"I’ve long wondered how day care services and boarding facilities manage to keep dogs from maiming one another."

I worked at a doggy daycare for about six months. We all received training about how to handle potentially dangerous situations from a behaviorist, and anytime we were on the floor with the dogs we had to carry citronella spray (like this stuff- http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=507) in case of emergency. I only ever used it once, ironically on two housemates who were being boarded overnight together.

You do develop a sixth sense about when the dogs start getting a little too crazy or when there is tension. The vast majority of situations can be diffused by a distraction- clapping or calling a name. There are also those superstitious times (just before a storm, or during a full moon) that you know you need to be even more on guard that usual.

We did have separate small dog/big dog rooms, but there are always those dogs that break the rules- the little guys who play too rough for the other little dogs, and the big dogs who can't handle the wild youngsters in the big dog group. So it was really more of a gentle players/rough players breakdown.

Doggy daycare can be risky, but I think the benefits outweigh the risks for most dogs. It's not for every dog, of course. My dog hated daycare, so it wouldn't be worth it to bring her. But for those crazy hyperactive boxers who will destroy the house without an outlet for their energy, or those separation anxiety dogs who tear themselves apart if they're left alone, doggy daycare is a lifesaver.

Megan November 20th, 2008 09:32:29 AM

My vet office goes out of their way to schedule appointments so there is only one animal in the waiting room at a time, and if there is an overlap, there are two areas in which to wait, so you can go to one side or the other (ostensibly labeled "dogs" and "cats" but I just automatically go to the other area, regardless of what is with me).

Georg November 20th, 2008 10:09:37 AM

You focus on the "responsible" behavior of the hospital after the fact. But why would you not understand how an owner could say, "afterwards" is not the time to be responsible?

I find it difficult to believe if the dogs were properly supervised or correct procedures in place, the attack could not have been either prevented or stopped before it became fatal.

I wonder if your default position of seeing the business as "responsible" and the clients as blaming (unreasonably, apparently, in your view) would be different if it were not a veterinary business.

I think this is a situation that is QUITE different than the biting incident in your waiting room, which I believe your hospital had no responsibility for. There, the owner was with his pet, and should have been under the owners control.

In the case of Doggy Day Care, the owner had ceded that control to the staff there, and was not present. Therefore, the responsibility for controlling the dogs was the Day Care Staff's.

How can you hold the OWNER responsible for his dogs behavior in your client when the owner is with the dog, but NOT hold the day care responsible for the dog's behavior when the owner is NOT there and has entered into a business contract with SAID daycare to take on such ressponsibility for hte day?

I too, if I were the owner, would be pissed off and YES, I would hold the business responsible.

Stefani November 20th, 2008 10:12:20 AM

PS --

Let's try to imagine that this was a children's day care facility. One child beat the other to death. The business apologizes profusely.

Would our response be - "what more could anyone ask?"

Stefani November 20th, 2008 10:18:12 AM

In over 10 years, we've never had any incidents in the waiting room, possibly because we are extremely paranoid, and likely because if there's any possible danger, we ask people to wait in their car or outside on the lawn with their dog - usually it's the owners themselves who take the initiative and either walk their dog outside or wait in the car. We don't mind taking the extra few moments to go out and call them when it's time for their appointment. Funny about ringworm. I just caught it for the second time several weeks ago. What I don't understand is how the owner and her kid had been with the cat for weeks and never caught it, while it only took me a few moments of contact to transfer some spores to my forehead. They returned with kitty for the spay a few days ago, and both were still free of ringworm.

brebis noire November 20th, 2008 10:23:16 AM

Stefani: The facility is being held responsible. They're paying. They're taking the blame. They're changing their policies. What more should they do? Just asking.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 20th, 2008 10:40:29 AM

Stefani, where do you get off jumping down Dr. Khuly's throat about what she said? There is a huge difference in a dog day care and a child day care. Dogs come equipped with teeth that can damage (and kill) other dogs. Children (generally) cannot do that much damage, so quickly, with just their bare hands. Fights between kids do happen, every day, just as with dogs. The only way to prevent them 100% of the time is to never let any interactions happen. That's a ridiculous plan. The world is full of risk. We risk getting hurt just by inviting others (of any species) into our lives. Dr. k. was bringing to her reader's attention a story that could remind people to ask what the policies are at a day care, and why that's an important question. She wasn't trying to piss you off personally, so please calm down.

