Pet Patients The politics of inter-dog aggression (and injury) among neighbors

November 29th, 2007  

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Those situations never end well. My aunt’s dog was dragged through a fenced gate by a pair of aggressive Dobermans from the neighborhood. There had been numerous complaints about those dogs regarding their aggressive tendencies towards not only cats and smaller dogs, but children too. Nothing got done until after my aunt’s dog, Chiquis crossed their path. One day while out on a walk the toy poodle got close to the gate and the Dobermans came out of nowhere, bit into Chiquis and literally dragged her though the space between the posts in the fence. Because the fence was locked my aunt couldn’t get to them and there was no one in the home. You can only imagine how poor Chiquis last moments on earth were like. It was truly horrible, and it took a while for my aunt to recover from it, it was very traumatizing. The Dobermans were later euthanized and the neighborhood was never the same after that incident.

ladybug1580 November 29th, 2007 09:55:00 AM

As I was reading this tale I kept looking for something which was refreshingly absent from your post today: the breed of the attacking dog. THANK YOU for not making breed the issue! As a dog trainer, I see so many under-socialized and untrained dogs coming through the doors, I wonder how more incidents like this don't happen. I've seen serious dog aggression in many breeds.

Dr. Patty, I hope you will take this opportunity to suggest to each owner that they consult a dog trainer in their area who has a lot of experience in working with dog-aggressive dogs. Most certainly the attacker needs it, as well as a solid obedience course. NO dog with such tendencies should have a collar and leash as the only barrier between itself and whatever cherished pet it decides to eat - even a dog-aggressive dog, if properly trained, should have a good, solid STAY and recall. Had this dog been trained, this entire situation would never have happened.

Also, the poodle will need some desensitization. Usually, after a dog has been attacked, it will react aggressively with other dogs because it has learned that being "nice" doesn't work. The sooner this dog is reintroduced to other dogs in a careful, controlled manner, the better the chances that this dog will not become dangerous itself.

Shame upon the owner of the attacker, who had that dog out and about on a collar which allowed escape! Had that dog been wearing a properly fitted choke or prong collar, you would have been writing about something else today. I know I'm probably in for it now, as there are many in the field of dog training and many more non-trainers who think such collars are nothing short of instruments of torture (which neither is, if properly employed). but neither one, if properly fit, can be slipped, and both can yield the control a smaller owner of a large dog needs in panic situations.

The fallout from such an incident can be terrible for both owners, but in addition to the physical and psychological trauma and unrest in the neighborhood, if the attacking dog is declared dangerous, that dog's owner can kiss his/her homeowner's insurance goodbye, and subsequently, the mortgage. As if becoming the neighborhood pariah weren't enough...

Oh, and just one more observation - a dog killing cats really and truly has nothing to do with a dog attacking other dogs, and dog-to-animal aggression is unrelated to dog-to-human aggression. Dogs are hunters by nature and if they are not raised with cats or socialized with them, they will view them as prey. Others of it's own species should not trigger prey drive - not if the dog is socialized. The only thing which the cat-killing incident(s) indicate is a lack of the owner's control over the dog. Problem owners make problem dogs, not the other way around.

I do hope both owners will seek assistance from a qualified dog trainer. It's probably a better investment than paying lawyers, especially if the attacker's owner is willing to pay the vet bills.

Tracy D November 29th, 2007 10:34:00 AM

On numerous occasions, I have had people's dogs charge at my dog on leash only to have my dog respond with curled lips and snarls. This could have been curbed with obedience classes to some extent on their end, but I have an intact confirmation dog which seems to trigger some of these encounters.

Considering that my dog exceeds half my weight, I do in fact outfit him with a properly fitted prong collar even though he is reliable 90% of the time on a nylon slip collar. This is mostly due to my dog's high prey drive.

