I don't fear the raw. I don't feed it right now for convenience issues, but I don't fear it. I think the biggest problem is that people that start doing it think they can use the cheapest, crappiest cuts. These also tend to be the boniest, and that's where you start having issues. You cannot feed chicken wings and necks exclusively. The bones need to be *meaty*. When is the last time you saw a wing with lots of meat? I loved the small amounts of stool and how clean their teeth were when I fed raw. I need to offer it occasionally again.

Heifzilla October 17th, 2008 09:31:00 AM

Dr. Patty, thanks for this post. As time goes on, I find people are more open about what I feed my dogs than they used to (as in, the percentage of terrified looks and accusations of me "killing my dogs", or "they will be bloodthirsty" and all that other fear-based total ridiculousness has dropped).

I wanted to add an additional meat source - I'm a member of a Raw Co-op in my area, where we order items in bulk and save money, and also support LOCAL farms who raise humane, grass-fed animals. A lot of people that approach me about the diet think that I must be spending hundreds of dollars a month to feed a 45lb dog and an 85lb dog, but not the case... if I had to purchase everything at the grocery store it would be more cost-prohibitive, but through the co-op I spend on average about $40/month for the two of them.

When I was feeding kibble I spent about the same, but I was also endlessly trying to clean tartar off their teeth, clean out my Collie/St Bernard's goopy, yeasty, smelly ears twice a week (ick), so on and so forth. Since I introduced the raw his ears are stupendous, don't hurt him, are odor-free, and totally clean. In his case I attribute it to the absence of grain. The only teeth that now get any build-up are the 2 front canines because they don't really use those to chew, just to tear. They also went down to 1 bowel movement a day, and the movement itself is exponentially smaller than it used to be. I get compliments on stool size (lol, yeah I know...), coat condition, ear condition... it was definitely a step in the right direction for us, even though I completely understand it's just not for everyone.

I also agree on the behavioral aspect. Obviously eating a raw meal is not going to replace a 2 mile walk or a good training session, but there ARE merits to the dog having to think about how to best approach his meal, and flex his jaw muscles, both of which unfortunately aren't present when consuming a dry kibble which is already in "inhalation-size" chunks. :)

You didn't really specify cuts other than the chicken necks, so I wanted to just point out that many raw feeders absolutely do not feed weight-baring bones from large animals, cows being the primary example. They're called "wreck bones" in the raw world for a reason. All of my dogs edible bone comes from chicken, turkey, and only 2 cuts of pork - hocks and necks... anything denser than that I don't give, not worth the risk to me. They still get their required red meat variety and organ requirements with lots of beef and pork, but I either feed those boneless or take away the bone once they've removed all the meat. Fish and eggs are also welcome additions.

When starting out the general rule of thumb is start bland to ease in and prevent stomach upset from throwing in too much too soon - and pretty much the blandest to go is chicken. Chicken leg quarters were our "starter" cut.

And the last thing I want to bring up is feeding location. Feeding outside is totally fine, but I'm in Buffalo NY so I don't really feel like tossing a hunk of beef liver out in the snow in January.... I trained my two to eat their boneless things out of their bowl, and boney items that they need to work on, I trained them to eat on a towel. This way my floors stay clean, and when they're done I just throw the towel in the wash. Just a thought, to show that feeding raw doesn't have to equate to messy. :)

Carissa October 17th, 2008 10:23:00 AM

I feed my dogs a high quality kibble along with a chicken wing. I buy the family pack of chicken wings at the grocery store. I also give them meaty raw bones as well as the knuckle bones. I've been doing this for 13 yrs. They all have beautiful coats and nice clean teeth, I've never cleaned their teeth. My 13 yr old collie mix has yellowish teeth but no tarter.

For me its a nice supplement to the diet. I can't even make meals for myself, I can't imagine trying to do it for the dogs.

