Pet Patients Every dog has his day…

November 14th, 2007  

Add Comment13 Comments

Aww, he's a cutie! (And looking just THRILLED with the series of events for the day...)

Hope he's back in action soon and a calmer dog - for everyone's sake.

Give the little guy a smooch for me.

Cindy November 14th, 2007 01:44:00 PM

Please report on whetehr or not the surgery changes Vincent's behavior. The research is far from conclusive. The only behavior that seems to be reliably changed by neutering is marking (and of course mating - though not necessarily mounting).

It also tends to reduce fighting, but it seems that neutering doesn't so much change the behavior of the altered male as it changes the reactions of other dogs to him, thus reducing fighting. I know my own males treat alterd males like females and will put up with most anything from them - they seem to think aggressive displays are flirting, which certainly confuses the other dog, and defuses any tension.

Linda H November 14th, 2007 01:45:00 PM

Ohhh, that tongue - he is utterly adorable. Wishing him the best possible recovery and no future trouble at either end.

Liz Black Dog November 14th, 2007 01:51:00 PM

My dog is neutered, although I dont know at what age - he was 7yo when I got him. But he still marks, including raking the ground with his hind legs. But he is quiet, laid back, and tolerates most things, except his hair being pulled. I can pat him while he is eating, or scratching himself, and he ignores it. Dont know how much of that behaviour is from being neutered, though.

Habits remain, because they are habits, if they were formed before neutering. But you should still notice some difference in his temperament, imho.

Robin November 14th, 2007 04:53:00 PM

There are never any guarantees with neutering, as I explained to my nine year-old son today. His trigger point should be reset a little lower, is all. All the unwanted drives may diminish or completely resolve but few behaviors will ever miraculously resolve. I advocate neutering for behavior problems because it does help--statistically--not because it's any sort of "cure." Without a properly instituted behavior mod program you're typically left...ahem...pissing in the wind.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 14th, 2007 05:08:00 PM

What a handsome fella you got there! I've always been a sucker for those smooshed face pups. Far as I'm concerned "testiculectomies" wouldn't be such a bad idea for other species also, lol.

Jules November 14th, 2007 07:45:00 PM

Darn, My last comment reply got eaten.

To paraphrase- I don't believe there have been enough REAL testing on the effects of altering and behavior. The few studies that (I have seen) have been done are iffy at best. A real study would include two groups of different breed dogs (equal in each group and from the same background) done over a long period of time with knowledgeable dog people observing. (The second group not having been altered.) Hard to do and raise them in the same circumstance as well so the behavior would be the same otherwise.

They also need true studies done for early altering and behavior as well. I know there are a few flaoting around out there but I haven't seen any that impressed me yet.

My male akita was neutered at 9 weeks old. Check out my blog to see how fabulous he is with other dogs, a trait akitas aren't usually known for. I do think his early altering helped. Of course some would say my being a trainer helped more than early alter. And he isn't smaller or more bitchy looking which is what some breeders say happens with dogs altered early. (or overly tall either which is what the other camp claims)

They just don't do studies often enough by people who are NOT invested in the results IMO.

Marie November 15th, 2007 07:58:00 AM

P.S. I hope Vincent heals fast and feels better soon!

Marie November 15th, 2007 07:59:00 AM

Excellent snap - what a cutie pie. I can't wait to read about his recovery!

Amy in Somerville November 15th, 2007 08:30:00 AM

I love them Frenchies! Guess it must be the big ears, like Cardigans. I just want to throw a couple of things in the mix. First, recent information has indicated later rather than earlier altering of dogs because of the hormonal influence on growth plate closure (a biggie if you do performance). I have made a decision that all my dogs in the future won't be altered until they have finished growing. My girl was spayed at 7 months, long before Cardigans achieve full growth, and I wonder what part this played in her hip dysplasia. The second thing I want to throw in is just how much influence hormones play in actual temperment, vs behavior. We know that hormones play a big role in behaviors, but I think the degree to which those behaviors are expressed have a lot to do with temperment. Not temperment as in good dog, bad dog, but as in how assertive, independent, or easy going a dog (male or female) is, just based on the personality they are born with. The temperment that a dog is born with can be worked with to a certain extent by early socialization and early training, but nothing is ever going to convince my girl Holly that she isn't a diva (with an agenda!). She's not bad, she was just born with a pretty high opion of herself, but grew up knowing where the line was in how she can express that. My intact male (I'm showing him in breed because his breeder wanted me to try it) is the most laid back, happy, never had a problem with anyone ever dog I've ever been around. At this point, I probably won't alter him after he finishes his champion. I think that the evidence shows that there are health benifits to both altering and to keeping dogs intact, so it's a toss up health wise. Of course this all assumes that owners will be 100% responsible for the reproduction (or lack of) in their dogs, and that just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't advocate for most of my neighbors to keep intact dogs!

