Here's the link to the DVM Newsmagazine blurb--with their own list of Chihuahua health concerns.

Dr. Patty Khuly December 14th, 2008 10:36:10 AM

I too cringed about the movie and blogged my concerns in October in a post about Pet Background Checks but I didn't get into the nuances like you did.

When people set their hearts on specific breed or to select a designer dog instead of taking the time to research breeds or to go out and visit adoption facilities before picking a companion dog to add to the family I just cringe.

What would happen if people actually took the time to select the right animal for the household?  I believe we would see healthier, happier animals and less abandonment.

My dear friends just rescued a chihuahua mix that was abandoned on the streets adjacent to her health clinic. She is one of the smartest little critters I've met in a while which is in direct contrast to another one belonging to her roomie--who is a neurotic mess.

Great that you list all the health related issues but the behavioral issues are no less of a challenge.

Here are some of the issues I encounter with chihuahuas in my animal behavior practice:

• nervousness and anxiety
• excessive barking
• aggression (usually trained by accident by the owner)
• house training 

Chihuahuas can be extremely loyal but without good breeding, proper socializing, and early training they can exhibit some poor behavior problems.

Ark Lady December 14th, 2008 11:10:22 AM

Agreed. My aunt recently took in a poorly bred pet store Chihuahua. He's absolutely adorable, and unquestionably smart (and that's not just the he's-one-of-us-now bias talking). However, his behavior is atrocious*. The previous owners were pretty clueless, and it shows. Unfortunately, my aunt is just as clueless (if not more so).. but I'm hoping she can be convinced to seek professional assistance with this one. (We are certainly trying.)

* If he were a larger dog, his behavior would have probably landed numerous people in the hospital by now, would certainly have resulted in legal action, and I suspect they would have mandated the destruction of the unfortunate dog some time ago.. he's that bad. I cringe like nobody's business when she laughs about or excuses the behavior just because "nobody bled this time". *facepalm!* The adoption was well-intentioned, but it's a bad match. She's not doing him any favors.

When I was little, our neighbors had a protective Chi approaching his twenties. If I got too close to the fence, he'd poke his head through and gum the heck out of the nearest offending part of my anatomy. He didn't have any teeth, so it didn't hurt, but at four, it scared the living y'know out of me. (Again, the neighbors thought it was funny.)

That said, some of the neatest dogs I've encountered have been Chihuahuas. I'm not trying to knock the breed.. a well-bred, well-socialized Chi can be a wonderful addition to the family. Unfortunately, I suspect that the majority of the movie influx dogs probably aren't going to fall into this category, owing to a combination of poor breeding and owners who don't know what they're getting into. I feel for the dogs, the children, and the medical/boarding/grooming staff on this one. Nobody wins.. (except, sadly, the opportunists who will undoubtedly profit from the mass quantities of purse-sized puppies they'll crank out over the next year or so).

Ramen Connoisseur December 14th, 2008 12:07:00 PM

THANK YOU for this post! This is a timely and cautionary voice of reason, which I hope will strike some receptive ears. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice (and detest) this phenomenon; even here in remote Alaska we saw the Dalmatian surge. I've been dreading the movie adaptation of whatever Katz book is (supposedly) in the works - not just because I detest Katz (who IMO is a complete idiot when it comes to dogs, although it hasn't stopped him from publishing a book about training and behavior), but because I dread what will happen if the Border collie falls into this trap. There will be a surge of shy-sharp dogs going completely insane with boredom and biting the living crap out of anything that moves. IMO a poorly bred Border collie is one of the worst possible combinations: highly active, highly motion sensitive, obsessional dogs with a desire to chase anything moving, grip anything that KEEPS moving, and enough size and strength to do some real damage. Don't get me wrong - I love my Border collies. I wouldn't trade them for anything. But I'm fully cognizant of what a disaster they are in the wrong hands, and how easily poor breeding can produce an animal that is seriously difficult to live with, if not a danger to itself and others. Thank you for making your excellent point where many people can read it.

AKDD December 14th, 2008 01:21:16 PM

While I love a good dog movie, the resulting surge in demand for the particular breed is so awful.  It's so unfair to the dogs.  I'm also wondering if Marley & Me will also bring more poorly-bred Goldies into the world, too. :(

I also think that little dogs have an extra burden when they're overbred - not only do they have all the genetic messes going on from overbreeding - they're LITTLE.  Everything around them is huge and scary to top it all off.  My neighbors had their grand-dog Jack Russell puppy visiting and he got in our yard - he was in a HUGE yard with BIG people trying to help him and was scared to death - I just laid down on the ground and he ran right to me, I am sure because I no longer looked like Godzilla to him.

AKDD - with you on hoping that BC's aren't the next "it" dog.  I had a boyfriend with a BC mix (roadside rescue as a puppy) and bless her heart, she was smart as a whip and SO easily bored and would find things to keep her occupied...  Not always a good thing.  (OK, there was the time she busted open a case of sodas and then carefully arranged each can in her dog bed which was hilarious, but her antics weren't always so cute.)  Fortunately my boyfriend was insanely patient with that dog - I doubt many would have dealt with her boredom as well.

The closest thing to a "designer" dog that our family had was Sandy.  My younger brother INSISTED that whatever dog we got when we came back from overseas MUST be named Sandy, after the dog in Annie.  As my mother said, "With our luck, we will end up with a coal-black Lab named Sandy"...  We ended up with a schauzer/collie mix that actually looked the part for her MovieStar name. :) 

It's still hard for me to wrap my brain around getting a specific breed based on a movie - could be due to the fact that my family has always had wonderful mixed-breeds.  Maybe it's my imagination, but they also just seem to be sturdier - that whole "getting the good stuff from both sides" idea.

(PS, love the new site and the fact that I can actually read the text in the validation box!)

Cindy December 14th, 2008 02:15:01 PM

I wish I had my copy of Nathan Winograd's Redemption handy, because I recall a passage about the fact that the US shelter system actually imports dogs from overseas because many shelters don't have enough volume to justify their current size and staffing levels, and that many (if not most) of those dogs are the Mexican breeds coming to Florida from Puerto Rico (puppy mills).  I hope I have the details right, but that's what my aging brain recalls.

Kind of puts an interesting spin on it, no?

Christopher December 14th, 2008 02:19:10 PM

Winograd has a completely different take, as you might expect:

http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2008/12/no-movies-celebrating-dogs.html

Movies celebrating dogs are a "good thing"...

 

 

EmilyS December 14th, 2008 02:42:53 PM

Great Post of course, it would be nice if at the end or even better during the previews of the movie there was a public service type of advertisement warning about the responsiblity of pet ownership, how the breed featured in the upcoming movie isn't a pet for everyone, etc.. I think even a 30 second spot before and after the film would help, I think it is the least these big movie houses could do - I too remember 101 dalmations, I wonder if just alittle bit of warning or education by Disney could of saved 1001 dalmations ?  I mean really, who better than Disney to make a cute little educational spot on pet ownership or the breed specific  needs  of their film ?  hmmm....

LC December 14th, 2008 04:27:50 PM

I am fortunate to have a delightful Chihuahua named Solomon. He is a black lab in a 6 pound body. After reading this it now makes sense why my vet was carrying him around the office showing him to everyone. I didn't think I would be getting him back.

Wendy aka goatgirl December 14th, 2008 05:36:48 PM

One of the best dogs I've ever met (social, smart, and well-trained) was a Chihuahua named Toby. He was big (about 10 lbs, and his head was in proportion to his body), and I've always been sad that he was such an anomaly in the Chihuahua universe. All the rest I've met, while sometimes being nice and smart, are all under 8 lbs and most often have behavior issues (some worse than others, of course). I was appalled last week when a puppy came in who, I swear, was 3 months old and only weighed 1.1 lbs. It has trouble holding its head up and all the girl who has her kept saying was "Ooo, who's my baby?" in the most icky way. She also mentioned that she couldn't find 'clothes' for such a small pup and wondered if I knew anyone who would sew up a "onesie with a built-in diaper" since the puppy is cold all the time and has so many accidents. It makes me sad/angry/nauseous to know this dog isn't going to have a chance at a 'normal' life.

