Vet P.O.V. Say it ain’t so! HSUS joins forces with AVAR to form HSVMA (Are you dizzy yet? I am!)

January 18th, 2008  

Add Comment25 Comments

Hey Dr Patty
I read about this yesterday. and although I was distressed I think that many vet might think this a good idea until they actually do it. What will nag inside them is the scientist inside that keeps all of fairly rationale.

So let me ask this question here. You have an event to alter cats - like cats around the clock- hundreds of cats are altered but there is no pain control. Is that cruelty?

cyndi January 18th, 2008 07:47:00 AM

Great! Just what we need...another PETA, as if one isn't bad enough. Blech!

What does HSVMA have to gain by becoming part of such a neurotic group? Is outside support of vet medicine in that poor of shape that they have to rub elbows with these types of people?

Stacy January 18th, 2008 09:02:00 AM

I believe the only saving grace in this business is that most vets know what AVAR is--and we don't like it. While HSUS gets credibility from being associated with veterinarians, some vets who might previously have felt pretty good about HSUS (as I did not so long ago) might think twice after seeing the AVAR get into bed with them. I'm still hoping this will backfire on HSUS in terms of getting vets to play along. Meanwhile, it looks good on their short-term PR front.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 18th, 2008 09:39:00 AM

Dr. Patty, what do you think of RAVS?

Megan January 18th, 2008 10:04:00 AM

I happen to like the RAVS program, just as I like a lot of HSUS's message. I just can't get behind its current administration or the direction it's heading as an organization. While the RAVS program is one I'd ordinarily love to participate in, I have a hard time seeing how I could reconcile my participation with the beliefs of its sponsor organization. But then, I go to AVMA meetings too. Hmmm...

Dr. Patty Khuly January 18th, 2008 01:38:00 PM

HSUS is not a friend of pit bulls, despite their occasional opposition to some forms of BSL (they support mandatory s/n). They loudly and publicly urge the killing of victims of dogfighting like Vick's dogs.

EmilyS January 18th, 2008 03:11:00 PM

I heard Holly Cheever, of AVAR, speak last year at the HSUS sponsored conference. She didn't sound out of line to me. At all.

She was assailing the AVMA's refusal to come out against fois gras production, and if that's not cruel, I don't know what is. Also, the panel was talking about alternatives to terminal surgery in vet schools. AGain, doesn't sound far out to me.

I think this business about "animal rights" people being against pet ownership is overblown, and you seem to have bought some of the boogeyman propaganda. I don't hear the people at these conferences talking about loosing cats and dogs into the street. Most are not against pet ownership, although most cringe at the concept of "owning" a living feeling being we should feel tenderness and responsibility for.

There are limits to "property" rights when you are talking about sentient beings - or at least there should be. The sentiments of the HSUS crowd, AVAR, etc. are constantly exaggerated and mischaracterized by alarmists.

I agree and am aware that HSUS itself and PETA itself have done nothing really to save the millions of animals euthanized needlessly every year, and I agree that the get a lot of money they would not otherwise get if people knew that.

But . .. .I have met a lot of these people and I don't hear them talking about abolishing the keeping of pets, just maybe they are uncomfortable with the word "own."

HOWEVER, it is really easy to identify a problem. What takes courage is to forge a solution.

So I hear you saying:

AVMA doesn't speak for you
AVAR doesn't speak for you
This new thing won't speak for you either!

SO, what kind of organization could YOU start or join that would provide a HOME for all of the vets who feel that AVAR is too out there, but AVMA is too . . . .[you will have to fill in the adjectives, because you probably would not agree with mine . . . but suffice it to say, they are NOT really about animal welfare].

I bet you a LOT of vets would join you if you started an animal welfare group.

BTW, someone did try to start a movement within the vet industry -- John Robb.

http://www.protectthepets.com

Last I heard, he had been pretty much assailed and attacked by many of veterinary colleagues for his conscientious and sorely needed work. Yet, those who joined him undoubtedly thought: Hallaluya, FINALLY, when they read about what he was doing.

Just a thought . . . why not BE THE SOLUTION. ??????

Stefani

Stefani January 18th, 2008 09:39:00 PM

"Most are not against pet ownership, although most cringe at the concept of "owning" a living feeling being we should feel tenderness and responsibility for. "

Huh? It's only 7:00 am, but that doesn't make any sense. How can one not be against pet ownership, but cringe/ whine/ complain at people for owning one? What should a pet owner refer to themselve as?

