Vet Stress When pets die...who pays?

October 22nd, 2008  

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It is very kind of vets who offer to cover costs for things that go very wrong.

I know that the family of a human patient would not likely be extended the same compassion by the doctor/insurance company in those instances.

Hard as it may be, your post makes me think that in order for veterinarians *and their patients* to get the same amount of respect as their human counterparts, we should not expect vets to drop all charges in the face of unexpected circumstances.

I want to think this through more -- there are a lot of interesting questions raised.

Debby October 22nd, 2008 09:51:00 AM

Wow, that is a tough one. As a client, I would certainly expect to pay the vet even if my pet died while under his or her care. I've been fortunate enough to have a very good relationship with my vet, and even if one of my cats died during a routine procedure, I wouldn't blame her for it.

I know I take a risk if I choose not to do pre-anesthetic testing for a young, apparently healthy (no heart murmur, FIV/FeLV-negative, no major wounds, etc.) cat going in for a spay or neuter. Who can predict if an animal is going to have a bad reaction to a commonly used anesthetic? Who can predict that a 15-minute spay could turn into a 45-minute "hunt for all the pieces of the extremely friable uterus and try to tie it off without ripping the bit you're tying, and then make sure that among all those little shreds of flesh are the ovaries..." procedure.

An emergency, by nature, is usually a life-threatening occurrence (poisoning, seizures, heart failure, cat vs. car/dog vs. car, etc.). If my pet dies in that situation, I still expect to pay for the services. They're still paying the techs and vets, using drugs and equipment they purchased, etc., etc.

I wouldn't consider it adding insult to injury to be expected to pony up some cash, either. Vet clinics are still businesses, and they still need to cover their costs. If they can't cover their costs, they go out of business, and then you're S.O.L. because your awesome vet is no longer able to serve you since they have to go somewhere else to make a living.

That being said, it wouldn't break my heart if I were offered a discount.

JaneA October 22nd, 2008 09:52:00 AM

Yes, I agree. When the death is completely unexpected, as in a routine procedure - the vet should cover the cost. Anything else, such as those procedures where the risk is more likely..then no, patient pays. BUT, not if the vet talked them into the procedure...

Thereasa October 22nd, 2008 10:03:00 AM

One must assume that death is always a complication of general anesthesia and inform the client thus. Hence the term "informed consent." No, it is not expected, but it is a possibility and unfortunately it can happen and we always have to be prepared for it. That is why the option of using general anesthesia shouldn't be entered into lightly.
However, the client has entered into an agreement expecting a healthy surgically repaired pet. He/she is not receiving that service because they didn't get the pet back. If we look upon the pet as the law does, as a belonging, the client no longer has what they had when they came into the office. For that reason, although you did provide a service you also took away the client's "belonging."
Now who owes whom?

Chris October 22nd, 2008 11:05:00 AM

Chris: Along those lines--the contract is to provide the services. But does that also include returning the pet alive? Sure, in the absence of a written document (a signed consent form), it's understood that such is the implicitly desired outcome. But it's not always possible given the "informed consent" client-doctor discussion you reference.

In fact, that's why most hospitals now ask every client to sign documents before the pet undergoes a procedure. Despite the signature, most vets won't charge in these cases. But it's in no way a legal necessity that we offer this financial recognition of their loss.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 22nd, 2008 11:16:00 AM

I am glad to hear that the marjority of people on VIN feel that the latter approach (forgiveness of the bill) is the right one. I'd advise them to maintain this position even if the client doesn't hold the vet harmless.

Dr. Khuly has specified that her scenario is one in which the death occurs due to factors "outside their control." I think this phrase is key.

It is my experience that when a pet dies in the care of a vet during a routine procedure the vet always feels it was due to factors "outside their control." This opinion is not always shared by clients. I will give you some real world examples:

1. This happened to me, and it's not the story you usually hear from me. Years ago, I adopted a street cat, suffering from what I believed to be recurrent respiratory infections. Every time I took him to the vet, they sent me home with antibiotics. Sometimes they seemed to work. Then one time -- the last time -- he'd been on antibiotics for 10 days and wasn't getting better. I called and made a morning appointment. I got there and they were backed up. They asked me to leave him there so they could get to him later. I did. They called me about an hour and a half later, and told me that he was blue, and in the process of dying due to an asthma attack. They had given him epi, oxygen, whatever you do in these circumstances, and he was increasingly terrified, which was making things worse. They pressured me to allow them to euthanize him right then. I did. During this conversation, they revealed to me that his chart noted that he had previously been diagnosed with asthma on a prior visit. This diagnosis was never shared with me. No treatments were ever discussed with me. Had I known he had asthma -- him being a very timid and frightful kitty -- the last thing I would have done woudl have been leave him at the vets. They charged me for his treatment and euthanasia. I paid it. But on reflection, I should have raised hell. Were the events that day out of the treating vets control? Yes. BUT. They happened I believe in large part because of the fact that they were so darned busy and backed up all the time, they never even told me my cat had asthma or discussed treatment with me, and why they kept scripting out ABs I will never know.

2. A dog goes in for a routine nail clipping and anal gland expression. The owner leaves him there. The vet decides -- without discussing it with the client -- to get urine from the dog and test for UTI, since he's had recurrent UTIs in the past. The dog doesn't have a full bladder and they get nothing via centesis. So instead of waiting, the vet catheterizes the dog to get urine. The dog has some kind of reaction to the catheterization, goes itno cardiac arrest. He is revived but suffers brain damage. When the owner arrives, she gets there in time to see him seize and die. Was this "out of the vets control?" Certainly, it was an abnormal reaction to being catheterized. But wasn't catheterizing the dog a bit rought as a method to get a urine sample that wasn't requested? I had occasion to discuss this with the vet who had done it. He was truly heartbroken. So much so, he'd fled the premises rather than face the owner. He felt he was being thorough. But he also acknowledged that his bosses had him under intense time pressure to get pets in and out to generate revenue. Is this why he catheterized instead of waiting? (they didn't charge her for the nail clipping and anal gland expression . . . )

3. Dogs (several) die while under anesthesia for dentals at a local dentistry center. Vet claims pets must have had underlying cardiac issues. But he kept an 11 year dog under for over 3 hours. Another younger dogs owner checked the drug doses given her dog, and alleges that the dog was given too much of one drug, in light of other drugs that were used. (Three drugs were given, at lest 2 were respiratory suppressants). Dog died immediately after induction. Vet wants client to pay. Client doesn't want to pay. (Cilent is reporting vet). If I'm remembering correctly, a necropsy was done and showed no heart problems.

4. Dog dies after routine knee xrays. Had been given domitor. Vet told client dog must have very bad cardiac disease. Necropsy shows no cardiac disease, dog is young. Questions remain about whether or not reversal agent was given in time or dog was monitored as he should have been.

All these vets claim the factors were outside there control. Some expected to be paid. Others did not. In either case . . .

Vets nearly always say it was "out of their control. " This is not always true.

Stefani October 22nd, 2008 11:56:00 AM

Stefani: Thanks for weighing in (as I'm sure Barbara will and perhaps Fotini, too).

"Out of our control" is the operative phrase, perhaps, but determining whether that's truly the case can be subjective--hence the issues that arise.

Would I have done something differently had I known what was going to occur? Almost always the answer is, "Yes, I would have done x, y or z." Does that mean we were wrong not to have done it differently in the first place? Not usually. Hindsight is 20-20.

Moreover, sometimes we can learn from our hindsight and sometimes we can't. In other words, even had I known how this case would turn out this knowledge is individual to the situation-- it won't prevent it from happening again to another case.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 22nd, 2008 12:15:00 PM

I was right there with you in asking for payment until I saw that picture of the adorable puppy. You can't get paid for accidentally killing puppies. I think it's in the Constitution somewhere. Or maybe it's a Commandment. I'm not sure which but I know I read it somewhere.

On a serious note...I think how I felt about paying in the case of a routine-gone-bad situation would depend on the relationship I had with the vet. Oddly, probably the more I knew and trusted the vet the less likely I would be to take offense at paying...but that's probably the situation the vet would also be least likely to ask for payment too.

Of course if I thought the vet was careless, or maybe just obnoxious about it, they would have to pry payment from my cold dead paws.

Larry October 22nd, 2008 04:18:00 PM

Going the extra mile is what I would say about the vet covering the cost. In other words, each case judged separately.

After my cat was put to sleep at the vets, at my request (I knew the situation was hopeless but they didnt offer to do the deed), I ran out to the car and cried, but went back in and paid since he was there for three days taking up cage space, intravenous drugs, time, etc. I paid numbly, and felt strange paying when I didnt have a pet to take home. I considered driving off and paying later, but decided getting it over with was better.