KateH December 14th, 2008 07:37:20 PM

Agreed, on all points. I grew up with a shy-sharp Cocker, and while she was a loving and lovely dog. She was also a walking, urinating, yapping, landmine; Nerves of purest jello and teeth of lightning speed. She was from the tail end of the "Lady and the Tramp" mal-breeding explosion, and benefited from all the questionable practices that preceded her generation. Since that time, I understand the breed has recovered some, but I'm still wary around Cockers. Fast forward to today, where I do volunteer work at a BC Rescue, and I see the results of poor breeding, and it can be frightening. We *generally* don't get uncontrollable dogs, but sometimes, we crap out. Stock killers, unpredictable biters, blind & deaf merle-merle crosses, and so on. Perhaps the saddest was a big handsome pure-BC lad who looked to be a good companion animal or maybe even a good agility prospect, but who would turn, at random intervals, from 'Mr. Lovebug' to 'savage mincing machine' - no warning, and no discernable medical issues involved - Just poor breeding. He had a short, unhappy, miserable life through no fault of his own - He wanted to love and be loved, but was unsafe to every living thing around him. Katz's book/movie deal fills me with forboding. I hear similar things from friends in Husky Rescues - After "Snow Dogs," there was a surge in turn-ins. Fortunatel, Huskies already have a well-known reputation, so more people, perhaps, thought twice and *didn't* impulse buy.

MaskedMan December 14th, 2008 08:02:43 PM

It's still hard for me to wrap my brain around getting a specific breed based on a movie - could be due to the fact that my family has always had wonderful mixed-breeds.  Maybe it's my imagination, but they also just seem to be sturdier - that whole "getting the good stuff from both sides" idea.

Or, they get the worst from both sides. Or a random mix of good and bad from both sides.

Cross a Lab with a German Shepherd, and you still have to worry about hip displasia. A border collie with an Aussie, and you haven't reduced the risk of Collie Eye Anomaly.

Poodle mixes aren't guaranteed to be non-shedding, either, even if you make up a fancy name and call them "designer breeds."

There's nothing magical about mixed breeds that automatically makes them healthier. Responsible breeding does increase the likelihood of good health--and you don't get "responsible breeding" from people letting their dogs breed randomly. Or from people intentionally breeding mixes to exploit the current fashion for "designer breed" mixes.

Of course, if you get your mixed breed dog as an adult from a shelter, the ones with serious problems that presented in puppyhood won't be there.

Lis December 14th, 2008 08:48:21 PM

This is why I am so glad that my breed, pekingese, are not the most photogenic dogs in the world.   Yeah, I know, my blog is chockful of pics of my peke, but that's because I know what he really looks like!  It is hard to get that perfect black mask face and fuzzy fur to show up in the right way. 

Pekes are in no way a beginner dog - well maybe a transition from cuddly cat owner to dog owner (my husband).  Breeds were bred for certain characteristics and some of those are not compatible with modern lifestyles.

Not everyone should have a chihuahua - a rather aggressive breed.  Not everyone should have a dalmation - a breed in need of lots of exercise from what I'm given to understand.

Breed matching is important!

MLO December 14th, 2008 09:45:07 PM

Ugh, more chihuahuas. I shudder to think. Shivering, nervous, snappy little things whose feet never touch the ground. They are definitely on my and all of my coworkers crap lists due to their aggressive behavior. They make me sad - most of our chihuahua owners have unwittingly trained their dogs to be needy little monsters. I wish, just once, that I'd see someone bring a chihuahua in on a leash, all four feet on the ground, that was trusting and well-socialized and treated like a dog rather than an infant. That being said, my 50-pound mutt, although not aggressive, is just as much of a basket case with her separation anxiety, severe storm phobia, propensity to develop calcium oxalate stones, and multiple mast cell tumors. So much for hybrid vigor!

anna December 14th, 2008 10:31:33 PM

Where are you Anna? I'd be glad to bring my well socialized Chihuahua in on a leash with all four feet on the ground....as long as everyone else can control their unsocialized larger dogs that are trying to eat my dog. That is one reason for picking him up. Where I live Chihuahuas aren't a problem. Not one person has been killed or maimed by one so I save my breed bias for Pit Bulls that have killed and maimed people and livestock almost every day.

Wendy aka goatgirl December 14th, 2008 10:52:34 PM

You almost wish Disney would just stop....IT doesn't have to be specific, stop everything would be fine with me....the dog based movie issues are just one of the many problems created by Disney.

The dalmation issue was seen heavily here in NJ and what a nightmare. The shelters were killing them by the boatloads, and those that did get adopted were neurotic, had terrible skin and allery issues, were high strung, and many were passed from home to home because of a variety of behavior issues. It was one of the saddest things I've witnessed.

We've already seen a Chi explosion that started with the taco bell dog and has really never slowed down. It will of course be worse two months after xmas....

and as a guilty as charged little dog owner, we do tend to let them get away with too much, that we'd never put up with in a large dog. My big dog was very well behaved, and my little ones, well they don't bite and love the vet and people, and love to go for rides in the car, but they bark in the house, have housebreaking issues, don't like to go out if it is cold, dark, raining, loud bugs, etc....won't sleep on the floor...chew everything.....yeah...baaddd dogs. and I love them. But no health issues thank goodness.

LorriM December 15th, 2008 01:31:10 AM

A big dog can hurt a little dog without meaning to, when it's quite sincerely "just playing." Big-dog owners frequently don't get that. If I had a tiny, bringing her into a high-stress environment with big dogs whose temperaments and stress tolerance I didn't know, with "all four feet on the ground" would not be high on my list of things to do. Fortunately Addy is not that tiny--fourteen pounds--but I still keep the leash short and pay attention when walking into the vet's office. And I have no hesitation whatever about picking her up if I feel the situation warrants it--no matter what big-dog owners who can't think beyond the ends of their own noses think about my doing so.

And I've had my share of lectures from big-dog owners who tell me I'm a terrible dog owner for doing that, because, you see, if Addy weighed sixty pounds, I wouldn't be able to manage the situation that way. Well, sorry, folks, but if Addy weighed sixty pounds, I wouldn't be quite so worried about your English Mastiff accidentally stepping on her while he's trying to play!

Lis December 15th, 2008 07:57:15 AM

THANK YOU http://www.taaxx.com

miss ksa December 15th, 2008 09:50:56 AM

THANK YOU

miss ksa December 15th, 2008 09:53:32 AM

Wow, so many "breedist" comments -- I thought we were all animal lovers???

"Not one person has been killed or maimed by one so I save my breed bias for Pit Bulls that have killed and maimed people and livestock almost every day."

"I shudder to think. Shivering, nervous, snappy little things whose feet never touch the ground. They are definitely on my and all of my coworkers crap lists due to their aggressive behavior."

Sad. I have a LOVELY Pit who gets along wonderfully with my sister-in-law's Chi that goes for winter hikes in the Buffalo NY weather in the woods on weekends together, all four feet on the ground. I'm not being facetious when I say that I feel really bad for people who are breed biased in such a way. They are just really missing out.

Sorry, I'm just totally repulsed and disappointed. Generalizing breeds of dogs is NEVER a good thing and benefits no one. I can't say I'm completely surprised though, ignorant and hurtful comments always crawl out of the woodwork whenever these big dog/little dog conversations come up.

