Ahhh, the dreaded declaw procedure. Young vets have emailed me after reading my posts on this feline claw removal surgery to ask me how I convinced my employers to go easy on me when it comes to declaws. Last weekend’s correspondent was no different—except this time I think I convinced him to keep an otherwise wonderful job by taking my advice on the subject.
So you know, more small animal veterinary graduates are refusing to participate in cat declaws than ever before. Those who outright refuse are still in the minority, but many more are likely to take a jaundiced view of lopping off the last knuckle of a cat’s “fingertips.”
We simply prefer not to do it—if at all possible. We prefer to confine our skills in this area to situations in which every other alternative has been ruled out and where the cat absolutely requires the procedure to keep her home.
Dr. B (let’s agree to call him) is a recent graduate. He works heavy hours at a relatively large, high-end hospital where all the associates are expected to produce a certain amount of income and tackle all cases, regardless of what comes their way…declaws included.
When he accepted the job he’d had declaw misgivings but didn’t voice them for fear of losing out on the only opportunity available in his girlfriend’s town—a good job by all objective measures. Once inside, however, he realized how much he couldn’t tolerate the hospital’s policy in favor of indiscriminate declaws.
Dr. B accepted the need for some declaw procedures but felt his patients deserved a more advanced pain protocol. He’d also been chided for “talking clients out of it,” with lengthy discussions on alternatives, pain control, declawing complications and the importance of aftercare. The staff called him the “declaw deal killer,” a moniker which earned him a talking-to from his boss.
Though the job was great by all other standards, Dr. B saw the declaw in this hospital as a “holdover” from the old ways of doing things. But he couldn’t get his boss to see things his way in this very dog-centric practice.
“What do I do? I don’t want to leave a great job over just one issue everyone seems to disagree with me on?”
My take:
1-Just because you disagree with the practice doesn’t mean tens of thousands of other veterinarians and technicians don’t agree with you. We’ve got your back.
2-Every practice deserves to have the input of an associate willing to push the envelope of at least one or two issues. And finally, the clincher…
3-Instead of charging $150 for a declaw like some practices do, tally up all the pain control bells and whistles every declaw deserves...to the tune of $450 (which includes 3 days of boarding so cats suffer fewer declaw complications).
Sure, it might take longer to explain and some clients will balk, but…
a) your boss will marvel at your ability to take the initiative on growing your practice’s profits. Each and every declaw will be far more profitable, thereby making up for the volume of procedures you didn’t perform.
b) you’ll be able to sleep at night knowing you’re practicing the best possible declaw on fewer cats with far more informed clients in tow.
Dr. B loved the idea. He thought it might even fly. He was working on a formal proposal for his practice when he emailed me for the last time.
A $450 declaw may sound steep to you but at this price it’s still a bargain when you consider how important it is to provide the best care possible for a surgical procedure with ten incisions and a high degree of pain. It’s becoming standard practice for hospitals across the country to up-charge declaws with mandatory value-added line items for pain control. All I have to say to that is…it’s about time.
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If I absolutely had to declaw a cat - and I would exhaust every other measure first - I would pay through the nose to have it done right and know that my cat received the best care possible. I'm normally one of those annoying pet parents who shop for the best price possible but when it comes to amputating toes, essentially, I want it to be as pain free as possible for the poor stubborn kitty who won't accept any of the non surgical alternatives.
You gave the young man good advice! I hope you hear from him when his proposal is accepted and goes into effect at his clinic.
Meri Gray September 15th, 2008 12:01:00 PM
That is so disgusting, isn´t it? To do declawing because it´s a big business. Only in America, I have to say, I´m afraid. No wonder the rest of the world sees the US and its citizens as money grabbing, greedy b*stards.... Not that I would generalise - there are enough people in the US who aren´t like that, and also enough who are anti-declawing, but sadly, especially the latter, are very much in the minority.
Where I come from (Europe) declawing is illegal, full stop. And that´s what it should be in the US/Canada (and anywhere else for that matter) as well. If it wasn´t such a biiiiiig profit, ey? (sarcasm).
I am not going to add anything that you already know about the complications, implications and psychological/physical side of declawing a cat, but I want to compliment you on your good thinking about raising the price of the declaw procedure, which is, in a small way, a good way to deter most people from going ahead with it. It´s a good idea. Small changes like this are going to go a long way eventually to slowly phase out the procedure altogether, and the next generation will not grow up thinking that "declawing is alright", but maybe "declawing is only for the rich"? Or maybe even "declawing is ILLEGAL" - if we keep on working on it.
Barbarella Buchner September 15th, 2008 01:37:00 PM
I like your compromise Dr. Patty. I was worried to think I hadn't heard of declawing-and what I would do when I qualify-then very relieved to read the above comment, that it's illegal in europe. What a horrible thing it is.
Sian September 15th, 2008 01:43:00 PM
I've never declawed a cat of mine, though I have one I adopted as an adult who had been declawed. I don't know for sure that it's the declawing that caused it, but he has some very particular behavioral issues that I've never seen in any of my other cats. He's a big sweetie most of the time, but is WAY too inclined to bite. Fortunately he does give warning nips, so I don't feel afraid of him, but I would be very concerned if he had to be re-homed for any reason. Someone who isn't sensitive to or willfully ignores his clues could end up thinking he was vicious.
Another of my cats recently had a toe amputation (the whole toe) to get rid of a growth that was fully wrapped around the bone, already huge and growing, threatening to take over his whole foot. He's fine now, and it's very nearly completely healed, but after seeing what he's gone through with that, I can't imagine putting an animal through that times ten.
Let's hope that in another generation, if not sooner, no young vets will even need to confront this issue. I'm glad you could offer this young man an idea that might make it possible for him to keep his job AND help cats--by reducing the number of declaws and by offering better care to those whose people insist on the procedure.
Judy September 15th, 2008 02:06:00 PM
Dr. K - I really love your approach to the problem. For every principled doctor who leaves a practice rather than be forced to declaw, I can only imagine there's another one lining up to take his (or her) place. Working within the system is what will bring about change! And this young vet will be improving the care for those unfortunate kitties whose owners insist on the procedure at the same time. I too hope we hear the results of his proposal.
The only reason I can see for a declaw would be if there were some medical condition that necessitated amputation for the overall health of the cat (if such a condition even exists). Otherwise, if an owner just wants a cat that can't claw the furniture, I'd advise finding an already declawed cat in a shelter that needs a loving home. I mean, radical surgery for the sake of a sofa? Do these people amputate their kids' hands when Junior smashes dishes and colors on the wall?
Sandy September 15th, 2008 03:41:00 PM
While for the most part I agree that declawing a cat is a horrendous thing to do, I think that it should still be an option for people who have exhausted all other avenues.
For example, people with compromised immune systems who live with and love cats that are prone to scratching may not be able to solve that problem any other way and consequently put themselves at risk by keeping the scratch prone cat.
If and ONLY IF, the choice was between a cat being abandoned or a declaw I would encourage a declaw.
Shannon September 15th, 2008 04:00:00 PM
I've had major back surgery, and I know just how much bone pain hurts. If I had the first joints of all my toes amputated and I still had to walk around on tiptoe all day, I'd either never move or be constantly in tears. That's basically what you're asking a declawed cat to do; and with that in mind, I think it would be barbaric to refuse pain control just to save a few dollars or stint on proper wound care and maintenance that can speed the healing process.
I'm by no means a wealthy woman, but I would NEVER stint on pain management for any of my animals, no matter what kind of surgery they had. I gladly paid extra for my cats' spays so they could have pain medication and constant appropriate monitoring, and when my 12-year-old cat has to have her dental next year, she'll get pain management too if the vet recommends it.
janea September 15th, 2008 04:40:00 PM
Re. Shannon´s comment:
People with a "compromised immunue system" (like myself I might add due to medication for severe rheumatoid arthritis) should either NOT have cats or live with the consequences (which I do, but luckily my little rascals are rather gentle and I hardly ever get scratched). Declawing for *that* reason is just as barbaric as doing it for furniture´s sake. Get a dog or a rabbit, but please leave the cat with its claws!
Shannon also said:
"If and ONLY IF, the choice was between a cat being abandoned or a declaw I would encourage a declaw."
My answer: Luckily, we don´t even *have* that option in Europe, and I am so glad to live in a country where declawing is illegal. We REHOME abandoned cats WITH their claws intact over here.
Barbarella Buchner September 15th, 2008 06:08:00 PM
There are plenty of non declaw solutions for people with compromised immune systems. My son had cancer and chemo and Neutropenia and we never declawed our cats, or kept them away from him, or even glued nail caps on them...
there are a very few organ transplant patients that might have to have nail caps put on their cats, but there is NO good reason for a declaw and I'd wager that 99% of them are NOT done for the owner's medical problems.
It is inexcusable and having several rescue declaws over the years, I can confirm that they WILL bite sooner than a non declaw cat in a stressful situation.
It needs to be illegal in this country as well. People can just "get over" that upholstery...<lol>
LorriM September 15th, 2008 06:42:00 PM
I have never had a declawed cat, nor advocate it. But curiously, is it entirely diffrent than dewclaw removal on a puppy? Just curious.
