Vet Stress Phantom anesthetic sensitivity syndrome in purebreds

October 16th, 2007  

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This is interesting.....and a hot topic on my Chihuahua chat room. I know that 2 of the ladies (separate times/cases/locations) have had Chis die on the operating table during a "routine" spay due to anesthesia complications. And that's scary! But, I was never informed that this breed had a particular sensitivity. Maybe complication due to being tiny??? I dunno. But I think they have a reasonable fear due to their specific circumstances.
I think having our pets go for surgery brings out our worst, irrational fears. It's abstract for non-health professionals. And I think all those "Animal ER" shows have everybody imagining the worst. I think people hear "things", see shows on TV, and then they can't really rationalize the process. And then Vets have to handle all that anxiety- I would guess that no amount of question answering will soothe some people......Maybe it's coming from a good place? People taking their responsibility and duty for their pets seriously and wanting to know they did everything they could and did it correctly. But it sounds like it gets way out of hand! Anytime people start telling educated, trained professionals how to do their jobs (versus just asking questions) - someone is out of line (and it ain't the professional!!!).
My dog has had to have 2 surgeries and I tried my best to stay positive and calm and ask the questions that would bring me understanding and comfort. It was only after they took her from me to go "in the back" that I started bawling! *blushing*.

Amy in Somerville October 16th, 2007 08:45:00 AM

Would you have more respect for my concerns if I told you that a veterinarian who breeds one of the breeds I own is concerned enough about anesthesia in that breed that she has written a guide to anesthesia in the breed? It's fairly widely available on the web, and she recommends sharing it with our vets. I take a copy any time I see a new vet. The anesthesia sensitivity is one reason I'm taking a wait&see attitude toward a lump my dog has. Needle biopsy indicates it's only a fatty lump; however, it may be contributing to a urine leakage problem my girl has. Since she's 13.5 years old and has a thickened mitral valve leading to class 3-4 heart murmur, I'm not sure the anesthesia issue isn't strike 3 against surgery. Certainly if I decide to go with surgery, I will end up going to a surgeon with better anesthesia management capability than my regular vet. My regular vet is fully in accord with this decision.

My other dog is from a breed that carries the MDR1 mutation. I haven't had her tested for it, but her recovery from anesthesia the 3 times she's had it in my owning of her has been prolonged even with iso. You bet I'm going to tell any vet that has to put her under that she is sensitive to anesthesia.

As far as the "anesthesia as a part of life" thing, that seems odd to me. Neither of my dogs (13.5 and nearly 12) has been anesthetized for dental work. Only now are they beginning to show signs that the raw meaty bones diet may not be enough in these later years to keep their teeth sufficiently clean. The 13.5 yo has probably been anesthetized at most 2x in her life -- once for her OFA X-rays (if it was necessary, it may not have been for this dog) and once for her spay after determining she was not going to be bred. The 12yo has been under at least 4x: 1 for spay, 1 for OFA, 2 for injuries that might have (and did) limit her sport career. If she weren't a sport dog, she probably would be at one time under. My previous dog lived 14.5 years without ever experiencing anesthesia.

At this point, I'd be a little concerned about whether or not you would listen to my concerns about anesthesia and my dogs, did I need to see you in your professional capacity.

kabbage October 16th, 2007 09:10:00 AM

"After all, anesthesia is a basic for well cared for pets of all stripes."

Can you expound on this a little? I have an almost 7yo female Golden who has never had anesthesia, never had an antibiotic or steroid. She's raw fed and not vaccinated (except for mandatory rabies, as few as I can possibly get away with) and about as healthy a dog as you could ever want to see. Is anesthesia a basic for well cared for pets who eat kibble and are over-vaccinated?

Or are we just lucky?

