Vet P.O.V. Shock collars, underground fences and other hardcore training devices

August 17th, 2007  

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Shock collars can be really effective for some problem behaviors. I live on a large ranch and have a McNab (Penny) that was really a problem harassing the horses and chasing deer. A couple of zaps of the shock collar stopped that behavior cold. The key was to let her wear the collar all of the time, and zap her when she didn't know we saw her misbehaving . Sort of like "the hand of god" getting her. I didn't like the idea of a shock collar initially, but the risk to her from the horses and the risk to the deer from her made serious measures necessary.

When people ask what she is wearing around her neck, we tell city people that it is a little radio that plays NPR to keep her calm

Rebecca Hayhurst August 17th, 2007 12:09:00 PM

What are your thoughts on citronella collars?

Stacy August 17th, 2007 01:04:00 PM

Where we live we are not allowed to have traditional fencing due to HOA rules, so we had to go with underground fencing. I made sure I trained my dog and didn't just turn him loose to get zapped by it. I think under the correct circumstances, these types of collars and fences are appropriate. It's just that, like any training method that involves pain or force, there are some idiots out there that use it to excess and completely unappropriately. There are also some animals that simply do not respond well to these methods and other ones needs to be used.

Lesa August 17th, 2007 01:24:00 PM

I was very, very resistant to underground fences until I moved onto 15 acres out in the country. The dogs would spend all day figuring out how to break out of the yard and then run about on the neighboring properties where there are cows and owners with guns. (Which I'm okay with.)

So I put an underground fence around the 15 acres. It's on the fence line so the dogs figured out quickly the area not to go. And that it's okay to go out the driveway if I'm with them. So for my peace of mind and the dogs safety I'm really glad I did.

heather August 17th, 2007 01:42:00 PM

We have a beagle who loves nothing more than standing at the edge of our property (a far piece) and howling at the deer for hours on end. Our neighbors were none too pleased. Unfortunately, no positive reinforcement technique worked because he literally likes nothing more than howling. Not even filet mignon. We ended up going for the shock collar as a last resort. The great thing about it is that it also has a beep. After only two low shocks (which I tried on myself first -- not painful, just startling) given at the same time as the beep, and he got the idea that the beep means stop. Every once in a while (once every two months or so) we have to "remind" him what he shock is like, but otherwise, it's just a beep.

Jes August 17th, 2007 02:05:00 PM

I guess I'm one of those city-types you'd have to cry the NPR-wolf to. I understand the need, of course, especially when it's a safety concern with hrses and cars. I also understand the instinctive behaviors (beagles just howl) and hadn't heard of the beep thing (awesome!). As long as they're not psychologically traumatized or heavily zapped I guess I'm down with that.

As to the citronella anti-bark collar I've just heard it's not that effective for dogs that bark out of anxiety or serious drive (like beagles). For anxiety cases all bark collar measures are contraindicated, btw. You have to address the underlying anxiety first, then go on to easy easy measures of bark control.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 17th, 2007 02:46:00 PM

Rebecca: You could always thell them it's a GPS (they look just about the same) lest they be conservative city folk.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 17th, 2007 02:47:00 PM

Never used a shock collar....I grew up around "choke" collars though, but they are misused by about 99.9% of people out there. For loose leash walking we do "training walks" with the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness. Once they behave rationally on a "training walk", we do "real walks" with a regular leash with regular old flat buckle collars. The idea is to phase out anything but the flat collar.

Electric fence people: sucks that you aren't allowed to have a real fence (we recently bought a house and are in the process of getting rid of the chain link fencing and installing privacy fencing....never had a fenced yard before this though), but the thing I'm worried about with electric fences is...it doesn't prevent anything from coming INTO your yard...I don't leave my dogs outside unattended but if I did and I had an electric fence, any old stray dog or nosy children or dog groupers could stroll into the yard and cause trouble for my dogs. How do you monitor their outside time, or are you far away enough from neighbors where that isn't a threat?

Carissa August 17th, 2007 03:19:00 PM

What do you have against pinch collars, or are you just talking about misuse? I've found it to be a very effective training tool for my Springer. A food reward works great inside, but when you are outside with a hyper beast with high prey drive all the clickers and milkbones in the world aren't going to do a lick of good.

Chip August 17th, 2007 03:19:00 PM

Hmm...my post seems to have gotten eaten Chip. Anyway I'll sum up that I think choke collars should come with instructions because most of the time on my walks I tend to see people with their dogs 2 feet ahead of them, straining forward and wheezing/gasping from the collar being in constant choke position...when they should have it up a lot higher and the correction is supposed to be just a quick "pop" and the chain should then loosen. I think I'd be OK with them if they were widely used more appropriately, is what I'm saying I guess.

Carissa August 17th, 2007 03:32:00 PM

The severity of the tool depends on the hands that hold it. This applies to bits that go in horses' mouths as well as to collars, or heeling sticks, or riding crops. The mildest tool can be abused by a harsh person.

We use e-collars on our retrievers. It's to be able to "reach out and touch" them when we are training in the field. I don't like to see them labelled as shock collars and cringe to hear (read) that people are "zapping" their dogs. I equate the touch that the e-collar allows to a collar pop I would do if I could lay my hands on them.

