The party line’s the same from almost every vet in the country: spay and neuter your pets. Though there’s some variety in the preferred age at which these procedures are performed, six months is still the generally accepted “ideal” on this front.
Nonetheless, new research is chipping away at our rock solid beliefs on the perfect time for spaying and neutering—especially in dogs. Most recently, a December 1st paper in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (sorry, you have to buy it to read it) infers that delaying spaying may confers a benefit to the individual dog with respect to the malignancy of mammary tumors.
Even in light of other recent findings, this factor does not yet present sufficient evidence to shift our current spay standards. But as evidence accumulates, the optimal time for dog spay may no longer be the six-month mantra we all hold so dear.
Other scholarly papers (one retrospective study from this past March, in particular) point to the lack of evidence in favor of neutering male dogs as a means of preventing disease. Sure, behavior and population control figure prominently in our decision making, but no longer can we blithely rely on past standards in favor of blanket neutering of dogs.
Some vets are even getting comfortable advocating a wait-and-see approach for specific pets when it comes to altering their sex hormone flow. But most still find themselves making near-blanket statements on spaying and neutering—and will continue to do so until research definitively guides the profession to alter its current guidelines.
But that doesn’t mean an owner doesn’t deserve to hear a thoughtful pros and cons argument. After all, the decision is ultimately theirs. And it doesn’t mean that owners with an interest in keeping a pet intact (for whatever reason) shouldn’t receive support for their decision.
Legislation proposed in California earlier this year brought this issue to the fore in full force when mandatory spay and neuter almost became the law of the land. Individual civil liberties prevailed over population control issues, but it seemed pretty darn close for a while there.
The irony for this vet is obvious: As science continues to research what’s best for the individual, finding that earlier may not be better for all pets, our increasingly progressive shelter-medical minds are advocating more widespread adoption of spays and neuters through legislation.
This paradox has led to a polarization within the pet community, exemplified by the white-hot blaze of the California debate and the still-smoldering embers it left behind after the legislation failed to pass.
Pitting the red state libertarians against the blue state regulators may sound like a pithy comparison, but the debate is increasingly making inroads along these lines. Those with a vested interest in their individual pets as children and family members suddenly find themselves at odds with the welfarists who take a broader, more utilitarian view on pets and animal suffering in general.
Asking the vets to chime in is equally fraught with danger, as the California Veterinary Medical Association found out when they backed their state’s spay/neuter bill: “How can we not support a bill that may well be the single most effective means of easing the suffering caused by overpopulation of unwanted pets?” they asked. And the answer was a vociferous, “Because it’s the wrong bill, stupid.” (The CVMA later went neutral on the subject.)
It's now clear that if you want to stem pet overpopulation you need to secure the buy-in of all invested parties. And that won't be easy to do when society continues towards greater disparity between the have and have nots in the pet world.
Ultimately, the vet profession will have to yield in two disparate directions simultaneously: One for the purposes of individual animal optimization and another to treat the pet overpopulation epidemic. Forcing one to yield to the detriment of the other, as the California bill did, will only serve to further polarize the issue and halt progress altogether.
So here’s where I ask you for your solution to the conundrum. Do you favor legislation at all? If you were to design a bill, how would you craft it?
btw: Yep, that's me with a pretty canine uterus!
Add Comment48 Comments
Can't recall the exact reference off the top of my head, but there was a recent study in Rottweilers showing that neutered Rotts were at a higher risk for developing osteosarcoma.
There is truly no easy answer for this ongoing debate...
Tomcat1765 December 20th, 2007 01:04:00 PM
"And it doesn’t mean that owners with an interest in keeping a pet intact (for whatever reason) shouldn’t receive support for their decision."
Well they aren't getting support for that decision from me. As much as I love purebred dogs I think the benefits of spay/neutering dogs and cats is worth any down side. I do wish that there was better data on the really early procedures also because I can't justify any shelter animal leaving without being done.
How many of your clients that breed really have any business doing so? No many, imo.
Jules December 20th, 2007 01:43:00 PM
Since I've just read Nathan Winograd's Redemption, I'm anti-legislation. Shelters should not let an animal out un-neutered/spayed IMHO, but laws to punish people just don't seem to work.
And I have to admit even if later is safer, I'd still be inclined to spay at six months. Teenagers in luv are bad enough in humans.....
rheather December 20th, 2007 01:48:00 PM
For years I have seen dogs I sold as pets from show bred litters look "different" from their intact show littermates when I saw them again at maturity. These pets were tall, narrow in frame, refined in bone and narrow in head. I had wondered and wondered; less quality food? raised differently? why were they different? Now I know why, my contract specified spaying/neutering at 6 months.
Here is another new study about CCLD and early spay/neuter. http://tiny.cc/earlyspayneuter
or Here is review of the vet literature regarding early spay neuter: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffec...
Setter Lover December 20th, 2007 02:00:00 PM
There is significant increased incidence of osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, obesity, the list is long. Early spay/neuter causes altered growth plate closure in the long bones.
I do not know what age I am advocating spay/neuter now, 12 months?, 15 months? Or responsible owners do they need to neuter at all? The health that I have afforded my dogs over the years by keeping them intact, don’t other dog owners deserve that as well? Tough questions? A leash and a crate may be the best doggy birth control made. In Europe spaying and neuter is almost unheard of. As a responsible breeder, what do I tell my puppy buyers, what do I specify in my contract? Knowing full well that the wrong answer may mean suffering and disease for their dog and for that family.
Setter Lover December 20th, 2007 02:07:00 PM
My gut tells me this is a silly idea, but is vasectomy instead of castration a possible middle ground for those concerned about health effects?
Or is this completely a question about 'when', not 'if' health-wise? In which case I would assume the risks inherent in two procedures instead of one would outweigh any health gains.