Sharyn October 16th, 2007 09:51:00 AM

kabbage: My point is that I'm THAT careful with ALL of them. All of them have peculiarities that need to be addressed--far more so because of their individual issues (heart murmur, thirteen years old, hypoplastic trachea, brachycephalic, high blood pressure, elevated liver enzymes, depressed renal function) than for any breed-related genetic tendencies due to X, Y or Z mutation. If you don't believe me you can check with Dr. Urs Giger who catalogs genetic traits in purebreeds at the University of Pennsylvania--none I know of are classified as "anesthetic drug sensitivities," save, perhaps, for the barbiturate issue in sight hounds. The fact that some breeds require special care in one or more areas due to their conformation, predisposition to certain kinds of cardiac disease, etc is not lost on us. But the preponderance of misinformation on the sensitivity of so many particular breeds to anesthesia is a source of frustration to us and makes for a boy-who-cried-wolf scenario for any truly heritable sensitivity. I want real research here. I don't want to hear "my breeder says" and "my vet says" because I've heard it about all of 'em. I'll listen and I'll sympathize and I'll look it up in my databases, but I'll be much more informed if you can tell me something specific about YOUR dog than from some second-hand source.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 16th, 2007 10:07:00 AM

Sharyn, if your bitch had been spayed, she would have had anesthesia. Many responsible owners have this done well before the age of 7. I assume you have good reasons for this, and do not mean to criticize your decisions.

As for me, I did have Sassy cat almost die on the table. She had gone in for "routine" dental cleaning, but she is an elderly cat, about 14 at the time of procedure, and morbidly obese (more than half her body weight is fat- a 14 pound cat on a 6 pound frame), and has diabetes. So she is risky for anesthesia because of her physical condition. The vet and I have talked about attempting the dental cleaning again and the procedures she would attempt to prevent recurrance of her apparent apshyxiation reaction, but my fears have not been allayed that she would not have a similar reaction. (The vet techs apparently used a lidocaine spray before intubation, and Sassy did not get the tube placed correctly, and therefore choked when the IV anesthesia was started. The vet promised me to do a direct lidocaine drip to make sure the throat was properly anesthetized before intubation instead of the spray- I worry that she'll still react to the anesthesia and it wasn't just the intubation that was the problem). The only pet I have that I don't know anesthesia reactions is Pepe- he was neutered before we took him home.

Georg October 16th, 2007 10:21:00 AM

I do know that "sensitivity to pre-op meds" exists in humans, as an individual difference.

My late father, may he rest in peace, wore a Medic-Alert bracelet for this. Doctors had to be careful with the doses, or not use those meds at all, as the normal dose would slow him down too much. I don't know if I inherited the same thing, but I do know that the equivalant of 1/2 an adult aspirin every four hours is a full dose for me or I start to OD. If I get dental work on a molar the local numbs half my face from one side of my nose to that ear. And, "Tylenol" (over the counter), doesn't seem to work at
all on me for a headache, so we don't have it in the house.

kittymom October 16th, 2007 10:32:00 AM

OK so I see I've ruffled feathers and I can indeed see why--I'm not as utterly insensitive as this post might make me seem.

Sharyn: Anesthesia is necessary for spays, neuters, orthopedic X-rays, emergency situations, dentistries, etc. If a pet is bred so poorly that it's unwise *ever* to anesthetize it, you're in trouble. It's basic for a pet to be able to survive a simple anesthetic procedure.

Having to wait to take lumps off or clean teeth or X-ray hips because of a sensitivity seems like a poor proposition for any pet given the high-tech state of veterinary care in America.

But that's a vet's point of view. And no, I don't believe in poor quality kibble (I'm most selective) and I vaccinate less than most any vet I know in my area. I don't believe that anything I've said here should lead you to assume that proper anesthetic technique (and recognizing the necessity of anesthesia) equates to poor quality (or excessive) veterinary medicine--quite the contrary in my view.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 16th, 2007 10:35:00 AM

kittymom: I absolutely agree. If a pet or a pet's parents have had certain reactions before, this is the kind of information that helps us make daily decisions on which anesthetics to use. Some pets wake up very slowly after receiving X medication. Some get very slow heart rates on certain drugs. These findings then get special attention on the medical record, as they do for humans.

The flip side: My father is allergic to penicillin and my mother is "sensitive" to lots of drugs, but that doesn't mean my personal physicians assume the same for me--my two siblings and I are so far free of any drug reactions.

