Imagine you were willing to pay anything to find the best Lab puppy money could buy. Let’s say you’re not inculcated into the proper ways of going about this. Let’s also assume your children are begging you to get one online based on their own Google searches.
Finally you cave and send for the cutest pup in the litter based on a short video showing how vigorous, healthy and well cared for these pups are.
Your pup arrives at the airport and your children are in love on the spot. The pup indeed seems happy and healthy except for some diarrhea the breeder has informed you will more than likely result after the stress of the flight and change in diet.
The next day you bring your new pup to the vet expecting a clean bill of health. Unfortunately, your vet finds 1) a low-grade heart murmur, 2) bilateral Ortolani signs (an indicator of hip dysplasia) and 3) more coccidia (a protozoan parasite) on fecal examination than this vet has ever seen before on one single microscope slide.
It’s clear that the vet who signed the health certificate for this dog should have his head examined…or his license revoked…or both. None of these problems were mentioned in the paperwork accompanying this pup. And the health certificate was signed a few days before the date of my examination. How is it that we can hold such divergent opinions on the health of this particular animal?
Never mind the price of the animal (into the thousands!). This case is just a travesty all around. How the heck does this stuff happen? Here’s a short list:
1) Because few of these cases are ever reported to any authority.
2) Because interstate sales create jurisdiction issues and hamper the buyers’ belief that there might be possible solutions to the problem.
3) Because buyers feel victimized and many victims aren’t keen on announcing their now-evident ignorance to the world.
4) Because the kids are in love with the pet already.
5) Because the pet is sick and if the buyers send it back it might be euthanized or worse: it might not make it through the flight even if they could find a vet to write a health certificate (usually required to fly the animal home).
6) Because buyers have spent the money already and they intuit they’re never going to get it back without a team of lawyers.
There are plenty more reasons but you get the drift. It’s practically a done deal once these buyers receive their pets from afar. I’ve rarely seen them returned (and I’ve easily dealt with over a hundred such cases).
The big picture isn’t pretty in these cases: Responsible vets tend not to know what to do to resolve the problem effectively. Responsible breeders don’t know how to protect their industry from such predators. State licensing boards don’t often hear about these cases and the AVMA doesn’t have jurisdiction on legal issues (which are the domain of the licensing bodies). Meanwhile, Animal Control is besieged with the unwanteds and the more egregious cruelty concerns taking place in their own municipalities.
What will it take to bring an end to these practices? Increased consumer complaints? Buyers willing to prosecute these cases from across state lines? Greater local enforcement of breeding practices?
In my estimation, educating the pet buying public seems the only surefire solution. As with the drug trade or any other dusky-hued markets, eliminating demand is the crucial component of success. So inform your friends. Put out the word. And, above all, “Just say NO!”
Add Comment40 Comments
This is an ongoing issue but I also wonder on the veterinary end. How can veterinary clinics deal with the issue? I know in my industry, there are no real regulatory agencies and only voluntary participation in professional groups.
What is the best way to handle this--I know when there was a trainer abusing an animal--nobody thought it was out of line because the established techniques are acceptable. Argh.
What is a professional to do?
Diana L Guerrero February 3rd, 2008 12:53:00 PM
Another situation I have heard more & more of---purchasing a puppy "blindly" via the internet.
As per your account, an emotional dilemma involving a living thing. If it were a defective toaster, obviously immediately returned expecting a full replacement or refund.
What can this family do, short of return? Hopefully, inform any club or organization the breeder is a member of (probably none) that impose a standard of ethics and breeding practice; inform any consumer organization with jurisdiction. Send copies of all paperwork (probably cleverly written to guarantee next to nothing).
What can the Veterinarian on the receiving end do? Perhaps call or fax the professional that supplied the clean "health certificate", insisting on the paltry price of basic coccidia treatment (aggravating nonetheless), etc. What about a copy to the airlines? Perhaps in numbers, they may refuse health certificates from this individual?
As a single complaint, nothing will change---as numbers accumulate, hopefully something may.
Your point is valid, victims often do nothing---shamed that they should have "known better" despite the trust in the very safeguards that are meant to "protect".
Public awareness is a single step.
Barbara A. Albright February 3rd, 2008 01:03:00 PM
Aha! This reminds me of my son and daughter-in-law who "bought" a pet (of questionable ancestry and age) from a yet more questionable man on the street. They were lucky. Their dog is healthy (once the worms were taken care of), and they are now struggline to deal with a healthy, very aggressive female pup. who annoys their older dog, who they have to pay $100 per week to have walked twice a day because of their busy schedules.
Many of us (including me...) are impulsive, don't believe that anything bad can happen, etc. and we pay in the end.
I have so many problems with someone willing to buy a dog without having the dog checked out as well as having the dog shipped.
And, what would I do? Probably keep the dog and hope for the best. I'm a sucker for puppies and babies...
How is Sophie Sue?
janet Mondshein February 3rd, 2008 01:19:00 PM
So sad, and it causes me to wonder if this vet issued this health certificate on an entirely different puppy! What kind of identification is required on a health certificate to make sure that the correct certificate goes with the right puppy? Are the puppies tatooed or microchipped to identify them and to make sure that Puppy Z with the coccidia and heart murmur isn't shipped off to unsuspecting buyers with Puppy A's clean bill of health?
In the case of documenting humans, we have signatures, photos and fingerprints, but what do vets and breeders use to make sure that animals don't get switched and the consumer doesn't get scammed?