PETA is the 800 pound boogyman in the room. They are not about animal rights, they are about trying to force society into believing their "rights" are best. It is their right to kill the majority of the animals that come to one of their shelters, but it's also their right to preach to all that will listen to their nonsense about wearing a fur coat, even if that coat is faux. It's also their "right" to destroy others property based on a assumption that a business is selling fur coats when in fact, those too were faux.

Speaking of propaganda- I got into a debate with a PETA member a few years ago that was trying to convince a group of people that milk is cow mucus and how disgusting it was that people actually drink it. It took me contacting a friend of mine that has a PH.D in farm animals to set this person straight. When this same person was questioned about the clothing she wears, the cosmetics she uses, ect.. she was quick to shut up as she was rather fond of her fine leather Italian shoes, leather purses and wallets.If that wasn't bad enough, all the personal products she used came from companies that are tested on animals.

It was shortly after being dragged out of her little dark corner that this said person disappeared from the site that she held captive for a number of years. It didn't break my heart to see her go. She was a nut case that took everything that PETA said as the holy truth and used their B.S. to bully people...just like PETA.

Stacy January 19th, 2008 07:21:00 AM

Stefani, you are plain wrong when you write this: "I agree and am aware that HSUS itself and PETA itself have done nothing really to save the millions of animals euthanized needlessly every year, and I agree that the get a lot of money they would not otherwise get if people knew that.

But . .. .I have met a lot of these people and I don't hear them talking about abolishing the keeping of pets, just maybe they are uncomfortable with the word "own." "

PETA definitely thinks cats and dogs should be killed, rather than living with humans. In their Norfolk, Virginia shelter in 2006, PETA adopted out 10 cats and dogs and euthanized 2,930.

http://petakillsanimals.com/downloads/PetaKillsAni...

I understand some people may feel that cats and dogs are better off dead than in human households, and if that is the case you should say so.

Erich Riesenberg January 19th, 2008 11:22:00 AM

I consider myself a supporter of animal rights, though I am not a member of PETA and feel they are off base in a number of areas (though they have also achieved some benefits in the treatment of livestock, for example). I am also not a member of HSUS and agree with the complaints others have made about them here.

I read the article linked to above about the "mass slaughter of pets in PETA-managed shelters" and was horrified. I went looking for more information, but could find none. All of the information is coming from a single source, called "Center for Consumer Freedom," which is a front for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries, according to SourceWatch (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_...

Again, I am not a supporter of PETA, but I question how the animal rights movement has been demonized, and how much of the information is true.

I found myself thinking about the blog entry earlier this week on animal cruelty (http://www.dolittler.com/index.cfm/2008/1/15). It stated, "All of which begs the question: Why is it that animal cruelty has to reach grotesque proportions before it can potentially be considered worthy of major media attention and “true crime” status?"

I think these two themes are related. The goal of changing pet "ownership" to pet "guardianship" is to change the status of animals from property, which has no rights, to beings which do have rights. Animal cruelty is treated as unimportant because it is done to property. Maybe if animals were not thought of as property, animal cruelty might be treated as the heinous crime it really is.

Isn't there a middle ground for those of us who support animal rights in terms of wanting to see improvements in the way that livestock and animals in labs are treated, and stronger laws, enforcement and sentencing to prevent the abuse of pets and other animals?

Mary January 19th, 2008 02:28:00 PM

The SourceWatch link in my comment above did not come thru properly, here it is again: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_...

Note that the "petakillsanimals.com" site linked to in another comment above is also from this same group.

Mary January 19th, 2008 02:32:00 PM

Erich, you are not listening to what I wrote. You wrote:

"you are plain wrong when you write this: "I agree and am aware that HSUS itself and PETA itself have done nothing really to save the millions of animals euthanized needlessly every year, and I agree that the get a lot of money they would not otherwise get if people knew that.

But . .. .I have met a lot of these people and I don't hear them talking about abolishing the keeping of pets, just maybe they are uncomfortable with the word "own."

EXCUSE YOU, I am not "wrong" about the people I have met. I HAVE met a lot of people who at PETA or HSUS sponsored events, who very clearly are NOT in favor of abolishing the keeping of pets, and YOU WEREN'T THERE so you CAN'T call me a liar from any position of validity. I know it is easy and convenient to "demonize" the "animal rights activists" and paint everyone with one, MOST extreme stripe, but it's NOT reality. Just because someone goes to a PETA event or has given money to them, OR goes to an HSUS event and has given money to them, DOES NOT mean they agree with everything Ingrid Kirkman has written, or agrees with all the "official" positions of PETA. Or agrees with PETAs actions in killing so many companion animals.

