Wow, that's a hard one. I understand rehabbing (formerly domestic) FIV and FeLV cats for adoption and an indoor-only home, but I had no idea that anyone was putting positive cats back out into the colonies. I don't know how rapidly these diseases spread: the incidence rate in many areas seems relatively low/stable (though I'm just looking up these stats on the 'net). If that's true, is that because of efforts like yours, or is it natural for only a small percentage of the population to be infected? And is that a percentage of each colony, or does the disease appear in concentrated pockets? I wouldn't feel ethically obliged to deny treatment to infected ferals if natural selection is doing its job (with or without humanitarian efforts like euthanasia OR treatment), so that the disease isn't going to get out of hand or destroy a whole colony. I tend to think of ferals as wild animals though, and I know that's not really accurate.

deidrel October 21st, 2008 09:34:00 AM

Our TNR policy doesn't inlcude testing unless the cat is symptomatic. If they are FeLV+ we've found that they will likely become symptomatic sooner than later so we lean towards euthanasia for them. But that's not the case with FIV+. Again, we don't test unless they're sypmptomatic or we trap a tame cat that we decide to put up for adoption. Our adoptables are all double-tested. If one turns up FIV+ we have found that it's actually unlikely they will become ill. These cats usally remain symptom free and live perfectly happy, healthy lives. Our shelter policy is that we don't mix FIV+ cats with negative cats but I know many people that have FIV+ cats with their general population and experience no problems.

Joy Smith October 21st, 2008 10:14:00 AM

Most of my FIV-positive patients start showing signs at five to seven years of age, though many do still live relatively typical lifespans. If they live in large multi-cat households (five-plus cats) or in colonies they tend to show signs sooner (stress? increased exposure to other infectious diseases?) and tend to succumb earlier. I don't know of any studies on this, however. All I have is my own anecdotal evidence.

I do have a problem with the fact that FeLV/FIV tests are not conducted on all these cats. Not to denigrate your personal choices, but to me it seems like many of my colony worker clients just don't want to know so they don't have to consider the ethical dilemma they'd face.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 21st, 2008 10:33:00 AM

I think that the sick ones should be euth'd. My opinion is that there are too many ferals out there and those that get sick with chronic issues should be put down. They have a crappy quality of life, and will just continue to get sick. Let's face it, feral life is hard, and those sick kitties get picked on and attacked much more than healthy ones. This is a good life?? Treat the ferals that can be cured, but don't keep treating the FIV/FeLv + that will just continue to infect the rest of the colonies. If that continues it will be a neverending battle and a complete waste of time and money because you're just treating the same cats over and over, and by doing that it also allows new ferals to be infected, which continues a vicious cycle that will never be broken. I know people want to, but we can't save them all.

Heifzilla October 21st, 2008 11:12:00 AM

This is an easy one for me. I'd put the cat to sleep. I've had a cat with FeLV and once he started declining there was no help for him. It was incredibly heartbreaking and he was in so much pain and had started losing control of his bladder. Those cats do not need to released to infect the others through a fight etc...Do trapped kittens get socialized and placed in homes?

ashleigh October 21st, 2008 11:36:00 AM

I don't find this to be hard to answer at all. I think the FIV/ FeLV should be euth. no questions asked. There are too many cat crazies out there that don't see the bigger picture. One you are preventing these poor animals from suffering a long agonizing death. Two these cats don't stop at infecting other feral cats, they get the domestic cats that were only out for a min. to enjoy the weather. It pains me to have to tell Little Suzy that Fluffy is sick and will ultimatly die from the sickness because Crazy Cat Lady wouldn't euth her sick cat and simply allowed it to free roam. They don't allow the poor horses with cogins to stay alive for a reason.
These are not people that know and understand what they are doing by spreading their sickness. We are aware of the impact they make on the population, we have a responsibility to do the best for our animals in keeping them safe.

Brittany October 21st, 2008 11:40:00 AM

How about testing all the healthy ones, too--just in case?

Dr. Patty Khuly October 21st, 2008 11:51:00 AM

We started our SNAP/TNR program in 2005 and have had over 1000 cats come through the program since then. I estimate about 50% of them are ferals that are either returned to the colony or placed in another colony. We based our protocols on experience from various "veteran" TNR experts in our area who have found that it was not cost-effective to test every cat; only those that are suspect when examined at the time of spay/neuter. The clinic we use is a non-profit spay/neuter clinic that has been operation for 15 years so I defer a lot of our policy-making decisons to their vast experience. Our average cost to spay/neuter and vaccinate is $40 including medical care when necessary (wound care, dentals, etc). The cost to combo-test is $25 so that would add more than 50% to our average cost thereby greating reducing the number of cats we can spay/neuter. We feel it more important to put our $$$ towards spay/neuter. We do euthanize any sick cats that are +.

We also factor in Alley Cat Allies positions when developing protocols. ACA does not advocate testing of all cats. The position statement is at http://www.alleycat.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid...

Great discussion!

Joy Smith October 21st, 2008 12:43:00 PM

Joy: Thanks for that info. What we need, perhaps, is a relationship with the SNAP test manufacturer so we can buy in bulk at low cost--or have them donated (my preference, of course). Have you tried that? Or has anyone you know?