Carissa December 15th, 2008 11:17:28 AM

Carissa: I second your comments on the pit bull bashing. It's rare I even have to muzzle my pittie patients. But I will defend some breed profiling when it comes to healthcare settings. Anything that keeps of safer--even if it's a misplaced breedist bias--is a good thing.

Dr. Patty Khuly December 15th, 2008 11:43:07 AM

Wasn't trying to offend anyone - just relating my everyday work experience. I'm sure there are perfectly sweet, well-socialized chihuahuas out there...I've just never met any of them! Bad luck on my part, maybe. And for what it's worth, I didn't develop any of my breed biases (which I think most people have, whether good or bad, whether they realize it or not) until I started working in veterinary clinics and was constanly exposed to a multitude of breeds day in and day out. I've learned to always have a muzzle out and ready when dealing with a husky- or shephered-type dog - they don't always bite, but when they do, they mean it and they don't give a lot of warning. I've learned not to be afraid of pits because most I've ever seen was bouncy and happy to see me, but they tend to be aggressive towards other dogs. I've learned that beagles tend to be dramatic and will vocalize more than others when subjected to the (admittedly, from their view) rude pokes and prods and needle-sticks. Is EVERY single dog from a particular breed guaranteed to act in this manner? No, and we all know that, and anybody would be silly to argue otherwise. And I attribute a lot of the behavior I see, especially aggression, to fear or anxiousness in a veterinary clinic setting, so I know it's not always their fault and they're probably not that way at home. But it doesn't change the fact that all of my coworkers have developed similar biases, as have others I've met that do my type of job. Can't all be coincidence.

anna December 15th, 2008 11:53:52 AM

The person who started this post is educated? Glad I'm not their client. Isn't it a little late in the career to be breed biased?

Maureen December 15th, 2008 01:15:57 PM

Maureen: Breed bias by another name is called "signalment" (yes, that's a medical term). In the same way we're smart to ask our clients about health issues we know certain breeds face when they enter our exam rooms (reference the above list of chihuahua maladies), we're smart if we're aware of their temperamental predispositions.

For example, I will never fail to ask the owner of a French Bulldog puppy how it's going with housebreaking. I know they're notoriously difficult on this issue. Why would a generalization when it comes to a Chihuahua's owner-protectiveness be necessarily a bad thing? I'd be stupid to discount it--and I might get a bite for my misplaced egalitarianism.

I can understand that you might be upset that I singled out Chihuahuas, but next time contribute meaningfully to the discussion and go easy on the personal insults, OK?

Dr. Patty Khuly December 15th, 2008 02:08:48 PM

I must say that I had a great concern when Disney announced the release of "Beverly Hills Chihuahua." As an Organizer of three Dog Clubs with over 300 Members: Just Chihuahuas! http://www.meetup.com/Just-Chihuahuas/about/ Le Petit Chien ..... the small dog! http://www.meetup.com/Le-Petit-Chien/about/ Paw Scouts USA! Greater Philadelphia Pack http://www.meetup.com/Paw-Scouts-USA/about/ My concern turned to the proliferation of genetically defective, unhealthy Chihuahua Puppies that would be churned out by Back Yard Breeders and Puppy Millers. It does seem that these "Unethical Breeders" will jump on every bandwagon that comes along to make a "Buck" without regard for the health and genetic backgrounds of the dogs that they breed. The "Unethical Breeders" are the BIGGEST problem in this this scenario. Disney Studios was very kind to send 200 free tickets to a "Pre Screening" of "Beverly Hills Chihuahua" for my Dog Club Members' enjoyment. I was pleasantly surprised to see that not only the tickets promoted Adoption through local shelters and rescue organizations but this theme also ran through out the movie. A notice was also placed on the screen at the beginning of the film and also at it's conclusion promoting "Adoption." I think that Disney is aware that children's "Pet Themed" movies can result in the proliferation of poorly bred puppies and kittens. With the release of "Beverly Hills Chihuahua" they took a proactive position with the promotion of "Adoption." It is ultimately the responsibility of the Parents to decide if a pet is a "Good Fit" for thier family and whether they have the time and finances to properly care for a pet. It is OUR responsibility to Educate the Public about the downfalls of purchasing a puppies from Back Yard Breeders and Puppy Mills and the rewards of "Adoption." Now on to Breed Biases ............ All dogs can be provoked to bite. There is really no such thing as a "bad breed." Most (if not all) dogs can be properly trained and socialized to be gentle and tolerant. To single out "Chihuahuas" for behavioral problems is not only a fallacy but also irresponsible. A study performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, "analyzed dog bite statistics from the last 20 years and found that the statistics don't show that any breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. The study showed that the most popular large breed dogs at any one time were consistently on the list of breeds that bit fatally. There were a high number of fatal bites from Doberman Pinschers in the 1970s, for example, because Dobermans were very popular at that time and there were more Dobermans around, and because Dobermans' size makes their bites more dangerous. The number of fatal bites from Pit Bulls rose in the 1980s for the same reason, and the number of bites from Rottweilers in the 1990s. The study also noted that there are no reliable statistics for nonfatal dog bites, so there is no way to know how often smaller breeds are biting." It is the owner's responsibility to provide proper training and socialization for their dogs. When a dog is exhibiting behavioral problems, it is due to an uneducated owner using poor techniques when training and socializing their dog. Dog Clubs can provide the proper venue for training and socialization and also Education for their owners. During our Club Meetings, we will have 30+ Chihuahuas and or Toy and Small Breed dogs interacting and playing safely with each other and their owners. My four Chihuahuas well behaved dogs and are welcome everywhere they go, EVEN at their Veterinarian's Office! As a retired Licensed Animal Health Technician, the Chihuahua was never a breed that stood out as a "Bite Hazard." Some of the "Most Revered Breeds" in this country actually have much higher reported bite incidents than the Chihuahua. Now on to Genetic Disorders and Predisposition to Health Problems ..... All Breeds have genetic disorders and a predisposition to health problems. The Chihuahua certainly does not lead the list of breeds with the most problems. According to the Canine Inherited Disorders Data Base http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm "Chihuahua The disorders listed in the first 3 categories below are believed to have an inherited basis, or are known to have a predilection for this breed ("breed predisposition"). This means the disorder occurs more commonly in this breed compared to other breeds, or to the general dog population. Common sense suggests that these are inherited disorders, but for many breeds and many disorders, the studies to determine the mode of inheritance or the frequency in the breed have not been carried out, or are inconclusive. We have listed disorders for which there is a general consensus among those investigating in this field and among veterinary practitioners, that the condition is significant in this breed. Where the mode of inheritance is known, this information is included on the linked disease page. The most popular breeds tend to have the most disorders listed because there is a larger number of dogs affected, and therefore more opportunity to recognize a breed predisposition to a particular disorder. As well, there is likely to be more indiscriminate breeding of these breeds, leading to a higher occurrence of inherited disorders. In less common or newer breeds, there may be no disorders listed or the list of disorders may be quite short, because it can take some time before enough dogs are affected to recognize an inherited condition. The last category lists conditions that have been reported sporadically, and may be inherited in this breed. Most important These disorders are relatively common in this breed, and where possible, efforts are being made to eradicate them. Ask your breeder about these conditions in his or her dogs. These disorders seriously affect the health of your pet and may require medical or surgical intervention. Patellar luxation Other disorders which have an increased incidence in this breed These disorders occur less commonly or are less devastating than those mentioned above. Color dilution alopecia, Corneal dystrophy, Cryptorchidism, Demodicosis, Glaucoma, Hydrocephalus, Keratoconjunctivitis sicca (rare, Methemoglobinemia (very rare), Mitral valve disease, Patent ductus arteriosus, Pattern baldness, Progressive retinal atrophy Pulmonic stenosis" You many very easily avoid these disorders by ONLY acquiring your Chihuahua from a "Reptuable Breeder" that routinely screens their "Breeding Stock" for these Genetic Disorders. Many other breeds carry a greater risk for even more devistating Genetic Disorders. See Canine Inherited Disorders Data Base for more information. http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm Doctor, I ask you to reconsider your biases against the Chihuahua. Do not allow a few misadventures to cloud your judgement of a truly "Wonderful, Intelligent and Loving Breed." Thank You. Susan Pileggi, AHT

Susan Pileggi, AHT December 15th, 2008 02:37:24 PM

it would be nice if at the end or even better during the previews of the movie there was a public service type of advertisement warning about the responsiblity of pet ownership, how the breed featured in the upcoming movie isn't a pet for everyone, etc..