Betsy October 17th, 2008 10:48:00 AM

In the mid 1990s I was part of an innovative clinic that taught how to feed raw canine and feline diets. We have a natural nutritionist as part of the team and I moved my dog over.

I find it amusing that people forget that the norm many years go (say 40ish or long) was to give dogs bones and scraps.

There are pros and cons to the many diet options but I find the commercial interests and convenience of packaged diets tend to have dominated the market for my generation.

Personally, I always gave my dog the big knuckle or femur bones on a rug or outside. He absolutely loved them and the activity did help his teeth and gums.

I come from a wild animal management and training background and there are specific ways you feed raw diets to keep the animals in optimal shape--moving this practice to domestic critters isn't much different...just takes ages to buck the system.

Diana L Guerrero (The Ark Lady) October 17th, 2008 11:37:00 AM

I make my dog's food as well....and would like to work RMBs into her diet. The one time I tried it she went INSANE with prosession issues (went totally savage when I tried to take the bone away from her - and then spent the rest of the day under the bed and would not come out - pouting perhaps?), so I am nervous about trying again. I would like it to be a very small bone that she can eat versus just "work on" (because then I'd have to take it away again - yikes).

Any recommendations for a tiny dog? (8# Chihuahua). Chicken neck? Chicken wing? Half a chicken wing?

I live in a loft in the city, so outside space won't work. I am going to try the towel thing Carissa. She's pretty good about "stay", though I wonder if she will try to hide with the bone this time! Lol...

Creature of Habit October 17th, 2008 12:04:00 PM

What about chicken necks for cats? is that safe?

How about steak bones?

Stefani October 17th, 2008 01:00:00 PM

The behavioural element seems to make sense-it's been well known for years that giving your herbivore pet (rabbit, horse..) food in a form which let them take a while to eat it (rather than pellets, which are wolfed down in 5 mins) meant they were less bored and therefore less destructive, why not carnivores too?

Sian October 17th, 2008 01:13:00 PM

Sian: Yeah, I think hay would really bore my goats. They have so much fun vying with each other for the best branches then stealing the best leaves from each other. Goats are so civil compared to dogs and cats.

Stefani: I would ask a raw food cat feeder. I do know some people feed their cats whole rodents so why not chicken necks? On the advisability of the former, however, I could not properly comment. A chicken neck seems like a no-brainer, though.It's so soft and most of the ones that come inside a whole, prepared bird are truly small (they don't seem to cut 'em like they used to).

Dr. Patty Khuly October 17th, 2008 03:22:00 PM

Oh, steak bones: probably not if they're sharp and may splinter. I just wouldn't risk it. But a nice small hock to gnaw on? Messy, but otherwise why not?

Dr. Patty Khuly October 17th, 2008 03:24:00 PM

I have been feeding raw for over 10 years (well I do occasionally feed a kibble meal, for variety *OR* because I forgot to thaw something LOL) and I think that for a carnivore, there is almost nothing as psychologically satisfying as settling down to chew on on a nice meaty meal.

And with 4 Great Danes and a little Shih Tzu cross, and now a cat to feed I've found that if you're willing to do a little searching, it can be quite affordable. Not as "affordable" as Ol' Roy from WalMart, but about the same as a super premium kibble. And my pets have had WAY fewer health problems since I've been doing this - and the ones with pre-existing problems have fared much better and lived longer than they were ever expected to.

But you do have to use some common sense - dogs CAN break their teeth on hard bones, they CAN choke on even meaty bones if they're too small and the dogs try to swallow them whole, and of course pets CAN develop health problems and nutritional deficiencies if you don't make an effort to give them a wide variety of whole foods.

You have to do some research but IMO the benefits are sooooooooooo worth it!

Barb October 17th, 2008 06:14:00 PM

Oh, and to the vets reading this blog... chances are that you have a LOT more clients who feed raw than you know. Whenever you are examining an adult animal who looks great and has lovely teeth, chances are good that the owner feeds a raw and/or homemade diet at least part of the time. If the owner gets a vibe that you don't approve of homemade diets they just may not tell you in order to avoid an argument.

