Vet P.O.V. Ear cropping on Dolittler

June 21st, 2008  

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Until the conformation show people decide that it's OK to show their dogs with natural ears, I don't think ear crops are going away anytime soon. Sadly. Do some of the breed standards even allow the dogs to be shown with natural ears? Anyone?

Dr. K, what's your POV on tail docks and deleting dewclaws?

Deanna June 21st, 2008 01:37:00 PM

This is a fascinating topic! I wonder if the vet community could work with the AKC to change the written breed standard of breeds normally required to be cropped/docked to be shown. Once that standard is changed, there really isn't any logical reason to dock or crop.

It probably won't eliminate the home scissor-jobs, but the people doing them aren't going to the vet for the procedure anyway.

anonymous in boston June 21st, 2008 01:37:00 PM

The AKC AmStaff breed standard actually says that uncropped ears are "preferred" but have you ever seen a natural-eared AmStaff in a big conformation show? Nope. And I think it's a terrible shame. They're so much prettier with ears.

One of the vets that I work for does do ear crops, but even though he's willing, we've done exactly one (a boxer) in the two and a half years that I've been at the practice. People aren't willing to pay for them, and the demand for crops in pet dogs just doesn't seem to be there, at least in the area where I work.

katie June 21st, 2008 01:56:00 PM

I will sometimes go to dog shows with one of my coworkers that breeds dalmatians. I've seen natural dobies in the ring, and I've seen them win. I think so breeds can get away with the natural look, but I'll be honest, I think natural dobies look strange. I like them better cropped and docked.

robyn w June 21st, 2008 01:57:00 PM

Katie,

AmStaff's also look less scary without the cropped ears, I think and more like the great family dogs they can be. I've had a love affair with AmStaff's ever since living with my sister who did breed rescue work for awhile. Unfortunately, my husband, a police officer, has had too many run-ins with aggressive AmStaff's to even consider allowing the breed into our home. Stinks for me but I understand where he's coming from. Now if I could just get my sister to bring one of her beauties out to visit for a few days . . . . . . :-)

Meri June 21st, 2008 02:37:00 PM

As people get used to seeing dogs imported from countries where cropping and docking are illegal, the demand for "pet crops" will continue to fall.

I rarely see a cropped boxer any more, and it used to be unheard of to have one with natural ears. Same with Boston terriers. Dobes and Danes are running about 50/50.

A friend was able to find a top-quality Rottweiler pup bred to international standards this spring -- meaning she has a TAIL. Not only do we all love that tail, but she is the best Rottie pup I've *ever* seen, and has a bombproof temperament. Five years ago, it would have been *extremely* difficult for him to find such a pup in this country. I'm also seeing cocker and springer spaniels with tails from time to time -- and they look lovely, like little setters.

Dog-show die-hards can only hold out so long against social pressure and what will become the perception that their dogs look funny and *wrong.*

Laws prohibiting or restricting cropping and docking probably are counterproductive in this country; social pressure will work faster without the show people shrieking about the gubbmint coming to get them. But the breed clubs and the high & mighty ACK may take some real drubbing before they will change "standards" to make the topiary optional, rather than mandating it as a condition of show wins. 'Cuz, ya know, "We've always done it that way." (Which is actually even a less tiresome argument than the imaginary "functional" justifications for cosmetic amputation that these fanciers of non-functioning dogs spin out.)

And while I appreciate the concerns about the significant animal suffering caused by cropping ears, as opposed to the trivial effect of neo-natal tail docking, frankly the docks are more of a problem for me. As a trainer, I find many dogs with short docks ("rumpies") extremely difficult to read, and as a working dog handler, I've seen the deleterious effects that tail amputation has on a dog's balance and turning abilities.

H Houlahan June 21st, 2008 03:52:00 PM

I'm wondering about dewclaws, too. One of my rescue dogs came with his rear dewclaws intact. I talked to my vet about whether they should be removed, and he said no, not unless they tend to get caught on things and torn (they haven't). I envisioned the removal as akin to removing a nail--and was surprised when my vet told me it was more like amputating a toe.