 

There is - a very clear cut one, advising people to NOT rush out and get a Chi, or any other dog breed.

As for rampaging Pit Bulls 'maiming and killing people and livestock every day' - care to back that piece of propagandist bs up with some stats - some verifiable stats? Man, I cannot BELIEVE how many people still drink the HSUS/Peta/Popular Media kool aid, when it comes to breed generalizations.

 

FrogDog Blog

FrogDogz December 15th, 2008 02:40:48 PM

Susan: Respectfully, I singled out Chihuahuas in this post because that is the post's topic. I did not mean to infer that chihuahuas are the only breed with aggressive tendencies (nor do I think anyone who read the entire post could easily arrive at that conclusion).

Every breed has its predispositions and tendencies and to refute such a claim by calling it "breed bias" does a disservice to the work veterinarians have done to help eradicate genetic diseases in specific breeds, which you so eloquently speak of.

Indeed, it does seem like we are in agreement on the Chihuahua, the dangers from backyard breeders and puppymillers and the need for this breed (as with any other) to FIT well with the family who adopts/purchases one.

As to dog bite statistics based on breed, I have yet to see a good study I could trust. The problem with these lies in the reporting of bites. Few small dog bites are ever reported given that most stats for these studies come from ERs and owner/bitee reports--not the best way to get at the truth, especially given that many individuals couldn't identify a pitbull from a lineup.

The information I provide above is based on my personal findings and reflects my failry extensive experience with the breed. I really did not mean to offend.

Dr. Patty Khuly December 15th, 2008 03:20:43 PM

Dr. Patty Khuly, I am in agreement with most of your column today. I too, worked for many years with many different breeds of dogs as a Licenced Animal Health Technician at for a very busy Surgical Referral Practice. I found that I was most vulnerable to dog bites when I made generalizations and drew behavioral conclusions about specific breeds. I too have come across several Chihuahuas with severe behavioral issues, but I have also come across Goldens, Labs and Poodles that would put most bitters to shame. I have not taken offense to your opinions, but just wanted to post another view. Over the years, I have probably seen and worked with more Chihuahuas than many Vets in practice today. I agree that some do have Behavioral Problems, but the majority of them are very "Sweet and Loving" pets. A dog's behavior is generally a reflection of it's owner's understanding of Canine Behavior and thier ability or inability to train and socialize their dogs. Thank you for your informative column. I point to it many times as reference source for my Dog Club Members. Susan Pileggi, AHT

Susan Pileggi, AHT December 15th, 2008 04:08:30 PM

Susan: Agreed. Thanks for your explanation. And a hearty AMEN to making generalizations with certain breeds of usually non-aggressive dogs. The most aggressive patient I ever met--bar none--was a Golden. How 'bout them apples?

Dr. Patty Khuly December 15th, 2008 05:36:39 PM

We've been rescuers/foster-ers for many years and have had a lot of dogs go through this house. I'm a big fan of mutts and big dog mutts are my weakness. We've had several full breed dogs, too. A Norwegian Elkhound (silly people who get cute puppies w/out researching the breed then get mad that the dog barks his head off), a deaf Dalmatian (who also had diabetes insipidus that eventually fried her brain), and a Rottweiler (who is my Service Dog).

Folks need to research the breed before they bring that puppy (or adult) dog home. If a mutt, research the possible genetic roots. Understand the reasons behind that breed(s) genetic design. Bred for herding? High drive. Bred for hunting? The brain is in the nose or eyes. I knew my Rottie needed early socialization so she went everywhere and got to meet all sorts of people with their different voices, skin color, and smells. And folks need to understand the the wee breeds need training just as much, and perhaps more, as the big breeds. Every dog, no matter the size, should be taught manners and basic obedience. Vet techs, groomers, and neighbors would greatly appreciate the dog and the owner more.

At any rate, the reason for my response is this: statistics cannot be taken for what they inititally say. Understand the background for the numbers. Rottweilers, GSDs, Pit Bulls rank high in the reported bite counts because they are the ones bad enough to be reported. If everyone who had been bitten by a Chihuahua, Yorkie, or Min Pin reported it, the statistics would be drastically different. The general public assumes all Rotties and Pits are vicious dogs based on the statistics. I wish the statistics would also include the type of owner of the dog and the dog's level of training. Dog left in the backyard with little human socialization? Dog never introduced to children? Dog who never got even basic obedience training (leash jerking and rib kicking do not count)?

PaulaO December 15th, 2008 05:48:11 PM

Wow I didn't mean to offend anyone either and I think you missed my point. I said "in my area" Chihuahuas aren't a problem but pit bulls are and yes almost every day they do attack a person or another animal. As I am writing this the news is on and once again they are mentioning a pit bull attack. I am very well aware of the fact that there are nice well mannered pit bulls but in my area the majority are not. These dogs are not owned by well educated people that take their dogs to the vet or to obedience class. I was going to sight all the incidences where pit bulls have attacked my neighbors in the last year but then all you responible dog owners would bash me for my breed biases. I'm not talking about you or your dog. But not admitting there is a problem is sticking your head in the sand. So you may be enjoying your well mannered dog but there are many more out there that cause bodily harm to your neighbors whether you admit it or not. Who cares if people want to carry their dog around or dress it up as long as it isn't hurting anyone....ok so maybe a small puncture wound at times. I could almost guarantee that the people that have been attacked by a large dog wished it was by a Chihuahua.

Wendy December 15th, 2008 10:44:17 PM

Wendy,

I don't know from where you hail, but I have lived in NYC, arguably the "pit bull capital of the US" for the breed's popularity here (where almost all shelter dogs are pits and the breed is owned by everyone from thugs in the bronx to Rachel Ray, who uses her pit to promote her new [cruddy] dog food).  Even here, where pits probably outnumber other large breeds 5 to 1, reliable reports of attacks are uncommon, and the majority of pits entering the shelters are scoring high on their temperament tests; they're wonderful dogs, just throwaways or strays.  As someone who has been very exposed to the breed, I believe you are 100% wrong in stating that "there are many more out there that cause bodily harm", and that this statement is just evidence of your bias and "drinking the kool-aid".  As Dr. K said, many people can't even pick a pit bull out of a line-up, and if the majority of pits were biting, believe me, you'd be hearing a LOT more about it, given the pit's popularity. 

On the flip side, one of the nastiest dogs I've worked with in a vet-clinic setting was a Chi.  The owners, when boarding it, were told that the dog would not be walked or handled and they understood why - it was a nasty little beast that attacked anything that came near enough to try to slip a leash on.  We instead carried the dog, in its bed (the only safe way to transport it) to a run every day so it could have some fresh exercise.  I'm not chi-bashing, but pointing out that little dogs are menaces also.  What about the pomeranian that killed an infant, or even the border collie mix in my own community who suffocated a 4 month old infant by laying on it?  Any dog has a potential to be a danger, and little dogs and mixed breeds are no exception.

