lemon basil and a slightly funky fontina cheese. Goat cheese is good, too. maybe I'll be making some soon...if she's a milker.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 3rd, 2007 09:51:00 AM

Rita: With goats and dogs, I've found you have to be more careful of the goat hurting the dog than visa-versa. When I was growing up we had pygmy (minature) goats and a large Siberian Husky dog. When all were full grown the dog was a little bigger than the goats, but the goats had no problem letting him know who was boss. We were warned that a good enough thwack from the goats' horns could even kill the dog if delivered in the right place.

Our last goat lived by herself for several years, and--although she liked her herd well enough when they were there--seemed to be almost glad for the peace and quiet. Of course, she had lots of human companionship so I think that might have helped.

Meryl April 3rd, 2007 10:01:00 AM

Dr. Patty - I trim my own horse's hooves (and a few others) -- it's not terribly difficult. I got fed up with the farriers available in my new location, found a clinic to attend and hit the ground running. If you can get someone to critique your work who knows what they are doing, that'd be best, even if it's just photos on the 'net.

I know of people who use grinders and dremels to trim hooves, but most of us use nippers and a rasp -- items that can be found at farm supply stores. (Surely there are livestock keepers on the outskirts of Miami.) Of course, horse hooves are a lot bigger than goat hooves. A dremel will likely work fine for you.

Good luck! Lots of people keep goats as companions for horses. From what I can tell, they are pretty easy to keep. Being prey animals, they are likely more nervous, like horses. This girl probably just needs to settle in.

Deanna April 3rd, 2007 10:41:00 AM

Deanna: I used to rasp my own pony's hooves (she couldn't be shod without anesthesia, freak that she was). That was back when my area was almost rural and I was only twelve. I'm liking the idea of a dremel for a goat since I'm good with it on dogs and since her beautifully cloven hooves are so small.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 3rd, 2007 01:08:00 PM

Deanna: And thanks for your reassurance on the settling in. She's really very flighty but she seems to love my son who (shockingly!) has enough patience to stand still for ten minutes at a time to feed her a small handful of sweet feed. I just sit by her pen (with a good book in the evenings) and offer her small treats (like pizza). She's so scared of my Frenchies, though, even though they're quite well-behaved around her. She also tries to butt the stray cats that occasionally slink by. So far I've gotten her calm for five minutes at a time but she still starts with even a small breeze. Poor thing.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 3rd, 2007 01:13:00 PM

I've just recently(last Nov) become involved with goats (2 pygmys) and I know what you mean about finding information. Frequently I feel like there's some great river of information out there and I'm paddling in circles in a backwater pool. And that's with the internet, books, and pestering my vets.

Luckily, my goats started out calmer than your Poppy. When she calms down and you're trimming feet or such, you can put pieces of pipe insulation(grey foam hollow stuff) on her horns so when she twists her head to see what's going on the foam will hit you and not a pointy horn. Goats are fun-just not dogs, or cats, or even a pet feral hog....

heather April 3rd, 2007 02:21:00 PM

If you go on a working stockdog email list (e.g., the Aussie-Herders list on Yahoo!groups), and ask for help on learning about goats (a lot of stockdog trainers have goats for herding), they can probably suggest some good links/sites for newbies. A lot of people buy the dog, then the farm, then the livestock, and need help caring for the livestock. Seems like 4-H lists or sites might have some useful links, too.

If you can catch your goat, you might want to put a dog collar on her to make holding her still a bit easier.

TTouch might help her calm down and settle in.

kabbage April 3rd, 2007 04:10:00 PM

It's very easy to trim goats hooves. You can buy them at any feed and tack store (they should know what you need - they are used for sheep also) and you can look at the hooves and see when they are getting too long and need a trim. They will "curl in" on the sides and become longer towards the front. You just trim off the curled in part and trim down the front.

Wendy Lutge April 3rd, 2007 06:55:00 PM

I used to just use a really sharp paring knife to trim my goats feet. Of course, slicing my fingers open one time when someone distracted me wasn't fun, but that was once in umpteen million times.

Goats are such fascinating creatures. They are funny, loving, attentive, and can just be tons of fun.