None of my other dogs have had rear dewclaws. I guess they are usually removed when dogs are puppies. Is it a good idea?

Arlene June 21st, 2008 06:11:00 PM

robyn, you couldn't have seen a natural-eared Dobe win at an AKC show: Natural ears are not allowed by the Doberman breed standard, which requires, "Ears normally cropped and carried erect." Natural-eared Dobes CAN compete in all the other AKC events, however, such as obedience, agility, etc., so maybe that's what you saw.

Natural ears aren't a disqualification in other breeds standards, including those of the Boxer and Great Dane.

All the breed standards can be found at AKC.org, by the way.

Eventually, all the standards will change. They just have to, as more people choose to leave their dogs' ears alone so it looks "normal," more people "in" the breed fight for change and more and more veterinarians refuse to perform this pointless surgery.

Whenever anyone tells me that ear-cropping is done for the health of the dog, to prevent ear infections or some such BS, I respond that if that were true, there wouldn't be a cocker or golden around with uncropped ears.

Gina Spadafori June 21st, 2008 07:31:00 PM

About dewclaws:

Used to be that dewclaws were routinely removed in many breeds, especially the non-articulated ones (flappy, loose kinds). Don't see that so much any more, and dewclaws seem to be left alone unless there's a problem, such as one rips mostly off catching on something.

Interesting note: The Great Pyreneese breed standard notes that the "absence of double dewclaws on each rear leg is a fault."

Gina Spadafori June 21st, 2008 07:35:00 PM

I guess I'm the minority...I think it's a choice to dock and crop. When I get my briard (the standard does allow for both natural and cropped) someday, there is no question I'll crop the ears. I feel in love with that look and don't think it's such a horrendous thing that it's going to scar the dog for life. I have a docked JRT right now and like that look over natural too-by the way he's fine and hasn't suffered any trauma from it. ;)

n/a June 21st, 2008 09:16:00 PM

that's why i do emergency medicine (at the moment). no emergency ear crops. at least...not yet. i did have an emergency hotspot the other night though...

homeless parrot June 21st, 2008 10:09:00 PM

Gina, no, it was at a local dog show. The dogs ran around in a circle, the judges looked at them, ribbons were passed out. Now, I do not recall if the dobe had both natural ears and natural tail, or just one or the other, but I do recall being surprised that the dog won.

robyn w June 21st, 2008 10:25:00 PM

I did wonder about the logo. I admire Great Danes, think they are gorgeous and every bit majestic as their description. I like all colors, and a beautiful harlequin is striking.

I have posted my opinion on tail & dew-claws before. As more and more imports are shown in this country (un-altered) , so will opinion change. Breed clubs, for the most part, are preparing for change. Some Sealyhams are being shown with longer tails (still "tipped") , advertisements from overseas, show that lovely tail carriage does not spoil appearance.

I read the law proposed in PA. that requires 'proof' of docking & declawing by a veterinarian within 3-4 days (forget exactly) and feel it is silly---since both are done w/o any sedative or medication, regardless "who" does it. What is the true purpose or reasoning for this? Ear-cropping is an entirely different story & one I know very little about and have no experience with.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire June 21st, 2008 10:29:00 PM

I was just wondering if you tried putting natural ears on the Dane in your logo.

Kristie June 21st, 2008 10:35:00 PM

Glancing over the Doberman Pinscher Club of America website, it does say that dobes with natural ears may show.

robyn w June 21st, 2008 10:44:00 PM

Where are you seeing this? Here's the DPCA club, with the same standard and the same wording:

http://www.dpca.org/standard.html

Just curious!

Gina Spadafori June 21st, 2008 10:51:00 PM

I found it, and you're right:

There is no disqualification for uncropped ears, and people can and do show Dobermans that are not cropped, in the US. But, because the overwhelming majority of exhibitors show their Dobermans cropped, perhaps it just looks like there is no choice involved.

http://www.dpca.org/PublicEd/PEC/PECEars.html

:)

Gina Spadafori June 21st, 2008 10:56:00 PM

UKC website would be my guess
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/Doberman...

