Your response was pefect. Some people NEED a rude response to wake them up.....and I truly hope this poor dog doesn't have any more litters.

Donna September 29th, 2008 10:05:00 AM

Well, it's also important for children to learn the tragedy of death. I just wish it weren't caused so directly by their own mother. I think if it were me I would've snapped back something "you know there's reasons we outlaw incest in humans." It's not "the miracle of life" that you're against here afterall, it's the inbreeding.

zandperl September 29th, 2008 10:35:00 AM

Is this the client who announced her intention to breed uncle to niece?

But, ya know, there's no such thing as inbreeding depression in dawgs ...

H Houlahan September 29th, 2008 11:02:00 AM

To paraphrase another comment, next time you can say, "well they are also going to experience the miracle of death."

2CatMom September 29th, 2008 11:05:00 AM

That ranks right up there with "my dog and my neighbor's dog would have cute puppies!" and "I think my dog would be a good momma" for terrible reasons to breed your dog.

For crying out loud, get a videotape for your kids if you want them to experience "the miracle of life". Or buy a pregnant hamster - seems like pet stores always have at least one. Too many dogs end up in shelters this way.

Courtney September 29th, 2008 12:01:00 PM

I might buy that comment in the days before the internet, but there are enough videos free on uTube and other video hosting sites that they do not need to actually breed to experience it.

and really, what benifit is there to this experience anyway?

connie September 29th, 2008 12:33:00 PM

I hate people. Breeding the family pet to make a profit off of the pups is just disgusting. Poor mama dog. I guess it's too much to hope that she'll be spayed after two experiences like this.

Kristie September 29th, 2008 12:41:00 PM

Makes you wonder who the *real* bitch is here. :(((

Barbarella Buchner September 29th, 2008 01:09:00 PM

Those poor suffering pups. Makes me want to cry.

Roxanne September 29th, 2008 01:25:00 PM

I recently had my fourth ever, in twelve years, litter of yorkshire puppies. I'd done reading and research before each litter, reviewing current standards of veterinary care for whelping bitches. I have shown, and I bred with the yorkshire terrier standard in mind.

I've only lost one pup, which was stillborn.

Before the most recent litter I was browsing web pages, and one breeder expounded that only 75% of puppies born live survive to weaning. That is one statistic I have a hard time swallowing, considering I have never heard that it is normal to lose puppies after they are born.

My current litter is now ten weeks. Ultrasound revealed that she had three embryos. All three were born alive, all three are healthy and active at ten weeks. They have been evaluated by a vet, no problems.

That said, I was very anxious at each and every whelping because I understand the potential for a life-threatening medical emergency, and the potential expense. Those who breed without those risks, and the potential costs, in mind are clearly negligent.

I imagine you see many bitches who come in with stalled labors, or post-dates, etc in need of a c-section, but the owners are unable to pay. Somehow the thought of medical emergency never crosses their mind when they think of 'the miracle of life' or squiggly little puppies. Amazingly, I'm sure many of these people have children. Almost anyone who has given birth in America is aware of the importance of prenatal care, and almost all have given birth in a medical setting.

I just don't understand why this doesn't cross their minds.

Jennifer September 29th, 2008 02:16:00 PM

75%? I think that's a very high average for teacup Yorkies, low-ish for larger ones. It seems the teeny-tinier, the greater the loss, most likely as a result of inbreeding and genetic incompatabilities than from husbandry, in my experience.

And, yep, it's true. People freak when they see the estimate for a C-section. I've taken to keeping one around so I can show it to the uninitiated owners of dogs who "just want one litter so she can have the experience."

Makes me want to throw up.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 29th, 2008 03:16:00 PM

I don't even understand the point of her phone call - what in the world did she expect you to do? I'm glad you didn't sugarcoat her response - this woman obviously needs to hear it straight b/c she's too dense or in too much denial to figure it out on her own. Shame on her. I truly have zero sympathy for amateur "breeders".

anna September 29th, 2008 03:35:00 PM

My response?

"Lady, your kids experience the "miracle of life" every day of their freaking lives."

SunRaven01 September 29th, 2008 03:56:00 PM

you have much more restraint and professionalism than i. i dont understand why anyone would think that i would be ok to breed a dog who 1) recently had a litter 2) most of the first litter didnt survive. didnt her kids see the wonders of life and the sadness of death then? or did she think a do-over would have an outcome that she liked? i can remember as a kid we had a bull mastiff and part of the deal was that the breeder could breed her once and get some of the puppies. indy never conceived. she kept miscarrying or had false pregrancies. eventually my parents told the breeder enough that obviously something was wrong and it wasnt good for her (indy not the breeder:) the breeder was a bit put off, i guess indy was some great example of the breed but to us she was family. years later she actually contacted my parents again and wanted to breed her to another male because she felt it was the male causing the issues. my parents refused. i also think that breeding so your kids can experience the miracle of life is a lame one. i think that breeding should be taken very seriously. not only for the mother but for the puppies. their are so many unwanted, unloved, uncared for animals in the world that breeding without care is unresponsible at best.

katy September 29th, 2008 04:40:00 PM

Bravo for your professionalism Dr. K.....you showed good restraint. Unfortunately I find that after my "professional restraint", I'm always struck with "Jerkstore" moments (a-la Seinfeld....lol). Best to let it out here!

