Wow, thank you so much for this post. This same conundrum has very much been on my mind for some time now. I would like to one day raise my own goats for milk and chickens for eggs because of the satisfaction of raising my own food, and the ability to have a special relationship with these animals. However, I don't feel comfortable in slaughtering them. It is not that I would think it would be gruesome or anything of the sort, it is that I would feel it unethical to kill a healthy young animal. I plan on becoming a vet and I just can't imagine spending all day at working trying my hardest to save the life of an animal, then coming home and killing my completely healthy 'livestock'. Because of the way animals are treated in our society I am currently a vegan. But, I would love to have my own milk and eggs-ones I know are raised humanely and loved. I have always wanted a farm and have been searching out animal options that would fit in well with my idea of a 'humane coexistence'. To date, however, the only thing I have come up with is raising alpacas :S
Please keep us updated on this one Dr. K, I'm very interested to see what you decide. Thank you for another thought-provoking post!

Julia May 24th, 2008 11:50:00 AM

Dr. Khuly, I view your dilemma as being similar to mine in my "youth". Not so much that you feel slaughter is against your principles/beliefs---but your wondering if emotional attachment to an animal will prevent you from doing so. After all, the animal will not be useful to slaughter at birth, but after a long period of care, feeding, and interaction. Obviously the animal will be young and healthy.

"euthansia" is defined in AVMA guidelines for every species; it was my impression that humane (including slaughter---definition "murderous,violent,bloody") is defined as a swift state of unconsciousness, and accomplished by various means. It was my impression by reading those guidelines, that although one may view a particular "physical" act as brutal, such as captive-bolt, gunshot, etc., it may be in fact, the humane and preferable method of death.

The gas chamber method did not appear as "ideal"for the animal, nor entirely safe.

Surely there must be people you could contact, whether licensed or not, that are "expert and skilled" in this form of death and know how to minimize pre-death distress & restraint.

I look forward to reading and pictures of the birthing & goat's milk!

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire May 24th, 2008 12:42:00 PM

I'm going to have this conundrum in a couple of years-I know that food animals raised by me would have a far higher welfare standard than those commercially, but I'm not sure I could do the actual killing. How about raising them for slaughter, but getting someone else to do the actual slaughtering, and see how you feel then?

Sian May 24th, 2008 01:24:00 PM

I do understand your hesitation!

But, you don't have to do it yourself. No one would think any less of you if you didn't actively participate in the final act. What you can do is find a place that will perform the needed tasks in a manner you are comfortable with. (Or as comfortable as you can be...)

For me, it is a task I would want to be VERY skilled in, and I'd not think twice about letting another professional handle it.

Cindy May 24th, 2008 01:48:00 PM

Seems to me that finding a more aesthetically pleasing stunning method really does not make the process all that less gruesome. You still have exsanguination, viscera removal, skinning, etc. to look forward to. Perhaps the surgeon finds the prospect of those tasks less gruesome than I do.

Bill May 24th, 2008 02:02:00 PM

Thanks, everyone! To Bill: I have no issues with the gruesomeness of the exsanguination, evisceration, etc. I could use a captive bolt device but it's not safe to keep one with kids around (like keeping a gun). Like Barbara says, I guess I'm mostly worried about the emotional attachment I'll have. Everything else is secondary and yet I'm focusing on the death method perhaps to distract me from the real issue...

Also, I believe in minimizing the stess an animal feels during transport (arguably the most stressful component of slaughter). If I can get away with having it done at home...by me or someone else...I think that would go a long way towards getting the most humane slaughter possible for my creatures.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2008 07:58:00 PM

Here in Washington State (about as far from you as one can be) we have Mike's Mobile Slaughter. We use them for the animals we buy (and eat) that were raised by the 4-H kids. Mike's is also involved in 4-H, know how the kids care for the animals, and care about the animals themselves. They have the equipment with them to put down an anima on site, drain and eviscerate them, and do the cut and wrap for freezer storage.

I grew up eating steers I knew (petted, named and hand-fed), and my uncle the butcher would come out to our farm and do the deed. I knew early on the differencce between food and pets, was very thankful to the steers whenever I ate (and knew which one it was), but couldn't watch. I stopped eating meat entirely when I left home because the meat from the supermaarket wasn't worth eating, and was very happy to find that the 4-H animals taste as I remember meat should.