Perhaps the puppy dewclaw removal can be $90---I'm also wondering why Dr. B. couldn't have made up the income & work in another more palatable way----perhaps trade a procedure with another vet that is on the bottom of their wish list?
And to current cat owners, don't those glue-on rubber tips work? Sort of like fake nails for humans?
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 15th, 2008 07:01:00 PM
Won't clients just seek out other places that will meet their surgery and price needs? I know how much price-shopping goes on for spays/neuters. I don't doubt that there's much difference for declaws.
katie September 15th, 2008 07:19:00 PM
This is a great compromise, Dr. Patty. It scares me when vets start to just refuse to perform surgical procedures... but it scares me even more when procedures are made illegal. Decisions about pet care and surgery should be left between the pet owner and the licensed veterinarian. I totally agree that most declaws are unnecessary but in most cases the owners just haven't been properly educated about the procedure, or its ramifications (one of which IS the cat being more likely to bite). They may think it's just another thing that you "do" to a pet like getting it spayed or castrated. Which incidentally are also painful surgical procedures that - when you think of it - are mostly done for the convenience of their owners. i.e. it takes extra care, knowledge and effort to responsibly maintain an intact pet.
If the other options have been tried and failed and the only alternative to declawing is keeping the cat outdoors or getting rid of it, I for one TOTALLY support the declaw. Anyone who has volunteered with a cat rescue here in the US knows how extremely difficult it is to rehome a cat - that is just not a realistic option.
Barb September 15th, 2008 07:31:00 PM
In response to Barbarella,
As someone who does extensive work in rescue, I have to say that unfortunately their are too many stray cats and not enough spare homes. In an ideal world yes, cats wouldn't scratch or people wouldn't get sick or whatever. Unfortunately for us and the animals we love, we don't live in an ideal world and sometimes, in my perspective, a declaw is the lesser of two evils.
And I feel the need to clarify. I have two cats of my own, adopted as 'failed fosters'. Both have all their claws and I actively discourage people around me from doing it (i.e. my aunt and I routinely argue about the merits of declaws and I stand by the 'only when its the lesser of two evils stance).
I would never declaw my own cats but unfortunately in some extreme circumstances I can see its merit.
Shannon September 15th, 2008 07:51:00 PM
I'll confess- I haven't personally tried the rubber nail caps, but I can pretty much guarantee that Nick would have them all off within the day (he's a big nail-gnawer as it is, especially when he's bored).. and there's no way you would ever be able to get them on Tyson while he was conscious. Thomas would probably wear them sans incident, but he's not much of a scratcher.
My three all have their claws intact, despite the fact that one has issues in the scratching department- and is so large that his nails (even when trimmed down to nubs) have a tendency to put holes in clothing should you attempt to pick him up. He's also pretty adept at wreaking havoc with said nubs when the mood strikes him. I don't appreciate the behavior, but I can deal. Nick takes precedence over the couch.. even if it means I'm stuck with the ratty 60's-era monstrosity until his passing (and it pretty much does). Oh well, I can deal.
That said, as opposed as I am to declawing, I'm also opposed to the idea of blanket illegalization. Though most declaws-on-demand admittedly fail to qualify, I do think that there are instances (albeit rare) in which declawing can be of benefit.
It may not be an ideal situation, but, overpopulation being what it is, I would also rather see a problem scratcher declawed than euthanized.. and, odds are, given the sheer number of cats in our area shelters, that's probably what's going to happen if his owner surrenders him. (Either that, or some other less desirable prospect is going to wind up getting the needle. Who benefits?)
I would, however, like to see better attention to pain control, and more honesty about what exactly the procedure entails- (I know a number of owners who say they never would have opted for the surgery if they'd understood what was going to happen). I'd also like to see a stronger focus on non-surgical means of prevention and correction of scratching issues, as well as discouragement of preemptive surgery on cats who don't exhibit problem behaviors. Declawing should never be the first line of defense, it should be an option of last resort.
Additionally.. for those with concerns about furniture, claw-related injuries and the like, it doesn't necessarily have to come down to "deal with it" or "get a hamster"- there are plenty of wonderful shelter felines out there who have already been declawed.
Just my two cents. :)
Twinkie Maven September 15th, 2008 08:17:00 PM
Oh, geez....Not the dreaded declaw debate. I love your approach and think it is great. But I can bet you no one will post here that would admit to declawing their cat because of the attitudes people have. Mine were already declawed when I got them...so can't report on what care they got. But I do like your idea.
Jenny September 15th, 2008 09:08:00 PM
My very first cat as an adult was declawed. I was living with my grandmother at the time after coming home from the military and it was one of her stipulations. I pciked the cat up from the shelter I adopted her from and took her to the vet for the surgery. She never had behavior issues from it but she was an only cat for a long time. (and I had her for 14 years, adopted as an adult so we never knew how old she really was)
In my defense I had no idea what I was really doing. When I started working at a vet and saw it being done I vowed never to do it to another cat I owned again. (and I felt horrible I had done that to her)
During the time I had a pet related show on local cable access I did a piece on the subject INCLUDING video of the actual surgery so people could see for themselves what was involved. (thankfully my producer was on my side) We caught some flack for it from some but many others thanked us for showing it.
You can't do better unless you know better. I think many people have no idea what they are really doing. Besides, if a vet will do it, why would the cat owner consider it a bad thing?
Marie September 15th, 2008 10:28:00 PM
Does anybody else remember the old joke that ends, "What sort of a girl do you think I am?" The punch line is, "We have already established that, now we are just haggling about the price." What happened to the idealism of youth?
Cy Nic September 15th, 2008 11:19:00 PM
I happened across this article. I agree with one of the above posters that not many people would admit to declawing their cats based on the overwhelming bias against it.
I work at a vet hospital and I own 8 cats. All the cats were either very malnourished, flea infested strays from my yard, or unwanted very young (read bottle feeding) kittens near death if not taken in and cared for immediately.
I'll be one to speak out on behalf of the current minority.
All 8 of these cats are front paw declawed. 1 showed up already declawed/spayed, 1 I took to another vet for the surgery (I did not work for the vet hospital then), the remaining 6 I was present for each surgery on them and monitored their recovery.
None of the 7 that I had declawed came home with additional meds (all were overnight stays).
Surgery Complications....
1 had a 'complication' from licking one of her toes causing a slight infection and required a week of Amoxidrops with not a single problem since then. (Same one also licked her spay incision requiring the same treatment- spay was done later than the declaw).
1 would not stay 'quiet' despite confinement and did manage to get one of his declaw incisions opened up to bleed a little a couple days after the surgery. Pressure with a towel, and holding him still stopped the bleeding. He did not get any infection or have further problems afterwards.
The remainder had absolutely no complications at all.
Arthritis.....
1 has arthritis, she got it when she was 14 years old and it's in her hips not her toes per xrays. She has no stiffness in her toes at all and she's now 17!
No arthritis or stiff toes in any of the others.
Biting....
2 cats play bite ONLY when you wrestle with them with your hand or foot and will stop biting on verbal command. (I do NOT encourage most people to wrestle with cats because it does lead to biting and many cats don't respond to verbal stop commands)
1 cat is a Torti, need I say more? She can go from being very affectionate to a quick nip and back again before you can blink if she's in her 'Torti-tude' mood. Biting however is still a rare event for even her though.
The 5 remaining cats either do not bite at all under any circumstances, or only bite if you are doing something to them that hurts alot (blood draws etc.) which is normal behavior.
Litterbox...
2 have had litterbox misshaps a few times, each time cause by a medical problem (UTI, constipation) and both resolved upon proper treatment for the problem.
The rest have had no litterbox misshaps at all.
All 8 cats are indoor cats that only go out on a leash or in the custom made cat enclosure supervised.
All are capable of climbing a tree (albiet a bit slower and clumsy compared to clawed cats) and it's a good thing I have a leash to be able to get them back down before they get too high up.
I rent, and both homes I have lived in have had previous tenants that had cats that were allowed to claw up the house, and had litter box problems, all previous tenants had clawed cats. The landlords required a fair amount of coaxing and a letter from the vet before I could rent with cats. Their previous bad experiences and loss of money in repairs from cats of previous tenants gave them a bad view of cats in general. My cats behavior, and lack of damage have shown them there are good cat owners out there and would give recommendations should I move again.
All 8 are loved, cared for, properly vetted (vaccinations, meds, dentals, prescription or premium foods), regular grooming, and plenty of toys, playtime, cat trees, cat condos, cat beds, heated cat beds in the winter, pet water fountains and supervised outdoor time on a leash or in the cat enclosure.
None of my cats suffer any long term 'complications' or 'behavior problems' due to declawing surgery. Some of them are quite ancient now.
I suppose I just happen to have been abnormally lucky, or happen to have the most excellent vet surgeon that did the surgeries, but I would not hesitate in a heartbeat to have any new additions front paw declawed and even be present during the surgery without fear, or reservations.
If a vet isn't comfortable doing the surgeries then he/she shouldn't be doing them as they won't do a good job. If an owner has a bias against declawing, they shouldn't have it done. But I do believe the choice is between owner and vet, not the law. Cats that are declawed are NOT unloved, uncared for, or doomed to all kinds of 'complications' simply from being declawed if the surgery is done properly and the owner follows aftercare instructions, no more so than a spay.
clawless September 15th, 2008 11:48:00 PM
In addition to my above post...