I hope you enjoy your baby. My first was definately my baby.

Della April 3rd, 2007 07:57:00 PM

How about an inexpensive little book? Ten bucks new, less used, at Amazon or free from a library: Your Goats by Gail Damerow. http://www.amazon.com/Your-Goats-Gail-Damerow/dp/0... It's for a juvenile audience, but I used to have this book as a someday-wannabe-goat-owner, and as I recall, it was great on the basics.

Pam April 3rd, 2007 10:35:00 PM

I highly recommend www.caprinesupply.com. Anyone owning or wanting a goat (or 2 or 3 ...) should have a copy of this book:

Goatkeeping 101, Second Edition by Caprine Supply
$14.70
This book, new in 1999, is published by Caprine Supply and has received outstanding reviews. It has articles for both beginning and experienced goatkeepers. Descriptions, illustrations, and breed standards for dairy, Boer, Pygmy, Nigerian Dwarf, Kinder, Kiko, "Fainting," Cashmere, and Pygora. goats Sections on "starting right," management and feeding, raising kids, housing and equipment, fencing, keeping goats healthly, milking, showing (dairy and Boer goats), working goats, goat products. Lots of illustrations, and two new drug charts for worming and coccidia, checklists, and resources section. A great 4-H guide. Index, Paperback, 256 pages.

Kimberly Landt April 4th, 2007 05:25:00 AM

I also have The New Goat Handbook and it's been pretty helpful. Problem is, I have trouble finding Florida-specific housing and keeping issues within its pages (or on the Web, for that matter).

Thanks for the other recommendations. I'm heading to Amazon.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 4th, 2007 10:00:00 AM

Dr. Patty,

First off, I was directed to this website from a cyber-friend at Motley Fool. She knew I was into goats for years; breeding, raising, showing, milking and on DHIA testing.

Wow, lets see; I'll try to answer some of your questions:
Breed: Your doe is a cross-bred. As another posted pointed out, the drooping ears are one of the hallmarks of a Nubian, however your gal has a relatively flat face from poll to nostril. The Nubian breed in profile has a distinctly roman nose. Also, the horn growth I see in the picture is a little "strong" for a full Nubian. My best guess would be about 1/4 Nubian and the rest? ... probably heavily French Alpine lines. By the way, in mixed dairy herds, a Nubian x Alpine is a reasonable cross because it give the higher butterfat content of the Nubian and the higher daily production of the Alpine breeds (French Alpine, Saanan, Toggenburg, etc.)

Eartag: That metal clip is the standard for State Inspections for TB and brucellocis (please pardon spelling) in dairy stock (both cattle & goats). You might try checking with the local Department of Agriculture in your area to see if they can ID that tag # .... it may even give you full info on the previous owner(s). While you are "exploring" the ears, look for a tatoo in one of the ears. If you cannot see it readily, backlight the ear with a flashlight and it may show up more clearly.

Part of me is thinking that this doe probably does not have a tatoo ... simply because she has horns. People breeding under the registrations for most dairy goat breeds would not allow horns to develop .... the animal cannot be shown with horns and horns are most readily prevented when a kid is newly born.

Horns on goats: Exceedingly dangerous, both for the goat (they get "stuck" in fences, hanging feeders, etc.) and for humans and other animals. Be extremely careful with a goat (especially a nervous, flighty goat) that has horns .... a sudden move could cost you a puncture, or (heaven forbid) a damaged eye. Unfortunately, once the horns have started to grow, removing them is very dangerous to the goat and I don't recommend it. (more on that later, if you want the info)

Age of your goat: Hard to tell, but I see at least a 2 year old's face (amount of horn also), could be 3 years old.

Tell ME some more about your goat: How tall is she at the withers? Approximately what does she weigh? Has she had kids? (check the udder ... just like a dog, if she's had kids, the mammary system will show more development even if she's been dry for a long while)

Okay, I have to go back to work now. I'll check back later and see if anything new had developed.

Donna

Donna April 4th, 2007 12:58:00 PM

Thank you! She's about 45-50 lbs (but noticeably underweight). She's never had kids from the look of her udder. She's probably 2.5 ft at the withers. Her medial hooves on the front are ski-sloping a bit (needs a trim for sure). I see a tattoo now but can't read it well. I'll check the USDA on the tag, first. Although she's flighty and nervous, she doesn't try to butt us at all--just the strays.