Annapolitan February 3rd, 2008 01:21:00 PM
I've heard of this a lot and either the vets are lying (sorry) or the breeder is being sneaky- like someone suggested, substituting a healthy animal for the animal being shipped. After all, a yellow Lab puppy is a yellow Lab puppy when it comes to the health certificate- since I don't believe they require microchips or any sort of permanent ID (which the only other I could think of would be tattoo.
That being said, there are situations where purchasing an animal through the internet (ie using the internet to get in touch with the seller) is a good thing. Hard to find breeds of dogs (which vary from state to state and coast to coast), looking for a show pup with certain qualities, etc- one may use the internet as a tool to PURCHASE said pup. The thing is- you need to know the warning signs of a bad/mass/puppymiller type breeder...
Puppies with prices and a 'pay now!' button next to them- no go.
No mention of health testing on the pages- no go.
No pictures of parents and when you inquire, you still don't get photos of the parents- no go.
Although this isn't ALWAYS the case, if the breeder isn't showing- you need to find out WHY. Talk to them. IF there was a breed I wanted and the breeder did all of the health testing required, but didn't show- I wouldn't nix them right off the bat. HOWEVER, if you want to show- I'd definitely move on.
ANNNND health testing, health testing, heatlh testing- don't settle for "Yup, their parents were tested" because PEOPLE LIE. Ask for PROOF of health testing. There are a bunch of different ways to find out if the parents were tested.
Anyways- I'm just saying... Not all purchases made using the internet as a connection are bad. But realistically, most of them ARE and that's truly sad. I don't know what you CAN do- except I hope the family DEMANDS a refund and if they don't get one- I'd report the breeder to the IRS and whomever else they can contact.
Trish February 3rd, 2008 01:40:00 PM
I agree with you about education being needed.
That means raising awareness about this problem, both through word of mouth, online sources like this, and PRESS. And to get press, there have to be some complaints -- some consumers willing to make noise. Whether its to vet boards or just to a local journalist, we pet owners have to be willing to come forward and squawk about this stuff, putting aside our embarrassment, in order to make change.
As for why there isn't more awareness or why owners don't do more, of your six reasons:
"1) Because few of these cases are ever reported to any authority.
2) Because interstate sales create jurisdiction issues and hamper the buyers’ belief that there might be possible solutions to the problem.
3) Because buyers feel victimized and many victims aren’t keen on announcing their now-evident ignorance to the world.
4) Because the kids are in love with the pet already.
5) Because the pet is sick and if the buyers send it back it might be euthanized or worse: it might not make it through the flight even if they could find a vet to write a health certificate (usually required to fly the animal home).
6) Because buyers have spent the money already and they intuit they’re never going to get it back without a team of lawyers. "
I think all of them play a part, but #6 is the biggie. Anyone who pays attention to the outcome of pet-related cases can clearly see how much time and money it takes to get a totally unsatisfactory judgment or punishment rendered.
One point though. You remark that "State licensing boards don’t often hear about these cases"
I have been trying to get that type of information, and have learned that complaints to state veterinary licensing boards are NOT public except in a handful of states. So, unless you have access to that information, we don't know whether that is true or not. We have no way of monitoring enforcement because we don't get to see complaints. Even if disciplinary action on this type of issue is rare, that doesn't mean there weren't complaints to the state board. Anyway, the only jurisdiction the board would have is over the breeder's vet who declared the pup "healthy", but no jurisdiction over the breeder himself.
If there are few complaints on this issue, perhaps that is why: It doesn't occur to the "buyer" to find out who the breeder's vet is and lodge a complaint against that person, they are probably seeing the breeder as the sole source of the problem.
You ask
"How the heck does this stuff happen?"
I think there is a 7th reason. The 7th reason is that the veterinarians who inherit care of this animal in his or her new home do not file complaints against their colleagues (the breeders vet) when they are in the best position to do so.
Why doesn't the new vet for the puppy report the breeders vet to the State Board in the breeders state? A complaint to a State Vet Board carries more weight from a fellow vet, and has the built-in expert opinion. How can anyone expect clients to know that? Or even care? The client is just upset that a) he's out all that money, and b) the puppy he now loves is sick. He probably never thinks about the breeders vet.
In addition to public education I think that GOOD vets of conscience should be standing up within their industry to speak up for ethics and good practice standards rather than wait for the public to demand this. I wish the change would come from within the profession, rather than so many of us having to push so hard from the outside.
Stefani February 3rd, 2008 02:01:00 PM
Awesome post! I agree that educating the buyers is the only remedy... drying up the demand will quickly put these breeders out of business. But it's tough - people ARE impulsive and there are fewer things on this Earth that are more appealing than a puppy or kitten. It still amazes me that there are so many people who think that buying a pup from a pet store, or from someone down the street/out of the classified ads, or from a mass producer over the Internet is OK. And obviously, not ALL of those hundreds of thousands of pups are sick or there would be a mass outcry against it.
Another problem though, is that many of the mass producers are getting very slick with their web sites. They'll use all the buzz words including "health tested" "puppies raised in the home" and have buyers fill out applications and sign contracts and talk about how "careful" they are about placing their puppies. But they'll still sell to anyone with the cash or the credit card. We're dealing with a problem Dane breeder right now who says all these comforting things on her web site. Has buyers fill out an application and claims to raise all pups in her home. But if you actually go through and count you'll realize she has over 30 adult Danes and has had SEVEN litters since the end of November!! I don't know anyone who can keep 50 puppies in their home!! But you have to know enough to go looking for the real scoop - a casual visitor would never notice that there are way too many dogs there for it to be a home based business.