The previous poster on how one traumatic experience can affect the dog is correct as an off leash dog that mounted my dog caused a dog fight. It made my dog very agitated when he saw dogs he was familiar with as well and he initiated a fight a week after the incident with our neighbour's dog who is a buddy of his. It has also made me very wary of other dogs and their owners and I am sure my dog can sense my apprehension which puts his guard up too.

The most recent incident was a boxer that noticed us passing by and escaped it's owner when they were trying to tie it out to the front porch, a 9 year old girl who had no leash). The female boxer took one sniff of my dog and attacked and my dog stood his ground and fought back. I was able to gain control of my dog and get him off the boxer, but the little girl was struggling tohold onto her boxer.

I am frustrated about dogs that run around off leash with lazy owners who don't bother to train their dogs properly. The next time I see that boxer, I WON'T be very courteous as it will be seeing the sole of my hiking boot.

tintallie November 29th, 2007 11:30:00 AM

In this case, the owner of the dog (a purebred whose breed was purposely omitted in case you're wondering--I don't like to make breed an issue either) was using a slip collar because of a recent collar-related skin infection. I think I convinced her to use a proper choke from now on. And I agree--predatory, inter-dog, and dog-on-human dominance aggression are independently distinguishable entities. Fear aggression is likely going to be this poodle's response. But she has precious little dog interaction going on in her life so I suspect her owner's not going to consider hiring a trainer.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 29th, 2007 12:13:00 PM

The worst BDLD I ever saw was between a son-in-law's dogs and his inlaws' little dog. The little dog, a schnauzer, lost almost all the skin on his back and needed multiple surgeries and a lengthy hospitalization. He recovered completely, but I don't know that the family ever did. There was much drama, lawyers, etc. It was very sad.

katie November 29th, 2007 12:59:00 PM

I'll add my thanks for you not making breed an issue, and for clearly stating that dog to cat, dog to dog, and dog to human aggression are not related. One of the scariest trends (of all the scary trends lately) in dog legislation is the expansion of "dangerous dog" definition to include dogs who attack other animals. A dog aggressive dog is a big problem, but it's not a public safety problem.

As the owner of Giant breed dogs, the possibility of this sort of incident is ALWAYS on my mind. Even though my dogs are well trained, ridiculously well socialized and unrelentingly friendly I also am constantly aware that they are DOGS. Not only that, but dogs who are big and strong enough to inflict horrible damage to anything without even trying. In a situation like the one in this story - where my dogs were off my property and not under my control, however briefly or accidentally, and attacked and injured someone's pet - it seems like a no-brainer to me that I would be totally liable for the damages. It would be a very expensive lesson that I need to change my procedures, my training methods and/or tools, and also maybe re-think my breeding program. Fortunately, in my 30+ years of having Danes it has never happened. But there's always tomorrow...

However, I cannot BEGIN to count the number of times that smaller dogs have either invaded my dog's space, or actually attacked my dogs. From the little beagle cross our neighbor had just adopted from the shelter and who - while the neighbor and my husband were standing right there watching, and all our dogs were at our side of the fence investigating the newcomer - went up and over the fence and was in amongst our dogs faster than I can write that; to numerous instances of smaller dogs (usually terriers) running up and actually biting my dogs on the legs; to one memorable occasion of my Dane lowering her head to sniff at a Westie who had approached her and when she lifted her head the Westie was literally hanging onto her lip!! Thank Goodness (and thank my wonderful dogs) - in not one of those cases has any of my dogs chosen to retaliate. If there was any blood it was coming from my dog, and it was very minor.

One of my MAJOR and unending pet peeves is the fact that many small dog owners don't understand that when their little dog threatens or challenges a larger dog, the larger dog may well see it as a legitimate threat. As humans, we understand that the schnauzer can't possibly do any serious harm to the German Shepherd. But dogs don't see it that way - they all speak the same language and a threat is a threat. The smaller dog often provokes the incident which may result in its death. But the bigger dog will always be blamed.