Barb October 17th, 2008 06:28:00 PM

I've been feeding my dogs raw for a couple of years. But I've had problems. My coming-up-to 3 year old Aust. Cattle Dog is what is known as a "gulper" - that is when he eats a bone (say a lamb neck chop) it is a matter of crunch, crack, gulp, gulp - GONE! And then come the alarming shards of shattered bone in his poop - sharp enough to cut through plastic bags when picking the stuff up! He has also had an impaction caused by a combination of his own hair (!) and shards of bone. We haven't had any tooth damage although he doesn't get any dental benefit from the way he eats bones either.

So I've kinda chickened out on the bone thing and now I'm afraid he just gets the bone component of his diet in the form of bone sawdust from the butcher. Currently he is getting a lot of big hunks of tough, raw beef heart and this is slowing his eating down a bit. At some point I will try the recommended frozen beef ribs or something similar to try to get him to get the hang of chewing in a more leisurely manner.

He was raised (first 4 1/2 months) on kibble and, I think, canned a diet which is said to encourage gulping although I suspect a dog has to have an innate tendency to be a gulper to become like this. I must say his approach to eating is pretty consistent to his approach to life generally - full on and flat out until he learns otherwise!!

So at the moment he gets lean meat (in the biggest chewiest hunks I can get hold of), some kidney and/or liver several times a week, fish oil added and some vegies mixed with bone sawdust - you definitely don't want lumps of bone sawdust going straight down (and through) without something mixed into it. He also gets lean cooked table scraps at times, and the occasional egg and occasional yogurt added. I clean his teeth daily with a toothbrush.

I must say that dogs' teeth seem to be inordinately strong to fit with their immense jaw strength - I've known the aforementioned dog to casually bite through 8 layers of shade cloth with one easy chomp!! (Fortunately he did have enough sense not to actually ingest the shade cloth - I'm grateful for small mercies!)

Alison October 17th, 2008 08:02:00 PM

Haven't done a dental in over five years, feeding RMBs 3-7 times a week -- that's 7 total dogs of my own in that time (two of them geriatrics when I started) a parade of fosters, here for weeks or months, and the eight pups from the last litter.

About six months after I started feeding raw, I stopped brushing teeth, because there was nothing to brush away.

In addition to the bones already mentioned, I like to feed a lot of pig's feet, sheep and goat feet and hocks. There's a LOT of tough, abrasive cartilage and ligaments in feet. Takes the dogs ages to finish one.

A great way to encourage gnawing as opposed to tearing/gulping is to feed largish pieces frozen. For my medium to large dogs, a frozen turkey neck is a great meal; little dogs would do well with chicken necks

For especially messy meals, picky dogs that take a long time, puppies, fosters without manners or Cujo ambitions, I feed RMBs in a crate. I have one youngster who likes to bury her meals in the yard; she may be fed her RMBs in a crate forever.

H Houlahan October 17th, 2008 08:54:00 PM

CREATURE OF HABIT- i will try to get this across in print as best I can... I mean this in the nicest way....
I don't think the problem with your pup is the RMB--- could it be how she is about other things also?
My guys a pitbull and a standard poodle, learned from day one to relinquish to me on command. From the time they started eating at my house, they were conditioned to have hands in their feedbowls, hands on them, taking kibble from mouths, taking bones or raw meat or toys from them. It is just what is expected of them. Agadore has never been hungry...he's been lucky from day one. But Beaner, he came from an abusive situation and was totally emaciated.... but still he respects me and doesn't guard his food....

Possibly has your chihuahua been bullied by bigger dogs and has had a need to guard toys and food?

I haven't heard of dogs doing raw who were food aggressive just because of it being raw...

Anyone else?

