Vet P.O.V. Pet "guardianship" vs. ownership: Ft. Lauderdale tries it again

April 9th, 2008  

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Are you a "guardian" for your goats.

Obviously your goats are your pets. The one I had in a curry at a very good Indian restaurant presumably was not.

So are you, as the owner of (sorry) "My Pet Goat," going to be demoted to "guardian" of a companion goat, while the farmer who provided the committed participant in the curry remains an owner of livestock? How's <i>that</i> gonna work?

You see where I'm going here ...

Anyway, towns can blather on about "guardianship" all they want. They can't extinguish several centuries of common law with hand-waving. Animal owners -- keep your receipts.

H Houlahan April 9th, 2008 08:53:00 AM

Myself, I don't have a huge problem with use of the term "guardian". I am increasingly coming to believe that, like having ruined the command "come" by associating it with negative things and having to replace it with a new word, there may be no hope for the term "guardian," itself, anymore. The same objectives might be sought, but the term may have to change. There has already been too much "chicken little - the sky is falling" when it comes to "that word".

I know that the current welfare laws don't provide anything near protection from cruelty which I believe most knowledgeable people understand happens even where the dog is provided enough food, water, and shelter. That HAS to change if we're to call ourselves anything close to "civlized."

Isolating dogs for long periods of time, for instance, is a practice that must end (with exceptions for dogs temporarily housed with shelters, rescues, kennels), since a dog is a pack animal, and it's as absurd to force it to live a life of isolation as it would be to attempt to keep a horse underwater. Dogs need exercise and mental stimulation. If a person keeps his/her child at home, isolated from the world, the child develops the same kinds of social problems dogs do in those circumstances. Yet it's perfectly okay to treat dogs this way, for the rest of their lives.

If "guardianship" means (owners) now have to be more responsible in the way they treat their dogs, then that's good, in my book.

Wait, let me back up. We're talking about the legal definition of "guardian", as it might pertain to liability and damages. As yet, few are actually discussing guardianship laws as a means of ensuring a higher standard of living. If that were to happen, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I don't think people should get a pass on treating their animals badly, or in a way that does not allow the natural behaviours of that animal. I know that responsible dog ownership, for example, does not have to be particularly expensive, or time-consuming. Thus, there's no excuse.

I'm not a huge fan of legislation, per se. It would be impossible for any kind of law to mandate good care of dogs, just as laws can't mandate proper chid rearing. That's where education and social change will make the biggest difference. Once people know how dogs are harmed, psychologically (and even physically) by not getting enough mental and physical stimulation, or by being isolated, most will (hopefully) change their ways.

I recently read (hilarious to me) commentary about how people of certain religions, etc., should be allowed to continue to abuse dogs, if that's their "culture". To me, it doesn't matter what social, religious, or ethinic group one comes from, not providing for at least the basic mental, physical, & species-specific needs of an animal is abusive. I can't imagine anyone, for any reason, needlessly abusing an animal. It just can't be allowed to happen in a civilized society. The animal's right not to be abused far and away outweighs anyone's perceived "right" to cause them anguish.

There are arguments for "guardianship" so that dog (owners/guardians) can be more correctly compensated when their living, breathing, feeling pets are negligently or intentionally harmed. A dog is not a stereo, and to suggest that its loss is no greater than the loss of an inanimate object is heartless and unrepresentative of the ways dogs are viewed in our society. Guardian-type laws may help, or maybe there's another way to achieve the same goal?

Of course, if there was a guardian law passed that mandates a higher level of care for dogs (I haven't seen one yet, but I keep hearing about them) it would have ramifications for dog owners in that region. But since I haven't seen one of THESE kinds of guardian laws, I don't automatically jump to the notion that all guardianship laws will require a person to provide various expensive surgical procedures. For goodness sakes, lots of humans go without needed medical treatment because they can't afford it. Their "parents" aren't in court over it.

Another angle of guardianship is the limited liability of "owners". I've been around a while, and the term "guardian" has also been used to better legally-define the person who was supposed to be in control of the dog at the time of some incident. While it could apply to dog walkers, groomers, or what have you, "incidents" are not especially common when dogs are in the care of these folks. More often than not, as it pertains to this aspect of the debate, the person who allowed the dog to be loose or bite someone, etc., was not the dog's "owner" but a relative or friend of the owner. Nothing legally happens to the owner, because he/she wasn't even present. Nothing happens to the person who was caring for the dog at the time, because law only refers to the "owner". Thus, no human is punished for the act of negligence. The term "guardian" can allow for liability, even in cases where the owner didn't have direct custody of the dog at the time.

I think when people want to make the best aspects (of the notion of dogs being more than just property) work in a way that'll see real improvements in the lives of dogs, it is evident in the way they discuss the issue. When people are hysterical about buzzwords, paranoid government or animal rights plots, or don't really care about the mental well-being of dogs (food, water, shelter is just fine with them, I guess), they jump to the worst case scenarios, and unlikely, definitely unproved, outcomes.

