Vet P.O.V. Remy, Barbaro and how far we should go…

December 1st, 2007  

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Nicely said.

Sylvia December 1st, 2007 09:44:00 AM

Dr Patty, May I ask what you mean by "less likely he'll survive should his recovery plateau for days at this point."? Mari Lynn

Mari Lynn December 1st, 2007 10:20:00 AM

Dr. Patty, I must admit I had many of the same questions here about your efforts with the little kitty, Helen. Not that she's in pain, but I did question the effort to rehabilitate a little brain damaged kitty.

I know how hard it is, though, when an animal's condition shows improvement. In 1993, for my 6 year old lab Max, I undertook a form of treatment that was at the time just being tested by LSU Vet School. He was diagnosed by them with pythiosis, and they offered to make the meds available to me at cost. If I remember correctly, the school was one of the first at the time doing trials of anti-fungal meds for this disease (and was one of the few places that knew of it).

Max had to take meds and get nutrition. Since the disease creates a mass in the stomach, they told me he essentially was not hungry, so he didn't want to eat. How he hated having food force fed to him! He was put on a prescription canned food but also he was to get the very best food a doggie could want: chicken livers, Ensure, ice cream - I was basically told to just get anything high cal and high fat into him, anything he would take. But often I had to do this by syringe, and it was a struggle.

He gained weight, though, and in our 8 weeks of treatment (with 300 mile trips back and forth to Baton Rouge ever other week), he did seem to be coming around. One night though, it was a particular struggle to get some food into him. He disappeared out of the yard for a while that night, something he never did - and the next morning he was lying by the bed, dead.

I've always thought that he just got tired of the discomfort, and of being sick and fatigued.

I realize this hasn't anything to do with the massive pain your clients' lab is suffering, but it's my experience with extraordinary efforts.

I hope the owners can do what is best for their dog.

Rita

Rita December 1st, 2007 01:03:00 PM

Darn, in the long post that I made I forgot to say that the one thing that I took away from the experience with my Max was the hope that our efforts provided LSU with some data and information, along with an awareness of the disease in the students treating Max, to allow them to develop more and better treatments or preventive medicines for that awful disease. That was the parallel with the subject of your post.

Rita

Rita December 1st, 2007 01:08:00 PM

Well said, Dr Patty. Sometimes the best we can do is to offer a quicker, less painful death. Which is something we are very slow to offer to humans, unfortunately.

As a sideline, my vote for top drug of the decade would be for Metacam, now that it has approval - along with more accurate dosing info) for cats and birds.

jcat December 1st, 2007 03:47:00 PM

Mari Lynn, I suppose that dogs are affected by opiates somewhat the same way that humans
are. According to what some nurses have told me, and experiences with close relatives who
were in intensive care, besides relieving pain, morphine, in particular, has a side effect of
supressing respiration, so in humans, it allows a person who is already dying to die comfortably,
without a sensation of suffocating. Remember that people can have advance directives
that say after a certain point they do not want extraordinary measures, such as breathing
machines, used to keep them alive. But, even under those circumstances, medicine can
relieve pain for people or animals.

Miss Kitty's Mom December 1st, 2007 05:37:00 PM

more on what miss kitty's mom said----My dad was on morphine for his end stage cancer of everything... he was wincing in pain, and when I asked the nurse why he was in pain, she said " If we up his morphine, he will be asleep, and he won't be able to be with his visitors". Um, when did the nurse lose her FOCUS? The important thing here is keeping the patient comfortable, not keeping him alive for the visitors. We upped his morphine, he was out of pain, and died a few hours later.

I am all for being kind and compassionate... as long as no one suffers. If this pup is out of it on morphine, and his poor owners think they are doing what is right, and it comforts them, then so be it. But it would be great if the owners could take a deep breath and hold their pup and let him go. In the end, the pup is probably gonna die. The only thing we can do is be gentle, kind, and be big enough to let him go.

