Vet School 101 They Eat What We Are: NYT Magazine ventures into nutrition and pet food (Part 1: A summary)

September 7th, 2007  

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Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well. I was wondering if something happened when you didn't post when you usually do. Take care of yourself.

Linda H September 7th, 2007 05:23:00 PM

Hope you're feeling better soon! And I'm looking forward to the discussion about this article. Some very interesting and provocative stuff... e.g. "Dogs can get along just fine on a daily ration of corn and soybeans." I assume that what he meant by "get along just fine" is "they don't immediately keel over dead". :-)

Barb September 7th, 2007 06:46:00 PM

Pet nutrition should be science-based, and so I fully support Dr. Fahey's research. But clearly, much of what makes it to the market has the human owner in mind, and so it ends up as a compromise between the human wants and what is best for Fido. Nevertheless, I predict that the pet food industry will parallel the current trends in human nutrition since dog and human metabolism is very well conserved (i.e.what is good for me may be good for Fido). Hence, we see that pet food is leaning towards more organic food, more omega-fatty acids... things that we know are good for us will eventually appear in pet food. Whether this assumption is true or not, scientists such as Dr. Fahey can provide the evidence.

Kate September 7th, 2007 07:40:00 PM

Ah, the New York Times magazine! I wonder how many people who cannot bear the possibility of little Foofy soiling the flokati read that article and felt all superior this weekend?

Having gone to the fair at some point in my childhood, I'm not all that outraged/exited/vaporated to discover that there is research that looks at food as it passes through the digestive systems of live animals. It seems to me the cow most prominently displayed back then lived in Gainesville. I guess they didn't have those up where you went to school?

Oooh, security text below (you know, the thing that proves your commenters are spambots) says "Docvelt". "Wild Doc"? Hm. Maybe they're on to you! Grab the goat, grab the dog, grab the boy and run!

Thing One September 7th, 2007 08:18:00 PM

"Pet nutrition should be science-based...."

Why? What is the big secret about feeding dogs? Nature didn't get it right? Wild dogs feed themselves, the wolf, the dog's closest relative, feeds itself, we have them to tell us what a dog's food should consist of. What, is that too simple?

Dr. Fahey is nothing but a glorified sh*t collector out to find the cheapest way to feed dogs on cheap, inappropriate things, often totally unnatural things, for their species. They can get along just fine on corn and soy beans...which they cannot digest at all unless they're cooked...can they? Why should they? I'll tell you why, because people can't be bothered to go to the slightest trouble for these companions who bond so tightly to us and give us the kind of friendship we can never get anywhere else. It's all about our "convenience", not what is best for them.

Science. It wasn't so long ago that those "complete and balanced", scientifically formulated pet foods had no taurine in them...what little that might have been in the meats that made it into those bags and cans was destroyed by processing. Dogs...and cats...it seemed, didn't need it anyway. Right. Blind cat, anyone? That cat wouldn't have died or gone blind if it had been fed what nature dictates. There is "plenty of taurine" in meat. It took a while for 'science' to figure that one out. What else is missing that they don't know about in the 'food' they make for dogs as a convenience for us?

I'll stop. I'm getting really hot. Dr. Khuly, you may be sorry you ever opened this can of worms.

Gil. September 7th, 2007 08:50:00 PM

Thing One: I have your number. I knew this issue would raise you! Fistulated cows were indeed a staple--even at Penn. For those of you who don't know--these are the non-proverbial holey cows. They have a hole cut into them to let us sample the contents of their fourth stomach--the rumen. It's a lot of fun to experience--almost as fabulous as sticking your entire arm up a cow's backside (quite pleasant in 20 degree weather, believe it or not).

Dr. Patty Khuly September 7th, 2007 08:52:00 PM

Gil: I'm so not sorry at all. This article riled me, too.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 7th, 2007 08:53:00 PM

Of course, it's even better if you slowly chant ooooooatmeeeeeeeeal while you're elbow deep in stomach.

Thing One September 7th, 2007 09:32:00 PM

GO GIL, GO GIL , GO GIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken September 7th, 2007 10:28:00 PM

I can't wait to hear your comments on this article! I read it earlier this week, and the ending of it almost made me cry. When the tech said those dogs were "spoiled brats"...ugh.