I never considered not having to pay. But it is a time of high emotion and reactions can be different to the norm from that person. I know my case was different, but the emotions were similar.

Robin October 22nd, 2008 06:23:00 PM

Wow, Dr. K., I feel invited to comment! I'll list 3 real examples/scenarios:

1. Routine spay & I have completed all the pre-requisites & then some: If my pet dies, something went awry---I would expect serious discussion, apology, and no charge.

2. Referred for spinal surgery w/ middle age pet (8 1/2): risk of anesthesia is brought up by owner and dismissed as non-issue, pet dies, no charge should be warranted. Obviously, that did NOT happen. However, risks were made clear regarding success of the nature of the surgery----whole different ballgame, regardless of outcome, we are obligated (and I will add, that it was a complete success)

3. *extremely* elderly dog is presented with painful glaucoma, surgery is option, however not "only" option, still something could have gone terribly wrong with short-acting drug used, or with procedure, we would feel obligated to pay regardless

4. agree to attempt treatment for old, near death dog. change mind & request euthanasia, pressured to continue, etc. etc., vet finally agrees after week of torture and suffering that patient is hopeless, inhumanely kill dog via toxic chemical in owner's arms, ---lovely NH clinic not only charges ludicrous amount in full but chases owner for small balance, ruins owners credit, life, & cherished memory of pet....sound unbelievable?? How about running that one by on the VIN network.

Accidents can happen to the best of professionals, deliberate cruelty is an entirely different matter.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 22nd, 2008 06:34:00 PM

I have to disagree with most people commenting and with Dr K today. If an animal dies accidentally in a routine procedure, I would still expect to pay the bill. The vet rendered a service and I agreed to pay for that service. Its an entirely different story if I have any reason to think that there was a mistake made or advice from the vet beforehand overlooked.

As I type this, I feel like I should justify my opinon by saying that I have been fortunate enough to never have an animal die in the care of a vet.

Shannon October 22nd, 2008 07:46:00 PM

Reading all the comments, and adding my own feelings, it comes down to: What's the relationship of the client and the vet?

If my poodle went to have his teeth cleaned, I know, or I think I know, that my vet, who I've been going to for 20 years, would do a good professional job. If the worst happened, he probably wouldn't charge, but if he did, I'd pay.

If my vet retires and I go to someone new, I'm not so sure I'd pay. I might have doubts about him or her. (although why I'd let someone I didn't trust do more than give a shot, I don't know)

Also, let's be honest, with a strange vet, if I did pay, I'd never go back. And I'd probably tell everyone, so the vets are wise not to charge. It would be just adding fuel to the fire.

Of course if the situation was that my cat was hit by a car, I rushed him to the nearest vet and that vet operated, but kitty died, I'd pay in a minute and thank him for taking me, a stranger. An animal (or person) can be so sick there's not much anyone can do.

Love this blog

Barbara

Barbara October 22nd, 2008 08:02:00 PM

I think payment would depend on many things.... If my pet were in for a routine spay, and died, if the spay wasn't completed because the pet died, I wouldn't expect to pay for it.

But if a mishap occurred that fell into the category of "sh** happens" , I would expect to pay. Not talking negligence or stupid or whatever... just bad karma. I would pay for bad karma....

Comes back to the ol' relationship we have with our vets..... and the relationship they have with us.

Agadoresmama October 22nd, 2008 09:30:00 PM

i'll just make the point that if you go to an MD and die - due to negligence, extended illness, or complications associated with your disease - you still pay.in the vast majority of veterinary related deaths - gross negligence was not a factor. things happen - anesthetic complications, surgical complications - HELL surgical mistakes happen. vets (and MDs) are humans and therefore not perfect. you are not paying for perfection. you're paying a professional with more knowledge and skills than yourself to do the best they can by your pet - and sometimes the best they can do isn't enough.

all of you here that want to crucify veterinarians for mistakes they made - who think all vets are money grubbing liars who don't really care about animals - you drive me up the wall. i'm sorry you lost animals in terrible situations - but jesus - get a life, get over it, and move on. the vets i know are good people. i'm a good person who takes my job so seriously i'm afraid i'm going to burn out at this rate. i care about every patient i see, i spend time on VIN trying to find answers when i can't come up with them.

vets are human too. try to remember that when considering all the mistakes you talk about.

a vet October 22nd, 2008 09:31:00 PM

Dear "a vet", First of all a question was posed. Are the readers supposed to answer what you want to hear or their opinion? Second of all, where do you get that humans pay for mistakes? Hello, that is why every professional in human medicine pays bigtime mal premiums, including anesthesiologists.

Lastly, my comment for example included 3 real-life scenarios & thoughts regarding payment. The last was a bonus freebie real-life event, that obviously illustrates the worst in the veterinary profession, like it or not, it is those folks that contribute to the "drag", not the patient/clients.

Get a life? I had one before that life-altering event, who goes to a vet for suffering & cruelty?
Oh, and as most comments...it all boils down to "trust" once again, which you don't get in 4 visits.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 22nd, 2008 09:42:00 PM

The reason that human MDs pay huge premiums is because our courts and the bottom-feeding lawyers out there have perpetuated a system of frivolous lawsuits. There are cases in which lawsuits are justified - but they are not the rule.

and it IS the clients sometimes that contribute to the "drag" - i've heard and seen it a thousand times. when you spend hours of your time with a patient, talk to the owner and try to explain everything over and over again - and then they act like you've never mentioned anesthetic or surgical complications. most people STOP listening - no matter how concise and forthright you are. that's why i type EVERYTHING i've told the owner in the medical record. i record every phone conversation so that when someone tells me you never told me "X" - i can go back and show them our documented conversation.

it's really sad that i have to do that to protect myself from vultures, but i do.

and human patients do pay. they may get it back later in a lawsuit, but they pay.

a vet October 22nd, 2008 10:00:00 PM

My apologies to you, "a vet", you are indeed under terrible stress, feeling that the vulture/clients are waiting for you. I don't know why it should be such a worry when a pet has no more value than a toaster, regardless how much money the client has spent over the years on their property.

I would add that good record-keeping is a benefit for you; no doubt, one cannot remember every patient or every visit.Definitely a credit to you.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 22nd, 2008 10:12:00 PM

i certainly don't feel like pets have no more worth than toasters. if that were the case, i wouldn't have cried 3 times on monday after working the busiest weekend in 6 months in the only emergency clinic in our metro area. i don't know if that was a shot at me or not. i was talking about lawyers mainly - not clients - as the vultures. and it IS very stressful being a doctor and having people expect you to know everything and to always do everything right - because on top of their expectations are your own expectations for yourself - and mine are very high. maybe that isn't the case for every doctor, but i can tell you that when i can't meet a client's expectations or my own expectations and when i can't find answers - then i feel like a failure - no matter how severe the disease, no matter how hopeless the case. i take it with me -and i don't forget. on top of that, i do emergency work -which is stressful in a whole other way.

yes, keeping good records is to my credit. i have been criticized for being too slow at seeing patients because i try to be so thorough in my medical records. it's not only for my protection but so that my patients can be better cared for when i am absent.

a vet October 22nd, 2008 10:25:00 PM

Death is a risk in anesthesia. Always. No amount of pre-surgical work-ups or proper procedures will completely eliminate that risk, although all attempts should be made to make it as low as possible.

If a client hands their pet over for any surgery, no matter how routine, they MUST understand that it is possibility that their pet will not make it through, and not because the vet screwed up. My own cat had an allergic reaction to acepromazine and went into a 36 hour coma after his dental, but I know that there was no way I could have predicted that - I knew my cat was heathy, and he had a full pre-surgical panel.

Should an owner question the circumstances if a "healthy" 6-month old dog dies during a neuter? Yes. Does it mean they don't have to pay? Nope. Every surgery involves a risk/benefit analysis, and the owner needs to be fully informed of the risks and willing to accept them.

beth October 22nd, 2008 10:40:00 PM

This referral surgery hospital is the same one I took my dog to for surgery (an obstruction that was not there), and my pet died 3 days after surgery! Two dead dogs within 6 months at the hands of the same surgeons and their hospital. Both times things were out of control?

"On April 29th I went to the Vetinary Emergency Hospital on Acton Rd. Birmingham, AL. I was referred by the vet I had used for years, who after examing my dog, send that he had a bad knee which had started to cause my dog to have a slight limp, upon his referral I went to see Dr. Milton at the Vet Emergency hospital for a consult to have surgery on my dog.