If I don't know what vax she's received, should I test her for CAE? My lab has a qualitative antibody test available. Should I vax for enterotoxemia (Clostridium)? Should I deworm her with fenbendazole first? Or should I just fecal test her and see exactly what she needs to be dewormed with?

She's so thin--I'm feeding a basic foragey hay (which she doesn't seem to like) with a pound of Goat Chow every day to bulk her up (she'd eat tons more if I let her). I also give her a couple of small handfuls of a horsey sweet feed a day to get her comfy around us. Is that OK?

She's never kidded and she doesn't look like she's in heat (although she seems to urinate frequently). Next Oct/Nov would it be OK to AI her with a Nubian buck? (Tell me I don't need a buck jar.) I'd love to milk her.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 4th, 2007 04:33:00 PM

Hi Doc.

Hummm. Approx. 30" at the withers but only 50 lbs. Yup, seriously underweight and a bit "short" for a Nubian She may be only 2 and have some growing to do, but she might also be genetically confused with some pigmy in the blend. (Heinz 57 isn't reserved for just dogs and cats)

Appropriate breeding weight should be about 75-80 lbs for a dairy breed. Most dairy bred kids can make that weight by their 9th month and be bred their first winter. If she is genetically smaller, she may still be breedable, just be careful to assess her carefully first.

Now, I know you've been reading like crazy to find out what to do, how to do, when to do ... but I'm going to make ONE reading suggestion and you can try it out online before you decide to buy: Google "Dairy Goat" and click into DAIRY GOAT JOURNAL. You can access a number of articles on line from magazines over the past 3 or so years. I highly recommend getting a subscription to it as it will answer a lot of your questions ... as well as a zillion you haven't thought of yet.

Worming - do a fecal test to see what she needs first. Be very careful to use wormers made specifically for goats/sheep. Horse wormer has killed more than one goat.

Nubians are more heat-resistant than the Alpine breeds, so she should do fine in South Florida. Since I'm in New England, I'm not going to be of much help there, tho. Likewise, I'm not up to date on what shots are needed (I haven't had goats in my life in about 10 years, tho' and I miss them tremendously). Again, I would defer to a good large animal vet practice for this info ... and read the Dairy Goat Journal.

As for how much to feed, my young stock got the equivalent of 1 cup of good quality goat pellet feed. (about 16% to 18% protein). There was an excellent article I saw when I browsed the back issues of DGJ online about the flora in a goat's gut and about not changing feeds too quickly since the resident flora take a while to adjust to changes in feeds .... etc. A long time ago I had a bad experience with feeding dairy sweet feed to my goats ... I found out too late that there was some mold in the feed (which I could not see) and it caused a fungus-borne anemia. From then on, I kept to pelletized goat feeds.

She shouldn't be in heat this time of year, nor should she come into heat before next fall. Goats' heat cycles are driven by the amount of sunlight, among other things, and they really don't start cycling until late fall or early winter. Even with 2 stud goats, I always kept a buck jar ... well, actually, it was a 2' length of flannel sheeting which had been worn like a collar on a very "fragrant" buck and then put into a ziplock bag. To test a goat, all I needed to do was open a little corner of that bag!!!! Yowza! If she was coming into heat, she'd start talking, and looking around, and the tail would wiggle and waggle a mile-a-minute. If you want to IA her, you will absolutely need a buck rag.

Good goat treats are strips of carrot, celery stalks, things like that.

Housing for goats in warm climates should provide shade and plenty of free-choice water. She/they shouldn't require the full stabling that we needed for our cold climate guys and gals. Goats are browsers and will happily consume trees and shrubs before they pay attention to any grasses. Be careful to note whether you have any poisonous plants in her penning areas. Poisonous plants in my area would consist of things like Rhododendron, Azalea, Mountain Laurel, wild cherry leaves, etc.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions .... I'll be back!