AdoptedAPBTs June 21st, 2008 10:58:00 PM

Thanks, Gina, I knew I wasn't crazy. (at least over the dobie ear issue anyway...about other things...well....lol!)

robyn w June 21st, 2008 11:18:00 PM

I will try putting an ear on her. My sister can help...she does animation.

Side note: Since I wrote this a friend mentioned that she never noticed the Dane's ears were cropped. She just thought the white part of the rest of the ear faded into the background. Truly a glass-half-full kind of person, that one.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 22nd, 2008 09:29:00 AM

My little terrier mix has loose floppy dewclaws. I would like them removed, because I'm afraid it's going to get caught and they seem as if they're barley hanging on there. Also, the nail seems to grow a bit faster and then they curl up and if they're left unclipped they'll cut into his little ...toe?

By the way: where I live, I've not seen one natural dobe or rottweiler. Everyone seems to be docked and cropped.

ashleigh June 22nd, 2008 11:02:00 AM

I think ear "crops" and tail "docks" are disgusting - and I really hate the benign-sounding terms. I think it's shameful that people are so concerned over aesthetics that they'd willingly remove healthy parts. I once overheard a client say, "there, that's better!" when she came to pick up her dog after its ears were "cropped". WTF?! Absolutely shameful.

anna June 22nd, 2008 07:01:00 PM

I am not a fan of ear cropping in general but I have had 3 Dobes with cropped ears. It's extremely difficult to get them with natural ears in this country--unless you get lucky or get your puppy from a backyard breeder. My current Dobe still has her ears up in posts right now. I brought her home the day she had her ears done and gave her the antibiotics and pain medication as instructed. I'm sure it must have hurt for at least the first 24 hours but it was hard to tell. She played, ate and slept and seemed more concerned about the cup on her head than about the edges of her ears.

I haven't had the experience of the re-taping being stressful. It takes me less than 5 minutes to post my puppy's ears and she actually falls asleep while I do it. It's far less stressful for her than cutting or grinding her toenails. Maybe it has more to do with the expertise of the person doing the re-posting.

I also think ear cropping will die a natural death eventually. I've already experienced some unkind comments about how cruel it is to crop ears. I don't think it is cruel but it's certainly unneccesary.

On the other hand, there are many worse things being done to dogs in this country in my opinion. I'm far more concerned about those issues than about a one time surgical procedure done under anesthesia with appropriate pain relief.

Julie Rice June 22nd, 2008 07:19:00 PM

Yes, it's obvious the Dane in your logo (EXCELLENT TASTE BY THE WAY, DR. KHULY!!!) has cropped ears.

But I ask, is the Dane in the logo REALLY so different, in appearance, when compared to my natural-eared girl?

http://tinyurl.com/6mqz8s

You might just be beating yourself up for nothing. ;-)

Marjorie June 22nd, 2008 08:12:00 PM

Wanted to see what Dr. K thinks about deleting dew claws and docking tails....

Me? I'm all for no dew claws!! They do catch on things and amputating them is far more difficult (not recommended) after the dog is mature than it is when they are a few days old and it's all cartilage.

For the person wondering about rear dew claws: many, many, many dogs are born without them. In fact, for some breeds, it's what rescue looks for when ID'ing a dog -- if rear dew claws, it ain't.

I've heard arguments from tail-docked breed lovers that the tail is docked so it doesn't collect debris when the dog is worked. OK, I can buy that argument for lazy Australian Shepherd and spaniel breed owners, but what's the reason to dock the tails of Weimraners, terriers and other short hair breeds?

Sorry, but I'm against surgery for a "look" or for cosmetic purposes. And it's really not that hard to squirt some Show Sheen in the long hair before you run them in the field.

And, H Houlahan, when you rant, make sure you have your story straight. AKC (or ACK as you prefer -- I like your version) does not dictate the breed standards. Put another way, AKC does not tell the breeds how they are to be shown. The breed fanciers come up with the standard and give it to AKC.