Barb February 3rd, 2008 02:24:00 PM
Well we surely don't want ANY legislation regulating these idiots that are breeding, snort. I agree with Stephani's suggestion that it might be helpful if the receiving vet either called the original vet or filed a complaint.
Jules February 3rd, 2008 02:26:00 PM
"Why doesn't the new vet for the puppy report the breeders vet to the State Board in the breeders state? A complaint to a State Vet Board carries more weight from a fellow vet, and has the built-in expert opinion. How can anyone expect clients to know that? Or even care? The client is just upset that a) he's out all that money, and b) the puppy he now loves is sick. He probably never thinks about the breeders vet."
My understanding is that in many states vets cannot file complaints with the state boards against other vets, only clients can. The most a vet can do is encourage the client to file a complaint.
Dr. Patty- great post. Definitely one of the many sources of frustration for vets and the support staff (and then the issue of when the client can't afford to treat the puppy after paying the thousands for it and the associated shipping cost).
Alli February 3rd, 2008 02:44:00 PM
If indeed the health certificate required specifically for "air shipment" were forged or substituted, all the MORE reason for the breeder's veterinarian to be informedby the receiving client's veterinarian! This however, would not explain the gross finding of coccidia---a parasite commonly affecting an ENTIRE litter (since it is so easily transmitted).
I noted the comment that some states (?) prevent professionals from filing complaints against colleagues----no laws or regulations regarding that in my state of New Hampshire and just curious as to what states are thought to include this ?? A whole different topic, and one that would garner a lot of public awareness and discussion!
Barbara A. Albright February 3rd, 2008 03:32:00 PM
Send me the breeders b=name and address. I'll put HIM in a crate and ship him somewhere.
Larry February 3rd, 2008 03:47:00 PM
Re: "My understanding is that in many states vets cannot file complaints with the state boards against other vets, only clients can"
I am almost 100% sure that that is NOT true. t I am sure I recall having read disciplinary actions taken in response to vets complaints about other vets although perhaps I have seen very few of these. More often, its VET TECHS complaints about vets.
It happens rarely not because its legally disallowed -- that wouldn't make any sense. It happens rarely because just like in human medicine, this is very much frowned upon, and can get you banned within your own community. No matter how bad a fellow doctor/vet, they figure: He is one of our own.
Perhaps they just pass the rumor that it is illegal because it is so frowned upon.
Stefani February 3rd, 2008 05:05:00 PM
The only way this is going to stop is by educating. Even in schools it would work, because the children are the future.
There's so much wrong with buying a puppy out of a car on the street or on the internet. The pictures and videos you see on the breeder's page may not even be their own.
When me and my fiance went to pick out pups he didn't understand how important it is too see the dogs' parents and to read the health guarantees and papers that go along with it. Or to ask about licenses that the breeder has. Either way, I went along and checked it all out for myself. To this day, I've had not a single problem with my dog and she turned a year old recently. =)
ashleigh February 3rd, 2008 06:59:00 PM
I personally feel the only vicitm in these situations is the pet. Shame on the breeder, yes, but shame on the public who purchase from them even more. We recently had a smiliar situation in our clinic (parasites galore and a referral to a cardiologist), and the "proud new owner" left w/a bill equal to what she paid for the pup, and I thought she deserved it. Maybe I'm mean-spirited, but when does it stop? If you're that infatuated w/a particular breed, adopt from a breed-specific rescue group. If you're looking for a pet, get over yourself and adopt from a respectable shelter. I get so irritated with new clients coming in with their new "show quality" pup that they paid X amount of dollars for and had shipped in...whatever *rolls eyes*. I'm not impressed. "She's got papers and everything!". Ugh. What does that matter? Seriously!
OK, done now! :P
anna February 3rd, 2008 07:09:00 PM
I think I agree with everything everyone said. I will only add, why do adults cave to pressure from their kids? Who is the parent here? Good grief.
I can only hope they learned a vluable lesson they will share with others.
Sending best wishes for this pups future health.
Marie February 3rd, 2008 08:13:00 PM
Damn you woman! Why do you always write things that are so topical, relevant, and piercing???
First, the disclosure. I am going tomorrow to get a travel health certificate from my vet for Stella, one of the puppies from my Celeste's litter. Stella will be boarding a plane later in the week and flying from Colorado to Monterey, California. Stella's buyer found me over the internet, specifically at one of those puppy sites I advertised on which linked back to my web page. People like terrierman have denounced these websites as evil, but why should we trust you, him, or me... we're writing ON THE INTERNET! (therefore it must be poor quality or evil)
(1) I can't imagine shipping a puppy that is already sick. Where's the fecal test? Why wasn't the puppy de-wormed? These things were CHEAP and EASY to do.
My litter was born naturally at the vets, who charged surprisingly little for an "extended stay." Worth every penny to have the entire team catering to my little babies. It was even worth the final x-ray (the only real expensive item on the bill)... one, it made sure there were no pups (could have been done by hand, but you never know) and it also gave my vet yet another opportunity to look at my Celeste's hips. Sure, two PennHip tests might be enough to be pretty confident, but there's no better feeling in the world than having a potential buyer ask about health testing and being able to show them 16 week and 2 year PennHip reports and a super-recent note from the vet confirming that everything is still AOK after the pregnancy.
