How about coursework I'd like to see removed? I was flabbergasted to learn how much time students intending to be small animal vets spend on large animal studies and practise (and I'm sure the reverse is true). In my opinion, that time could be put to better use learning more about the species you will actually end up treating, or on the topics you list above. Why can't there be a dual tract, one for large and one for small animal vets, with an extra year, say, if someone wants to be certified to treat both?

Mary Straus October 28th, 2008 11:16:00 AM

Mary: How interesting! While writing this post I was reminded of another one I've been meaning to write on a topic related to the concern you raise. Great minds think alike! Stay tuned...

Dr. Patty Khuly October 28th, 2008 11:33:00 AM

The only problem with Mary's idea (and I do know quite a few vet students who would love to do this!) is that, in my experience, 'most' vet students in my year want to go into large animal-but 80% of practices are small animal.

Dr. Khuly I loved this list. In the middle years of a veterinary degree this rings home. This first point especially since we've recently been saddled with an epidemiology report to write without being given this info!

I think a series of lectures/seminars in partnerships/finances/practise management would be a god-send. I fear talking about the money with clients when I graduate (with the difficult situations that entails) and have yet to be reassured/empowered on that account.

I get taught animal welfare/ethics fairly well, and there's plenty of info on alternative career paths such as government and research. I imagine it would be fairly difficult to actually teach listening and fear 101s but I absolutely agree on their importance.

Sian October 28th, 2008 12:26:00 PM

As a puppy training instructor, I would love vets to have more information on nutrition, home cooked diets and raw diets. That definitely seems to be a week link that I have come across. With all the food scares, perhaps the schools are focusing a bit more on this - unfortunately, some of the old vets can seem to get past what little they learned ages ago.

Tammy Mehmed October 28th, 2008 01:18:00 PM

Wow, Ethics 101 taught by a lawyer probably is more akin to "Liability 101."

About the Morbidity and Mortality rounds -- that sounds very important. Obviously this is done in human medicine, and frankly, I'd like to see vet med join human med in trying to step up standards. This is one of the ways.

How about "Avoiding Common Mistakes?" (They could cover that ligating ureters bit, syringes that look alike but aren't, common midiagnoses, etc).

Stefani October 28th, 2008 02:41:00 PM

I wanted to comment on the tracking large animal vs small animal students.

I went to vet school to be a horse doctor. A lot of that small animal internal medicine stuff was boring to me.

I then worked for a horse vet who was a horrible horrible person.

Now I work in a very high power small animal hospital...and I see a lot of exotics--birds, rodents, things I that were not even a blip on my radar when I was in school.

(Now, I could have lived without all the dairy production medicine stuff--there was no way I was getting into that! Ever!)

When I was in school, I was very in favor of tracking. But 11 years post grad I can say that You Just Never Know What Is Going To Happen. And I'm very glad I "wasted" all that time on that small animal stuff I "would never use"

Plus, our board exams covered EVERYTHING. I had a question about whales on my board. If we did not cover everything in class, none of us would be practicing now because we would not have passed the board! Until that national exam tracks and we get states to do limited types of licencing, I don't think tracking in vet school is a good idea.

(On a side note...I do still ride, and I've considered asking the vet at the barn if I could shadow him on my day off from the small animal biz...I think I could always flop back :)

DrSteggy October 28th, 2008 03:18:00 PM

The more I think about this question the more I wonder if you may come to regret asking it. I think you're going to get a bombardment of responses on this one, Dr. K.

In a city of 750,000 we have ONE avian certified veterinarian. ONE. This is a problem. Of course, this leads to a monopoly situation where he can charge whatever he feels is suitable (which is, of course, outrageous) leading the majority of bird owners to forgo annual exams and even vet visits when their feathered friends are ill. Not only that, he has the luxury of also being extremely unpersonable, because let's face it, where else are we going to go?

Secondly, I echo the sentiments about nutrition. However, rather than go so far as to say I would like vets to accept home cooked and raw diets (let's face it - most never will) I would be happy with simply a realistic course taught from a biologic and reality based standpoint rather than the Hill's Happy View of the world.

