Vetcetera Ten things I learned at the world’s largest veterinary conference this past weekend

January 21st, 2008  

Add Comment25 Comments

Have you thought about hitting up Starbucks for a sponsorship deal? It seems that you plug them more than any product related to animals, Furminator included. By my math, simply getting free coffee from them would free up at least $50,000 - $70,000 a year for you, lol.

Brian Hewitt January 21st, 2008 09:30:00 AM

wow--I've gotten dinner from drug reps at conventions but they never gave ME a massage. you must have a lot more cleavage...I mean METACAM... than I do ;-)

antonia January 21st, 2008 10:37:00 AM

What do you think of the trend in human medicine of hospitals banning doctors from receiving freebies from drug reps? Items such as massages, hotel rooms, steak dinners, etc. are all banned at a few prestigious hospitals near me. The reason for this trend is that hospitals are concerned that doctors are prescribing drugs based upon what they receive from the pharmaceutical company, not based upon what is most effective or most economical for the patient.

zandperl January 21st, 2008 11:13:00 AM

So the guy who runs Embrace means to do something good?

He posted (or someone from Embrace did) on Itchmo on a discussion over Banfied's contracts vs. real insurance (Banfield makes you keep paying after your pet dies). I have always been skeptical of insurance but I really respect Dr. Robb and he says it is something to look into, but you have to know the company. I can't remember which one he recommended. With as many pets as I have it MIGHT make sense for me. Or not. But, I would never enroll in anything that limited my choice of veterinarians.

Stefani

Stefani January 21st, 2008 11:25:00 AM

Off topic, I know. But I can't stick to the irresponsible and (at least in Finland illegal) advice you got from the trucker. As a firefighter I'm appalled that someone would even consider basically ignoring a possibly fatal accident and just driving by.

And while you are a vet, your medical training would leave you very open to a negligence charge in (again, at least in Finland).

Of course I've heard advice like that before in the States. But I cannot accept a willful ignorance of others plight.

What exactly was the reason the trucker gave you?

ramin January 21st, 2008 11:42:00 AM

Ramin: He was more concerned for my safety. At that point the cars were still flying past us. We were horrified that the traffic wasn't stopping! It's unconscionable to me that with such a wreck people were driving over the fresh debris and impeding our efforts with their recklessness. Don't get me started!

Dr. Patty Khuly January 21st, 2008 12:00:00 PM

"wow--I've gotten dinner from drug reps at conventions but they never gave ME a massage. you must have a lot more cleavage...I mean METACAM... than I do ;-)"

ROFL! The best I've gotten was a ski vacation and dinner. To all you youngins I'd suggest riding that donkey now while you can because after 40 no matter how fly you still look even getting out of a simple speeding ticket becomes an impossibility, grumble, grumble. :)

Jules January 21st, 2008 12:31:00 PM

Stefani: I'm a big believer in looking to the organization's leaders first when deciding whether I like a business or not. Whether I'll use their product or not depends on other factors, of course. I can't speak to your particular insurance requirements or Embrace's plans' many details. but I particularly like that this company isn't about paying for your vaccines and basic needs--it's more focused on the big stuff that can go wrong. I believe insurance should save your butt in a crisis not help you pay for stuff that as a pet owner you should already be willing to pay for. Please don't misconstrue this as a particular endorsement, it's just a vote of confidence in the people behind the scenes based on my positive experience.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 21st, 2008 12:51:00 PM

The joy of congress freebies :) - sadly they are mostly not allowed here, above the value of a pen (unless you pay 60% tax of the stated value, and even then...)

This talk about the accident reminded me of something a friend and first-aid instructor once told me: He had been adviced (by some American Red Cross employee I believe - an American anyway ;)) that if he happened upon an accident, while in The States, he should not give first aid, unless he had a very good legal insurance, since he could end up beeing charged with negligence, if the victim, despite his best efforts didn't make it, or ended up with permanent injury
I find it very hard to believe this, but since I'm going to Orlando in a months time, I suddenly started wondering about whether there was any truth to this? - I know that my conscience would never leave a person in need, but I cannot phantom ending up in legal trouble because I tried to help somebody in need. (in fact, I live in a country with the same rules as Ramin describes: NOT helping can get you into trouble).

/Mette

Mette January 21st, 2008 01:24:00 PM

Mette - welcome to the greatest country in the world, if you believe the propaganda, anyway.