Look, I agree with much of the criticism that has been posted here about PETA, BUT my point is: NOT everyone affiliated with them, OR with HSUS, holds these EXTREME positions that you cite. I HAVE INDEED met many of them who do not.

As for the "owner" vs. "guardian" debate -- I call myself a pet owner, because legally that is what I am, but I do understand the discomfort that many who respect animals have with this term. Surely, we should not have ABSOLUTE 'property rights' with respect to living sentient beings. AND, if you have EVER thought about reporting a neighbor for abuse or neglect of their pets, deep down inside you must agree with that.

I don't know what the answer is, but I DO KNOW that characterizing people as "EXTREMEs" doesn't help.

Yet, it is the favored tactic of the intellectually disingenuous in this country when trying to win a debate.

If you ask a liberal/democrat in this country to describe a Republican, he or she will probably describe a homophobic/racist/right-wing religious fundamentalist.

But if you get to know 100 people who identify as Republican, do you really think they will all fit that stereotype?

If you ask a Republican/conservative in this country to describe a Democrat, he or she will probably describe someone who is communist/ tax-and-spend/anti-American/pacifist.

But if you get to know 100 people who identify as Democrats, do you really think they will all fit that stereotype?

My point is: Don't characterize the positions of all people in a group by the positions of the most extreme elements of that group.

And I NEVER said I thought dogs and cats were better off dead than in human households, so PUHLEASE, stop twisting my words. Anyone who knows me KNOWS what responsibility I feel our companion animals IN OUR HOUSEHOLDS are due from us. I have 4 cats.

Stefani

Stefani January 19th, 2008 03:23:00 PM

And THANK YOU MARY, for your very thoughtful post.

Your very good question is worth repeating:

"Isn't there a middle ground for those of us who support animal rights in terms of wanting to see improvements in the way that livestock and animals in labs are treated, and stronger laws, enforcement and sentencing to prevent the abuse of pets and other animals?"

I would challenge the sincere to constructively address this question rather than take the lazy way out by indulging in stereotyping and wasting time painting "animal rights" activists as evil. It is VERY EASY to reject all proposed solutions while promoting none of your own. What is much harder is to try to come up with an alternative solution that is . . . . well, saner.

Stefani January 19th, 2008 03:30:00 PM

Stefani: Yeah, I know Dr. Robb. He's had some trouble working out of the mainstream, as many of us wo choose these paths do. I'm grateful to people like him who work hard to make things happen, though I'm not 100% sure where his organization is headed nowadays. If he's out there reading this maybe he should call me again and give me an update.

As to HSUS, PeTA, and AVAR: It's clear that all of us agree with some of their message. The question is: How much of what we don't like about them are we willing to tolerate so they can provide animals those benefits we do believe they confer? Sure, it's easyt to demonize an organization that kills so many and, fruthermore, stands in the way of others' progress on this front. But they're not *all* bad.

On the stats. Yeah, it bugs me too that the only press release on the PeTA thing is from one organization but my understanding is that PeTA has to (by law) report its so-called "kill rate." Even if you strip away the invective contained therein, these stats are still based on PeTA's numbers, not some loony organization's "secret investigation" or other suspect source. If someone out there knows how to find this source (Christopher?) (Nathan, are you out there?) we'd love to see the raw data.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 19th, 2008 04:32:00 PM

http://www.itchmo.com/report-from-peta-shows-97-of...

The source for the statistics is PETA. And not only do they NOT deny that they kill most of the animals they take in, they seem rather proud of it, as if they are morally superior for this killing. Sicko's.

And for those who have met PETA and HSUS "members" who don't want to abolish pets, keep in mind that there are no qualifications for "membership". I would bet that MOST "members" of PETA and HSUS don't understand the anti-pet agenda's of the organization.

When you meet LEADERS or EXECUTIVES of these organizations, THEN you can believe that what they say represents what the organizations' goals are.

Though you can't always trust them. HSUS would say they are opposed to BSL. But they screamed the loudest of any "humane" organization to kill all of Vick's pit bulls, and advise shelters to kill ALL pit bulls that are victims of dogfighting. But that's not "BSL" (legislation), is it...

EmilyS January 19th, 2008 05:05:00 PM

Stefani, your post is rambling. I wan to stick to the issue of PETA. I am sorry if you misunderstood my post, I meant you are wrong to imply PETA is not opposed to pet ownership. The PETA supporters you know may in fact also be ignorant.