Case in point, at work today we received promo material from Hill's, arguing that corn was a valuable source of nutrients (more valuable than meat?) and was no more likely to cause an allergy than any other grain (well should they be eating grains in the first place.. and seriously, what study are they quoting that is comparison testing allergic responses to EVERY single grain?). They also claim that it is a "myth" that by-products are bad. After all, they say, vitamin E is a by-product of some processes. Flax oil, by definition, is a by-product. (Do they think we're all in third grade? Honestly...) Conveniently, they provided Webster's definition of the word "by-product" and failed to provide AAFCO's, which any food crazy such as a few of us here will tell you is where the truth really lies.

Lastly, my rep finished by arguing against Orijen kibble by stating "no grain? Well, they have cornsilk in there, and there's no AAFCO definition for cornsilk, so who knows WHAT'S in there?!" And no, she was sadly NOT kidding. That's her argument against a (in my humble opinion, anyways...) one of the best foods available, and a food that outsells hers 20 to 1 on a bad day, at least in our location.

I would be overjoyed to see the fox out of the henhouse. A complete separation of veterinary nutrition and food sales, for starters. Allow pet stores to carry prescription diets, and require veterinary permission for sales. This at least removes the conflict of interest, and would, in my opinion, open many vets eyes to the reality that is pet food. Seriously, vets in my area are still recommending Iams and Pedigree as their #2 and #3 choices, presumably so that in comparison Hill's continues to appear "premium" in comparison. I choose to believe that they can't possibly believe these are "premium" brands... or healthy, or their client's best choices for optimal health. I refuse to believe this because I refuse to believe that someone who could get through the hell of veterinary college could honestly read that label and NOT see something at least slightly unsettling about ingredients like "meat by-products" "animal fat" and "peanut hulls."

Ok, off my soapbox. In answer to your question, I guess what I really could have said was:

What do I want vet schools to teach vets? The TRUTH. Across the board.

THAT would make this pet owner VERY happy. Kudos to you, Dr. K, and others like you, who seek the truth out for yourselves!! Even though our opinions sometimes differ, at least I know it's because you've done your research and believe what you're saying, not simply because it's the propaganda you were sold somewhere... and that I can take, no matter what the topic. Your cynicism at drug company shindigs is remarkably refreshing. :O) But that's a whole OTHER can of worms, isn't it?

Kim October 28th, 2008 05:46:00 PM

I think you have covered it all! I wonder how many that enter vet school, already knew as an undergrad, that is what they wanted? Perhaps, instead of jamming some of these topics on top of the curriculum, it would be appropriate in some form in undergrad studies.

I love this blog; I sincerely believe it is balanced between educating the non-professional,a peek into viewpoints & insights; as well as benefitting the veterinary medical (all levels) by 'listening' to all the comments from us pet/breeder/enthusiasts on the other side of the exam table.

People are passionate about their ideals, opinions, topics of interest, and I enjoy when others post & share, whether I agree wholeheartedly or not, and hopefully every now & then, someone benefits from my opinion, too.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire October 28th, 2008 07:24:00 PM

I agree with Kim, at least a nutrition course not sponsored by a food company.

Marie October 28th, 2008 08:45:00 PM

Re: "Case in point, at work today we received promo material from Hill's, arguing that corn was a valuable source of nutrients (more valuable than meat?) and was no more likely to cause an allergy than any other grain (well should they be eating grains in the first place.. and . . . ."

Kim, I totally agree. The pet food companies should not be underwriting the "nutrition" curriculum. And, as for Hills specifically -- on the feline diabetes message board, it seems to me that an alarmingly high percentage of cats there were eating Hills food when they became diabetic. I think dry food in general is too high carb for cats (not biologically appropriate) but anectdotally, it seems to me Hills is even worse than most -- and the sad thing is, these cat owners think they are buying premium, good food. Mine was on Hills when he was dx'd, that happy bag with all the dancing vegetables and grains on it. I cringe when I think about that.

Stefani October 28th, 2008 09:05:00 PM

If I never had to learn another thing about cows, it would be too soon.

... or maybe that's just tomorrow's ruminant GI disorders exam talking. Will post a more thoughtful reply post-exam!

Megan October 28th, 2008 10:54:00 PM

Megan: I, for one, am pleased that I received all the bovine info I did. If t weren't for them, I wouldn't be able to extrapolate all these ruminant basics to my beloved goats. I mean, how else would I know exactly how to perform a CMT or carve out a foot abscess? ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly October 29th, 2008 07:15:00 AM

Hello, neat blog and great entry. I agree with the part about tracking - I started in bovine medicine but ended up in small animal practice. And I've found that knowledge about all species gives me a lot of cred as a veterinarian in situations other than practice.

