Vet P.O.V. Declining applications at vet schools: What...or whom...is to blame?

July 18th, 2007  

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And yet there's a push to create new vet schools...

I wonder about the feminization of your profession a lot. I know that 8.3 e13 years ago when I was a squirt, my family vet told me it was a hard, dirty, physically unforgiving business that most girls aren't suited for*. I still believe that to be true. Yet only a decade later the feminization of vet schools was well underway, and by now there's a well-trodden "mommy track". Despite recent advances, paychecks have lost ground compared to human medicine and have even lost ground compared to mommy track specialties within human medicine.

Part-time practice, functional (if not stated) "early retirement" to stay home with the kids, and increasing numbers of new graduates saying their career ambition is to stay an associate, not an owner are all things you can see in recent surveys (though are the surveys well done?) It's hard to guess what it all means for the future. I have a feeling as competition and prestige goes down, fewer and fewer people who have the temperament to succeed as owners will go to school. Maybe all that means is... hellllo, Banfield!



*of course, even fewer people, and far fewer women, are suited to becoming Things. The training, focus, drive, practice, hours of thumb wrestling, subtle ear wiggling and je ne sais quoi involved in Doing Anything Anything Anything are far beyond the capacity of most. Think of it as joining the Navy Seals, then specializing in Inanity.

Thing One July 18th, 2007 07:40:00 PM

I am shocked, SHOCKED that vets make only 50K a year. That's wrong - professionals should be paid as such, and I have always assumed that I was doing just that when I took my dogs to visit our vet. At $45 for a 10 minute visit with the vet, I just assumed that their income would be comparable to that of any other professional. What a revelation.

Sara July 18th, 2007 07:52:00 PM

Quite frankly, after all I went through to get my seat at a veterinary school while watching my friends waltz into graduate programs, law schools, and even medical schools, my reaction to declining applicant pools is "wahoo!"

The declining numbers of large animal vets was a question I was asked at my interview. I really think it has more to do with the declining rural population than anything else. I don't care how much money I make, I really don't. But cows and sheep bore me to death, and I glaze over during the large animal portions of my classes (unless it's horses). Why? I didn't grow up on a farm. The whole thing is alien to me. Also, even if I did gain an interest, I'd feel like an idiot all the time. There's so much you just simply pick up from being around the farm that can't be taught in a classroom, and my "city mouse" status would flash immediately in blinking red lights no matter how interested I was - and that's intimidating. It has nothing to do with me being female - I have no problems sticking my arm up the butt of anything.

I've also heard from some people at school that the dwindling supply of large animal vets is a myth. Farming is so mechanized and centralized now, all you need is one vet to serve a million pigs. A friend of mine is interested in swine medicine, and he's heard very conflicting information on how tough or easy it will be for him to get a job. On the other hand, I'm in a summer research program, and everyone is wringing their hands and dangling money and prestige to get us to do research. Forget the large animals, this is where the shortage is, they say. Do I want to do research? Sadly, no. I like it ok in principle, but lab work bores me and I hate being mean to mice. People who want to do research go straight for the PhD where they get paid, without a vet school detour to pick up some loans. If the vet field wants researchers, we need to nab them while they're seniors in college thinking about graduate school, not ask them to go to more school in the middle of their vet education.

I want to be a zoo vet myself, and I've gotten - guess what- conflicting information on how hard or easy it is to get a job. Everything from "five open jobs in the country" to "you can get a job anywhere, zoos always need vets and there's so much turnover because of the politics". The latter was followed by "but really, please do research!" I have no idea where most of this information is coming from. All I know is if I want a small animal general practice job, I can have it. I've yet to hear of a vet school grad complain they couldn't find a job. The graduating class's "jobs map" in the hall was full by March, and I had a suspicion that the people who didn't put up pins didn't do so because they were too lazy, not because they didn't have jobs. So I'm not too worried yet.

Julia July 18th, 2007 08:02:00 PM

Oh, and - perhaps it is different at other schools, but mine had record apps in the year I got in. 100+ apps for 108 seats. The school that waitlisted me had almost 800 apps for 80 seats. Perhaps they're lying in those congrats letters, but I'm wondering which schools are dragging down the average.

Julia July 18th, 2007 08:05:00 PM

Er, that's 1,000+. I'll stop leaving comments now.

Julia July 18th, 2007 08:06:00 PM

I start vet school next month--I'm not sure exactly what, if anything, I want to specialize in, but it certainly won't be large animal medicine (unless it's equine practice).