As they often say, blame the deed, not the breed.  I'm a helluva lot warier around a small dog baring its teeth than I am a grinning, stumpy-tail-wagging rottie.  But then, I know how to read dogs and I can understand the difference between "I want to play" and "I will bite you if you come to close".  Perhaps the public should be more educated about dogs rather than just fed propaganda about "dangerous breeds" that must be banned "for public safety".  I know my kid won't be going up and petting some strange dog just because it's a "friendly" breed, nor will he be left alone with a dog I know because it's a golden.  You own and interact with dogs of all breeds at your own risk.

Shavy December 16th, 2008 12:29:01 AM

I have a 6 year old Chihuahua who is very well-mannered and behaved, so I am absolutely appalled to hear all these other horror stories. Granted, I've met some pretty stupid dog owners and then I can see WHY their Chis turned out that way. Mine was just at the dermatologist's the other day and they did a whole slew of things on her to try to get a diagnosis on her skin problems, including plucking fur around her eyes, skin scraping, popping a small pimple, etc. Basically very painful "procedures". At the end of it, the dermatologist and his assistant were amazed and commented on how well-behaved she is, and I guess hinting that this is a rare sight to them.

Another vet was examining her, looking at her teeth, doing a bunch of things to her, and the first thing he said was, "You socialized her very well."

Third vet...performed the same procedure as the vet described above this and she told me straight up that she really expected her to lash out and that this quietness and submissiveness felt wrong to her.

Conclusion? I blame the owners for babying their little Chis and not socializing them enough. I don't think this movie will make things any better.

As for picking the dog up, I'm not afraid to say that I *will* pick mine up if I feel she is in a potentially dangerous situation. If I'm taking her for a walk and our city has an on-leash law, and there is a big dog running full speed at us UNLEASHED, my first instinct is to stop and pick her up. I don't care if the owner is offended or not - I have a 5lb dog. I do not know how your off-leash dog is going to react to mine. I do not know if he is going to maul her to death, thinking she's a cat or maybe even squirrel (similar colors). My friend has a Chi who, upon first meeting a GSD, the latter picked him up, bit down, and shook him. She managed to punch the dog right between the eyes to get her own dog back, but that dog is absolutely traumatized. He would not let her anywhere near him for weeks. The GSD owner? She stood by and watched all this without helping at all. It's situations like this that makes us small dog owners wary, especially the off-leash situation. If I felt comfortable for her to romp around off-leash with big dogs, I would bring her to the dog park.

Lisa December 16th, 2008 08:06:35 AM

I meant to say...

If I felt comfortable enough for her to romp around off-leash with big dogs without being hurt in one way or another, I would bring her to the dog park, not take her for a walk around the neighborhood with dogs who are supposed to be on leash at all times. I just don't see why some people get offended and insist, "Oh, my dog's very friendly, don't worry." Sorry, you might know that, but I do not. And if my dog gets bit, which side is going to be hurt by it?

I reiterate that I won't hesitate to pick my dog up in potentially dangerous situations. Otherwise, she is always on all fours and walking right beside me.

Lisa December 16th, 2008 08:11:12 AM

I have been training dogs for over thirty years and CAN pick a pit bull out of a line-up. The dogs they are showing on the news are most definitely pit bulls. The dogs that are biting my neighbors and not letting go ARE pit bulls. I have had some delightful pit bulls in my classes so I do know there are many out there. But the point is these dogs are going to classes and being trained and socialized. Most in my area are not. City dogs as in NYC are generally more socialized than country dogs so my situation can be vastly different than yours. It matters very little to the person attacked if it is the dog or the owners fault. I hate that argument. My whole point was why worry about Chihuahuas? They can't cause much harm. Get up in arms about dogs that can...and whether you believe me or not, do. And drinking the Kool-Aid? I am not talking about a grinning stump-tail wagging rottie, I am talking about a growling,chasing, grabbing on, biting and shaking dog. If you are more afraid of a 5 pound growling dog then you must be in the kool-aid.

Wendy December 16th, 2008 01:36:31 PM

Wendy, in all fairness, what you're describing has nothing at all to do with "breed" other than to say that some PEOPLE choose dogs of a certain size or shape in the hopes of raising them to behave more like a weapon than a member of society. When people improperly raise Labrador Retrievers, they can (and have, and do) become vicious. It's just that the PR for Labs is better, making them more likely to be acquired by someone who is looking for a family member, not a replacement for his small junk...if you know what I mean. ;-)

Even tiny dogs have killed people. Just because I don't know of a Chihuahua having done so, doesn't mean it has never happened or that it will never happened. I'm sure the owners of the Yorkshire Terrier, Pomeranian, and Miniature Dachshunds who've killed people were all quite sure they 'couldn't do much damage.'

Like you, I trained dogs for 30 years. (And no, I'm not confusing that for having owned and trained my own dogs for 30 years.) :-) I specialized in aggression, and I must point out that I've never been unsuccessful in rehabilitating an aggressive dog of any breed, size, shape, or original breed purpose. ...And aggressive dogs are a virtual panoply, in that regard.

But I was also a canine legislation consultant and dog bite researcher for many years. What I found (aside from egregiously-skewed media reporting of dog bites) was even the basic premise of breed-based biases were unfounded.

Even a grossly conservative estimate puts the number of 'pit bulls' having killed a person, at less than 0.00002% of the U.S. population. At least 99.9% of all dogs, including 'pit bulls', will never be involved in an attack at any time in their lives. I don't know what the actions of such a tiny percentage of the 'pit bull' population say about the vast majority, but it certainly isn't anything relevant, especially when we see that the factors common to 'pit bull' bites/attacks are the same for all other biting/attacking dogs. Poorly trained, poorly socialized, inadequately supervised dogs (of any size, shape, or original breed purpose) make up the overwhelming majority of dogs that bite unprovoked.

While 'pit bulls' were practically unheard of in the fatality statistics prior to the 1980's (when they became popular for training as guardians), even now, typically 80% or more of dog-bite-injury-related human fatalities (with yearly anomalies) are attributed to non-'pit bull' dogs. And then there's the old bugaboo of lumping a bunch of purebreds' and mongrels' data together under the umbrella term of 'pit bull', when that's not done for other kinds of purebreds or mixed breeds. Back when I was working in this field, I'd often point out that if we did the same thing for dogs of Mastiff origin, or those from the Working Group, we'd have a new "leader" in the fatality stat's.

I've also put it this way, "I'll take not being bitten by a well-mannered 'pit bull' any day, over actually being bitten by a Chihuahua."

I don't want to go off on a discussion about the absurdity of BSL, the flaws in the statistics, and outrageous media slant. I "get" that you're saying you, personally, have a problem with irresponsibly-owned 'pit bull'-type dogs in your area. That's fair enough. But surely, as a competent dog trainer, you know all dogs are perfectly trainable, and it is only the failure of its humans that causes a dog to behave in ways that are nuisance or dangerous. My own dogs have been varied in size, original breed purpose, and background, yet I've never had a poorly-behaved dog, much less an aggressive one. For nearly 50 years, I've had Great Danes ('the Apollo of Dogs') yet not one would be a danger to a tiny dog other than in the most obtuse, accidental sense (i.e. no more than I'm a danger to a little dog). People have often marvelled as my Danes have held a paw hovering over a tiny dog during play, but never making contact. "They're so gentle," people remark. And that's totally down to proper socialization.

Marjorie December 16th, 2008 02:09:49 PM

Okay so I have been stuck on the PSA thing since my earlier post "<em>it would be nice if at the end or even better during the previews of the movie there was a public service type of advertisement warning about the responsibility of pet ownership, how the breed featured in the upcoming movie isn't a pet for everyone, etc.."</em>

I did find one Disney PSA for the movie <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wbcH8ofz_0">Bolt here</a> and found a pretty good campaign for Marley and Me at the <a title="AKC" href="http://www.akc.org/marley">AKC site</a> and tommorow <a href="http://www.friendlygrove.com/Notes">my blog</a> entry is on the Marley and Me AKC campaign.