BTW I go back and forth from raw to Innova EVO.... the boys are healthy and allergy free. And the lab I'm fostering for Guardian Angels for Soldiers Pet came to me constantly itching to the point she would exhaust herself. 3 weeks on Innova and off corn and her itchies vanished....

agadoresmama October 17th, 2008 09:38:00 PM

I agree with agadoresmama... RMBs alone won't cause severe food aggression/resource guarding behavior, although if those problems are already present they may worsen in the presence of a really valuable "resource". With my own dogs I have observed that they REALLY REALLY love their RMBs, and may guard them from each other a little more jealously than they will other things. So I make sure that they're well separated and that the ones who finish first don't bug the others. But I can still take anything away from any of them, anytime.

Creature of Habit, I'd recommend teaching your little dog to surrender her food and toys to you - one good way to do this is to teach her that she'll get something good in return, some tasty little treat. Take it slow and don't get bitten. If needed consult a trainer in your area who can show you what to do. And put a leash on her so she can't run under the bed and hide! Well, she still can but if she's got a leash on you can get her out without having to reach in toward her.

As for what to give her that she can eat, a little dog can definitely eat a chicken neck BUT she can also try to swallow it whole - if she's afraid that someone may "steal" it from her she'll be more likely to try to gulp it. Try pounding the chicken neck flat with a meat tenderizer mallet. A plain ol' hammer will do the trick, too. You'll leave it all in one piece, just crush it flat and that will tend to encourage her to tear it apart rather than just swallowing it whole. A chicken wing is fine too - just remember that necks and wings aren't really meaty, so you'll have to feed her a little meat and maybe some veggies at the same time or she may get constipated (or worse, a blockage).

As for amounts, the basic rule of thumb for sedentary adult dogs is to feed them about 2% of their body weight each day. For a 50 lb. dog, that's one pound of raw food a day. For a 10 lb. dog, that's a little over 3 ounces of food a day.

Again, use common sense with amounts... if your dog is very active, or starts to lose weight on the above amounts, feed a little more. Growing puppies need more like 3% to 5% of their weight each day.

Barb October 17th, 2008 10:41:00 PM

Creature---don't feel bad, I too have the same problem. I can take everyone's bowl w/ kibble or a toy away, but not a "real bone". Maybe because I have a group? And when I was giving bones, it was a huge production taking them away without mayhem of the others thinking there was one somewhere with one of them! And one of the dogs became an insane nut, when unloading meat from the grocery bags.

I stopped, especially since the Scotties are determined to bite & chew, have worn down teeth and some folks I know have Scots with "cracked" teeth from vigorous chew/eating.

But, I have to try something again--I have 3 elderlys that could benefit from chews, and rawhides and fake bones just don't interest them. I'll try the pounded chicken necks----and maybe graduate from there.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 17th, 2008 11:08:00 PM

My two - who get on really, really well in all other ways have to be fed *anything* other than tiny pieces of food that I sprinkle on the ground, separately in crates. They will both guard their food and defend it fiercely and would likely fight to the death over any substantial food item. One weighs over 50lb and the other only 9lb so I know who's death it would be! Yes, there *is* a history to this pattern of behavior (won't go into the details here) but there is nothing I can practically do about it now and using crates is just so much easier anyway. RMB probably bring out the worst in them but only because such items are much treasured and (at least for the little one) take a while to eat. It's easy to see where the expression "bone of contention" came from.

Strangely enough *I* can walk up to either dog and remove a RMB with no problems at all. If I do have to do that for any reason I do have to make 100% sure that whoever lost their bone knows that it was me not the other dog who is responsible for the bone going missing though. With my guys this resource-guarding aggression is only directed at other dogs. My little dog has even been known to voluntarily bring bones to me for safekeeping so another dog can't get them!