Indeed, most of these sensitivities are individual.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 16th, 2007 10:42:00 AM

Amen! Thank you for writing about this....add vaccines to the list because several times a week I am told "oh my breeder said my dog/cat can't have that vaccine, they are sensitive to it"

dr. monique di santo October 16th, 2007 10:57:00 AM

I guess I should start by saying I have sight hounds (IGs to be precise). That's a double strike (toy and sight hound). I've had several other purebred breeds in the past and never had any breeder warn me of anesthetic sensitivity (although for my first IG I almost wish she'd had). My first IG was neutered at 8mo. old shortly after I had acquired him. The vet I'd been using at the time (he has long since retired) was old school and had very little experience with any type of sight hound, as they weren't very common in my area. Well I'm not sure of the precise details of what happened in the operating room, but I do know that his body temperature plummeted and he almost died (or did "die" and was brought back). The vet was shaken by the experience, and refused to ever anesthetize any of my dogs again (for procedures that required it he insisted that I go to a specialty hospital in a neighboring state). I have since learned much about my breed from those who have been in the breed longer. Lesson learned (it could have been a much harder lesson learned though). My new vet I trust and admire greatly. However, you can be sure the first time he needed to use anesthesia on my dogs, I asked him questions (without making him feel that I didn't trust him) to assure myself that he was well versed on sight hound issues. I do understand the frustrations on the part of a vet for dealing with issues that may not exist; however, isn't it a good thing that people are concerned enough to ask questions? (I know that just by asking questions and having the vet take a second look at my dog's chart, mistakes have been caught before they had an affect on my dog) If your client has a good relationship and trusts you, then you can share an exchange of information. As for the other type of client, they are going to be annoying no matter what. Chalk it up to doing business with the public.

Jessie October 16th, 2007 11:16:00 AM

After reading the rest of the posts and realizing that this was such an incendiary topic I felt I should clarfy in advance. I was not referring to dogs/cats with previous history of allergic reactions to vaccines. I was commenting on owners being advised that based on the breed of puppy or kitty that they purchased their pet should NEVER be given certain basic vaccines (parvo, etc)

dr. monique di santo October 16th, 2007 11:33:00 AM

Thanks for writing this Dr. Patty - it's interesting to hear the vet's perspective on this. And hopefully, our responses will help you understand the breeder/pet owner POV also.

First of all, I think a lot of this nervousness comes from the fact that bad news gets transmitted like lightening, and good news goes nowhere. This was true even before the Internet, but it's much more obvious now. If someone takes their dog in for some "routine" procedure (and I remember that you wrote a great post about that!) and it dies, now the whole world hears about it. But it's pretty rare to see a message from someone that "I took my dog in for a spay/teeth cleaning etc. and she did just fine!" So we get an overblown idea of the risks involved.

I don't know what breed kabbage has, but in Danes there have been so many reports of dogs dying from DIC following "routine" surgeries (I remember that great post you wrote about "routine" procedures). This certainly could partially be due to the "bad news travels" phenomenon I referred to earlier - but the Great Dane Club of America thought it was a serious enough problem that they set up a commttee (which had at least one vet on it) to look into the matter and that led to the formulation of recommended guidelines for anesthesia. You can read them at http://www.gdca.org/health/surgery.htm Owners are encouraged to take these to, and discuss them with their vet.

These guidelines aren't anything extraordinary - they may be what you already routinely do in your clinic. But there appear to be lots of vets out there who aren't so careful! Actually, I take that back - having worked with many different vets in several different clinics back when I was a licensed tech I never met a vet who didn't care if the animal on the table survived or not. But there are lots of vets who use less-than-cutting edge protocols. This may be due to a belief that their client base "won't pay for it" or perhaps they are just clinging to what is familiar. So it behooves the pet owner IMO to discuss this with the vet beforehand - and to many pet owners, saying something like "this breed is sensitive to anesthesia" or "my breeder said...." may feel safer than just expressing their personal concerns.

