About three years ago, I purchased a puppy from a
woman who advertises herself as a breeder of "The Only
Naturally Raised Scottish Terriers." That puppy, like
her sire and dam, was always raw fed, unvaccinated,
and never knowingly exposed to parasiticides. At ten
weeks, her whole litter was infected with parvovirus,
and during the outbreak, one puppy succumbed--not to
dehydration, but to splenetic hemorrhage. When we
took possession of our puppy at sixteen weeks, she was
infested with fleas and, we would later discover,
carrying a heavy hookworm and whipworm burden. These
were fairly minor afflictions compared with the liver
failure that eventually caused us to euthanize our
puppy at 21 months. Her sudden and severe
gastrointestinal difficulties had been diagnosed as
pancreatitis, but necropsy revealed her liver to have
been 100% fibrotic and cirrhotic at time of death.

I generally adhere to a holistic philosophy in canine
care, but I find an approach incorporating willingness
to accommodate facts on the ground superior to strict
adherence to abstract principle. Time--and ongoing
research--have convinced me that one well-timed
monovalent vaccination against parvovirus might have
saved my puppy's life--and saved me and my family a
great deal of grief.

Lisa Paddock November 15th, 2007 11:21:00 AM

I glanced at the Pfizer website and I get the gist of what the vaccine is supposed to do, but I question the way they suggest it should be part of a regualr wellness protocol. If a pet owner is diligent enough to focus on keeping the mouth of their pet healthy, it seems like this vaccine is not neccessary, especially since the time of protection is shorter than the time between annual cleanings.

It seems that this is a good way for Pfizer to cash in on the wellness trends and pro-active approach that increasing numbers of pet owners are taking, rather than put their considerable resources toward further research on the true length of time that rabies titers remain strong enough in a vaccinated animal to offer protection. Instead of helping us to stick needles in our animals less, it seems like they are merely coming up with other ways to pad the corporate bank account.

Vaccine reactions are terrible and I'm sorry that this happened to you and your clients 2 out of 2 times Dr. Khuly. I'm just curious, how did they promote this vaccine and make it seem like such a neccessity? While my own animals only get "core" vaccines as infrequently as possible while still allowing protection, I'm sure that we'll see this vaccine make an appearance at our hospital in the near future and it would be nice to know in advance what their "slickster" er, I mean representative will say when they bring us lunch.(hey, they aren't completely evil, lol)

Brian Hewitt November 15th, 2007 12:00:00 PM

Just a note that I hope you reported your experiences to the USDA's Center for Veterinary Biologics, which tracks adverse vaccine events, as well as to Pfizer. It's especially important to report problems with new drugs and vaccines. See <a href="http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/vet_biolog...">http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/vet_biolog...</a> for more information.

Mary Straus November 15th, 2007 12:47:00 PM

Well said, Brian. I actually did a small research paper on this vaccine for a school project when I was in vet tech school. I read a lot about it, and definitely was not a fan.

I'm also curious, Dr. Patty, what made you want to give it a try? I'm always wary about vaccinating for things that can be prevented in much easier, less invasive ways (though perhaps they require more effort on the part of the owner). And I'm especially wary when the vaccine is still very new.

I'm sorry this happened to you and your patients. At least you were observant (and perhaps cynical) enough to realize the cause of the problems, unlike Pfizer.

Janine November 15th, 2007 02:04:00 PM

Wow, this post makes me SO glad that I didn't try this vaccine on my puppies. I thought about it, then decided that since I have their mouths fairly well controlled with regular brushings and cleanings I'd wait until there was a bit more empirical evidence. Glad I did!

Erin November 15th, 2007 02:57:00 PM

OK, so now i'll have to confess. I didn't give the vaccine. My colleague, who is HUGE on dentistry was convinced by the veterinary dental establishment to give it a try on the dogs we see who must undergo dentistries every three to six months (in spite of brushing!) due to the severity of their disease. It's true, ours were severe cases, but they were otherwise healthy. Problem is, they were also tiny dogs. Not to take the blame off myself for one second, still, I wasn't considering this vaccine's use for my own cases. I was, however, perfectly happy to have it tried on others so that I might use it in the future.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 15th, 2007 03:57:00 PM

I'm very conservative about vaccination for my dog, but as the owner of a dog with a history of serious dental problems I'd definitely still consider this vaccine for her down the road. When I got my dog, her teeth were in such bad shape that the vet wasn't sure she'd ever be able to eat anything hard. Two and a half years later, she's doing much better and is on an every six month tooth cleaning regiment. The change in her quality of life as her dental health has improved is amazing. I can see there being a point in her life where even a not particularly safe vaccine becomes a lower risk than anesthesia. On the other hand, I'm hoping that we'll become good enough at home scaling that I won't ever have to make that choice.