AGADORE'S MAMA December 1st, 2007 07:10:00 PM

I used to think the way most of you do. It was easy for me to step back, assess the current quality of life, and wish to end the suffering ASAP. Two things happened that made me change my mind:

1. Sundae. A 12 year old Siamese with Fatty Liver Disease (caused by Pancreatitis). She was the sickest animal I had ever seen in my short time as a tech. She was face-planted in her kennel, clearly suffering, probably in pain, and certainly nauseous beyond belief. She was the YELLOWEST cat I have ever seen (icterus caused by her failing liver). Her owner was on the fence at that point, not sure if she should put her kitty through much more. I think if she could have, Sundae would have asked us to end her suffering. I was silently praying mom would let us euthanize as it was I that had to administer every injection, replace every IV and force feed her. I couldn't take it anymore! Then my vet talked Sundae's mom into surgery to place a tube directly into her intestines. I was HORRIFIED that he would even consider putting that cat through anymore treatment and I was very angry with him! I was convinced she was not going to live. But a few days after the tube placement she began to turn around! There were certainly up and downs and days when we thought the outcome was not going to be good. After a few weeks in the hospital,( with seriously intensive care), she went home to a very grateful mom! The first time Sundae ate on her own (just a few kibbles) I cried. I was so happy for them both- and have seen Sundae recently for dentistries and wellness checks. She is doing great! From that experience I have learned that even the most hopless of cases can turn around and it is really up to the pet-parents (and nature) to decide when it is time. Our job as veterinary proffesionals is to support the patient as best we can with excellent pain management and nursing care and keep the parents well informed.

2. Forrest. My own cat with unidentified liver disease who was happy and comfortable but had almost entirely stopped eating. She arrested while we took biopsies of her liver to determine the cause of her anorexia. We resucitated her successfully. I even brought her home the same night to monitor her. She was weak but walking around and giving me headbutts the next morning. Then she went downhill. She was basically in a coma but I did everything to keep her alive. Blood transfusions, constant rate infusions of meds to keep her blood pressure up, oxygen therapy, all kinds of drugs... Even though she was basically in a coma at that point. I let it go on until it was obvious that her heart was failing and she was in distress- only then did I euthanize. I learned from that experience how hard it is, as the parent of the pet in question ,to step back and be objective.

Now when we have those hopless, "you-can't-possibly-be-serious-about-treating-this?!" cases I try to remember these to cases and have hope and compassion for the parent's sake.

Meghan RAHT December 1st, 2007 08:24:00 PM

It is so hard to decide when it is the right time to let a beloved animal go. I usually end up feeling guillty for letting it go on too long and simultaneously guilty for giving up.

On the other side of the coin, who gets to decide. I am on some lists devoted to animal legislation. Now and then people talk about having elderly animals, particularly horses, that they can't keep weight on and which appear to be in poor condition. They fear persecution by animal control. Some reported euthanizing animals that they felt were doing OK but didn't look great in fear of cruelty prosecution. Here is a blog reporting on two incidents in which people were prosecuted - it happens more often than you would think. http://loostales.blogspot.com/2007_10_21_archive.h...

Recently there have been several reports of people being charged with cruelty for NOT euthanizing an elderly animal. Here is an excerpt from a news report on a case in Morris, NJ.

"The Button family had been prepared to fight the allegation that they underfed their 14-year-old dog, Bobby Joe, a canine they raised from a puppy. The Labrador-terrier mix was skinny and arthritic, and the family expected he would live out his life at their home, where one day he would be buried.

But in September the county SPCA charged three members of the Button family with animal cruelty, took Bobby Joe away and had him euthanized. The family of eight learned of the dog's death in a message Osorio left on their answering machine Sept. 24, James Button said.

"Who gives them the authority to decide to kill a family pet of 14 years? It's outrageous," James But ton said. "He was a happy dog. He spent his whole life here. There was no reason whatsoever to kill this dog."

"It was a total, total overreaction," said the Buttons' attorney, Peter Gilbreth.

In a Sept. 17 letter giving St. Hubert's Animal Welfare Center permission to put the dog to sleep, Osorio wrote that he had consulted with Morris County Assistant Prosecutor Brian DiGiacomo, and they agreed with a veterinarian's recommendation to euthanize Billy Joe.

