“That cynicism you refer to I acquired the day I discovered I was different from little boys.”
This brilliant line, scathingly delivered by Celeste Holme in the classic film, “All About Eve,” is exemplary of sharp-witted 1940’s cinema. It’s also to the point when you consider how female vets might feel when they suspect clients of rejecting their services on the basis of their gender.
Though you may consider it backwards, it’s nonetheless true that a certain portion of our hospital’s clientele refuses to see the “lady vet”—on principle.
Whenever I hear the “lady vet” line (or a similar epithet) delivered, I always wonder if the client has been given cause to shun my services. In most cases the client has never interacted with me. Despite the fact that I’ve been working in this practice as a licensed veterinarian for almost eleven years, some clients continue to reject my services—seemingly (though you can’t ever know for sure) because I’m young(er) and female.
It’s always embarrassing for me to be in the front office when clients ask not to see the “girl vet.” Somehow it doesn’t seem to bother them too much, though. It’s as if they stare right through me—or assume I would understand why I wouldn’t be their favorite vet.
So am I being sensitive? Or is this the work of true sexism?
To be fair, it may be that my perceived youth and inexperience accounts for much of it. A preference for the vet you’ve always seen is always understandable, too. But when clients specifically ask not to see “the woman doctor” or “the new girl” it’s hard not to take it a tad personally.
“That Woman.”
That’s what one client called me yesterday. It was enough to make me wonder whether my feminine transgressions are Clintonesque and somewhat Lewinsky-ish in nature—which got me to thinking…
Should I invest in a pretty Palin-ish pair of specs? A Monica-blue labcoat? If I made my gender more of a feature perhaps I’d feel better about being the shunned one. Or is that just too cynical...?
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Perhaps by coincidence, my least favorite vet experiences have involved women vets. One is a member of the practice I frequent, and I find her approach too conservative. If I have to come back three and four times because we are going to "wait and see" the first two or three, and it's a recurring issue, I'm just going to be irritated. I already know how to treat it, so just treat it already! The other was a woman who was wonderful in her early vet years but became nasty and arrogant when she opened her own practice -- another who refused to listen to me as a client. As a female professional myself, I think sometimes we get defensive when clients don't immediately accept our conclusions as the Word. Instead of listening, we argue or shut down. I'm not speaking of you, but of female professionals generally. But I don't hold a grudge and would not hesitate to see another female vet at any point.
Susan October 26th, 2008 10:36:00 AM
Did the individual who referred to you as "that woman" actually have previous interactions with you, or do they just randomly refer to women strangers that way?
Me, I've had more issues with vets who were also men, but I think it is more of a personality thing, I just happen to have randomly met more gentlemen vets (ha) who had issues.
compcat October 26th, 2008 10:49:00 AM
I think it's a matter of people not expressing themselves terribly well and putting their foot in their mouths while trying to just say, "I'd like to see Vet X, please."
I've dealt with both female and male vets over the years, and actually the only one I had "issues" with was a male. And those "issues" were nothing more than I clicked better with the other vets in that practice. (Pretty lucky if that's the worst issue I ever have with a vet.)
I will admit that I do refer to the female vet at the current practice I use as "the lady vet" because she's relatively new and I can't commit her name to memory to save my life. (And I will totally see her again cause she loves my dog!)
Cindy October 26th, 2008 11:28:00 AM
I should be completely embarrassed and humiliated to admit how gender bias contributed to the demise of "Pocket's Story", but it is true. I have been to both men and women vets and liked them equally. But my "other" had gone to a man for years with his Springer and trusted him implicitly. Over the years, he had sought his second opinion with some of my or "our" dogs---.
When we met "together" on Sunday, with the man vet in charge of Pocket, who dissuaded us jointly to not seek euthanasia, my other was convinced because he was a "highly educated man", that he must be right in his diagnosis and treatment. And sadly, on the other hand, when it came time for the woman wearing the "Scottie pin" to euthnanize her, "I" thought for sure, we had finally gotten an ethical and compassionate "woman" to end it all.
HOW WRONG we both were. How stupid that "gender bias" plays.
My "other" has changed significantly regarding this, with the subsequent treatment that our elderly Sealyham received in her last 18 months, both delivered compassionately and skillfully by two WOMAN vets.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 26th, 2008 12:10:00 PM
Yes, and it's always amazing to me that I can say they same EXACT thing that my male bosses have said but some clients only believe it if it comes out of a man's mouth.
