Vetcetera Do good dogs dream of nefarious sheep?

August 18th, 2007  

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Without having a ton of background info:

My suggestion, as a trainer, is to give him his own sleep area for awhile to see if that has any effect. To be in charge and acting protective (if that is what he is actually doing) is very stressful for dogs. Especially if he feels he needs to be on alert coming out of a sound sleep. It may not be classic redirected aggression per say, but if he is in that between world of sleep and awake he might make a snap wrong reactionary decision if he is seriously stressed.

He could also be acting possessive of you as well. Not the same as protective, and much more common. (protection aludes to a threat being imminent) If he is being possessive of you then you definalty need to nip it in the bud now. Good leadership is important. Making him earn his food and treats for awhile, practicing obedience (it doesn't have to be a ton, just basics regularly) and definatly not letting him sleep with you until he learns you are the clear leader of your pack.

A nice crate with a soft bed and chew toys next to yours is a good way to give him his own protected space. Being in that den like environment might help him feel less anxious when he wakes up on alert. Of course if he hasn't been crated before there may be some training over time needed for that. (I love using stuffed kongs EVERY time they are crated to teach it is a great place to be.) My frenchie loves hers.

Another option is a bed on the floor of your room and not being allowed on the bed with you. (If he can jump up on his own teach him he can't come up unless you give him a specific command like Up!) Simply keep removing him if he jumps up otherwise. Or use an x-pen or babygates to give him his own area.

I might also add some rescue remedy to his drinking water or use a DAP diffuser in the bedroom to see if that helps his sleep be more restful in general.

If your interested in pet behavior a really great book for your practice to have on hand is "Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals" by Karen Overall. It includes handouts for clients and info on medications used in treating behavior issues. It also covers cats and dogs and is written for vets and trainers/behaviorists. It is an excellent resource on behavior topics.

Good luck!

Marie August 18th, 2007 11:50:00 AM

Taz is prone to growling in his sleep, but he sleeps in a crate so it's not a big deal. Angel used to growl in her sleep as well, but if she got too loud, I would speak loud enough just to wake her up and she'd settle down and wouldn't do it again for the rest of the night.

If you haven't neutered him for health reason and feel as though neutering him at this point would do more harm than good, then don't do it until you're ready. In the meantime, if it were me, I'd crate him at night. If you cannot sleep because your dog is doing something that makes you nervous, then you need to do something about it even if he is only 21 pounds.

You didn't mention this so I'm assuming it's not a problem, but is he showing any type of aggression during the day? Puppies like to play rough and do their thing, but beyond the puppy p-- and vinegar, is acting out otherwise?

Stacy August 18th, 2007 04:43:00 PM

I will also agree that crating this boy - in your bedroom - would be a great idea. I don't think it would help this at all to castrate him - this really isn't typical aggression. And in my experience, castration really doesn't affect aggressive behavior much except for dog-on-dog aggression within the family. I'm assuming that when he does this, as he "wakes up" and you talk to him he comes out of it? Probably he's just waking up in a state of fear/high alert and blindly reacting to that.
I don't want to alarm you, but I've also seen this sort of thing during the post-ictal (post seizure) phase. Dogs recovering from even a mild seisure - or from a focal or partial seizure - often behave bizarrely for a short time. I hope that's not it!!

Barb August 18th, 2007 07:27:00 PM

Vincent loves his crate so I'll get him back to that. He's very dominant, especially with respect to other dogs--but never with me. And he's never-ever aggressive otherwise except in the occasional, dog-related "that's my person" way.

I have Dr. Overall's book and it happens to be on my bedside table right now. She was one of my profs at school and her mantra was: "nothing in life is free." I've been lazy about implementing this with Vincent so now I'll have to backtrack and reorganize him.

Thanks for all your responses so far (and I'll take more if you hve them).

Dr. Patty Khuly August 19th, 2007 07:22:00 AM

Good luck!

I've always been one to believe that if you cannot trust your dog, who can you trust?

I can't tell you what to do, but I'd work on the dominate thing as well. Dogs that are loved and cared for by their humans should be allowed to protect them when they are threatened. However, if they are being a bully for no other reason than the fact that they can be, that to me anyway is crossing the line. If there is nothing going on, there is no reason to be possesive or bully-ish.

Stacy August 19th, 2007 08:55:00 AM

I agree with crating the dog at night (in your room so he doesn't feel suddenly isolated), and that neutering probably won't have much benefit in changing the behavior.

I believe that dogs dream and that some suffer sleep disorders. Don't ask me to point you to any studies, though... :-) I've had dogs that seem to have nightmares and will wake up in attack mode. Usually this is a passing phase. It's possible that your dog is stressy about something. Has anything in his environment changed?

I would try a few things - increasing his exercise, feeding him farther away from bedtime, giving him a job to do - something to keep his mind occupied. It may help, it may not. At 11 months, they're going through a lot of physical and mental changes and hormones are raging - as a menopausal old woman myself, I can tell you from experience that hormones can do crazy things to one's sleep patterns. This may pass, but for now, I'd just crate him at night for his and your safety. That old adage, "Let sleeping dogs lie," was invented for a reason - dogs waking up in alert or aggressive states of mind is quite common. This may pass, and if so, he can regain his place at your side at bedtime. But for now, better safe than sorry.

JMHO....

Tracy D August 19th, 2007 10:14:00 AM

Dr. K,

I would love to hear more about the later neutering to help the airway thing you mentioned. Is this something all bully breeds should do? Wait on altering? Or is this specific just to your Vincent.