My dog was only limping slightly, and after leaving him with the Dr. to exam, I was told that my dog had more going on, I was told that it could be one of the following things, cnacer, tumor, possibly an infection and in order to find out he would have to do a biopsy and not knowing better I agreed to the procedure. I left my dog over night and picked him up next day, and after the biopsy his right rear leg was up. I asked about the leg being up, and when would I hear about results of biopsy, as well when my dog would put his leg back down. The answer on the biopsy was the next week they would have the results, and that his leg would come down to use in 3 or so weeks. Well the following week I never heard from the vet, so I called and left messages 3 x's and did not get return call, so after 2 weeks I walked into their office to get answers, of which I was not given an explanation on why no calls were returned, as well I was informed the biopsy was inconclusive, and he would resubmit more material to get a new result and to get back to him next week, of which I did and not response from the vet. After calling for another 3 weeks I had to go down there and make it very obvious that I was not happy with the lack of response again and as well as my dog's leg was still up. What this vet's answer was well I will amputate the leg, and I did not like this response.

Well my dog's leg never came down and I went to another vet, and not my origanil vet who was my regular vet to get some help. The new vet was outstanding and felt that my dog had developed a tumor from the leg being injured from the biopsy. Well my dog died on September 15, 2008 and I asked the new vet to do an autopsy, and the results came back that when doing the biopsy Dr. Milton had severed the nerve in my dog's leg, thus causing the dog's leg to lock. My biggest fustration is that I was never told by Dr. Milton what he had done, and than I was never contacted by my old vet who referred my.

I would ask anyone that should ever have a biopsy done on their pet, to make sure that it is totally necessary, and that you are confident in who the vet is, and that they will communicate with you all the way. Unquote (ref: vetpeeves)

Fotini October 22nd, 2008 11:58:00 PM

Dear "a vet"
You are exactly the type of vet people should grab their animals and run screaming from your office.
You have an attitude that tells me you are in the wrong business.

<<you drive me up the wall. i'm sorry you lost animals in terrible situations - but jesus - get a life, get over it, and move on. the vets i know are good people. i'm a good person who takes my job so seriously i'm afraid i'm going to burn out at this rate.>>

You're already burnt out....run towards the nearest exit and get a job more suited to your personality. Maybe something with a desk and a cubicle...

If your attitude that people who have lost pets need to get a life, you need a short visit to the local shrink to have some sensitivity training.

good thing you post anonymously.

LorriM October 23rd, 2008 12:56:00 AM

Thanks for weighing in (as I'm sure Barbara will and perhaps Fotini, too).


Dr. K: Since you referred to me, I offer the following question for an honest answer: Is misdiagnosis and mistreatment situations that go out of control? A week after my poodle died, I started telephone calls (due to distance) trying to get some answers as to what exactly had heppened to no avail! No one wanted to talk to me let alone give me copies of my pet's medical records, surgery and anesthesia protocols. On the third week after my pet's passing, the surgeon came to the phone only when I asked the receptionist to send me copies of my pet's records. Only then, the surgeon came to the phone to tell me that he didn't know what went wrong. He very anxiously asked me what I needed copies of my pet's records for. Of course, all these and more details are at my website.

Fotini October 23rd, 2008 01:03:00 AM

Nice timing, Dr. Khuly! We just had to read the article in DVM Newsmagazine about this VIN discussion in preparation for talks with our mock clients. As part of the GI terminal surgery that we do junior year, we has mock clients that we first have to call to discuss the procedure, why it's necessary, possible complications, get consent, quote them an estimate, answer any questions they have, etc. Then, after the surgery, we have to call to tell them that their dog didn't survive, and explain what happened based on a case scenario we receive. We are also supposed to discuss the bill...

I didn't participate in the terminal surgery (I did an alternative track), but I still had to do the mock client interaction. Sure is easy to forgive the whole bill when it's a simulation, but I still can't imagine asking an owner to pay if their pet doesn't survive a procedure. Obviously emergency situations are different, but having worked in a general practice that saw only one death after a routine procedure while I was working there (found to be hypertrophic cardiomyopathy on necropsy), it doesn't seem like a huge financial burden on a clinic to forgive the bill in those bizarre situations. If it IS a huge financial burden, perhaps that's an indication that you need to change some protocols?

I am starting to cringe every time one of our professors mentions that, eventually, something I do WILL cause the death of a patient, because that is the nature of medicine and working with biological systems rather than machines. I understand the need to warn us that not everything is roses and butterflies, but it's also making me terrified of doing anything slightly on the riskier side of medicine (which is often where the most positive things happen, too). But is it more about the mistakes you make, or how you respond to those mistakes?

Megan October 23rd, 2008 01:21:00 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here (not really) and defend my fellow "a vet" in this discussion.

I don't think most pet owners truly appreciate the stress of the average ER vet. Having worked in this line of vet work for more than a couple of years I can tell you that it's hard having to handle a largely adversarial clientele day after day, night after night. The clientele is so predisposed because these vets don't get a chance to prove they're caring and wonderful and trustworthy. All they've got is one shot at your trust on a night when it's possible every case (in the back, where you can't see) is trying to die.

Even if you're the best vet in the world sometimes it sucks to have to do this tough job knowing you'll never be as appreciated as the vet who gets Christmas presents and chocolates at Valentine's.

"A vet" is not asking for chocolates, of course, just for some understanding that his/her work is something he/she takes so seriously that it's frustrating to be undermined by considerations both financial and related to trust. It's stressful to have to advocate for the animal when an owner either 1) cares not enough for their pet, 2) assumes you're out for their wallet and 3) views you as the enemy.

You may not be this client (in fact, you're probably not if you're reading this) but there's a preponderance of owners like that out there--enough so that sometimes (especially on a tough night) it's hard for us to assume you don't hold this view.

It may seem strange to hear about what it feels like from the other side of the stainless steel table but...there you have it.

I hope I didn't speak out of school, "a vet."

Dr. Patty Khuly October 23rd, 2008 08:05:00 AM

Megan: I am soooo please to hear that discussions like this are now part of the veterinary curriculum. If they weren't you'd be really missing out--especially when deciding what kind of vet medicine suits you best. Kudos to your school!

Dr. Patty Khuly October 23rd, 2008 08:18:00 AM

I don't think it's fair to make personal attacks against "a vet" (like "run towards the nearest exit and get a job more suited to your personality. Maybe something with a desk and a cubicle..." or "I don't know why it should be such a worry when a pet has no more value than a toaster, regardless how much money the client has spent over the years on their property").

I'm not a vet, but I try to be a caring and compassionate person.I write an advice column for cat owners, and I do occasionally get letters from people who are like, "My cat is seriously injured but I don't want to spend the money to take her to the vet. What can I do at home?" Trust me, my first reaction to questions like these is rarely one of compassion and kindness. By the time I get around to answering the question, my rational mind kicks in and I realize that it's not going to benefit anyone if I'm judgmental and self-righteous in answering questions like these.

We all have good days and bad days. Some days it's hard to take a "zen" attitude about the people and behaviors we encounter in our lives. Some days all of us are more b*tchy than others.That doesn't mean we don't care about our clients, the people who write to us for advice, our co-workers, our family, etc.

I just write this in hopes that some of you will try to be more fair and take a breath before hitting "post." It probably was a bad idea for "a vet" to write his/her comment before engaging his/her mind and use such inflammatory language. But it's just as unfair for people to jump all over his/her case and assume he/she is heartless or burned out or whatever.

JaneA October 23rd, 2008 08:25:00 AM

Wow - quite a topic.

I guess I tend to fall in the earlier posters in that, never would I EXPECT my Vet to pay if Lottie died in a routine procedure. And for a Vet to do so starts down a slippery slope of "I'll Pay if you're successful" expectations. It's bizarre and undermines the complextiy of what Vets do as well as undermines the fact that our beloved pets are complex creatures with a variety of fragile systems, not unlike us humans.
Personally, I fret over all vet appointments. I brush my dog's teeth EVERY NIGHT because I can't bear the thought of her having to undergo anesthetic for her teeth cleaning (I think that is considered "routine") and having something happen. Now, if Lottie were to die while undergoing a routine teeth cleaning, would I blame the Vet? Hell no, first I'd blame myself for not taking better care of her teeth. THEN, I would want to know exactly what happened, how it could have been prevented and what can we learn from it for the future. Do I think my Vet is the type that would not ask for payment if such a thing were to happen (based on our relationship, his knowledge of my committment to my pet, and his love of my pet)? Possibly, but I tend not to think about that. And would I ever EXPECT that? Absolutely not. No way.

Imagine the insult for a moment, if you dropped your pet off for her spay ("routine"). And you said what we all say when you handed her off "Will she be okay? I'm really nervous. Please call as soon as she wakes up" and the tech responded with "Oh, don't worry. She'll be fine. And you know, if she dies we won't charge you for it". Imagine that! Because that is what you are expecting and I think that is a twisted sense of respect and expectations. If you respect and trust your Vet enough with your pet's life, and if you love your animals, you should respect the fact that day in and day out they are doing everything they can. If you do not trust your Vet, don't leave your pet with him- find a new vet, even for "routine" surgeries.