I forgot to mention that all the cats came out of anesthetic wanting to eat then play. And I had my hands full trying to keep them from playing during the recovery time at home after the surgery.
clawless September 15th, 2008 11:51:00 PM
clawless, I'm laughing over your comment on the torti. I have a torti also, referred to frequently here as Psycho Kitty, who is very much loved and doted upon. We live with the Rockies practically in our backyard and get some impressive electrical storms as a result. Psycho Kitty's moods often seem timed to incoming storms - about ten to twelve hours before clouds come rolling down Pike's Peak, she goes absolutely crazy. Have you noticed weather affecting yours?
Meri Gray September 16th, 2008 01:24:00 AM
In response to Shannon:
I have to disagree again. We have the same problem with having to rehome thousands of kittens and unwanted cats (plus the feral problem) over in Europe, and yet we do not, in fact NEVER declaw, and I know of no shelter in England nor Germany (where I come from) that would kill cats because they can´t be rehomed. I now live on a tiny island off the west coast of Africa (under Spanish law) and even here we NEVER declaw - and this is after the worst ever summer of a "kitten epidemic" on our hands! Besides, it´s illegal here anyway.
In the US it is simply because declawing is so *ingrained* in society and you are all brought up with the fact that declawing IS an option over there, that you do TAKE the option, but mostly for reasons such as saving furniture or the pathetic excuse of cat scratch fever (which isn´t as common as you think) - if it was the latter, you simply should not have a cat, just like if you were allergic to nuts, you wouldn´t eat them.
People over here have never even heard of declawing and when I tell them that over in the US they routinely amputate their cats´ claws in the name of profit, they are always, without exception, horrified. How any animal lover could possibly cut off all 10 digits of a cat´s paw is just beyond comprehension over here, and I simply do not and never will understand the way of thinking of some of you pro-declawing people.
Declawing is NEVER done with the cat´s health or wellbeing in mind, just for OUR sake. And whoever compares declawing to neutering/spaying, well that is a pathetic comparison because it is NOT simply for our benefit, it is also for the cat´s and catkind´s in general benefit because we are preventing even more unwanted kittens from being born, the aggressiveness between unneutered toms and injuries/deaths from fights that ensue, the roaming (and getting run over by cars) of toms, queens on heat, just to name the most important reasons for neutering. Those reasons are all to benefit the cats themselves. Declawing doesn´t benefit ANYTHING in comparison, so please, don´t use the spay/neuter comparison, it´s just very "lame".
As for somebody above saying things about the cat playing and walking normally after declaw surgery, has it occured to you that cats do not show or look like they are in pain, even though they are in pain constantly? I have RA and fibromyalgia and I am in constant pain whatever I do 24/7, but I don´t show it and people can´t see it either. That doesn´t mean I don´t suffer. I can only *imagine* having all my 10 toe tips amputation and then trying to wear closed shoes and walk like that. I think that pain would probably make me forget I had RA and fibro!!! But it wouldn´t stop me from walking.
In response to clawless:
Again, I must say "only in America"..... re. renting - many pet owners here in Europe rent accommodation too, but it´s either "no pets" or "pets allowed". I have never heard from any landlord, nor read in the local paper or anything like that, that a cat has destroyed the carpet or sofa etc. If anything you sometimes hear about the "destruction" caused by *children* who paint walls and stain furniture, but never damage by cats (or dogs). And even if a cat had done such things, the deposit that then tenant paid is there to cover for stuff like that when they move out. It works perfectly over here in Europe, so why not in the States???
Clawless also said:
"But I do believe the choice is between owner and vet, not the law."
If anybody calls him or herself a responsible pet owner, there shouldn´t even BE a choice to declaw. Only the wellbeing and health of your cat should be on your mind.
Sorry about this lengthy reply, but I was trying to respond to various points made by various people here.
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 07:02:00 AM
I think we should drop the America versus others idea....I've talked to many very saddened pet owners in European countries that can't get decent vet care for their cats with IBD....They get much better veterinary information from a bunch of laypersons on a feline IBD forum than they do in their own country...Not so bad in UK (where they just can't find good food options - imagine the surprise of one of the pet owners when I told her that 3 of the 4 meat based foods she was using were not supplemented), but many of the other countries in Europe. Vets don't know much about the disease and don't have a lot of the same medications to treat them. Each country has it's pros and cons. America is the best country in the world to live in IMHO.
Jenny September 16th, 2008 08:22:00 AM
Clawless...well spoken. As mentioned my cats were already declawed when I got them as kittens. The rescue program declawed them at the same time they were neutered. To us that was a big plus that they were declawed. I believe that the rescue program declawed them to make sure they were not returned to them. This was 9 years ago and at the time I was only vaguely aware of the declawing debate. However, I can say that my cats have absolutely no lingering effect related to declawing. They are extremely pampered, they receive top notch medical care (one cat at $7000 last year, total care for al cats $10,000), they all get along very well together, the older cats receive physicals twice a year plus all lab work, and they all are very good at using their litter boxes. I never have to scold them for clawing at something. To me the only debate is regarding the surgical procedure itself. If an owner chooses to declaw a cat it does not mean they are awful owners. I also agree it is a choice between the pet owner and the vet.
Jenny September 16th, 2008 08:34:00 AM
To Jenny:
You mean irritable bowel disease? How are they supposed to treat that in cats if they can´t even treat that properly in humans (having fibromyalgia, I suffer from that too, incidentally).
My cats have in all the European countries I have lived in only had the BEST of care from vets, always. The difference is that over here it´s not such a big profit-making "business". It´s a "health service" for animals, meaning they help animals rather than helping themselves to big "bucks".
I have to say that I was very surprised (and relieved!) that here on this tiny island of Lanzarote, when one of my tom cats almost died from a blocked bladder (he has FLUTD) a few years back, the Spanish vets had the most amazing knowledge and expertise of the situation with him, and the operation he needed was also much cheaper than in the UK or Germany (250 Euros), or for that matter, in the US.
Foods? At least we don´t get the whole pet food recall with contaminated pet food here!! Since I have a lifelong sick cat I only buy special food from vets, so I don´t know what ordinary cat foods you find in the supermarkets, but we get all the best brands here like Hills, Eukanuba and Royal Canin. I have never had a problem of not getting only the best stuff here, so I don´t know exactly what you are talking about....
But let´s not lose sight of the point here: the declaw issue.
The reason why I compare Europe with the US is because one would think that the US is an enlightened, civilised, intelligent country, but then there are things like declawing. And another reason why I compare the two is that I am currently supporting a case to do with the State of Connecticut being the first State to pass a law making declawing illegal in the US, in which I am the European "liaison" giving input "from a European point of view".
And it might be the best country to live in for yourself and *people*.
But NOT for cats, imho.
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 08:45:00 AM
Jenny: Top notch medical care should NOT be expensive like that. Read my bit about Lugosi (my tom with FLUTD) and how fantastically they dealt with him here in Lanzarote (Spanish vets) for only a small, affordable amount.
This is just my point again that in the US everything regarding veterinary care is a big bucks *business* rather than seriously caring for the animals. But then, so is medical care in the US for humans. How can I possibly try and educate someone about not declawing a cat when their health system turns away *people* if they can´t PAY for the medicine and treatments they need? Don´t get me wrong, it´s not you or the people that are wrong, it´s the system.
*sighs*
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 08:54:00 AM
If the shelters are not killing due to overpopulation then the situation is not the same. In many, even most, US cities the level of cat overpopulation euthaniasia is high--ergo a surrendered cat is likely a dead cat unless they are lucky enough to get into the a no kill program. That makes feeds different factors into the ethical decision. If it really did come down to death or declaw, I also would opt for declaw. I am against declaw and actually okay with declaw bans--but I will not deny the possibility of unintended consequences.
emily September 16th, 2008 09:33:00 AM
clawless: Most complications I see are from cats who weigh more than five pounds when declawed. I happen to see very few now that I require my patients to stay with me for several days with pain meds on board. But complication rates are VERY high with declaws compared to other surgeries. There is no debate about that in veterinary circles.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 16th, 2008 09:50:00 AM
I've worked in the veterinary industry for a long time, but I'm ambivalent about declawing. Our hospital does it the "old-fashioned" way (read: no laser), and the cats stay in the hospital for the next day before their paws are un-bandaged. We then send them home with an E-collar, Yesterday's News, and doped with as many painkillers as they handle. In six years, I have not seen a SINGLE post-surgical complication - no infections, no chronic soreness, etc.
That being said, I do discourage owners from declawing when there are other options available. One client adopted a local stray, and brought her in to have her spayed and declawed - his was a case I had no hesitations about, as he and his partner were HIV+. I too believe that it's better to declaw a cat and give it a good home than to take it to the shelter (claws or no claws) and let it play the chances.
And yes, both my cats are declawed. The first was done before I started working at a vet clinic, and for the second one I held the paw as it was done. I would not have done it unless I'd really considered all other options, but both cats recovered perfectly and have never displayed any changes since the procedure - no arthritis, no litterbox problems, no biting, etc.