To rephrase, you are simply wrong when you wrote this: I think this business about "animal rights" people being against pet ownership is overblown, and you seem to have bought some of the boogeyman propaganda.

The reality is this. The PETA shelter killed thousands of cats and dogs and adopts out less than a dozen in 2006. This was not a one time event, the numbers they adopt out is decreasing each year. In 2000 they adopted out over 600.

For you to say PETA does not have a problem with pet ownership is impossible to reconcile with this simple fact. For you to call this a boogeyman mocks PETA's mass killings. Why don't you explain away this fact if it is causing people to reach an incorrect conclusion? How does PETA reconcile this? Have you asked your PETA friends?

So, if you want to support PETA, do so. Don't impugn others who disagree with the approach that cats and dogs should be killed rather than adopted out as being disingenuous. Don't ask others to wallow in ignorance.

I do not want to become an animal activist because there are other issues which concern me more. However, when I read people such as you promoting a group like PETA, I feel compelled to present some accurate facts so people can make informed decisions. Groups like PETA have raised too much money and gotten too much power through ignorance.

Erich Riesenberg January 20th, 2008 07:53:00 AM

Mary, looking for the source material is always a good idea.

You can view adoption / kill rates for Virginia shelters, rescue groups and so on through the Virginia Dept of Ag and Consumer Services here: http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_sea...

Choose the option single organization and year, and then the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

Erich Riesenberg January 20th, 2008 07:57:00 AM

Stefani, in another post you write: I would challenge the sincere to constructively address this question rather than take the lazy way out by indulging in stereotyping and wasting time painting "animal rights" activists as evil. It is VERY EASY to reject all proposed solutions while promoting none of your own. What is much harder is to try to come up with an alternative solution that is . . . . well, saner.

Perhaps you should take this advice, and advise PETA to do so also. If you search for information on Virignia shelters on PETA's web site, you will find mocking reference to no kill shelters, rather than information on PETA's own mass killing shelter. The obvious, common sense approach is Nathan Winograd's, where people work very hard at placing animals. PETA ridicules this notion, and instead kills with abandon.

Erich Riesenberg January 20th, 2008 08:08:00 AM

Those people are nutty. I helped with a canine cardiology research project in college. Our dogs, sadly, had better lives than many of the pets in this country. They had food, toys, walks, runs on the treadmills (they loved it! after they learned how, of course), and hs students were hired to come give them attention. Most of them were hound mixes and one big, crazy one would get so excited when he saw me that he'd prance and scream so loud during our walk test that I kept waiting for someone to come yell at me. The drug we were testing was hoped to treat heart failure in dogs and people and it drove me crazy to have to walk past the animal rights activists who'd yell at us. Given the opportunity, they'd 'free' them to be smashed on the nearby highway. I wish animals weren't needed in research but for a lot of projects, humans surely aren't going to volunteer. And from my experience, animals involved in projects run by vets are treated MUCH better than animals in projects run by MDs. It's never wise to be an extremist...like the animal right's vegans who kill their cats with vegan diets. Sigh.

Sarah January 20th, 2008 08:23:00 AM

Erich: Though I will agree with you, I'll take issue with one point in support of Stefani's line. Not that I can speak for her, but I have heard others in Stefani's position (those skeptical of the existence of a no-pets agenda at PeTA, et al) question the contention that shelter killing is equivalent to an anti-pets stance. After all, in this country we've come to believe that shelter pet euthanasia is a necessary evil. Whether you love pets and want them to find loving forever homes or not, many of us had come to believe that the extermination of unwanted animals was inevitable. There are plenty of shelters and shelter workers out there who love animals and want them to find homes but who still believe that there's no other way to handle overpopulation. Because of this still-pervasive belief in moderate shelters everywhere, the mere killing of pets in PeTA's shelters (in spite of their high rate) doesn't necessarily translate into a strict anti-pet agenda. Stefani. Correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions as to your position.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 20th, 2008 08:58:00 AM

PETA adopted out 2 cats and 8 dogs in 2006, and killed 1,942 cats and 988 dogs. In 2005 141 cats and dogs were adopted and 1,845 killed. The number adopted gets progressively lower each year. I would truly appreciate reading the rationale for that kill rate.

Check out coverage of a PETA trial. http://petakillsanimals.com/Trial.cfm

Read how PETA would pick up cats and dogs and kill them in the van in the parking lot or driving away from the pick up site.