Kate November 20th, 2008 11:05:49 AM

We all love our pets and we would all be devastated if this happened to our dog or cat. As much as we love them, dogs and cats are physically different and behave differently than humans. Kids fight in day cares and schools all the time. However, they don’t have sharp teeth or the natural behavioral instincts of dogs (like going to the throat for submission during a fight or tussle). Adults are usually able to break up fights between children before any serious injuries or fatalities occur. I feel really bad for this poor dog and his owners. I couldn’t imagine what my wife and I would do if something similar happened to our beloved feline. However, the veterinary staff is hurting too. They are paying the price of this tragedy (emotionally, negative publicity and monetarily). I commend them for their honesty and transparency through this ordeal. I really don’t know what more they could realistically do.

Jason November 20th, 2008 11:43:17 AM

Dr. Khuly, I'm not sure what else they can do at this point, but I most certainly believe that blame is warranted where responsibility lies.

Kate, I'm not jumping down Dr. Khuly's throat, and I'm not pissed off. I'm being challenging as usual.

Particularly the implication that the owners are playing an [un]warranted "blame game."

One can take responsibility for something after the fact, but nonetheless still be to blame. It's called negligence.

It's a good sign to be sorry. Bodes well for future change. But sorry and taking steps to correct doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't be held to account. It's a situation in which I believe blame is warranted, from the information I have to go on.

Stefani November 20th, 2008 12:03:44 PM

Stefani, do you have information other than the newspaper? According to the article: "The technician in charge of the day care that day was only 5 or 6 feet away when the fight broke out, Tollon said. She immediately jumped into the fray and was bitten while trying to rescue Little Bro. Tollon said that since the incident, he has made a few changes. Now, the smaller dogs are kept separate from the larger dogs and there is a technician in charge of each group. But Tollon said he's not sure that would have prevented the fight. Dog fights, he said, can flare up quickly even among dogs that normally play well together. Little Bro and the other two had played well together for several months before the fight, he said."

Jason November 20th, 2008 12:35:27 PM

No I did not read the newspaper article. Didn't notice the link. Thanks. I still don't blame the owners for their position, tho.

Stefani November 20th, 2008 01:00:18 PM

"I still don't blame the owners for their position, tho."

I'm betting the owners signed a release form acknowledging that there are inherent risks associated with allowing dogs contact to one another. I too would be horrified if this happened to my dog, but also would have to admit that I allowed her to participate in a knowingly risky situation. It would be like suing a ski resort if you broke your leg one your way down the slopes. I think the clinic took all appropriate precautions and wouldn't hold them responsible.

Megan November 20th, 2008 01:33:25 PM

I worked at a doggy day care for about 2 weeks last year (a large chain of them,) and it was an accident waiting to happen.  Sure, they temperament tested the dogs, and kept them separated by size, but it never felt like a safe environment.  They were supposed to have one person in each run with no more than 15 dogs, but there were a couple times they decided to stick me with supervising two runs at a time.  If a fight were to break out, we had squirt bottles and a hose to break it up.  Like a hose would help if a "real" dog fight were to happen.  I pretty quickly decided that not only was it a place that I wouldn't want to work, but that I would never take my dogs to that kind of place.  

Linnea November 20th, 2008 01:49:05 PM

I don't blame the owners for their position. I do feel that going to the news media is a low blow that's only warranted when the clients don't get treated properly.

It's possible that it took going to the media to resolve this issue but I doubt it given what I know about this hospital (AAHA certified, which means a basic set of policies is in place, and the fact that they immediately opted for the [very] expensive board-certified emergency level of care).

What I know about the owners also makes me infer that they are being unreasonable: ""The kennel/doggy day care business is a cash cow … that only requires a business license," Strickland said. "There is no oversight."

I would disagree. AAHA, at the very least, provides some oversight in this case.

And Stefani: Iknow you're jus being typically confrontational. I 'get' you and where you're coming from but it's hard to expect everyone to understand your hard-line challenging approach.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 20th, 2008 02:10:54 PM

I worked for about a month at a very responsible doggy daycare. All dogs were dogs being trained or had been trained by the owner of the facility, had to be spayed/neutered and were heavily tested with different groups to see where they worked best. It wasn't a matter of big dogs and little dogs separated it was far more than that. Often an owner was asked to bring their dog on a certain day because he/she had a certain play group that often came on that day. Extremely bouncy young labs for instance that mouth everything were often put with far more patient dogs that also like to mouth-play.