Dr. Patty Khuly October 21st, 2008 01:16:00 PM

IDEXX does give lower cost pricing to non-profits but free would be great. That is definitely something we should look into.

Joy Smith October 21st, 2008 01:44:00 PM

I have to agree with euth too. Ferals and strays may be taken care of by volunteers, but they cannot get the same level of attention as a family pet - there are too many of them, not enough time, and their living conditions are a factor too - they are the mercy of the weather, other cats who want to fight, dogs, traffic, other stresses. Not to mention passing FIV onto other felines in the area.

Robin October 21st, 2008 06:36:00 PM

What do you do with a colony member that tests positive but is still clinically well?

Alison October 21st, 2008 08:09:00 PM

I'm 100% with you, Dr. Khuly. I think it's cruel to leave FIV/FeLV positive cats to their inevitable fate, especially if you're not in a position to provide thorough care. Leaving them be puts other cats at risk, and trying to manage their condition is a waste of valuable resources. And let's not forget - euthanasia rendered humanely is a wonderful way to go.

anna October 21st, 2008 10:45:00 PM

This is a tough debate, but I'm leaning towards your approach, Dr. Khuly. Positives can be super-sweet pets, but when they're feral, that's just not really an option. Is there a shelter in your area that might be able to take in some of the kitties on occasion and offer hospice care to them?

The reason I agree with you is that my first kitty was born FeLV positive. She had the disease because the mother cat (someone's pet) was allowed to roam around and breed with the feral population. The person who gave me the kitten continued to let the mama cat & another of the kittens run free outside after she found out that they were carriers of the disease. Then, she moved homes and left them roaming around her old home to continue breeding and spreading the disease.

Okay, my reasons for agreeing just became more of a rant than explanation; so, let me clarify. For as many responsible, well-intentioned rescue organizations as there are, there are just as many irresponsible owners who allow their pets to roam without proper care. The irresponsible individuals perpetuate the problem by adding to the population of breeding cats who can become carriers. If you remove the sick and carrier population, it reduces the incidence of the disease.

Posey October 21st, 2008 11:54:00 PM

If an FIV + is fixed and healthy, why euthanize?....there is a very low chance of spreading the disease if at all. My FIV cats lived for more than 12 healthy years.

FELV is different, both the disease and the transmission makes those cats a hazard to health ones.

as far as only sick cats going in traps?.....I've caught plenty of hungry health ones. The trick is both patience, the food you use and they do need to be hungry. The hard part can be getting feeders to not feed for a day so you can trap.

All cats that are trapped for s/n should be tested.

LorriM October 22nd, 2008 02:14:00 AM

while it is true that a lot of cats that dont get stressed
live quite well with their viruses cats in the wiled are always sterssed and have porr diets so any immune sytem disord

ers will expresss themselves quicky Aruond here i cant imagine not euthnising any postitve cats that arent going to try to be adopted

jim hall October 22nd, 2008 12:05:00 PM

Not a feral cat manager, and not interested in becoming one.

But I do own some combo barn/house cats. Neutered, vaccinated, socialized rodent control patrol. I like them. I want to keep them, and I want to keep them alive and healthy.

When the local ferals decided to come on over to my barn for their orgy/gang war, I was not pleased. I had to worry about a wild tom murdering my kittens. I had to worry about rabies (which the kittens were too young to have been vaccinated for) and all the other communicable diseases. I had to worry about whether they would turn and rip up the dog whose task it is to run them off.

Ferals are not a neutral presence in a community.

To maintain a colony of ferals that includes FIV/FELV positive animals and knowingly foster that disease vector into the owned cat population is the height of irresponsibility.

H Houlahan October 25th, 2008 09:27:00 AM

I think there's a big difference between FIV and FelV. Doesn't anyone else recognize this?! FIV males with no symptoms and otherwise healthy bloodwork, once altered, may stay close to home - ie, if a caretaker is very involved and they have a 'home base' with them. Some males, with this status, that I am familiar with, stay in their outdoor shelters, after being altered, and do not stray anymore. FelV, as far as everything I have known, experienced, and been told by vets, is a veritable death sentance. FIV still has so much prejudice and rumor, and I believe there is a long way to go with fully understanding this diagnosis. Too many cats, feral or otherwise, are put down because of this. We have to be very judicious- taking a life is no small matter.

alyce November 6th, 2008 10:44:00 PM

excuse me H Houhlahan - you speak of irresponsibility - are you going to spay/neuter your kittens?! why are you letting them breed?

alyce November 6th, 2008 10:48:00 PM

We do a case by case basis. For a closely managed colony (private property with a caretaker in residence), we only euthanize symptomatic and/or FeLV cats. We let the FIV+ ones remain until they become symptomatic. For our more traditional colonies (woodlands, behind businesses, neighborhoods where none of us live to more closely monitor, etc.) we euthanize all positives. We are not concerned with FIV transmission if TNR but we are concerned with missing early symptoms and the cat needlessly suffering and dying alone. FeLV are always euthanized if not handleable due to ease of transmission to other cats. If handleable then we move them to an indoor FeLV population for sanctuary if available. It is heartbreaking yes but it isn't about my heart, it is about what is best for the cat in the long run.

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