How nice to know that the Mom is passing on her genes.

nancy freedman-smith cpdt October 12th, 2008 11:44:00 AM

That sucks!! What an asshat breeder. The Corgi mom actually may be OK temperament-wise... all bets are off when puppies are concerned because even the sweetest dog may be over-protective. And although most well socialized mother dogs will tolerate humans handling their pups (with proper introductions and proper precautions) they usually WON'T tolerate other dogs near their puppies. Obviously I wasn't there, but I'll bet that was the catalyst for the attack.
But like you said, Dr. Patty, that mother dog shouldn't have been there at all. And this is why!
I hope the poor poodle recovers completely, and I hope that Karma kicks that stupid breeder in the butt one day soon.

Barb October 12th, 2008 12:27:00 PM

Actually, this story touched off a host of memories for me---some pleasant, some funny, and not so.

From a purely objective POV, I'd have to ask a bunch of questions, including why the poodle & owner got so carelessly close to the corgi. #1 in my book, is pay attention to protect your dog at all times. Many a time, I would risk my own appendage (leg,arm) than have a teeth to dog contact.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 12th, 2008 01:17:00 PM

For one, that breeder does NOT need to breed that corgi. Even if puppies are involved, I wasn't there of course, but I doubt the puppies were on the floor running around and needing protecting. When I picked out my corgi puppy, the mother dog had no problem with letting people and another dog touch the puppies.

On this whole hybrid dog thing -- I'm completely against it. I would never shell out a bunch of dough for something I could find at the pound that actually needs it. For the most part, it's the ones that breed the hybrids that are more or less doing it for the money.

ashleigh October 12th, 2008 01:30:00 PM

Have to agree with Ashleigh. If puppies are involved or not, it's NOT appropriate temperament. There are a LOT more seriously dog aggressive corgis than there ought to be out there. No need for more of THOSE genes.

And corgi x shih tzu? WHY? Ugh.

PS: Cute fluffy in the graphic, though? Is that a client or stock photo? My next corgi is totally going to be a fluff.

PPS: Indy (my Cardigan) also asks that you clarify so as not to besmirch the reputation of the BETTER of the corgi breeds. ;P

Cait October 12th, 2008 05:23:00 PM

What happened in that waiting room, exactly? Did the shi-corgi's owner have the dog on too long a leash, or a flexi, and not pay attention to where her dog was headed or what mood it was in? Or did it happen in a flash - the mother dog just waiting to have something to lunge at?

The reason that I ask is that it seems almost everyone who comes into a vets office has dogs that are just barely under control, often on leashes that are too long, and they don't pay enough attention to who or what their dog is staring down/lunding towards/cowering from. I wish all vets had policies clearly stated on large signs in the entry way that include:

1)All dogs on short leashes 6 ft or less (no flexis),
2) No 'visiting' between dogs (So many times when I go into a vets office, another owner asks if their insane, barking, lunging dog can 'say hi' to my dog. Um....no.
3) Pay attention to your dog at all times

It would also help if receptionists were ready and willing to reinforce the stated rules if owners aren't abiding by them (of course the receptionists would need mucho backing from the vets).

I am so afraid of my dog being a victim of another dog's aggression/ another owner's inattention like that poor poodle was! And think about how that poodle's going to feel about going to the vets in the future.

FarmFashion October 12th, 2008 05:25:00 PM

There is so much missing from this story it is hard to tell who is at fault. However, seems to me that it would be your hospital's responsibility to take care of the injured dog if it occurs on your premises. And if you are salaried...you didn't actually do it for free. And it is what liability insurance is for.

Incidents like these occur. Price of doing business. Make separate cubicles for clients/pets if this is a reoccurring problem....
if the dog was on a leash who knows what actually started it.
I hate to be critical, and I know you like to write for vet economics.so your focus is economic ...but you seems a little overly obsessed with money these days. I wonder if you are missing out (not this incident) on some wonder parts of your job because of the money thing.