I don't recall anything in school about animal welfare, animal rights or ethics. "Deontology" was the only related course we had, and it sucked badly. I graduated in 2000, and had to do a lot of reading to catch up on the animal rights movement, just because I felt that a good part of the progressive public had moved way beyond the philosophical stance we adopted as graduating and practicing vets.

Finally, my education in nutrition was very poor and confusing. We moved from the basics of nutrition right into pet-food company nutrition, which now appears deliberately designed to create a false sense of confidence. I am usually at a loss at what to recommend when people request non-veterinary brands, and since my cats have done very well on IAMS for 12 and 14 years so far (the weight control kind), I tend to recommend it. Maybe I shouldn't be? I have no idea. I do tend to talk an awful lot to clients about the basic concept of not feeding too much, and definitely not cheap brands. My clients tend to be conservative and not very well-off, so for some it's very hard to get to convert to our house brand (which doesn't even seem to be all that appetising).
I would like to know what people generally recommend, though I'm from Canada and maybe we don't have all the same brands or philosophies.

brebis noire October 29th, 2008 01:03:00 PM

In response to the Canadian brand plug, my dog brand plug changes based on the situation... but my general overall plug tends to be for Acana or Orijen (both grain free Canadian brands made by champion pet foods in Alberta). As for the $$ question, even though your bag of Iams may be $12 and my bag of Acana/Orijen are $19.99/$20.00 respectively, you're feeding 1-1 1/2 cups of Iams... I'm feeding 1/3-1/2 cups of Acana/Orijen. All of our (admittedly totally non-scientific completely anecdotal) studies have shown that the grain free varieties of foods for cats (Orijen, Acana, Core, Go!, Evo, Legacy, Instinct, etc) actually cost less in the long run. It tends to swing the same for dogs, although the difference is not as great... some brands merely break even, or cost just a wee bit more.

My recommendation to you is to start with www.dogaware.com, and then read, read, read. "See Spot Live Longer" is a good one, as is the information provided on Champion's website under the heading "Orijen White Pages" which essentially explains their ingredients decisions and philosophies. Any questions about it? Give them a call, their customer service, quality control head, AND their nutritionist are all available to speak with you. Gotta love a company with transparency. :O)

Ok, shameless plug finished. For the record, I have no stake in the company. We DO sell the product in our store... so I suppose that makes me as guilty as the vets who recommend Hill's. ;O)

Kim October 29th, 2008 01:43:00 PM

I have to add one more comment (surprise!)

As a canadian, I am seriously bothered that our vets are not taught at least the basics regarding animal welfare and ethics.

Here I thought the lack of nutrition training was the biggest travesty... I was sadly mistaken.

Kim October 29th, 2008 01:46:00 PM

thanks Kim, for the dogaware site, I will take a good look. I've had people in the past make wild claims about IAMS (about how bad it is), which makes me nervous, but honestly, my own personal experience with it is pretty positive. (I recommend feeding only 1/2 to 2/3 cup of food for cats - any more than that and they will be overweight, unless they're VERY active and outdoorsy types).

And there are so many new pet food companies out there that it's hard to keep track. I've talked with breeders who recently tried out new brands that were highly touted by personable salespeople, and their animals ended up with kidney stones very rapidly (I'm thinking about melamine and China when I hear that). I live in a rural area as well, so if it's not in the pet food store, vet's. coop or grocery store, or getting delivered directly at low cost, people won't buy it.
I have a hard enough time getting people off Whiskas, which to me is the no. 1 cause of bladder stones (totally anecdotal, but I'd say that at least 7 out of 10 cases of bladder stones that I see in my practice can be traced to Whiskas - but maybe it's because that's the most popular grocery store brand around here.)

brebis noire October 29th, 2008 02:05:00 PM

Hello Dr. Patty,

Excellent topic! I work for the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) and we are working on ways to help veterinary students transition from school to practice. Since May, we have developed mentoring guidelines www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/MentoringGuidelines.pdf and we have enhanced our student website http://student.aahanet.org/eweb/.

Jason Merrihew October 29th, 2008 02:33:00 PM

Ok, with the admission that this has become WAY off topic, this will be my final post on the topic (I'm sure Dr. K will broach the subject of nutrition again in the future and allow all us nuts to comment to our heart's content).