I know castration is the only way to see behavioral benefits, but I would think those would be completely tied to the health effects, while the population control side is separate.
ellipsisknits December 20th, 2007 02:20:00 PM
Actually the bill here in California is not dead at all. AB 1634 cleared two Assembly Committees and was passed on to the Senate by the full Assembly. It is currently in the Senate Local
Government Committee where it will be heard early next year. They are working hard on it to make all the exceptions that the opposition are asking for. The age originally was 4-months-old, and it's now at 6 months, and who knows what it will end up being when it's re-introduced.
I still have the belief that the health benefits (like eliminating chances for certain cancers) outweigh any risks, and I think the behavior benefits are important. Roaming dogs (roaming because they're unaltered) are usually intact and causing unwanted pregnancies, and most dog bites/attacks are from unneutered males.
The rest of my argument I present here doesn't address the health issues that you are talking about Doc, but I still feel it is valid.
My first and most important reason for supporting legislation is because I volunteer with rescue groups and at the Los Angeles City shelters and I spend a lot of time crying and mourning these beautiful,healthy, and life-loving animals that are being killed, and I'm unable to take any more into my home than I already have. Every rescue group here in L.A. are so completely full and their resources are low or gone. The rescuers need help and they deserve it!
I believe one reason Nathan Winograd is against this bill (though I know he opposes legislation of any kind) is because he thinks enforcing it will take away resources from things he feels is more important, but the intention of this bill is not to get anyone in trouble or to fine people. There won't be officers checking for testicles or anything like that. It will rely mostly on voluntary compliance. If there are complaints (from neighbors, etc.) or if a dog ends up in the shelter as a stray and is intact, when and if the guardians come to claim them, they will be given kind of a "fix-it" ticket and will be given a reasonable amount of time to spay/neuter along with free and low-cost spay/neuter options.
Breeders can still breed with an intact permit for a nominal fee that will be set by local jurisdiction. The sad thing is here in Los Angeles there are very few licensed breeders, like about 6 or so, definitely under 10, so obviously most of these people breeding animals and selling them are doing so illegally. Legit breeders should welcome the law to weed out the ones that are breaking the law. We're hoping AB 1634 will persuade many to comply with the law.
What I think is most valuable about the bill is that it will create awareness that is just not existent right now. I think it will make so many people realize this is something they're supposed to do.
I think it's ironic when the opposition talk about the bill penalizing "responsible" animal guardians, but where I come from "responsible" means you spay and neuter, so what's the problem?
The people that don't want to be told what to do with "their property", like living, breathing beings with souls are like pieces of furniture, are the same people that are dumping their animals off at the shelter all day, every day, to leave the taxpayers to deal with their "problem", and don't give it another thought. The "fanciers" seem to love animals for selfish reasons and don't care about the ones that are already on this Earth.
If one doesn't have compassion for the homeless animals, then we're hoping the fiscal impact will persuade them. The state of CA spends $250 million every year on housing and ultimately killing (most- and can't say euthanize since these animals are only suffering from not having a home) unwanted animals. Every dollar spent on spay/neuter saves taxpayers almost $19 in future animal control costs.
I believe this is a battle between the compassion-fatigued and the (no offense to anyone) clueless. I urge anyone opposed to spay/neuter laws to go to their local kill shelter and look into the eyes of these beautiful souls, most of whom are living their last hours on Earth. Live the reality of those that won't be leaving there alive. They will be killed before their time on a cold metal table or cement floor and thrown onto a pile in the freezer just because no one loved them enough to take them home.
Someone recently suggested to me that instead of licensing dogs, we license people. Everyone would be required to have a license to have an animal. A class would be given and an exam would need to be passed. Things such as spay/neuter, nutrition, not chaining your dog or just keeping them in the backyard, the truth about declawing, etc. It would be a large undertaking but I think it's a great idea that I would possibly support in lieu of a spay/neuter law, though I still think it's needed.
Pam Holt, RVT December 20th, 2007 04:29:00 PM
How would you enforce such a law? For what its worth, the already responsible owners are doing the right thing now. The owners who don't care won't microchip their pets, so there is no proof they actually own that animal. So they cannot be prosecuted, as far as I can see.
Who funds it? Some people cannot afford the cost of spay or neuter, or the surgery leads to complications and more costs. Who pays?
I don't think it should be made law. I do think people should be encouraged to neuter their pets - and buy from rescue centres where the animals are already neutered, microchipped, vaccinated, wormed, behaviour tested, and deemed healthy before you pick them up. And some of them give you lessons on how to train your new acquisition.
Robin December 20th, 2007 04:46:00 PM
"I believe this is a battle between the compassion-fatigued and the (no offense to anyone) clueless. I urge anyone opposed to spay/neuter laws to go to their local kill shelter and look into the eyes of these beautiful souls, most of whom are living their last hours on Earth. Live the reality of those that won't be leaving there alive. They will be killed before their time on a cold metal table or cement floor and thrown onto a pile in the freezer just because no one loved them enough to take them home."
Pam, thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree with your sentiments. I trapferals and have no qualms about neutering what I know to be a neighbor's cat. If they want them to remain intact they will have to keep them inside in my neighborhood.
Jules December 20th, 2007 04:53:00 PM
"Some people cannot afford the cost of spay or neuter, or the surgery leads to complications and more costs."
If someone can't afford a low cost spay or neuter then I'm sorry but they have no business getting the dog or cat. Giving animal control the right to enforce spay and neutering on animals they pick up would be a huge help because these are the ones running loose breeding.
Jules December 20th, 2007 04:57:00 PM
Jules, the proposed CA bill does nothing to promote low-cost spay/neuter; it takes resources away from that. Mandatory spay/neuter hasn't increased the rates of spay'neuter in any community where it's been tried; whast it does increase is owner surrenders and abandonment, because so many of the people who aren't speutering now are people who can't afford what vets normally charge for it. What increases the rate of speutering is putting funds and resources in to low-cost speuter programs. This bill doesn't do that.