Juli November 15th, 2007 09:59:00 PM

Juli, have you tried raw meaty bones? I know of tons of people who don't feed a full-time raw diet, but do feed raw meaty bones every once in a while for the dental benefits. They do an amazing job at scraping tartar from teeth, and keeping the gums healthy.

Janine November 15th, 2007 10:44:00 PM

Janine: This is one area where I like to chime in on the raw thing. For pets with severe periodontal disease there is some evidence that raw meaty bones help. Problem is, tooth fractures are also an issue. Still, when a dog has severe perio disease--I'll consider the dental fractures as the cost of doing business (if they're chips with no pulp exposure). Would you hapen to have an opinion on this? If so, which bones are least likely, in your experience, to minimize fractures?

Dr. Patty Khuly November 16th, 2007 09:23:00 AM

Dr. Khuly,

Okay, so I missed the fact that we actually do have this vaccine at our hospital, but it has been given only a couple of times. Both were severe cases of peridontal disease that was out of control with regular cleaning and brushing. The Dr. I asked about it said that there was no adverse reaction in proprtion to the reactions that you saw, but there was a local reaction with irritation, discomfort, etc. Are they using adjuvants in this vaccine?

Anyway, the DVM's were grateful for the heads up and will be watching closely if they use this vaccine in the future.

Brian Hewitt November 16th, 2007 09:47:00 AM

Hey Dr. Patty:

I would stay away from (and I personally do stay away from) beef bones, especially the weight-bearing ones like leg (marrow) bones. These are harder than dog teeth, and aren't really good to be chewing on, especially for a dog who chews hard or who has weak teeth. It's kind of ironic, since I think marrow bones are one of the most popular raw meaty bones (though they tend to be hardly meaty at all, which is part of the problem).

Chicken bones are one of the softest bones to eat, especially the ribs. Other soft bones include rabbit, quail, non-weight-bearing turkey, fish, and any of the smaller critters (mice, rats, and other rodents). The goal is to feed something that's very meaty, because ripping the meat from the bone does a good job of scrubbing the teeth. And you want to feed something large and complicated (hopefully bigger than the dog's head), so that they actually have to work at it and don't just gulp it down.

That said, soft bones like these may just be eaten relatively quickly. Something like a pork shoulder roast is excellent for teeth cleaning, especially if it still has the skin on it. For a dog with weak teeth, you may just want to take the bone away once they get down to it, which will take some time since most pork shoulder roasts are very meaty.

Also, for people who can stomach it, feeding critters that still have fur and are as completely intact as possible (such as rabbit) is a great choice, since it requires effort to get through the fur and skin to the good parts. For small dogs, something like a whole rat (which can be bought from reptile suppliers) would be a great choice as well.

I think a good compromise between sufficiently complicated (so that teeth are used and cleaned) and soft bones--for a medium or large sized dog, anyway--is a whole fryer chicken, especially if it's fed partially frozen (assuming the dog's okay with cold food, some aren't). I feed these on a semi-regular basis to Fudge, and they do require a good amount of effort to get through. I usually suggest to people that when they want to feed a raw meaty bone that they feed it as a meal (either for one of the two meals of the day, or for the whole day's amount of food). The suggested amount to feed is 2-3% of the dog's (or cat's) ideal adult body weight per day, so that would be split in half if it's going to fed as one of the two meals in a day. It's fine to give something that weighs more than that--just take it away once they've eaten about the right amount, and put it back in the fridge.

Oh yeah, and for smaller dogs, whole Cornish game hens are great--they're just small chickens.

It is still possible that a chicken bone (particularly the leg bones) may break really weak teeth, but it shouldn't be a common occurrence. Raw chicken bones are actually really flexible (you can bend them with your bare hands), so they should be a good choice for dogs with weak teeth.

Oh yeah, and I should mention that if the person feeds just meat with no bone (such as with a pork shoulder roast), it's normal to expect some loose stool from that (bone is what bulks it up). If they want to prevent that, feeding a small bony part from a chicken (chicken feet are great for this--they can be found at Asian grocery stores, and are very easy to eat) can help with the poop issue. That said, of course any dog with new food (especially one not used to raw) may have some poop issues in the beginning, but as long as it's expected it should be fine.

I hope that helped some! Let me know if you have questions.