(2) De-Worming has to be the easiest thing ever. And it's super cheap. My vet gave me a bottle of Nemex II and a couple syringe bodies. The pups love the pudding flavor, it was easy to give them, and it worked, their 7 week old fecal tests all came back clear. And what kind of scum would send a puppy on a plane without a fecal test and without de-worming?
(3) If the puppy wasn't de-wormed, was it also missing its 6 week puppy shot? How about some Parvo with your puppy. Sheesh. Even that was cheap and easy. I did the entire litter myself. No big deal. Even a penny pinching puppy miller should see that the first shots clearly pay for themselves. It costs a couple bucks to vaccinate, whereas Parvo can kill their entire puppy milled stock in one foul swoop.
(4) The certificate vet should be investigated and the puppy should be returned. The kids will get over it when you get a quality puppy. Just imagine the problems the kids are going to have as they watch their little HD puppy turn into a cripple and then linger on for months until euthanasia is the only option. Rip the band-aid off now and move on.
(5) Where you advertise has no relation to the quality of the dog or the breeding practices of the breeder. Advertising is about maximizing exposure, not about quality. I advertised right along with the puppymillers and their sins didn't rub off on me and I think it was very easy to distinguish the quality of my dogs from theirs. Advertising narrowly (socially among fellow dog sport contacts and people who already knew me and my dogs) and widely (local paper, internet) gave me the best chances of finding just the right homes. I advertised widely and priced very reasonably and the result was that I got a very nice selection of buyers and I got to pick only the best. I'd guess that I (nicely) rejected 2/3rds of the serious inquires, and I also found a handfull of buyers who I would have sold to but who wanted a pup that wasn't available (gender), who I gave a list of breeders I trust who have litters planned.
As it turned out, not one single source resulted in the best buyers and I'd use the internet and the paper again in the future.
One of the hats I wear is assisting in court cases for security fraud (when your broker screws you out of all your money with poor choices or outright fraud). I'll tell you that almost all the crooks scammed their own families, their fellow parishioners, their neighbors, and members of their golf clubs. Many of them actually joined multiple churches, etc. to maximize clients.
BUT, you say, I trust my broker, he goes to my church! Oh, cousin Jim, he's ok. Hank? yeah, I'm a better golfer but I trust his judgment. He wouldn't screw me, he lives right next door!
One of these crooks is sending his kid to private schools while both of his neighbors are now in foreclosure because he got them to leverage their accounts with HELOCs. Totally illegal on the face of it, but hell, he was a neighbor! The two neighbors kids can't go out of state to school now.
(6) I have a contract and it bounds me as well as the buyer. Colorado has no puppy lemon law and I want to be protected and as a buyer I wanted protections, so it's all covered and in writing. It makes it crystal clear what is expected of me and what I expect. I doubt I will ever have to use it or any of my buyers will ever have to use it. But people place a lot more value on a contract than, say, a business card. And that contract has all of my contact info, the agreement to spay/neuter, the agreement to take back the animal at any time for any reason, the agreement not to transfer the animal to anyone else, any shelter or organization or lab or anything without my permission, it has my right of first refusal for any sale of the animal, the requirement that we update each other on our address, the health guarantee, the mandatory vet visit, arbitration/mediation agreement. Everything that I'd want as a buyer.
(7) Let me sing the praises of the Internet again. It brought us who cared the pet food recall scandal in a way that most of us would have missed entirely if it was just up to the media. It also exposes puppymills easily. If you google the kennel names of a lot of those sellers on those websites, it's easy to read the bulletin boards and official statements of the breed clubs about those breeders who falsify their pedigrees, and all the trash talk. The collective information of all those people is SO MUCH better than the word of mouth from a friend or the local breeder right next door who you have no real way of vetting. Even the poorest of breeders will likely have many references who will speak glowingly about them.
The internet also gives us the ability to research the breeds and their disease in a way that no print publication can. For instance, TNS is a disease that has a test that is very new. The disease is probably more common that previously thought. Not ONE SINGLE official medical journal on pets lists TNS as a problem in Border Collies, and most printed publications and many websites fail to mention several of the known issues at all and some of the conditions they do focus on don't even apply to Border Collies to any appreciable degree! The internet is 24/7 publishing and is at the finger tips of anyone.
Terrierman bashes websites like nextdaypets for making buying pets online easy, but, um, he feels just fine peddling his book online. If we aren't supposed to trust things unless they are found in "traditional channels" why should we buy his book if it's not on the shelf in the Tattered Cover, Barnes and Noble, or Borders?
Show titles, health testing, and a big reputation and a nice website doesn't mean much of anything if your fundamentals are bad. Heck, the lady who runs the online health database for border collies, a lady who is pretty active in promoting health testing, herself bred an entire litter of TNS puppies, almost all of which died. Why did that happen? Well, she inbred. Duh.
Border Wars - Christopher February 4th, 2008 12:20:00 AM
Caving to childrens wants and buying a puppy online? These are just some of the ingredients to a complete disaster.
Hope the puppy feels better soon.
Stacy February 4th, 2008 07:30:00 AM
The comment about vets to being able to report other vets to the state boards is coming from one of the veterinary online communities (not open to the general public). If it is a myth it is one that is being perpetuated in the veterinary community, and as someone said earlier, education is a good solution.