Pam's happy talk about fees for responsible breeders keeping intact dogs being "nominal" is just that--happy talk. The municipalities can set any fees they want, and change them anytime they want.
Saying "it won't be actively enforced; only if there's a complaint" is truly scary; it's creating a grudge weapon for neighbor disputes.
The bill gives a free pass to puppy mills and pet stores; they are explicitly exempt. BYBs will continue to fly under the radar most of the time, as they do now. The last version of the bill before it got temporarily shelves ADDED an exemption for "just one litter" BYBs. This ia bill targeted DIRECTLY at the responsible breeders who acutally do care about their own dogs and the puppies they produce.
Dogs to be kept intact have to ALREADY be working or in a training program--whether that's ringcraft, search & rescue, guide/assistance dog. But six months is the earliest possible age for any such program, and for many of them, the dog has to be a year old, so this bill means that working dogs and show dogs will be very difficult to keep intact and keep in compliance with the law. I don't believe that's altogether an accident.
Don't overlook that puppy mill/pet store exemption. This bill is not the product of people who care about the welfare of the animals.
Lis December 20th, 2007 05:35:00 PM
Lis,
Thanks for writing and I do get that its not perfect especially with the puppy mill exclusion which is disgraceful. My biggest issue with the opposition of this bill is that the only people I know who are really against it are breeders. I'm not saying BB breeders but breeders none the less so that puts up a red flag for me. Maybe its not good as it stands now but I do think there is value to trying to decrease the number of intact dogs and really I could give a rip if it turns into neighbors fighting if it results in their dogs being neutered. Jules
Jules December 20th, 2007 07:10:00 PM
Was it Mark Twain who said "you can't legislate common sense" ???? That's where this falls. I would LOVE to see no puppies born until all homeless animals have homes. But that won't ever happen. It goes back to "It's the wrong bill". Instead of trying to use the money to pass the biil and enforce it, use the money for low-cost spay-neuter clinics.
As for the age and pros and cons of spay-neuter, all I can say is all my dogs have been neutered. None of them ever had the health problems mentioned. Personally, after I had my total hysterectomy, I understand now why the egyptians had eunichs for slaves.... ; )
AGADORE'S MAMA December 20th, 2007 07:24:00 PM
I don't favor legislation. I don't see how it could be policed well enough to make a difference. At least here in PA, licenses are required by law, yet it is estimated that about 60% of all dogs in the state are unlicensed. How would something like spaying or neutering be controlled if we can't control something small? What would the costs be? I would much rather the money it would take to execute such a law go toward providing low cost spays and neuters.
Dawn December 20th, 2007 07:33:00 PM
Jules, I'm sorry, but you're buying into the "a breeder is a breeder is a breeder" propaganda of PETA and other anti-domestic animal groups. This bill is not "imperfect but a step in the right direction"; it is actively bad.
If passed, it will NOT increase the rate of spay/neuter; it will increase pet surrenders.
It places extra burdens and obstacles on responsible breeders, while specifically exempting puppy mills, pet stores, and the most irresponsible and careless kind of backyard breeders. It will create MORE badly-bred pups sold to anyone with the purchase price, and drive out the good breeders who breed carefully and selectively, and take care to place the pups in good homes. How can this possibly be good?
Giving extra weapons to spiteful neighbors might be an acceptable cost if this bill were going to do any good, but it won't. It's _all_ bad. There are _no_ good effects that can be expected from it.
You say the fact that "breeders" --any breeders, even though it's not the puppy millers or bybs, who love it--oppose this bill is a red flag for you. Why isn't the fact that it _specifically_ _protects_ _puppy_ _millers_ a red flag for you? Why is protecting people who keep their dogs in cages, with no human affection, no play time, no toys, nothing except being bred every heat and and having their puppies taken from them too young, so they can reach pet stores at maximum cuteness age, while their moms are bred again, and then be killed when they aren't profitable again, an acceptable cost to you?
Lis December 20th, 2007 07:40:00 PM
Lis, I was trying to have a respectful exchange with you have no desire to get in a pissing match. I have no contact or affiliation with PETA. It would have been nice if you took the time to read what I wrote before launching the long lecture about puppy mills. "I do get that its not perfect especially with the puppy mill exclusion which is disgraceful."
This bill like much in life can't be hit with a blanket classification of: "It's _all_ bad.". I don't know how much rescue work you do but I do more than my fair share and am burnt to a crisp emotionally and financially from having to pick up the pieces left behind by ignorant human beings. As far as I'm concerned even a small increase in the number of dogs being spayed/neutered or NOT bred is a good thing.
Jules December 20th, 2007 08:15:00 PM
it's too bad that Best Friends "disappeared" the very trenchant analysis by their legal expert Laura Allen, which used to be on their website... until they announced their support for the latest AB1634. Her analysis reviewed the existing laws and concluded that they do NOT work to reduce intake numbers (and in the short term at least have exactly the opposite effect).
It is entirely wishful thinking to imagine that mandatory s/n will somehow reduce the numbers of animals being killed in shelters. Animals die because irresponsible owners abandon them in shelters and because shelter policies (as Winograd argues) require it. Until THAT cycle is broken, draconian laws will only increase tax and regulatory burdens on responsible pet owners.
Not to mention MSN is absolutely a stalking horse for more breeder restrictions and ultimately for no intentional breeding at all... and you know where that leads.
EmilyS December 20th, 2007 08:41:00 PM
Jules, I certainly did not intend to suggest that you had any connection with PETA. Unfortunately, they've been successful enough in pushing the "a breeder is a breeder is a breeder" propaganda that many people believe it without realizing where it comes from or what its agenda is.
I did read your entire post, including the sentence you requote at me, about the bill not being perfect and the puppy mill exclusion being disgraceful. Unfortunately, the bill really IS all bad, with no good countervailing the bad of the puppy mill exclusion. It WON'T increase the rate of spay/neuter; mandatory spay/neuter never does. It increases owner surrenders, because most of the people speutering are deterred by the cost. A bill that includes mandatory spay/neuter will make your work in rescue harder, not easier, because more dogs will be coming in.