You can't teach anything complicated with an e-collar. To not bark, yes. To sit on command, particularly when they are yards away from you, no. But you can reach out and remind them who's driving the bus when they give you the dew claw. :-)))) And, yes, we tried the collars on ourselves so we know exactly what they feel like. (I think that's pretty important.)

I use a prong collar on my intact male boy. 75 lbs. of high-energy, high-drive testosterone soaked muscle can be a handful and there's no way to get that trained well-enough before the adolescent stage. The prong collar just makes him a better citizen. He needs constant input or he makes bad decisions and the prong collar gives to him what I can't do vocally. I have fingertip control. I know what's around his neck and the damage it can do. I fully expect to train this dog to an advanced obedience title which means I will have precision off-leash control. But we ain't there yet, although we're getting closer with every training session.

Funny, the only other time I've heard or read a rant this strong against the use of prong or e-collars, it came from a vet tech whose husband is a vet. She witnessed my husband (all 6'4" and 200 lbs. of him) react when he practically get his shoulder yanked off of his body by his 70 lb. retriever who suddenly noticed I was in the vicinity and was happy to see me. My husband was rather perturbed and gave the dog several collar pops on his flat buckle collar, muttering that he should have had the prong collar on him. Rant ensued. "This 'supposedly' highly trained dog can't be controlled..." blah, blah, blah. (The young dog had an intermediate competitive obedience title.) I know the type of animals she chooses for herself (low drive, laid back) and told her, "get yourself a high-drive, high-energy big dog and THEN give me your opinion." (I might say the same to you, Dr. K. >ggg<)

I understand that vets see more than their share of the results of collar abuse and that skews their opinion. And I understand that many people choose to have laid-back, low drive dogs. But we're not them and it's nice to have easy access to the tools that allow us to train our dogs.

Deanna August 17th, 2007 04:36:00 PM

i don't have a problem with remote-controlled e-collars in the hands of people with good timing who know what they're doing. i wish they were not so readily available to the average owner, though, because they are easy to misuse and can have some serious fall-out. but then again, i don't particularly like bark collars or underground fence collars either. i really don't like citronella collars because the correction lingers and dog noses are so sensitive. if i think it stinks, it must *really* stink to their noses. at least the shock is over in an instant.

if you don't like prong collars, then what do you recommend to somebody with a large unruly dog that they're having trouble physically controlling? training, sure, but it's daggone hard to take a dog out into the world to train if you can't control him, and many people don't have places like a quiet backyard to start in.

katie August 17th, 2007 06:39:00 PM

I use a prong collar on Beaner, my pitbull. He went thru basic obedience class, where the instructor, who is a vet, suggested the prong collar. It worked wonders. He had been using a traditional collar, and was pulling the entire time, making his neck raw. With the prong, he stopped pulling.

Beaner spotted a stray cat the other day while I had him on a 30 ft training leash. We were visiting and there was no fence.... anyway, b4 I knew what was happening, he pulled me to the ground and dragged me about 2 feet. No harm no foul, but the prong collar is due for a visit. It isn't on him all the time now... just every few weeks to reinforce his manners.....

Agadore's momma August 17th, 2007 06:55:00 PM

I agree it is about the person on the other end of the leash that is a very important part of the equation.

Aside from the prong/pinch collar for really strong dogs, there is also the head collar. (also known by the brands Gentle Leader, Halti, Comfort Ease,and Snoot Loop for short nosed breeds.)

Or the Easy Ealk harness by Premier. (not to be confused with a regular harness which encourages pulling by making it comfortable and utilizing oppositional reflex action.)

I recommend either for people with serious pullers until they get them trained. No tool replaces training for pulling issues BTW. They will still pull if allowed to regardless of what they wear. Head collars and special harnesses or collars just help give the people abit more control (leverage advantage) and make it less comfortable for them to pull against us.

My concern with e-collars and pinch collars (and even choke collars) is the timing needed to be fair to the dog. Proper timing takes practice for the humans to master. I pity the dog that needs to put up with bad timing that results in pain to them due to the lack of owner coordination.

Negative methods (compulsion training-using corrections to teach dog to work for you in order to avoid them) can also work against you by making the dog associate corrections with other things in it's environment. Example: Dog gets reactive (overstimulated) on walks when it sees another dog, recieves correction. Eventually dog gets worse because every time another dog shows up he gets a "correction" making the association negative. They think they get in trouble when dogs appear so they become aggressive towards the other dogs.

Any tool can be used incorrectly. Head collars need to not be jerked when used and feedback always needs to be given to the dog to be fair and let dog know if doing behavior we want or not. Positive training does NOT equal permissive. Many people do not understand this concept. I have been called a "cookie pusher" by those that think positive training using food as a paycheck is simply bribery. Done incorrectly it can be. But you get a dog that won't work without food. Not a good goal. Done properly it isn't at all (food is phased out) and your dog will work for you reliably and understand what you are asking of it.

One of the most important aspects of training, no matter HOW you do it, is consistancy. That is where most people fail. Training takes time and patience. Again, regardless of the methods or tools you use.

Dog trainers joke ~

Q:What can two dog trainers agree on?