Do I believe that declawing should be done just for the fun of it? No. Do I believe it should be illegal? No. I'm sure that I will be in the minority, but I believe it can be an acceptable procedure if done the correct way for the correct reasons.
beth September 16th, 2008 09:55:00 AM
Barbarella,
If choosing between a declaw and possible death in a shelter environment, wouldn't a declaw be in the cats best interest?
Shannon September 16th, 2008 10:04:00 AM
Shannon,
No, there is NO reason to EVER declaw in my view. Take it from someone who didn´t even know the procedure existed before the internet appeared and who never had the option in her life to do such a terrible thing to a cat´s paws. I have worked in various shelters in England and even though some cats were with us for YEARS, we would not even think about euthanasia. They would simply become "residents" there and we would deal with the problem there and then. I don´t know what, or how bad/good, the conditions are in American cat shelters, but I have never seen one in England or Germany that had "possible deaths in a shelter environment" because of not being able to rehome cats.
I have to admire our only privately run shelter here on this island where I live - we have had a kitten "epidemic" this year and the rehoming has been tough, but we´re getting on top of things now. No declawing needed. Just a lot of hard work and donations from generous people.
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 10:52:00 AM
clawless,
You are very lucky that all of your cats went through the declaw proceedure and came out with no complications or side effects, *but because your cats did, does not mean every single cat will!*
That is my issue. Ok, granted I'm anti-declaw, but the main reason I am is because so many times I have heard people say "If I only knew"
And the arguement that it should be a decision between a vet and a client - that is bogus too. Too many vets (but not all) are willing to do declaws because of the $ it makes them. yes, the all mighty dollar makes a lot of the decisions a vet will offer a client. If he can suggest soft paws or other alternitives that makes him nothing to very little (on the off chance they sell them there) or he can sugget a declaw that makes him several hundred dollars, which are you going to think he's going to make? I mean come on. Vets routinely prescribe "rx food" for pets for their life that say right on the bag to be fed for a limited time only. Why? they make a lot of money on these foods.
I volunteer at a shelter, and i see the cats that are declawed come in with behavioural issues all the time. My last few fosters were turned in for inappropriate elimination - yes, declawed. Not every owner of a declawed cat is so willing to give up a pet, but a lot of them are. People try to argue that declawed cats are more likely to stay in a home because of the investment the owners made, but that simply isn't the case. A lot of owners who declaw do so for reasons other than the cat, and when the cat steps out of that image, the cat has to go. I fostered a big beautiful cat who had no idea how to be a cat. I'm assuming his previous owners simply wanted a stuffed animal that was warm and purred. Took me forever to coax that cat out of his shell. His previous owners said he was shy and reserved, and didn't like other cats. He's now the life of a household with multiple cats, and loving being a cat! His new owner can't understand how they decribed him, because that is just not who he is after being allowed to be a cat. Again, not every owner willing to declaw is like this, but too many are.
I worked at a vet's office for a while, and 99% of the "caution" cats were declawed. Just because your cats don't bite you - doesn't mean they won't bite! most of the owners of the caution cats were just shocked over the behaviour of these cats at the clinic. They don't feel backed into a corner at home, as they do at the vet.
as for the arthritis. Your cat's gate is thrown off because of the lack of it's originally designed feet. Just because the arthritis is in the back end does not mean that it didn't come from the lack of claws. Doesn't mean it does, but I don't think you are qualified to determine one way or the other
I am out there telling people what the surgery entails and what POSSIBLE side effects there are. I will be the first to admit that not every cat exibits the side effects that are known, but a lot do. People need to make an informed decision and I see a lot of vets who refuse to talk about them. They are willing to say that declawing is akin to neutering. I just want the "if I had known"s to stop.
Ok, so I want all the declaw sugeries to stop, but I'm happy at this point to settle for getting out the information.
Connie September 16th, 2008 11:31:00 AM
Does "caution cat" mean the ones you have to be wary of because they are inclined to bite? I don't know the term.
Judy September 16th, 2008 12:29:00 PM
Barberlla - I think you would have to know something about the procedures that were done to my cats to have any idea of whether the rates were excessive. They were not.
However, my point is, there are many people like me that take excellent care of their cats but prefer to have their cats declawed for various reasons. My cats are my best friends. They are not abused in either way. My cats were declawed before I got them, but I would likely declaw a new cat if he was not already.
I just ran into someone when I was coming into work who said she is adopting a cat from the local shelter with a lost eye (probable fight with wild animal) and other health issues. She already has two cats and they are declawed. She plans on declawing this new cat. I would rather applaud her willingness to take in a cat with health issues than have the same cat put to sleep or taken in by someone that won't care for him as well.
Jenny September 16th, 2008 12:36:00 PM
Jenny, it´s enough "abuse" to amputate a cat´s claws, to be honest. That´s how the majority of cat lovers all over the world including veterinarians sees it. That´s why it´s illegal in most countries. If somebody had a cat declawed in, say, Spain or Australia, for example, the person AND the vet would be fined or even go to prison under animal cruelty laws, because that is what it is: it´s *cruelty*.
I run an online anti-declawing community where, luckily, there are also many US members, which makes me think that there is still hope for American catkind.
Out of curiosity, WHY would you want to declaw another cat if you got one? You say they are your best friends, then why would you want to amputate their front claws??? Would you really do that to your best friends? What you are saying, in my view, is extremely contradicting.
Re. your friend´s new cat - yes, I took in a one eyed kitten once too, a long time ago, she had to have her eye removed due to ulceration from cat flu, and she was rather ill with recurring cat flu type symptoms for much of her first few years in life. And what exactly would that have to do with declawing? Nothing at all. There are many people in this part of the world too that would take in a chronically ill or disabled cat, but declaw it? WHY? Why then add to the possible pain the cat already has with whatever illness it has by declawing it, and exactly for WHAT purpose would you want to declaw it?
I just do not understand that way of thinking.
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 01:02:00 PM
Re: Jenny.
I had to jump in on this one!
I just took in a kitten who has damage and scarring to her eye (born with infection). There was a danger of her losing it, and now that she has a virus, that possibility has returned - maybe it will clear up and stabilize as she ages, maybe there will come a point where they have to take the eye - but if that happens, they WILL NOT ever declaw her. One has NOTHING to do with the other.
I also have another cat, with claws - she is around other cats, with claw. I think, given her disadvantage of being partially blind, and the 'little one' - it's an ASSET for her to have her claws.
Are you saying your friend is declawing the kitten for the sake of the other cats? Fear of ripping THEIR eyes out? I have taken in many cats, aggressive cats, I have NEVER had a cat lose an eye to another cat. If a cat suffered damage due to another cat's aggression you deal with it, you don't pre-emptively PUNISH the cat!
It's wrong, it's painful, it's cruel. Cats come with claws. If you don't like that fact, don't have a cat.
I am against altering pets for human aesthetics.
I believe every living thing has a right to the integrity of their body.
Cats come with claws FOR A REASON.
People say 'well indoor cats don't need to hunt' - yes, humans have body parts we don't use or can function without, but we don't take them out for the sake of the inconvenience. (Only if there's a problem).
And I disagree with the concept they don't need claws being indoor cats - claws come in handy in the oddest of ways. My cats travel, they cross borders. They are NEVER out of my sight when they do, they do NOT go outdoors (except in proper carriers for safe transport as necessary) - however... there are other, unconsidered, advantages claws have; customs officers tend to leave them alone. IF they have to see the cat for some reason, they ask me to show them. They don't walk off with my babies.
In fact, I recently had this conversation with a customs guard at the US/Canada border - he was thinking of declawing his cats... We had a conversation and he thought better of it after - he just didn't KNOW there were 'options' and way to care for the claws.
As with a lot of things, education dispels the 'it has to be done' or 'it's always been done' myth.
Any one who thinks declawing isn't harmful and benefits the cat REALLY needs to see what is really done.
There's something else I think about. It's been proven that some cats are just 'not right' after a declaw.
So um... if it's documented that people have 'woken up' under aesthetic, how do we know no animal hasn't? Maybe that's why they aren't right. They woke up paralyzed having body parts ripped out.
(sorry if that's gut wrenching or unfeasible to some, but it's my nature to consider the other beings perspective, I am very attached and empathic with the things I agree to care for. Yes, I do consider things like that)
Some surgeries are necessary and if that phenomenon exists, it's unfortunate. But what a shame if it happened during an unnecessary one...
I agree with Barbarella "I just don't understand that way of thinking" nor do I wish to.
My little kitten already makes me feel sad when I see her eye water or I have to put gel in it or when she can't fully open it - the LAST thing I want to see are bloody bandages around her paws and her having trouble stepping!!!
Ariana September 16th, 2008 01:47:00 PM
At the cage front the death versus declaw question is not a 'should it happen' question, but a 'will it happen' question. And no matter what you say about shelter X or Y never killing to due exceding capACITY, shelters in the US *do*--about 5-7 million dogs and cats a year. It is a real dilemma and I am not sure how the fact it doesn't exist in some places rebutts that fact that it does in others. Including several urban UK shelters that I have had reason to visit. Vets do face the question: death or declaw.