Christine October 26th, 2008 01:08:00 PM
You shouldn't take it personally. Do you really want those close minded people as your client? I wouldn't. Think about how backwards thinking they are about other things in their life if they are that backwards thinking about a female doctor. I wouldn't want them representing my personal clientel :)
Brittany October 26th, 2008 01:35:00 PM
Christine: But is it mostly men clients that display this cynicism?
I wish I could adequately explain in words the utter devastation that occurred that last evening, when my male "other" received those words of Pocket being a hopeless case, just a day and hours from "successful improvement". To the man that loved her, faithfully carried her up to our bed every night, played favorite games/rituals with her, set her on her blanket & pretended to "tuck" her in. Had we been discussing his VW, surely, the vet (mechanic) would have had good reason to worry about 'bodily harm'...there lies the true difference as pets being "property".
And me? How incredibly "stupid" that a woman wearing a Scottie "pin" on a lab coat, meant unspoken comradeship to a breed I loved and cared about for 30 years!
But importantly more than just gender bias, was a huge swing of emotional, mental, and physical detriment contributed and aided the entire scam from start to finish. It wasn't the "male or female" professionals that cared, lost sleep & nourishment, were emotionally attached, or had anything at all....including moral conscience.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 26th, 2008 01:49:00 PM
Barb Albright: is there ANY post you don't somehow relate to your experience with "Pocket?" Dr. Khuly is obviously one of the "good ones" in vet med, and yet you drag your personal story into every post, no matter what the topic. I am very sorry for what has happened to you. You get free advertising for your website through the link in your name. I strongly advise you to seek grief counseling so you do not have to live so angrily. So much energy spent railing against the injustice you have suffered, could be used in a positive manner instead.
As for gender, I have never found a correlation between uterus/ovary status and quality of care. We have clients at our practice who refuse to see anyone except the one male vet, but these are generally the clients who also preferred the (now retired) old-school male vet who had no problem choking fractious animals until they "calmed down."
pook October 26th, 2008 02:26:00 PM
You've written about some clients you've had problems with. Are they all the same "type"? If so you may just have to accept that there is a certain kind of pet owner you just can't get through to.
For example. I've recommended my vet to dozens of people over the years, and the few who don't like him are all the same sort: people who want someone to tell them what to do. My vet tells you the options. He will tell you what he would do, but he won't say "do this" and there are people who want that kind of vet, doctor or mechanic.
Also you may be running into brain freeze. When I first started with my vet, I could never remember his name, and so he became the guy with the blonde hair.
When my vet goes away, he has all sorts of fill ins, men and women, young and old. Frankly I think age is a more telling in who I'm going to like better. Someone my own age (older) is easier to talk to and that may be a factor.
Don't worry about it. If everyone like you, you'd have no personality at all.
Barbara October 26th, 2008 02:50:00 PM
Hello pook! I don't recall ever seeing your "handle". I believe this blog is for comments on how the topic relates to one's personal opinions or experiences. I'm sorry if that offends or gets under your skin---don't read mine!
If you follow the posts, I believe that I contribute to the topic---yesterday's spay topic had no connection or mention to "Pocket"....
It was nice that you added your own angry and unethical comment, about the vet that used "choking" to "calm an animal into submission" , another example from your keyboard, of ethical, compassionate medicine.
And how silly to view anybody's post as a personal attack or vendetta against this blog's author, I'm sure glad Dr. Khuly isn't viewing it that way---nor the majority of subscribers~
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 26th, 2008 03:05:00 PM
i was dealing with an elderly gentleman about 4 months ago. his dog came in with a heart rate of 30. i was very concerned about a specific heart disease to the breed and i discussed with him testing and treatment for this disease. he was extremely dismissive of me, at one point flapping his hand at me and saying, "SHE just wants to run a bunch of expensive tests and then not tell me what is wrong with my dog."
the dog stayed with us the night for monitoring and atropine because the owner REFUSED diagnostics (other than allowing me to check the potassium). in the morning, the rDVM convinced the owner to euthanize the (15 year old) dog. i was prepared with pink juice in hand when the receptionist came and told me that the owner didn't want me to do the euthanasia. i was stunned and crushed - because i had been professional and kind to a man that i thought was hurting at the thought of losing his best and only friend. i couldn't figure out where i had failed in my interpersonal interactions. that was - of course - until the receptionist mentioned that as she left the room he asked, "don't you have ANY male doctors?"