A: What the third one is doing wrong.

Marie August 17th, 2007 08:56:00 PM

I just noticed I didn't really answer the question. Is shock therapy needed for some pets with dangerous behaviors?

My answer is no. You can't do true behavior modification using shock collars. I don't know of a true animal behaviorist that would use them for b-mod either. Yes you can use it to stop some behaviors, but that doesn't teach the dog what we prefer them to do. Keeping them in the yard isn't changing behavior, just preventing them from leaving a specific area.

Supressing (or stopping) a behavior isn't the same as changing it.

There is a great semi-new training show on Animal Planet called "It's me or the dog". Check it out sometime. It is positive training, but not permissive. (The show "Barking Mad" is also excellent but I haven't seen it on lately.)

Marie August 17th, 2007 09:07:00 PM

The prong or pinch collar preceded the strangling choke chain and is far kinder and safer. It closes only so far and is intended to remind the dog to pay attention, not to choke the life out of him. It is power-steering for a dog and can be a life saver when a big dog is owned by a small person. Whoever thinks a prong collar is cruel should try one on her arm...then try a choke chain with the same force. See which one hurts, which one leaves a bruise.

As for the Halti or Gentle Leader, I hope none of you ever snap your dog's head around too fast when you're using that monstrosity.

Gil. August 17th, 2007 11:53:00 PM

Until recently I wholeheartedly agreed that shock collars were cruel and unusual. Unfortunately, it seems I must employ one with my Boxer for now. I got him at a year and a half old from the pound. He was a stray and it appears he has been not socialized in the least. He raises his hackles and growls/barks at nearly everything that passes "his territory" (which includes anywhere he happens to be at the time - my car when we drive somewhere, my house, where he's walking in the woods, etc.) He also has an EXTREMELY high prey drive. I had been trying unsuccessfully to break him of his habit of chasing my cats by standard corrections (loud, low voice, intercepting, commanding to leave it and down, etc.) Usually the cats get away easily, and when they're cornered they scratch him. For the longest time I was having to put ointment on his face because he doesn't know when to quit!

Last month (we'd had him 10 months at this point) before I had a chance to move there was a thump, a feline scream, and I rushed back to find a cornered cat. I put him away from the situation, checked the cat, and all was well. 2 hours later we find the kitten - the real victim of the attack. 4.5 months old and he had a large puncture wound next to his eye, a chipped nose bone, and drainage. It was infected quickly and we spent $224 for the diagnosis and meds. My husband was ready to put the dog down then and there, and I was ready to take him back to the pound. Dealing with bad behaviors is one thing - and I believe that the pet you take on is yours for life - but physically harming another creature in the house is another.

I started sobbing once the reality of the situation hit me, and how unfair it would be to give up on him. So Jaxon wears an e-collar. I send the tone more than I send the shock, but when he ignores the tone or when he goes after a cat I send a quick shock to him. I do it at the lowest level that gets his attention. My intention is not to inflict as much pain as possible, just snap him out of his mode quickly even when I can't be on top of him. My hope is that I will be able to put him through his paces and thoroughly train him soon; until then, the collar is here for the cats' protection. Then I don't have to deal with the guilt of foisting him on to yet another family when he's been through goodness knows how many already. I can understand it as a last resort, just not the first thing you try.

Brandy August 18th, 2007 02:17:00 AM

Gil wrote: "As for the Halti or Gentle Leader, I hope none of you ever snap your dog's head around too fast when you're using that monstrosity."

Ayyyyyy-men, Gil.

Deanna August 18th, 2007 09:59:00 AM

A training tool is not a training method. I too get upset when I see someone working with a dog and having poor timing, being inconsistent or being unfair, particularly if they are jerking the snot out of their dog. First you gotta teach them what you want, then you add in compulsions when they consciously make the decision to not do what you asked.

One thing that's being overlooked in this discussion is that we're talking about two different things. Many of us are talking about stopping our dogs from doing something which is something completely different than training a dog to DO something. One is the quick fix, the other is a loooooong process. The thing is, you can use the quick fix to get control while you do the training that results in the other.

You can't compell the dog to DO anything with a tool. I "trained" 2 dogs using the jerk method and a metal slip collar (also called a "choke collar" -- if the dog is choking it's being used improperly) and never was able to get the joyful precision heeling I want. (Go figure.) They are definitely under control and don't pull, but.... Dog #3 is on the prong collar b/c of his brute strength AND being trained with positive methods along with compulsions (bounces, pushes, tugs, shakes, touches, etc.) when he chooses to ignore me. Step by step I'm getting the wonderful, heads-up, joyful attention and precision heeling that I want, off lead. But, dang, is he a bad decision maker!

It all transfers to the field where we use the e-collars. We feel that our dogs must have a solid foundation in basic obedience before we collar condition them. Collar conditioning means that we don't just slap the collar on and use it. We teach them how to keep it from being used and how to turn it off when it's in use. (The beep on the no-bark collar that someone mentioned works the same way. The dog learns to shut-up and avoid the electric stimulation when it hears the beep.)

And, yes, both hubby and I work with pro trainers -- whose dogs are happy and bursting with desire to work. I've seen trainers whose dogs do the work, but they ain't happy about it. Funny thing is, we all use the same tools, which include e-collars and prong collars.