Janine November 16th, 2007 10:51:00 AM

Some clarification...

If adding a bit of bone to a meaty meal, keep it a small amount. A little amount of bone goes a long way. 10-20% of the meal as bone should be plenty for keeping the stool firm.

Also, I forgot to mention that feeding boneless meat can also clean teeth. Something like a thick, boneless beef steak with the gristle and such can actually take some work to get through. So that's another option for people who are wary of the bones. Just keep in mind that these pieces have to be big, because otherwise more than likely the dog will just gulp it down. :)

Janine November 16th, 2007 10:59:00 AM

This may sound stupid.....but something I don't understand: where does the actual feeding of the RMB's happen? Do people feed this in their homes? Or outdoors? I mean, I live in a loft in a big city. I don't have a yard. And I don't have a particularly large loft (1200sf). I am not comfortable with the idea of giving my dog a meaty chicken bone and then have her go hide somewhere under my bed with it. I was thinking maybe her kennel, but that is also her bed *sometimes* and so that won't work. I just don't know HOW (logistically speaking) I could raw feed something like a bone.....(keep in mind, I also don't have walls - so I can't really gate off an area either).

Just curious.

Amy in Somerville November 16th, 2007 02:50:00 PM

I'm also curious: what to do if my dogs just won't eat the raw stuff? I've never said they were super smart, but it seems they should like those chicken wings I clip off for them every once in awhile...

Dr. Patty Khuly November 16th, 2007 02:54:00 PM

I personally feed my dog on a towel in the kitchen. I've taught her to stay on the towel. In the beginning, if she moved her food off of it I took it from her and put it back on the towel. Dogs are smart, and figure out that they don't get to eat unless they stay put. I throw the towel in the wash as needed.

Some people also use tarp or plastic tablecloths, which can be wiped off with vinegar to clean.

Some people feed in the crate...you can take out any bedding that's in there, and feed right on the crate tray, and wipe that off after with vinegar (vinegar is a great cleaner by the way...and harmless if ingested, which is great!).

There's also the option of feeding outside, but since you don't have a yard that wouldn't work for you.

Hope this gives you some ideas!

Janine November 16th, 2007 02:57:00 PM

Dr. Patty, have you tried very quickly searing the outside of them (not cooking the bones)? Sometimes that helps since it makes it have a stronger smell. Then you can just sear it less until they're eating it raw.

Are they mouthing and licking it? If so, they may not like the texture, so it may help to try feeding it partially or totally frozen. I do that with organs for my dog...she hates the texture of thawed organs (too squishy, I guess), but eats them no problem when they're frozen.

You can also put stuff on it that you know they like...cheese, garlic, fish oil, canned/cooked meat, etc. Rubbing it in the juices of cooked meat may help too.

And if you wanted to feed raw full-time, there is of course the option of not feeding them for a meal or two or whatever, so they're hungrier and more likely to eat it.

Most of the dogs I've heard about that don't like raw at first do grow to like it. Cats are a different story...it's notoriously difficult to switch a cat to raw as an adult, since they're often very imprinted on their current food. And of course, you can't skip meals with cats due to hepatic lipidosis, so people with cats do have to get pretty creative. But it's certainly not impossible to do! :)

Janine November 16th, 2007 03:06:00 PM

I was interested that marrow bones can be detrimental to a dog's teeth -- thanks, Janine for an informative post!
In the first months that we had our dog, I brought her back a pork leg from Chinatown. I thought it would be nice for her to have something to gnaw on. I was working in the garden, and she was going to town on the leg. About 45 minutes later, I didn't see any leg, just the dog licking her chops. I couldn't believe it: SHE HAD CHOWED DOWN THE WHOLE THING. That's when I learned she was a power chewer. She was fine, although her poops were like cement for a couple of days. My husband has forbidden any more pork legs.
Can they really eat raw fish bones? I worried they'd get caught in her throat.

lin November 16th, 2007 06:41:00 PM

You're welcome!

Yeah, some medium and large dogs have no problems getting through pork leg bones. Fudge can eat them, though it requires some effort to do. I usually let her eat some of the bone, but not all...since as you found out, eating that much bone all at once can make the poops really hard and/or crumbly. :)

Yup, fish bones are fine! Have you checked out raw fish bones? They actually almost feel like cartilage...they're really soft, and not anything like a cooked fish bone, which are pretty sharp.

Janine November 16th, 2007 06:48:00 PM

My dogs eat their RMBs outside when we're at home. If we're traveling with no decent outdoor spot, they have eaten in the bathtub (one at a time). Next time, I think I'll take a home towel and wet it so it sticks to the bottom of the tub for their footing. It's hard to rip apart something when your feet are sliding!