catherine October 26th, 2008 05:15:00 PM
in pook's defense - barbara - he/she is saying what i was trying to say before in the other post - you can't change what happened to pocket. moving on with your life and letting go of the unfairness/injustice you felt was dealt pocket is a part of the healing process. you do seem angry and bitter - and that's no way to live life. then again - it's not MY life, so butt out, right? someday you will have to get over it, or your risk dying bitter and cynical (funny me saying that when i think i risk being bitter and cynical -too. takes one to know one).
catherine October 26th, 2008 05:21:00 PM
My vet is a woman and I respect her as much if not more than any male vet I have ever taken my lot to. As a woman,you didnt take a "special ladies course," you went to the same school as a males and took the same classes. Took the same tests and worked the same internships. Shame on anyone for tarnishing your accomplishments by genderizing it.
Saint Lover October 26th, 2008 05:38:00 PM
You're a woman?????
In my field, being a lady lawyer is considered quite the plus because we all know that women won't represent guilty people or people who are mean to children...
Penny George October 26th, 2008 06:05:00 PM
catherine, Thank you for that "lead". As this blog goes, I have illustrated "gender bias" in a very real, but unfortunate way, in other words, I agree with Dr. Khuly's and some of the others posts in full.
As far as being "bitter & cynical", the "true cynicism", I feel is directed at my/our governmental resources for not upholding the statutes and enforcement of the laws, when the very "power to be" is right there in place. If my pet were the very "first", I could perhaps swallow the "bitter pill", but that is NOT the case here. This exact same scenario has occurred over & over, including the inhumane form of death.
As far as "getting on with my life"? I am doing the very best at that, including raising public awareness. It is what most victims of a "violent crime" do, mine just happens to involve an animal pet. It is far too easy to dismiss a "bitter" person that rants about everything.
Fortunately, I have not become entirely bitter, nor cynical---if that were the case, I could not praise & compliment the veterinary care received prior or post "Pocket".
BTW, I don't view my website as "advertising" either, since I am not soliciting for any renumeration of any kind, including sympathy letters!
moral of story: gender bias is a real issue everywhere, is completely unfounded & ridiculous, both good & bad sides of the issue (as in reverse discrimination)
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 26th, 2008 06:09:00 PM
My favorite vet is female, and young(er). I love her approach to things and she is very "pro-owner". She takes my word for it that my mare actually is lame, even though every time she comes, the horse decides that she is going to be sound that day (Ahhhh!). She knows that I want to be a vet, and so she will randomly show me things or tell me to feel something, explain things really in-depth and besides that, she has helped my mare SO MUCH. I can't thank her enough for that. This is a horse that has spent the past 4 years being lame on and off, and I'm actually riding her again thanks to this wonderful vet, and she has never once told me to "bute and ride", as I had been told by four other very well respected vets (some male, some female). I don't think gender or age matters at all; it should be all about the person and how well they do their job. I know I would be really offended in that situation. I always ask for my vet when I call for an appointment though, mostly because she has seen my horses before and knows what their history is, but she is also a really nice person.
Tasha October 26th, 2008 07:18:00 PM
sorry - what do you mean "lead"?
catherine October 26th, 2008 07:22:00 PM
In your case, I'm curious if you know whether these comments were intended as descriptive ("I don't want that vet b/c of how she held my dog; I don't care about her being a woman, but I can't remember her name, only that she's a woman"), or as a reason why they didn't want you in particular ("I don't want a woman as a vet, regardless of how she holds my dog").
I'm a science teacher and I look younger than I actually am (which is still pretty young) and I've had a couple students blatantly give me grief b/c of my age and/or gender. But on the other hand, I've also had a lot of students think I'm cool b/c I'm young, and I've even had women students tell me outright that they were glad to see a woman teaching their physics course.
zandperl October 26th, 2008 07:48:00 PM
I wonder how many clients are in my situation, actually requiring at least my equine vet to be female, due to an elderly Percheron gelding who is terrified of most men? I have kept the same (female) vet since we moved to Wyoming, due to her skills and outlook compatible with mine, but would have to have at least this horse seen by someone else female if my current practitioner moved.