I totally agree with Gil. Why are they spending so much money and time (not to mention, experimenting on live dogs) to assess the digestibility of floor sweepings, when we could just, you know, use real meat? Why is this such a difficult concept? Dogs are not machines, where you try to figure out the cheapest thing you can put in that will result in the smallest output. What about the dog there in between the input and the output?

Anyway! I'm definitely no PETA fanatic, but I see no real justification for what these dogs are going through. We already know what dogs can digest the best (meat). They don't have those carnivore teeth and jaws for nothing...

Janine September 7th, 2007 11:41:00 PM

They're feeding these strange things because these strange things are plentiful byproducts of other processes.

We're in such a time of plenty that people don't grasp the problems to be solved around food scarcity. If things like the waste that's left over when you make corn syrup can be turned into food, that's a good thing. The kind of research described is not just about making cheap dog food, it's directly about figuring out how to feed people when better quality food's not available. This may not seem relevant to the reader in New Haven, but it's quite an issue for people in sub-Saharan Africa, among others.

Still, one reels from the shock of seeing any living thing fed oligosaccharides. Oh, the horror! Oh, the humanity!

Thing One September 8th, 2007 06:21:00 AM

Gil ~It's unfortunate you can't go directly to Dr Fahey to refute his "findings." Wonder if he gets grant money to do his kitchen wizadry. All I could think of as I was going through the blog was a book about the horrors of a research lab experimenting on dogs that I read years ago.

Ellie September 8th, 2007 07:11:00 AM

Yeah Gil!!
The more nutritional studies that are done for humans, the more we find that - in general - the less processed our food is the better it is for us. Not only because of nutrients that are destroyed in the processing - including nutrients yet-to-be-discovered - but also because Nature tends to provide nutrients in proportions and combinations that are ideal.

I don't think it's any different for pet food. Gil brought up the taurine fiasco - the researchers didn't even know that was a vital nutrient until lots of cats turned up blind or dead from heart failure. We may never truly know everything about nutrition, exactly what is needed when and in what amounts and ratios. But - whether you're a human or a dog or a cat - a diet consisting of a wide variety of fresh, whole, minimally processed foods is usually your best bet.

Barb September 8th, 2007 08:11:00 PM

Janine -
Don't be too upset about these dogs. The tubing they are talking about is very similar to a "peg" or stomach tube (except it was connected to the intestines). I've worked with many human patients who had peg tubes and they aren't painful at all. And I've had a cat who had to have a stomach tube placed for a while, and it certainly didn't seem to distress her in any way. These dogs get a lot of attention, they can move around freely, IMO they actually have a pretty good life. You obviously can't say that about all (or even most) research animals, but personally I don't see any reason to feel sorry for these dogs. They probably get a lot more attention than many family pets do!

Barb September 8th, 2007 08:16:00 PM

Thing One -
Good point! I never thought about the research being applicable to finding cheap sources of nutrition for humans. That makes sense!

Barb September 8th, 2007 08:19:00 PM

FYI for us pet lovers: (From the Merck Veterinary Manual)

In developed countries, nutritional diseases are rarely seen in dogs and cats especially when they are fed good quality commercial rations or nutritionally balanced homemade diets. Dog or cat foods or homemade diets derived from a single food item are inadequate. For example, feeding predominately meat or even an exclusive hamburger and rice diet to dogs can induce calcium deficiency and secondary hypoparathyroidism. Feeding raw, freshwater fish to cats can induce a thiamine deficiency. Feeding liver can induce a vitamin A toxicity in both dogs and cats. Malnutrition has been seen in dogs and cats fed “natural,” “organic,” or “vegetarian” diets produced by owners with good intentions, and most published recipes have been only crudely balanced (by computer) using nutrient averages. Because the palatability, digestibility, and safety of these recipes have not been adequately or scientifically tested, it is difficult to characterize all of these homemade diets. Generally, most formulations contain excessive protein and phosphorus and are deficient in calcium, vitamin E, and microminerals such as copper, zinc, and potassium. Also, the energy density of these diets may be unbalanced relative to the other nutrients. Commonly used meat and carbohydrate ingredients contain more phosphorus than calcium. Homemade feline diets that are not actually deficient in fat or energy usually contain a vegetable oil that cats do not find palatable; therefore, less food is eaten causing a calorie deficiency. Rarely are homemade diets balanced for microminerals or vitamins.