Deanna August 18th, 2007 10:26:00 AM

"A training tool is not a training method."

I just wanted to say Amen to THAT!

And one person's monstrosity is another mans salvation. The key is finding what works (fairly) for both the dog and the owner. Only then will real change happen and be effective for the long term.

Marie August 18th, 2007 11:26:00 AM

"As for the Halti or Gentle Leader, I hope none of you ever snap your dog's head around too fast when you're using that monstrosity."

One of the creators of the Gentle Leader is a professor at the U of MN CVM... We had a wetlab from him in which we learned how to properly fit a Gentle Leader/Easy Walk Harness, how to introduce a dog to them, etc. He said that Premier encourages people to report any incidences of injury as a result of using a Gentle Leader, and he hasn't gotten a single one. Perhaps people just aren't reporting them, but if they were as common as you imply, then I would think they'd have a few by now.

I use a Gentle Leader around the house for my dog's anxiety, and she turns into a whole different creature. When nothing else can penetrate the anxiety, the Gentle Leader snaps her out of it, allowing her to focus on things that make her comfortable and happy rather than the things that are making her anxious.

Megan August 18th, 2007 11:29:00 AM

Leading experts in the training world use and recommend them regularly. Brenda Aloff (author of Aggression in dogs, Canine Body Language, and Positive Reinforcement~Training dogs in the real world.) As well as Karen Overall (Clinical Behavioral Medicine for small animals) are just a couple.

I realize not everyone likes every tool. I happen to abhor flexi leads myself. But others use them with no problems and love them.

If head collars on dogs are so bad how come halters on horses are ok? They both work on the same principal after all. Is it a perception because of the adjustment phase? (ever see a colt get used to being led in a halter?)

I have clients that can't use anything else due to their lack of strength. (some former stroke sufferers) And you'll see many service dogs wearing them as well. I know NEADS uses them and I have seen them on other service dogs too.

To each their own I guess.

Marie August 18th, 2007 12:07:00 PM

i really strongly dislike head halters for most dogs. just putting them on the dog is so often extremely distressing to the dog. how is that a positive experience?! one of the most upsetting experiences i've ever had in an obedience class was watching the trainer put a head halter on an out-of-control golden retriever who was pulling his owner off his feet. i almost had to walk out it was that upsetting. the trainer laughed it off, called the dog a drama queen, and finally fitted him with a front-clip harness (like an easy-walk but by a different company). the dog was no longer distressed, but still not well controlled.

i have tried them myself on two of my pit bulls. luce was not at all cowed by the head halter, but she pulls just as hard, and she's a lunger. she took off at another dog and flipped herself over backwards. it scared the crap out of me. i was scared she'd broken her neck. i bought and learned how to use a prong collar not long after that. we trained her through positive methods to ignore and not react to other dogs, but there were times when i was glad as could be that she was wearing a prong (she just wears a flat collar now).

my other pit bull is not a lunger, but he completely and totally shut down, would not make eye contact, and was extremely upset by the fitting of a head collar.

just two dogs in a giant bucket full of dogs who've worn head halters, but i still don't like them.

this article addresses the horses vs dogs argument pretty well: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html

katie August 18th, 2007 02:08:00 PM

I remember how badly the chains mess up the northern dog coat,
making a Norwegian elkhound look like she had a ring shaved around
her neck. I ended up using 3 rings and nylon rope to build a collar
for leading her that was built like the picture of the prong collar. The
idea was from a show lead I had for her, same idea but made from
leather straps-- a show lead you could tighten, instead of the plain
loop. (This was many years ago, before all the electronic stuff was
for sale.) The advantage of the leash attached to the round loop
was that the collar did not have to be only in the "perfect" position
to work. I had started working with her as a little puppy on leash
wearing and being civilized on a leash. It really bother me to watch
people letting a dog go all the way out to the end of a leash then
jerking the dog all over the place. (This was how the local so-called
trainer tried to teach heel in his classes.) Of course, what I had
was a strongly bonded, highly intelligent, sensitive creature with
some Alpha bitch issues. She did not do well with harsh methods.
It was also clear, that once she learned what a word meant, that
was enough, and the daily practice sessions the books on obedience
training suggested actually resulted in deterioration of performance.
More like training a cat...

Now, I've been working with a cat for two years. We got her at
age 6, and managed to gentle her, socialize her (formerly
scared invisible-kitty), and teach her basic harness and leash wearing
for little strolls around the yard. (She's an indoor cat, except for
these little tours.)

sj August 18th, 2007 03:09:00 PM

When we took the Dog-Aggressive classes, the trainer recommended a head halter since it's easier to control the direction of your dog's gaze (away from the other dog). Someone on the Shy Dogs Yahoo group gave great tips for introducing the halter (and muzzle) in a positive way (lots of treats and gradually longer wearing periods). Miss Dog did try to rub the halter off at first, but now she sticks her nose happily into it, because she knows it means walk time.