I am sad and sickened at that woman who put that Momma Sog through such a painful experience, not once - but TWICE. That dog has undoubtedly suffered at both the birth and death of her offspring.

Creature of Habit September 29th, 2008 05:55:00 PM

*dog

Creature of Habit September 29th, 2008 05:55:00 PM

We had a neighbor with an unspayed Amstaff who stated, "I can't afford to have her spayed and we're going let her have a litter so we can make some money out of selling the puppies".

I don't have to tell anyone here what I thought and felt!

I'm very pleased to say I (for once in my life!) managed to keep my emotions to myself (did have to live next door to these people and our kids were friends) and just casually mentioned the high C-section rate in dogs of this type and particularly with small bitches as this one was. I shamelessly made up some stats which for all I know weren't that inaccurate. I also casually mentioned how a friend's dog had needed a C-section some 25 years ago and how it had cost around $750 back then and muttered something about how these things often happen at 3.00 am and the costs of emergency after hours care, too.

They never did breed that dog - despite having a possible sire living two doors up. She was never spayed either unfortunately and was later given away to someone who wanted to breed from her - but I did my best and it did help to an extent I'm sure.

Alison September 29th, 2008 06:24:00 PM

you did the right thing. sugar coating it doesnt work with people who dont want to hear it in the first place. also, a weak excuse for breeding anyway. take the kids to a shelter and show them unwanted pets - that would be better for their education.

Robin September 29th, 2008 07:21:00 PM

Good for you! I'm glad you didn't hold your tongue. But as sorry as I feel for this poor bitch (the Rottie, not the woman!) and the babies, I'm glad the woman is having such a rotten time of it. Hopefully she'll learn her lesson and quit breeding the poor dog. Her kids HAVE experienced the miracle of birth by witnessing this little drama - if life were a given, it wouldn't be a miracle would it?

I guess the only possible silver lining here is that those kids may be a little traumatized by this, and be a lot less likely to grow up wanting to breed dogs!!

I've got a question about reabsorbtion - does this actually happen when embryoes die early in gestation? I've heard this term all my life, but I'm asking because the mammalian uterus isn't really a digestive organ :-)
Isn't it more likely that the tiny embryo is expelled, and just not noticed by the owner?

Barb September 29th, 2008 07:54:00 PM

I've heard the average for breeding certain cats is a 20% mortality rate- of course, a lot of breeders of this particular breed have massive catteries and many Queens birthing/raising litters at the same time. I strongly believe that within a cattery where there is only one litter on the ground at a time- with an owner that is home (versus working)- that the mortality rate would be much, much lower. I could be wrong! But I think I definitely could be right!

I can imagine you wanted to bitchslap this woman- LOL. I'm amazed at your ability to hold your tongue sometimes!

I KNOW there is a great poem about the 'miracle of life' in regard to spay/neuter and animal rescue, but darn if I can find it!

Emily September 29th, 2008 08:12:00 PM

I found the poem:

It is here

http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/fixed.html

It's by a vet.

Maybe someone should send it to them, anonymously.

Stefani September 29th, 2008 08:43:00 PM

Not fully preparing for a litter of pups to include prenatal care, planned researched breeding, and finances available in advance of worse case, is inexcusable.
To take an unpopular opinion though, my first thought of 9/10 dead, fading pups or high mortality would be infection or premature whelping, not the inbred theory.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 29th, 2008 09:34:00 PM

Barb: That all depends on the timing. Reabsorption is a poor choice of descriptors but in effect these tiny ones are not necessarily expelled so the term isn't completely off. Mummification of the fetuses is another possibility, as is simple abortion (expelled fetuses), which we see more commonly with infections like brucellosis.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 30th, 2008 08:14:00 AM

That's the poem- damn, haven't read it in years and now I have tears in my eyes again...

Emily September 30th, 2008 01:44:00 PM

Barb: I ditto Dr. K's comment. One of my Scottie bitches had what appeared as a "split" heat post-breeding, she whelped 3 pups. I am convinced that it was a partial loss of her litter.
Her "daughter" from that litter had open pyo at the age of 18 mos, treated w/ lutylase (sp?) and bred on subsequent season. She free-whelped 4, than had a C-section for a mummified pup & one suffocated in the sac.

Oh, yes, the joys of breeding, not for the faint of heart.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 30th, 2008 07:03:00 PM

A good answer to someone who says they want their kids to experience the miracle of birth is to refer them to a local humane society or animal shelter. The chances that they have a pregnant bitch (or pregnant kitty) who needs a nice home to whelp her pups in are pretty good.