Nevertheless there was at least one minor injury (cut ear) while I was there but it was a matter of a rough play session but an actual dog fight.

Although anything can happen at a dog park/doggy daycare if run properly and the right dogs are included/excluded it can work and presents great health benefits.

Katrina November 20th, 2008 03:08:55 PM

Does AAHA have any regulations overseeing "day care, boarding, or grooming"? I'm curious. A lot of clinics offer a seperated grooming or boarding area, often run under different ownership, but partners in some way. Never heard of day care offered at a clinic around here. The agility school I attended evenings with different dogs offered day care and I was tempted for a time, but then really looked around and thought it too risky, no matter how dogs were seperated (or not). What would be tempting for activity, especially utilized in the cities, are "dog walkers" that will only take a few at a time, and really get to know their "clients".I'm probably a wimp, but would not frequent dog parks either. When a dog fight breaks out in a "group", it almost never involves 2 with a bunch of "onlookers"...I think it is just risky all the way around.

Barbara "Pocket's Story from NH" November 20th, 2008 04:37:13 PM

I don't know how much AAHA certification means.

The place where my cat was OD's by the son of his vet -- an unlicensed, unsupervised, unqualified individual -- was AAHA cert, and still is. They acknowledged that at the time they had NOT ONE solitary LVT. Which means that not only my pet, but EVERY pet patient left there over weekends in the care of "techs" was being -- contrary to state regs -- cared for by unlicensed, unsupervised, unqualified individuals (if they were performning duties that by state reg require either license or supervision or both, which admin of insulin was considered).

I get the impression that AAHA comes in and does inspections where they generally inspect premises, and do sample records checks, and I don't think they get into the kinds of practice management and safety issues that would really mean something in terms of quality.

I remind myself that vet hospitals pay to be AAHA, so they have a disincentive to tighten requirements. That practice I went to had the AAHA tape running when you were on hold, and I fell for it hook line and sinker thinking it meant something. Bleh.

Stefani November 20th, 2008 05:05:14 PM

At the boarding kennel where Goodman went through training they let the dogs play in small groups (2-4 dogs) in fenced areas, where the dogs where matched to each other, and staff members supervising.

And yes, with all that, one time I visited one dog attempted to attack another dog- but the staff person there was quick to separate them, so no harm was done.

As for separating the big guys from the little ones- sometimes I wish we had that in the dog park I go to. Goodman is a 66lb black dog, all muscle- but he will try to avoid any conflict and simply walk away.

Today a tiny Yorki was growling at him and chasing him around the park (not in a nice way- trying to attack Goodman). I had to go over and shoo it away. My complaint to the owner of the Yorki and ask him to please make sure his dog doesn't bully mine, no matter how small the Yorki is and no matter how large my dog is pretty much fell on deaf ears- after all, it's cute when a little Yorki bullies a dog many times his size. Sigh.

I really hope that little brat won't learn the hard way. It's not it's fault that he is uncivilized. 

Xslf November 20th, 2008 05:13:37 PM

AAHA is the only organization that accredits animal hospitals throughout the U.S. and Canada. AAHA-accredited hospitals voluntarily choose to be evaluated on 900 standards in the following areas: quality of care, diagnostic & pharmacy, management, medical records, and facility. Although there are some standards regarding kenels in the clinic, we do not accredit day care facilities(the AKC specializes in that area). Full disclosure, I work for AAHA.

Jason November 20th, 2008 05:59:01 PM

I don't keep up with a lot of trends, so I've only heard of dog parks. But I don't know where any are, and what the rules are at these dog parks, so I wouldn't go until I checked it out to make sure each dog was leashed at all times.

But this is the first time I've heard of dog day care. Based on Dr. Dolittler's story and some from the comments, I don't think I'd ever use a doggie day care if they allow dogs to intermingle freely, or even semi-freely depending on size. The first thing that I thought of was I'm surprised there hasn't been more fights, and even deaths.