Alli February 4th, 2008 07:41:00 AM
As I read through everyone's comments here, I'm struck by one thought: what are the national breed clubs and the AKC doing to help? Seriously, the AKC has the power and the money to launch an educational campaign that drives purebred purchasers to the national breed clubs first.
Notwithstanding the folks that buy on impulse, an educational campaign should raise awareness of the problem. Given the popularity of purebreds and realizing that this isn't going to change anytime soon, why not at least support the breeders that are responsible and that do the right thing as far as they humanly can?
Alex February 4th, 2008 08:35:00 AM
"Terrierman bashes websites like nextdaypets for making buying pets online easy, but, um, he feels just fine peddling his book online. If we aren't supposed to trust things unless they are found in "traditional channels" why should we buy his book if it's not on the shelf in the Tattered Cover, Barnes and Noble, or Borders?"
Books aren't living beings. If the book is not in good condition when it arrives, you're out $20-$30, not a broken heart.
Lis February 4th, 2008 09:18:00 AM
I'm a dog trainer and wrote a short "Puppy Manual" that I hand out to new clients, especially the new puppy clients, I include it in the price of the 1st private lesson or Puppy K class, so no extra charge for them, they ALL get it. Though these people already have their new dog, the entire 1st chapter (there are 5 in it) is dedicated on how to properly go about getting their next canine companion. It talks about questions to ask a breeder or shelter group, ages, health checks and vax that should be done, environments puppys would hopefully be raised in and exposed to, how to be an educated consumer no matter where you buy a puppy, how to pick out a puppy if the choice is left to them, etc. I kind of figure that most people who get one dog, will probably get another at some point in the future. Though most of these people, I couldn't educate BEFORE the current puppy came home, I can at least try to do my part to educate before the next one walks in their door.
I too think Educating the Consumer is the key to helping this issue.
Katrin February 4th, 2008 09:44:00 AM
Re:" The comment about vets to being able to report other vets to the state boards is coming from one of the veterinary online communities (not open to the general public). If it is a myth it is one that is being perpetuated in the veterinary community, and as someone said earlier, education is a good solution."
I take it you are a member of that community, so when I get the facts for you, you can help debunk that myth. I will contact all the state boards and ask.
As for the rest of your comment -- it just underscores what I already said. Good vets stand by silently and watch bad vets operate in their midst. Sometimes they are horrified, sometimes they even are willing to testify at a vet board hearing if SOMEONE ELSE files a complaint first. But rarely do they ever speak up on their own.
And, when we consumers try to speak out, good vets see us as the enemy too, because they mentally cast their lot with their malpractitioner brothers. Which they should not do.
Consumers alone can't fix the problem -- that type of behavior has to become unnacceptable in your professional culture. Until that happens, nothing consumers do will stop it. Same with human malpractice, or anything really.
Stefani February 4th, 2008 10:02:00 AM
Education is important, but some of these things could be reduced using regulatory mechanisms too, I think.
emily February 4th, 2008 10:51:00 AM
"I take it you are a member of that community, so when I get the facts for you, you can help debunk that myth. I will contact all the state boards and ask."
I can take care of one for you- we just had a lecture from the head of the Minnesota board of vet med, and in MN vets can report other vets to the board.
Megan February 4th, 2008 12:41:00 PM
It looks like I'm going to have to address the issue of vet on vet reporting. I do my share of irresponsible vet bashing on this site but it still stresses me out to report vets to the authorities when they do bad things. That's because I feel as if informing on my own kind when I can't be sure whether the breeder did it or the vet did it is a pretty nasty thing to do. Plus, shouldn't it be the financially aggreived party's responsibility? The problem comes when I know the buyer won't do it. I don't want irresponsible vets tainting my profession any more than I want them making it easy to sell unhealthy pups online. Occasionally I'll get on the phone to confront someone but turn 'em in? Not yet. That might be changing soon, though. I promise I'll think about it.
And as to the Internet thing--it's as with vets and everything else in this world: there are as many great vets and great Internet sellers as there are terrible versions of both. Gotta take the good with the bad but we still have to work hard to condemn the bad apples and make their foul work harder to do.
Dr. Patty Khuly February 4th, 2008 03:46:00 PM
First, I agree that there is a lot of dishonesty going on. However, I've been on the other end of the phone with a new owner who is livid over the fact our vet signed a health certificate for their new cryptorchid puppy.
So....playing the devil's advocate here: What does a health certificate *mean* (according to the language on the form)?
Where do the vet's obligations lie? The statement on the certificate that they sign has nothing to do with Ortolani signs or cryptorchidism or even internal parasites (although I found it interesting that Florida's health certificate form *does* mention this specifically; Wisconsin's does not) . It merely states that the dog is fit to travel and that it is 'free from apparent infectious disease' (or some wording thereof).
Are we being dishonest by providing a WI health certificate to someone shipping a pet even if it is a cryptorchid? Are we obligated to run fecals on all animals that present for a health certificate?
Michelle Schwab February 4th, 2008 07:40:00 PM
What exactly does a veterinary health certificate attest to? Is it just that the pet doesn't have any communicable diseases? Hip dysplasia, heart murmurs, portosystemic shunts, and the myriad other nasty things that a young kitten or puppy could get are not transmissible so a clean bill of health may in fact be strictly what the veterinarian is attesting to.
Alex February 4th, 2008 08:41:00 PM
2CatMom has it right. The internet is a tool just like anything else. The medium is amoral, not moral, not immoral, just amoral. It is neutral and can be used for good, or bad, just like every other method.