Denying the question blocks the implementation of a solution that fits community ethics. That solution may be a ban in and several countries is. Although I would not that ban strategies in some areas have been reversed when they hit the realities. That is why a debarking ban was reverse in NSW Australia because if someone has to decide between dog and eviction the dog can end up in the shelter and thus often euthansied--death or debark becaome a real and pressing question. In places where bans are the norm solutions may be found, but at least the occassion death may be part of that solution and, unlike in NSW, perhaps it is just that no-one is keeping count.
emily September 16th, 2008 02:12:00 PM
Emily, you said: "Including several urban UK shelters that I have had reason to visit. Vets do face the question: death or declaw."
Certainly NOT in the UK! There IS no declawing there because it´s against the law.
And to be honest, in the UK/Europe/Australia and other countries I know of where it´s illegal and/or unheard of, I think if anybody tried to rehome a declawed cat, they would have a harder time rehoming it than a clawed cat because it´s "disabled", but of course, they would eventually find a person that would take pity on the poor thing and the health implications (i.e. biting etc.) that this cat might have.
I still do just not understand where the pro-declawing way of thinking comes from and why it is so rigid and never thinks about the cat´s wellbeing.
I stress again: Declawing does NOT benefit the cat. Ever. Full Stop. It´s cruelty to animals and "playing God" for our own sakes and furniture´s sakes of the highest order. The only case over here I have heard of where there was going to be a possible declaw was where a cat turned out to have severe epilepsy and was doing damage to itself while fitting, but it was so severe the cat had to be put down in the end.
Barbarella Buchner September 16th, 2008 02:56:00 PM
Arianna - I think you completely missed the point. The point is she took in a cat that had special health concerns...not just the lost eye. Even if the cat didnt have health concerns, I am happier that someone saved the life of a shelter cat that in the US would most likely be put to sleep. Cats are put to sleep in the thousands here in the US...and many that are only slightly ill are allowed put to sleep. It is just a fact of shelters. There are too many animals. I would rather thank her for saving a life than worry about whether she is going to declaw a cat.
Jenny September 16th, 2008 05:46:00 PM
Barbarella, have you ever owned, lived with or even SEEN a declawed cat? Obviously, you have a right to your opinions whether they are based on fact and personal experience, or on rumor and hearsay. But why not listen to what others are saying, especially when they actually have experience in the matter? You don't have to change your opinion, but it would be nice if you'd at least acknowledge that others might actually know what they are talking about.
And although I am truly, truly sorry that you suffer continuous pain from RA and fibromyalgia - to assume that a cat who's terminal phalanges have been amputated months or years before suffers similar chronic pain just doesn't make sense. It would be more accurate to compare it to the experience of people who have had fingers, toes or portions of their feet amputated. And they normally do NOT have chronic pain from those procedures.
Barb September 16th, 2008 05:56:00 PM
LOL Barberella - I thnk those that support declawing in certain circumstances would call you completely rigid and hostile in your opinions. And thus most of them are probably not going to debate or even try to explain. Because no matter what they explain....you would not go along with it.
Cats being put to sleep in shelters every day....Even more if you pass this law. Cats that are never scolded or stressed as they are told to not wreck things....Health reasons of the human...Whatever reason they might have is between them and the vets. I doubt that anyone will make it illegal throughout the US....in general the US philosophy is small government
Jenny September 16th, 2008 05:56:00 PM
Emily,
You said what I had wanted to and phrased it beautifully.
Barbarella, cruelty to a cat is also killing it for lack of housing which happens, weather it should or not.
And please stop making this into an America vs. Europe debate. I'm not American and I have never lived there and your 'Europe is better than America be'cause declawing is illegal' is getting offensive.
Shannon September 16th, 2008 05:57:00 PM
Barb - I must have missed the comments regarding long-term pain due to declawing...You are right on...I won't say there are never complications, but most declawed cats do not suffer long term pain from the result of the surgery. Thus my comment earlier is the only discussion really is based on the procedure itself - and it's risks, etc. There is no scientific evidence for the rest of the stuff you usually hear...behavoir or litter issues, etc. Cats have many reasono to not use litter boxes.
Jenny September 16th, 2008 05:59:00 PM
Jenny.
Yes, her decision to take the cat is admirable. I am glad it has a home. AND, you are right, it IS better the cat have a home or not.
I guess I just don't see the point though. I don't see what adopting a cat with special needs and the decision to declaw have to do with each other -
I am NOT trying to be argumentative here, I guess I just don't get the point. The way you wrote it above, I read it as if you were saying she got this cat who has special needs but the decision was based on the fact that her other cats are declawed, not on for the cat's personal health concerns.
(which I don't agree with, because I know for a fact you can have clawed and declawed cats in harmony).
If I am wrong, please, correct me.
I don't understand WHY I should overlook something I feel passionate about for the sake of her good deed.
There are plenty of shelters that are no-kill (GRANTED, not enough)
There are also shelters, in North America, that will not allow a pet taken to be de-clawed as part of the contract (my kitten came from a no-kill and had a contract I had to sign that said I would not do any 'cosmetic procedures' to the animal.)
If we don't want healthy animals to die senselessly in shelters, we need to look at that as an intolerable solution to pet over population and work to change the laws against that in our own surrounding areas. BUT most people would rather say 'well what can I do, that's just the way it is' - there is a LOT a single person can do!
It involves education, ACTIVE INVOLVEMENT to educate people about pet overpopulations (I routinely take feral cats to be 'fixed' to prevent further generations - no great act, as do many other people and whole cities, world wide - but I spend the time and effort and money with little complaint) AND altering the laws in the community to not allow random killings.
Saying "it's declaw or gas for the cat" is sort of a backward approach, in my opinion, to stop animals from being put down in shelters.
Ariana September 16th, 2008 06:44:00 PM
Obviously, a lot of new vet grads think the feline declaw is barbaric and unnecessary too. And actually that attitude holds promise for an individual like me.
The argument seems to be "the lesser of two evils" and Barbarella makes the point that it is illegal and considered"'rightfully so" in Europe & other countries. We have a problem here in the US with enforcing our EXISTING animal cruelty laws, let alone entertain new or controversial ones.
I believe it will come to pass, that the US public conscience will take hold of Europe's companion animal welfare statutes, but it is still a long, long way off.And quite frankly, the existing veterinary professional community is a long way off from embracing it as a whole.
As one who has participated in puppy dew claw and tail docking, I would be hard-pressed to call it "painless or necessary" for any reason, and would question the validity of a claim to the contrary.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 16th, 2008 06:53:00 PM
MeriGray - no I've never noticed my Torti having more 'torti-tude' before a storm. She actually never really cares about storms unless there's a close lightning strike, then she just hides behind the couch.
Dr. Patty Khuly- around my area if cats are to be declawed the preferred age is 3-4 months, most vets hedge around 6 months, and many outright refuse at over 1 year unless the cat is in danger of being put to sleep or lose it's home unless the surgery is done. Only two of mine were done close to one year, except for the one that showed up that way. I don't know when she was done or who did her surgery.
I'm curious, what type of complications are you seeing in your practice or your area? How many of them are related to owner non-compliance with post op care instructions?
Beth & Dr. Patty Khuly -At the hospital I work at I've only seen two complications from a declaw surgery that were caused by the surgery itself. That's got to be well over a thousand declaw surgeries in the time I've been there (I don't exactly count them). The two complications were both the same problem, the surgical adhesive (vetbond) had healed inside the incision instead of sloughing off, a piece of it later showed up elsewhere in the paw and was removed without further problems and treated with antibiotics. Most of the so called 'complications' we get calls about are owner non compliance to post op aftercare instructions. They don't use the special litter, they don't restrict activity at all, and don't notify us if they have a licking problem. We have about the same ratio of 'complications' with about any more common surgery (spay/neuter), most complications being either licking or owner non compliance with post op aftercare instructions.
The vets where I work do not encourage declaws, and will present other options to the owners. Tthey will tell clients though, that if they are definately going to declaw that it's best to do when the cats are younger/smaller.
clawless September 16th, 2008 07:08:00 PM
Barbara Albright
You said:
" We have a problem here in the US with enforcing our EXISTING animal cruelty laws"
THANK you for bringing that point up.
I was going to mention something to that effect in my last posting here.
It goes to what I said about becoming active in the laws and standards of your community.
- Sadly, as a society, we don't stand up for those with no voice. "Animal Cruelty" is often a misdemeanour and a 'throw away charge' when they make a deal for larger charges. (And I think pointless shelter death of a healthy animal is a cruelty and lack of value for that life). We shouldn't be so quick to de-value life and we should be outraged when animals are used as bargaining chips.
They say that almost all serial killers were animal abusers and animal abuse in children is a 'big warning sign' but we all do that by allowing people to get away with things like dumping their pets, leaving them in the cold, beating them (by not making these crimes more serious - sure there are laws, but they aren't often properly enforced). -
So on that note, maybe we do need to look at the larger picture - instead of worrying about ripping the claws, shouldn't it be more of a worry about the fact shelters are allowed to kill and that laws aren't enforced to protect animals?
Naturalist David Suzuki said:
"I believe we define ourselves as a society and as a species not by how much money and material wealth we accumulate, but by the ways we respond to the poorest, the weakest, the most vulnerable among us."
When we take an animal in, it is subject to our dominion - They are often without right and voulnerable to US and how we choose to protect them. I feel it is our obligation to do everything we can to comfort, protect and care for them - and I do not see how cosmetic sugery for human aesthetics falls into that. IF we, as humans, are to act 'above' so called 'lesser beings', there is an obligation to the so called 'lesser beings' in that as Mr. Suzuki's statement points out.