Mr. Scruffy August 18th, 2007 04:49:00 PM

As a professional dog trainer, I thank you for your balanced coverage on the subject of e-collars. That's right - I said e-collar, because if you're shocking a dog with one, you're using it wrong. I believe framing the tool as a "shock" collar immediately sets a negative image in the reader's mind - that of electro-convulsive therapy for mental patients or grabbing a hotwire livestock fence. The stimulation which is applied by the intelligent, knowledgeable trainer is very low - lower than that of a TENS machine, and much lower than the average, everyday static shock. I'm generally appalled by the amount of misinformation circulated about this and other training tools by people who have never seen them, felt them, or especially watched a knowledgeable trainer work a dog with them.

As with any training tool, it is not the TOOL that trains the dog - it is the application. Any tool can be misused and any tool can be abused. In the course of training many dogs and learning from many trainers, I have used prong collars, metal slip collars ("choke" chains), nylon slip and limited slip collars, head halters, flank ropes (that's not one you hear of everyday!), e-collars, harnesses and clicker training principles (I don't use clickers, per se...I use a word or hand signal for a reward marker). I also use physical touch, voice and body language.

All successful training relies upon rewarding desired behavior and removing the reward from undesired behavior, the latter being through either negative or positive punishment, to use Skinner's terms. The craft or art of training is in being able to be consistent and fair in the application of both. This can be accomplished with most any tool or method on most any dog.

Regarding the trainer in Chicago - I'm aware of the case. I'm also aware that there are a good number of quite unbelievable accusations based upon wrongful conclusions drawn by observers who are unfamiliar with e-collars or the spectrum of their application. For example, one of the accusations is that the trainer strapped the collar onto the dog in such a way that it applied shock to the genitalia of the dog. That's patently absurd - it's nigh impossible to do so in the first place, and secondly, what in the world would that accomplish? What people don't understand is that there are trainers who will strap a collar around the flank of a very small dog who might be too small to wear one around it's neck, with the box positioned over the dog's back. The sensation of a low-level stim to that area of the body would be similar to a finger tap, cuing the dog to sit. This is not unheard of in dog training circles. However, it takes a rather peculiar mind to see the strap and decide without further investigation that the trainer is "shocking" the dog in the genitals. My question would be, where was the box? The strap itself does not administer the stimulation -- the box does, and the stimulation travels only from one pole to another - a distance of about 1 to 1.5 inches under the skin. It does not travel through the body to the ground like a static shock. when you touch a wall.

That said, because of the misunderstandings of the e-collar and how it is correctly applied, it is one of the most frequently misused tools when placed into the hands of the unskilled. Today's e-collars are quite different from those of 20 or 30 years ago which had only one level - high. Modern e-collars have a broad range of intensity from completely imperceptible to quite strong. IMHO, and in that of most e-collar trainers, the stim should never be introduced as a punishment. The collar should be set to the very lowest level perceptible to the dog, and through the use of a combination of leash and collar, the dog is taught what the stim means. Some dogs are disconcerted by the stimulation at first - not so much because it is uncomfortable, but because it is an unfamiliar sensation that the dog cannot associate with anything in particular. It's like the hand of god reaching out to touch them, and it takes a little getting used to. Most dogs become quite comfortable with it within 15-20 minutes of the initial training session. I believe firmly that a dog must be taken through the learning phase of training before any tool is used as positive punishment, especially the e-collar. I have a real problem with folks who will just slap an e-collar on a dog, set it on "high" and zap him for whatever undesirable behavior they're trying to correct. It's just not fair to the dog. It is for that reason that I do not recommend that average dog owners just go out and buy a collar and attempt to use it without professional guidance.

There is a growing "camp" of people calling themselves trainers or even just "concerned citizens" who do not understand the correct application of these tools who are trying to limit what canine professionals can and can't do or use in the name of training. As for me, when evaluating a trainer, a training tool or method, I prefer to let the dog tell me how it's feeling. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see whether a dog is obedient, happy and enthusiastic or fearful, confused or lackluster. Either way, it's not the tool - it's the fool, as they say.

Just my two cents...

Tracy D August 19th, 2007 09:29:00 AM

Marie asked: "If head collars on dogs are so bad how come halters on horses are ok?"

As someone who has trained both horses and dogs, the easy answer is because a horse is a horse and a dog is a dog!

Horses are taller, heavier and stronger than dogs, Even in young foals, the pressure applied by the halter is DOWNWARD and reasonably vertical. The noseband is placed quite far down the horse's face, over the bridge of the nose or just above it. The noseband is also quite loose and does not tighten around the horse's muzzle.

A horse's neck is quite strong. The average horse can easily lift a human off the ground with it's halter, and the fact is that if a 1200-pound horse doesn't want to go where the 150-pound human wants to lead it, he ain't gonna go, period. That's where training comes in handy.

The head halter on a dog fits and functions quite differently. Fit first: The "properly-fitted" head halter has a noseband snug around the upper muzzle of the dog, just beneath the eyes and over the sensitive sinuses, not loosely over the bridge of the dog's nose. The neckband is quite snug around the very sensitive pressure points just behind the dog's ears and never offers and relief from that pressure. When a leash and human are attached, even in the largest dog, the pressure is UPWARD and LATERAL - an upward, twisting motion. To truly appreciate the difference, put your hand on your nose and pull your hand downward - that is the sort of pressure applied to a horse halter. Now, cup your chin in your hand and push it upward and to the right. That is the pressure the dog feels from the head halter. No wonder the head halter is such an effective tool - just thinking about it is enough to send me to the chiropractor!