There are unique challenges to go along with the unique advantages, but again, all the pit falls that this particular family fell for over the internet could have easily happened during any other method.
I personally got a lot more information (and in writing!) from my internet prospectives than I did on a single call from the telephone inquiries. It was easier to send short e-mails back and forth than to take copious notes over phone calls and in-person interviews.
Potential buyers could just as easily investigate me and find out answers to questions they didn't even think of asking.
The comment that a book is not a puppy... I actually fail to see the difference as far as a buyer is concerned. In both cases you should be well aware of your rights should there be a problem. If you are so weak as to cave to emotion and admit failure less you piss off the kids, then you are just as easily going to have a problem if the breeder is your sister than if they are 1,000 miles away by plane.
The emotional living being argument you are making applies to puppies no matter what the source is. It would be just as devastating to get that same nasty surprise if the buyer had picked up the puppy in person from a well respected breeder with multiple referrences. It would be the same heart break taking that dog back as there will be shipping back this lemmon puppy. And shipping the puppy back is only $160. A small price to pay to have done with the lemmon. Even if they don't get their money back from the breeder, consider it a stupid-tax or perhaps a premium on not making the mistake again on the replacement puppy.
Not one of the problems with this puppy would have been any easier to identify had this buyer shown up in person. The only issue here is that after the vet decided the puppy was a lemon, the breeder is now a flight away, not a short drive. That is an obvious issue on the face of it.
The buyer should have appreciated that before. And no, no ammount of puppy-specific education would change this buyer's siutation.... if he didn't get a contract that listed what was to be done upon a failed health test, then his lack of preparation is beyond the specifics of buying a puppy.
This guy could have been just as easily duped ording a book online, a car online, a mail order bride, or anything else.
This guy's real problem isn't that he got a lemmon puppy, it's that he's unwilling to do the right thing and take it back or send it back.
As for Michelle Schwab's comment. That nasty call is just as clueless as this buyer. How the hell is a vet going to diagnose one testicle that has failed to descend in a puppy where neither are supposed to have dropped yet?!? I think that the examining Vet is actually pretty spot on for catching those hip problems... those might not manifest for a long time.
Just think of all the nasty and dangerous things that your own Doctor would likely not find during a physical. Any number of cancers would have no visible signs, might not show up in the blood work, and would go undiagnosed until they were really causing you trouble.
Border Wars - Christopher February 4th, 2008 09:34:00 PM
I'm feeling guilty adding a 3rd comment. Even in person, a puppy purchaser wouldn't notice a heart murmur or questionable hips. But the coccidia? That is inexcusable to provide a health certificate or airline certificate.
Dr. Khuly, a quick call or fax regarding this wouldn't be out of line. The "purchasers" need to inform whatever resources available, along with "your" statement as to the other medical defects.
As far as vets "blowing the whistle" on other vets. Mistakes, oversights, are not reason to jump to anything. But surely, blatant scamming , blatant cruelty, would cause one to want to get a "bad apple" out of their bunch.
I work for a government agency where breach of trust, results in immediate loss of employment with full prosecution---no excuses, no second chances (because realistically, it isn't the 'first' time). If my best-friend co-worker is a thief, destroys property, etc. there is no protection amongst the co-workers, no turning a blind eye---it is goodbye to the bad apple that brings us down & causes shame and embarrassment.
Why was a clinic allowed to inhumanely euthanize my dog right in my face? Because they have been doing it for years, without penalty, with protection, and with no courageous group within their profession to stop it. Not only is this known within my own state, but also surrounding states it is known ,within the profession. I truly am sorry that this lowest of lows, brings shame to a profession as a whole.I will never understand why this grossly unethical behavior is tolerated.
But, "I" can't be silent, I can't morally keep the secret that so many before me have kept. No animal or human being deserves it. There isn't a good reason on earth for this to continue.
Barbara A. Albright February 4th, 2008 10:28:00 PM
Christopher, perhaps we are understanding different things by the phrase, "buying a puppy over the internet."
There are breeders who have websites that showcase their beautiful dogs, and may mention when they have a litter planned or on the way, and provide a means of contact for interested parties to begin the process.
And then there are breeders who websites have puppy pictures with prices beside them, and provide a means to place a deposit on or even purchase the puppy outright, before or even without any screening or even direct contact between breeder and buyer. A "feature" of these places is that they have the Mastercard, Visa, AmEx, Discover, PayPal logos on their sites. Screening consists of making sure the payment clears.
From what you describe, you fall into the first category--not "selling puppies over the internet" but attracting _potential_ buyers whom you then screen thoroughly. The poor Lab puppy in Dr. Patty's story comes from the second cateogry of breeder.
The difference between a book and a puppy, from the buyer's point of view--multiple. Books (the physical objects) are supposed to come from factories; dogs aren't. If the book falls apart after the first reading, you might feel annoyed. If the puppy arrives with major health problems, or quickly develops them, a humane person's first impulse will not be to send the puppy back to the place that created those problems. It is, in any case, physically and logistically _much_ _easier_ to send a book back than to send a puppy back. People have lots of experience buying books, and have a good ability because of that to estimate the reliability of the seller and/or minimize their risk when buying online. Most people have little or no experience buying dogs, and honestly do not know what the clues are that a particular breeder is reliable or unreliable.