First, let me say kudos on getting people to at least upswing from Whiskas to Iams. I do agree that it's an improvement. However, it's kind of like saying Subway is better than Taco Bell. There are still far better options out there, and both brands named are what I would consider kitty "fast food."

To put it into perspective, Iams adult is only 368kcal/cup while Orijen is 540kcal/cup (85% coming from fat and protein and only 15% carbohydrate). Also, if you look at the top 6 ingredients of each food, Iams is listed: chicken, chicken by-product meal, corn meal, corn grits, chicken meal, dried beet pulp. Only two of those ingredients are, by my standards, acceptable. Orijen, on the other hand, lists deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat.

They also certify all of their protein sources ethoxyquin free. You see, if you want to preserve your food with ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT, but you don't want to put it on the label, you simply purchase meat meals that are ALREADY preserved. You are then NOT required to list the preservative because YOU didn't add it. Sneaky buggers.

Iams, Hill's, and Royal Canin are just a few of the companies who refuse to say whether their meals are preserved (which, as you can imagine, pretty much assures you that they are... otherwise, why deny a good thing?). Hill's has gone so far as to actually try to make it illegal to say that your protein sources are preservative free to even the playing field. Also, in the info we received that I referred to earlier, they actually DEFENDED the use of BHA/BHT in pet foods, claiming that these things were declared safe by the FDA for use in human foods. What they DON'T admit is that they are allowed in human foods in much smaller quantities, and it is generally accepted that humans are not ingesting these chemicals each and every day, unlike dogs and cats who, when fed artificially preserved food don't EVER get a break from the onslaught of chemicals.

I also have to agree with the earlier post regarding Hill's and the corrolation to diabeties. I would also add, however, hyperthyroidism, allergies, and an increasing number of gastrointestinal disorders.

Kim October 29th, 2008 04:46:00 PM

I think that one of the major reasons that vets continue to use Hills and brands like it is because of their prescription diet lines - whereas they may be fine with an owner feeding the brands discussed here to their healthy pets, what about when the pet develops common conditions like kidney or liver disease, food allergies, bladder stones, or heart disease? Case in point - one owner brought her 16 year-old renal failure cat in for boarding, and brought along his Wellness Core food, after we had specifically told her the cat needed to be on a restricted protein diet. Instead, she had gone to the pet store and taken the first recommendation of the sales clerk, ending up with the worst possible food for her pet's condition - 50% protein. As far as I know, brands like Hills, Purina, and Royal Canin are the only ones with diets specifically formulated for health conditions, so it's natural that a vet would reach one of those when a patient requires an alternate diet.

My clinic recommends Hills, Pro Plan, Iams, and Eukanuba. I feed my cat Wellness Core, which he adores - I swear that after I changed him to it his coat turned a few shades brighter and he started with the night crazies again. But if he developed kidney disease, I would switch him to k/d. Anyway, I agree that vets need unbiased education, but there also needs to be unbiased research conducted on pet food - there are more and more brands popping up every day, and right now only the major labels have the "studies" behind their claims.

beth October 29th, 2008 07:11:00 PM

ok, so I lied...

While Core certainly was not the best choice for this cat, most likely neither was hill's K/D.

Almost every study (including one by IAMS and one by Waltham Purina) done in the last 20 years have shown that dogs and cats on moderate protein diets have a higher survival rate than those on restricted protein diets IN RENAL FAILURE. That's right, the dogs eating 34% protein lived LONGER than those eating 18% protein (incidentally, the level of hill's canine k/d).

Quite frankly, regardless of what condition my pet was diagnosed with, nothing could persuade me to feed these diets. How can an antiquated theory that has turned out to be false (it's phosphorus that's important, NOT protein) and a food full of chemical preservatives and additives be better for any animal that has a medical condition?

These additives are processed by the liver and kidneys, so to give a liver or kidney function impaired animal a food that is going to stress their organs further... I'm sorry, but this goes against simple common sense.

There are home made diets available for almost every condition you've listed. In addition, when these companies do their "comparison" testing, which is how they tell if their product is in fact increasing survival rates, they don't divulge what product they're testing against. Do you think they're testing against Wellness? Or Solid Gold? Or Natural Balance? Or Nature's Variety? No, I think it's more likely they're testing against No Name or Whiskas or Ol' Roy, etc. OF COURSE the mortality rates are going to be lower. But the science itself is what is flawed.

Until these diets are fully tested in proper fashion, using double blind, third party testing procedures, I don't buy the snake oil. Sorry.