Creature of Habit October 23rd, 2008 08:49:00 AM

Re Shannon:

"If an animal dies accidentally in a routine procedure," . . .

The reason, Shannon, so many of us have posted on this is the concept of whether or not the death is outside the vets control. I'll grant that the vast majority of deaths -- even when they are not outside the vets control, and where the vet was perhaps negligent in some way -- are nonetheless accidental in the sense that they are not intentional. One would hope.

But -- what do you have to say to this???

I was on a national conference call a few years ago with John Robb, DVM, who founded "Protect the Pets." He stated that when an owner is told that their pet died due to a REACTION to the anesthesia (during a routine procedure), it is often the case that what REALLY happened is that some unlicensed/inadequately trained "tech" turned the machine up too high.

Chris says "one must assume" that the cause is a reaction to the anesthesia. Well, he may assume that -- and that may be the general rule among your profession. But in many cases, errors of some kind in monitoring or administration of drugs may be either contributing or causative factors.

One of Dr. Robb's big issues -- which he issued a press release on -- was the use of unlicensed technicians, and based on his comments during the concall, the danger they pose when allowed to control anesthesia administration or monitoring is one reason he is so concerned about that. Unfortunately, for his well-intended and constructive efforts to foster honest discussion with the goal of improving his profession, he was generally attacked and shunned by his colleagues.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 09:13:00 AM

Jane, it is really hard to personally attack someone who is anonymous.

And after all, Dr. Khuly permits personal attacks on some of us here who are not anonymous.

"Get a life" is pretty personal, too.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 09:17:00 AM

Stefani: I've spoken to Dr. Robb personally and he and I agree on all the issues we discussed. It seems to me that some anesthetic cases might well be mismanaged by unlicensed techs and the industry definitely needs faster reform in that direction. It does, however, seem uncharacteristic for him to say that that's *usually* what happens. In my view it's not. But, then, I do know some stinker vets, too--not the norm, though.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 23rd, 2008 09:39:00 AM

I'm glad to hear you and Dr. Robb see eye to eye. He's a good egg.

I didn't say "usually". I said "often" (often doesn't mean necessarily the majority of the time.)

Although I don't have a tape recording of this call, I left with the impression that he feels it occurs more than it should, and that these occurrances are not infrequent enough to be ignored. I believe he feels this is one negative manifestation of using unlicenced techs.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 10:58:00 AM

My personal feelings are that if my dog died during a routine procedure I would be understanding, but I would also not expected to then be handed a bill for "services rendered". Sure, the vet is well within their rights to do it, but just because they can doesn't mean it's the best idea. You slap a bill down after a client's pet dies in dental cleaning and I can assure you that you're not only losing that client - but likely many more once the word gets around. How often does something like this happen anyway? I would expect it to be a pretty rare occurrence (less than 1% of cases?), and as such the vet is probably better off just eating the cost in such situations.

And the folks beating up on "a vet" need to get a grip, and try looking at the situation from a different perspective.

Chip October 23rd, 2008 11:41:00 AM

I am going to defend "a vet"as well. I think he/she was speaking an opinion just the way any of us do. a Vet's post showed me he/she certainly cares about he animals he/she treats and I don't he/she deserves a perconal attack.
When "a vet","get a life, move on." If a terrible thing happens, whether it's to your dog,your child, your husband, yes it's terrible but you do have to deal with it and not let it dictate how you see everything in your life. You can wrap yourself up in pain but that's not living.
I don't think vets set out to hurt any animal, but mistakes happen, unforseen things happen everyday for both humans and animals. We are not talking about anyone hurting animals on purpose with this topic.

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia October 23rd, 2008 01:08:00 PM

To "vet":

"i'll just make the point that if you go to an MD and die - due to negligence, extended illness, or complications associated with your disease - you still pay . . . "

Not so with the former. If you die due to negligence, and that negligence is provable, and you were still in your earning years, chances are good that your family gets a lawyer, and files a lawsuit which results in a large undisclosed settlement, terms of which include your family signing a gag order never to discuss what occurred or reveal the settlement terms. If the medical professionals involved don't settle (and most do), then what they face is a trial in which PUBLIC RECORD will be created revealing their negligence. The reason you can't find out information on med mal cases -- even though "iatrogenic" causes are one of the top ten causes of human death by even conservative estimates -- is precisely because most of them throw money at the victims' survivors and simultaneously buy their silence. .

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 05:10:00 PM

thanks for the defense on my part. since the internet is in general anonymous, i didn't feel it necessary to attach my name to the post - because i could make up any name - and it wouldn't make any difference. i'll put my first name, if that makes people feel it's somehow less anonymous.

at any rate, thank you for the defense dr khuly, you articulate exactly what i ineptly tried to say. in ER work, you never have a chance to prove yourself to clients - unless their animal remains in the hospital - which happens about 50% of the time because we are also a referral hospital. many of the clients are angry at the expense of being in the ER clinic - which i have absolutely zero control over - and they take it out on you. on top of that - they have very sick animals often, so their stress level is thru the roof.

on my side - this saturday for instance - we had 40 cages full of very sick animals. i had to drop everything i was doing and do a pericardiocentesis to save a dog dying of rat poisoning. he was bleeding into the sac around his heart - and he collapsed in cardiac arrest. we tapped his chest, removed the blood, and transfused it as well as another dog's blood right back in to him. it took an hour and a half to save him. do you think the clients who had to wait to be seen with their dog that had a minor laceration understood? no - i had to go in a room and be berated for taking so long.

i ate ONCE that day - in a 20 hour shift - i had a bite to eat at 1pm - and then worked 18 straight hours without food, water, or using the bathroom. and i still get yelled at by my clients for having to wait. i don't sit down, i don't stop. i work work work. i'm doing technician work because we're so short-handed and doctor work at the same time. it's incredibly hard.

in that situation YOU CANNOT BE PERFECT. you triage and you move to the next client. you do the best you can with the employees you have and the limited time you have to diagnose - and you let it go at the end of the day.

i didn't mean to take out my frustration on anyone here - but it is a true statement. bad things happen to everyone - and there will never be a way to change that they happened. you have to let go and move on - find the happy things in life and let go of the bitterness. that's what i'm working on doing.

i love my job. i actually do get cards and candy and cookies and once a kitchen appliance for our clinic as thank yous for my hard work.

catherine October 23rd, 2008 05:47:00 PM

Catherine- you sound like you do indeed care, and are WAY overworked.... I dunno where you are, but wherever it is, they need to get some more help....

good luck to you- and thanks for working so hard to hekp out the animals...

Agadoresmama October 23rd, 2008 07:20:00 PM

I still stand by my earlier comments. Time for a new job if you feel that way.

I spent 15 plus years working trauma/triage in a city ER....if even once in my 12 hrs + shift I had the attitude "get a life and move on" because someone a person loved and cared about died either from a mistake or just as the general passage of life, I'd have not only been in the wrong business, but I'd have been subject to disciplinary action and or more.
When people die from shoddy medicine practices they don't pay....they get paid as Stefani so aptly stated. In fact many times if during the M&M discussions it is determined the DR is at fault, it is simply settled quickly and quietly.
truth is, I still believe that "a vet" needs a vacation, some counseling and or a new job. It seems that the stress of the job has become too much and the compassion has become secondary.

LorriM October 23rd, 2008 07:33:00 PM

Catherine - I don't see anything in what you wrote that says you don't care, in fact it's the opposite. Don't ever stop caring. If things get funky, take a break and recharge..

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia October 23rd, 2008 08:19:00 PM

I'll go half way....yes, I fully understand that an ER vet, particularly in a large city has to be under stress more so than a GP. But Catherine, a person that takes their pet to your facility obviously DOES care, regardless of appearance or actions. I don't expect any vet to "love or care" about my pets the way I do. I just expect the "respect" for my feelings about my pets, and to do best by them as can be done.

And when you quote "lawyer vultures", I can't help but wonder what planet you live on, or at least what state. First of all, even the most egregious malpractice committed on a pet, is a "non-moneymaker" in the eyes of 99.9% attorneys. In most states, you would be hard-pressed to find one to take an vet mal case.

Creature: Isn't it a bit too simplistic to say "if you don't 'trust' your vet, don't have...."? I think the best people to answer this question are people that went through this experience...and there are many out there.

Megan: I had the impression that terminal surgeries were no longer done in the US? What school is this, if you don't mind sharing?