Maria Shanley October 26th, 2008 09:48:00 PM
Maria: If I had a pet that had gender-specific requirements, be it horse, dog, cat, bunny or otherwise, I would not hesistate to inform my vet practice of that need. If they had a problem with it, I'd be heading elsewhere. I think that a good vet understands that animals can be afraid of a certain gender, and should respect it to ensure that the pet not only gets good care, but isn't scared witless in the process.
Cindy October 27th, 2008 02:32:00 AM
I don't have huge experience with female vets- in Israel the majority of vets are still male.
That said-
On one hand, I tend to prefer non touchy-feely vets, and my new vet (who is female), tends to be of the touchy-feely type (I don't know about other female vets- I don't know them well enough).
On the other hand, Goodman (my new dog) is a bit afraid of men and gets along better with women, so the fact that she is female is actually a plus here.
Xslf October 27th, 2008 06:38:00 AM
I do admit that some of my clients have come to me specifically because their pet refused to be treated by a man: "She just doesn't like men, what can I say?"
I don't tend to hear that line in reverse. It's clear that some people--and their pets--perceive that women will be more caring.
If you've read the statistics in the recent studies of the veterinary profession you'll also know that women's "caring more" tends to translate into "charging less"--something the male establishment is very concerned about when it comes to the economics of veterinary medicine. I wonder if clients also see this difference.
Perhaps that's a subject for another post...
Dr. Patty Khuly October 27th, 2008 07:25:00 AM
I think it depends more on the individual vet. I've had good and bad of both genders. My one requirement is that the vet has to 'get' cats. No, they're not little dogs with sharper claws. I can always tell when a vet isn't comfortable around cats.
2CatMom October 27th, 2008 10:13:00 AM
That sucks.... I'm not surprised to hear it Dr. Patty, but it sucks just the same. This is truly an issue with many professions. On a daily basis I am made to feel my opinion is worth a little less than all the men I work with. I try not to think about it, because it is so discouraging and really, it would suck any motivation from me. So, on a day to day basis to fight this, I work my ass off, make sure I am always the fastest, most competant, punctual, thorough, efficient person I can be in my profession and do my best to never have an excuse. Sometimes this is recognized, sometimes it is not. But in the end I know my worth.
I'm sure you do/feel the same... we just have to persevere.
Incidentally, I have a male Vet now. So far so good. ;)
Creature of Habit October 27th, 2008 11:32:00 AM
Agreed Creature, women often work harder than male counterparts to "prove worthiness", and it should be the men that are brought up to that level by example ;)
Except for the "reverse" situation I previously described , (with lead used in lieu of cue)I have found both men and women to be overall equal in fees charged, and my dogs response to confident but not abrupt or heavy handling.
Perhaps that is because my pets have a male "parent", that engages in play & a bit of light rough-housing that they enjoy.
I have had some rescues, though, that were very fearful of men.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 27th, 2008 12:38:00 PM
Sometime in the last few years, I read a study that correlates gender and self-assessment. Basically, in the context of administering some kind of test, they asked groups of men and women to predict how well they would do on the test; take the test; and then retroactively assess how well they thought they did (without seeing the test results).
The results were that men fairly consistently overestimate their own performance both prospectively and retrospectively, and women fairly consistently underestimate their own performance prospectively and retrospectively.
I will see if I can find that study.
Bottom line, I tend to keep that in mind when dealing with health care providers. Recently, when my youngest cat had to have surgery for linear foreign body (thread! yikes) it had to be done on an ER basis (at his regular vet office but the ER staff were on rather than the regular staff) and there were two vets on duty that night one female and older, the other male and younger.
The female vet told me that one of the two of them would do it. I asked her which of them was more experienced and better at it. She said they were both about the same. Not having the luxury of doing background research in the emergency situation, I very specifically asked her to do the surgery; I had not met the male vet. When I drove home, I looked them up, and she had many more years experience than he, also she had a surgical rotation residency which was not evident on his background. Granted he's been an ER vet for a couple-few years, so he has some experience, but she had significantly more.
She and he probably nonetheless agree that his skills and hers are "about the same" (in fact, she document in the record that she told me this) -- but I'm glad I asked HER to do it.