Personally, I welcome any strategy that is likely to result in a better, more humane life for dogs that are currently provided food, water, & shelter, but little else. I also believe there should be a way to legally recognize dogs as being of more "value" than a sofa, and to acknowledge they feel pain, fear, lonliness, etc.

I remain open to all suggestions, if those are the goals.

Marjorie April 9th, 2008 09:18:00 AM

I know what it is, Florida is trying to be the new California. Okay maybe not. How about we teach these silly people a new term of sorts. It's called "Stop a beating a dead horse, it's already dead."

While MA isn't one of those states that loses sleep over such things, these stories are starting to remind of things that happen close to home.

The town my husband works out of is filled with old money and the people that live there like to flaunt their old money. The catch other than the flaunting is that they have way too much time on their hands so they do things, annoying things like call the police because there is a raccoon on somebodies roof or my personal favorite...Somebody called the police to say that some guy was walking a black bear on a leash. It wasn't a bear, it was a Newfoundland.

Too much free time equals annoying the general population of any given state.

Stacy April 9th, 2008 09:22:00 AM

I think the guardian laws are stupid, not because of the implications of 'guardian' but because we already have lots of animal cruelty and animal welfare laws on the books that are not enforced. What's gonna make the enforcement of these any different. I wish I could divert all the money and energy being spent on this whole debate to bringing the current laws into play in most locales.

Lindabcs April 9th, 2008 10:23:00 AM

I am torn on this issue. I think these movements are well-intentioned, but Linda has a good point -- which is that laws are pointless without enforcement, and we already have serious problems with enforcement.

Marjorie asked: "A dog is not a stereo, and to suggest that its loss is no greater than the loss of an inanimate object is heartless and unrepresentative of the ways dogs are viewed in our society. Guardian-type laws may help, or maybe there's another way to achieve the same goal?"

Marjorie, some time ago there was a proposal (by a VET) to create a new class called "sentient property." I think this is a middle ground that is worth a harder look.

See http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/sep04/040915j.as...

Stefani April 9th, 2008 10:55:00 AM

I just stumbled on this: a handbook published by the state of Florida on the guardianship issue for people and their property.

http://elderaffairs.state.fl.us/english/public.htm...

Click on the button for the Guardianship Handbook. The requirements are pretty stringent, with training, licensing, and accounting requirements. Would Animal Guardians have to be licensed and be held to the same accounting requirements?

Can of worms indeed.

Marc April 9th, 2008 12:12:00 PM

Thanks, Stefani. :-)

I agree that something like "sentient property" might be a possible avenue for change. (I wish more people were talking about this.) But I (for the life of me) wonder why ALL domesticated animals (and otherwise animals under human care) shouldn't be protected by such laws.

The hypocrisy is most telling in the article at the link. One sentence explains the farm animal exception, "Farm animals and animals regulated by the federal Animal Welfare Act cannot receive sentient property status, Matlack said." While the very next sentence reads, "Matlack explained that sentience is responsiveness to, or consciousness of, sense impressions, feelings, or sensation."

How a dog or cat is any different, in this regard, than a cow, a chicken or a pig, is beyond me. What? It's okay to be cruel to a pig (with a higher intelligence than a dog, and maybe even as clever as a 5-year-old child) but not a dog? I admit, I don't get it.

I guess it all goes back to that Ruth Harrison quotation, "If one person is unkind to an animal, it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last, by otherwise intelligent people."

No matter what one's "business" may be, if one must be needlessly cruel to another living being in order to do it, then it's not right and should stop.

Marjorie April 9th, 2008 12:25:00 PM

I think that you hit it when it you said, "Fewer pets total, especially among low to middle income individuals who might even abandon their charges."

As a a soon-to-be member of the profession, I have to say that at first I thought guardianship laws were a great idea. But through many discussions with professors and classmates, it seems people will do just about anything to get out of paying the bill or paying as little as they possibly can get away with. Even in reading James Herriot's "Dog Stories" last night he talks about a case of abandonment by the owners (for more than just the money issue).

As my faith in the goodness of animals grows, my faith in humanity seems to decline, and I think that guardianship laws promote continual good care by the people who we already don't worry about/have issue with, and abandonment and worse care by those who scrimp by as it is.

1st Year April 9th, 2008 01:10:00 PM

Marjorie, I agree with you that pigs, cows, etc. are also feeling and sentient beings and it is wrong to treat them cruelly.

I'm just conjecturing here, but I think that Matlock's exemption of "livestock" from this designation is more strategic than rational. They are obviously sentient (IMHO), but if her movement has a chance she can't get on the wrong side of agribusiness, etc.

Should this classification be established for companion animals, I am sure that down the road the question would be raised "why not all 'owned' animals including livestock?