:-)

Deanna September 30th, 2008 09:36:00 PM

Deanna: That is the best one---simple & to the point! Luv it!

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 30th, 2008 09:56:00 PM

I'm proud of you.

Sylvia October 1st, 2008 06:45:00 PM

I'm proud of you, too. This woman is an idiot!

Poor Mama Dog. I really hope they get her spayed, but I think that's expecting too much of people like this.

~Jen M.

Jen M. October 2nd, 2008 02:39:00 PM

One thing I want to say, Dr. Khuly, is that there is no such thing as a teacup yorkie!!

I really hate that terminology. If you go by breed standards, the AKC and the YTCA (Yorkshire Terrier Club of America) recognizes the yorkshire as being between 3 and 7 lbs. Within the standard, there aren't any subdivisions among the weights,.. no toys vs. minis vs. standards as in poodles and schnauzers.

The YTCA forbids members from using 'mini' 'teacup' 'dollface' etc to describe their dogs.


I have a 12 year old yorkie that weighs 4.5 lbs. I have a three year old female that weighs 6 lbs, and a 8 year old male that is 5.2 lbs. I've been told (and have seen) that the weight at twelve weeks is a decent predictor of adult size. At twelve weeks I weigh the pup, a healthy, well fed pup usually weighs about twice that at adulthood.


I've had people come look at the puppies, and choose another puppy because the breeder will guarantee that the pup will be under three lbs at maturity, even though the pup is the same size or larger than mine at the same age! Why would you want a super-tiny example of a breed? The super tiny ones have a higher incidence of health problems, and if you show it's usually not worth putting a female under 5 lbs in the ring as bitches under that size are often not bred due to a higher rate of whelping issues.

I just don't get the 'miniature' and 'teacup' and 'micro-mini' craze. If you want a small dog why would a difference of a pound or two be a dealbreaker? Especially when the health of the dog could be the ultimate price paid for the small difference in size and the choices that have gone into producing a dog of that size?

Like the backyard breeding thing, to me it doesn't make sense logically, fiscally, or cosmetically/esthetically...

Jenn October 4th, 2008 12:52:00 AM

the question is, did her children even WANT to experience the 'miracle of life'? When I was a kid I think I would have been horrified to witness my family pet curled up in a ball, panting heavily, before pushing a bloody sac of puppy out... shortly followed by the afterbirth, which usually gets EATEN by said family pet.

Jeez, seeing it as a 20 year old was dizzying.

Plus, does anyone take the pet into consideration here? the poor animal is seeking out a quiet, den-like environment to give birth. the last thing she needs is a bunch of noisy kids grossing out as she downs her fourth placenta.

Charity October 4th, 2008 05:06:00 PM

I am just so glad that wasn't me talking to her. Being involved with rotties for 20 yrs and rescue for 10 yrs, and having whole or half litters into rescue which are not selling, and knowing that half of the dogs placed are in unsuitable homes and will end up back with us, other rescues or PTS, it breaks my heart to hear stories like this. Just hope she is now considering having the bitch spayed.

Lorraine Day December 9th, 2008 08:57:03 AM

I have a yorkie that we recently found out is pregnant. It is a house dog and has mainly only been around are male yorkie but he was killed 6 or 7 seven wks ago. Unless a male dog (not are male yorkie brody) has slipped in a pregnated are yorkie angel. We were so excited to find out that angel the female yorkie was pregnant because it was really hard on my wife and four children when brody passed. I was just wondering just in case a neighbor dog pregnated my dog is there a test that could tell you if the future pups are from my dog (brody male yorkie). because I would hate for angel to be pregnant by another dog, especially a bigger dog which could endanger the life of are little angel (yorkie female). The dates that are male yorkie was alive and the length of pregnancy in my thoughts add up that brody is the father. I was just trying to get answers before telling the children that are angel is pregnant with there friend they miss. thank you

chicago January 23rd, 2009 09:23:38 PM

Can I Bread my female Poodle to my male cat. They would in my mind make beautiful cadoodles. I think could make alot of money what do you all think a good pricing range would be, because I have breed a cow to a paint horse. I made a killing off of the painows as we call them in arkansas. any information on this please contact me Colton Ebert 1-580-612-1357

jack January 23rd, 2009 09:43:12 PM

Chicago, do you really want an honest answer? please take the time to read this forum and the intellectual posts on it and ask yourself whether you really want an honest answer.  The reason I imagine you have not had any replies apart from this one would be one of sheer frustration.  People who post on this site  have probably not got the energy to bottle their pent up frustrations to reply in a polite manner.  I would have liked you to visit these sites before you let your bitch in heat loose with all and sundry.  There was an equally intellectual debate on this forum regarding spaying.  You should read it sometime.

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