With one of my dogs, I had to really break up her first meaty bone (a chicken neck). Otherwise, she just looked at me and licked it. I broke it up vertebrae by vertebrae as she would eat the pieces. She got the idea and has been eating raw and/or home-cooked for 10 years now.

With raw fish: NEVER feed raw salmon from the Pacific NW to a dog. There is a parasite inside a liver fluke that lives in our salmon that causes serious, often fatal, illness (salmonosis) in dogs. It's killed by cooking the salmon thoroughly. Humans and cats apparently are not bothered by the parasite.

kabbage November 17th, 2007 12:44:00 AM

Good point about the salmon, kabbage. Freezing it for a month or so will also kill the parasite. And it's only found in wild-caught salmon (from the Pacific NW), not in farmed or Atlantic salmon.

Janine November 17th, 2007 01:11:00 AM

"This kind of vaccine reaction is uncommon—so much so that Pfizer refuses to accept that their product is the source of the reaction."

.......Of course they do. <g> I'll second the notion of reporting an adverse reaction. This database is obviously not 100% accurate, but does give practitioners and pet owners a heads up on possible reactions. The first year or two of any new vaccine is further unauthorized research, AFAIC.

.....As for RMBs, if you have a big dog there's nothing wrong with an intact beef knuckle bone. Just don't let them eat the whole thing - 15 or 20 minutes the first time around - back in the fridge - drag it out a couple of days later, another 15-20 minutes. For toy dogs, beef rib bones or pork spareribs. Queasy about parasites? Freeze for 3 weeks first, unless you have a subzero freezer - then 3 days. And make sure the pork is not shot up with anything - read the label.

Most medium and large dogs can polish off pork bones in a hurry, so no pork picnic roast bone is going to last long. The bones also loaded with fat in the inside, which may be a problem for some dogs. I buy bone in pork loin roasts, cut a lot of the meat off and use these are RMBs. It would probably also make a good dental cleaning bone for dogs who aren't large enough to consume much of it in 15 minutes.

CathyA November 17th, 2007 08:44:00 AM

Janine, thanks for the suggestion. Pico has had the occasional semi-cooked pig foot (my partner worked at a place that did occasional whole pig roasts) and she loved it. I'll try working in raw pork on a more regular basis and see what happens. I have to be careful about when I feed her such food because she is my service dog and the meat/bone leaves her with stools that are a little too soft for appropriate clean up when we are out and about. I'll try adding some chicken feet and see if that helps - she could use the extra glucosamine anyway.

Juli November 19th, 2007 02:38:00 AM

My little pom (puppy mill rescue, five years at the time) came to us with green teeth. No infections, no abscesses, but green, and many of them loose. We opted for an increased bone regime along with her raw diet, and while her teeth will never win her any beauty contests, they are now white and yellow rather than yellow and green, and all of the loose ones worked themselves out via knuckle bones.

We've also had great luck with cats using chicken necks.

I should note that in seven years (and countless dogs, both our own four and our many rescues) we've only had two chipped teeth. Both were molars, and both have been mild. We check teeth frequently for wear and tear because we're aware of the risk... but it only takes one look at my 9 year old retriever's pearly whites after 7 years of yummy bones and ZERO dental procedures (including brushing!) to know that it is worth the risk.

The most important thing is to choose the right bone for the individual dog. I have a St. Bernard who will chew chicken necks apart one vertebrae at a time, and a 35lb cattle dog mix who would try to find marrow in a boulder if given the chance. The hard chewers get knuckles only (the round shape prevents direct pressure) and the easy chewers get whatever I can get on sale.

kim November 21st, 2007 12:55:00 AM

I wanted to add, for teeth cleaning ribs are particularly useful. Pork ribs are softer and completely edible by most dogs. Beef ribs I take away before they eat the bulk of the bone since they are harder, but because they have a smaller amount of meat in between the ribs, the dogs spend more time working at it and gnawing on edges for a great teeth-cleaning workout. I let them eat the softer ends and work on the rest of the bones until they've cleaned them up nicely.

Like Janine, I also feed on towels in the house. I currently feed three Danes and a Doberman and they all know where their spot is and not to remove the food from the towel. It took a little bit of training, but when a nice, juicy hunk of pork is at stake they learn pretty fast! Then, after a few meals I just pop the towels in the washing machine and all is well.

Ingrid November 21st, 2007 08:19:00 AM

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