I do truly understand the vet's frustration when a pet owner comes in and says "my breeder said..." There are lots more inexperienced/ignorant/flat out stupid breeders out there than experienced and knowledgable ones. But don't you think that an experienced, intelligent breeder might have a point? They've had 20, 30, or more years to invest in ONE or maybe two breeds - and in addition to their own vast experience they have been reading books and articles, going to seminars, talking with other experienced and knowledgeable people. A vet has to be able to treat every breed, so it stands to reason that you can't be a real "expert" in every one. There may not be that many true differences in the way different breeds should be treated when it comes to medical matters, but is it so unreasonable to think that there may sometimes be a FEW differences?

For example, referring back to my breed I do think that LOTS of Danes are overdosed when it comes to pre-meds, if not actual anesthesia. Unless the staff administering the cocktail is pretty darned experienced, they will give a lean 105 lb. Dane bitch the same dose they would give an obese 105 lb. Rottie or Lab. The fat to lean tissue ratio in those two examples is drastically different! And as you know, that makes a HUGE difference in how well and quickly the dog recovers.

Barb October 16th, 2007 11:57:00 AM

Barb: As always, I appreciate your well-reaserched and experienced POV. I do have to admit that there are breeder and then there are, well, you know. I've worked with a handful of the former and way too many of the latter. Most vets will second me on that. The vet vs. breeder wars have been going on for as long as there have been some of each around. Mostly, I tend to think of the issue as one-sided because of the preponderance of puppy mills and backyard breeders (and because I'm a vet, of course). But your opinion here gives us all a chance to see the other side. Yes, of course, the breeder might have a point. The breeder might be right. We'd be stupid to ignore inormation from a trusted source. Problem is, there's something in us that tends to turn off when the "my breeder says" line comes up...yet again. And that's because it tends to be misinformed (maybe just by the "telephone" game, who knows?) But it's also true that with anything as important as anesthesia, you can never be too careful. For the record, I'd research anything *you* suggested.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 16th, 2007 12:19:00 PM

Dr. Patty - also remember that while medical techniques have improved over time, the loss or near loss of a pet stays with an owner forever. I had a father/daughter pair of cats many years ago. I almost lost both under anesthesia. I had a wonderful vet, but we were even more careful about future uses of anesthesia.

When I took my current cats into the vet the first time, I asked about this and apparently the protocols are completely different than they were 25 years ago. But the memory of the phone calls that my cats weren't coming out of the anesthesia as expected will be wth me forever. So while my friends think I'm nuts, I can't relax until I hear from the vet that my kitties are awake after a teeth cleaning.

2CatMom October 16th, 2007 12:29:00 PM

This was a timely posting for me. My dog, Pepper is at the vets right now undergoing eye removal surgery. She is a 10 year old Chinese Crested dog with a moderate heart murmur. By the way, when I was looking to get a Chinese Crested years ago, I was informed that this breed was "sensitive to anesthesia", however all three of my dogs have had different procedures done over the years and been fine. It also seem to me that anesthesia drugs & procedures have become safer over time.

I did take the time this morning to question the vet about the procedure to make sure Pepper would receive an injection of induction drugs and not just be "masked down". Plus, I wanted to make sure she received IV fluids. This vet routinely "masks down" animals for procedures, so I wanted to make sure it was not done to my older dog with cardiac concerns.

I have worked in wildlife & exotic rescue for many years, assisted vets in a number of procedures and am probably more knowledgable than most pet owners. If a vet is put off by my questions & concerns, that is too bad. I am polite and reasonable but expect some give and take where my pets are concerned.

Dr. Khuly, perhaps you could write up an anesthesia facts sheet for your patients. It might help to explain the procedure, risks, etc. I think most pet owners know or have heard of someone's pet dying while under anesthesia. There are real risks! I am sweating it out now waiting to hear about how Pepper's surgery went.

Susan October 16th, 2007 12:44:00 PM

Well, I think, at least me for me, it all comes down to fear of surgery. Surgery for me, for my human family, and for my dog family. It's all just scary. If I'm having surgery I ask lots of questions, if family is having surgery they ask lots of questions, and if my dogs are having surgery, I have to ask the questions like I would for a child. Anyone not in the medical or vet professions have so little knowledge to work with when it comes to these things; anything you don't understand, is scary. And even the best of trust in your doc or vet doesn't make you any less anxious until the doc says 'Surgery's over, mom, dad, Fluffy, or whoever, is awake and fine'.