Donna

Donna April 4th, 2007 07:56:00 PM

Thank you, Donna!
Your info has been invaluable!--You have no idea. I'm doing the Dairy Goat Journal ASAP. She flicks her tail a lot and urinates a lot so I thought she might still be in heat (warmer weather might make for longer breeding periods?). But I wouldn't even think of getting her "in kid," as it were, until she's settled down somewhat. Thanks for the treat recs, too. You're a life-saver!

Dr. Patty Khuly April 4th, 2007 08:13:00 PM

I have 9 goats, and I have found this site to be the most informative.
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm . Your goat looks like a Nubian/Pygmy to me. Goats are herd animals, and you should get another. If you don't want smelly goats, then don't get a Billy Goat :o) I use Dectomectrin ( 1 cc/35 lbs) for worming. My goats LOVE peanut hay (right now it is in short supply around us) Good luck...I also live in Florida. My hubby built a nice "Goat house" on stilts which provides shade under it. We call it "The Butting Inn".

Julia J April 6th, 2007 10:21:00 PM

Julia j: Thanks so much! My boyfriend has designed a hutch (currently she has just a glorified tarp) that will be elevated on a porous, gravel bed on which i'll throw shavings. Does that sound OK?

Dr. Patty Khuly April 7th, 2007 09:52:00 AM

Julie J: Yes, goats do REALLY love peanut hay. Especially if you know someone who isn't all that good at getting the peanuts out.

My parents bought me a huge number of bales of peanut hay for the goats one year (we had 3 does, 3 wethers, and 1 buck, the does proceeded to have 7 kids between them in a 2 week period). Whenever we'd put out a new bale, you would see them pawing through it, finding the peanuts before they'd bother with the rest of the hay.

To others: Yes, they will prune your trees as high as they can get on their back legs. And my first doe also killed one of my mother's favorite rose bushes by eating it.

I really did love my goats, and if we'd been able to find a place we could afford with land when we bought this house, I'd probably have never gotten into cat rescue. Because goats were a first love. I love my cats lots and lots. But I want goats again eventually.

Della

Della April 9th, 2007 12:21:00 AM

I own a sheep and I might possibly order some semen for her. The reason for this is because there aren't any rams near my house. I live on the outskirts of the city and i can't find any local sheep or goat vets and i don't know how to inject the semen myself. Will you please tell me how or give me some expert advice on what to do.

P.S: I still have to wait untill 2008 to breed her.

Hollie May 6th, 2007 01:03:00 AM

The Tennessee meat goat site (just google it) has a lot of good info too. I would not just deworm her w/o a fecal. It might not be effective. Look up Famacha for an interesting take on goat deworming. As far as I understand worms are species specific so if you don't have other goats and she has plenty of room to browse you shouldn't have to deworm her much.
Mine love black oil sunflower seeds as a treat and I add them to thier diet. If she's dandruffy that's a sign of not enough fat in the diet and the sunflower seeds can help that too.
Have fun!
Cara

Cara May 10th, 2007 03:21:00 PM

Hey! your goat is gorgeous. I have a Nubian, and she is definitely not a Nubian. At least not only a Nubian. They have the big Roman nose that bows out from their face like a banana. If you go to the website i've attached, that is my farm blog and I have lots of pictures of my goats on there. I have Nigerian Dwarves, Nubian, and Angora. If I had to guess, I'd say your goat is a Spanish goat, which is a meat breed, and generally just your every day average "goat."
How'd you get her?

Kayte January 18th, 2008 11:59:00 PM

I didn' t read all of the blogs so I am not sure that your questions were answered. I am a licensed vet tech who has raised all sorts of goats and currently raise dairy goats for milk and cheese production. I think your goat is likely a Nubian/ Alpine mix or Boer/Alpine mix with a little heavy on the Alpine side. That is dependant on her size however. Her horns are reminiscent of Boer goat horns. As far as the tag in her ear, I am from Oregon and that appears to be a Scrapies tag. The numbers do refer to the farm she originated from but not her age. Scrapies tags are used in sheep as well and primarily for those intended for meat. Which again points her towards a Boer mix. These tags must be placed whenever an animal leaves a production farm. I had them when I raised sheep. I hope this helps :)

goat girl March 9th, 2008 03:18:00 AM

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