So, Marley and Me (20th Century Productions) teamed up the the AKC for a campaign but I can't find any such collaboration with Disney ?  I am still researching....

I tried to use html code so my post wouldn't run together not sure if it will work if not ...sorry

LC December 16th, 2008 06:07:59 PM

For nearly 50 years, I've had Great Danes ('the Apollo of Dogs') yet not one would be a danger to a tiny dog other than in the most obtuse, accidental sense (i.e. no more than I'm a danger to a little dog).

Fantastic! You are to be commended for that. Seriously.

Now, how does someone with a tiny dog, seeing you and your Dane coming down the street towards them, know in advance how your giant is going to behave when the distance closes between you, given that you and your dog are both strangers to her and her dog, and a mistaken judgment on that could be fatal for the tiny dog?

How do you react when the person with the tiny dog decides to err on the side of caution, and picks up the dog? Do you smile understandingly? Or do you sneer at the stupidity and Bad Dog  Ownership Behavior of this idiot who does not realize that you, a total stranger, of course have a perfectly trained dog of perfect temperament and perfect gracefulness?

Addy's not quite so tiny, but I'm careful around bigger, more massive dogs. And I judge by circumstances and the perceived attitude of the other owner as well as the other dog. If the other owner says hello, or responds when I do, it's almost always worth stopping and talking, and taking the chance to give Addy a little socialization with a bigger dog--depending on the other owner's estimation of their dog's behavior, and what I can observe for myself. If not, yes, I'll do pretty much anything to avoid getting Addy to close to the other dog.

Lis December 17th, 2008 08:26:50 AM

Hiya, Lis!

You wrote, "How do you react when the person with the tiny dog decides to err on the side of caution, and picks up the dog? Do you smile understandingly? Or do you sneer at the stupidity and Bad Dog Ownership Behavior of this idiot who does not realize that you, a total stranger, of course have a perfectly trained dog of perfect temperament and perfect gracefulness?"

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."

I don't think anyone who uses terms like "perfectly trained," "perfect temperament," and "perfect gracefulness" is typically doing so with anything but acrimony. But I would say that if those are the thoughts going through one's mind when meeting other dog owners, then it can only lead to hostility between the two parties. Making wild assumptions about what others are thinking is never a good idea...and is usually inaccurate, anyway. Why would you care what anyone is thinking?

It is true that, ultimately, what you're probably saying to a dog owner when you pick up your dog, or take evasive measures to avoid interaction, is, "I think you are an irresponsible dog owner," since only irresponsible dog owners raise poorly-behaved or aggressive dogs. I'm afraid you're just going to have to get over that, though. That is what you're saying, essentially, since if you thought they were resposnible owners with obedient, well-socialized dogs, you would allow your dog to approach theirs.

It's really not that much different than women not wanting to go on an elevator alone with a strange man. If the man isn't a threat, then he would naturally feel offended that this woman perceives him that way. Still, a reasonable man wouldn't begrudge a woman the right to do what she thinks is in her best interests (by taking another elevator). Yes, you might hurt someone's feelings if you act, and you're wrong. Accept it. Move on. Worrying about what someone "might" be "thinking" is even less productive, since you'll never actually know.

Learning when your instincts are correct and when they're not, is also very helpful. Avoiding a dog owner and then seeing his/her dog remained obedient and harmless is useful experience for the next encounter. It would be a shame to needlessly walk around in a constant state of fear and anxiety.

The full context of what I wrote was,

"...it is only the failure of its humans that causes a dog to behave in ways that are nuisance or dangerous. My own dogs have been varied in size, original breed purpose, and background, yet I've never had a poorly-behaved dog, much less an aggressive one. For nearly 50 years, I've had Great Danes ('the Apollo of Dogs') yet not one would be a danger to a tiny dog other than in the most obtuse, accidental sense (i.e. no more than I'm a danger to a little dog). People have often marvelled as my Danes have held a paw hovering over a tiny dog during play, but never making contact. 'They're so gentle,' people remark. And that's totally down to proper socialization."

I was merely pointing to the importance of socialization...in this case, for large dogs to be properly-socialized with small dogs, so the small dogs can teach them what is and isn't appropriate.

Very, very bad things can happen when dogs are kept separated by size; never learning how to properly interact with each other.

Big or small, all dog brains are pretty much identical in their ability to learn the language of dogs. In this way, socialization affords dogs the ability to learn how to communicate their desires to other dogs, as well as interpret the signals given by others. Some poorly-socialized small dogs act more like prey than dogs. Too many dogs, of all sizes and shapes, are not very well-socialized and behave far too submissive, excited, obnoxious, or sometimes dangerous. I haven't seen evidence any of that is restricted by size, though.

I guess my only recommendation would be to treat individuals individually, so you aren't responding in a way that is needlessly inappropriate or rude, or even in such a way as to keep you in a perpetual state of fear. But that's not especially insightful, since you also wrote,

"...I judge by circumstances and the perceived attitude of the other owner as well as the other dog."

Pretty much everyone does this, every day. We do it with other people, and we do it with the dogs we meet. Reasonable people assume others aren't a real danger to us (since so very, very few actually are), unless we perceive signals that suggest otherwise. (I.E. I don't think I've ever crossed a street simply because 'a man' was approaching me. I've crossed a street when I've felt a man might be following me, though.) I do my best to treat individuals individually. You basically said you do the same.

If you saw me walking towards you (with my large dog heeling beautifully beside me on a completely loose leash attached to a simple, flat, buckle collar, with license, rabies, and microchip tag jingling, with me smiling and walking with authority, and obviously enjoying my walk, not taking an evasive measures having sighted you), that "should" give you ample information about what you are likely to expect when we pass each other. (I.E. The well-trained, obedient dog, the confident owner unconcerned that you're approaching, the tags indicating an owner who takes her civic responsibilities seriously, etc., etc.) They're all little pieces of a puzzle of which it is up to you to make sense.

You can't convince me that's no different to you than sighting my neighbour and his out-of-control GSD, pulling at the end of a tight leash, with a prong collar, barking, lungeing, and snarling, dragging the adult male owner who's desperately attempting to flee to the side of the road or even onto private property or into bushes to avoid any oncoming dogs.

Where all dogs are supposed to be leashed, it should be kind of a 'no brainer'. People are expected to have control over their dogs, and simply moving out of the range of the leash should afford a good deal of safety, if necessary. Dog owners would be best advised to save off-leash time for dogs that are reasonbly well-socialized already (or limited to handlers who know what they're doing, if the dog is there to receive more socialization).

Properly socialized dogs can read other dogs, and appropriately avoid a truly aggressive dog. They could also use one of many calming signals well-socialized dogs have in their arsenal, to diffuse tense situations. A well-socialized dog knows that running from an aggressor can be just as unproductive as challenging it. Head turns. Walking sideways, away from... There are many options well-socialized dogs employ when dealing with obnoxious or dangerous dogs. But dogs aren't born knowing how to communicate with other dogs. They must learn. And they don't learn it from humans. They must learn through interactions with other dogs. And they can't learn it entirely on-leash. Socialization is not just important for the safety of the dog, it is also a huge benefit to owners, who can take them absolutely anywhere, and meet absolutely anyone with complete confidence.

As a dog trainer, I probably have a different view of these kinds of interactions than, say, average dog owners with less experience with various kinds of dogs and their behaviours. My heart almost bursts every time I come across Toy breed owners who allow their dogs to interact freely with all dogs in off-leash venues. As night follows day, these superbly-socialized little ones have no trouble keeping the big guys in line. I don't think I've ever owned a Dane that couldn't easily be ruled by a small dog or cat, if they so chose to take that role. But I honestly don't know if I'd have the cajones to be so confident, if the little dog were my own. I'd like to think I would. I'd certainly try.