Cardimom November 15th, 2007 10:02:00 AM

Great pic! Shows exactly how thrilled most dogs feel after surgery...

Still, I wouldn't expect too much as far as behavior modification is concerned, especially if he is well past puberty. From what you've written, it sounds like he's just an out-of-control adolescent who thinks he runs the household. I really, really, really recommend some good old-fashioned obedience training, and a drag line in the house so he can be corrected when he displaces on his sister. Methinks he could stand to learn a little self-control. Calming signals and the academic version of "behavior modification" are all very well and good, but sometimes you just gotta tell a dog NO, and on no uncertain terms, especially if they're causing pain and injury to other members of the pack.

I would consult with a professional dog trainer who has a lot of experience with aggression issues. Good luck!

Tracy D November 15th, 2007 11:37:00 AM

Marie, you are absolutely correct that there haven't been enough studies, or enough good studies. And often the studies that exist are used incorrectly. The study I have seen cited frequently to support the safety of spay/neuter , especially early spay/neuter, was done on a large population of shelter dogs and it's purpose was to determine if there were significant differences between altering at the usually recommended age (6-9 months) and pediatric altering (6 - 12 weeks). The study is pretty good for its intended purpose, though it relied a lot on surveys filled out by owners (not what I would call the most reliable methodology). There were some differences, specifically more urinary incontinance, but otherwise not a lot of significance. The problem is - the comparison is between two groups, neither of which were physically mature. When you start comparing altering before maturity with altering after maturity (or unaltered dogs) serious questions appear. http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html and http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffec... give good overviews of the literature.

As Marie said, the studies are not conclusive - samples tend to be small, or only use one breed, or have questionable protocols. To me, the most significant behavioral study I've heard of is unpublished (darn) - done by Guide dogs of San Rafael, for their own purposes. The divided a number of litters in half and did pediatric altering on one half and an average of 17 months on the other half. The observations were done by their own experienced trainers. Significantly fewer early alters did not pass guide dog training as compared to the ones altered later. The males tended to be fearful and the females were aggressive (female aggression as a result of spaying has been noted in other studies as well).

As far as I can tell, the usually recommended age of six months is not based on studies (other than the one on mammary cancer). It was selected for convenience - to be sure spaying was done before the first heat. Dr. Khuly do you know of any other reasons or studies on which the six month age is based?

Marie, I'm glad your Akita is well adjusted and doesn't show bad physical effects. On the other side, my two unrelated intact male Airedales (another breed known for dog aggression) also handle themselves beautifully with other dogs, including other intact males. I think it is because they were well-socialized growing up, and they know I'm boss.

I agree with Cardimom. There are pros and cons to altering at various ages, but I would agree with the survey by Laura Sanborn (I've read most of the cited articles, and a few others as well). For males, staying intact is best from a health standpoint. For females it's pretty much a toss-up, but for both it is better to wait until the growth plates have closed.

Even from a population control standpoint, I don't see much benefit in altering males, in spite of the propaganda. All it takes is one intact male in a population to impregnate available females (barring the complicaitons of confinement and control by humans - but statistically I think it still works out). Especially from the standpoint of using resources (as in funding for spay/neuter clinics)the return (or lack of offspring :-) from every female spayed is much greaterthan from every male altered. For example, in wildlife population control, if you want to reduce the size of a deer herd, hunting seasons for does is the only effective method. Hunting bucks only has no long-term impact on the population.

And I agree with Tracy D about training. Some dogs just need to be shown that you are a stronger leader than they are. My first dog, and Alaskan Malamute, was a very tough, dominant male (we were not a good match :-). His response to positive training was to be very sullen and aggressive to dogs and people. When I finally found a trainer who showed me how to take command, you wouldn't have believed the difference in my dog. He was well-behaved, and visibly HAPPIER. His tail came up, there was a new spring in his step, his eyes sparkled and he loved doing obedience. I've seen similar transformations in other tough dogs since then.

Linda H November 15th, 2007 01:57:00 PM

EARLY ALTERING MESSES UP GROWTH PLATES. THE HORMONES IN ANIMALS MUST BE ALOWED IN FOR PROPER HEALTH. DO NOT TRUST VETS WHO DO IT ESARLIER THEN 6 MONTHS ITS A MONEY MAKING VET WHO DOES NOT CARE.

Hellen November 30th, 2007 10:08:00 PM

Add Commment

Your Name:

CAPTCHA Verification