Cardimom October 16th, 2007 01:00:00 PM

In the 13 years I've had my first dog, anesthesia drugs and procedures have advanced by leaps and bounds, have they not? So things are lots better than they were 13 years ago. But if someone had a bad experience with anesthesia years ago, convincing them that they won't have the same experience again is like telling them to jump off of tall building. They aren't going to do it without a soft landing and lots of coaxing and cajoling. Even then, they might not do it.

My dogs have all done great with anesthesia, knock on wood. But I know people whose dogs haven't. Vet skill? Drugs used? Differences in dogs? So many variables, it's hard to tell. Cost does figure into it. One vet I went to years ago offered clients the option of basic anesthesia protocol and deluxe and made the client sign off if they declined the deluxe version. Knowing what I know now about anesthesia, I always spring for the deluxe, but I didn't then. I'd hate to be a vet working without a net, so I don't ask them to. :-)

Deanna October 16th, 2007 01:44:00 PM

Hmmm... I think in this case it would be the vet's responsibility to reassure the client that the necessary care will be taken, rather than get annoyed with the client. They are, after all, trying to research their breed, act on the information they were given, and do what's best for their pet.

I'm one of those annoying people who warned their vet about sensitivity to anesthesia. I have a Great Pyrenees mix, and I researched the breed when I got my pup. The AKC website information page on Great Pyrenees states,

"Great Pyrenees have a low metabolism. Please always caution your veterinarian about weighing your Pyr before giving any anesthetic to the dog, and only give "to effect".

Now, I'm not a vet, and I have no canine expertise. I'm only a pet owner. I took the info from the AKC, and other sources, at face value and mentioned it to my vet when I was planning my puppy's neuter. My vet listened to me, and reassured me, and I felt as comfortable as I could feel when I delivered my beloved pup to have his surgery. I'm glad I didn't get any sense that I was driving my vet nuts by talking to him about this.

I later went to work for this same vet, and I saw lots of things that drove me nuts - people taking their healthy dogs in to be 'put down' when they didn't want them anymore, uncared for cats covered with ticks, owners refusing to pay medical bills... But an owner wanting to advocate for their pet and make informed decisions about anesthesia? There are worse things, aren't there?

FarmFashion October 16th, 2007 02:39:00 PM

As any good discussion should, this one has gotten both sides of the aisle thinking! :-) It's just as dismaying for a responsible breeder to have a puppy buyer call them and say "My vet said I should..." when the advice given is something the breeder knows or believes (based on experience and/or research, not hearsay) to be possibly detrimental to the pup. You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) how many vets are still pushing annual or even biannual vaccinations, for example. Parvo boosters every six months??!! Really!!?? Or my personal favorite "He said my puppy's nails were too short". What the....??

Breeders have to keep in mind that there are probably many vets who have never had a truly responsible breeder as a client - or possibly have never even had a client who bought a puppy from a responsible breeder. Since we all want to help the buyer raise the healthiest dog possible it's helpful IMO to give the puppy person handouts and articles which back up my recommendations. Sharing these things with the vet will hopefully improve communication and understanding between the puppy owner and their vet, and hopefully the dog will come out the winner.

Barb October 16th, 2007 04:26:00 PM

FarmFashion: Point taken. There are FAR worse things. Still, I would like to take this opportunity to assure everyone that anesthesia is super-safe compared to years past, and that when a *trusted* vet recommends it, it's usually for a great reason. Thanks for pointing out that we can't have it both ways--sometimes I forget.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 16th, 2007 04:28:00 PM

As a veterinarian, I also constantly hear about the breed sensitiivity issue. From reading the above comments, it seems that most people's worries are individual - not breed related. They hear a story of two of a breed dying under anesthesia, a human who recognizes they are sensitive to a particular opiate, or one of their own pets having trouble under anesthesia - and there is thier proof of breed sensitivity. These are all examples of INDIVIDUAL sensitivites.