I plan on getting a pug or maybe another frenchie in the future-wondering if the later altering would help.

Good luck with the boy. That is awesome you got to have KO as a professor. I am way jealous.

Marie August 19th, 2007 10:18:00 AM

Ah, adolescent boy-dog (yes, redundant) hormones....

Crate at night and make him work for everything (sit or down to eat, must be last through doors, must sit or down or something to earn your attention, etc.). Intact males are a PITA. The most wonderful dog in the world is a neutered male, IMO. But I understand your reasons for keeping him intact.

As far as those who think neutering won't have any behavioral effect.... huh? Says the person who owns a former stray who was going to be put down due to fighting with other dogs. (Very sad shelter situation -- communal pens!) The hormonally charged actions went slowly bye-bye in the months post surgery.

I'm trying to resist saying anything about little dogs who aren't trained. Your comment about "if he were a Rottie" is very revealing.

Deanna August 19th, 2007 07:29:00 PM

Well, I'm not a trainer....nor do I play one on TV. But I have a dog. And the dreaming-waking-to-agression may not bother you, what if someone was babysitting your dogs and this happened? I know it would scare the crap out of me! And then you'd have a scared dog sitter and crap in your bed, and that's not good. I say behavior is behavior, regardless of dog breed/size. I think small dogs only buy you a little time to correct the problem with a little less anxiety (because most people aren't scared of tiny dogs). Unfortunately, not everyone believes this, thus the bad rap that small dogs get on behavior.

That being said, I have a funny pi$$ and vinegar story (tryin got bring a little levity here): I worked with a French guy for a few years and once I used the phase, while referring to our boss, 'gosh, he's full of pi$$ and viegar today".....and after some explanation the French guy though that was the best phrase he'd ever heard. So, he waited and waited forright time to use this new phrase and one day when my boss was in a bad mood he exclaimed *in thick French accent* "Hey Aaamy, hee ees fuullll auf PEEESYVEENEGAAR today, non?".....Lol.....pi$$yvinegar! Lol....So, now that is how I say it because it made me laugh so hard.

In conclusion, if it were me I would 'reboot' and go back to the crate to get him strightened out. It will stink not having his cozy company at night, but hopefully it wont be for too long!

Amy in Cambridge August 20th, 2007 08:41:00 AM

We spent all day yesterday "rebooting." The crate is back in action. I ran him as hard as anyone should push a Frenchie on a sunny August day in Miami (several times to counter the heat), let him play with Poppoy (the goat) and secured an additional playdate with my mom's dogs. He slept like a baby. "Sit, stay, come" was heard all over the house all day and my son even got a big dose of the "rebooting," too (it seemed to be working when I dropped him off at his first day of school this AM). Maybe we al needed some retooling. Thanks for your help.

On the neutering thing: In this case it's a Vincent-specific decision. The development of his hard palate post-surgery is uppermost in my mind. There's no evidence that soft palates do better or worse with neutering at six months. And if any of my clients came in with the story I just told you, you can be sure I'd be documenting in my paperwork that I recommended neutering for the aggression. No, I'm not two-faced. I'd respect their decision if they chose not to neuter for the palate issue (or any other) but I'd sure cover my backside in case there was a serious aggressive event in the middle of the night.

As to the issue of small and big dogs and slack obedience training: What can I say? I agree with you. Smaller dogs have a tendency to be brattier for that very reason. I'm back on track, though. Thanks for your honesty.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 20th, 2007 09:34:00 AM

The basset kicks his paws in his sleep. He also snores. When he kicks his paws, he scratches the furniture he wedges himself between (my dresser and headboard) which sounds just like when he scratches at the door, which he does when he wants Out Now, Gotta Pee! So scratching wakes me and shoves me out of bed. The snores I sometimes resort to ear plugs for, depending if the husband on the other side of me is snoring in disharmony or not. Stereo snoring + ear plugs = good night's sleep, except when I wake up to a wet floor because I didn't hear the scratching. My other solution has been to pad the dresser front and headboard on that side. Trimming his nails doesn't help, because they still scratch even when short.

As for your own situation, I don't know.

Georg August 20th, 2007 10:47:00 AM

Oh, Dr. Patty! I didn't mean to imply that Vincent wasn't well behaved or you were doing a bad job.....I was referring more to my fellow Chihuahua owners. If I had a nickel for every adult/child that petted my Lottie and exclaimed 'she's so sweet. Normally I hate Chihuahuas because they snap and yap....blah blah blah' - I would retire a millionaire! I am guilty of it as well, sometimes she does things that crack me up, and then I think 'if she were a Rottie, that would SO not be funny!" but I have to remain vigilant, otherwise it's a slippery slope. Lucky for me she in an angel, so we haven't really had issues. I'm sorry I implied any disapproval. I am never one to judge and we all go through rebooting with ourselves and our pets.

Ok, now I feel bad. SO, to make it up to you I found this video. You must watch it completely because it's too funny. Make sure you watch it to the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeiHhmfEcOs

Amy in Cambridge August 21st, 2007 12:53:00 PM

Amy: That is hysterical! I'm an art collector (emerging artists cuz I can't afford much else!) and I almost bought a piece similar to this where a kitten keeps finishing a bowl of milk--it was a continuous loop and it was just as fabulous. Thanks for the tip!

Dr. Patty Khuly August 22nd, 2007 08:18:00 PM

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