As far as the "wallet" issue that Dr. K. brought up, there are good & horrible referral hospitals---I've been to both. And when you are floundering in an unknown situation, it is hard to decipher what is what, including cost.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 23rd, 2008 08:22:00 PM

Catherine, I am sorry you feel so incredibly stressed and angry when clearly you are trying to help animals in terrible circumstances. Your working conditions are appalling, and this is clearly contributing to the pain and defensiveness you are feeling. I would encourage you to go to the bathroom, drink and eat something, NO MATTER WHAT is awaiting your attention. I know this wouldn't be easy. Maybe it would get you fired, I don't know. But I do know that I would not like my animal to be seen by someone who had not eaten or had anything to drink, or gone to the bathroom, in 18 hours. Short of a solid 18 hour stretch (without a single moment of even slightly less emergent emergencies) of clients with animals literally bleeding to death, no one should be expected to, nor should anyone accept, such conditions. Doing so is not being conscientious, it's helping your employers to abuse you, and it will not lead to better care for animals, it will only invite more abuse.

The person with the minor laceration case should get a simple, very brief explanation of the severe crisis that kept them waiting, an even quicker apology, and then left to decide for him or herself whether to offer the apology they now owe you. This would be AFTER the five additional minutes they waited while you had a drink of water, juice, whatever, making you much better able to adequately evaluate and treat their pet.

And by the way, nobody here, to my understanding of their posts, even hinted at the idea that vets should be crucified for mistakes.

Judy October 23rd, 2008 09:12:00 PM

barbara: i don't entirely agree with you that someone that brings their animal to my facility cares about their pet. people present animals to me for MANY reasons: guilt for neglecting them is a big one, as well as animals that are so gravely ill that they're dying and P.S. - the owners have noticed he/she hasn't been feeling well for "a while" (a while being 6 weeks of anorexia) but they wanted to wait and see if he got better because they didn't want to spend money.

like last weekend - i saw a parvo puppy. i told the owners i suspected parvo and recommended a parvo test. i was assured that it couldn't be parvo. why not? you ask. because the owners assured me that their LAST puppy had parvo, and it didn't look like this! i asked them did they vaccinate this puppy? the answer: no - it cost too much. guess what the puppy had? parvo. guess what i had to do? euthanize it.

lorriM: i don't have the feeling EVER that people who have just lost a loved one - animal or human should just get over it. i'm talking about years after the fact - when people dwell on the unfairness of life and the blows dealt to them by bad doctors or bad vets or bad court systems. never once in a 12 hour (or much longer) shift have i ever expected anyone who has freshly experienced a loss to move on with their life immediately. that's not what i'm talking about. i cry with my owners frequently while doing euthanasia. hell - i cry IN THE BACK when there aren't any owners and i'm left to put down a sick animal myself. and i do it a lot. i've been told that i'm too attached and too compassionate about my patients. i've spent many a night HOURS after my shift ended sitting with a particularly critical patient and administering medications (as i noted when i said that i'm doing 50% technician work). i'm not burnt out, and i don't need a new job. i have no shortage of compassion. but thanks for your thoughts.

judy: it's not exactly the thoughts here - but i've followed the links of those who have pages here about their own experiences - and some of their actions could only be described as crusades against veterinarians.

catherine October 23rd, 2008 09:46:00 PM

barbara: yes - schools still do terminal surgeries. as of last year, my alma mater still does them for the elective soft tissue surgery lab. these are research animals that will be euthanized anyway, so the stsx class does surgery on them and puts them down while they are still anesthetized.

catherine October 23rd, 2008 10:07:00 PM

catherine, I think LorriM was responding to "vet" when she was responding to the "get a life" remark.

If one of my cats died under anesthesia while in the care of their current vet (who has assured me that she uses licensed techs, monitors, IV, all that stuff during dentals), I would review everything related to the procedure. If this uncovered nothing amiss, then yes, I would accept it as just one of those things, and I'd be willing to pay my bill if they asked. But if they did not ask me to pay I would not insist.

Before dentals we usually have very detailed discussions in which I have her reassure me yet again about those licensed techs, the monitoring, the IVs and intubation. And always pre-anesthetic bloodwork and exam. She knows what I've been through, and she knows I want the most cautious care. I doubt she'd cut corners, but I'd still verify as best I could in the wake of something like that. What I'd do with the information if I found that they had "slipped" somehow is something that I would struggle with.

What do you do when a good vet has a bad day? It depends on the relationship. If somehow there was a slip of some kind, I would expect not to pay, at the least. What I did from that point would truly depend on how forthright they were, and whether or not they convinced me they were taking steps to ensure it did not happen again. They could maintain the trust if I truly believed it wasn't a danger of becoming a pattern, or something that was being excused. But there is nothing worse when a vet (or any medical professional) says "it was out of my control" and you later find that's not true.

But if it really was just a true unforeseen irreversible drop in blood pressure or cardiac arrest -- no cutting corners, no evident slip or compromise of their purported standards -- and they refused payment from me, it would be a gesture of good will on their part -- not some kind of admission of guilt. I wouldn't interpret it that way and I don't think most clients would.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 10:16:00 PM

i euthanized daisy when she went into DIC with IMHA and wasn't expected to survive the night. she was at a speciality clinic for 36 hours so i expected a specialty level bill. the only thing that bothered me was the hundreds of dollars for send out tests (shipped from ohio to nc). i felt it would have been kind for them to call the lab and have the tests that were in route cancelled as she was dead and all. it also took them weeks to send me the bill which was annoying, especially as they never notified me that i was exceeding the $1500 deposit so i assumed it had been paid in full. oh well. i'm still glad that i was able to give her a chance.

Sarah October 23rd, 2008 10:20:00 PM

Oh, BTW, if everyone in the world just "got over it" and "got on with it", we'd have no:

Mothers Against Drunk Drivers
America's Most Wanted
Bella Moss Foundation (pet MRSA)
Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation
Center for Missing and Exploited Children
Medically Induced Trauma Support Services (trauma related to med mal/errors/injury)
SorryWorks Coalition (supporting medical error disclosure and apology)
National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children
Kids and Cars (action and education on issues like kids dying in hot cars, being rolled over, etc.)

And a whole bunch more. I say here's to the people who don't just forget and move on! They make a difference for others. They are my heros.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 10:33:00 PM

Barbara- yes, terminal surgeries are still done at most schools in the US, although I don't know of any schools where they are still a required part of the program. You can see a list of what school do as far as surgeries and alternatives at http://www.avar.org/tech_school.asp . I attend the University of Minnesota. This is an elective part of the course, which is why, as I said, I was able to participate in an alternative track.

Like Catherine's experience, the terminal surgery dogs are research dogs at the end of their research careers due to be euthanized. The lab treats them as we would any surgery patients, with pain medication, fluids, anesthesia, aseptic technique, etc.

The vast majority of our surgical experience in school is performing spays and neuters on shelter animals, who then go back to the shelter to get adopted.

Megan October 23rd, 2008 10:33:00 PM

catherine, Perhaps you have only recently joined this blog. And I can say with 100% honesty, that my website and others like mine, are not posted because we are "petty little unhappy campers". I would give everything to have had my dog Pocket die a respectable humane death, just as many of my pets before her, and my 6 to go after her.

Unfortunately, the bad apples in your bunch are never held accountable, go on to do the same, time and time again, with no conscience or pressure to change or GET OUT.

Get over it & get a life? I have lost many a beloved pet, recently my Mom, and can get on without the tremendous emotional, physical, and mental harm---because those deaths did not involve INTENTIONAL suffering, cruelty, deception, fraud, and malpractice.

A person loses a family member to an illness, accident, they can move on. A person loses someone to murder? Well, often they turn to something constructive in attempt to prevent it from happening to others. Or for example: MADD, a small grassroots group started in Massachusetts.

And though an extreme example, would you say to a concentration camp victim, "oh, the war is over, get a life and move on"...yes, they do attempt to live life, but surely, not as they had lived prior to bearing witness to horror and cruelty.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 23rd, 2008 10:49:00 PM

"campaign against veterinarians" catherine? I presume my site is one of those to which you refer.

Are you REALLY taking up for veterinarians who leave unlicensed, unsupervised relatives alone to tend to patients and administer drugs as dangerous as insulin -- with the "no duh" inevitable consequences that will someday result? Do you take exposing such an individual as a "campaign against" all "veterinarians?"

With the exception of my own case, on which I provide additional detail, as well as general commentary, and an editorial or two, everything else on my site about any specific vet is from veterinary disciplinary board records. Are your vet boards in each state (comprised of fellow vets) on a "campaign against veterinarians?" Should no one ever be held accountable then? -- gauze left in a patient causing sepsis, ligation of ureters during spays, leaving animals in their own filth without adequate food and water and refusing owner pleas for their return? All that is from disciplinary records in 2007.