Dr. Khuly is right in pointing out that we vets don't ignore concerns of anesthesia sensitivity - we go beyond concerns about simply the breed, and incorporate everything else about that indivdual. Breed is only one small part of what makes up an individual. Most of the issues people consider as breed sensitivity are really individual problems that are common to a breed, such as soft tracheal rings in toy breeds, aspiration pneumonia risks in giant breeds, etc. There are, of course, several exceptions, like MDR mutations and others. But mostly, when you tell your vet about a breed sensitivity, and he acts bored, its just because the vet usualy has allready incorporated the breed's issues into his holistic individual anesthetic plan.

Think of it like telling the bus driver to step on the fat pedal in the middle to slow down.

M October 16th, 2007 04:30:00 PM

M-

“Think of it like telling the bus driver to step on the fat pedal in the middle to slow down”.

It’s unfortunate that a pet owner who has concerns about a pet’s health would sound so frankly stupid to a veterinarian. It’s also unfortunate that a veterinarian would “act bored” when asked questions about an upcoming surgery. I really feel that, in order for the best possible health care be given to a pet, veterinarians and owners have to be able to communicate well. While veterinarian can provide great healthcare, an animal’s health is ultimately in the hands of its owner, who decides what procedures will be done, and lives with and cares for the animal on a daily basis.

The underlying issue here is trust. The veterinarians who have written in seem to have in common the need to have their judgment trusted by their clients, who know less about veterinary medicine than veterinarians do. Good vets know that they do their best for each pet, and don’t want to have their standard of care questioned. But trust can only occur when a client establishes a relationship with a veterinarian. And trust must be earned.

People really can improve their pet’s quality of life by asking questions. Case in point: our elderly cocker spaniel. He was starting to walk in a way I found odd, and he seemed to be slowing down in a myriad of ways. Our local vet examined him and found nothing. I really felt that something was off, and went to a different vet, who recommended thyroid tests and x-rays. We found his thyroid levels were low, his back was “a disaster” and he had problems with his hock from a past injury. With thyroid pills and pains meds, his quality of life drastically improved. Unquestioning acquiescence to every veterinarian’s medical decisions doesn’t always make for the healthiest pet.

So, I think pet owners should ask questions. And vets should take pet owners seriously, and answer those questions, even when they are irritatingly repetitive or ill-informed, as the question of breed sensitivity to anesthesia seems to be. One of my biggest criteria for choosing a vet is whether I feel I can communicate with them. If I can’t communicate with my vet, and be taken seriously, then I will be in the dark when it comes to my pet’s health, and that is not where I want to be.

FarmFashion October 16th, 2007 06:22:00 PM

I think it works like this. You buy a red car, and suddenly every second car on the road is red. You hear one case of a problem with anesthetic with a particular breed, and then hear a second a month later, and see it as an epidemic. Its the way the human mind seems to work. Might be one reason why that opinion is out there. I would be more worried about anesthetic for an older dog, or one with pre-existing conditions.

Robin October 16th, 2007 07:16:00 PM

Can I start one more comment with "my breeder says..."? I asked my breeder whether collies were sensitive to anaesthesia, since I'd heard some other dog owners dicussing the problem. She told me that if a breeder tells you her dogs have issues with anaesthesia sensitivites, she ought to be changing her breeding program. She also reassured me that her dogs did not have any problems with anaesthesia, but I should also know that sometimes, things just happen and an animal will react badly, and that it's just a sad situation and usually has nothing to do with the vet or breeder. I thought that sounded like really sensible advice.

Cindy October 16th, 2007 08:54:00 PM

Not all vets are created equal. My own vet didn't know there was a corolation between aggression and thyroid issues until I brought it to his attention a few years ago. Now thyroid and lyme testing is almost regular everywhere to rule out those health issues before treating aggression problems. Thankfully I had a vet that trusted ME and did the research.

Vets are busy people dealing with multiple species. I don't assume they are up on every single breed specific update out there. They are only human after all.

And not all clinics are equipted with the latest and greatest either. If someone we trust (breeder or rescue group) says this may be an issue with our new pet then you bet we will pass that info on to our vets. Then we trust our vets to use that info accordingly.