Barb November 29th, 2007 03:10:00 PM

As the owner of a small dog, this is my worst fear. Me and my dog are generally 'keep to ourselves' types. And I have tried taking her to the dog park for socialization to no avail. She was steam-rolled and pounced on by out-of-control small, medium and large breed dogs (the worst offenders being large breed puppies that are only 5 to 10 months old and totally out of control) looking to "play". Now, she is 100% terrified of all dogs. Small to large - doesn't matter. She hides, lifts her gums, pants.....she's generally miserable. She got swatted by an old male cat we were cat-sitting for and now she's afraid of cats.

How do I begin to work on this, other than avoiding all dog and cat interactions? I've had a friend come over with 2 happy-go-lucky Chihuahuas, and she did OK after about 3 hours of "hanging out". But she definitely is NOT playing or having fun. It breaks my heart because in every other way she is a very laid back, snuggly dog.

Amy in Somerville November 29th, 2007 03:21:00 PM

my poor cocker-cavalier received a puncture wound from a rott just because we happened to walk past it at my apartment complex. it was minor but still scary, and in that moment despite the years spent working in the vet clinic, i didn't know what to do. all i could do was yell at the owner to get her dog. i was afraid the rott thought he was protecting her and i didn't know how to safely rescue my dog and protect myself. ugh.

what about when the conflict is among your own dogs? my sister was bitten last night attempting to remove hildy--or as i call her, godzilla--a terrier they rescued from a pet store from her attack on our lab shepard. the big dogs beat her up and stole her food in the pet store she lived in for months and months...now she's food agressive and also attacks when she's tired. she spends a lot of time crated as a result. any tips to help her past this? there's also a beagle-hound in the mix who is sad to have been de-throned as the baby. and when i bring my dog to visit too, it's quite the adventure!

Sarah November 29th, 2007 03:54:00 PM

I hear ya, Barb--my bullmastiff is the target of every mean little chihuahua/jack russell terrier/etc that comes around off leash or on the long end of a flexi. It's frightening! I really should start walking him with a can of citronella spray or something.

abc November 29th, 2007 06:30:00 PM

I agree with many of the previous posts. Breed is not the issue, or shouldn't be at least. It's people who don't have control of their dogs. Big dogs, little dogs, it doesn't matter. Your dog needs to be on a secure collar and have enough obedience training to listen. I own two purebred GSDs. Both are rescues with a myriad of issues, and together they outweigh me. They wear prongs, otherwise I could get dragged if (for some reason) they decided to forget all their obedience and take off after something...especially the rabbits we have around here.

I fear small dogs. Not because they're going to cause injury to my shepherds, but because if they start something, they could be killed. My dogs are not going to accept a little terrier attacking them or me and would happily work together to fight back. They get along great with little dogs normally, but if one runs up and bites them, it's on because that's dogs. Even if my dogs are on leash, they'll get blamed and people will want me to euthanize them. It's ridiculous.

lindabcs November 29th, 2007 06:38:00 PM

My little dog wags his tail at other dogs, and mostly gets a tail wag back, no matter the other dog's size. If only all dogs were like that.

A massive dog tried to eat him once, but luckily someone was there to drag him away - it was nasty for a moment. And my dog wouldnt walk along that part of footpath for weeks after. If you know a dog is aggressive, keep them under control when out in public. Or part with them.

Seems to be a certain image to owning a potentially aggressive breed. Maybe it feels good to be guarded by a dog. Not saying that was the case here, but it seems to be prevalent.

Robin November 29th, 2007 07:24:00 PM

I had a fairly large dog that I'd leash trained pretty good, or so I thought. She was behaving fine until a fenced dog rushed his fence, so my dog rushed the fence too. I am not small, and was pretty strong back then, so if I squatted I could hold her back, except the stupid leash broke! Supposedly it was 'the strongest leash available' according to the Pet Smart salesperson.

I told my coworker about it, since he trained police dogs part time. He recommended the pronged collar since my girl had a muscular enough neck. There were a few more incidents when she pulled on it, when she saw another dog, but she stopped after a few with the prongs.