Carol PW May 24th, 2008 11:26:00 PM

I agree that slaughter is something that is best done by someone who does it all the time, and that perceived "brutality" of a method does not necessarily correlate to how humane the death is.

I have not personally slaughtered a mammal larger than a rabbit, but I've shot a few deer, and I've witnessed large animals being slaughtered, and being handled at the slaughterhouse. The deer died much more humanely.

I also think you are spot-on in wanting to reduce stress in transport. The transport and handling at the slaughterhouse can be very rough on animals, depending on the skill with which it is done.

But keep in mind that you want to avoid stressing the other animals; you'll need a place to do the deed where the other critters won't be affected.

I am under the impression that goats of dairy breeds don't have much meat to speak of. But wethered bucks can make good pets and pack animals. So there's that option -- the cop out.

H Houlahan May 25th, 2008 01:03:00 AM

How about sidestepping the issue completely and inducing lactation artificially and bypass the whole progeny issue? See http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1313224391.html

I could only find this abstract but you probably have better access to this info anyway.

Alison May 25th, 2008 02:20:00 AM

Alison: Did you have to add a wrench to my conundrum? Darn you educated masses!

Carol P: Yeah, another vet was telling me about this. Unfortunately, I don't live in an agricultural area where these folks work. We have precious little animal agriculture anywhere around these parts--just lots of fruit and veggies (and they're much easier to slaughter).

Dr. Patty Khuly May 25th, 2008 08:47:00 AM

A friend of mine talked about being with her neighbor when he went out to slaughter one of his cows. They walked calmly among the cows who were also calm, stopping to talk to one or another cow along the way. He was so smooth when he came to the selected cow that my friend was surprised to see the cow's knees buckle after he shot it with the bolt. The other cows barely noticed and didn't seem upset. My friend said it was truly a beautiful death.

kabbage May 25th, 2008 09:30:00 AM

What about pressure over both carotids just before the deed is done? I don't know enough about this (that's why I'm asking), but would it induce unconsciousness long enough that they'd be unconscious the entire time? Would they begin to struggle against the pressure against the carotids, or just get sleepy?

Regarding the induced lactation; I read an article that recommended human mothers bringing back their milk during disasters when there's no formula available, or inducing a wetnurse. IIRC, it stated that although it was slightly possible to induce lactation in mothers that had never delivered, they believed inducing mothers that had delivered had a lot better chance of re-inducing their milk.

But since some men (natural-born, not surgically re-gendered) have managed to induce lactation, I'd bet it's not as impossible to induce females that haven't delivered in the past.

Sherri May 25th, 2008 10:54:00 AM

If the emotional issue is the main issue, then . . . . maybe you should consider the option of not doing it at all.

I did some research on goats some years ago as a part of my endless daydreaming about having one as a pet someday. I learned through that research how truly problematic male goats can be to keep. (eeewww, all that spraying/urinating around ewwww). But isn't there something surgically that can be done to keep them from doing that?

Or if you must, I think it is OK to just euthanize the goat the way you do your patients. Obviously you could not eat him then, but you could bury him. I realize that you are trying to get your courage up to do this to prove to yourself that you can kill your own food, but once you think of him as a pet -- I'm not sure a person should feel obligated to get used to killing pets for food.

I know that I am a hypocrite -- I eat chicken and I don't kill them myself. I know if I had to kill my own food, I would be vegetarian. (not vegan, I have no problem taking eggs . . . ) And that I guess makes me both a wussy and a hypocrite, so perhaps I will go veggie for the third time in my life soon (I have done it twice for a total of 4 years basically because of this conundrum of feeling if I can't kill it I shouldn't eat it. Ah, but a buffalo chicken wing did in my last stint as a veggie. Still, I never resumed eating either beef or pork, so it's only chickens that I have guilt over).