Ironically, it is exceedingly common for Dane owners to also be Chi owners. Invariably, the Chi's rule the Danes.

I see a lot of mistakes made by owners, both on-leash and off. People rewarding their fearful dogs. People keeping tight leashes. No obedience training. Ignoring the escalation of dangerous behaviours. Removing their dogs from what would have been positive learning experiences. I've never categorized those observations by the dog's size. (And I hope I don't start, now!) ;-) It's the socialization (with dogs of all sizes, types, and temperaments) that is so vital in raising a good canine citizen who can meet anyone, anywhere, and behave appropriately.

Being fearful of a friendly individual is no less inappropriate than standing there, oblivious, while an aggressive individual approaches. With experience, we not only learn how to differentiate one from the other, but we also learn which strategies are most effective. Just as I don't fear anyone approaching me, unless I sense some reason to fear him/her, our dogs also learn how to read the signals others are giving, as well as advertising their own. When they get really good at it, they can expertly avoid conflicts while having mostly positive interactions with others. And that is probably the biggest benefit of socialization, for all dogs and owners.

Marjorie December 17th, 2008 12:18:35 PM

After having medium to large size mixed or mutt dogs all of my life I've ended up an old lady with a Chihuahua. I think she is really a mix, possibly part Corgi, and weights about 9 lbs. but she looks like what they used to call a deerhead Chi. She was pretty much "forced" on me four years after the death of my last dog (so I wouldn't be alone). I didn't want her or any Chi... at first. Now, I don't know what I'd do if I lost her. She is wonderful, not totally trained in any way but trained enough to go on the pee pee pad if I'm late home from work, and like my kids were, better behaved in public than at home. She was not my pick of the litter, I'd have gone for a black and white spotted boy who without correct handling has turned out to be very aggressive, but the breeder insisted she was the perfect match for me - and she is. She loves kids and is very well socialized. From the day she came home she was exposed to kids, and assortment of people (male and female) and to other animals. I do put a sweater and boots on her for winter walks, and I do pick her up when we are in crowds or around large dogs. I also treat her like a dog! I think the people are the problem. Some breeders do the dog that is in vogue and then we pick dogs because they are cute - I almost did, and it would have been a disaster. We should choose a breeder with card and let them know what we want in a dog - besides being cute! My Lula is very laid back and loves to sit on the back of my chair while I knit or read, she's perfect for me. She loves kids, I have five grandkids between 6 and 14, she's perfect for them. She is not aggressive, my daughter has a Yorkie pup who is hyper and Lu seems to realize she's just a puppy. She has never snapped at nor bitten any person or animal that I know of. We treat little dogs differently, folks think you are being "mean" if you discipline them and by discipline I don't meat hitting, I would not let an 80-pound Sheepdog/lab mix (my former dog) jump on me, why should I let a four pound dog (my daughter's Yorkie) get away with it? Perhaps if we choose a dog that fits our lifestyle and personality and not because we saw a wonderfully trained actor in a movie we'd have better luck. After all if we were out looking for a husband and saw a Brad Pitt movie, we would'nt want him would we?...oh bad example, but you know what I mean. 

Mina December 17th, 2008 02:04:08 PM

The lady doth protest to much, methinks......hmmmmm Marjorie I was thinking the same about you.

Wendy December 17th, 2008 07:26:37 PM

"The lady doth protest to much, methinks......hmmmmm Marjorie I was thinking the same about you."

Good grief. ...Another one.

So that's two, now.

Anyone can read what I wrote to Wendy, then read what Lis wrote to me in response to what I wrote to Wendy. Lis' comment, addressed specifically to me, makes no sense in context (although I was happy to address it...which is all I did).

Un-freaking-believable.

Marjorie December 17th, 2008 09:24:54 PM

Marjorie I think Wendy was responding to your reply to her rather than your reply to Lis. Either way you did a good job of disproving what Wendy said.

Emily December 18th, 2008 08:06:52 AM

It's all in perspective Emily. I tend to deal in the real world. Animals no matter how well train are unpredictable. My whole point way back when was why worry about Chihuahuas that aren't a problem for the general public. Many different breeds are overbred and have problems, heath and behavior. My friend has Springer Spaniels and is the first to admit that they can and are very aggressive at times for a variety of reasons. She is a very gifted dog trainer but has a very aggressive dog that has to be managed appropriately. There are breed biases all around. Shelties (I have two) are yappy and hyper. Who cares what people say, mine aren't. I just happened to mention the "P" word and that tends to get people with well mannered big dogs all up in arms. The general public doesn't want to hear wordy explanations of why dogs are aggressive. They are usually not interested in training and socializing their dogs to the degree some dog people are. They just want a dog and then do with it what they will. That is the real world. These are the people you will meet as you are walking down the street. And yes I will pick up my Chihuahua every time because it isn't his fault that man has bred dogs to be small and huge and expect them to interact. Believe me it won't be the big dog going to the vet. Example: Last September we attended a benefit dog walk in our local town. Lovely well socialized dogs intermingled. I saw a lovely Harlequin Great Dane heeling perfectly with his owner. He was calm and appeared to be very well socialized. Along comes a lady with a very small dog. Lovely Dane graps the dog and causes multiple injuries to the little dog and thousands of dollars worth of vet bills. That's the real world.

Wendy December 19th, 2008 12:59:02 PM

Wendy, my experience in walking my small dog is that the pit bull owners who are out walking their dogs have beautifully trained, well-mannered, well-socialized dogs, and moreover are the owners most likely to respond positively when I say that my dog needs some socialization practice and do they have a few minutes? Or else they are realistic about the limits of their dogs' socialization skills and willing to say so, without defensiveness. The dogfighters aren't out walking their dogs; the ones that are trying to impress the other Tough Guys with their Tough Dogs aren't walking them in this part of town.

But the unfortunate incident you mention with the Dane is also quite real, and not always recognized by owners of big dogs: if the size difference is great enough, and the bigger dog hasn't had enough experience with small dogs, they may not recognize the very small dogs as dogs. They may mistake it for a toy, or prey. And for the small dog, that's not just an oopsie.

Or the dog may recognize the small dog as a dog, be friendly, sincerely want to play--and have no judgment with regard to the difference in size. My dog is fourteen pounds; my sister's Lab is sixty-five pounds. That's a big difference. But my sister's Lab shows every sign of recognizing the size difference and doesn't play with my dog the same way that she plays with her Lab friends. One of those Lab friends is closer to seventy-five pounds, and is a great friendly galoot; he has no sense of the difference in size and wants to bounce on smaller dogs the same way he bounces on other Labs. So Addy plays with my sister's dog, but--despite the fact that this friend's dog is in many ways much better trained than my sister's--he's a service dog!--she doesn't play with the friend's dog. No insult to the friend, not insult to the friend's wonderful, friendly, beautifully trained service dog--but it's just not safe, for wholly practical reasons.

What Marjorie says about training and well-behaved dogs is all well and good, and true as far as it goes. But there's a wide, wide range between "untrained and unsocialized" and "excellently trained and excellently  socialized." People who are very responsible people, and have put a fair amount of work into teaching their dogs to walk nicely on leash, behave properly with people, etc., may not even be aware of the need to, specifically, socialize their dogs with dogs of a wide range of sizes. Or even, of the need to specifically practice socialization with other dogs at all. Or, they may be aware of the need, but, not having a ready supply of hot and cold running dogs, don't quite know how to go about it, beyond taking obedience classes at their local Petsmart.