LorriM October 12th, 2008 05:56:00 PM

I guess I look at things a little differently. If my dog is under MY care and control regardless of where we are and for some reason my dog were to injure another dog I would see it as my responsibility to pay up. Now if my dog was at the vets and he was under the vets care and control because I was not present I can see it being the vets responsibilty to look after the injuries..
Unfortunately people don't pay attention to their dogs and it seems especially so at the vets office. They come in with their 20 ft leashes or none and all of a sudden I have a another dog in my dogs face and my dog is sitting at my side. I can't just pick him up and carry him away he is too heavy to carry. I am a frequent flyer at the vets and unfortunately I see this almost everytime I am there. Especially with the smaller dogs whom my big guy is afraid of. Why would any rational person let their dog just wander around visiting other dogs expecially in place like a vets office where most of the dogs are already stressed.

Elizabeth - from Nova Scotia October 12th, 2008 07:15:00 PM

I am going to have to step in here and state to Lorri, that as a practice owner, there is no such thing as salaried. In this situation the practice covers the cost of taking care of the poodle, there would not be any liability insurance involved, unless the poodle owner sued the practice. Cost means the supplies; anesthesia, pain meds prior to surgery and after, the induction agent; propolfol probably IV catheter, a bag of fluids, primary IV line, extension line and a t-port, suture material, drains, vet wrap, conforming gauze and cast padding if a bandage in required, antibiotics, pain and anti-inflammatory meds to go home, and then her time, and at least one vet techs time to do the surgery plus follow-ups, all to take care of the problems with the poodle. All of those things cost someone, ie; the owner of the practice, money and since the owner of the poodle nor the owner of the corgi are paying anything, it's therefore free services.

Now, as a corgi owner ( I have 5 of the little buggers that are my own and foster them quite frequently for corgi rescue) I am saddened that situations like this arise that make the breed look bad. But, it's a combination of poor breeding and even poorer socialization and training that result in corgis with this type of temperament. Unfortunately, this is why so many end up in rescue, as they require a firm hand, a lot of exercise and a "job" and most people get them thinking they will be sweet little lap dogs, and while some may be, most won't. Then to add them to the ever growing list of designer mutts makes it even worse, as most breed specific rescues have enough purebred dogs to worry about, they have little space to take it corgi mixes. Some at times do, but they don't have the resources to take care of an influx of designer mutts that will be getting dumped in shelters as a result of someone thinking a Shicorgi is the next great dog breed. I guarantee it won't be. There may be less hair, but it will still be a high maintenance dog that most people aren't equipped to handle.

Kim October 12th, 2008 09:00:00 PM

this is sort of off-topic, but any time an 'unconventional' mixed breed is mentioned on here I have to google it. It took a couple variations of 'Shi-corgi' before I found pics. What a hideous mix.

it seems to me that mixing any of the short-legged, long-bodied breeds is asking for it. i don't know if corgis are like Munchkin cats, but if they are, is cross-breeding a dog with such an exaggerated mutation like short legs really very healthful? granted, I'm sure this breeder isn't breeding for health.

i know that most purebred dogs are based on mutations, it just seems like the short legs might cause some issues if carelessly crossed with other breeds. I've seen a lot of shih tzus with extreme bowing in their front legs, or the bottom 'wrist' joint (whatever you call it) turned out to an extreme angle. doesn't seem like it would result in healthy legs in puppies.

charity October 12th, 2008 09:48:00 PM

Last year at my dogs' annual, I had a similar situation happen to me and my dogs; luckily neither of my girls was hurt; I took the brunt of the attack. Let me say, I HATE Flexi's, only because most people don't use them appropriately. On a leisurely stroll in the park, maybe, but never, never, NEVER in a vet's office where the dogs are sick, injured, and/or stressed.