I probably woudn't feel this way if I grew up like my mom, watching her grandfather behead the evening meal (chickens). That method sounded so much more human than both the lives and deaths of chickens today. Matilda is hanging out on the farm pecking at the ground and cavorting with the other hens, when suddenly she is carried over to the stump -- "Matilda, look over there!" CHOP! It's all over. Perhaps under the right circumstances I could behead a chicken. But anything larger that has to have a bolt put through its head? Nah, I couldn't do it. I heard them describe Hallal meat killing on the radio while driving and I nearly crashed from the tears in my eyes.

Once I loved it, I definitely couldn't kill it for food.

Stefani May 25th, 2008 01:45:00 PM

I didn't know that one would just kill the males. Is it possible that she would give birth to all males? Would you be ready to put down all her offspring? Yikes -I don't think I could do it.

Lyn May 25th, 2008 02:06:00 PM

yep, just as i suspected, i am a city girl to the highest degree. the very thought of putting TLC into an animal that would be slaughtered just about breaks my heart. as i was reading this the only thing i could think of was the cartoon version of Charlotte's Web. ;)

charity May 25th, 2008 05:22:00 PM

I have the same issue on a smaller level. I feed my cats whole mice,( and my corn snake) and I order them from the internet frozen. But they are expensive and I have been thinking about raising them myself and killing them and feeding them fresh...but I have had mice as pets and I am not sure I could do it. I have thought about the techniques, mainly putting them in the freezer or whacking them on the kitchen counter (not my idea, suggested by the previous owner of my corn snake) But...ew...

and does that make me a bad person because I eat meat all the time and feed my cats meat all the time, but I don't want to kill it myself...I could kill a chicken I think, but I have a problem with mice...sigh...I totally understand your goat dilemma.

do you have to breed the goat only once? or does she need to have babies frequently to be able to keep milking her?

LorriM May 26th, 2008 12:26:00 AM

LorrieM, your instincts are correct. I both have had pet mice, and have had to euthanize mice. For euthanization, I prefer the more expensive injectable method, when possible. (Not possible for food.)

Freezing an animal to death is inhumane, fish fanciers don't even really recommend that anymore. The whole point of euthanasia is to produce a rapid and painless death. Freezing accomplishes neither of those goals. (I think this fact is ignored by folks who suggest it because you don't have to watch the mice in the freezer die badly.)

While flash freezing very tiny frogs or pinkies (think Hans and carbonite) might have once been an accepted practice, individual's home freezers were never appropriate for this method. The whack method could probably backfire as badly as snap traps often do. Not pleasant if you like mice.

Dr. Khuly, if you are within city limits you may not be able to use a mobile slaughter service due to public health laws, or slaughter them yourself, for that matter. I'd check into that so you know your options. (I once knew someone who raised rabbits for meat, neighbors got upset, social and legal discord happened.)

Compcat May 26th, 2008 02:21:00 AM

"H" has the perfect solution, at least for the first go around. If anyone is prepared for a complicated birthing of Poppy & Tulip, you are. You could think of yourself as a goat "breeder"---or if that word isn't palatable, be a "goat fancier" and place the little buck(s) on neuter contracts as pets (don't they have little horns too?) with a life-time return policy.

Then if the placement doesn't work out, or if the family should tire of Mr. Wether-bee, you would have no "real" emotional attachment, unless of course, you receive cards, letters, and pictures of how nice and enjoyed he is---then you might have an element of "breeder's pride".

Definitely buys time, and allows for those delectable milk products.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire May 26th, 2008 03:07:00 PM

You've nicely described why I could not be a farmer. I'd have the oldest, friendliest farm animals around - not that they live that long - all neutered and trained to come when called.

It's a different headspace, raising animals for food.

As pointed out above, find a reputalbe abbatoir (they exist) and send them there. There's always kosher or halal too.

Good luck with your dilemma.

Caveat May 26th, 2008 08:43:00 PM

Have you heard of Temple Grandin? Here's her website on humane slaughter (I prefer the word "sacrifice", meaning something valuable is given up). She was a pioneer.
http://www.grandin.com/
there are references in each section too, so she has research support. I don't see anything specific to goats there. Nor do I see any consideration of the pet-human connection. I can speak to this. We have raised chickens and cow for meat. The chickens were never treated like "pets", you have to dissociate them in your mind as livestock. Hopefully you will be able to draw this mental line or distinction, because it makes all the difference.