Meanwhile, the puppy mills and pet stores are specifically protected, and the bill in its current form actually encourages BYBs of the most careless possible kind. Again, this will INCREASE the dogs coming into shelters, as badly-bred dogs are sold to people who aren't screened on any basis except ability and willingness to pay, without regard for their suitability as dog owners or as owners for that particular breed, never mind their preparedness for the health problems that are so much more likely in badly-bred dogs. AND, extra bonus bad news, responsible breeders, who breed carefully and selectively and on a very small scale, who breed genuinely healthy dogs to produce healthy puppies, give them proper vet care and proper socialization, and sell them to carefully screened suitable homes, on a contract that requires that the dog be returned to them if at any time the buyers can't keep it--those people, who produce puppies that are _extremely_ unlikely to wind up in shelters or rescues, those people will be driven out of breeding.
And while you might feel that not breeding dogs for conformation showing would be no loss, it also means no breeding working dogs--cattle dogs, search-and-rescue dogs, police dogs, guide dogs.
This bill won't do what you want it to do, and it will have significant bad effects directly cotrary to what you do want. There truly is no upside here. It's just a really, seriously, bad bill. Not an "imperfect" bill; a bad one.
Lis December 20th, 2007 09:00:00 PM
Throughout CA there are many free and low-cost spay/neuter services and there will be an increase if the law takes effect. There won't be a lot of money or resources needed for this bill other than an increase in free and low-cost spay/neuter. Like I said there won't be officers patrolling looking for intact animals. The neighbor thing you were concerned about Lis wouldn't be a problem. If a neighbor says another neighbor has an intact animal, and they do, a "fix-it" ticket will be given, along with free and low-cost spay/neuter services info, and they'll be given ample time to have the animal fixed. Over. It can't be used as a revenge tactic for a neighbor or fuel for a feud once the animal is fixed, so I can't see why that concern is valid.
Thanks so much for all you do Jules.
Pam Holt, RVT December 20th, 2007 09:19:00 PM
Look what you started Doctor!!! =)
Personally, I believe it's in the owners decision. However, I think that mixed breed dogs and tabby cats are better off being fixed. I've never had any of my animals have any of the problems listed. Overweight? Yes, in one dog. Out of 2 cats, 3 dogs, and one..fixed..rat. Yes, a fixed rat. Only my mom's miniature pinscher got fat, and that was my dad's fault. From fixing a breakfast plate for himself..and the dog. Keep in mind I'm talking..eggs, bacon, potatoes, hash browns, sausages..I'm surprised my dogs arteries aren't clogged to the max. For me, I'd rather they be fixed. I think those other problems would be better for my dogs to get rather than cancer. I've seen enough cancer patients to know nothing good comes from it.
However, if you're breeding/showing dog, then you have good reasons to leave them intact. If you want just a pet, then why put them at any risk of cancers or the chance your female dog breaks free while in heat, and gets pregnant. Then you have a litter of unwanted puppies that will ultimately go to a shelter. Or worse, your dog could die in the birthing process.
ashleigh December 20th, 2007 11:32:00 PM
Lots of discussion about what’s a bad bill here. And taking Winograd’s lead on no legislation. All god points. But still little discussion of what a good bill might look like.
From my experience the average dolt might be dissuaded from backyard breeding if he had to pay a hefty fee to keep his dog intact. Of course, that relies upon municipalities to participate actively in enforcement…and we know that means law enforcement in these cases often ends up in the vet’s hands…not my cuppa…
Here I sit, coffee in hand, hoping one of you will help save the world. I’m too sleepy to work on that mission today…
Dr. Patty Khuly December 21st, 2007 08:28:00 AM
I'm going to address a few things because we are going thru this hell right now in Palm Beach County. A draft of mandatory spay neuter regulations is on the table.
1. Dogs that roam are dogs that need to be kept in the house. We have a leash law. Keep your dog inside.
2. Look at the core issues. We looked at the issues and its feral cats, cats and pit bulls in that order. The feral cat regulation in the county is beyond stupid-we had volunteers trapping altering releasing until we got "the pottery barn law" -if you feed them you own them and you are responsible for them.
3. Mandatory spay and neuter in California would make all groups getting funding from Maddy's fund loose all their funding-and the same would go here.
4. The decision to put yourself or your animal under anesthesia is serious and making someone sign an informed consent for this is chilling. Go to the library and get a copy of Kurt Vonneguts WELCOME TO THE MONKEY HOUSE. and consider this-if this was a group of pediatric nurses asking for sterilization of all crack moms everyone would be outraged.
5. which brings me to compassion fatigue. Compassion fatigue is huge but its not normal-what it does is skew your logic.
Good responsible breeders are not the problem. and if you want to get real -if we want to get real a lot of these issues are cultural- but no one will talk about it. Its not politically correct.
and this is the thing that kills me.
Why should a person that owns a dog have a special program to pay to get it altered? The absolute disconnect between rescue and the fact that yes even our veterinarians have to pay their bills -you know rent, pay their staff, buy equipment-where does this come from. It is a privilege to own a pet -it should be your privilege to pay the bill. Part of rescue education needs to be : can you afford this pet if he/she gets sick. When you guys are down with your mandatory regulations and free spay/neuter non of the rest of us will be able to afford to go to the Vets. You build the nail when you all bought your medication from pet med express and this will just drive it through the heart.
Nathan Winograd is against the bill because everyone that gets Maddy's fund will be cut off and believe me in the end this bill anywhere will become an unfunded mandate.