I had my two placid Labs in for vaccines/HW test and exams. Both on 2-foot leads (my preference when I have both dogs with me--I feel it gives me better control to keep two 85-pound dogs close to me). Both were sitting quietly, if a little anxious as always at the vet's. In comes a young woman with (or should I say dragged by) a large dog; my guess would be an Akita/Chow mix bitch, on-- you guessed it--a Flexi. Said bitch (who has bandages across her chest and one leg)makes a beeline for where we were sitting (in the far corner of the room from the door); my dogs seated at either side of my chair. Clueless owner has the Flexi at about 8-9 feet, and says "Aw, Sheba wants to say hi". BTW, I don't permit my dogs to "visit" in the vet's waiting room--too many unpredictable factors with sick/injured/stressed animals. Now this animal is approaching mine stiff-legged, with tail and hackles up, and showing teeth. I asked the woman to please control her dog, and a split-second later the dog lunged toward one of mine. I stood, and turned to my dogs to try to prevent them from making eye contact, hoping to defuse the situation, but too late; there was bloodshed--mine. I ended up with a 3" gash and several punctures of me left calf. The vet and tech cleaned and bandaged me up; and once I went home, I ended up in the ER (where I work) for irrigation, loose suturing of the laceration, and a dose of IV antibiotics, as well as losing 2 days' work. As it turns out, the attacking dog was there for a dressing change for her injuries suffered during a fight with a neighbor's dog. My personal opinion is that aggressive dogs should not be in a waiting room with other animals; they should wait outside, or be placed in a separate area. And they are NOT candidates for Flexi leads!!

Shellie October 13th, 2008 01:00:00 AM

Shellie,

I hate flexi leads for those reasons, as well as, one time many years ago, I had one of my foster dogs on one in my front yard, and he ran it around the back of my leg, and it made the worst rope burn I have ever had. I have known someone that lost the end of a finger getting caught up in one too. I wish they would get banned as being too dangerous.

I hate them.

Kim October 13th, 2008 01:08:00 AM

What is wrong with people?!

I had a thankfully non-bloody encounter at the vet's office just last week. I was paying my bill, with my dog on a short leash, sitting right at my feet. A guy walked past, with his dog on a fully extended, loose leash. His dog stopped and sniffed mine, and my dog snarked at her. Well, duh. She wasn't feeling well and doesn't like rude space invaders at the best of times. I ended up apologizing for my cranky dog, even though it was the other guy's fault for being oblivious. His response? "That's okay, my dog is cranky, too." Well why on earth did you let her approach my dog, then?

I really wish people and their dogs would leave my dog alone when we're at the vet. It's not a dog park, and there's no need to socialize. And if you have a dog who is (or might be) aggressive toward people or animals, it's your JOB to keep her under control. Lordy!

Shelly October 13th, 2008 07:14:00 AM

LorriM: 1) Actually, I'm not a salaried employee. I did effectively "lose" almost three hours of my time. 2) Liability insurance premiums are high already. Why should the practice *always* pay just because we carry insurance? 3) "Shared responsibility" is a common outcome in these cases because judges and juries don't believe that common sense and personal responsibility should go out the window just because you cross over someone's property line.

And, yes, there was an inappropriately employed Flexi leash ensuring that the Corgi could run across the room, lunge and attack a dog that was nowhere near her. And I reiterate: She had no business being there. She was not a patient. I keep no record of her in my files. Legally, a judge might find that the hospital is at zero fault given her "interloper" status.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 13th, 2008 08:23:00 AM

I can't imagine taking an animal to a vet's office when the animal is not a patient there! That takes a certain amount of nerve.

I also don't think it is at *all* inappropriate to have a large sign clearly stating "No Retractable Leashes!" Every vet office I've ever been in has signs stating that animals must be contained or on leashes, so why not go one further? Not that such signs stop people from being idiots, of course, but maybe bringing the leash impaired owner a kennel lead would make them think twice next time?

Shelly October 13th, 2008 09:07:00 AM

Yes, yes, YES! Dr. Patty, start a trend in vet hospitals that retractable leashes are BANNED! I have nothing good to say about them -- either use a regular leash or take the time to train your dog to walk with you off-leash.

Getting rid of retractable leashes in the vet office would go a long way to making it a calmer experience for all of us - and looks like it would save vet practices money, too.

My vet has a bunch of "temporary leashes" that are a short plastic cord with a loop/metal ring to make a temporary collar. Supposedly, they are very cheap -- maybe the receiptionists could require those with retractiable leashes to use the instead -- it would get the message out there and be cheaper in the long run than emergency surgeries.