Kim October 29th, 2008 07:25:00 PM

Classes I wish we had (or had more of):

-ethics (including animal welfare issues and business ethics)
-exotics (we get a single elective course, and the teaching hospital doesn't see exotics)
-nutrition (although we get more than most schools- an intro course, small animal and large animal advanced electives, and a rotation)
-more pre-surgical preparation (we have lectures on knots and instruments, but the actual lab work only involved what we would need to know for spays/neuters... I feel deficient in my suture patterns especially)
-classes about specific uses of dogs and their particular medical needs (agility, field work, therapy, etc)
-basic animal first aid training
-more behavior! We only get one week on small animal behavior, and the poor large animal people get nothing.
-more anatomy, integrated into our more clinical lectures (we had orthopedic anatomy during first semester first year, and are getting orthopedic disorders first semester third year- I don't remember what or where the medial coronoid process is!!)

Classes I'd kick out:

-biochemistry (it's already a prereq to get into vet school- having to memorize Krebs cycle one more time STILL won't make it relevant to practice)
-epidemiology (I get why we need to know about sensitivity and specificity, but the rest of the course was more like an MPH class)

I do appreciate having a working knowledge of all species- I would feel really limited as a vet if I had a species-specific license. It would be a like a cardiologist only learning about hearts- so much in vet med is interconnected between species, and comparative medicine helps you gain a better understand of each species.

Megan October 29th, 2008 10:45:00 PM

Since we've digressed a little to the topic of nutrition:

Can anyone tell me what chemical it is that has been implicated in the link between feeding cats canned food and hyperthyroidism?

And are there ANY companies out there that don't use that chemical for canning? (or maybe that's a dumb question since the pet food recall taught us that the vast majority of pet food is canned at MENU plants regardless of the manufacturer -- I believe this includes many of the better brands mentioned here. I know it includes Wellness and Wysong. It doesn't include Merrick but my gang can't all eat Merrick for some reason).

I believe high quality canned is best from many perspectives, but I'm very concerned about this chemical.

Stefani October 30th, 2008 05:19:00 PM

This one is a bit sketchy..

Supposedly the link has been to flip-top cans with the white backing on the top and inside.

Unfortunately, once again the actual can manufacturer and foods studied have not been released, and even the study details are impossible to get ahold of (at least for a layperson such as myself - Dr. K, by all means, if you can get this info, I would be forever grateful - kim.helstein @ gmail.com).

I personally haven't seen anything yet that has convinced me of the connection. I'm getting FAR more cats in who are hyperthyroid who are eating Hill's/Iams/Nutro/Whiskas/Eukanuba/ dry food. Perhaps the DVMs on the list can give their opinions on their clients dietary habits vs. hyperthyroidism (with the understanding, of course, that we all realize that these types of comparisons are completely anecdotal without any serious statistical data to back them up).

That being said, we have more than one cat... so we feed the large non-lift-up cans for the most part, although more and more brands are switching to the lift-up kind.

A note about canned foods and Menu Foods. It could be worse. The main point is to ensure that your company controls its own ingredients, and that all of those ingredients are from North America. If the company won't say that they are, guess what... they AREN'T. That being said, there are many brands out there who are touting the fact that they are NOT canned by Menu. Fromm and Weruva are two of them. Guess what? They're both canned in ASIA. Better? I thought not.

DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING.

And honestly, how anyone could defend Hill's, Royal Canin, Iams or Nutro after the Menu Foods fiasco... is just beyond me. Call them right now and ask them where their ingredients come from. Ask them if all of their ingredients come from this continent. I don't know what they'll tell you, but I do know it won't be YES. :O(

Kim October 30th, 2008 06:54:00 PM

I think the chemical they they're examining is bisphenol A (the same chemical that caused warnings to avoid Nalgene-type bottles). The chemical is part of the lining that keeps the cans from rusting- not sure if it's used in human canned foods as well as pet foods or not.

Another theory suggests that, because hyperthyroidism has also been associated with eating fish-flavored canned foods, that there is some sort of reaction between the BPA and fish protein- or, that fish are concentrating BPA from the environment, and our cats concentrate BPA from fish. Scary stuff.