My sweetie dog loved people, but hated other animals. And she was strong; she broke an "unbreakable collar"! I found out about choke collars from a former coworker that was training police dogs, and he said her breed could handle choke collars if used correctly. Even though I was fairly strong at the time, it took a few wrestling matches for me to become leader of the pack, and a few weeks on the choke collar before she'd follow my commands on a walk. Then we walked by a dog in a fenced yard that was even bigger than her. All our training went down the tubes, and they were both looking like they were about to figure out the cyclone fence wasn't that high. I was pulling her away by her collar when she tried to bite me (being in survival mode), so I reacted by punching her (yea I felt bad afterwards, but it was a heated moment). It stunned her enough so that I could drag her away far enough that she calmed down. She was less than 100lbs, and I'm 5' 10" and exercised frequently at that time. I was out of breath and exhausted by the time I got her away.

I wish I would have known what this guy teaches about breaking up dog fights back then: http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

When we get another dog, after debating on whether it'll be an outside dog or in/out dog with a collar-powered doggie-door, we'll do the old school routine. If the dog will be left unattended for too long, then if we can't bring it with us, we'll either arrange for someone the dog knows to tend to it a few times a day, or use a kennel (last resort) that lets the dogs out at least once a day in a 'run' all by themselves.

Shreela November 20th, 2008 06:18:29 PM

re dog parks-

Shreela- you wrote:

"I checked it out to make sure each dog was leashed at all times"

Actually, dog parks are usually off-leash parks. For us city dwellers with no yards, this is basicly the only place are dogs can be off-leash, run around and interact with each other.

I do avoid peak hours (where there can be more than 20 dogs present), and prefer times with less dogs around.

(Wow, this editor is acting up on me, insisting on using a huge font- I really hope this comment comes through with a decent font)

Xslf November 20th, 2008 06:33:55 PM

Jason, I didn't think that AAHA did any accreditation of doggie day care...it really isn't within the scope of veterinary care or "hospital/clinic". The AKC does NOT regulate or inspect, nor have rules regarding doggy day care or any type of dog training school, dog park, or boarding/grooming facility.

Barbara "Pocket's Story from NH" November 20th, 2008 10:38:48 PM

Jason, there is no way in heck your organization adequately assesses quality of care, or my cat would have still had his brains the last 2 years of his life. AAHA no longer impresses me and never will, and I will scream it from the rooftops. That tape recorded message your organization gives members to play FOOLED ME into trusting people I never should have trusted. When I reported it, your organization required them to rewrite their drug protocols. Period. The letter I got on my second inquiry was curt. AAHA is a marketing tool.

Stefani November 20th, 2008 11:14:44 PM

My one dog, a 60# mix, does not like to be chased or mouthed by other dogs and my other dog is a little 12# blind dog who just gets knocked over and run over by others so I choose to avoid dog parks and I would never put them in 'day care'. And if by some idiotic reason I did, and say it was a very responsible place, if something happened then I would say that I would still have had a role in it.....for choosing to take my dogs there. The facility does have a major portion of the responsibility but they can only do so much before, during and after a fight. I think that a lot of people who use day care are those who work and can't exercise their dogs and I am sure there are lazy people who just depend on others. I have no idea about either of the owners of the dogs described in the blog above but all it takes is one wild and crazy dog to start something, even if that one does not finish it. I didn't really see anything that indicated if it was known what started the fight but is it possible that the Welsh Terrier had any part in it? There is some assumed risk with these places and if you don't want your dog to ever end up injured or dead then you should just not take them there.

Jessica November 20th, 2008 11:56:33 PM

Dogs are built to kill things quickly, even each other. Kids aren't. Dogs are also sexually mature "adults" at a few months old.

And despite little kids not really being able to easily kill eachother... one kid could take a sharp pencil and kill another student in a second... faster than any adult could intervene. Who is at fault and who could be successfully sued may or may not be the same thing in any of these cases.

Christopher Landauer November 21st, 2008 12:03:45 AM

Jason "AAHA is a marketing tool." I wholeheartedly agree with Stefani--a fancy trademark! http://alabamavetboardwatch.110MB.com

Fotini November 21st, 2008 01:07:30 AM

I have a fonder appreciation of AAHA than some of you, perhaps because the AAHA hospitals I worked at in Philadelphia really were among the better practices. The same is true of my current location in Miami, where very few practices are accredited and where the vast majority of hospitals would flunk the AAHA standard test in a minute.

Sure, AAHA is used as a marketing tool. (So is having a vet that writes for The Miami Herald, for that matter, or advertising that you use a CO2 laser in surgery.) That's no reason to disparage the organization. That's just part of what it does.

I would like every practice to conform to AAHA standards. I wish ours did.  