Dorene October 13th, 2008 09:50:00 AM

While I, too, wish Flexis would be banned, they won't be - and there will never be a way to make people stop using them. You can put up all the signs you want, but unless you don't care about losing clients by being so strict (potentially giving the owners a reason to not go to a vet at all), people will not follow rules for all sorts of reasons. "Oh my dog (or cat) will be fine" has gotten to be such a common statement .... along with "I couldn't find the leash." People who say things like this .... well, I'm just amazed more problems don't happen.
And Lorri, it would be good if you didn't expect Dr. K. to only talk about cute things - it's very important to let people know what kind or things happen at vet's offices - both good and bad, and in between. To expect her not to mention a business problem, like the loss of time and money, because of a stupid owner's actions, makes it seem that you think she should be a non-profit or something. And even then, the loss of time and money is a significant part of the incident, whether it happened at a for-profit or a non-profit.

Kate October 13th, 2008 10:35:00 AM

It is amazing sometimes to see the difference between owners when it comes to responsible behavior at the vet's.

Yesterday I was at the vet to pick up some renal food for my cat, and there where both types there:
A women with a dog that doesn't like the vet's who asked if she could wait outside in the clinic's grassy yard (no problem), and when her time to enter came, she muzzled her dog outside and came in with him already muzzled.

On the other hand there was this lady with a hyper dalmatian on a Flexi, who let the dog roam free (even after the staff asked her to please control her dog), and let her dog growl at a sweet golden who was sitting queitly next to it's owner while the owner was paying the bill.

Lucky for everyone, while the day was busy, the appointments where set in such a way that there wheren't many dogs in the waiting room.

Xslf October 13th, 2008 11:39:00 AM

Just an FYI, there are those of us than can use a Flexi responsibly. We're not all idiots about leash etiquette. I have three dogs that I use Flexi leashes on due to an issue with my hand that makes it difficult to hang onto a traditional leash without pain. I lock them and use the hand loop whenever I am at the vet or any other situation involving unknown dogs or places. I never let them run out the lead when we use them to go for walks in the neighborhood. I also only handle one dog at a time. My husband takes the other two since he has two good hands. I'm not saying that everyone does this, but there are some people who can be responsible pet owners AND use Flexi leashes.

DavesAnngel October 13th, 2008 11:39:00 AM

I don't disagree with you about the Corgi owners culpability, but I am curious about one thing. You said

"Liability insurance premiums are high already"

How high, exactly?

Last I heard, it's running about $300 for a $1 million.

I heard testimony last year from a vet that his practice pays about $500 for theirs (he couldn't remember whether it was a 1 mill policy or a 3 mill policy) but in any case, it is nothing compared to human drs. mal insurance.

Stefani October 13th, 2008 01:15:00 PM

Stefani, I think an issue on insurance is being confused here. One would be the individual licensed veterinarian for "malpractice insurance", which this case does not indicate and another would be "business liability insurance" on the part of the owner of the clinic or "practice" that would cover accidents, negligence, etc.

two different things entirely-----such as stores having insurance if there is a slip/fall

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 13th, 2008 02:27:00 PM

Thank you for standing up for darn Flexi leads DavesAnngel...or at least those of us that use them responsibly.
I attach mine to my dog's harness only for walks where it is appropriate, certainly not the vet, however. My miniature pinscher is something of a maniac in new situations, but I would find a flexi to be as inappropriate as other long leads that people use in place of the flexis, although anything is IMO better than letting your dog go without a leash no matter how well trained you think they are...with some exceptions obviously, hiking, leash optional parks and beaches etc.

Esmee October 13th, 2008 02:56:00 PM

Flexi leads are good in the right hands and in the right situation. I would rather my little dog on a flexi lead than off lead and under a truck. Without going into details, it works for us. But I would never use one at the vets - I clip on a normal lead there. Even though my dog is well behaved, and would only attack another dog if sufficiently provoked, its the other guy you have to watch for.

I would soon give up if I started to count the number of dogs I have seen that are not under control, and not just at the vets - joggers and walkers with dogs off lead who ignore the owner completely when called. Don't have a dog off lead if you cannot control it.