The goal here is to win hearts and minds. At one meeting here someone brought up recycling and how we all recycle without really even thinking about it. Its not mandated. In our county we were provided two tubs one for plastic one for paper and without fanfare we became an award winning recycling county.(and please do not think for a moment i'm comparing out pets to a pepsi can)
What we should all be doing is:
1. Promoting rabies tags. This way we know where people live. Not increasing the price (please don't increase the price on a public health mandate_and every year at those shots you educate people. If people cannot afford it then they can be referred to low cost spay/neuter (thru an organization that gets maddy's fund and actually gives veterinarians a decent chunk of change).
The breeder who will get the licensee are not the people your looking for. Its the people that live in the shadows. The people who do not obey laws.
The amount of people that are aware is staggering. Here in out county we have a six month waiting list for low cost spay neuter. so theres a want.
whats our issue. The inability of the county to reach out and have everyone work together. Those of us that know how to raise money and know how to educate are being ignored.
I go to shelters. I rescue animals. and I take great offense because what compassion fatigue has done to people is create this statement "If your not for mandatory spay neuter your for the terrorists: and thats just not true.
its insulting.
and since we're being honest here. shelter workers probably have the worse case of compassion fatigue. Much more than any human medicine person. veterinarian (unless they work in a shelter), rescue person because they are ones that have to do the job. No one can deny that. But its the responsibility of the shelter director to make sure their people are ok. In nursing we identified this years ago. Compassion fatigue needs to be treated otherwise your not an effective nurse. I can't tell you how many nurses I've supervised to get another job (I worked in psych) and some therapy.
No one wants to see dogs die.
I wrote an article about xmas dogs -i was blown away by the response I got-the responsible breeders were militant about not allowing any dogs go out at christmas and the rescue people didn't seem to have an issue. I think thats when I started to listen and realized again -all the laws in the world won't stop the people who bring their dogs to shelters.
Of course you want licensee people. When I did my pediatric rotation at an inner city hospital and held crack babies and hiv positive babies in my arms. As a rescue person I do have to tell you that most of my dogs that I get are just lovely. The abused neglected dog is few and far between.
ONe thing you guys in california might do is what I did. Write a rescue directory of your entire state, get it printed and put it in every veterinarians office and humane shelter (i'm still working on this part) -if you build it they will come.
cyndi December 21st, 2007 08:43:00 AM
Addressing this comment:
" The "fanciers" seem to love animals for selfish reasons and don't care about the ones that are already on this Earth. "
Lets not use a blanket here. By fanciers I assume you mean show people? Many of those "fanciers" are the reputable breeders trying to keep their breed of choice healthy. If they didn't care about the ones already here, they wouldn't be doing breed rescue or helping at shelters. I am a member of some breed rescue groups and rountinely see posts asking for help for other animals by those same fanciers. Many of them (show breeders) also have mixed breeds and cats from shelters as well. Sure there may be some selfish people out there churning out dogs or cats for their own reasons but I don't think they are in the majority.
One of the ways I tell people they can spot a reputable breeder is to find out of they support their own breed rescue. Those are the ones that really care about the breed and help it where ever they can.
To me BYB's are the group that could be lumped as selfish. Either by looking to make a buck or breeding so "the kids can see the miracle of birth" or because they want to repeat the perfection (in their perception) of the dog they currently own. Fanciers breed to improve the breed. Yes because they find that breed special. Perhaps that could be considered selfish I suppose.
Just my two cents on fanciers.
Marie December 21st, 2007 08:59:00 AM
So here are some solutions
1. Start keeping actual numbers - and I know its hard- take the emotion out of it and insert some science. Science always wins in logical arguments.
so numbers-
Numbers should be f split between dogs, cats and feral cats and then split again between humane euthanasia (old sick animals that are being brought in to be humanely euthanized, dangerous animals , un-adoptable animals as opposed to healthy could be adopted pets. Then we can actually see what we are dealing with.
If you going to solve a problem you must know what the problem is.
Most shelters offer humane euthanasia.
1. Promotion of rabies license tags
They should be the same price for all. Rabies is a public health issue and should not be used to mandate anything else. The absolute benefit of this is tags are our first way of knowing where people live. Addressed can be rechecked and verified at the one year re vaccination. This is where education takes place. I know in the human world when you go for a yearly checkup there is a list of things you should get done. Can we add to this list education regarding spay and neuter for medical reasons (cause I'm tellin ya know-the people who do not do this don't give rats behind about pet overpopulation)
2.Promotion of microchips
There is a scanner that will scan all chips. A good practice would be to scan the chip at rabies vac time and remind people to update their address. Then you have pets and you know where they go. Then the person who owns the pet becomes responsible. Just like parents of human children.
3. A county wide scanning procedure that all humane shelters and rescues must follow with a procedure to return pets to the people they belong to. No more dog stealing rescue friends. If you have an issue and you think that a dog has abused or neglected then thats actually why we have animal control officers. Don't assume. I'll be able happy to write a few cases as example.
4. County wide lost and found or even a state wide lost found. You say banana. Where I live stray dogs go who knows where and if my dog was lost I'd never see him again because the people at the shelter do not believe if you loose your dog you should get him back.
6. A citizens board for your county -rescue people, veterinarians, dog fanciers and dog trainers one that matches each county commissioners district. That way the particular issues in that district can be addressed.
and how do we know what these issues are.
we kept numbers. we were scientists
8. Enforcement of existing laws like leash laws and Pet Lemon Laws.
9. Education concentration in the "areas" which seem to an issue. Meet with those community leaders and talk it through and come up with solutions.
This is the part that cracks me up. I'd have no compunction, in fact I'll put my money where my mouth is- I'm making an appointment with a community leader in one of those "areas" no one wants to talk about and asking what he thinks we can do to educate his public about this issue.
10. Look for outside funding for veterinarians ie Maddy's Fund http://www.maddiesfund.org/grant/index.html
The reimbursement is $60 to $110 (depends on SX... cat neuter to female dog spay)including the $10 copay.