Kate September 9th, 2007 06:56:00 PM

Re Merck: Are cats and dogs really that more delicate than humans? I doubt it. Like many others I think we might be being a little snookered.

expat September 9th, 2007 11:18:00 PM

I agree, expat. Dogs and cats do have different nutritional requirements than we do (since they're carnivores and we're omnivores), but as long as everything is fed in moderation and basic guidelines are followed, it's not hard to feed home-prepared meals. Dogs especially are quite forgiving in what they eat, since they're very adaptable (some strays can live on garbage!). If one thinks of what these animals evolved to eat (as wolves and wild cats), it's not difficult to figure out what they need in their diets. Yes, feeding a diet of all muscle meat with no bones or organs would be bad, but attentive owners would probably notice it's not working out too well when the poops come out runny all the time! Same with liver...liver is great in small amounts (about 5% of the diet), but too much can be bad. But you'd probably notice if you're giving too much because too much liver can result in very dark, tarry, runny stools. And unless you ignore these signs, it's easy to do some research and figure out what's wrong.

Of course, it's best to do the research ahead of time, and although some sites have bad recipes (I've seen home-cooked recipes with no calcium in them), part of being a responsible owner is not depending on one source or one website and doing good, thorough research.

Janine September 9th, 2007 11:34:00 PM

Kate: Merck's point being made, let me just add a little fuel to the fire by suggesting that Merck's definition of nutritional disease is a very narrow one. Are diabetes, cancer, obesity and hyperthyroidism nutritional diseases? Maybe in a more enlightened version of Merck once the pathophysiology of these diseases get worked out.

And on the cats and vegetable oil and "calorie deficiency"...please! I want a reference!

I'll agree that there are plenty of reasons to steer certain clients away from home-cooked diets. But the one-kibble-for-all philosophy isn't exactly the ideal solution.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 10th, 2007 08:48:00 AM

Dr. Khuly,

I agree with what you say, but what do you think is the best approach pet owners should take when it comes to pet nutrition? There are several points of view out there, that it is very confusing and frustrating for me. It's true that it is as simple as going back to figuring out what the wild canines' primary nutrition was, but I also have to consider that my Fido's lifestyle is completely different from his wild counterparts. Where should I go to find out what is best for my Fluffy and kitties? This is why I welcome Dr. Fahey's research and several Pubmed articles out there, to at least help us consumers be informed on how we can keep our pets healthy.

Also, it seems that a majority of your commenters agree with Gil. And so I am curious, what are you feeding your dogs? And how do you know that it is the best one considering that Fido has diverged quite a lot from his canine counterparts in terms of lifestyle and genetics? I'm asking this not to provoke, but to learn to become a better pet owner.

Kate September 10th, 2007 11:01:00 AM

Hey Kate,

I'm not Dr. Khuly, but I just wanted to comment on your statement that our dogs have genetically diverged from their wild counterparts. This is actually not true...in fact, dogs and wolves differ by only 0.2% of their mitochondrial DNA ( reference: http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm ). When you consider that wolves and coyotes differ by 4%, you can see that dogs and wolves are almost exactly the same. In fact, all breeds of domestic dogs are classified as a subspecies of the gray wolf (Canis lupus familiaris).

They certainly do differ in terms of lifestyle, but lifestyle doesn't affect one's digestive system, as long as the dog is healthy. There's no doubt in my mind that a dog's digestive system works exactly the same way that a wolf's does. :)

Hope this clears things up a bit!

Janine September 10th, 2007 12:36:00 PM

Kate: You ask so nicely that who can resist you? I always hate to get into what I feed my dogs because as I study this issue more closely my tack changes. And, incidentally, that's how I tackle my own nutrition, as well. It's always changing a little based on new scientific evidence, my changing needs (training for races, something my doctor found in my bloodwork, my taste for certain foods, etc.).

I, too, am frustrated over the issue. Janine and others not long ago challenged me to look more closesly at how I feed my pups. Since then, the pet food recall happened and things seemed more frustrating than ever.

My take, though, has always been that variety is the key. I've always fed my dogs a basic kibble at breakfast and my own dinner at dinnertime. Now I feed a higher quality kibble (it varies but we're now working our way through a forty pound bag of "Howl at the Moon" by Solid Gold). I'm sticking to the dinnertime mommy-feeding with a variety of mostly-protenaceous and complex carb bland with fridge must-go's as an add-in. In other words, not a lot of pasta and rice. Lots of extra chicken, mahi-mahi or meatballs with sweet potates, parsnips, and blueberries thrown in.