Deanna June 22nd, 2008 08:32:00 PM

I have two breeds, my first and original breed is shown au naturale. I keep the nails on their front dewclaws ground short but in 15 years I have had two traumatic amputations. Blood everywhere, tremendous pain, just plain nasty.

My friend's hubby runs hounds, and has had a few horrible dewclaw disasters far from any sort of veterinary assistance.

So I don't begrudge folks dewclaw removal, only that it be done by some one experienced. And there are veterinarians who know how to do it and some who don't and shouldn't. Same goes for breeders who perform theirs at home.

Four years ago I started on the adventure of a second breed which is docked (natural tails not permitted in the ring and it's an youngish American breed so no natural tailed imports around) and has dewclaws removed. I suspect I could get used to the look of natural tails on them. But for now I have the tails done by my vet when he does dewclaws. Pups seem non the worse for wear even just moments after it's done.

I personally could not deal with ear crops. It's big time surgery and not for me. And my vet is apparently a maestro at them. Because of that, he gets the really badly done ones coming in to be revised after being botched by someone else, and they can be horrendous, lots of discomfort and possibilities for things to go wrong. Plus I have gotten used to natural ears on danes and boxers, I think people will get used to natural ears on traditionally cropped breeds.

JenniferJ June 22nd, 2008 09:49:00 PM

I think dobies are so cute with natural ears! My parents have a dobie-mix pup, and her ears are adorable. One sticks straight up, and the other flops over her head or off to the side. Her floppy ears are part of her expressions. Think how much cuteness we'd miss out on if her ears had been cropped! (And, yes, I realize that a mix is not going to be dolled-up the same way as a purebred.)

Posey June 23rd, 2008 12:13:00 AM

in the grooming salon we see a lot of both cropped and natural ears, and to be honest, though i like the look of a cropped schnauzer, I shudder every time i have to shave and trim the edges. the cropped ear can have very thin edges, making it difficult to trim safely when you have a schnauzer that is sensitive about his ears. natural ears are much easier to trim.

as for docked tails... i prefer them. when done on a very young puppy with anesthesia is it really any worse than circumsizing a newborn baby?

i prefer the docked tail, especially on cockers and terriers... i think it looks so silly when a breed with a long flowing coat has a tail. cockers tend to be a messy-bottomed breed, yorkies as well, and the tail just seems to collect dingleberries.

i have noticed that most docked-tail breeds sem kinda sensitive about their 'nub' though...

charity June 23rd, 2008 12:33:00 AM

I don't like to dock tails or remove dewclaws--but I do, because the hospital I work at does, and I consider it a not-unreasonable concession. *I DO, however, use pain control measures.* Ten minutes before the procedure I inject tails and footies with Marcaine (bupivicaine). They still struggle but they don't yowl as much (pups often yowl when restrained away from mom so it's hard to judge what's pain and what's plain complaining) and the drug lasts for a couple of hours at least.

On the need for dewclaw removal: unless we're talking about working or heavy hiking dogs, they almost never get into serious trouble (I can't think of the last time I dealt with a traumatic amputation of a dewclaw). And here in suburban Miami, dogs seem equally likely to fracture/rip the other claws as the dewclaws. They don't cause me much grief.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 23rd, 2008 08:37:00 AM

I have great hopes that uncropped and undocked will become the norm in the US as it has elsewhere--at least for normal pets. I was reading that in Asutralia owners of natural bob-tailed dogs are now having to carry paperwork compelte with puppy photos to prove they are innocent of docking, just to get vet treatment. Extreme perhaps, but one hell of a shift in attitude.

emily June 23rd, 2008 10:59:00 AM

It's important to note that we call two very different appendages "dewclaws."

Front dewclaws are standard equipment on every canid. Wolves & coyotes have 'em. They are functional. They are part of the dog's wrist assembly. Good stop-action photography shows how they grip the ground on fast turns -- yeah, you have *no idea* how much a dog's pasterns extend at speed until you've seen the photos. Those dewks are there to do a job.

Rear dewclaws are a mutation that occurs in some dogs -- like polydactyly in cats. No wild canid has them. They have no adaptive function, and are often quite dangly and weakly connected. They cannot help the dog, and could hurt.