1. Food animal medicine looks boring. I can deal with the fact that the animal is destined for the dinner plate, but any animal with a serious health problem is likely to just be put down. Why spend extra resources making it well? Cows don't get chemo. We're making all these advances in veterinary medicine, but the food animal vet won't get to play with many of the new toys.

2. Antibiotic resistance scares me. I don't want to be part of an industry that contributes to it. Let's face it, agribusiness in general is kind of frightening. Going into public health would be very interesting, I might even be able to make a difference there--but getting a PhD. in addition to the DVM would mean taking out even more loans.

3. Food animals live in rural areas. Most rural areas lack such things as museums and tasty ethnic restaurants, but have an abundance of racist, homophobic pro-lifers (I know this because I grew up in a rural area). Even if I found rural life quaint and appealing, I wouldn't want to spend half the day driving around from farm to farm.

4. I don't expect to get rich, but I want to be able to eat after paying my monthly school loan bill. Dr. Khuly already pointed out the lack of economic incentive in food animal medicine.

It irks me that Hammer implies women prefer working with puppies and kittens and bunny rabbits (he didn't say it like that, but he might as well have). Obviously the male population isn't clamoring to work with mega-herds of livestock either.

abc July 18th, 2007 08:22:00 PM

abc,

I encourage you to take another look at food animal medicine. It's interesting, but it's interesting at a whole different scope and scale than companion animal medicine. You'd be working with great complex systems-- the health of the herd, the production of the dairy, etc. It gives you access to understanding health and disease in a whole different way.

Speaking of herds, try to look at what Dr. Hammer said this way: once upon a time, there would have been 90 male butts and 10 female in the room. Now that's inverted. If 10% of men but only 0.5% of women (numbers I pulled out of the air just now) are drawn to food animal work, there's a great big problem now that didn't exist a generation ago. Without great big honking incentives (like, say, the one that Congress declined to put into place recently), there's not much hope that any individual woman who is not already drawn to food animals will suddenly decide she needs to have a goat in her shower.

Or not. Apparently goats--especially shower-invading goats-- grow on a person. But I think that's just a goat thing, and doesn't extend to wanting cows, sheep, ostriches, or pigs invading one's personal life.

Thing One July 18th, 2007 08:53:00 PM

You're absolutely right! It's often about money. As a med tech I make at least, if not more, than what the average vet makes getting out of school...I keep considering reapplying but the thought of being $100,000 or more in debt is a frightening prospect. Right now my debt is very managable and I'm not even accounting for the lost wages I'd face barely working for four years. They need to lower tuition. Vets don't earn what MDs do, so it is ridiculous that vet students pay just as much for vet school. People go into veterinary medicine because they love it, not because they want to get rich, which is often not the case in human medicine. This is one of the reasons I'm so fond of those involved in the profession and why these people provide such high quality care to our pets day in and day out. Being rich isn't on my list of goals, but either is being poor because I'm buried by school loans.

Sarah July 18th, 2007 10:23:00 PM

I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in as well - I've still got a year or two before I can even apply to veterinary school. I work for Banfield with a veterinarian who graduated just two years ago. He certainly doesn't love it or find it very fulfilling (his words, not mine) - he grew up on a farm, baling hay, and did his internship in equine medicine. His reasons for staying? He's got a very respectable salary for just entering his field, a 40-hr. work week, full benefits, 401 (k), etc., and all w/out the hassle of actually having to manage a practice...plus a new baby and crazy amounts of student debt. He would love to go back to large animal...but it's just not economically feasible for him. That's a shame, too, given his love of all things equine/bovine, but it's reality. I think I'll probably end up in the same situation - my true interests lie in feline medicine, but I'm almost certain I'll end up working for a corporate practice just to get my loans paid down. Even if I really liked large animal (and who knows - I might end up loving it), I simply can't fathom going through several more years of school to work longer hours w/less pay than my small animal peers. That's pretty much the impression I've been given - if you want to be able to pay your bills after school, it's either small animal (corporate's even better) or equine...and only if you're really good at the equine.