I'm betting she's the better surgeon.
All other things being equal, I pick the lady vets. So, maybe there is sometimes this works in your favor although you never find out about it.
Stefani October 27th, 2008 12:50:00 PM
Ooooh - Stefani, please find! I want to read it.
To add a little levity, a personal story: I am much smarter than my husband. MUCH - we both agree on this. However, he is overflowing with confidence (no doubt from his mother who thinks he walks on water!) and I can't help but believe that gets him much farther in life. We talk constantly about my lack of confidence, my lack of self-esteem, and my tendency toward self-deprecation to "keep the peace". He on the other hand, will plow ahead into situations and walk out smelling like roses. It's fascinating to us, because at home, he gets away with nothing! ;) I have learned from him to be more confident in who I am and what I've achieved. He has learned to think before acting, though not always. Lol.....
I wonder if your report will show any correlation to family issues (i.e. women raised without a father figure in the home, as in my case), or gender comfort levels. I'm curious!
We definitely learn a lot from each other!!!
Creature of Habit October 27th, 2008 02:18:00 PM
I have met excellent woman vets and excellent men vets. I have met lousy woman vets and even scarier less competent men vets.
gender means nothing to me. skill is the most important. Personality is great as long as it accompanies skill.
Now, having said that, I use a man vet and you couldn't get me to switch for love or money. But that's ALL about trust.
I think the only time I'd tend towards a man was if I was choosing a large animal vet. I don't have a horse anymore and haven't in a long time, but I think it's good just for strength/size but I haven't ever experienced a large animal woman vets, so I am just guessing.
LorriM October 28th, 2008 05:11:00 AM
LorriM: Interesting on the large animal thing. But, guess what? No man OR woman is a match for a 1,000-plus pound animal. I think strength is overrated in large animal medicine (and in orthopedics, too, for which I also frequently hear that brute strength is a tremendous advantage men have over women).
Dr. Patty Khuly October 28th, 2008 11:39:00 AM
As a female professional, I've found that the same people who doubt women also have a hardwired respect for business garb. By dressing in business garb (suits, skirts and blazers, etc) in a field where most men dress business casual, I've found that I can garner the same respect from customers and vendors that my male colleagues garner. (This is also cheaper as I can usually find appropriate business garb at thrift stores cheaper and more easily than I can find business casual garb.)
As a veterinary client, I've recently found myself asking for the male vet in the practice for my almost entirely deaf dog. She can't usually hear me or the female vet, but she can usually hear some of what the male vet says, which makes treatments a little easier for her.
Juli October 28th, 2008 02:41:00 PM
This seems to be similar to what I recall having found before:
http://fie.engrng.pitt.edu/fie2008/papers/1130.pdf...
Interestingly, however, when searching for this, I found other studies that don't necessarily come to the same conclusion. Seems like lots of variables involved. This one related to computational tasks in which groups of men and women were asked to self-assess, stating whether their skills were familiar, proficient, or expert (in that ascending order). Then, they were given a task in which those skills were measured.
The study found:
"The results support what is found in other studies
[2], [3]. Women self reported a lower level of expertise than
men while outperforming men on the lab practical. The
proficient women group outperformed the expert men group,
by 1%, and outperformed the proficient men by 3%. The
familiar user women, outperformed the familiar user men by
16%. "
Stefani October 28th, 2008 04:56:00 PM
I heard that men make better orthopedics because of their strength too...however in my personal experience, the Dr. who fixed my shoulder was a small man and certainly couldn't have had any more strength than I have. In that case, it was ALL about skill since my shoulder was fixed beautifully and has remained so for 20 years, 10 years past the time "they" say it will.
I worked with horses for a long time, all of my youth and young adulthood, and they don't require strength because while I love them, they are not too smart and easily redirected. I would still imagine just having longer arms and more muscle might come in handy when doing some procedures....but I have never had the privileged of observing a woman large animal vet simply because I don't have horses anymore and I never knew a LA vet when I did.
I know that I have a 10.5 lb dachshund and it can take 3 of us to hold her still to do her nails and teeth, so I agree size isn't everything. And my dachshund does an amazing impression of an alligator death roll. pretty funny if I wasn't trying to get something done with her.
LorriM October 28th, 2008 10:34:00 PM
Thanks Stefani... will go read....
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