One more big difference - dogs correct each other by biting over the muzzle, just in the area where the head halter places unrelenting pressure. This is universal dog language for punishment. Horses have no such social conventions. Many dogs will react to the halter by flattening themselves and refusing to move. It's quite obvious that they are very uncomfortable with the mere presence of this head vice. I've seen so-called "behaviorists" mistake this behavior for a sedative effect. It's really nothing of the sort - it's extreme frustration an I have seen the head halter lead to a range of neurotic and displacement behaviors, including paw-licking and aggression toward other dogs.

If the head halter worked for you and your dog, fine. I'm not sold on the idea that it's a universally beneficial tool and I've known of many dogs that just won't tolerate it. And I really would hate to think of the kind of injury a dog could sustain if he hit the end of a leash at a dead run (especially those god-awful flexi things), with that upward twisting motion it gives to the neck. Perhaps Dr. Patty can expand on the types of injuries which may occur - I'm not a vet, but to me, I would think a broken neck or at least a severe injury is not out of the question.

Tracy D August 19th, 2007 09:58:00 AM

There are arguments for and against every tool out there. If a dog hits the end of a flexi going fast on a choke collar, prong, harness or regular collar they could also be hurt. Tools need to be used appropriatly and not every tool is right for every dog and situation.

I do see your points comparing the horse and dog issue. Valid, but that doesn't negate the head collar as a useful tool with some dogs. It comes back to using the tool appropriately.

Yes e-collars have come a long way with settings and such. But that doesn't mean the people with them are using it properly.

Again, to answer the original question, I point out that behavior modification is not done using e-collars no matter what the setting or issue.

Marie August 19th, 2007 10:13:00 AM

Wonderful discussion on everyone's part, thanks all for the perspectives from trainers, vets and owners just starting out and wanting to learn their best options for their own unique dog's issues and how to best help them become better citizens. I wish I'd had an extra decade or two before garduating to have earned a few more degrees in behavior, psychology, ethics, non profit marketing and fundraising...I could go on ;0)

Alas, I'm only a DVM with experience long ago dealing with Ben, my own 90 lb fear aggressive rescue. He's long gone,now but a waitress by night and struggling actor by day way back then, I knew nothing about how to train him, and classes, books, advice from others never did much for him until I had to face euthanizing my beloved Ben due to his issues. At the 11th hour, I noticed an ad in local paper for a local dog trainer who'd take seriously problem dogs and keep them at his home for essentially boot camp for about 6 weeks. I called him, met with him and saved my tips for the 2K to help save Ben and give him a chance. This guy was a high school teacher by day, and just loved working with dogs - he had the philosophy closest to Cesar Milan nowadays. Ben needed a pack leader, and after those six weeks, I was trained to grasp the basics of the k9 mindset, pack mentality, and the judicial application of correction (in his case, a simple, light chain collar only tugged meaningfully once to gain dog's attention, followed by replacement with desired behavior instead. Ben went on to become a therapy dog, and lived out his 14 years with me as the best friend I've ever had. I had to be tough on him though, place meant place (and if I felt myself softening, I'd leave the room). I was the hardest to train after all, and it took that experience to teach me a great deal about each dog's unique sensitivities and what works for one, may not for another. If I even look at one of my current terriers sternly, she feels awful and comes scooting to my side head in paws hoping to be forgiven for whatever she might have done. A chain correction would destroy her self confidence in training, a word from me on a walk and she looks up to see what I'd rather she be doing! Her brother needs more reinforcement, but it shows one needs to know the dog you're working with.

As far as the actual shock collars, I agree with many of the posts here and my only personal experience with them is when a team of techs at a clinic vowed to put one on ME to get me out of exam rooms when I'd be taking too much time answering client's questions!!

Great topic
Rae

Rae August 19th, 2007 11:13:00 AM

Marie - having been on the receiving end of all 150 lbs. of me being dragged around or lifted by 1,000 or more lbs. of "I don't wanna", I can tell you that horses and cattle (even young ones) have incredibly strong necks! One needs the leverage provided by a halter. I cringe at the thought of what that amount of leverage could do to a dog, unless it was very large and/or muscular. (I have used a Halti on my strong, bad decision making retriever -- at venues where he can't wear a prong collar. The Halti is viewed as being more gentle. I'm very careful not to torque his neck.)

SJ - consider trying a "greyhound" style collar -- other wise called a martingale collar. They are the same design as you describe, but made from nylon or leather.

Tracy D - you rock!

Deanna August 19th, 2007 11:17:00 PM

And yet, even horses can have halters used improperly. A hard tied horse, who is tied with and to something stronger than his neck can do permanent damage to connective structures in the top of his neck. Or at the least, become reactive to being tied.

I used an e-collar after months of positive work with a newly adopted dog that showed aggressive behavior only after he'd settled in for a couple of months. (Passed all the behavioral tests given by the shelter. I think little of those tests in shelter situations now.)