anna July 18th, 2007 11:13:00 PM

When I was contemplating a career more than 35 years ago, veterinary medicine was my first choice, and living in rural PA, I had thoughts of a combined large/small-animal practice. But those were the days of the 90/10 male/female ratios, and females had to be the creme de la creme to even be considered. My guidance counselors laughed me out of their offices; at 5'1" and 100 lbs.(at age 17, I'm certainly not that now--LOL), it simply wasn't a "suitable" choice. I worked for and with our family vet for 2 summers to be sure if that was indeed what I wanted. He was the quintessential country vet; a James Herriot-type who had a rural office for small-animal practice, and routinely made house-and farm-calls for horses and farm animals. In addition to doing the usual small-animal office work I assisted with calvings and foalings, helped with vaccinations and herd TB testing, got bounced around on the end of a halter while he sutured the occasional laceration on less-than-cooperative horses. And I loved every minute off it!! But in the end, I was still unable to make the cut at the schools I applied to.
And so I went on to Plan B, and entered nursing, which I admit, though not my first choice, pays the bills. I suppose I could still try again, but at my age, the thought of amassing huge amounts of debt is daunting, especially when I would earn less as a newly-graduated vet than I currently do. And as I age, certain health issues would probably preclude me from the large-animal work that I always loved.
So unless I manage to win the lottery and finances are no longer an issue, I will continue in my current career until retirement, and continue to get my animal "fix" by volunteering in shelters in whatever capacity I can that will give me contact with animals. And of course, keeping an ample supply of my own animals as well.

Shellie July 18th, 2007 11:52:00 PM

Thing One--

I'm actually rather fond of goats, pigs, sheep, etc. - I grew up with them. But let's face it, the farm of today is drastically different from what it was just a few decades ago. And sure, herd dynamics is an interesting subject, but can you really call the groups of animals at a farm today a herd? "Megaherd" or something to that effect would be more accurate. Farms are businesses concerned with the bottom line. I want to practice good medicine, not be beholden to a corporation's profit margin.

It's obviously a tremendously important field - this is our food we're talking about. But currently the focus is still on how to maximize profits by cramming them closer together, giving them drugs to speed up their growth, etc. Efficiency. I'm all for efficiency, but not at the expense of animal welfare and food safety.

It's becoming glaringly obvious that our food safety system is a mess. You'd think there'd be heaps of funding to combat the threats of agroterrorism and zoonoses, but that isn't the case. If there were, and I could do a DVM/PhD or MPH on the cheap, I might jump in on that. It would be meaningful. But as things are now.... No thanks.

abc July 19th, 2007 12:37:00 AM

abc,

You're still young, spry, and relatively un-jaded. Have you thought about going over to your new campus (or its associated medical center, if it's got one) and see if anyone'd be interested in helping you put together a DVM/PhD (if you're not at an institution that has built one) or an MPH? Trying to build your own PhD would take a major "type A" kind of drive, but spacing out the coursework and research for an MPH over 4 years wouldn't be too horribly terrible, compared to, say, coating yourself with breadcrumbs and diving into a river full of hungry nearsighted guppies.

(Of course there are vet school based MPHs, but it doesn't sound like you're going to one where that's an obvious pathway.)

Thing One July 19th, 2007 08:27:00 AM

Vets remind me of Architects.

We both have gone into a profession that has an intangible quality that bring a lot of satisfaction. However, we accrue insane amounts of student loans (avg. architect = $150K) and graduate making peanuts (avg. architect = $40K) across the board. Architecture is a profession of passion and love, and every day I am thankful that I am not cooped up with a bunch of testosterone Type-A's pouring over Corporate Mergers and Acquisitions. No amount of money could make me do that, I'd rather collect garbage. I design homes for CEO-types, and I see their lifestyle and values and kids and, from where I sit, I would not trade places with any of them. It is FASCINATING to study what people really think they NEED. Yes, the rich get richer and poor get poorer, but there's something to be said for just being happy in life. Would I like my student loans paid off? Sure! How's about that down payment on a modest dwelling that seems to continually escape us? Sure! But I have my health and happiness, not to mention my dog, and am thankful every day for my life. We are comfortable, we live modestly and I'm OK with that.

Really, I think that's all you can ask for at the end of the day.

Amy in Cambridge July 19th, 2007 08:46:00 AM

First of all, goats rock. In addition to my clowder of four cats, I live on a small farm with two dogs, 50 chickens, two geese and a herd of a dozen or so goats. Even in the farm country of rural Maine, we've had a hard time finding a vet who deals with "large" animals like goats. We're lucky that our herd is healthy and that we can do a lot of our own worming, birthing and 'first aid' on our goats, but it'd be grand if there were more vets who were into taking care of livestock.