In 17 years in SAR, I've never seen an injury to any dewclaw (and I have seen some doozies to other toes and pads), but I've had other handlers tell me about nasty rips to dangling rear dewks that were not removed when the dog was a pup. (Pound pups turned into SAR dogs, and Beauceron, where the double dewks are "in the standard.")

My position on dewks is: all dogs should have their front thumbs. No reason to remove them. Nails should be kept clipped. If rear dewks are present, they should be clipped off within a day or two of birth. If you get a pet that has rear dewks, don't worry about it unless they are really dangly and low, or are getting caught on things -- if so, have them off when the pet is neutered or has another anesthesia, and expect some picking at the site -- it seems to bother them a lot, appears to be itchy. A real working dog should have the rear dewks removed, because shredding them in the field is a lot more painful.

One of my working dogs came from a breeder who removes all dewclaws. I see her get frustrated when she's trying to groom her own face or grip a bone. Her babies keep their front dewks. Three of her 18 offspring were born with rear dewks, and I had those off when they were a day or two old.

I've taught Pip's son and daughter to "gimme five." Poor Pip does not respond until I ask her to "gimme four."

H Houlahan June 23rd, 2008 11:21:00 AM

Thanks for that, HH. The gimme four--cute!

Dr. Patty Khuly June 24th, 2008 08:00:00 AM

I think breeders will do it anyway. I know of many show breeders who do their own tail docks, dewclaw removal, etc.

Mine always go to the vet

jen June 24th, 2008 10:37:00 AM

Jen: For a while, yes they will. But let's not forget that when they do so it probably amounts to animal cruelty. What kind of safeguards to they have for delivering anesthesia properly? Pain control?

A few well-publicized breeder misadventures and the public will have its say.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 25th, 2008 08:11:00 AM

I guess I'll repeat myself. I brought my Sealyham pups to the vet for dew claw and tail docks. NO type of pain reliever was suggested or administered (didn't even know you could for a pup that young). The tails seemed to be a non-issue----the dewclaw removal seemed to be very painful.
For 30 years, all my Scotties have there front dews, never had an issue (knock on wood!!). They run in dense brush, dig, etc.

Briards are required by standard to have "rear" dews---lots of people work their dogs. Have not heard that the rear dews have been a problem, but only know a "few" Briard folks.

Another animal cruelty issue? oh, boy

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire June 26th, 2008 07:35:00 PM

It should be entirely up to the dog owners if they chose to get their dog's ears cropped and dewclaws taken off or not, NOT some off the wall PETA group type people. There are alot of vets and private ear croppers that do a wonderful job. It was never painful for my Danes and if you take care in taping, the ears turn out beautiful. My danes never had a problem with the retaping process. Great Danes just look like giant Labs with their ears natural. Dewclaws are much better taken off than left on and it does not hurt the puppy when it is done when they are only a few days old. I had a dog that someone left them on and it got infected when he was older and casued much pain and cost when it had to be removed. There should be more energy from these groups put towards going after puppy mills and Amish breeders that this topic.

danelady June 30th, 2008 08:26:00 PM

I am late to the party but I have to throw in this tidbit.

I wonder how much cropped ears and tails play into the possible interferance of dogs communicating with each other. (since body language is their main means of communication) I know when we got our frenchie (naturally tailless) is was a learning curve to reading her for me.

I would love to see stats of dogs in other countries that are natural vs ours that are cropped on the subject.

Marie July 1st, 2008 12:48:00 PM

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natti June 10th, 2009 05:41:37 AM

I find it strange that we can demonize ear croppingwhen most of us are fine with spay and nueter procedures. We castrate or boys and gut our girls because we feel we cannot keep our pets under control and prevent un-wanted puppies. Or worse, we might have a "mess" in our house when our girls come into season. While I agree cropping ears is pretty bad and unnecessary, I see it causing less harm over all to the life of a dog than removing organs needed to produce hormones necessary to the development of the animal. Ron

 

Ron July 23rd, 2009 02:51:15 PM

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