I shaped him to chase cats with his head turned sideways looking at me. Sigh. He just couldn't contain the impulse for food, but he would give me eye contact. I trained him to respond to the tone first (tone means leave it.) Then I used the shock function of the collar to enforce leave it when he ran through the tone. There was three months of intensive work teaching him self control, calming behaviors, etc. first. (Also, "boot camp" i.e. you work for everything, every door opening etc. ) He "got" the collar, and was never stressed or afraid of it, even when testing the no cat chasing rule. I used the collar because living with this idiot really wasn't fair to my cats pre-collar. (His distrust of human males was a whole nother ball game. Except my vet, whom he loved from day one. Go figure. I suspect Dr. B's highly tasty packaged junk food treats, which he doesn't get at home, plus excellent vet.)

On the other hand, I freaking hate bark collars. Why? If the dog gets corrected by the bark collar, and responds by shrieking, the collar continues the correction (or at least the older one I saw used did.) What a freaking nightmare. If they're never quiet, they can't figure out that being quiet makes it stop. I had spent 48 hours with a dog, clicking and treating for silence, ignoring and moving away for barking. He was quiet in my house and yard. However, instead of then working to generalize him more on it, the rescue (members of which were currently getting behavioral degrees) didn't believe in operant conditioning for some reason and instead put the bark collar on a highly sensitive dog. So then he was terrified of crates, guess why. Some people just don't listen. Or apparently, do any reading or pay attention in class.

Compcat August 20th, 2007 02:20:00 PM

Personally, you couldn't pay me to use a head halter ever again. I have a retriever who will most likely forever suffer from nerve damage after hitting the end of his leash and twisting his head and neck around violently. We're really lucky that the resulting leash burn on his face was only millimeters below his eye.

For us, it's prong collars all around. I'm all of 100lbs, and with my 80lb retriever, 50lb rott mix, and 150lb St. Bernard, it's just not possible for me to walk any other way.

From the dog's perspective, even before our little Gentle Leader accident, my retriever's whole body would sag while wearing the head halter. He hated it... only wore it because it's what I wanted him to do. The prong collar? He practically jumps for joy when he sees it come out before our walk.

There are certainly dogs I wouldn't use it on (aggression, or fear can be worsened with prong collars) but I'll take a nicely walking dog on a prong over being violently dragged down the street after a squirrel.

Final note - I second the suggestion to put it on your arm... we actually recommend people to put it on your bare thigh and try it out. When you realize how much it does NOT hurt (it's certainly not comfortable, but definitely not painful) remember how much muscle and fur your dog has on his neck. In fact, think of two dogs playing, biting each other in the scruff and dragging each other around. It's just not a sensitive area for them... which is generally why most people fail with choke collars.

rescuemom August 20th, 2007 05:54:00 PM

I have a dog who has separation anxiety. When the neighbors started complaining about the barking, I didn't know what to do. I had to go to school and work. There was no way around those two things. I tried exercising my dog before leaving the house, I tried leaving treats and chew toys to my dog only when I left the house. He still barked (after he finished the treats of course). I tried training him by leaving him alone for short periods of time to assure his confidence that I would return. The neighbors still complained of incessant barking. Finally, I resorted to a citronella spray collar. I hated the idea of a shock collar. It seemed so cruel and unnecessary. Initially the citronella spray collar worked. Success! Or so I thought. Eventually, over time, he didn't seem to mind the spray; just completely ignored it. So much that I thought he might even ENJOY the citronella spray.

Reluctantly, I traded the citronella spray for the shock collar. It came with 6 different levels. The first being the lowest level of shock. Apparently, if he continued to bark within a certain time frame, the level of intensity would increase. When he was quiet longer, the level would reset back to 1 when he barked again. I tried the bark collar... and I still left him treats only when I left and walked him before I left the house of course.... and voila. No more complaints of barking. It was like someone turned off the bark switch in him when he wore that thing. It was amazing. He was quiet as a mouse.

So... before, I used to believe that the shock collar was a evil creation of man. But it was sure a hell of an alternative to 1. getting rid of my dog, or 2. debarking my dog. And you know what? If it works for my dog and he understands what it is, he really doesn't actually GET shocked, because he just becomes mute when I place it on him. I wouldn't say that it works for ALL dogs. I'm sure some dogs still bark through the shock. But what I am saying is that the bark collar was the right match for my dog and his personality and learning type. So it's at the least worth a try!

Karen August 21st, 2007 08:59:00 PM

I must say Karen is very right. I foster small dog breads. I get the BAD ones, biters food aggressive ones. we got a peke with separation anxiety. Thats why he ended up in rescue. Well with a lot of work I was able to get a handle on that. BUT he would bark at any thing and everything. It is a little tough when he is sleeping on the bed. A barking shock collar was the only thing that helped. The only thing was he knew when he was not waring it. Smart bugger. He is now 3 and it is greatly reduced. He has bad back legs, so he will live here with us.

Anyone who says that a person who uses one is a bad person and wishes them bad things for using one. It is not a easy chose, but may be the only thing that keeps a dog from being put down. Not me, but it could and does happen.