Alison October 18th, 2008 01:48:00 AM

Thanks so much sharing your thoughts, Dr. Khuly. I'm a raw feeder and a vet student (Oh, the HORROR!). My entire first year of school I didn't even tell anyone. Now that I'm a little more comfortable there I've started to talk about it more - especially because people are always asking me why I don't scrounge up the free food that's offered to all the students since I have four enormous dogs. Now that we're doing parasitology I get even more guff from my fellow classmates. But I have to say, I've been pleasantly surprised by the reaction of the few faculty I've had reason to speak to, including the surgeons who performed a gastropexy on one of my dogs recently.

Raw feeding isn't a fad that's going to go away. Vets really need to at least try and be open to this way of feeding or risk losing clients, or as mentioned in a previous comment they risk their clients withholding important information that might be necessary for diagnosis or rule-outs. Unfortunately they don't teach tolerance or 'open-mindedness' in vet school...

Ingrid October 18th, 2008 06:17:00 AM

Thanks for posting this! And Ingrid, you rock- it is hard to find a vet who isn't really negative about feeding raw bones. My vet was sick the last time my two collies had to go in and so we got a very young new vet. When she looked at their teeth, she told me they were very cleana nd white, and asked if I fed raw bones. When I told her I did, I got an earful! She told me that there is "plenty of evidence in science journals" to prove that I am doing the wrong thing for my dogs. She told me that there are many dogs killed each year from diseases found in raw food, that dogs break their teeth, that my dogs won't have any teeth left by the time they are ten, and that she wasn't even going to discuss it with me because she was sure I would just ignore all of her information which she learnt in vet school.

I was just stunned- she was bossy and argumentative and had a really bad attitude- I won't be seeing her again. However, it will make me less likely to tell any other vet the truth about how I feed my gorgeous and healthy girls. I was in tears as I left that visit. My own vet feeds a combination of raw bones and good quality kibble, and so do I. I just don't get that nonsense about there being "proof" that raw diets are harmful- but I do get that being judged is not the way to get accurate info about a new patient.

Cindy October 18th, 2008 12:04:00 PM

I feed raw....meat I have ground myself....no store bought ground meat. and I do blanch the chicken.
the cats and dogs both look healthier, act healthier..have perhaps a little too much energy.

I do also leave down dry for the cats since some of my old cats will only eat dry...and I feed mice regularly.

I have been hesitant to feed bones to the dogs because they are dachshunds and little, but my previous dog was an english springer and not only did he get raw, and home diet, but tons of bones. He never had to have a dental and he lived to be 15.

I am interested in reading what bones people let the littler dogs and cats have. I will try chicken necks....

LorriM October 18th, 2008 05:40:00 PM

I think it's actually easier to choose suitable bones for little dogs than for larger dogs. A little dog can gnaw away at a bone that is as big as it is with no risk and considerable benefit when it comes to cleaning the teeth. It's the larger dogs, with the more powerful jaws and the capacity to get those jaws right around the bone, that *could* break a tooth or gulp down dangerously large chunks of bone. Now if I could only find some dinosaur rib bones for my medium/large "gulper" I'd be really happy...... I know, frozen mammoth bones - that's what we need!

Alison October 18th, 2008 07:20:00 PM

Re:

"She told me that there are many dogs killed each year from diseases found in raw food"

Funny Cindy, I got a similar reaction from a vet once when I brought up the raw topic -- she told me she just got back from some CDC conference, where they heard big scary things, and she nearly threatened to dump me as a client if I fed raw. OK, not quite, but she basically said she couldn't/wouldn't support it and would not be involved or something to that effect. I wonder if someone with an agenda is scaring the heck out of vets at these conferences with inflated or overemphasized stats on pets getting sick from raw?

I've many times ordered Felines Pride for my other cats (prepared raw -- http://www.felinespride.com) and also Nature's Variety Raw medallions are a regular staple here. I've never had obvious issues. The Felines Pride is supposed to be tested salmonella free. Our current vet (a different one) has been informed about the Natures Variety Raw Medallions and she did not object.