She was super friendly around all people, and wagged her tail at strangers at the door, begging to be petted, so I didn't realize how aggressive she'd be around other dogs until that incident. I'll use prong collars again if I have a large dog with a strong neck, especially since I'm weaker with a bum knee. And I'll expose my new dog (as a pup) to other dogs a lot more than I did with my former dog so hopefully it will desensitize it.

My neighborhood has a lot of unleashed/unfenced dogs that chase me while I'm bike riding. The largest was around 50lbs, and the smallest was a about 8lbs, with many in between. Would a water pistol filled with ammonia, or hot pepper spray protect me while not permanently damaging the dog?

Sherri November 29th, 2007 08:53:00 PM

A friend of mine has a neighbor who was prone to trespassing, where such trespassing took the form of "walk across friend's lawn with her dog, allowing her dog to go to the bathroom on it, and ignoring repeated requests from my friend to STOP THAT ALREADY, and warnings that my friend had a large dog who didn't like the invasion of his territory." Her dog, a toy poodle, is dog-aggressive, and would snarl and bark at my friend's dog as they passed the house windows.

One day the neighbor decided to trespass just as my friend's (large) dog came out for a bathroom break, and was all surprised when her poodle was attacked. (Not, fortunately, too badly injured.)

The police she called were not amused by her admission of repeated trespassing in the face of requests to stop and repeated warnings about the dog.

Laura November 29th, 2007 09:00:00 PM

Agadore is as far from alpha as you will ever get. Then I moved in next to an aggressive dog. The dog stalked and finally attacked him. Never bit him, but put him to the ground. All Agadore was doing was walking on our OWN property. This dog was used to crapping on my lawn, and when I moved in, this upset the applecart, I guess. Anyway....Agadore now romps in his own yard surrounded by a 5 ft fence.

Beaner wears a prong collar, because even though we've been through obedience, there is no way I could hang on to him if a rabbit darted. The prong gives me an advantage and allows me to walk him.

Agadore is NOT ANYTHING aggressive.... but about a week ago he and Beaner cornered a rabbit and killed it. I have no doubt they would do the same to a cat. They aren't vicious- they're dogs.

agadore's mama November 29th, 2007 09:20:00 PM

I disagree with Barb when she says, "A dog aggressive dog is a big problem, but it's not a public safety problem." If it's not managed well, a dog-aggressive dog can very easily be a public safety problem. Think of this situation: small child on either leash when a dog-aggressive dog goes after a dog being walked down its street. If the child tries to separate the dogs (natural move in an uneducated child and many of us semi-educated adults would do the same), that child is likely to be injured, perhaps severely.

We have (maybe had, haven't seen the dog in a while) a dog-aggressive dog 3 houses down from my house. That dog has bitten multiple dogs in the neighborhood, including one of mine. Multiple people have complained to animal control about the dog, but we "need" one more reported with formal complaint incident of dog-on-dog damage to get the dog declared dangerous. The dog is dangerous in our neighborhood. One of the adults in the family has limited mobility, so gates are open longer when he enters/exits the yard. They have 3yo twins and 2 or 3 other kids under the age of 10, which means gates are more likely to be left open accidentally. The whole freakin' family has consistently left gates open, even when time in Animal Control Court was pending. Heck, the dog was seen running loose just after (as in 1 hour later) the owner got out of ACC.

This IS a public safety issue. If the dog is managed the way it has been, someone will get bitten.

kabbage November 30th, 2007 10:43:00 AM

kabbage: The biggest problem with inter-dog aggression and humans is the reality of how these fights get broken up: Hands, feet, legs get ino it. Frail people are dragged to the ground or caught up in leashes. Lunging dogs attack little ones even after their owners scoop them up into their arms. I've seen the worst wounds on my clients after dog fights--but, you're right, we don't tend to think of inter-dog aggression as a public health issue. Thanks for reminding us.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 30th, 2007 10:56:00 AM

Addy was not socialized with other dogs (or with people, much, either) from age three months to age one year, when I got her. At first she was fear-aggressive towards other dogs; gradually she has learned that other dogs are FUN to play with. So, now, she wants to play with almost any dog she sees.