But Button said a veterinarian he asked to evaluate the dog wasn't given the chance. Veterinarian David Howard said yesterday he never got to see Billy Joe but, based on photographs he reviewed, the dog simply appeared old and skinny. "

Linda H December 2nd, 2007 12:28:00 AM

With my cat, I had to ask the vet to put him down, even though it was never mentioned. He (the cat) was 15 yo, had a heart murmur his whole life, and now had congestive heart failure. He had been fitting on and off all day, and when I saw him, was unconscious. I touched his ears and got no response, when he usually hated that and reacted by pulling his head away. They agreed he would not get any better, so they added the medication to his drip - at least there was no further injection needed, although I doubt he would have felt it.

So, when does the vet speak up? Or should they at all? Should they let the owner ponder on it in their own time, or should the vet "plant the seed" of euthanasia?

Robin December 2nd, 2007 07:25:00 PM

I think the vet needs to make it clear in some way that euthanasia is an option (at least in cases with a poor prognosis or where the animal is suffering or where cost may be a factor in treatment). This is just so that the owner knows that they can approach the subject and not feel guilty.

I think some people don't want to be the first to mention it because they feel the will be judged by the vet or other vet staff. They also probably feel guilty for even thinking about "giving up" on their beloved pet.

Having said that, I think sometimes vets don't want to "push" (or even mention euthanasia) an owner into euthanasia because it is such a personal decision and one that is irreversible. An owner that feels "pushed" then regrets the decision will likely blame their vet, even if it is only out of grief.

It is a very fine like for Veterianrians and one that I don't envy. When asked by owners I try to be compassionate and truthful but I let them know that ultimately they know their pet the best and are the ones that have to make that decision.

Meghan RAHT December 2nd, 2007 08:03:00 PM

Robin: Thats a whole post topic right there. I'll get to that one this week, I promise.

Dr. Patty Khuly December 3rd, 2007 08:57:00 AM

I think we need to remember it is all about the animals and not about our need of them in our lives.The quality of thier life, not the quantity should be the guideline to the "easiest hard" choice.

When my beloved cat lay with his head on the water bowl all day, the thirst of diabetes making him a recluse, I knew the time had come , Sure his disease was "under control", but the cat that was ,was gone.
Systemic lymphoma tore my other cat from our lives; her total lack of appetite even with drugs let me know. The Vet told me we could do chemo; for what? a few months?

Our animals are on loan to us.A gift of a benificent universe. Call it God, or providence or whatever you will. As thier caregivers, we must weigh the pros and cons of extreme care .In the final analysis, our beloved animals must be formost. Thier comfort and pain free exisitence must supercede our selfish needs..

cl December 3rd, 2007 10:44:00 AM

It's hard to come up with a blanket policy on this issue, because it often comes down to the individual animal. I had an insulinomic ferret come down with serious ulcer problems requiring hospitalization and 24 hour care. She stayed on an IV drip and wouldn't touch solid foods for five days, which for many ferrets would really mean it was time to go. But this girl was such a little fighter (she was a Canadian ferret, they're feisty), I decided to give her one more day in the ICU to see if there would be any improvement. That night, she ate kibble on her own, much to the surprise of the treating vet, and we had another good 7 months or so together.

OTOH, I had a ferret with severe IBD, complicated by ulcers, and with him I could tell he was done struggling with it and was unhappy. Could lots of supportive care have pulled him through? Maybe. But it wouldn't have been fair to him. The treating vet called the cause of death depression more than anything else, which certainly made an already grieving owner feel inadequate, but she may have been correct. I had another young ferret come down with aggressively fast lymphoma. We could have tried chemo--my vet was somewhat pushing that as she was part of a new protocol study--but the nature of his lymphoma didn't make him a good candidate and I felt like it would be putting an already uncomfortable guy through an awful lot for a very unlikely gain.

So I don't know--if the Lab puppy can pull on his Lab puppy nature, he might just make it through. Without knowing the animal, it seems to me the heroic measures would be worth a shot in this case.

Regina December 3rd, 2007 01:43:00 PM

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