I even went through a brief "homemade" period (although I was parboiling the meat), but it's a bit much work to keep up regularly. I've not done the bones/necks for dental health yet, but Dr. Khuly's posts seem encouraging on that score.

Stefani October 19th, 2008 01:39:00 AM

I have no problem with anyone feeding a raw or cooked diet as long as it's well balanced and the person has done some research on it. Whatever works best for you and your pet should be the diet you feed.

I do have a problem with raw-feeders who insist that feeing raw will cure all of your pet's problems. I also have a problem with people who throw down some ground hamburger and a chicken wing and assume their pet will thrive on it. Some will, some won't, and some really need the proper levels of calcium and protein that a *well-planned* diet will provide.

My own dog has severe skin and ear issues. When I adopted him I tried to feed him raw, both the frozen "chubs" of ground meat and bone, and actual chicken wings and RMBs. He refused to eat for five days and started vomiting bile. I put him on grain-free kibble and he's doing OK. I was made to feel like a failure by the raw-feeders I contacted, as "if you just wait him out he will eat it, don't give in to him." It was not the best choice for either of us but that does not mean that I am poisoning him with kibble any more than a raw feeder is developing blood-lust in their dog by feeding turkey necks.

FYI my dog's teeth are pretty good and he has had only one major dental cleaning since I adopted him.

Yersinia Pestis October 19th, 2008 10:01:00 AM

Yersinia, I hate when either side insists that theirs is the only correct way to feed. I don't think that zealots of any persuasion are particularly fun to be around. It sounds like you are doing a great job with your dog, and you should be proud of how well he is doing- what a great dog mom you are!

Cindy October 19th, 2008 10:57:00 AM

"Funny Cindy, I got a similar reaction from a vet once when I brought up the raw topic -- she told me she just got back from some CDC conference, where they heard big scary things, and she nearly threatened to dump me as a client if I fed raw."

I'm betting the conference had a speaker like the one discussed here:
http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/07/02/poop-...

Shannon Watts October 19th, 2008 11:03:00 AM

Just read the bit about the conference speaker (link in Shannon Watts' post above). I too wonder how a dish knows where the raw meat it contained is going to end up and therefore allows itself to be sanitized or not accordingly!

I bet rural vets are not as easily taken in by that sort of scare tactics and misinformation. We used to live on a farm and occasionally one of the working dogs would get into something really disgusting like a sheep or kangaroo that had been dead for a week in summer (oh joy!) and the worst that would happen (if anything) was a brief episode of self-limiting diarrhea probably more from the sudden "change of diet" than from anything like actual food poisoning. Obviously not what you would encourage but it does happen in the country and the dogs do survive and survive well. A really rigorous worming program is a must however in that sort of situation.

One of my dogs will eat cat poop (*sigh*) if he can ever get his jaws around a bit - that has to contain more nasty bacteria than anything I could dish up to him. Again that delightful little habit means that worming is very important and the filthy mutt has to understand that I just don't want his mouth anywhere near me for while thank you very much.

If dogs can survive and thrive despite their own revolting predilections surely they can handle fresh raw meat.

I'm off to autoclave my kitchen!

Alison October 19th, 2008 06:12:00 PM

Alison: Then there's the issue of varity to consider. Dogs who are exposed to a larger variety of cooked and uncooked foods do seem to have less of a problem with serious bouts of GI disease (or worse--pancreatitis) when exposed to things like the dead animal my Vincent got into last week. It's inevitable that our dogs will get into the nasties. Gradual exposure to a wider variety of foods can only be a good thing--if your dog can tolerate it, of course.

And I'm with Cindy--any sort of slavish adherence to any one diet based on principle is a bad thing. We've all go to take our individual pets' needs into account when making decisions and it's not fair to call anyone else out on their personal choices as long as the animal's best interests are truly considered.

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