But she has no idea how to greet another dog politely, and no confidence. The usual result is that she approaches in a very bouncy, whole-back-half-wagging, play-bowing manner--while vocalizing in the most amazing and alarming way. Neither the dogs nor their human companions know what to make of it, or her. She's 12.5 pounds, I keep her on a good strong leash and flat collar, I keep aware, and I'm working hard on exposing her to dogs on a regular basis, teaching her that there's more fun to be had being quite around them than yelling her head off, and we've really made a lot of progress. If the other owner will cooperate with me, and has the time, we can work on a gradual introduction. The circle of dogs that Addy knows and is calm with, and her willingness to consider that a new dog might not be TOO scary, is definitely increasing.

But every time I can't control the situation, either because the other dog is off leash, or because its idiot owner cheerily assures me, "Oh, my dog is great with other dogs!" and the other dog barges right ahead into Addy's space, and she panics, we hae a setback. And when that "friendly" off-leash dog is actually aggressive, we have a big setback.

And the problem, I'm told, is that little dogs are aggressive, yappy, and untrained. It never seems to occur to these idiots that for a twelve-pound dog, having an unfamilar hundred-pound Lab running at you, regardless of its intentions, might be genuinely and legitimately scary. That's even if the twelve-pound dog didn't have Addy's experience of social deprivation for nine months, and consequent adjmustment problems. And those problems aren't her fault--or, I might add, mine. We're working on it. We're making progress. But for cryin' out loud, give the little dog a chance. I don't take her to off-leash parks for a REASON.

Lis November 30th, 2007 11:08:00 AM

Many thank yous to those of you who to declined to add the breeds.

What about the number of people who their dogs off leash? I can not count the number of times my dog is approached by a strange dog who is off leash when mine has what amounts to a noose around his neck. For some reason the fact that he is over 100 punds and I'm screaming "get your dog" has resulted in my dog being called vicious, me getting dirty looks and most often being totally ignored. I am a responsible owner and would pay vet bills if my dog got loose and attacked another dog but, not so sure if its one that was off leash and came at us. Like most things this is most often a result the human's ignorance sadly not the animal that gets blamed.
P.S. this might be a totally different topic but imvho those "puppy parks" are an accident waiting to happen

Jules November 30th, 2007 12:29:00 PM

The fact that this dog had attacked cats previously does give some clues to his attack on the small poodle. The main reason many trainers will recommend that big dogs are not left unsupervised with much small dogs has to do with predatory drift. Dogs automatically recognize movement in small animals and can do into predatory mode. Unfortunately this can happen with large dogs playing or watching a smaller dog. It is more likely in larger dogs with high prey drives. This does not mean all big dogs with prey drive will attack small dogs. It just means that it CAN happen, and should always been in the back of your mind when you mix the sizes of dogs you have interacting.

Here is some good info:
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog_library/size_di...