Margaret May 27th, 2008 08:07:00 PM

One thing I would be concerned about if you slaughter your own goats is the impact on your son and his friends and his relationships with others generally. I have heard of people who raise and kill their own guinea pigs for food – sounds all very practical, environmentally sound (they are amongst the most efficient converters of feed to meat) and ethical – if you are going to eat meat you should be prepared to look it in the eye first. But I’d never even remotely consider doing it here in the suburbs with 4 teenage kids at home – even if they could come to understand and accept what was going on they would surely have a lot of problems if anyone else found out about it.

No problems in a rural area but in suburbia where everyone gets their meat from the supermarket I don't think it would go down well at all.

Alison May 28th, 2008 01:15:00 AM

Alison: Interesting point. I know 4-H kids who've managed well after the experience of raising and keeping a quarter of their meaty spoils in a dedicated freezer. They seem to make good adults, well-educated and introspective about their food (one a partial vegetarian because she can't abide modern slaughter techniques). I believe that anything that makes you think more deeply about where your food comes from can't be a bad thing.

Still, I don't think a ten year-old suburban kid raised in this culture is quite prepared to see an animal he cared for slaughtered before his eyes. Good point.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 28th, 2008 08:56:00 AM

My concern would be having the correct facilities to slaughter and properly hang and butcher said goat. Not sure if you've ever seen a medium sized mammal get slaughtered, but the mess is... well, it's something quite intense to deal with, best dealt with in a slaughter room with four cement walls, a cement slanted floor with a drain in the middle.

The mess left can also attract undesirables. I know what kind of wildlife it attracts here in Canada, which is certainly why we rely on professionals when possible (or those yokels among us who have dedicated areas for this type of thing) I can only imagine the meat-eating critters in Miami that may be enticed by the smell of goat blood and entrails.

Are you prepared for the mess, I guess is what I'm asking. And not from a surgeon's standpoint... from a homeowner's standpoint! Not to mention, what about your local by-laws? Do they allow slaughter of animals in your area? I can only imagine the stories that will fly when the neighbors hear that that vet down the street with the goat in the back yard is outside now skinning baby goats...

I agree with a previous poster as well.. this is something I would want a professional to do. Search out an interview a professional that you're comfortable with. Have you considered finding a Kosher butcher? I'm sure Miami is not a hard place to find one. You're sure to have a well-treated goat there.

I'm just saying... what would happen if something went wrong? If the goat had some crazy reaction to the gas, or didn't die right away... have you ever seen an animal slaughtered? If you feel the need to be part of it, insist on being present. You don't actually have to wield the sword to prove your bravery and conviction, if you know what I mean. The important part is that that goat, his mom, his kin, and all the goats after him will have been treated with love, respect and kindness, right up to and including their death. But that doesn't place the responsibility on YOU to perform the last rights.

One final note of this disturbingly long post (sorry, former farm girl), I agree with the previous poster about exposing your son to this. To watch his pet killed, bled out, skinned and eviscerated, and then served on a platter may be all too much. Even if not now, it may pop up down the road. 4H kids generally do NOT slaughter the animals they care for. They use them for shows, and learn to care for them. When they become too old, or the child wants to move on to a larger animal, the parent takes care of the critter, and provides the next one (from chicken to rabbit, to goat, to pony, to cow, etc). It's only in their teenage years that they are exposed to such things, and you also need to remember that these are children who have grown up in this environment their entire lives. These are not children who have purchased food from the local Safeway for twelve years, and then suddenly start to slaughter their own pets for food. I'm not saying you won't properly prepare your son emotionally for the experience, but in my humble and honest opinion, even as a farm child, it left scars on me, and I was born around it.

kim May 28th, 2008 09:47:00 AM

Sorry, Dr. Patty, I wasn't suggesting that you would make your son watch you kill the goat, but the kid is going to know who killed it. That's got to be a little unsettling for a child, to know that his mother is capable of walking out back and eviscerating the family pet. I'm sorry, I know that sounded way harsher than it was meant to, I've eviscerated many things in the name of the meat eaters ;O) but I think an explanation of where you've sent the goat and what's being done (minus the grotesque bits, of course, emphasis on the humane parts for now) will go over better.