In this country it is considered a crime to leave or flee the site of an accident and you can be punished in criminal court for doing so, but civil court says you better just stand there at the scene with your thumb up your butt or someone may sue you if you try and help because it is their duty as a citizen of the Litigious States of America, err, United States of America...the terms have come to mean basically the same thing.

Brian Hewitt January 21st, 2008 01:42:00 PM

I think most states have some sort of Good Samaritan law that should protect someone if they help at an accident scene.

Jules January 21st, 2008 02:15:00 PM

Seconding Jules.

While I don't know specifics, I was under the impression that loophole had been closed.

ellipsisknits January 21st, 2008 03:58:00 PM

re: Good Samaritan laws -- they vary by jurisdiction, usually by state. I believe some states don't have them at all, in which case you are better off not trying to help (legally); other states offer different degrees of protection.

Laura January 21st, 2008 07:39:00 PM

hi~nice blog, you blog are beautiful, keep the good work and i will be back soon to see what new

GenesisCEO January 22nd, 2008 06:18:00 AM

zandperl: I believe the appearance of impropriety is there, for sure. It makes sense that consumer organizations might want to limit this activity or outlaw it altogether. However, I don't think it makes such a big difference to how we practice. Perhaps I'm naive, but I can't imagine that "rewards" or "inducements" actually change what we do in the real world. Free samples might, I guess, so that we can see how well our patients and clients respond to the offerings, but that's not on the menu--nor are serious boondoggles K Street lobbyists are famous for. Dinners out are a fun diversion that makes practice life more fun and the profession more interesting. While we learn about the drug and can get exposure to the competition's disadvantages, we also have the opportunity for roundtable discussions that tend to benefit all the products in that category. I think the only losers are the consumers who have to pay jacked up fees for drugs. It's the same for any product, though. We all pay more for marketing costs in this economy on almost all our products than we do for the item itself. Again, maybe I'm naive on this...

Dr. Patty Khuly January 22nd, 2008 08:17:00 AM

The sad truth is that people can and often will sue over anything: in our society, many people believe that every wrong deserves remuneration, that every mistake demands payment. It doesn't mean that their cases always have merit, nor does it mean they will win. However, it's a fact in our times in our society that there is a legal risk in doing - or not doing - almost anything.

I like to believe that the moral imperative is stronger, or at least more personally important, than the legal one. To live with myself, to be able to explain myself and my actions to my children, is far more important to me than the legal consequences. And if I were one with medical knowledge, I'm sure that I'd be helping in a flash. Legal knowledge in that moment, I'm afraid, is irrelevant.

But running around on a busy highway is a different story. People drive like idiots (I hail from South FL but now live in MA, so I know these things!), they don't pay attention, and they don't understand the concept of giving room to an accident. Either they are too absorbed in their own hurry or phone conversation, or they are too curious to pass by the opportunity to see someone else's misfortune. Use your good judgment, and know that you have to survive to be able to help.

As for the sponsorship, I say go for it! As long as you can live with the sponsor's name being associated with yours and they don't have any authority over content, then I see no harm in having subsidy to help you advance your interests and your message. Hill's Pet Nutrition, maybe? Seeking to lengthen the special relationship between people and their pets seems a compatible mission. And your recent comments on obesity would interest the company, too.

Susan W. January 22nd, 2008 08:23:00 AM

I share your likely naivety about the influence of drug company promotions, or perhaps I just like to believe that veterinarians are less likely to be influenced than, say, their human health counterparts, because of the level of trust involved in caring for animals. Or perhaps, because there's less money at stake. It's one thing for a drug company to pay for a speaker and a dinner for a group of 25 veterinarians at a local watering hole; it's another to jet doctors to an island and lavish upon them. I don't mean to dis' the physicians, and I don't know the entire impact of the HMOization of human health, but for the most part veterinarians just don't deal in the same amounts of money as most physicians. However, many companies see animal health and care as a growth industry, so we'll see where it goes from here. Maybe we'll start to see NICE pens at conferences....

Susan W. January 22nd, 2008 08:35:00 AM

Sorry, I forgot about the CE credit thing. Some states allow up to a couple of credits for touring the exhibit hall at conferences. The rationale is that you familiarize yourself with the latest products, equipment, methods, etc., and you probably look at books, too! I don't know that FL is one of those states but check into it!