Stefani April 9th, 2008 04:01:00 PM

Well, that's why I included the Ruth Harrison quote. That's precisely what I'm talking about. ;-) The exemptions are there, so people can still treat animals badly, so long as they make a profit from doing so.

At the same time, I'll take bettering the lives of dogs and cats, if that's all we can get.

Marjorie April 9th, 2008 04:37:00 PM

I agree with opinions listed. I never knew all the implications and "mis-use" of the word "guardian". To me it implied the legal or temporary "caretaker" responsible for the companion animal's welfare. Speaking of which "animal welfare" and "animal rights" have been interchangable and often confused. And good point, a companion animal can be aquatic, rabbits, birds,snakes, or rodents!

Personally, I do not become offended or in a hoopla over many such terms such as "furkids, tether, shelter, etc.", but are finding different interpretations and associated sentiments to more and more words.

Maybe the legal system just hasn't become adept in this department, as it has become with words like "willful", "intentional", "pre-meditated", etc.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire April 9th, 2008 05:57:00 PM

"I just stumbled on this: a handbook published by the state of Florida on the guardianship issue for people and their property."

Uh, Marc heck no! This is for an elderly person with no relatives who is not competent to make decisions. In that case you want to make darn sure the "guardian" is not raiding their savings account.

As far as laws go, once people start enforcing those on the books, and they get no results, then they can talk about making more. I can just see having my dogs taken away because I fed raw and according to the JAVMA I'm exposing them to serious disease and also spreading disease around the community. Bah! Instead of spending more money trying to enforce stuff like this why don't they set aside money for free speuters. Vouchers from our local authorities are few and don't meet the need out there. That and good, solid free training classes for those interested would do more to enhance the lives of dogs than anything else.

People who feel their lives are out of control often go home and kick the dog. To me this is the same kind of stuff that seems to be going around lately. Gosh, your life, the economy, the War seem to be out of control, so lets legislate something..............about dogs.

Heck the protective services for kids don't even work in FL! They do their darndest to keep kids in the family setting and work with the family. I have no doubt, however, that they wouldn't hesitate to yank pets out of a home they considered inappropriate. It is what is inappropriate that bothers me. As Dr. Patty said, would they have taken her dog is she couldn't afford surgery? There would be no attempt to work with "this" family. So how is that recognizing the sentience or emotional bonds of a dog-human relationship? This isn't just about dogs. This is about valuing life, whatever kind of life it is. For me the Michael Vick conviction did more to help people understand that dogs are sentient that anything else. If they'd really spend MONEY (more animal control officers) on the issues of cruelty for what laws already exist, we'd be much further ahead. But no govt wants to spend money, especially now. It's all empty rhetoric for me.

CathyA April 10th, 2008 08:37:00 AM

I treat my pets like my little buddies, because that is what they are. I think of them as a band of tiny lost boys who are a bit thick but loveable all the same.

That said, I oppose the whole guardianship meme, which is of course the brainchild of the animal rights movement. Nanny time is what it's about.

It raises just a few questions in my mind and if I'm repeating here, sorry, I'm too lazy to read through all the comments.

1. Is euthanasia still allowed?
2. Do I need a Power of Attorney for informed consent prior to surgery, etc?
3. Do I need a sitter/nanny when I go out or can I leave my somewhat non compos mentis wards unattended, as Ii do now?
4. Who will decide what is an acceptable standard of care, assuming present laws are for unclear reasons considered inadequate?
5. If I am a crate user (which I'm not except in certain situations such as at fundraising booths) is that considered abuse? How about leashes and collars? Obedience training?
6. Will my wards now be allowed into restaurants, shops, etc, as human wards would be?
7. Am I obligated to provide education for my pets?
8. Do I need to get releases signed if I'm a breeder to allow for the adoption of their offspring?
9. If I have working dogs, do I have to pay them a living wage, or is payment in kind considered sufficient?
10. Do I need to appoint another guardian in case I peg out and would my pets have a good claim against my estate, should I foolishly fail to have a will drawn up?

There are other questions, of course.

I get the intent but I also know about that rocky road which is paved with same. This is not about true guardianship, it's about making it easier to trespass and seize property without due process.

A better idea and one that is emerging, is to keep animals as legal property but consider that they are not like most other property - therefore, their wrongful deaths (such as in places that kill dogs because they vaguely look like other dogs), theft, etc should be recompensed with due consideration for their importance.

Caveat April 11th, 2008 01:56:00 PM

I neglected to add that I have, in fact, provided for my pets in my will. There is money for their care (enough for about ten years' worth with any remainder accruing to their appointed owner), the purebreds return to their breeder which is standard practice and he will also take my back-door SPCA special Wiener dog (if he doesn't predecease me), and there is a stipulation that if their breeder/my friend is unwilling or unable to keep them for the rest of their natural lives and suitable homes cannot be found, they are to be humanely put to sleep.

Does that sound fair?

Caveat April 11th, 2008 04:35:00 PM

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