Dogs need to be trained, and trained in all situations, so they are reliable. Its common courtesy for the sake of vets and the public.

And don't get me started on people who let their dogs roam free all over town, all day and night.

Robin October 13th, 2008 06:47:00 PM

I hoep when the poodle owner comes in for follow-up you recommend she consider some additional training to make sure that her dog doesn't suffer any behavior issues as a result of or exacerbated by the attack. Ugh!

Jules October 14th, 2008 09:19:00 AM

Jules: We've taken to offering her treats in the lobby where she was attacked--she seems OK about it as she's a pretty easygoing dog. It also helps that her follow-up visits are painless bandage changes at this point. Thanks for thinking of her.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 14th, 2008 09:27:00 AM

That's excellent! I am not surprised you are doing such a good job! The last thing you need is a dog afraid to visit your office. Poor thing.

Jules October 14th, 2008 09:34:00 AM

This is all so horrifying! What a stressful nightmare for you Dr. Patty.

Luckily I have a small dog and keep her on my lap, I'd be a wreck if I had a big dog that I could not pick up to protect. I fully support the Flexi ban at the Vet's. People using flexis tend to space out and let their dogs run everywhere. It drives me nuts.

Creature of Habit October 14th, 2008 12:44:00 PM

Some of these comments were running wild in my head today when an aggressive, hard-to-control 140-pound Rottweiler walked in the door. Instead of making sure she held her pooch tightly to her chest, the client at the counter took this opportunity to put her dog on the floor so she could write a check.

All three of us behind the front desk screamed "Nooooooo!"

The formerly nonplussed owner got a good scare but it was worth it. (I mean, I don't need her check THAT badly.) The tiny one got out unscathed. Too bad I can't say the same for my nerves.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 14th, 2008 05:48:00 PM

As someone who has shielded my sweet, retiring 8 year old golden retriever from the snappy jaws of more than one undersocialized, overbred dog in the vet's waiting room, I have to agree with most of what's been said. If an unrestrained (and I consider a flexi-lead in a waiting room to be unrestrained) dog does damage to another dog, as in the case of this "designer" disaster, it is the attacking dog owner's sole responsibility to take care of said damage. If my dog attacked another dog, I would cover it, and be EXTREMELY grateful if that's all I had to do. Personal responsibility is far too rare these days. And especially personal responsibility for what we create...

My dog is well mannered and does not go to say "hi" to another person's dog. If she is invited to say "hi" by someone who is waiting, sans dog, she is happy - more than happy - to do so.

Diana Phillips October 14th, 2008 06:19:00 PM

Yikes! That's the one time I don't have control & attention---writing out the check! (I usually have all but the amount pre-written) and tense was the feeling when taking an elderly, muscle-wasted, stroke- weakened terrier, that somehow still had courage, stout heart, determination, and stubborness to curiously explore what she couldn't see from afar---including dogs with heads as big as her body! Yes, it gave me a bit of pride, but hazardous nonetheless.

I could be wrong, but the poodle may not associate the attack with the clinic, and I've found that although dogs don't forget, they are very forgiving. A good owner and good-natured dog will overcome this, I bet

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 14th, 2008 06:25:00 PM

This is a little off topic, but it still fits in the theme of unrestrained dogs causing trouble. Out of curiosity, who is at fault if there is an altercation when you are walking a dog (on a leash) and an unleashed dog comes runs out of its yard to provoke yours? In this scenario, the altercation occurs in front of the unleashed dog's house in full view of its owner. My parents' neighbors have a bad habit of letting their dogs run free, and I avoid walking my parents' dogs down certain streets to avoid trouble.

Lily October 14th, 2008 10:48:00 PM

On the floor!!!!!!

The best thing about the little ones at the Vet is you can set them on the counter (or, let the techs snuggle them one more time).....on the floor? *shudders*

Creature of Habit October 15th, 2008 08:33:00 AM

Springer cross cocker? Sprocker. Lab cross poodle? Labradoodle. Poodle cross Shih Tzu? Sh!t Poo.
:)

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