So the fact that, when they first heave into view, the dog appears to be behaving excellently on leash, calm and well-behaved, and the owner is calm, relaxed, and unworried, is not a guarantee of how that dog will react to a much smaller dog when the distance closes. Or even how it will respond to a person.

Today, I was at the local feed store picking up a few things. I saw a big, beautiful dog walking very nicely on leash with his owner. When I went up to the register, they were there ahead of me, and this big, beautiful dog, with a big friendly, grin and a big, friendly wiggle-the-whole-back-half-of-the-body tail-wag, tried to jump on me. I took a step backwards, not because I was afraid of the dog's intentions, but because the practical  consequences of getting jumped on by a dog that size would likely have included my butt hitting the floor. I was not afraid of this dog; I just didn't want to get accidentally knocked over. The owner was embarrassed, and immediately put her dog in a sit and then a down; this wasn't an irresponsible owner; it was just a big, friendly, pretty well-behaved dog who still has a good bit of puppy in him and whose behavior is not yet absolutely bullet-proof.

So, it's not quite so simple as Marjorie would like to make it.

Lis December 19th, 2008 08:03:46 PM

Well said Lis, I only used Pit Bulls in the beginning as an example of a breed of dog that is more of a worry, once again, in my area, than a Chihuahua. Must have hit a nerve. I live in the country and they seem to be the breed of choice where I live. It is well known that city dogs, no matter what the breed, that are out walking with their owner are generally more socialized than country dogs that might rarely leave their backyard. City dogs get more people time and other dog time. I was not talking about the dogs that get well trained and socialized to the degree that other dog trainers are suggesting. It is usually very time consuming to introduce your dog to all the situations they might encounter in a lifetime. Most people don't do that so while a dog is well behaved they may react just as the Dane did on the dog walk. I work closely with a 4H group and we have a Husky that is well socialized. He has been shown and has gone to the fair with all his boys for many years but still sees little dogs as prey. So when he's around do I let my little dog teach him how to behave around little dogs. No way. I won't risk it. Do I let my Flat Coat help socialize dogs? Yes I do because he's good at it and I'm not so worried he will get hurt. On the other hand if someone approached him with a little dog I would worry that he would step on the little one because he is such a big galloof. Still resulting in an injury no matter what the intention. Once again, my point all along was who cares if people pick up their little friend and baby it. There are more important things to worry about. I think it is a cute movie. And I bet Paris Hilton's dogs aren't complaining.

Wendy December 19th, 2008 10:02:46 PM

Well said Lis, I only used Pit Bulls in the beginning as an example of a breed of dog that is more of a worry, once again, in my area, than a Chihuahua. Must have hit a nerve.

Wendy, of course you hit a nerve, using pits as your example! Pits are the current popular targert of the perennial "[insert breed name here] is inherently vicious and unpredictable; no matter how well cared for and trained they will turn on you and rip your children to shreds" hysteria. They're banned or restricted in many places, with many other places considering bans. In Miami-Dade, where Dr. Khuly is, pits are illegal. If identified by local authorities, or surrendered to a shelter for any reason, they are required to be killed.

So, yes, people with pits are likely to be hypersensitive to having the breed used as an example of a dangerous dog. Just like people with well-socialized chihuahuas are likely to be hypersensitive to them being used as an example of a yappy, unsocialized, aggressive little dog whose owners "don't let it be a dog."

One would think that someone who has a breed that's unfairly stigmatized and hates that would be sensitive to risk of doing the same thing to someone else with a breed that's unfairly stigmatized, but too often that's not the case--on both sides of the divide.

Lis December 20th, 2008 09:36:30 AM

Tell that to the family of the grandpa in SoCal that was killed yesterday by his son's pit bulls...that knew him.

Wendy December 20th, 2008 11:33:31 AM

When it was Rotties that were the Designated Dangerous Breed, there were the same stories about them. And when it was Dobermans, plenty of similar/identical stories about them. And in the 19th century, it was "American spitz dogs." You don't hear scary stories about "American spitz dogs" anymore; you hear about how "American Eskimo dogs" (the same breed, renamed) are great family dogs.

And the pit bull used to have the nickname "the nanny dog" because it was such a great dog to leave with kids, or to run around town with the kids: gentle, friendly, but protective.

As for the SoCal case: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28321445/

Note that one of those "pit bulls" is said to weigh 107 pounds. Whatever that dog is, it's not a well-bred pit bull. The female, at 52 pounds, is possible. The writer of the AP story has such a very vast knowledge of dogs that they say of the two dogs (one male, one female)  "But he noted that neither dog had been spayed." That "information" is attributed to County Animal Services spokesman John Welsh; I hope he knows the difference. If he didn't, though, the writer should have. It's not especially arcane knowledge.

So, we have a story written by an idiot who does not know even the basics about dogs, and certainly couldn't spot a pit bull in a dog line-up.

Salon has a shorter version of the same AP story, right down to the 107-pound pit bull, and neither dog having been "spayed." http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/us/2008/12/19/D9567UJ80_mauling_death/index.html?source=rss&aim=wires

So, what do we know? Two dogs killed a man. There are no pictures of the dogs. We don't know that they were pits, and we don't in fact know what he was doing right before the attack. We don't know anything about the dogs' training or socialization. We do know that a well-bred pit does not weigh 107 pounds, and we know who breeds giant-sized "pit bulls." (The kind of person, not the individual in this case.)We do know that they were (probably! how can we be sure, given the ignorance of the reporter?) unneutered adults, leading to the suspicion that they perhaps did not have the most responsible owner.

So no, this story does not support the idea that the current attitude towards pit bulls is anything other than unfounded hysteria.

Lis December 20th, 2008 12:55:33 PM

kan i skaffe en masse fede foto +billeder generelt...atl om agrisive dobermen.in acktion.så vildt så muligt,e.k.s en mand der ik kan holde hunden eller hunde ikamp .eller en ja.....frit spil.....på forhånd.tak hvis i skaffer det perfekte foto ,what ever.er der en tattoo ..til gengæld..deal or no deal...mange jule hilsner dogk tattoo..hammel østergade 26 d..jylland.jeg har lige en kunde der er guld værd...

tattoo dan hammel December 21st, 2008 04:22:36 PM

To say that because someone is out walking their dog, of any breed, must mean that they are friendly and should be allowed to sniff ro investigate your small dog is rubbish.

1) As a teen I used to walk, on lead only, NEVER off, a very adult/man aggressive lab mix.  My mother wouldn't let me go to the park to play basketball, or even go for a walk, without her along for protection.  So many ADULTS would walk up to pet her without asking.  If I saw someone even begin to look at her (that wasn't a child, she loved children) I would advise them to stay away.

2) All of my dogs are dog/people social, however I've run into SO many people walking their dog off lead at the local  nature preserves that are not.  I've had my larger (45 lb) dog held down by the neck by some type of large rottie or lab mix, while I've had my little 5.5 lb yorkie in arms. I also take my larger dog to the dog park, and I've seen so many people who insist on bringing little toy dogs when big dogs are running around full speed in play.  I always make a graceful exit.  I've seen too many little dogs jumping out of the way of, or getting run over by, larger dogs playing.  I haven't seen an injury, but I don't want to wait.

I always pick up my little dogs if a much larger dog I don't know is approaching.  It's the smart thing to do.  If something is going to happen, I want to have control over the situation.  I don't know the other dog, I have no idea if it's a friendly gentle giant, or a sweet but clumsy galoof likely to step on my little dog in overexcited glee at meeting a new person, or a person out enjoying a walk with a dog not good with other dogs. 

Being the owner of my small dog, it is my responsibility to protect them.  They depend on me, their larger guardian, to protect them.

This does not mean they don't socialize with other dogs- but it's on my terms with dogs of similar size or on my terms.  I'm sure Dr. Khuly has stories of big dog- small dog interactiosn gone awry.

 

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