Meg November 30th, 2007 01:22:00 PM

I think what is really interesting about all of this (I'm trying not to take the "yappy small dog" slams personally) is most of the people who have posted seem genuinely concerned about proper training and are frustrated with the people in the park/neighborhood that could care less! A real frustration for me are the people Lis mentioned, the dog owners (of many different sized dogs) who shout at me (while I am scrambling to pick up my dog who is harness, but my arms are full) across a field "don't worry, he's Frrrrrriedlyyyyy...." while their dog is barreling at Lottie, full speed. My dog happens to be terrified of ALL dogs, she doesn't discriminate based on breed or size. If the dog is spazzy/boisterous/excited, she is like a deer in headlights. Or worse, she tries to bolt like a scared rabbit.
Lottie's FAVORITE dog-park dogs are old, uninterested and slow moving. There's an old, fat Frenchie who is a mean old fart. All the other dog-park dogs are afraid of her, she likes Lottie, so Lottie hides behind/beside her. The Frenchie doesn't acknowledge her, and that works for Lottie. There's also an old Dane named Frank that Lottie likes, she hides under him in a little ball and Frank just sits there. Those are what I consider "small steps" to dog interaction, and thankfully their owners don't judge me. I'm doing the best I can with a dog that is not aware that she is *ahem* a DOG.
I guess my point is, don't label the dogs, label the owners. I love all dogs- as long as they are well-behaved. I could care less about breed or size and I fight every day (I walk through the park on my way home) to not pass judgment on an entire breed based on that daily interaction, no matter how much is wears me down.

Amy in Somerville November 30th, 2007 01:29:00 PM

I'm a pit bull owner. One of my dogs is now extremely fear-aggressive because he's been jumped so many times by other dogs. My female dog would bounce back, but this dog is soft and timid as it is. He's never been severely hurt (he had puncture wounds and swelling that required antibiotics, but nothing that needed more serious treatment), but it's been so scary and so infuriating for me that I know he's been traumatized by my reactions.

One of the worst experiences of my life was when I was walking my two dogs together (which I never do anymore following this experience) and an off-leash, unsupervised sheepdog came out of his yard, across another yard, into the street, and grabbed my dog. I couldn't do anything except yell. I was concentrating on holding my fighting dog in one hand, my not fighting but plenty ready dog in the other hand. I'd pull my dog back, and the sheepdog would keep coming. I was so upset. My dog has never been the same since, even though we did quite a bit of desensitization work and he's certainly better.

It makes me so angry and so sad.

katie November 30th, 2007 05:11:00 PM

I wish all owners would at least use a martingale collar. It is a choke collar but is limiting and can't cut off a dogs airway completely like a regular choke can (adjusted properly) but it tightens up enough so they can't slip out of them either. Also known as humane chokes or sleddog collars. Lupine makes some nice ones. (flat nylon like a regular collar too)

Equipment failure sucks and I had a regular choke break on me once. Fortunatly my dog at that time did know stay so the chained husky taunting him didn't get any satisfaction.

ALL dogs are potentially aggressive so it isn't a breed issue as much as an owner control issue. I have had akitas for 15 years now and believe me even no matter which dog starts something the akita will get blamed. I've also had the small dogs challenging my big one. (and I own a reactive small dog so manage her responsibly.)

So many people are clueless about the signals their dogs are throwing off to mine. Akitas can be tough with other dogs too but my theory is that many akita owners stop socializing them once they start to get big. Of course some akitas are plain dog aggressive but so are some goldens I know. Knowing your dog is EXTREMLY important. Even a dog friendly dog will not like EVERY dog they meet. I am very selective about the dogs I let Jack play with. Matching playstyles is important.

I avoid problems by not going to dog parks, appropriate socializing as much as possible and then more, and making sure I have my dog under control with training and the proper tools. I frequently use a head collar on my current akita because I have noticed many people think it is cute to stick their face right into his. Sure he is cute but do you realize what that direct eye to eye contact might get you with a dog that doesn't know you? Sheesh! (with a head collar I can pull his face away from theirs quickly)

I hate the people that THINK they have verbal control with their off leash dog but they really don't. I also hate that people assume all dogs are going to be friendly to theirs when their dog stops to say hello. (usually inappropriately.) They get miffed when you say get your dog. I NEVER let my dog say hello to some strangers dog because they want to. "Oh let's say hello" as they are on their walk. Sorry we are in training is my standard avoidence phrase. I don't know how good their dog is and I don't know if it is healthy either. No thanks.

I hope the poodle makes a quick recovery and that all the owners stay sane.