That is the problem. Too many good vets (and their conscientious staff) identify with the shoddy, sloppy, negligent and worse in their field, and would like to see those individuals protected, and participate in their protection. You don't need to excuse that kind of thing. You can stand up for quality and accountability. Some vets have. But when they do, vets in your field -- even good ones -- attack them. That's essentially casting their lot with the worst in the field.

Why you would identify with them, when from everything you've said, you work hard to be as good as you can and are very conscientious is beyond me. Maybe you live in so much fear of making a mistake that you actually think its possible you might let a boarding pet develop pressure sores and let them go untreated? or let them sit in their filth? or leave your summer break college kid to give injections? If you really identify with that stuff -- if you think "there but for the grace of God go I" when you read about a vet who does those things -- then you really do need a vacation.

Because if you are thinking that standing up against negligence or malpractice is a personal attack on you or a wholesale attack on your profession, you have DEFINITELY lost perspective -- because you aren't those vets, or at least that's what you say. No need to take it personally.

Stefani October 23rd, 2008 11:47:00 PM

Catherine:

Click on the link and let me know if I have tried to crusify this internist who was my pet's vet. He misdiagnosed my pet (or did he?) and my dog died because of his misdiagnosis after spending more than $5,000.

http://www.stopanimaltests.com/f-auburn.asp#top

Fotini October 24th, 2008 01:08:00 AM

the fact that PETA is involved in any way with that link has already made me disinterested in reading it. PETA is an organization of terrorists - and i will have nothing to do with them - nor do i give creedance to ANY of their "exposes." i'd be happy to read your story otherwise and elsewhere.

catherine October 24th, 2008 01:28:00 AM

sorry, i meant to say give credence - not creedance. and again - i'll REPEAT - misdiagnosis happens. it's not intentional, it happens because a) we cannot see inside our patient's bodies b) no test is 100% c) animals cannot tell us where it hurts and d) BECAUSE VETS ARE NOT GODS AND CANNOT FIGURE EVERY SINGLE THING OUT - no matter how good they are. WE FAIL - every single day - in veterinary medicine and human medicine. it's a fact of life. tests don't tell you everything - sometimes every test in the world can be normal, and an animal still dies.

catherine October 24th, 2008 01:32:00 AM

It's not that I think vets should stand up for those who have been found negligent or guilty of malpractice, but it's so easy to empathize with those who have committed some of the errors you mentioned. The ureter and horn of the uterus in those 2 pound pediatric kittens? They are SO easy to mistake for each other. YES you should always look for the ovary/kidney on the other end before you ligate, but it takes a moment of your brain being somewhere else- a sick kid, a different patient, anything- to do something as terrible as ligating a ureter. I can see how it happens, easily. Or that sponge left behind in the abdomen- you get a serious bleeding and all you worry about is stopping the bleeding at first, and neglect to count the sponges as you're frantically throwing them into the abdomen. A blood-soaked sponge disappears like nothing, and it doesn't take much to miss it. YES, they should always be counted, but... we are human.

I'm not trying to justify it. I can just see myself in the shoes of those vets so easily. It makes me terrified to do surgery, or any procedure that is remotely invasive. The idea of killing someone's pet, someone's love, is paralyzing. I know I'll need to overcome it in order to really be an effective vet who actually makes a difference in the world, but that means accepting- like catherine has been trying to point out- that I am human and I will make mistakes.

Maybe it would be good to have some positive reinforcement, a la dog training. You only ever go in front of the board when you do bad things. How about that GDV dog you save, or the cancer patient that you give palliative care to in his last days? I want to go in front of the board for successes too... "Good job, you performed a miracle with that one!"

Megan October 24th, 2008 08:00:00 AM

Megan and Catherine and other vet professionals in this discussion: You raise so many of the issues that resonate with me, as well. Most pet owners will never be able to understand the stresses we experience. How many times did I cry in surgery in my first few years in practice? Lots. How many times do I cry in frustration or grief at work? Maybe every couple of weeks now, but if I worked ER...

I think it's incredibly difficult, however, for pet owners who have lost pets due to the real or perceived negligence of veterinarians to ever regain their trust in the veterinary profession. After listening to these aggrieved Dolittler commenters for months (years?) now, I've come to recognize that.

Do they appear to embody everything we fear and loathe in our adversarial clients? Sometimes, yes. (sorry, guys) But I've also come to respect the complexity of their situation as individuals and I welcome their comments for the ways in which they enhance and advance the discussion--even if it sometimes it makes us mad.

No, I can't always see things their way--I don't think we ever will (not completely anyway) , just as they'll never be able to completely understand our side. But I love this discussion for the ways in which we CAN articulate our differences.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 24th, 2008 08:28:00 AM

Stefani,
My point (and I've said this before here) is that every medical procedure has its risks. These risks can be because of a mistake made by a vet or because of an unexpected but possible reaction to anastethic during a routine procedure. And yes, vets and doctors do make mistakes. They are human, they are not infalliable.

Our perspectives are dramatically different. You had a cat die in a horrible tragic circumstance, following a disastorous negligant action on behalf of the vet and unliscenced tech (I apologize if the details are incorrect) and I'm extremely sorry for your loss. But what happened to Toonces is not the norm. My vet is a caring, competent individual as is his staff. If they weren't I wouldn't trust the life and well-being of some of the most important things in my life to them.

My point in my previous post is that, if in a routine procedure, after I have been properly informed of the risks (informed consent) and my cat still dies, I would expect to pay the bill. I understand that in some cases, there are mistakes made, in which case I would still (begrudgingly) expect to pay the bill (based on the fact that in my life I routinely make mistakes but they have never cost anyone or anything its life). And I also understand in some cases that there are outright negligent actions, in which case I would not pay the bill and I would not return to that vet.

Shannon October 24th, 2008 08:38:00 AM

Just to reassure the vets & other caregivers among you that there ARE decent, grateful clients out here, and back to the original topic of this thread, I have ALWAYS paid my bills, and graciously, even when it meant paying hundreds of dollars for --well, for a dead cat. If I lost one in the kind of unpredictable, "routine" situations described, I would not expect my vet to absorb the cost, though if he offered, I would consider it a great kindness and would accept if I were sure it was offered sincerely. I can ONLY imagine how very hard it would be from his point of view; and such things surely happen more often to him than to me!

At the same time, I would deeply resent paying a bill if I had good reason to think there had been egregious neglect or abuse. Something I don't think would happen where I take my critters now. That does NOT mean I couldn't or wouldn't forgive a real mistake--not the same thing as what some here have described.

The ups and downs of this thread illustrate the problems inherent even in trying to address such a complex subject; especially in trying to summarize it. It really is a case-by-case sort of thing. It's not a good idea for a client to resent or rage against all vets, or even a particular vet in all cases, because of one incident, no matter how painful. In the same way, it's not right for a vet to start out with every client expecting them to be angry, resentful, ignorant or whatever, no matter how much so the last one (or ten) may have been. As a client, I would certainly fear such a vet--would they assume my stress, worry and grief was some kind of hostility directed at them, and react accordingly?

Catherine, I don't think the core issue here is precisely what proportion of clients are horrible, irresponsible and unreasonable. The issue for me would be, how do you treat the ones who are not? Whether or not you think you need a new job, and no matter how much you do care about the animals (and I truly believe that you do care deeply), your adversarial assumptions and clear anger toward clients would scare the bejeezus out of me if I had to deal with you.

My own vet is not my enemy, and I hope he doesn't see me as his. We are both interested in keeping my beloved animals well and happy. He knows LOTS more than I do, and I am grateful (and happy to pay) for his expertise; he understands that I love these animals like they are my family, and thus that if they are hurting or endangered, I am going to be stressed, afraid, unhappy and worried. So I won't be at my best at those times. Humans are animals too, after all.