Do I think AAHA accreditation is a panacea for all the ways in which animal medicine can go wrong? Of course not. But it's better than just a start when it comes to enforcing standards of care in vet medicine. In fact, it's the only organization that's busy setting the standards  ALL of you have called for in the past.

I would think that you would recognize at least this point, even if all the AAHA places you attended in the past left you cold.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 21st, 2008 07:59:23 AM

Jessica: Ditto on the personal responsibility aspect of this situation. If I were ever stupid enough to allow my French bulldog bully into a dog park or day care facility with big dogs around I'd deserve the stitching up and near-death experience. Our dogs can't know any better. It's up to us to protect them.

But there's another side: Some people just don't get it. They don't see their dog's behavior as stressful to other dogs. Why else would we all have cause to complain about owners who let their little monsters off leash in the park? These dogs should be screened and separated, dismissed if they must be, or otherwise kept safe. Clearly, not all day care facilities are as careful as they should be (given some of the above comments).

Dr. Patty Khuly November 21st, 2008 08:05:07 AM

Aside from AAHA, the only other organization I know of that claims to hold vet clinics to some sort of standard is Protect the Pets. All you have to do to join PtP is pay the membership fee and claim to adhere to their ethics code. At least AAHA conducts on-site inspections.

Megan November 21st, 2008 08:15:19 AM

Megan: That's interesting. I didn't know there was a membership available for the organization (though I know of it, of course) I wonder how the funds are used. Thanks for always keeping me abreast of these things.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 21st, 2008 09:08:38 AM

After the fact, they behaved extremely responsibly, and that's good. It doesn't automatically give them a free pass on the fact that the event happened at all. These changes that they've made since--was it impossible, or inconceivable, for them to have put these policies in place beforehand, without such tragic incident? It's very clear, Dr. Khuly, that you think it's completely outrageous for the dead dog's owners not be completely mollified by the after-the-fact responsibility. That's just not the way it works. After-the-fact responsibility is good and may represent a step in the right direction, but it doesn't wipe away the loss the owners of the dead dog have suffered, or the pain and fear that the dead dog suffered. Also, I note, though I probably shouldn't bother, that we're getting the predictable stories about Nasty Bully Little Dogs. Anything bad happens between a big dog and a little dog, it must have been the fault of the Nasty Bully Little Dog. No evidence is necessary, beyond the fact that there's a little dog involved. And I can't help but wonder if hearing not one too many, but about a thousand too many, comments like that, is playing a role in the dead dog's owners' failure to be mollified by after-the-fact responsibility.

Lis November 21st, 2008 09:44:38 AM

What does one have to do to have paragraph breaks in one's text here?

Lis November 21st, 2008 09:45:56 AM

Lis: Sorry about the formatting thing. Working on it. I'm using Firefox and it's working fine but it seems other browsers are having issues.

As to your comment: I would expect them to be angry. I would expect them to lobby the hospital for changes. But I don't think it's fair to excoriate the hospital in front of the media. That's my big beef. I think it's over the top, to say the least. IF the hospital is doing its best--even if it's after the fact--it seems unreasonable to bring the media into it. I just don't know what they stand to gain by flooding the airwaves with their anger. If they really have a larger case against the hospital and want to be compensated for their dog's death or achieve larger, industry-wide changes, they should seek justice in a court of law or through regulatory channels, IMO. It won't help much to demonize one hospital.

You're right, though, people greive differently. But it seems to me that these owners are simply lashing out wherever they can. It doesn't seem rational--and I can't expect them, in their grief, to be rational, I guess.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 21st, 2008 10:06:10 AM

Dr. Khuly, in the heat of the moment, I probably would do the same thing if I were them, although I'm sure that doesn't surprise anyone here.

If pet owners had other RESPONSIVE avenues to take grievances, perhaps fewer of us would try to "go public." But the sad fact is that as some of your posters have pointed out, there are no organizations doing anything about veterinary quality, vet boards do nothing of consequence. As you know, lawsuits are too expensive for people to file when they will get nothing in return.

All we have is the media as a method of trying to do something about accountability.

If you'd like to see fewer pet owners take this option, then work on establishing a responsive system.