60% of county veterinarians must sign up
will not give money if spay and neuter is mandated
(release circulating on the internet states that if AB 1634 becomes law, no California community will be able to benefit from Maddie's Fund grants.
If AB 1634 does pass, it could impact Maddie's® support of spay/neuter programs in California. Since our inception, Maddie's Fund has had a policy of not funding government mandated programs. As stated on our website, "This policy applies to mandatory spay/neuter laws, as well as to other requirements imposed by federal, state and local legislation." For more information about Maddie's Fund policies go to: http://www.maddiesfund.org/grant/policy.html)
11. again, lastly create a statewide rescue list. or county wide. just something. I did this 8 years ago and my page list has turned into a fabulous directory and all I hear from the veterinarians where i have placed it is "thank you. People do not want to go to pet shops any more they want to rescue." It is and will remain the economy stupid. (for any too young that was a campaign slogan)
12. This needs to be done as one cohesive group with everyone on the same page. Yes I'm talking about shelters, rescues, fanciers and veterinarians. All together now.
Meet as a county and put together attainable goals.
13. No more imports from other countries. I feel bad for SATA dogs. If you feel that bad take my list and go to that country and start working on those hearts and minds but please do not import dogs into a place where we have issues. This would be the same for these internet places that order dogs and I guess there would be an exception for police dogs.
anyone else?
cyndi December 21st, 2007 09:41:00 AM
My, my! Always a topic sure to create controversy! And anyone who hard-lines on one side or the other is being bloody close minded, IMHO!! I have a perfect example of the physical differences between early spay and late spay. My dad has two Brittaneys that are VERY closely related. One the breeder had kept until she was 18 months old, and then my dad took her and she was spayed at that time. The second he got as a puppy, and spayed her at 6 months, as we have always done with dogs in our family. The late spayed bitch is built like a quater horse and is typical of the general outline of the breed. The early spayed bitch is long and leggy, more like a Thoroughbred and in fact is taller than the breed standard, when the breeder was sure she would be under sized. In gereral, every female dog my family has had has been long and leggy, and every one has also been spayed between 6-7 months. Between current research regarding growth plate closure, and personal experience, I will never again do an early spay with my future females; I will wait until they've reach their mature growth. I have to wonder if early spay not only effects growth plate closure, but also mature bone density. We all know what lack of estrogen does to women's bones after meopause! And, as far as the males, I have one, intact, that I will never breed. Originally, I kept him intact because I agreed to show him in the breed ring when I got him. But now, at 2 1/2 years old, I just can't see any reason to neuter him unless medically necessary in the future. He has the most laid-back, always happy temperment of ANY dog I have ever had! Most people are shocked to find out he's intact (being a Cardigan, and low to the ground, there's nothing to 'see'). He has none of the behaviours most people stereotypically assign to intact males. Why remove perfectly healthy tissue when I am willing to take responsibility to prevent accidental breeding and he doesn't have any behavior issues? I think in many instances, spaying or neutering must be taken on a case by case basis. I know a lot of people that have no bussiness having an intact dog around; but, I also know a lot of people that I would trust to be entirely resposible and that have various reasons for either not altering their dogs, or at least doing so later than the 6 month norm. Lastly, and again, IMHO, all the laws and regulations never seem to affect the people they are really targetted at. Let's face it, there is a group of irresponsible people that are going to do what they want to do, regardless. These laws are usually targetted at those people, the small number who are 'the lowest common denominator'; the ones that can't be responsible for themselves, much less their pets. But, duh, these are also the people that ignore laws, regulations, rules, and plain common sense; how will making a new law make any differnce to people of this mind set?
Cardimom December 21st, 2007 10:44:00 AM
"13. No more imports from other countries. I feel bad for SATA dogs. If you feel that bad take my list and go to that country and start working on those hearts and minds but please do not import dogs into a place where we have issues. This would be the same for these internet places that order dogs and I guess there would be an exception for police dogs."
Sato dogs aren't from another country; they're from Pueto Rico, which is part of the USA.
Lis December 21st, 2007 11:48:00 AM
"Sato dogs aren't from another country; they're from Pueto Rico, which is part of the USA."
Also, no trivial point, I just can't type some days.:(
Lis December 21st, 2007 11:50:00 AM
I find it very hard to believe that Maddies fund will actually make good on its threat not to fund if the govt. becomes involved and if they do, shame on them. They aren't the only source of funds for low cost spay and neuter and revenue from increased licensing fees to puppy mills and breeders could be used for these programs. Hit them in the pocketbook like the cigarette industry because yes it does work.
I don't buy into the story that it will result in major surrenders because as others have stated the deadbeats are likely to ignore it however if mandatory s/n encourages a small percentage of people to do it that normally wouldn't have I feel it is worth the price of having Uncle Sam in our gril. As per the licensing quote from PA, if your s/n compliance rate matched your licensing percentage that 40% of neutered animals would make a huge difference imo. PA is home to quite a few puppy mills also, sigh.
The puppy mills totally need to be included and hit really hard. A major increase in operating costs would result in a decrease in that industry. They are in it for the $$, chip away at the bottom line and I promise it will reduce the industry. As for "reputable breeders" they will have to add it to their sale price. Something that their perfect buyers, who never surrender dogs to shelters, will have to eat in the interest of maybe getting a superior dog. I do not believe that increased costs will do more than have them complaining and raising their prices neither of which matter to me. If on the other hand the costs help stop the many morons who think it would be a good way to make a few dollars it is worth it.
Jules December 21st, 2007 12:29:00 PM
Jules, first of all, Maddie's Fund does not have unlimited funds, and they do have an agenda--which is NOT supporting high-kill shelters, and policies that have been proven to fail.
Why would you support policies that _may_ result in a _small_ increase in spay/neuter, in preference to policies that _do_ create _large_ increases in spay/neuter?