This trial occurred in 2007, so it will be interesting if PETA was given the opportunity to kill as many dogs and cats in 2007.

I am not advocating for any particular animal welfare strategy. I just think the debate should be honest.

Erich Riesenberg January 20th, 2008 09:20:00 AM

"The goal of changing pet "ownership" to pet "guardianship" is to change the status of animals from property, which has no rights, to beings which do have rights. Animal cruelty is treated as unimportant because it is done to property. Maybe if animals were not thought of as property, animal cruelty might be treated as the heinous crime it really is."

I don't agree. Animal cruelty isn't treated like the heinous crime that it is b/c this country (and this world) is so saturated with heinous crimes that there isn't time or place to deal with it all. And how do we define cruel if we want to? I think it's cruel when a client euthanizes her third dog with heartworm disease and brings a new dog (who will likely suffer the same fate) home. I think allowing teeth and eyes (*cringe*!) to rot out of the head is cruel. I think allowing cats to slowly and painfully die of severe smoke inhalation when we have the ability to end that hopeless suffering cruel, too. I also think a vet who yells at a young, pregnant, poor, crying girl because she can't afford the $800 eye surgeries that two tiny, stray kittens she rescued from freezing in her neighborhood need is cruel.

We can't expect people who don't respect their own, their children's , or their family's lives to respect the lives of animals whether they are owned or not. I think the lack of respect for life--all life-- explains just about all the problems in this world from war, to homelessness, to pet overpopulation, to child abuse, and on and on.

It is too overwhelming as a big picture, so I keep the following poem on my wall...

"While walking along a beach, a man saw someone in the distance leaning down, picking something up and throwing it into the ocean.

As he came closer, he saw thousands of starfish the tide had thrown onto the beach. Unable to return to the ocean during low tide, the starfish were dying. He observed a young man picking up the starfish one by one and throwing them back into the water.

After watching the seemingly futile effort, the observer said, "There must be thousands of starfish on this beach. It would be impossible for you to get to all of them. There are simply too many. You can't possibly save enough to make a difference."

The young man smiled as he continued to pick up another starfish and toss it back into the ocean. "It made a difference to that one," he replied."

and I try to do what I can.

Sarah January 20th, 2008 09:32:00 AM

If and when PETA should ever decide to go back to their grassroots as they were, I'll take what they have to say into consideration, but not a moment before then.

PETA is a group that started out with all good intentions and somewhere along the line went off the deep end. I can't say what caused the change, but it's a guess that money and power have alot to do with it. I don't see why I should give them the benefit of the doubt currently since after all, I am a pet owner and can't possibly do anything right by my own pets or somebody else's. *rolls eyes*

The night before last somebodies cat was hit and killed in front of my house. I have no idea who the cat belonged to as he/ she wasn't wearing a collar with any sort of ID. I called the police as a means to get in contact with the dog officer and they blew me off as it wasn't an emergency for a deceased cat, so they told me that somebody from the town would come and pick it up sometime Saturday. I waited all day for somebody to pick up this cat and nobody did, so when hubby came home I had him bury it in our yard.

I suppose I could have brought it to my vet and had it buried that way, but why? The only thing she could have possibly done besides have it buried via county burial is scanned it to see if the cat had a chip as clearly it wasn't feral. I could have just left it to rot on the side of the road, but since I would have to look at every day when I checked the mail or brought my son out for the bus every morning, it was easier and far less painful to give the cat a place to rest in peace even though it wasn't mine.

This little story has nothing to do with animal rights or welfare, but just because I don't go around singing the praises of PETA and like groups, does not mean that I don't give a flying fig about animals and their well being...

Stacy January 20th, 2008 10:33:00 AM

Erich and Dr. Khuly,

First off . . .thanks, Dr. K!

Second, to clarify:

What I am mainly saying is that there are people who are actually donors of PETA, or even workers in PETA, that DON'T want to abolish the having of pets.

I have to out myself here: Once upon a time, I sent a check to PETA (it was YEARS ago), and then also years ago, I went to a PETA-sponsored workshop. I did the latter for entirely pragmatic reasons -- the conference was purportedly teaching attendees how to organize on behalf of animals, and I thought I would learn something I could use to advocate for MY OWN issues of interest, which are companion-animal-care specific.