Stefani November 21st, 2008 10:47:35 AM

Stefani: That's a point I can't argue with.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 21st, 2008 10:56:28 AM

I dunno - what other avenues do the owners of the dead dog have to make situations like this known / preventable to others? I'm not being snarky, I'm truly asking. If there is no regulartory body to appeal to, or a database for incidents, are the owners of the terrier supposed to just suck up their grief and hope it doesn't happen again to someone else? I think dog owners take their dogs into these places based on recommendations and the misguided notion that all of these facilities are "professional". They assume protections are always in place and they assume "bad dogs" will be prevented from hurting other dogs. But, situations like this Tampa example are bound to happen and MUST be known, otherwise they will continue to happen. The thoughts of what that poor dog went through make me shake. If this happened to my dog, knowing what she means to me - I would pursue every avenue I could to make sure it didn't happen to other dogs.

Creature of Habit November 21st, 2008 12:30:20 PM

One more thing - to the people addressing child day care: my close friend was stabbed in the eye at daycare when she was 4 1/2 by another little girl (with those dull, round-tip "child scissors"). The teacher had to pry the kid off of her. She obviously lost the eye. Nothing was wrong with the other kid (mentally), they weren't even talking. She said she "just wanted to do it" and my friend was closest. No lawsuits happened (but this was 30 years ago). But I guess Christopher is right - kids and animals, heck, everyone - is unpredictable. Ok, I'm gonna go hide. With my dog.

Creature of Habit November 21st, 2008 12:40:49 PM

I think that people are being unrealistic if they think this kind of thing would never happen again. I think it is important to let it be known if only to avoid the false notion 'that it could never happen in a well run facility' It is not a matter of IF but WHEN....even if all appropriate measures are put in place. Unless you are keeping dogs completely seperate from each other (which would be totally opposite the purpose of doggie daycare) you are going to have negative interactions. Not that I really remember this but my mother had used a Co-op type preschool in which parents have to be there with there kids to help out. Not that you can't still have issues but maybe this would be a solution for some people and there pets so that there are more eyes watching and involvment. They could even be expected to have to go through a class to get instructions on dog behavior so they could better handle themselves, their dogs, and others around them. Maybe there wouldn't be any figths then......but I doubt it.

Jessica November 21st, 2008 04:14:41 PM

Dr. Khuly, as far as the courts are concerned, our pets are worth only their "fair market value"--about what it costs to acquire a "replacement" from the local shelter. The pet's pain and suffering, the owner's grief--these don't count in court. The courts will not order major changes over what they regard as minor property damage. The media, OTOH, if you connect in the right way with the right media figures, MAY care about these things, and may be successful in conveying the story to the public in such a way that the PUBLIC demands changes. And if the public is stirred up enough, politicians may respond, and actually MAKE changes. As long as the court regards our pets as merely property, a well-directed media campaign has far more chance of producing real change than a lawsuit. Going to court over these things is a mug's game.

Lis November 21st, 2008 04:26:57 PM

Dr. Khuly, taking responsibility in the aftermath of a fatal accident is by definition too late. As a victim of a negligent vet, who lied about my pet's misdiagnosis (which also happened to have fatal consequences, although not directly), I can tell you that having the responsible party being honest about the mistakes makes an anormous difference! However, the public has the right to know about the accident in question, as it has the right to know about the honesty of the parties responsible, and the improvement measures, if any. An informed consumer is a better consumer. If nothing else the knowledge raises awareness of the safety issues. The fact that the vet hospital took resposibility does not mean that what happened should be kept hush-hush. When an individual decides to earn a living by selling services to the public, it is fair game that what happens at the business is public knowledge, to which the public has every right. These service providers should expect transperency and be ready to pay the consequences of their missteps. In this case, the accident was probably waiting to happen. If the protocol was improved afterwards, common sense suggests that it wasn't optimal to begin with, which led to the fatal attack. The public has the right to know that the people in charge had to learn the hard way, as opposed to had enough know-how and sense to have proper preventive measures in place before anything tragic happened (by that I mean equipment, trained personnel, etc.).

Natalie Kramer November 21st, 2008 05:20:41 PM

Lis: You couldn't have said it any better! I agree with you 110 percent. CHANGES to the archaic law WILL HAPPEN--the public pressure is ON and NO AVMA lobbists will prevent them from happening--politicians are smart enough to realize that pet guardians contribute enormously to the US economy, and they (politicians) want their constituents' votes and financial support!!!! http://alabamavetboardwatch.110MB.com

Fotini November 21st, 2008 08:28:43 PM

www.stempy.net

Natalie - I wholeheartedly concur - very well said!