It's interesting that you think that the licensing fees (which wouldn't affect puppy mills anyway, since they're exempted) would cause enough of an increase in the cost of doing business to hurt the puppy mills, but that reputable breeders (why the scare quotes around "reputable", by the way?) can just pass along the cost. It's especially interesting, because the bill as written also bans the "sale" of puppies (except by puppy mills and pet stores); the reputable breeders would have substantially increased costs, but would be breaking the law if they tried to recover any of their costs at all.
Why the obvious and palpable resentment of reputable breeders screening puppy buyers to make sure, as far as humanly possible, that they _don't_ wind up becoming part of your burden as a shelter/rescue worker?
Lis December 21st, 2007 01:30:00 PM
Lis,
Perhaps I'm not computer savvy enough to know what_all_the_freaking_time_consuming_ lines_ mean but I sure get the feeling that your vibe is aggressive. I’m sorry that you feel such contempt for people like me, tell me again how many spays/neuters did you personally finance this year?
Refereeing from the cheap seats is mighty easy. I'd love to conside "policies that _do_ create _large_ increases in spay/neuter", where are these brilliang plans? No need to answer.
Please don't respond to me again and I'll do likewise. Jules
Jules December 21st, 2007 01:44:00 PM
Straight from Maddie's Fund:
There are no organizations in California currently receiving Maddie’s Fund grants that would lose the funds if AB 1634 went into law today.
Pam Holt, RVT December 21st, 2007 02:37:00 PM
Jules, you may not "buy into" the notion that mandatory s/n will result in an increase in surrenders. But that happens to be the FACT (sorry if my caps upset you).
The biggest problem with animal welfare these days is the insistence on people making their decisions based on their own feelings/hopes/wishes/assumptions.
Facts are a much better way to go
EmilyS December 21st, 2007 02:39:00 PM
Emily S,
If it is a FACT please add your sources. Sorry but your say so and snarky comment about the caps isn't enough to convince me.
Jules December 21st, 2007 03:00:00 PM
I'd really like to see more research about the effects of early versus late spay and neuter. I know that several of the service dog organizations have found they have better success with late spay and neuter in their breeding programs, but as a service dog user, I also know that what it takes to be a service dog is not necessarily what it takes to be a well-rounded happy healthy dog in other circumstances. Also, that's just a few larger breeds.
I have to say, that I'm glad my new , not yet neutered, dog is old enough that I can feel good about neutering him either way (14 months and appears to be full grown.)
Juli December 21st, 2007 03:11:00 PM
Personally, I want the government, town officials out of my face. The land of the "free" is rapidly becoming the land of the "oppressed".
In my area the cost to spay a large female dog ranges from $650 to $850. The few vets that kindly donate their time or charge a reduced spay/ neuter fee are hours away. So for convenience sake, I pay the higher fee. There are a lot of folks that don't have that luxury.
I don't begrudge the vets their fees. There are some great ones out there and unfortunately, the opposite is also true. I would rather have my vet as my family doctor than the family doctor I use.
Maybe a percentage of fines for stray owned dogs, unlicensed dogs, off leash dogs, nuisance dogs, expired Rabies, pound bake sales etc could be put aside in an account to help defray spay/ neuter cost for people needing assistance.
IMO puppy mills must register, must pay a hefty fee to continue in business, must be open to inspections of animals and facilities at any reasonable time. Any puppy/ litter shipping to pet stores out of state must go through the State Vet in regards to health certificates, vaccination requirements ( much like the horses ). In state pet stores receiving a litter/ puppy must file a report with their local animal control, PD or town clerk with the address of the supplying puppy mill breeder and be open to inspection.
What constitutes a breeder? In my town, if you own 3 unspayed females you are considered a breeder and required to have a kennel license and open to inspections. Those females may never be bred. I resent that intrusion into my private home and life.
Does a breeder always have to have a large kennel and lots of dogs? Can't a breeder have just one that is selectively bred? Can't a breeder be a back yard breeder and still produce quality pups? You can't put one group on a pedestal and condemn the other.
As has been stated- caring people are caring people - you don't need to regulate them. And the others will be looking for the loopholes.
Judy December 21st, 2007 07:34:00 PM
"Does a breeder always have to have a large kennel and lots of dogs? Can't a breeder have just one that is selectively bred? Can't a breeder be a back yard breeder and still produce quality pups? You can't put one group on a pedestal and condemn the other."
Suppose the breeder has just one dog; that's where most responsible breeders start, after all. She shows the dog, or competes the dog in field trials or whatever is appropriate to the breed; the dog becomes a champion. She breeds that dog with another, carefully selected champion belonging to someone else. There are puppies. Most of the puppies go to carefully selected homes, but this is a responsible breeder; she's breeding for the betterment of the breed, not to produce puppies to sell to make money. One or two of those pups is show/competition quality, and the breeder keeps one, to continue showing/competing, and to have that next generation that's the point of the whole exercise.
Being a "backyard breeder" is not about having just a small number of dogs. Most responsible breeders have a small total number of dogs, and it includes their retired dogs and the ones that haven't championed yet, as well as their breeders. "Backyard breeder" is a term that refers to people who have mistaken their pets for furry ATMs. Someone who has just one or two dogs, or five dogs or ten, and breeds them, and sells all the puppies, every time, is not likely to be breeding selectively for the improvement of the breed. The people who have a small number of dogs, do health screening, compete their dogs to their championships, and breed selectively, are "hobby breeders"; it's actually _less_ of a business for them than the people the term "backyard breeder" is applied to.
Lis December 21st, 2007 08:31:00 PM
Well, since I lost my beloved Maddy poodle to lung cancer last year I will never again have a dog that isn't spayed before her first heat. She had malignant mammary tumors removed two years in a row and died of lung cancer a year after her second surgery. I had no choice with her since I didn't get her until age four when she was rescued from a puppy mill. I don't know that her lung cancer spread from the mammary tumors, but it's a chance I'll never take if I get a dog as a pup.