I write a cat advice column, and every once in a while, I get a letter from a reader saying "Something's wrong with my cat, he looks really sick, but I don't want to go to the vet because it's so expensive. What do I do?" After the steam stops curling out from my ears at the inherent SPOness of this question, my answer is, "Go to the vet. If it was your human kid having those symptoms, what would you do? Like your kid, your cat is counting on you to provide for his health care needs because he can't do it on his own."

I tell people who lament about the cost of veterinary care that vets pay the same amount for their education as MDs and earn less than half as much as a newly minted MD. Also, a trip to the vet and any medications or surgery your animal needs costs less than a tenth what the same treatment would cost for a human being who had no health insurance coverage.

JaneA July 19th, 2007 09:23:00 AM

Amy: I understand your predicament. My parents are both architects so I've always been aware of that profession's economic shortcomings. It's only the big city, big-on-sales, pro-development architects that make the big-time. But my parents are happy, I think, small projects and restorations and the occasional school or municipal building. Keep your ideals, live small and be happy.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 19th, 2007 09:32:00 AM

Sara: $40-$50K is the average starting salary. It moves up very slowly unless practice ownership is in the cards (as Thing One pointed out). I make about double that now that I've been out of school 12 years and I've been told I'm very lucky. With one kid and a Miami mortgage (sky high insurance and property taxes) and still about $40 K left on my loans, it's never enough. Week to week, baby.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 19th, 2007 09:36:00 AM

It's durn difficult to find a large animal vet in the Great Lakes Region. One of the vets who calls on my boarding barn takes students from Michigan State and we treat each and every one of them like kings and queens, coaxing and cajoling each to go into large animal medicine. There are wrinkled noses nearly every time. The owner of that practice graduated from vet school in the 70's and we're not expecting him to hang around forever.

I think the biggest disincentive to practicing on large animal practice is the probability of getting hurt. A young vet I know had her knee severely injured treating a horse.

I'm also (pleasantly) surprised on a regular basis that equine vet services cost considerably less than small animal vets. They can only charge what the market will bear, but if all of us aren't willing to pay more, they'll simply disappear (like farriers have).

Deanna July 19th, 2007 09:41:00 AM

To the vets vet students and prospective or would-be vets: It's great to want to go into small animal medicine--no need for explanations. We all have our reasons and I've enjoyed hearing yours. And I agree with you--while herd health is fun and exciting to me (as is public health), the jobs are just not where I need them to be. While I'd be willing to live rural (although only near a University town where the morays are more likely to reflect my own), my family isn't there. Lifestyle decisions will ulimately take precedence--and the economics are only one part of that decision. If we don't live rural, there have to be some incentives to take these jobs, just as there are incentives for human docs to do small town service. It's incredible to me that this discussion has been taking place for years in vet medicine and that still there are no incentives for practicing medicine in areas where shortages exist. Research vets get tuition reimbursement (a full ride at my school) but large animal vets don't get that luxury. If we want and need these vets we should pay for them.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 19th, 2007 10:34:00 AM

Finding a goat vet in greater Miami is impossible--they don't exist. So I have to order my own vaccines, read up on my small ruminant medicine and deworm and hoof trim all on my own. I'm hoping all this newly rediscovered knowledge will serve me well in years to come--but I certainly don't expect to be compensated well for it. Some things are best chalked up to a labor of love, as Amy pointed out.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 19th, 2007 11:30:00 AM

Yay Dr. Patty!
I agree, living small is where it's at. I'm pretty sure not a day goes by that I am not happy and content. I live in a very expensive area, but it's totally accessible by walking and bikes and the culture is top-notch (in a prickly, Yankee sort of way). Occassionaly I will get down, that all my friends/family married well or are OK in their own earnings, but I quickly snap out of it! Lol......almost everyone is interested in what I do (I'm never short on insane stories) and my profession coincides nicely with my hobbies (knitting, sewing, wood working, making of things....). It's funny, I always think if I could change professions I would be a Vet.......so, maybe the jet setting life is just not in the cards for me!

Amy in Cambridge July 19th, 2007 03:00:00 PM

I have to say - I've been re-reading all of the James Herriot books and it amazes me that while so much seems to have changed in the vet profession, some things haven't...remember how he talks his daughter out of being a large-animal vet when her love for it is obvious?! He worries that she is too "frail" and couldn't handle the animals and situations. Herriot talks about the pitiful pay vs. the always on-call hours...but even for all his negatives, he loves it.