Susan W. January 22nd, 2008 08:39:00 AM

We had a good discussion about the influences of giveaways from companies over on Student Doctor Network...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=4...

Basically, we decided that it's naive to think that you aren't influenced by giveaways (otherwise why would companies bother putting money into such a costly practice?), but it's also naive to say that you can't believe a thing that company reps tell you, since they really are the experts on their companies' products.

Megan January 22nd, 2008 07:50:00 PM

It sounds like you had quite the adventure in Orlando! I had read an article on a DVM affliated website that cited NAVC attendance to be 14,500 (signed up for Sunday and Monday). I was at the meeting as well and it is quite a bustling, exciting event. I was a veterinary technician throughout my college career and for a couple of years following. I am now a drug rep.
There was a mention about the costs of drugs, particularly new drugs. The costs of drugs are set by their potential sales (how many animals can be prescribed the drug) over time in relation to the millions of dollars in research, millions in FDA approval, and then raw materials, packaging and marketing (which is a much smaller portion that I had originally believed). The biggest cost is in the research and development and then the years of FDA processing and in legal consultation. Marketing dollars are what pay for the roundtable discussions, education on the new drugs, client brochures, product guarantees and the like (pens are huge in vet med - the staff go nuts for great pens, so marketing dollars are allotted for them).
There were also some comments on drug reps offering dinners, massages and the like. The only thing I can say is that the animal health pharmaceutical industry is not the human pharmaceutical industry. Veterinary drug reps pay for great dinners when they have their technical services veterinarian available to speak to vets about new products or if they are offering C.E. meetings. 'Extras' like massages or other 'perk' gifts are rarely given and when they are, it is typically to veterinarians who are already good customers. They are more like 'Thank You's to the veterinarian's loyalty to the product - even though the vets use the product for it's superiority in treating or preventing illness. I am guessing that the gift of a massage was given after learning of a night spent in a small rental car, just as she offered to share her room. These sorts of gifts came from the right place, they weren't given in an effort to gain business. "Courting" veterinarians in the manner that human pharmaceutical companies do is relatively new to animal health and I can only think of one company that currently does this on both the human and and animal health sides. I hope that we do not go in that direction because it reduces the integrity of the industry, the reps and the information.
This is all based on my experience and knowledge from working in animal health pharmaceuticals. The veterinarians on the blog can certainly back up or correct my accounts as they see fit.

Elle January 22nd, 2008 11:59:00 PM

Elle: That was indeed my assessment of the situation. The spa massage was a thank you for loyal use of a product I happen to buy a lot of (the only approved NSAID in cats--it's a no-brainer for me) while the hotel room was a humanitarian gesture. Will it make me buy more Metacam? Can't imagine--I use it so much already there's nothing more to be gained from little old me. This rep is just a sweet person whose motives I would never disparage.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 23rd, 2008 09:10:00 AM

@Dr P: Glad to know you share my sentiments. While there's always the risk of injury with idiots flying by an accident scene, walking well on the shoulder should keep you safe enough. And of course, if possible using your own car to block the accident area (at least partially) can also help.

If only people would learn to slow down a bit when they see an accident (says someone who has had to jump out of harms way at accident scenes a couple of times).

ramin January 23rd, 2008 09:20:00 AM

@Dr P: Glad to know you share my sentiments. While there's always the risk of injury with idiots flying by an accident scene, walking well on the shoulder should keep you safe enough. And of course, if possible using your own car to block the accident area (at least partially) can also help.

If only people would learn to slow down a bit when they see an accident (says someone who has had to jump out of harms way at accident scenes a couple of times).

ramin January 23rd, 2008 09:20:00 AM

@Dr P: Glad to know you share my sentiments. While there's always the risk of injury with idiots flying by an accident scene, walking well on the shoulder should keep you safe enough. And of course, if possible using your own car to block the accident area (at least partially) can also help.

If only people would learn to slow down a bit when they see an accident (says someone who has had to jump out of harms way at accident scenes a couple of times).

ramin January 23rd, 2008 09:20:00 AM

but dr p, metacam is NOT approved for use in cats, except the one time injection.

anonymous March 6th, 2008 03:57:00 PM

Add Commment

Your Name:

CAPTCHA Verification