Tracy December 21st, 2007 09:44:00 PM
Tracy, I am sorry for your loss. You and Maddy got the short statistical straw, particularly since being bred is usually protective against mammary cancer. There are pros and cons on both sides of the decision as to when/or if to spay or neuter. For females especially, it seems that the pros and cons about balance out,especially if you wait until the growth plates have closed. For males, what research we have seems to indicate they are better off intact. Your neutered dog may have a greater risk of bone cancer, but if you leave him intact, he could get testicular cancer. Our own experiences have a lot to do with which risks we are comfortable with and which we are not. I know people who lost a beloved puppy to anesthesia during what should have been a routine spay. I even know someone whose male puppy died of complications after neutering, which is even rarer. These people don't ever want to spay/neuter another dog - though they have no plans to breed. I'm glad we still have the option to make those decisions.
When I was a child it wasn't routine to spay and neuter, and we had both male and female dogs - all intact. We didn't want puppies (well I did, but my parents didn't :-) so we didn't have them. It's not as difficult as you might think. It's not irresponsible to have intact dogs.There are legitimate reasons to keep them intact other than a desire to breed. What is irresponsible is having unplanned, unwanted litters of puppies.
Linda H December 21st, 2007 11:54:00 PM
THIS is from Maddie's fund website:
http://www.maddiesfund.org/grant/
"Maddie's Fund® Response to Internet Post
A release circulating on the internet states that if AB 1634 becomes law, no California community will be able to benefit from Maddie's Fund grants.
If AB 1634 does pass, it could impact Maddie's® support of spay/neuter programs in California. Since our inception, Maddie's Fund has had a policy of not funding government mandated programs. As stated on our website, "This policy applies to mandatory spay/neuter laws, as well as to other requirements imposed by federal, state and local legislation." For more information about Maddie's Fund policies go to: http://www.maddiesfund.org/grant/policy.html" target="_blank">http://www.maddiesfund.org/grant/policy.html"
Pam, can you supply a context/link/source for your above post: "Straight from Maddie's Fund: There are no organizations in California currently receiving Maddie’s Fund grants that would lose the funds if AB 1634 went into law today."
Jules, the facts I referred to are referenced in every antiAB1634 site linked here.
Are there facts that support YOUR support for mandatory s/n?
EmilyS December 22nd, 2007 12:21:00 AM
"In my area the cost to spay a large female dog ranges from $650 to $850."
Omigod! I should be charging more! This is the toughest surgery I do (by far). Make no mistake--even boarded surgeons agree this is is an extra-tough procedure. But I find it hard enough to convince people their five-plus year old bitch needs to get her noodles out. If I charged more than $350 they'd never go for it. I often feel as if I'm donating my time when I do one.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 22nd, 2007 08:35:00 AM
EmilyS,
I do not see one study listed on that website that supports your statement that it is a FACT that mandatory s/n will result in an increase in surrenders. In fact when has it even been tried? If I'm missing the research links please add them because despite your need to SHOUT at me I am interested in learning more if my line of thinking isn't the best one for the animals.
I know this is a heated topic but I have to say that with all the message boards I've participated in never before have I encountered such attitudes and unwillingness to explore others opinions and experiences. You know we can always agree to disagree. Sheesh.
Jules December 22nd, 2007 10:35:00 AM
P.S. As for sources I never claimed that my opinions are FACT like you did.
Jules December 22nd, 2007 10:37:00 AM
I got it Jules: facts don't matter to you.
What matters to you is what typeface people use on the Internet.
As for your opinions, you just believe what you want to believe.
So no point in discussing further, is there?
EmilyS December 22nd, 2007 11:17:00 AM
Hmmmm I guess you didn't understand this: "If I'm missing the research links please add them because despite your need to SHOUT at me I am interested in learning more if my line of thinking isn't the best one for the animals."
Yes really I don't need to be yelled at by you so I'm all to happy to move on to a more civil discussion. How bouts you don't respond to me and I won't respond to you?
Jules December 22nd, 2007 11:31:00 AM
I get frustrated by that touchstone of "more dogs speutered early develop bone cancer". If you have a greyhound or a rottweiler, I can see being concerned. But most greys are speutered late anyway, off the track, aren't they? And they still have a high rate of bone cancer. And how often do you see other breeds of dog develop bone cancer?
I think it's foolish to believe that mandatory spay/neuter would be effective. Mandatory licensing and mandatory rabies vaccination aren't effective. Heck, leash laws aren't even effective. What about breed bans? Again, really not effective at all, and determining that a dog looks like a pit bull (remember, the law doesn't care what breed they really are) is much easier than determining whether or not a bitch has been spayed.
I agree that low cost spay/neuter and incentive programs would be much more effective and useful in dealing with the pet overpopulation problem. I fully support pediatric spay/neuter done by shelters, because they HAVE to look at the big picture. I don't think laws are the way to go with this, at all. People resent laws. They resent being told what to do by Big Brother. But giving them the options and making them easily available, advertising them in places where people who need them will know about them, and encouraging rather than demanding may help.
katie December 22nd, 2007 11:54:00 AM
Linda H,
I cannot get the link to article mentioned in your above post to work.
I had the Berst Friends page bookmarked for over a year but was not surprised when it was removed when they decided to jump on the AB 1634 bandwagon.
Could you publish another link?
Thank you
JenniferJ December 22nd, 2007 11:39:00 PM
Thanks Linda H. I'm on dial up at work right now but I'll check them out tonight.
Jules
Jules December 23rd, 2007 09:56:00 AM
I have been answering dog questions on the net for a long time. I am appalled at the questions I see every day from the totally clueless about breeding or keeping intact dogs. I have no idea how many questions I have seen from people wanting to breed a female in her first season, or who have let one be bred. They don't even know at what part of her cycle she is fertile. I can't imagine these people have done the work it takes to produce quality, healthy puppies.
Labman March 24th, 2008 01:24:00 PM
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