Vet News On Spanish apes and animal rights

July 15th, 2008  

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Unsurprisingly, this move makes me happy.

I think the "animal rights" debate is akin to the "gay marriage" debate in this sense only: The words inflame people so much that it blurs the issue and passions make it impossible to try to compromise.

It's not that I am against animal rights. It's that "rights" themselves are figments of the legal system built as a part of human society. Whether morally right or wrong, we have only those rights that the law gives us, save an appeal to basic humanity.

Years ago I heard about a compromise approach that would move the bar forward in a less controversial way. It was the concept of "sentient property."

The argument goes something like:

Although the law may view pets/animals as property, they are not property in the same way a chair is property. They are sentient, feeling, thinking beings. As such, we shoud grant them (since it's our legal system we are talking about) additional rights and protections under the law.

This is a way of acknowledging the weird, never land animals occupy within our legal system and attempting to begin rectifiying it without begging the question of animal rights.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than what we have at first blush.

Personally, I don't believe in the Biblical dominion concept so often quoted. If there were a purpose for our supposed (big stretch) superior intelligence, it would be to serve as protectors and stewards of the creatures and the planet's life, not as usurpers and exploiters. But how to get off that wheel? Small steps . . .

When my kitty JuJu sees me sad, runs over, meows, and nuzzles me, I know she has stuff going on in there both mentally and emotionally that should be worth some recognition under the law.

Stefani July 15th, 2008 09:16:00 PM

Never in my years, did I ever think that the concept of "animal rights" would cause such a division among those that value companion animals and precipitate so many, to abandon their ethics and morals, to stand so far on one side or the other.

It seems now that if you are anti-cruelty or pro-humane, suddenly you are an animal activist. If you view animal experimentation, want to eliminate puppy mill conditions, you are on the "slippery slope" of losing your rights to have a companion pet, or participate in conformation/performance events.

I just don't get it, I'm lost. To feel/receive negativity in my own state for something so basic as reform/clarification in the "humane euthanasia" law for companion pets; illustrates how backwards and ignorant people really are. I urge people to view their own state laws; many are in process of revision---many are already clear and concise; and obviously got that way for a reason.

Yes, I see the irony that 'bull-fighting' Spain is on the forefront; but Europe as a whole is leading the ways with many such reforms.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire July 15th, 2008 09:52:00 PM

Very interesting. We humans do appear to have very arbitrary logic when it comes to animals.
Why is it seen, by society at large, as acceptable to eat sheep and cows, but not horses?
Why do we actively allow rats and mice to be painfully poisoned by warfarin (death by internal bleeding), yet we would consider this inhumane in other species?
Why is it seen as acceptable to catch and eat Tuna or Salmon, yet we are horrified when a Dolphin gets caught in the net?
Generally the cuter/more beautiful an animal looks and the more socially interactive it is with us, the more “rights” we allot to it as a species, so this debate over Apes is not surprising as they act and look so much like humans. If apes are to have the same “rights” as humans in this bill, keeping existing ones in zoos would seem to be at odds with this as we wouldn’t lock up a human with no justified cause.
The bill appears to confuse animal rights Vs animal welfare, which are completely different debates.

Circe July 15th, 2008 10:04:00 PM

As someone who has worked closely with both chimpanzees and orangutans, it is not their genetic closeness that inspires me to want them offered better protection such as they are hoping to give in Spain. It is their sense of self, of sentience. This is much more than tool use. These non-human primates have a sense of self - they recognize themselves in mirrors or pictures, they can learn American Sign Language and communicate thoughts and feelings. They can tell jokes and lies (check out http://www.koko.org/index.php ). Our genetic overlap with non-human primates extends to those parts of us that we feel are what make us human.

Meg July 17th, 2008 07:37:00 AM

"And why is “tool use” so darn spectacular relative to “excellence in cuddling”? How does higher cognition on a certain order influence your degree of rights? By that standard some humans deserve more rights than others. Now, can that be right?"

Cognition matters because it's the ability to understand what's happening to you, to have fears and hopes and dreams about the future, not just the Right Now. To have a CONCEPT of "rights." To have a sense of Self and Other.

The animals that, from all we can tell now, are closest to us in these things are the other great apes, elephants, dolphins. (I would not be astonished if, in a couple of decades, we need to add African Gray Parrots to that list. Right now, we don't have enough evidence.) Acknowlediging that and accordingly recognizing a claim to a greater degree of protection and consideration than other animals, seems to me to be the correct thing to do--and no, I don't think that doing that means we have to decide that mentally handicapped humans _don't_ have those same rights. Honestly, I think that's the kind of thing that the phrase "a foolish consistency" was invented for.

Dogs and cats and horses, although they have much higher cognitive abilities than the fuzzy-automaton worldview will grant them, are clearly not on the same level. But we HAVE included them in our families, enjoying not just their practical skills (rodent-killing, bomb-sniffing, jumping fences, whatever) but their abiility to form social bonds with us. We owe them because we've formed social bonds with them, and as the partners with the bigger brains and higher cognitive abilities, we have the greater responsibility.

Wild rodents, though, are not our near-equals, and not our social partners Wild rodents, if not controlled, really do threaten the food supply and serve as a disease vector. The plague epidemic in the fourteenth century was not a product of bad air currents or lack of bathing.

Do I think using warfarin to kill rodents is good and humane? No. But why don't we regard rats the same way we regard cats, dogs, the great apes, dolphins? Because they're NOT THE SAME. And the difference isn't that they're not cute and cuddly, or at least not that they don't have the potential to be. Ask anyone who has ever had a pet rat.

Lis July 17th, 2008 09:13:00 AM

Just because an animal is intelligent and capable of cognitive reasoning doesn't mean it warrants the same consideration, or rights, as humans. I'm not opposed to more humane treatment when it comes to animals, be they great apes or chickens; however, I'm totally opposed to any legislation that would hamper legit medical research. I hope all the Spaniards ( and other folks around the world) so opposed would also deny any medical treatment for themselves that is the result of research conducted on apes or other animals they feel deserving of said protections... otherwise they might be described as hypocrites.

Chip July 17th, 2008 12:25:00 PM

Meg, I don't think "chimpanzees and orangutans ... can learn American Sign Language...". They can learn the signs from ASL, but I don't think they can use the grammar of the language. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Marcella July 18th, 2008 02:32:00 AM

With “rights” come “responsibilities”. Animals have no responsibilities to us or towards each other in our society. An ape has no responsibility not to kill or injure his trainer, and if he did so would not be expected to understand he has done anything “wrong” as this is an unrealistic expectation of any non-human animal.
I do however, fully believe that we, as human beings, have a moral responsibility to treat all animals we interact with as humanely as possible as they are sentient creatures.

Pigs are also highly intelligent and yet they are subject to some of the worst farming procedures in regards to animal welfare.

Circe July 20th, 2008 08:01:00 PM

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AF September 20th, 2009 02:31:56 AM

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