Allowing animal abuses to go unpunished and laws un-enforced DOES define us as a society...
(but it isn't a pretty picture).
Someone asked if Barberella has ever had a cat who was declawed... Why do you need to SEE it when you know what the surgery is? On a cat's anatomy, it is akin to taking off the last knuckle of your toe after you learned to walk.
I have had declawed cats (came to me that way), NOT a selling point to have 'seen' one or have had one. Only re-enforces my view point, personally.
Ariana September 17th, 2008 12:13:00 AM
In our grooming salon, we're occasionally asked by dog owners if it is possible to declaw their dogs. It never ceases to amaze me how 100% of the customers milling around, not to mention the other employees, get all riled up about how 'inhumane' it is to declaw a dog.
Where does the preference come in? Why is it inhumane to declaw a dog but not a cat? Why do cats get the short end of the stick on this one, so to speak? Most dog owners are horrified by the idea of declawing their dogs--when will cat owners follow suit?
I'm completely anti-declaw. I'm due to have a baby in two weeks and my mother is debating getting her cat declawed because of the baby (I live with my family at the moment). I'm pulling rank on this one--if I catch wind of her setting an appointment to declaw her cat because of my baby, I have no problem 'catnapping' her cat and rehoming her in an environment where she won't be put through this procedure. She's already prone to biting (she's a siamese), and has a nasty peeing-in-clothes-baskets habit. I love that cat to death, but I'd gladly rehome her rather than have her mutilated for my baby's sake. It's not that hard to supervise young children and pets.
Charity September 17th, 2008 02:28:00 AM
I am strongly opposed to declawing if not for the simple fact that it is an absolutely inhumane procedure. There are no health benefits of a declaw and many cats can suffer arthritic and behavioral issues down the road. Before I got involved in anti-declaw advocacy I reluctantly agreed to let my mother in-law declaw one of our cats. Seeing her the next day made my stomach wrench and she was in an incredible amount of pain. She cannot jump high on the cat furniture and struggles to jump on our bed. She also has litter box issues and is the occasional biter. Both problems that didn't occur until after the declaw. This is one a few of the many reasons I advocate declawing to be made illegal.
Roxanne Davis September 17th, 2008 04:08:00 AM
To Barb: yes I have met a few declawed cats in LA and NY when over there, and I feel so sorry for them for not being able to do things like use a scratch tree (which is natural) or do the "making biscuits" with their claws (which are part of the natural stimulating thing when they are kittens). It´s just terribly sad to see a body part that is natural to have for a cat taken away by god-playing humans for NO reason.
I also have watched quite a few brain and spinal operation in my time working at hospitals in the past, but watching a declaw op only on a documentary, actually made me physically sick.
Why doesn´t anybody that is pro-declawing here ADMIT that the operation is totally and utterly unnecessary? I AM listening to you, I just do NOT understand why people call themselves cat and animal lovers and then do an operation on a cat that only benefits YOURSELF.
Please don´t feel sorry for ME. I deal with my life as it goes on, I wasn´t looking for sympathy only using the pain thing as a comparison. What you say that about people having limbs etc amputated is totally absurd though. Of COURSE they have chronic pain afterwards! Again, knowing from experience from working in hospitals (I worked mostly in neurology), we treated thousands of patients with nerve pain after amputations, and it´s actually *common* after amputations to have these nerve pains. Since cats have the same internal organs, nervous system and bone structure (except the collar bone and tail of course) as us and feel pain just like us if you cut, prick or kick(!) them, as a cat lover (or veterinarian), we should treat a cat´s body with the same respect as we would treat a human´s body.
No, I don´t have experience being owned by a declawed cat, and I hope I never will (but if I did I would of course love her/him as much as any other cat), but that´s besides the point. I am not on about the personality altering problems or health problems after declawing. I am on about the actual procedure being totally unnecessary and only with our own, human interests in mind rather than the cat´s health, and I am on about it being so "popular" with vets because it´s all for the MONEY.
I do have lots of experience in general life lessons and compassion and care and respect for animals, and that is all you need really to know that declawing a cat is WRONG. But of course, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect your opinion, even though I strongly disagree....
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 04:16:00 AM
To Jenny, you said:
"I doubt that anyone will make it illegal throughout the US....in general the US philosophy is small government"
You can email and speak to Diana Urban, State Representative of Connecticut, and ask her about it. She is a fantastic advocate to save cats´ paws and she is pressing (with a hell of a lot of support I might add!) the issue to be passed as law. It doesn´t matter that it´s not nation-wide because change like this never comes quickly, it will take decades or even more to change the mentality of a whole nation. However, I am glad that in the 5 years I have been supporting anti-declawing, there have been many small changes already in the US with a lot of vets refusing to do declaws, people from younger generations seeing the barbaricness of these amputations (thanks to the internet as well) and West Hollywood vets outlawing declawing.
I am starting to feel like I´m talking and bouncing off a wall here, but just like fox hunting in the UK (which is also totally unnecessary), there will always be people who still like to cling to the "old ways" of doing things.
As for shelters, I don´t understand the mentality of "death or declaw" either. Over here we have overflowing shelters too, trust me - after this summer´s "kitten epidemic" we have sent so many kittens to foster homes I think everybody on this island must have a cat by now LOL!). Again, it´s the mentality of the whole nation (plus tenancy contracts that ask for cats to be declawed of course ) to NOT want to have a cat WITH claws from a shelter. Must be such a big BUSINESS for the vets, to do all these declaws for shelters, ey?
Jenny also said: " Cats that are never scolded or stressed as they are told to not wreck things....Health reasons of the human..."
That´s just my point. Declawing is NEVER EVER for the cat´s benefit or health.
So why not just amputate kids´ fingers who are told not to wreck things but they still do so? That would be the next intelligent thing to do (sorry for the sarcasm).
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 04:33:00 AM
Jenny: I never said Europe is better than the US. You did. Both parts of the world have some wonderful things and some bad things which is not the point that we are talking about here though. I am not being offensive at all, I am simply trying to bring a point across that declawing is NOT necessary EVER for a cat. Only for our own sakes.
If it was legal here in Europe I would say exactly the same things about it, I am not on about how wonderful this or that country is. I don´t really care, tbh. I don´t care much about my or other people´s nationality and am not racist nor patriotic, just proud to be a decent human being that has respect for animals and people alike and would not advocate a "barbaric" procedure such as declawing in ANY part of the world.
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 04:39:00 AM
To Charity:
re. dog v. cats declawing - you have a good point there!
Incidentally, I just heard from my colleague at 9 Lives Lanzarote (a cat charity I run the website for) that she has just rehomed a DECLAWED kitten with half a tail. Who the hell did the declaw over here (Spanish law island) should be fined and/or imprisoned.
And also, just to add in case you´re interested, the animal protection laws in Spain were only changed a couple of years ago (finally!) to fall in line with the rest of Europe - before Zapatero came into power, abusing, neglecting, poisoning or abandoning an animal was classed as simply a "minor misdemeanor" and wasn´t taken seriously at all. Now at least if you are found doing any of the above or other stuff to an animal, there is a fine/prison and/or ban from having animals ever again. Zapatero really brought some good stuff about for Spain, notably the animal laws and gay marriages.
However, I might also add that I am NOT in Spain, but on a tiny island off the West coast of Africa that falls under Spanish law (although the Canary Islands have their own government - it gets complicated!), and because we are so far away from the "mainland" the new laws that I mention above are generally not enforced, unless it´s one of the charities making a bit of noise about it. Things like this take time I guess....
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 05:06:00 AM
LOL - I can tell you that cats without claws continue to make biscuits and paw at things (tree bark in your case) the same as they do with paws. My cat makes biscuits on me all the time. No need for your pity there for declawed cats.
Jenny September 17th, 2008 10:28:00 AM
Barberella...on the US versus Europe thing...I think you already responded once to my post...I think someone else posted on the subject though...I think the real message is lets not make this aobut countries.
And in my last post I meant to say claws not paws of course.
Jenny September 17th, 2008 10:31:00 AM
Jenny, I don´t know what you are LoL-ing about, but of course they still DO those things, that´s not what I meant. It´s just that they don´t NEED to do them now that they don´t have claws, do they? Why would they want to use a scratch tree at all and for what purpose, except to stretch their backs?
Re your other reply, I am not making this about countries. *I* am talking about declawing. The thing about Spain and animal laws was just because it´s interesting for animal lovers in general and a lot of people like to know things that count as "general knowledge", just small talk really that slipped in on the side, sorry. Posts sometimes do get sidetracked though, don´t they?
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 10:41:00 AM
Jenny, forgot to type, you said "versus" twice now which makes it sound like a match or a war. Which it is not, at least not from my side.... ;)
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 10:45:00 AM
No...just a word...no war on my side. I'm much less excited about the topic than I think you are. But when you talk about things like cats making buscuits versus the actual procedure that is when I feel the topic gets off.....