Richard & Joyce
"Das Hundhaus"
Problem Peke Fosters & Dog Rehabilitators
Senior Small Dog Forever Home

Richard August 22nd, 2007 06:11:00 PM

The thing is, to train, you need a warning. A prong or choke collar gets a dog's attention, so you walk him for a while wearing *both* collars. If he pulls on the smooth one, he gets the rough one. When he learns to respect the signals from the smooth one, you don't need to be forceful any more.

When trying to create an association between two things, it helps a LOT to start with them very closely spaced. A shock collar does that. You say no, and five seconds later the shock comes. Having to chase the dog for 30 seconds first doesn't teach the same way. Especially if the behavior you're trying to train against is something the dog already finds very rewarding (e.g. chasing wildlife).

But the important thing is to use it as a bridge to something gentler.

Herper August 24th, 2007 08:38:00 AM

Mike, my terrier rescue, is a hard-head. I've never had a more stubborn little guy. During his first year with me, he got into a habit of sprinting out the front door whenever the opportunity presented itself. I worked and worked; stay command; sit, lie down; etc.

I finally researched and then bought a shock collar. Three levels of shock. Beep associated with the shock. I tested the collar on myself, checking the level of discomfort for all three settings. Mike was fitted with the collar. We went about our business for a couple of hours.

I went to the front door and opened it a bit. Out went Mike. Zap on level two. Mike ran back into the house and to me for comfort and succor. This occurred twice. After that, Mike waited to be let out. He got zapped once more in the front yard as he tried to cross the street without permission.

Over the next six-months he wore the collar, but only got the beep tone - NO MORE SHOCKS. At each beep he would run to me. He no longer wears the collar and he no longer leaves the front yard without me and his leash.

I had severe misgivings about this course of action. I eventually used the shock collar because I was deathly afraid he would run out of the house and into the street and be hot by a car. As it turned out, the amount of negative training was low. The result was very positive. I thought the cost of the collar was high when I bought it. It was cheap and worthwhile for the result, even if it was about $30 per shock (not including the shocks I gave myself).

If used sparingly and correctly, they can work well.

BTW... My other boy, 12-year old Kirby the Border Collie, passed away August 12. You can read about him on the Pet Rescue Miami blog: petrescuemiami.blogspot.com

John August 24th, 2007 05:12:00 PM

John: Nice site! And local, too! I love today's pic of Vick and his twin birds. Wish I had each of those fingers in my possession. That would curb his NFL career in case the fans don't can him first.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 25th, 2007 08:09:00 AM

I have Borzoi & Greyhounds & at the moment I have two youngsters - one of each breed. They're high energy; they're powerful & walking them along with an older Borzoi can be a real challenge if not for a prong collar.

It's not unusual to have deer, turkeys & of course squirrels crossing our path during the walk & 3 high prey drive dogs need more than a snap collar if I'm to survive & be in control of things. So I use two collars on each of the pups - a humane choke & a pinch collar. It didn't take long for the youngsters to realize that being reasonable on a leash was the way to go. I rarely need to reinforce what's expected of them by using the prong collar & often now I don't bother putting it on them. Should they become a little more rambunctious than I like, it'll go back on.

And with the underground containment system... a greyhound, sighting prey (even if it's a moving piece of paper), will bolt & be gone. But after the thrill of the chase, if it's survived, it will not come back through the charge. My feeling has long been to adopters of greyhounds: visible dog, visible fence....Ellie

Ellie August 25th, 2007 09:23:00 AM

I wish the world was ideal. I wish everyone would exercise healthy dogs 2 hours a day. I wish there weren't homeless dogs. I wish everyone would use positive reinforcement.

The world is not ideal, so I recommend gentle leaders to my clients. Manyt balk at the idea that their dog needs at least 2 hours of structured exercise everyday, and if it weren't for training "tools" many dogs would never see more than half a block from their house each day.

As our world gets more complicated and busy, the life of dogs gets more and more restrained.

I want to acknowledge everyone's comments on this blog - they are all passionate! We are all proof that every issue is multi-faceted.

Dog training is just human training is disguise, and nothing acknowledges a human better than compassion. When we use compassion we open up a possibility for change.

Kirsten
www.alaskan-husky-behavior.com

Kirsten September 17th, 2007 09:52:00 AM

shock collars are not cruel that are a great way to train a dog especially for hunting. now i know some of the people here are (city slickers) i grew up working on a farm and i see animals are differant than the way a towney does. farmers use cattle prongs thet shock a hole hell of a lot more than the wimpy collars amd yes i was hitt with a prong a few times and amazingly, i am still here. in my state of PA dogs are concidered property and dont have rights. dont get me wrong i have a german shorthair pointer who i love but i think it is better to give him a shock now and again to correct him then to give him a boot in the ass. my dog is a block head when he sees somthing he thinks he needs to kill, (the nieghbors chickens). my coller is a transmitter also so i can locate my dog if he runs to far in the field. all and all i think it depends on if u have a fo fo little toy dog or a real dog.

mark April 4th, 2009 10:14:03 PM

dont get me wrong i do i repeat do not cruely punish my dog. i thiink it all depends on breed and attitude of the dog at hand. i also am in favore of the vibration collar mentioned above in other articles.

mark April 4th, 2009 10:22:51 PM

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