One of the differences between buying a puppy online and going in person to the breeder's home is that, even with a relative lack of experience and knowledge, the average person becomes much better able to judge the honesty and reliability of the seller, and has the opportunity to see some things that, even without prior experience, might help them make a better decision, such as whether the dogs are living in filth or cleanlieness, whether the pup's mom is calm and friendly, or hyper and snarly. Without the background knowledge, they may not find the best breeders, but there are gradations of good and bad among BYBs, and they increase their chances of making a better choice rather than a worse one.
When I got Addy, I met her breeder in person the day I drove up to get Addy. But before that, I'd talked to her for hours on the phone, I'd talked to several other breeders most of whom were friends of hers, I'd met two of those breeders in person, we'd exchanged tons of email, she knew the history of each of my other pets, going back to my border collie pup from a neighbor's oops litter forty years ago. When I talk about "buying a puppy over the internet" I'm not talking about the breeders who grill their potential puppy buyers like that, no matter what the avenue of initial contact.
Lis February 5th, 2008 08:55:00 AM
Interesting question, Alex: A health certificate for interstate transport is a uniform document for all states. It *cannot* be signed if the animal has any parasitic or infectious diseases (except for fleas), even if the animal is currently being treated. It *can* be signed if the animal has some other disease process as long as it does not render the animal unsafe for transport. The standard of care, however, is to note these abnormalities (retained testicle, heart murmur, patellar luxations, etc.). But it's up to the vet and their ethical standards to make these abnormal findings known.
Furthermore, there's an additional twist which I did not know about until very recently: A vet cannot write: "vaccines administered by breeder" on a health certificate. If an animal to be transported is old enough to be vaccinated, the vaccine must have been administered by the veterinarian for it to appear on the health certificate.
In case anyone has any questions about this I have a document in my possession which I can fax to you in case you disbelieve it. I had to read it for myself before I understood all the specifications.
Most of us don't even know all these laws (the enforcement is lax in the extreme) but they're out there for all of us to know what our rights and responsibilities are whether we're signing these documents or buying/breeding pups.
Dr. Patty Khuly February 5th, 2008 09:31:00 AM
go to the pound pick out a dog thats going to be killed and bring her/him home in my opinion ther is absoultly no i repeat NO NEED to buy a pup when the sshelters are full of wonderfull animals
James hall February 5th, 2008 10:31:00 AM
The shelters are full of wonderful animals, James, but they're not full of wonderful animals for every person in every set of circumstances--and pretending that they are is a disservice to everyone--including the animals.
My local shelter is full of, mostly, pit mixes and Lab mixes. Great dogs, but they need a lot of exercise and activity. I'm a small, middle-aged woman with asthma and a bad knee, and I was looking for a walking companion. A WALKING companion, and a dog to cuddle on the couch with me. A dog I can take almost anywhere with me. Plus, I've been through the final illness of a dog almost too big for me to pick by myself, back when I was younger and healthier and had bigger dogs. That local shelter rarely has small dogs of the right activity level for me, and they get snapped up quickly. Add in the fact that I needed my dog to also be good with my two cats, and further that some of the small dogs, just as much as the large ones, were "must have fenced yard" dogs--no, sorry, the right dog for me was not in any of the local shelters. The "wonderful dogs"--genuinely wonderful dogs, for the right person--who are there, are dogs I couldn't provide a good home for.
Not a single one of those dogs is homeless because I got Addy from her breeder. If I hadn't gotten Addy, those dogs would _still_ be homeless, because I still wouldn't be able to take one of them.
Morever, Addy will never be homeless. If anything happens that means that I can't keep her, if I die and my family can't or won't keep her, she goes back to her breeder--who, like all _responsible_ breeders, truly takes responsibility for life for every puppy she brings into the world. Addy was available when I needed her, _because_ her breeder takes that responsibility, and took her back from her original buyer, when that person decided she wasn't a good match. Because of the breeder's contract, Addy never went into a shelter, a setting in which she would have done badly. If everyone got their dogs from responsible breeders, the shelter population would plummet within a few years. There would always be a small number of dogs and cats who hit the jackpot in terms of both breeder's and buyer's lives going bad at the same time, but not the huge numbers of homeless dogs and cats we have now.
Lis February 5th, 2008 10:56:00 AM
Couldn't agree with you more, Lis. We have a young daughter and when we went to the Geauga Humane Society to pick out a homeless pet about 9 months ago we really, really wanted a smaller dog but they are very popular and there were many older, larger dogs whose temperament around young children was open to debate - not a risk any parent would take.
So we ended up taking home a little black kitty who is just wonderful. But if we'd have insisted on a smaller dog either we'd have had to wait a long time or perhaps considered a breeder, neither option was one we were particularly keen on.
But I don't think any pet parent should be frowned upon or judged simply because she wants a purebred dog or cat. You can't punish ignorance if people genuinely have no idea that puppy mills are churning out unhealthy pets. I firmly believe that if more people knew about the risks, more would change their habits.
Alex Krooglik February 5th, 2008 11:34:00 AM
It's true that shelters are full, but that there isn't a dog for everyone there. Here in the Washington DC area, it is pretty competitive to get a small dog, since so many residents here are apartment dwellers, while the larger dogs languish. Getting a small, relatively young, relatively healthy dog at a shelter is very tough here.