Marie November 30th, 2007 06:44:00 PM

Amy, retrievers are notorius for getting too much in other dogs spaces and faces. Retrievers often have no sense of personal space and greet every other dog as if they also have no sense of personal space. In typical dog language, it's quite rude. (And, unfortunately, retriever owners are usually clueless about this.) Suzanne Clothier has a great article about this called something like, "But He's Just Being Friendly." Google it and I'm sure you'll find it.

I've gotten strange looks or comments for scolding my retrievers for getting in other dogs faces or body space and have had to explain the issue. Then the other dog owner usually gets an enlightened look on their faces as they mentally compare retriever approaches compared to, say, a herding dog.

A piece of advice I have for you is to avoid dog parks like the plague and perhaps seek out dog training clubs for like-minded handlers with well-mannered dogs so you can comfortably socialize your small dog. (Not all clubs are created equal, so scout them out in advance without your dog. I've had my own bad experiences equal to any of yours I'm sure -- at a DTC.) Many of us don't ever turn our dogs loose with a group of dogs past the puppy classes we take our dogs to. They learn to be comfortable in the company of other dogs without an overwhelming need to interact with them.

My retrievers love small dogs. The middle-aged one once had a min-pin bouncing under him and other than wondering "what the heck?" and leaping away, didn't react. The young one loves little dogs -- I think he thinks he's a little dog. He's too curious, but he just wants to sniff and lick 'em.

:-)

Deanna December 1st, 2007 10:49:00 PM

"I wish all owners would at least use a martingale collar. It is a choke collar but is limiting and can't cut off a dogs airway completely like a regular choke can (adjusted properly) but it tightens up enough so they can't slip out of them either. Also known as humane chokes or sleddog collars. Lupine makes some nice ones. (flat nylon like a regular collar too) "

Every owner? Every dog? Really?

Lis December 2nd, 2007 08:56:00 AM

We have the opposite issue... out Saint Bernard gets attacked by little dogs, and our little dog will take the slightest opportunity to attack big dogs and thus needs to be managed appropriately.

I agree with the note about prong and choke collars. Chokes for the soft and easy dogs, prongs for the hard headed ones. However, we use only harnesses for any dog under 20lbs, backed up by a nylon slip. Those tiny little tracheas just make make me far too nervous, and we find physical correction generally unnecessary for those little pups.

Kim December 2nd, 2007 03:09:00 PM

I haven't been to a dog park in over a year (since I became acutely aware that this was never going to "work" with my dog). However, the path I take home cuts through a public park that is LARGE and it is NOT techinically a dog park. There is no perimeter fence and lots of playing fields. There is a casual 'dog policy' that is not enforced ot written down and there are signs everywhere saying "dogs must be leashed". But, of course you get the person who is playing frisbee or whatever, and I turna blind eye. But for every well-behaved dog that IS under voice control, there is a spazzy, wound-up goof ball that is just elated to see me or my dog. And a person screaming "don't worry!!!!"......lol.....too late! Plus, your dog just got my coat filthy! Lol.....

The only other path home is under an overpass, so I will continue ot walk along the edge of this park. I just walk home on 'high alert'.

Amy in Somerville December 3rd, 2007 09:17:00 AM

Lis,

I am unsure how to take your questions. It is sarcasm or genuine?

I said that because so many dogs can and do slip regular collars all to often causing dog fights, car vs dog accidents, or missing dog heartache.

Harnesses are fine to as long as the dog can't slip it. (you would be amazed at the talent of some dogs in this department)

I don't even use a head collar without a back up nylon choke collar either.

Does that define my comment better?

Marie December 3rd, 2007 07:42:00 PM

Yes, Marie, it really does clarify beautifully that you really do mean to say that every dog owner should use on every dog one specific type of collar that you personally happen to feel is the best, regardless of the specific issues that may affect some individual dogs who aren't yours and whose issues you do not know. That's really pretty breathtaking.