His talk of sitting on the side of the road overlooking the Dales makes me want to get out of my legal office world, out of Kansas and go test some swine for TB. Instead, I'll go home and play "gimme" with my pups. Almost as good.

kelli July 19th, 2007 03:39:00 PM

It's funny how when applications for a specific major start dwindling the "feminization" of that field is always to blame. I majored in journalism and that was one of the most prominent arguments to justify why interest in that area was dwindling: Too many women are becoming journalists...what a load!

Ana July 19th, 2007 03:53:00 PM

Do all you vets think that declining apps could make acceptance to vet schools easier for those wanting to go into large animal medicine? I am majoring in Natural Science and still weighing my options on what the next step should be. I've been told by many to write off vet school all together because it is so difficult to get into. Of course, none of these people were actually vets so I'd love to hear what you guys think :)

Nicole July 19th, 2007 04:50:00 PM

I was surprised to hear that applications are down overall, as at the U of MN (where I'm a soon-to-be second year) they are still getting 900-1000 applicants for 90 seats...

I would agree that financial constraints are responsible for keeping many people away, but I have to admire those who are willing to take on a heavy debt load when vet med is their second or third career. I have several older classmates who expect to die with student loans unpaid. Sad, but a serious mark of dedication to the profession.

Megan July 19th, 2007 06:07:00 PM

Nicole: Apply away! I always hated being told I'd never get into vet school. It's exactly that kind of talk that makes people like us shy away from what we love. Accept the challenge and apply!

Dr. Patty Khuly July 20th, 2007 05:18:00 PM

I wonder if its not that people have concluded they aren't likely to get into vet school, so why waste the application fees?
I'm going into my second year of vet school (of 5, in the UK, thank you natural disasters) and while I'm not commited to small animal med, I am leaning towards it with some dabbling in large to keep my hand in, so to speak. While you have the risk of bites, scratches, etc with small animals, your risk of major, death type injuries is less. Not to mention the money. And I'ma a suburban/urban kid- I din't realize jersey cows were small cows until I started school. I've worked in a small animal hospital for 4 years, so there is definitaly a stick with what you know component. But I do want to keep sheep one day (a small breeding flock, to sell replacement ewes, not lamb!).

Alli July 21st, 2007 12:13:00 AM

Alli:I love your small ruminant bent. But consider that selling off the baby boys to a slaughterhouse you *personally* select is an excellent way to ensure that more animals are treated humanely whe they enter our food supply. I know it seems sad to send the babies for slaughter but not every male is cut out for breeding and people will always want to eat lamb.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 21st, 2007 10:00:00 AM

Someone posted these numbers of applicants per year on Student Doctor Network, taken off the AAVMC website:

2004- 4453
2005- 4581
2006- 5194
2007- 5740

Sure doesn't look like numbers are going down...?

Megan July 23rd, 2007 11:43:00 AM

Megan: Technically, applications aren't down. They are, however, *flat* relative to the US population. I've been looking into this a little more carefully since listening to this interview and have concluded that competition may not be so much on the decline to the tune they say it is. I'm working on trying to sort this one out for us. Stay tuned.

Dr. Patty Khuly July 24th, 2007 09:35:00 AM

I've never really looked at this way. Does a field need to turn away ten applicants per one accepted, rather than just a few, to be considered thriving? Its success is measured by its rate of rejection? I can see how that could be discouraging.

I used to want to be a vet (I dreamt for a while of neurology, specifically relating to seizures and rage syndrome in dogs), but decided on another major. Now, after the first go-round at college, with about 20K of debt and making under that much a year, I can't see how I could ever go back to school. It's not economically feasible. Besides, I'd love to do cats and dogs which means the odds are I'd be turned down anyway. And who wants to work in a field which is bristling at the women in it? Women in vet med are being blamed for paychecks and ambition going down? I don't need much more discouragement here. All they're missing is a sign on the door.

Agnes August 1st, 2007 12:06:00 PM

I was actually really surprised listening to that story that they didn't at all broach the issue of animal welfare as it relates to our food supply. I'm not a vet and I don't know any vets, but my guess is that most people go in to veterinary science because they want to help animals. Modern animal husbandry is about as far away from that ideal as you could possibly get. Even if you are fine with the animals you are treating winding up as food, how could anyone with a conscience be fine with how 90% of them are currently being raised? I'd guess that animals being treated as widgets is probably not really up most vet students' allies.

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