Judy October 24th, 2008 08:56:00 AM

judy:
i don't see my clients as "the enemy" - i wait until i have dealt with them and their animals before i make any assumptions. i go into a room as blank a slate as possible, because you never know which client is going to say "ok, IMHA - a quote of $1500-2000 for care and an unsure prognosis - let's go for it, i love my pet." people continually surprise me, and i love that.

if you were dealing with me - you wouldn't see the side of me that you describe as "scaring the bejesus out of you". you probably have a hard time believing this given my anger here - but i DAILY receive cards and food and gifts for my care. i treat the clients as they 1) treat me and 2) treat their animals. i don't go into a room with the assumption that someone is a bad owner - EVER. i have given away services on multiple occasions to people who didn't have money because they really loved their animals - and you could see it. i could give you tons of examples.

if you dealt with me, you would see my professional side, not the angry side. and i'm not always this angry. at the moment, i'm most angry about my situation at work. as i said, i worked 20 hours straight on sunday, had a 3.5 hour nap, and then worked another 12 hours. i couldn't practice quality medicine, no matter how much i wanted to do so, people were angry at being kept waiting, despite the perfect legitimacy of triaging, and i felt like a personal failure when one of my patients died, despite me trying my damnedest to figure out why he was vomiting. it was a terrible weekend.

i don't view all clients as horrible and irresponsible - although sometimes in emergency medicine, it's very difficult to remember that there are good clients that vaccinate their animals, care for them deeply, and treat them as a family member. i see SO many clients that are the opposite - with their 2nd parvo puppy that they didn't vaccinate, with their emaciated kidney failure cat that weighs 2 lbs and has been vomiting for months, with their heartworm positive dogs that are dying because they didn't think heartworm was a necessity here in our mosquitos year round temperate zone, with their hit by car dogs that roam the neighborhood, or mauled cats that also roam free...it gets old sometimes putting down animals that look at you with pain-filled eyes and you KNOW that the owners could have easily, easily, EASILY prevented this suffering. but i still love my patients, i still love a great deal of my clients, and i still practice good medicine.

try to remember folks - there are perfectly legitimate reasons why veterinarians are the #2 professionals to commit suicide (and i'm not saying i'm suicidal here, i'm not!).

catherine October 24th, 2008 04:02:00 PM

oh, and i'm not trying to advertise myself - but if you guys are at all interested in reading about my experiences since i graduated - i have a blog as well:

www.returnofthederelict.blogspot.com

maybe it will make those of you that think i'm a terrible angry vet realize otherwise. or maybe it will reinforce your feelings about me, who knows?

it's about my experiences as a vet, but it's also about my personal life too - politics, etc.

catherine October 24th, 2008 04:40:00 PM

Catherine:
I have been reading it for a while now. Today it clicked and I wondered if that was you..
Good blog!

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia October 24th, 2008 05:04:00 PM

Shannon said: And yes, vets and doctors do make mistakes. They are human, they are not infalliable.”

No one argues that vets are not human; however, when things go out of their control, they should come forward, acknowledge their errors, provide a logical explanation, and offer their sympathy and empathy to their grieving clients. Hiding and avoiding communication would only reinforce my suspicion for their wrong-doing.

Catherine: I was expecting your reaction to the PETA organization—it’s a common secret how a lot of vets feel about them. However, the board didn’t believe that PETA is an organization of terrorists, and they reacted to their investigation. They disciplined the vet in question, just a slap on the hand, but that is a lot more than boards usually do!

   May 2007: In response to a complaint from PETA, the Alabama State Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners voted unanimously to submit a letter of concern to Clint Lothrop regarding "patient discharge instructions, timely client accessibility and communication, and [his] assessment of professional language choices."
   June 2008: After learning about PETA's investigation, Morris Animal Foundation launched its own audit of the Auburn kidney transplant laboratory and found "lapses in animal care" and noncompliance with research protocols. As a result, Morris Animal Foundation has vowed not to fund any future projects involving Clinton Lothrop or Michael Tillson and has suspended funding projects at Auburn until it can demonstrate that "animals used in research are not harmed and receive outstanding care …," which the university has not yet been able to do. Furthermore, Morris Animal Foundation has increased its scrutiny of all institutions submitting grants and has instituted periodic audits of the studies that it funds.
I don’t particularly agree with all of PETA’s philosophies—I am not an animal rights activist, but an animal welfare staunch supporter.

Fotini October 24th, 2008 05:29:00 PM

Fotini: I don't think how vets feel about PETA is a secret. Most vets I know are quite vocal in their loathing of the organization. Whether or not the board thinks PETA is a terrorist organization has no bearing on how I feel about them. They are intimately linked with ALF and ELF, as well as Sea Shepherd - all of which are known terrorists that have no problem injuring or killing people and destroying property to get their "message" across.

I would be interested in reading your story however - if you could post it somewhere or direct me to where it is already posted.

I agree 100% with what you said about vets and MDs making mistakes - if I make a mistake that I think affects the outcome of a patient's surgery or life, then I definitely come forward and talk to the owner. I have absolutely zero problem with your stance.

catherine October 24th, 2008 05:50:00 PM

catherine: the connection to PETA on fontini site is because this same particular vet was exposed years earlier for bilking people on experimental canine kidney transplants, Auburn U. was listed on the front page of the USDA site (certainly can't call that terrorist) because of the numerous complaints and inquiries received.

I have only got up to your post Dr. Khuly. None of us are bashing the profession. Stefani has explained that eloquently over & over again. ALL of us with a web site, still patronize and receive medical care for our still living pets. We havn't QUIT or given up! Gosh, I would venture to say if ANYONE of the vets on this list and the supporting veterinary professionals ever had a dog or cat, or gerbil allowed to suffer for a WEEK & INHUMANELY injected with a toxin no better than Drano, you better believe, you would be forever upset, angry, sad, you name it. Come on, sending a pet home UNABLE to urinate after a sugery?? Breaking an elderly cat's jaw?

And as far as being brought up before the board, in my state the only real discipline after 1995, was a vet that hit a HUMAN in the side of the head with a can of soda...she was on "limited licensure". Let's face it, the humane euthanasia LAW has been broken for decades, without so much as a word.

Yes, the "mock" teaching referral facility has REAL LIVE victims and client-owners that care about them.
I get angry. Over and over, I have praised the best of the best of care, the compassionate, the skilled surgeries. But what a SLAP in the face, that my own life-long state and the community of veterinarians, not only "protects" the low-lifes, but had the ordacity to compound the abuse, lies, and intimidation on ALL levels.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 24th, 2008 06:51:00 PM

Megan, I skipped over saying something important. If you can come away from any of us that have received the short end, it is to be ethical, moral, and compassionate to both the animal/pet and the human. There is a vet, at the clinic I go to, that I have seen on several occasions, including stressful ones with Pearl pre-surgery; she always recites "above all do no harm". I think she is saying this to herself, almost unconsciously.

People are forgiving, they are human and realize mistakes are human. If you make one, no matter how scared, upset, or whatever, just come clean---admit it, don't lie to try and coverup, don't display arrogance and intimidation, and you should do fine. if you end up at a place that puts undue pressure on you to "make numbers", leave and find the right place---it exists

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 24th, 2008 07:14:00 PM

Catherine: Here is my site: http://alabamavetboardwatch.110mb.com/New-Asp-inde...

Fotini October 24th, 2008 09:27:00 PM

Catherine, it is obvious you are working your butt off. I know it can be very frustrating to deal with clients whose carelessness has caused their pets illness, and all that is left for you to do is euthanize them. I am pretty sure those of us who have become keenly interested in the topic of quality veterinary care don't fall into that category of owner. Most of us feel an incredible sense of overwhelming guilt for what the VETS did to our pets.

I have to coment though -- with your statement about working 20 hour shifts, and your statement about not being able to provide the best veterinary care under those circumstances -- that your management, who is allowing you to be run into the ground like that, is setting up a circumstance that will increase medical errors. Somewhere you probably realize that and this may be part of why we advocates hit such a nerve with you. That, and the less caring clients you see every day.

In cases of medical errors, systems, or at least management -- not single individuals -- are usually responsible. Take what happened to the Quaid twins. The whole system broke down. Should the nurse who gave the adult strength heparin be held responsible? Well, partly. But then there is the ward that stocked it, without checking. The pharmacist who scripted it out to the unit. And the only people the Quaids are suing is the drug manufacturer (who I think is the least culpable). Not sure I understand that because I think the hospital management is the most culpable, since the series of errors points to a system where life saving checks are either not in place, or not being enforced.

In the case of my cat, I don't blame the 20 or so year old kid who OD'd him. I blame his father. Not because he's the father, or even because he was my cats vet -- but because he is the hospital manager/owner/medical director, and not only did he choose to have his son watch the boarders, but he had no procedure in place to do a review of the patients that were going to be there on a given weekend, and staff the place accordingly. At least if he was going to use his son, he could have made sure he dealt with only healthy boarders.

Fatigue -- long shifts -- has been demonstrated in human medicine to increase the error rate. Your hospital administrators will bear some responsibility (which they undoubtedly will NEVER admit or accept) if you or one of your colleagues makes a "human" mistake facilitated by overwork, fatigue, and stress. It will be an honest mistake on your part if and when it occurs, but not necessarily an unavoidable one. Sometimes -- in fact often -- honest "human" errors are the result of factors that are completely forseeable and avoidable. If I were a client whose pet was affected, and I found out about the long hours/shifts, at a minimum I'd be writing a letter to the editor of the local paper.