What I think would be really, really, nice....is an UNBIASED document describing the process in terms everyone can understand (or the various processes used since laser I think was mentioned earlier)....what are the possible complications related to the surgical procedure itseld and ways to prevent those issues (e.g. as mentioned earlier, declawing at a younger age/weight)....The emphasis is on unbiased though, using terms that would not by themselves show a bias by the author, or statistics that can not be proven. Most of the articles I've seen are written by organizations that are against declawing and the documents include things that are not factual and show the obvious bias of the author.
I think the rest of the discussion is more distraction....Those that might consider declawing in certain circustances are likely to be turned off by the 'other stuff' but would probably read a well crafted, UNBIASED, report.
Jenny September 17th, 2008 11:20:00 AM
Jenny, well in that case this post should be made so only members can post and not just an "anybody" like myself.
After all, that is what things like these are for (forums, blogs, the internet), and I don´t think I have gone off the point because everything I have said (except the bit about Spain´s animal laws) was about declawing and the *unnecessity* of it, and what a good idea it is to make declawing more expensive which will deter (some) people - which is perfectly acceptable to talk about in this post I believe. And remember, freedom of speech?
Re. information, unbiased or not, you have an intelligent mind of your own to decide for yourself whether an article is biased or not - there is enough on the internet on just about any procedure that´s around, including declawing - just google it and you shall find it!
Barbarella Buchner September 17th, 2008 12:06:00 PM
Barbarella,
It was actually me who was taking offense to you 'Europe is better than America stance." The words don't have to be there but the message is. And you don't neccessarily get to decide if your being offensive. I can be offended by you without you realizing that your doing it.
And just to remind you, that I'm not in America. Where I am is irrelevant. Dogs and cats are killed by the hundreds of thousands here on a yearly basis. And my point is if cat declawing can lesson that number than I'm for it with proper pain control in place.
Shannon September 17th, 2008 12:33:00 PM
Much of what Barbarella Buchner has been saying is seemingly being dismissed because many apparently believe that she's just bashing Americans. O.K., how's about this American give the antideclaw argument a try?? Maybe the rest of you Americans will take me more seriously? I know how we don't like it when foreigners tell us what to do ;)
Declawing is done, plainly and simply, for the convenience of the cat's owner. I have challenged several people when they mention they're considering getting the procedure done, and the ultimate base of their argument is always 'I don't want the cat to claw all my stuff up'. I could almost see if they were concerned about the cat scratching their child (still ridiculous; a cat can still bite), but no, it has to do with property damage. I tell them 'but if you train your cat properly, you won't have that problem. I have three cats and my furniture isn't all tore up'. They just get uncomfortable and change the subject, because *they're going to do it anyway*. They simply don't want to deal with it.
There's been a lot of talk on here about complications and long-term effects from both sides of the argument. It's irrelevant. There is almost NEVER a medical reason to get this procedure done. If you're getting your cat declawed, your doing it for your own selfish reasons. Dress it up and rationalize it to yourself all you like--that's what it comes down to. Claws are part of what makes a cat a cat; if you don't like the claws, then you really don't like cats either. And don't tell me that it's better to declaw it than to have it languish and then be euthanized in a shelter; if you're willing to force this procedure on a cat, you'll never be truly putting its interests first anyway and it would probably better off without you.
I don't understand the shelter declawing vs. euthanasia debate anyway. It's not as if getting the cat declawed will automatically make it a more attractive candidate for adopting; it could still have behavioral problems just the same as any other cat that preclude it from being so. It's not so cut and dry. Moreover, there are still such a ridiculous amount of cats up for adoption anyway that I don't see where this mindset will have much of an impact on adoption rates.
What do I know about declawed cats, then, if all my cats have claws?? Well, let me tell you. Last year I adopted a cat from the SPCA whose previous owners had had his front claws removed. I immediately fell in love with this cat because of his sweet personality and cuddliciousness. However, I was reluctant to get him because I worried that he wouldn't be able to hold his own against my clawed cats. After discussing it with my vet, we felt it was worth a try. Before you jump on me, his being declawed wasn't a problem on that front. He held his own fine against my other cats whenever they had run-ins, which wasn't often.
At any rate, soon after bringing Clarence home, it became very apparent that he had urinary problems, in that he leaked urine when he slept and he didn't know when he had to urinate when he was awake. After many trips to a couple of different vets and a neurologist, it was decided that his urinary sphincter and the surrounding nerves were defective, and the problem would eventually affect his entire back end and hind legs. It was unfixable. I don't blame his being declawed for this. It was probably something he'd had for most of his life and was most likely the reason he ended up at the SPCA (who, if they knew about it, did not disclose this condition, btw).
We chose to deal with it. It was not an easy decision to live with; he required a lot of medication and just about everything in our house got peed on. Diapers were out because he ripped them off with his teeth. Living with Clarence took a severe toll on everyone (humans and cats) in the house. We tried so many different things, all but one. I started thinking; though it definitely was not an ideal solution, perhaps we could make him an outside cat, so he could be free to pee wherever he liked. I don't like the idea of outside-only cats, but we were desperate to find a solution that would work for us *and* Clarence. He loved being outside (we have an outdoors enclosure for the cats) and it's not like peeing everywhere bothered him any. But of course, without any claws, this option was unacceptable. Eventually, Clarence began having other complications, and we and our vet eventually decided that it would be best to put him down. I still miss him every day.
His was a complex situation, and I doubt his being an outside cat would've been viable or helped anything. But at that point I would've tried anything to keep him in our lives and to make his life better. I really resented that this option was taken away from us and Clarence just because his previous owners didn't feel like training him to scratch appropriately. I mean, WHY? And I'll always wonder 'what if...' Declawing your cat could have ramifications you might not even think of.
This experience was not what made me against declawing. Let me tell you, though, that it definitely further reinforced the idea that onychectomy IS NOT RIGHT. I always have found the practice disgusting, and I think it's right and telling that practically THE REST OF THE ENTIRE WORLD also thinks it's reprehensible and has since banned it. Oh us wacky Americans. The gubmint can't tell us what to do, can it? Yeah, we're real mavericks. Meanwhile, our cats pay the price for this ridiculous attitude.
Oh, and the idea that getting cats spayed or neutered is just another procedure only done for our convenience is LAUGHABLE, by the way. Well, not really. It's kind of sad that anyone would actually believe that.
As for wanting unbiased information about the procedure so people can properly make a decision on the matter...the fact still is that you're removing the first joints on all your cat's front appendages to make life easier for you. Again, dress it up as you like, but there it is. You're still in the wrong. Sorry if this hurts your feelings, but your cat will hurt a lot more.
And on the original topic: anything that makes people less likely to get a cat declawed is O.K. in my book. I think the procedure, if not banned outright (not likely in the 'maverick' US), should be extremely expensive. For the record, my vet, who has her own practice and only works with cats, will not declaw a cat. She provides literature about the procedure, about ways to get your cat to scratch on appropriate surfaces, info on SoftPaws...anything and everything to get people to look at alternatives. If they're still determined to get it done, she tells them to find someone else to do it.
Angela September 17th, 2008 01:49:00 PM
Angela,
Thank you for your story.
Cats can be distructive with or without claws - urinary in your case.
Your points are very valid and Clarence's story reminds me of my Boris.
VERY similar - Boris was a Maine Coon that no one wanted and they couldn't house because he was so aggressive.
He had previous owners who *loved* him until he got too big to deal with - so FIRST they ripped his claws out (leaving scarring, by the way) and then they just beat him - and when that was too much, they dumped at the vet with $50 and the phrase "we don't care what you do with him but the money is to put him down - we don't care if you kill him"
They did. Boris and I met and developed a bond - I loved him differently than any other cat I have had and I still miss him... Because, sadly, after 5 wonderful years with him, I had to have him put down - the beatings he suffered caused brain damage. He got to the point where he was suffering severe dementia.
I think your story and mine illustrates your point: Some people want pets out of convienance for themselves, not the best interest of the animal. When the animal fails their expectation, well... I guess they become disposible. So I guess, from that perspective, it justifies doing as you wish to your animal in the name of YOUR own expectation verses the animal's best interest.
Ariana September 17th, 2008 04:00:00 PM
Shannon.
I think it's interesting you call it a debate over America vs. Europe but yet won't mention where you are. Not hard to figure though - just look at the countries who do and don't allow the procedure.
You are right though - where you are doesn't matter.
I am a United States Citizen, born of European parents, in my house in Canada and have spent much time outside of North America - so I can truly say I feel my viewpoint IS influences by having experienced both perspectives (pro and anti declawing) so I say with confidence:
I do not feel it is a US vs. Europe debate, it is supposed to be a CAT issue - not an issue over who can fly a flag higher!
To dismiss comments because they come from a European is doing exactly what you have accused Barberella of. (which I do not feel she has done - I feel she has simply offered an 'outside'viewpoint)
Ariana September 17th, 2008 04:06:00 PM
Arianna,
I did not dismiss Barbarella's comments. I find her perspective interesting if polar opposite from mine. I've read her comments and those of most other people on this stream and have taken them all in. Nothing so far has been said to change my mind. That in choosing between a person abandoning their cat and declawing it, the less cruel option is the declaw.
In most cases, yes it is done for owners conveinence. I never disagreed with that.
I understand that many consider it a barabic procedure with more risks than benefits. I understand that is painful and yes, usually unecessary. But I also believe that every medical procedure has risks and the choice is up to the pet owner and the vet to make the right decision for that cat and that family.