Marie October 17th, 2007 08:20:00 AM

FarmFashion, I agree with everything you say about communication. It is the single most important component of the veterinary/client/patient relationship. I was just waxing poetic when using the busdriver analogy, and it seems the emotional response ensured that my point was irretrievably lost.

The truth of the matter is simply that all of the suggestions noted in the above comments (including the MDR1 mutation), and in the referenced websites are basic, fundamental anesthetic concepts that most of us learned as veterinary students. An owner's concern is always appreciated, but my point was this: sometimes its hard when someone is "educating" you about a mythical breed sensitivity (one about which you've heard a thousand times) when you've already incorporated that into your plan, and then some. That is very different from irritation at an owner for airing their concerns and asking questions.

Please don't confuse the two.

M October 17th, 2007 10:39:00 AM

My bad! Yes, Cedar was spayed, so did have general anesthesia that one time. She's never had to have her teeth cleaned, x-rays, or lumps removed, so hasn't needed it since.

Sorry...I forgot about the spay. It was a long time ago!<G>

Sharyn

Sharyn October 18th, 2007 09:12:00 AM

wow, I know I'm a few days off BUT everyone is being overly sensitive about this. I'm not a vet, I don't perform any type of surgical procedures. I know my vet takes every precaution for all of my animals, my dogs and my rats. I've never seen any issue with them. I don't notice any breed or dog that would just be so sensitive that a doctor should take extra care beyond what they need. Yes, some need it more than others, but the vets already know which ones need it. The older dogs need something from a dog that has seizures for aftercare. That's just how it works. I think...every owner/breeder needs to just chill and feel that their animals are in good hands, and if they don't feel that way then perhaps they should see a new vet.

ashleigh October 19th, 2007 12:33:00 PM

I agree with much of what has been said here on both sides of the issue. I have many years of experience with a giant breed that has many of the same issues that Great Danes have, and I do have concerns whenever they undergo anesthesia. Those concerns do not stop me from have necessary procedures done for them, but I do insist on discussing them with my vet. And the best vets I have had have been those that have been willing to listen not only to my concerns, but also to any information that I have to give them. And, there have been a few times over the years when my assessment of my animal has been proven to be correct over my vet's initial assessment. No one knows my animal as well as I do, so it is my responsibility to be his best advocate.

I also am a vet tech and have assisted with many surgeries, so I have experience with that side of things as well and am familiar with the precautions taken before, during and after surgeries. In our small clinic I am usually the staff member that discusses these issues with the clients and obtains their consent for pre-anesthesia blood testing, electrocardiagrams, etc. I know that I welcome the clients that give me the opportunity to actually sit down and discuss the reasons for screening their pets, and share their concerns with me so that I can not only address their concerns, but also give them the information that we feel they need to have. Too many clients just want to rush their pets in, drop them off and pick them up again without taking the time to actually talk about the procedures, the risks, and the precautions. Their level of trust in us is great, but their understanding of what their pet is undergoing is sorely lacking. God forbid that pet should be the one that has difficulties under anesthesia. It's a little late to have to explain the risks of anesthesia at the same time you have to explain their pet died on the table or has to stay in the hospital extra days while trying to get the vomiting under control, etc. Give me the choice of an educated/super-concerned client or a blindly-trusting client and I will choose the educated/super-concerned one every time.

So, while I agree in theory with Ashleigh's last comment "every owner/breeder needs to just chill and feel that their animals are in good hands, and if they don't feel that way then perhaps they should see a new vet," I also feel that discussions like this are vital to those of us on both sides of the issue, so that both clients AND vets have a free and open exchange of information which leads to good outcomes for the patients AND helps the owners make a good decision when selecting their particular vet or what procedures will be done on their pet.

Marilyn

Marilyn October 20th, 2007 10:35:00 AM

my chihuaha went in for routine neuter on 3/27/08 thursday and didn't come home...supposed respitory distress due to anesthesia...how do i know the vet didn't make some mistake?

belinda March 31st, 2008 08:33:00 PM

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