We had a cow at a farm I worked at, and silly children (we were 11 or so) we named her. It was a mom and pop dairy operation, and when the cows could no longer produce, they were slaughtered and eaten. It wasn't Grade AA Alberta beef or anything, but it was hormone and antibiotic free (you can't put anything in a dairy cow) and we knew how they had been raised and had in fact birthed many of them ourselves. This one in particular followed us around, let us sit on her in the pasture, you get the idea. Placid cow. Friendly cow. Pet cow, as far as we were concerned.

One day we get a quarter of beef delivered to the house (not an unusual occasion, the farm slaughtered more beef than it can consume, and because it's dairy beef you really can't sell it so it's usually either bartered or sold cheap to friends) and the next day we went to the farm and our cow was missing. Yep, she was in our freezer. I didn't eat beef unless I was outside of town for well over a year. They may have well fried up the cat while they were at it, we were so upset. We were both 4H members, were both well aware of what happened to these animals, had even been to the slaughter house while they were butchering, standing there with buckets, catching bones for the dogs, not bothered by any of it. But this was a cow that we KNEW.

I don't know how much interest your son has in your goats, but after the goat in the bed story it's obvious they're a part of the family. Some might assume that as a boy he won't care what's going on in the back yard with some goats, blah, blah... but have you ever seen a newborn goat? Puppies, kittens... they got nothin on a newborn baby goat.

Once again, my post script has turned into yet another rambling blather, so here it is in short. I know how horribly betrayed I felt when OUR cow was slaughtered. I felt the need to share this with you to show you that even those of us who consider this normal everyday behavior are affected by it. By the way, the other have of the OUR was a boy... who cried for almost a week after she was slaughtered. His parents were flabbergasted. He killed his own chickens on a monthly basis. But they were food, not a pet.

kim May 28th, 2008 10:08:00 AM

I'm a little late on the discussion, but wanted to chime in.

I lived on a small farm for about 10 years (renting an apartment). They raised pygmy goats for 4-H. Now, I know pygmies aren't meat animals, but speaking from personal experience, I don't think any one of us involved with these lovely goaties could have slaughtered or eaten them! (They also had chickens - used only the eggs. They sold baby goats that they didn't use for their own projects - usually to other 4-H families.)

I understand that many 4-H kids do raise meat animals as their projects. I wonder how they do it. I am not a vegetarian, but I think I probably should be! I couldn't put that much love and care into an animal only to know that it will be slaughtered.

I think you have to find what is right for you. For me, I couldn't do it. Those goats were such loving creatures - almost like dogs! Maybe meat goats are different?!

Tammy May 28th, 2008 12:00:00 PM

Tammy: Nope. Meat goats are just as cute and silly.

Kim: Wow. Lots of issues here. Yep. I've seen the slaughterhouse thing--been there, done that. I guess that's why I'm looking for a better way. I've emailed my local "local foods" maven who runs our CSA. Hoping she'll be able to put me in touch with the right folks. Though I'll not be butchering them (I have a good butcher already who will take on this job) I was still thinking I wouldn't want my young 'uns to travel. I'll keep you posted.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 28th, 2008 08:05:00 PM

I have 3 dairy goats (a doe in milk, last year's kid, and a purchased kid from this spring) and stuggle with the same issue. On year one we had twins - kept the doe and sold the buck at 3 months for meat. Although everything I've read said that I could only milk the doe for 10 months on average, I elected not to breed her last fall. I am hoping to minimize animals created and still meet my needs. She's over 1 year into her lactation and still getting 1/2 gallon daily - enough for my family's consumption. I acknowledge that I can not keep even all the doe kids from what I hope will be years of keeping and milking goats. I hope in the future to find homes for does I can not keep - preferably with families who want to milk, too - and am leaning toward hiring a professional to come slaughter bucks here (I also hate the idea of moving them) and then having them butchered off premesis. For me knowing that an animal was raised, loved, and had a happy life is more important than who actually does the killing. Alas, I just don't have the heart to do it.

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