Just cause I gave money to PETA doesn't mean that I want to abolish the having of pets, although I get antsy with the word "own" simply because it implies I can do whatever I want with them/to them. I can smash my television -- I own it. Can I smash my pet? I would never do a thing like that, but the word "own" doesn't seem to describe my relationship with the animals I have taken into my life. I acknowledge the problems with the "guardian" concept. But I am equally suspicious of those who got all up in arms over the "guardian" movement, because so many of the vocal opponents were people who represent industries whose economic interests would be hurt by animals being treated more humanely, AT ALL. Or having any legal status AT ALL. For all of their rational arguments, you need only look at the affiliation of some of these groups to know that their true agenda was to to fight AGAINST improvements in the treatment of animals, because to improve their conditions would have cost them MONEY and a change in legal status might have made them more ACCOUNTABLE and that's the last thing they wanted. Because treating them more humanely would cost money.

I am not on either extreme of the "property rights" discussion, and the wackos that I have met who talk about the threat "animal rights activists" pose to their "property rights" skeeve me out just as much as the wackos who believe all animals should be loosed into the streets and there should be no thing as pets. There was a vet who was proposing some class called "sentient property" and I wish we could look into that more. That sounded like an avenue that could capture our responsibility for treating animals humanely without getting into the whole murkiness of what it means to be a "guardian."

Anyway, I met people at this PETA event I went to, and I feel confident saying that most of them are NOT in total agreement with the radical agenda you describe. Even one of the women who was an employee/speaker was talking about her cat, so she HAS a pet.

I totally agree with you about how horrific their position on euthanasia is -- and all the animals they've killed and how they have done it. If our shelter here had a kill rate like PETA's, it would ignite public outrage. I haven't given them money in years (am I a little defensive? LOL), and got pretty turned off after attending that event. BUT, I still say, most of the people there don't believe in abolishing keeping pets.

A little OT but: I testified on behalf of some legislation proposed in the District of Columbia -- an Animal Welfare Bill. I went to testify in support of non-economic damages. (I know, ya'll won't like that, but when someone negligently kills or injures your 15-year-old cat who was rescued from a garbage dump, the value is not zero, and there were CAPS to recovery. Don't worry, it didn't pass).

One other piece of this bill was to adopt legislation saying that NO healthy adoptable animal would be euthanized until all other avenues were exhausted. It was a well meaning clause, and frankly, because it had that "out" (until all other avenues were exhausted) there probably would still have been a lot of euths, but it was an attempt to change the attitude of those in the shelter community from one of presumed euthanasia to one where actual EFFORTS are made to move adoptible animals across shelters to available space, work with rescues, etc. to save as many as possible. This isn't being done -- instead of going to the trouble of calling around and seeing who has space, and coordinating with breed rescues, too many shelters just EUTH.

Of course, to fight this proposed clause, the PETA people came with horror stories about shelters with animals piled on top of each other. They definitely didn't like the idea of the city moving away from mass euthanasia.

That whole bill practically went down in flames.

As for solutions, you can't put the call for a sane, balanced solution back on PETA -- you already said they are extreme.

The original focus was this new HSVMA.

IF AVAR represents something that is so fringe and far out . . .
and IF HSUS does too . . .
and IF AVMA is too far back in the other direction . .

THEN when is someone going to come along and start some kind of animal WELFARE oriented, but middle of the road, veterinary associaton? One that pushes thing in the right direction for animal care, without being abolitionist (in terms of laboratory use, etc.).

Erich, I take seriously your throwing the challenge back at me, and you have every right to do that, but don't think I am the right person for this task. I'm not a vet, and frankly, I have no credibility for that endeavor! But I will be supportive of it if someone else were to take it on. It sounds like "ANIMAL WELFARE" oriented people in the veterinary field need their OWN organization that is NONE of the above. Too bad that all there is to choose from is extremes.

Thus it is in our country today, and that is why nothing ever gets solved, we all just stand around preaching to our own choirs, and yelling past each other.

:(

Stefani January 20th, 2008 09:58:00 PM

I don’t think the politcal bull coming from either side fools or impresses anyone.

Game plan of allied animal $$$ interests:

1. Use PETA’s own techniques to blow it back on them.

2. Call any other organization that is not in lock step with $$$ animal interests, (i.e. We will do it OUR way; butt out of OUR business!) , a PETA-clone.

The PETA clone accusations are going way beyond HSUS now so I’m not impressed anymore by any of this. (Y-A-W-N)

All I know is that very little concern is being expressed for animal welfare in all this sensationalistic fear-mongering. (Which is what hardline animal rights groups were originally accused of doing.)

Pam January 22nd, 2008 06:08:00 PM

Add Commment

Your Name:

CAPTCHA Verification