Megan October 30th, 2008 06:57:00 PM

I know that the trend now is to try and link hyperthyroidism with environmental and/or nutritional contaminations due to various chemicals, but the problem is, that hypothesis will likely never be proven conclusively - the same way that human breast cancer links with environmental contamination will never be proven. Which chemicals, exactly, are harmful (the mind boggles)? In which amounts? What about the effects on genes? etc. It's simply too much information, too many variables to be tested, too many possibilities - not to mention very little political and scientific will to undertake such studies. (And think about who they would be doing the studies on...We don't need more of such studies, imho.)

What about a link between hyperthyroidism and (lack of) vitamin D? All these indoor cats in relatively northern places who get limited lighting for years on end must somehow be deficient compared to their desert ancestors...

What about a link simply between advanced age and thyroid malfunction? Or lack of purposeful exercise? What if there's some mysterious micronutrient X present in rodents that our indoor cats don't get access to? What about the fact that there are far more cats living to an advanced age than there ever were? I don't see many cats under the age of 10 who develop hyperthyroidism.

It's not that I wish to denigrate any kind of environmental contamination theories; in fact, I'm a committed environmentalist. I just don't want to be jumping to unsupported conclusions on the basis of my own anti-chemical additive biases.

I wish I could feed my indoor cats and my barn cats with the best possible food without additives; sometimes I even suspect that the barn cats get the best deal, as they can always supplement their dry food with juicy prey.

But the fact is, cats are living longer today than they ever were, and the pet food industry has greatly facilitated that.

When I evaluate pet food, I do it in a pretty basic and immediate way: I look for a shiny healthy coat, less stinky and abundant stool, vim and vigour, desire to play, and better body condition. I'm not going to start alarming clients with theories about how the food they are feeding their young cats might, in 13 or 14 years, be the cause of a thyroid condition.

brebis noire October 30th, 2008 08:43:00 PM

Speaking of ethics--I'm a second year vet students and earlier this week I became aware (I'll omit the details, but yes, I'm absolutely sure) that one of my classmates cheated on an exam. What I found especially distressing was that said classmate didn't go out of her way to hide it, giving me the impression that she thinks everyone does it.

Is she right? Or is she just one bad egg? Well, someone helped her to cheat, so that would make it at least two bad eggs... How pervasive is this? Any other vets/vet students want to comment? Because I'm really quite horrified to think that these people will one day treat patients.

witness October 30th, 2008 10:53:00 PM

Oh, and as for requiring all students to know basic large and small animal medicine, I can think of several reasons why this is important. The obvious one is to pass boards. But also in the interest of public health--even if you're going to go on to do strictly small animal med, you still need to be able to recognize anthrax in a cow, or avian influenza in a pet bird, etc. And don't forget, we need veterinary pathologists--there's already a shortage, and if you added an extra year onto path residencies for the to learn everything about large animals there would be even fewer.

A number of schools allow some small degree of specialization in the clinical period anyway--certain blocks are required for everyone, but you choose your concentration.

witness October 30th, 2008 11:05:00 PM

Yes please to more exotics and behaviour.

Sian October 31st, 2008 04:46:00 AM

One such program Gary Winnick has helped to support by a grant from the Gary Winnick Family Foundation is the Jewish Federation’s Holy Land Democracy Project.

Gary Winnick February 18th, 2009 09:50:07 PM

Speaking of ethics--I'm a second year fit students again earlier this moment I became bright (I'll avoid the details, but yes, I'm certainly sure) that individual of my classmates cheated on an exam. What I make active especially grievous was that said blocker didn't workout out of her scheme to adumbrate it, giving me the opinion that skirt thinks everyone does it.

Is spring chicken right? Or is gal fitting only super egg? Well, someone helped her to cheat, inasmuch as that would go ahead stable at least two unrivaled eggs... How everywhere is this? Any single vets/vet students wish to comment? Because I'm positively ultra horrified to reckon on that these public leave lone life span mirth patients.

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Speaking of ethics--I'm a second year fit students again earlier this moment I became bright (I'll avoid the details, but yes, I'm certainly sure) that individual of my classmates cheated on an exam. What I make active especially grievous was that said blocker didn't workout out of her scheme to adumbrate it, giving me the opinion that skirt thinks everyone does it.

Is spring chicken right? Or is gal fitting only super egg? Well, someone helped her to cheat, inasmuch as that would go ahead stable at least two unrivaled eggs... How everywhere is this? Any single vets/vet students wish to comment? Because I'm positively ultra horrified to reckon on that these public leave lone life span mirth patients.

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