There are certainly exceptions, but in general, a dog cannot slip out of a properly fitted flat buckle collar. I think there are more issues and more exceptions with harnesses, but again, in general, if properly fitted, most dogs won't slip them. I will say that it took me some practice to get Addy's car harness fitted properly, while getting her collar fitted properly was fairly easy, and is easy to check for continued correct fit on a regular basis.

Lis December 3rd, 2007 10:51:00 PM

Lis,

I am unsure what I did to rankle you. My only point was that people need to be more aware of the fit of whatever tool they use or prefer. It's not about which tool I think is best. I meant I wish more people were aware of the martingale as a great option to a regular collar to prevent collar slipage. Obviously evey pet has different issues to address around collar or harness use as well.

Perhaps I came across more forceful about martingales in my original post than I intended to be. Just fustration as a pet owner who's dog has been attacked by dogs slipping collars over the years. (and former fustration as the vet tech I was that got to chase the pets that slipped collars in the parking lot as well)

I am sorry for whatever slight I sent your way.

Marie December 4th, 2007 02:14:00 PM

Marie, you may have meant that people need to be more careful about the fit of whatever tool they use, but what you said was that every owner needed to use a martingale--and when I asked if that was really what you meant, you said it was. That was why I specifically addressed the issue of fit--which you did not actually mention in your comment that I was responding to.

Lis December 4th, 2007 08:33:00 PM

You are right, I should have been more clear. The term "would at least use" really meant a whole lot more in my head.

Perhaps it wasn't your intent, but it felt more like an attack on me than a request for clarification.

I will try to be much more clear if I comment in the future.

Marie December 5th, 2007 06:32:00 AM

Communication is a wonderful thing; wouldn't it be nice if we achieved it more often? :) It appears that our thinking is a lot more similar than either of us was able to deduce from each other's words.

Lis December 5th, 2007 10:25:00 AM

Although I still feel that it isn't always the breed that causes inter-male aggression, I do believe that it is a combination of owner and genetics.

My golden retriever (who is intact because of conformation) was attacked at a pet store as I was taking off my mittens (it was warm inside) and my left hand got bitten by a boxer. After first aid was administered and I was well enough to walk home, we got attacked a SECOND time by a dog that looked like an AmStaff Bull Terrier. The 2nd attack, the dog jumped out of a hatch of a parked car and went straight for my dog.

AM I pissed off? yes..more so at the 2nd dog because the owners didn't exchange information and I only noticed as I walked away that my dog had a puncture wound near its eye and a gash/tear on his ear. I yelled out for them to get their dog because I had JUST GOTTEN A DOG BITE.

I am filing reports to animal control.

tintallie December 9th, 2007 10:33:00 PM

In the animal kingdom it is far from a perfect world. My significant other is extremely attached to a highly intelligent loving boxer, terrier mix. She came to him when she was 3 years old, and all her free ranging farm life habits had been set. She is an Alpha all the way, and she is aggressive. Although not aggressive towards people, but unpredictable with other dogs. If only we could determine the ones she will play with over the ones she hates. I am upset about a few instances where she has gone after other dogs, and her stature is one where she is rarely the injured one. It is costly and horrible for everyone. A recent incident has upset me greatly and my boyfriend has not offered any solutions to this distress. I love this dog, but I'm not sure I want the constant work that it takes to own her.

Sandy October 21st, 2008 01:50:00 PM

I know I'm necroposting but I just wanted to say that bsl is bs. When we were attempting to walk my (very dog aggressive as a young dog) west highland terrier early in the morning, we passed another owner walking three rottweilers- one on a lead, two off. My dog started going nuts, the two rottweilers stopped and I was certain all hell was going to break loose. One word from the owner and his dogs walked on with  him, leaving the yappy terrier behind. I've noticed the same thing with most of the other rottweiler owners and other big 'scary' dog breeds, they're more likely to be trained enough to ignore aggression than, say, a golden retriever or a collie.

simba June 12th, 2009 02:09:27 PM

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