My dogs look great and they're way healthy but I can't say that they wouldn't be healthier with another diet. So I'm still working on it. Whatever you do, though, stick to a veterinary nutritionists basic recommendations (see the website I posted above). A lot of them will work with you on a BARF format or any other lifestyle or feeding choice you desire.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 10th, 2007 03:27:00 PM

That there is 0.2% distance in mitochondrial DNA sequence between dogs and wolves doesn't mean "you can see that dogs and wolves are almost exactly the same". It means they diverged more recently than wolves and coyotes.


(Things enjoy being precise about evolutionary biology. After all, one wouldn't want to confuse a Thing with a similar organism that could merely do Something Something Something!)

Thing One September 10th, 2007 04:38:00 PM

"They certainly do differ in terms of lifestyle, but lifestyle doesn't affect one's digestive system, as long as the dog is healthy.There's no doubt in my mind that a dog's digestive system works exactly the same way that a wolf's does. "

Yes indeed, the digestive system is more or less similar, but could you say the same for all of the metabolic and physiologic needs? Sure that studying what the wolves eat may inform what to feed our dogs. But given that a wolf is in a natural habitat, while Fido is confined in an apartment, studies such as what Dr. Fahey is doing are helpful.

"in fact, dogs and wolves differ by only 0.2% of their mitochondrial DNA "

Just as Thing One said, this study by Dr.Wayne just confirms that dogs have wolves as their ancestors. They focused on the mitochondrial DNA because this is maternally inherited and can serve as a "clock" from which they can estimate the time of divergence. I'm not sure if a comparison has been done between the domestic dog and the wolf with regards to their nuclear DNA, but when it comes to genetics, even a small percentage difference can have profound consequences.

tinks September 10th, 2007 05:25:00 PM

Thanks Dr. Khuly! This is very helpful. I have some planning to do for my dog ,though I have to admit, what your dog is having for dinner is better than what I'm having tonight. hahaha ;) All the best!

Kate September 10th, 2007 09:42:00 PM

Has anyone bothered to look up this amazing little company Righteous Dog Food mentioned in the article. The one that is making a difference without all the animal testing and use of nutritionally bankrupt cast-offs? Why can't companies use common sense like those ladies and just create a wholesome and balanced diet? If you haven't seen their story you can at righteousdogfood.com, it looks like a great company and mission to changing not only dog health but the way we look at dog care.

Maria September 11th, 2007 01:53:00 PM

Maria: It's funny that you thought they were amazing. I thought the article made them look like kooks. There was something about one of the founders saying that it takes an artist to make dog food that struck me as a tad odd. Not that it's not true, but I felt strangely that they were being made the brunt of some inside joke.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 11th, 2007 08:17:00 PM

What? All she said was "artists think in process" which they do, and "our artistic proclivities have made us perfectly suited to"...meaning finding solutions to problems, problems they witnessed first hand in their dog world. What they have going on has truly inspired me; two women who share a great and deep love of animals doing something they believe in, to make a difference in their community. How many New Yorker's feel that way? And their product is so good, as you can see if you read their testimonial page and list of ingrediants.

Maria September 12th, 2007 05:57:00 PM

I agree--I think what they're doing is laudable. That was one of my reasons for disliking the article. I felt like the average Joe out there would consider them loopy from the way the article described them. Maybe I'm too sensitive.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 14th, 2007 09:08:00 AM

This is all I want to say but ...Dr. Patty, you called them kooks. I don't think you get any points here for being too sensitive.

Maria September 14th, 2007 07:06:00 PM

Maria: Isn't it odd that our drive to make pets do better comes down to building dog food companies out of SoHo lofts that once served as artists' studios? Isn't it surprising that they have no veterinary nutritionist on staff?

It says a lot about how far the average dog lover is willing to go to do the best for their pets (which is indeed a wonderful, laudable undertaking) *and* it presents the extreme counterpoint to Fahey's all-science-all-the time approach.

I suggest the article leans too heavily on either extreme without making a strong case for the balance between the two approaches. Nutrition is a marriage of science and art. I'd like to see a approach that achieves it. Righteous dog food might wel do that but that's *not* how they were portrayed in the article (and their website doesn't cite nutritionists either). That's the point I was gunning for. Sorry for the liberal use of a low word.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 17th, 2007 10:07:00 AM

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