You may respond telling me about the shortage of vets and asking me if I wouldn't rather have ER care from a tired vet than no vet at all. That's not a good choice to have to make though, and I'm sure if your practice really used the collective abilities of everyone to come up with a better way, they probably could. Maybe you could bring it up with them, because it can't be a good way for you to live, either.

Maybe the reason I personally feel so impassioned about this stuff is that I am very vulnerable to vets, and always will be. I have -- no lie -- spent nearly $40,000 on vet care in the last 5 years, and it's not like I just had the money lying around. I cashed out a 401k to help pay for Toonces neurological care after his overdose-induced brain damage, and spent a total of around $16,000 related to the brain damage over the remaining 2 years of his life. Prior to that, he'd had Radiocat (before his diabetes dx), and then there were the normal/routine costs of his diabetic care. After he passed I took on end of life care for my mom's two aging dogs, both with chronic diseases that were managed for the better part of a year for each of them. To the tune of a combined total of probably $15k. Then I dealt with surgery for linear foreign body ingestion in my youngest, apparently "pica" cat, ($4k), and there's been $1,000k worth of dentals in the last year. My credit card debt is so high that I have again liquidated part of my remaining retirement savings to . . . give it to vets.

I'm definitely not trying to shut your industry down (if I am I have a funny way of showing it), I'm terribly dependent on vets. A house without at least 2 animals in it is to me, a sterile place I would never want to live. I know I'm going to blame myself if anything happens to my pet in the hands of a vet -- I have to do everything I can to make it as safe as possible. Both personally by being the OTHER kind of annoying client (coming with folders of internet research, getting second opinions, asking about the licensed techs, getting copies of the bloodwork and medical records and wanting to discuss stuff), AND by activity which I hope will contribute to eventual better regulation of, and quality standards in, your field.

Stefani October 25th, 2008 07:48:00 PM

Barbara- I really appreciate your advice. I expect that as I get more comfortable in "doctor shoes", some of my anxiety about causing unintentional harm to a patient will decrease. Someday I'll find the balance between being a careful vet and being a confident one.

"Above all, do no harm" is a great mantra to recite. I have another one from a (human) doctor that I hope to make the foundation of my practice someday- a doctor is first a listener, second a teacher, and only third a healer. Our most important roles have nothing to do with medicine and everything to do with being good, empathetic people. I try to keep that in mind as often as possible.

Megan October 26th, 2008 07:03:00 PM

Megan, I thank you for your kind comment. I have no doubt you are in the midst of every professional's learning curve, feeling "normal pains" that you will overcome and go on to be a fine and worthy holder of your earned title "Dr." You hold those two esteemed mantras close.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 27th, 2008 01:22:00 PM

Wow! What a wonderful, difficult, helpful discussion! What a great website! I found it last night as I desparately searched for help on helping your pet die at home.

One element I have not heard talked about is the relationship between the vet's human clients and the other people in his/her office. They play such a critical, sometimes determinative role in how a client percieves the "caring" level of the vet....from the front desk to the back room techs! If I have had to deal with a prison-level gate-keeper at the front desk, chances are I am going to have problems trusting that this is a place or vet that truly cares about animals and/or is not too burned out to provide the best possible care for my pet.
Carolyn

Carolyn October 27th, 2008 04:03:00 PM

Welcome, Carolyn: Great point. That's something we don't frequently consider. But you're right--it's never "all about us," much though our veterinary egos might lead us to think otherwise.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 28th, 2008 10:15:00 AM

I feel that when a healthy pet dies unexpectedly during a routine anesthetic procedure, owners should not pay. If a vet has so many of these that they cannot absorb the cost, then they need to look hard and long at their protocols and correct what they are doing wrong. A high risk case when the owners are duly informed of a likely adverse outcome, then they should pay.
I sometimes think that some of your posters are shooting all the ducks on the pond just to get one. We have a few bad apples in our profession that need to be dealt with better, but most of us are competant, compassionate and honest. When I see language like "torture" (intentional infliction of pain, discomfort) used to describe colleagues, I am a little more skeptical.
.

Hobson October 30th, 2008 04:22:00 PM

Hobson, I am sorry that you are offended or insulted by my use of words describing a particular situation truthfully. It isn't funny at all, it is horribly sad and outrageous, but the truth nonetheless, and I can't soften or "pretty it up".

None of us claim that there aren't *many* good, kind, and ethical vets---there certainly are, or we would have given up on pet care entirely. But you have to admit, the very bad ones rarely if ever feel any repercussion for their immoral or negligent deeds. And all the more sad, is how the good ones refuse to call them out on it.

You are really offended and insulted by those that are an embarrassment to your profession, surely you aren't by the hurt victims or people courageous enough to speak out about it?

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 30th, 2008 06:25:00 PM

Barbara, I do have to agree with you that the system for weeding out the bad Vets is insufficient. I particularly am distresssed that many of my colleagues do not keep up and just get the minimum of continuing education. It is on the honor system in most states and little or no accountability. My state only requires 30 hours every 2 years and that is not enough (I had over 60 hours last year and read 7 journals a month - wish I could do more).
One big problem is our professions attracts introverts, and most introverts have poor people skills, (bedside manner) and that is the root of most adverse relationships with clients. A lack of self confidence can manifest itself in many ways. I have worked very hard to improve mine, with good results both personally and professionally. Poor communication back and forth betweeen vet and client frequently is the cause of these disasters.
We are all human and make mistakes, how you deal with them is what is important. Honesty without being defensive goes a long way. I have made mistakes and have always been upfront with the client and learn any lesson it can provide so I won't do it again.. I just hope that next time when I make an honest mistake, or when I do everything right but there is a bad outcome it won't end up on someone's website.

Hobson October 31st, 2008 10:02:00 AM

Re ".. I just hope that next time when I make an honest mistake, or when I do everything right but there is a bad outcome it won't end up on someone's website."

I assure you, that's not the case with many of us -- honest mistakes, doing everything right but bad outcome anyway surely doens't describe my "bad vet" experience.

I realize it may be an expected bias to give the benefit of the doubt to our professional cronies and assume that websites about adverse incidents with vets are unjustified, but if you digest the information, you will hopefully see that it's not a case like those you describe.

Stefani October 31st, 2008 12:52:00 PM

Barbara and Stefani, I am not trying to discount or diminish you or your pet's sufferring or stifle your messages.

Hobson October 31st, 2008 04:09:00 PM

Thank you, Hobson. That is appreciated.

Stefani October 31st, 2008 04:35:00 PM

Hobson, Stefani beat me to it, but you directed your comment to me. I am not a yound lady nor a senile old woman. I am mature, not naive, and have 30+ years of veterinary care.

In those 30 years, there have been plenty of booboos, over charges, extra tests, missed diagnoses----but never once did I ever consider filing a complaint with the NH board of VM or Attorney General, or put up a web site!

This has nothing at all to do with education, introverted personality, or miscommunication! Deception and FRAUD for keeping a hopelessly dying pet alive for a week, to benefit young tech STUDENTS is egregious beyond measure. Then killing a pet under the guise of euthanasia with a saturated SALT (KCl) overdose, because the clinic does not possess license for narcotics, goes WAY OVER the TOP!

I am a reasonable person, I can live with or accept mistakes----how many ways can I say the words "hurtful SCAM". And I am not the first nor the last, to have a pet suffer or be deceived in NH.

Again, myself and others with websites like mine, have experienced the WORST in veterinary care, and we do not lump in all the vets in one category.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 31st, 2008 05:48:00 PM

Barbara,

I cannot imagine practicing without contolled substances (narcotics), if you have to use Potassium chloride you should not be doing euthanasias in my opinion. The only reason I can imagine someone trying to practice without them is due to some narcotic diversion or abuse issues. Sorry this happened to Pockets.

Hobson November 3rd, 2008 03:16:00 PM

Hobson, I can't fathom it either, but quite simply, this has gone on "unchecked" in my state for years. Why? I can't answer that either. It is cruel & abusive to animals/pets as well as their owners. If they can't administer the appropriate narcotics or pain relievers they should be doing "out-patient" work only, certainly no bone or tissue surgeries, no "long term treatments of any kind" and definitely NO *euthanasia* (that is mis-use of that term). And to somehow "justify" this abuse in the name of education, is simply outrageous.

Thank you for your acknowledgment. Stef, I, and a few others, only hope to raise awareness to the abuses in veterinary care, not the human error committed by honest mistake.Perhaps in our life-time, we will see ethical, caring professionals such as yourself and those like-minded, say enough to this disgracing & drag on our livelihoods and aid us into ending such behavior.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire November 3rd, 2008 06:02:00 PM

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