Now, with that said - Holy crap! People are leaving their dogs at facilities to interact with other dogs without the direct supervision of their pack leader? Again, HOLY CRAP! I had no idea...

I have my own challenges on occasion keeping peace in our pack ( 3 Shih Tzu, 1 Lhasa Apso, 1 Irish Setter) and - make no mistake - I am the pack leader. Strangely enough, any altercations between our dogs have never involved the Irish Setter. Nevertheless, she is kept in separate quarters when we are not home.

I'm curious - for those of you that know - are the majority of dogs that are brought to doggie day care from 'single' dog homes? Maybe I'm naive, but I just cannot imagine any person that has multiple dogs taking their dogs to doggie day care - because they already know what could happen. Certain dogs may get along swimmingly the majority of the time - but I have an intervention scar or two myself to prove that the majority of the time is not all of the time.

I remember reading about a story that happened at one of the popular 'pet stuff' stores - seems as though one owner lost control of their big dog in the store's parking lot. The big dog came over unprovoked and fatally attacked a much, much smaller dog who had just arrived in the store's parking lot - leashed - with their owner. The owner did not see the big dog coming until it was too late - a horrific story as I recall.

While I certainly believe the facility was negligent, it is very troubling to me that a person would place the dog in that type of situation to begin with. I steer clear of dog parks as well - aren't you just asking for trouble?

For the record, isn't there a story out there right now about an 8 year old boy killing two adults with a gun? Who says kids cannot kill?

Greg Munson November 21st, 2008 09:22:52 PM

Testing the link thing:

In Memory of Stempy Munson

If this worked correctly, this should take you to the website listed at the top of my previous post...

Greg Munson November 21st, 2008 09:47:29 PM

How about looking at this without the context of the DDC attached to a animal clinic? I read the article which did not touch upon details:

1. what was promised for safeguards, if any? 2. what type of liability clause was included, if any? 3. what "sales pitch" was given to choose that facility?

Why is the "victim" often blamed? What was the ratio of human/dog? What training occurred? What tools other than human hands should have been available or utilized?

Is it just as possible this would have been in the newspaper regardless of "where" it happened? Should it have been "kept secret" from the dog-owning public?

And if lots of pet-owners are fearful of the risks for their pets in this situation, perhaps some regulations should be in place, as "licensing" is done for "human daycare"?

And who can argue with Natalie's well thought points?

Barbara "Pocket's Story from NH" November 21st, 2008 09:58:05 PM

I had a 65lb dog for 15 years. He never went to daycare, but I didn't worry about walking him should I encounter a big dog.

Now that I have 4 dachshunds, the largest weighting 15 lbs, I have to say I think about this more. I don't send them to daycare (they'd flunk out anyhow) but I do try and keep them around dogs of similar size. I think that dogs have to be segrigated by size in day care, simply because the type of "doggy" games a 65lb dogs play and the type of games a 15lb dog play are the same, but obviously could unintentionally injure the smaller dog.

It's like letting a 14 yr old go play soccer with a 4 year old....no matter how safe it "seems" just not a good practice.

See, Size DOES matter....<lol>

LorriM November 22nd, 2008 01:11:56 AM

"Now, with that said - Holy crap! People are leaving their dogs at facilities to interact with other dogs without the direct supervision of their pack leader? Again, HOLY CRAP! I had no idea..."

Ironically, the majority of the time, dogs that entered the daycare building with terrible manners (barking, jumping up, being pushy), would almost always knock it off as soon as their owners drove off. They'd be perfectly-mannered all day with us, but as soon as they saw Mom or Dad again, all the bad behavior started right back up.

Pack leader, schmack leader- I think dogs just know who they can take advantage of and who won't put up with it.

Megan November 22nd, 2008 08:26:34 AM

In Memory of Stempy Munson

Megan,

I know of someone like you mentioned - the dog is great whenever mom is not around, but terrible when she is around. The thing is....she is definitely not the pack leader, her dog is. I suspect that is the case as well in the situations you are referring to. I think dogs know they can't take advantage of the pack leader without serious consequences, so the people you are referring to must not be the pack leader in their little pack.

Greg Munson November 22nd, 2008 12:33:33 PM

I left my irish setter dog at Canine Campus in Westminster in Colorado that didn't come home. When I went to pick up my dog they told me that it was dead one morning. They wanted to take care of the dog themselves but I wouldn't let them. They gave me my dog, and I took it to my vet. He had wounds all over him. My vet said he'd been bitten.

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