Stefani February 5th, 2008 04:27:00 PM
It's probably easier to find a small, youngish dog in good health in a metropolitan area than it would be in a less dense area because there are more rescue groups, whether breed or general. A quick look at petfinder.com with a 20001 zip yields page after page of small dogs. Lots of beagles (maybe not so good for apartments) and some seniors, but also Chis, Llasa Apsos, Doxies, even a Papillon.
If you've made up your mind you want a breeder, than you just want one. Just like people want to buy new cars or houses, or whatever. It's a personal preference. As long as you've seriously considered the options.
owner of second-hand Honda, mutt, kitty, all going strong!
lin February 6th, 2008 12:27:00 AM
Quite frankly I don't think anything can be done to educate someone who is willing to spend thousands on a dog they've only seen a jpeg of who is too lazy to get in the car and go see it in person. If you can afford that kind of money, you can afford the cash it would take to visit in person. I wouldn't even buy a drum I couldn't put my hands on. A toaster yes. A dog no.
Perhaps, Dr. Patty, you could give the people in these kinds of cases a written report with all your findings, just in case they may want to pursue the issue, with relevant addys to do so. You're right you have no way of knowing if it was the vet or someone substituting a different dog. Makes you wonder if vets feel uneasy doing the certificates for these kinds of issues without having the dog microchipped so it can be verified it's the same dog.
"State licensing boards don’t often hear about these cases and the AVMA doesn’t have jurisdiction on legal issues (which are the domain of the licensing bodies)."
I don't know anything about the complaint process, but jurisdiction or not it is once again in the AVMA's purview to say "something" about this issue. Perhaps they could even suggest that vets do not do health certificates without a microchip number to verify the dog they did the exam on is the dog that ended up at the other end on the tarmac. Solving these kinds of problems and holding the vets who belong to their organization responsible for their actions is, quite frankly, at the heart of their purpose. Of course in reality I expect nothing else from the AVMA that I get from the AMA, which is mostly a bunch of hind parts covering.
CathyA February 6th, 2008 07:58:00 AM
Lin, I just did the same search for my zip code, as I've done in the past. Yes, pages and pages.
But each sucessive page is further and further from your home zip code. Many of the dogs are terriers (generally a bad match for my circumstances), miniature pinschers (likewise), beagles (that was a joke, right?). Corgis are a herding breed; they have many of the disadvantages (for me) that a breed that used to be my favorite, border collies, have for me now. Pugs aren't good walking companions. Dachshunds are generally not good with cats.
And that's before you get into the specifics of any of these individuals, many of whom are not suitable _for_ _me_ for various reasons.
It's really not as simple as there being "pages and pages" of dogs that come up when you plug in a particular zip code.
Lis February 6th, 2008 09:12:00 AM
"If you've made up your mind you want a breeder, than you just want one. Just like people want to buy new cars or houses, or whatever. It's a personal preference. As long as you've seriously considered the options.
owner of second-hand Honda, mutt, kitty, all going strong!"
Well said, Lin!
Jules February 6th, 2008 06:02:00 PM
This weekend has been an absolute NIGHTMARE for my family, consisting of me, husband and 3 young daughtes. We stupidly became the victime of a horrible woman named Sheila Rush from RUSH KENNELS in North Carollina. On Monday, I contacted this so-called breeder interested in purchasing a Yorkie puppy. They were as sweet as could be and told me they had an adorable healthy little boy for us. I did some research, but stupidly ignored the numerous complaints and horror stories associated with this person. I paid over the phone via credit card and was told the dog came with a 1 year health guarantee and he would be shipped by a reputable shippping company. Well, he arrived on Saturday, June 7,2008 near DEATH! There was NO health record, no crate, nothing except this poor pitiful 7 week old, 3 pound puppy who was obviously in horrific shape. In fact, the man that brought him to my door, said he was really concerned about the pup and I should bring it to a vet ASAP. I STUPIDLY signed some "contract" but added that the puppy was lethargic and not well. My daughters, 4 and 6 years old-13 year old was not at home, didn't undertand what was going on. I immediately rushed the puppy to the vet, where they grabbed him from me and immediately begin to try to save him. All this within 1 hour of getting the poor dog. My vet called the breeder to ask what they gave him- claimed only benadryl. They told me he was so small that they couldn't find his veins. After 1 hour of emergency care, oxygen, glucose, etc. they told me I had to bring the dog to a hospital . My girls and I were hysterical. By the time they gave me the info as to where to bring him, they sadly told me he didn't make it.!!!!!!
Upon calling the breeder, I was told their "vet" claimed he was healthy and they would not reimburse me for the puppy. Sheila Rush said if I sent a certified letter from my vet within 24 hours, she would have her "vet" check it out and if they agreed, would send me a new puppy. I am begging everyone who reads this to NEVER EVER deal with this amoral, unscrupulous person.
I would like to know if it is legal to ship a puppy at 7 weeks of age, weighing less then 3 pounds over state borders. I was told the puppy was 8 weeks and healthy by the kennel. Needless to say, I will do anything in my powers, including litigation, media contacts, etc. to try to get this woman out of business. What she did to my family and that poor little pup was monstrous. She should not be breeding cockroaches, much less poor innocent puppies. There are other horror stories about this woman, but delivering a puppy near death takes the cake. I wish I would have researched her more thoroughly. Anyone that defends this woman, including her "vet" are as disgraceful in my eyes as well. They should only have to see their little girls sobbing for a pitiful pup and maybe they would change their "minds"
Donna Levitt
NYC
Donna Levitt June 9th, 2008 10:21:00 AM
Add Commment