Barbarella has stood by her opinon that declawing a cat is never for the good of the cat. I have disagreed, repeatedly yes but we are both allowed to have our opinons. It doesn't mean I'm dismissing her, it means I'm disagreeing with her.
Its statements like this "This is just my point again that in the US everything regarding veterinary care is a big bucks *business* rather than seriously caring for the animals." that I take offense to. Its a blanket statement made with no point other than, it appears to me, to attack the US.
Shannon September 17th, 2008 06:11:00 PM
Shannon, How can we, as USA citizens, become "offended" by statements about veterinary care being *big bucks business*, when we ourselves, particulary media, cite commentarys and examples all the time? And many of us, agree!
And to not only criticize veterinary care, but human medical care and education as well??!! Some of this criticism is warranted and deserved, by our own admissions!
Barbarella: You cite Spanish Law---has the "bull-fighting" laws changed? Curious about that, when the mention of GB foxhunts came up.
Coincidentally, I was doing various searches yesterday, unrelated to the blog, and was surprised to read of a story of treatment for a cat & horse in GB for what I compared to be a very, very reasonable price. So curious, in fact, that i looked up tuition at the Royal College in Britain and found that to be hugely reasonable in comparison to like universities in the US. This in light of a higher cost-of-living in Britain.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 17th, 2008 06:33:00 PM
Shannon,
Of course you are right when you say
"repeatedly yes but we are both allowed to have our opinons."
yes. You are. Both of you. (unfortunately, it is hard for me to sympathize with your 'side' - admittedly - yes, I realize I am bias toward my conviction here...)
However...
in reference to something else you said...
"That in choosing between a person abandoning their cat and declawing it, the less cruel option is the declaw."
Interestingly enough, I DO agree with that statement.
UNFORTUNATELY, the reality isn't true.
I got Boris because he was "thrown away" AFTER his declaw.
My mother currently has a cat, Mykos, that was DUMPED "by" her porch, after being an obvious 'indoor cat' . Maybe he was dumped there because she is know to feed strays (strays which are also steralized by her at her expense).
If it were true that the de-claw process kept these cats from being abandoned, I could see the point more clearly.
Fact is, however, just as many declawed cats are 'thrown away' as clawed ones. In the case of Mykos, he was left ON THE STREET by my mother's.
How is that, remotely, fair to the cat?
The reason he ended up in my mother's house was that the other strays were beating him up and not letting him eat. He had no option other than to seek the highest ground and eat what they left.
That reality, really, only re-enforces my earlier point: education, maintainance and enforcement of law. Someone cared about him enough once to care for him (he was altered, meaning he had shots, and declawed), but they threw him out. Where does the obligation they started begin and end.
Ariana September 17th, 2008 08:41:00 PM
Barbarella, I think you misunderstood my comments again....You are free to speak your opinion just as I am mine.
Angela, I think what we have been saying all along is it doesn't matter what country you are in. I don't care if you are from Mars. Barberella was the person that raised the country issue "only in America'.
I don't really have anything more to say than my last post to Barberella....There really isn't anything left to discuss.
Jenny September 17th, 2008 08:44:00 PM
Jenny: well declawing IS done "only in America" (being the only part of the world that is supposed to be, in my view, enlightened, intelligent, caring and non-third world, where declawing is still legal), I am stating a hard fact, and sorry if you understood me wrongly and thought that I hate America. I don´t. I don´t hate any country, I love this planet and the good people on it and the animals too. I just HATE what is being done to poor kitties´ paws for absolutely no valid reason in your part of the world. :(
Barbarella Buchner September 20th, 2008 08:10:00 AM
Angela said:
"the fact still is that you're removing the first joints on all your cat's front appendages to make life easier for you. Again, dress it up as you like, but there it is. You're still in the wrong. Sorry if this hurts your feelings, but your cat will hurt a lot more."
This is the point I have been trying to bring across here with all the stuff I have been saying. But some people would rather ignore that one and only important point (why, I don´t know!) and read between the lines and instead of me being anti-declawing I end up being called anti-American... and let´s face it, that´s not what all my words were about at all - it´s simply because certain people here do not have any more arguments left to save their skin regarding the declawing debate. So they start picking on other, unimportant things... :(
Barbarella Buchner September 20th, 2008 08:21:00 AM
Shannon said:
"Its statements like this "This is just my point again that in the US everything regarding veterinary care is a big bucks *business* rather than seriously caring for the animals." that I take offense to. Its a blanket statement made with no point other than, it appears to me, to attack the US."
You are easily offended, Shannon. This was not meant as an offensive statement, it´s a FACT that veterinary practices are a *business* in the US, the same as human medical care is a huge *business* there as well, which is sad because it never has the animal nor the human´s health interests in mind - all facts. I am not attacking anyone.
Anyway, thanks for listening again.
Barbarella Buchner September 20th, 2008 08:28:00 AM
Barbara: bullfighting, sadly (and strangely) is still legal (exempt from other animal protection laws!), but many towns in Spain have outlawed and banned it already and Spanish National TV have stopped coverage of live bullfighting since last year, and hopefully, in time, this whole thing will also be one of those barbaric practices that is made illegal altogether... :(
Barbarella Buchner September 20th, 2008 08:35:00 AM
Barbarella: I guess it's time for me to get my hackles up a bit on this:
"it´s a FACT that veterinary practices are a *business* in the US, the same as human medical care is a huge *business* there as well, which is sad because it never has the animal nor the human´s health interests in mind - all facts."
Arguing that the pet health industry has its problems is one thing. Claiming that the veterinary industry does not have the animal health interests in mind, however, does indeed stretch credulity somewhat. Don't paint us all with that powerpainter of yours on this point.
If veterinarians cannot make a living from treating animals, how exactly do you propose our animal friends receive medical care? Should the state fund my education AND pay me *just* enough to provide basic care for all?
Dr. Patty Khuly September 21st, 2008 02:05:00 PM
Patty, you said:
"Claiming that the veterinary industry does not have the animal health interests in mind, however, does indeed stretch credulity somewhat."
That´s again my whole point about declawing. The system in the US has NOT got the best interests in mind when it comes to declawing cat. There are NO health benefits to the CAT whatsoever from declawing.
Also, the word "industry" that you use comes across again like the whole thing is just a *business*. I would have used the word "veterinary profession" I guess.
The vets I know and I use where I live (and previously lived) make their living just fine actually, without doing the declaw procedure. I hardly think they live on the breadline! So I´m not sure what you mean "how do they make a living". They work, of course, just like you do. Just without the cosmetic surgery on cats´ claws....
Barbarella Buchner September 22nd, 2008 03:31:00 PM
Patty, sorry I omitted something (v. tired at the mo!) and misread the last paragraph of yours.
The vets I know and use where I live (and back in London where I lived before) have only given the BEST of care to my cats ALWAYS. Where I am now it´s even more amazing how they saved my boy Lugosi´s life when he almost died from a blocked urethra (the beginning of his FLUTD) in 2005, and since then he has had fantastic care and support, regular urine analyses, ultrasounds, special food, and all the other advice and care that goes with it. The make a living perfectly just like you do with their work. But WITHOUT declawing.
I only recently talked to the vet that operated on Lugosi and when I mentioned declawing he sadly shook his head and said, there are vets that should go to prison right here on our island that do declaws when they know it´s illegal. And they do botched jobs too of course. Which is even worse.
But if you now want to tell me again, like a few other people here have said, that a declaw operation that is done under good medical supervision and with the correct aftercare and pain control is a different thing, yes it may be, but again I have to say WHY??? If there are NO benefits for the cat WHY do it?
I keep hearing things like "so the cat stays off our stuff" and "I don´t wanna get scratched". Those are not reasons to declaw. Those are not things that benefit the CAT. Those are not reasons that I would call are in the animal´s best health interest. Why can´t some people actually understand that?
Barbarella Buchner September 22nd, 2008 03:45:00 PM
Barbarella: My point is that the veterinary industry should not receive a blanket condemnation because of one procedure some vets choose to do.
And it IS an industry, which is the issue we are addressing when you raise concerns about veterinary medicine as a business. I'd be euphemizing if I referred to us as "a profession" within the confines of this particular conversation.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 22nd, 2008 05:03:00 PM
thanks
http:/www.tntup.com/index.php
Ahmed September 22nd, 2008 11:11:00 PM
That´s sad, Patty. Really sad. But I´m free to have my opinion I guess and I respect yours.
And I guess it IS an industry in the United States. Over here it´s a "profession" and veterinarians are "professionals" in their field, rather than "business people". I am not condemning the whole veterinary profession in your part of the world, I am only condemning *declawing* and it being treated like a business rather than a health and beneficial service to cats. Declawing has NO benefit whatsoever for the *cat*. It´s cosmetic surgery for felines, which is forcing our own convenience upon the cat in the most horrible way by cutting off it´s 10 claw digits.
Barbarella Buchner September 23rd, 2008 05:27:00 AM
Barbarella: Your comments are well-taken and appropriate. I agree with you more than you probably realize. Thanks for expressing yourself--it's always appreciated here. :-)
Dr. Patty Khuly September 23rd, 2008 09:02:00 AM
Thanks Patty. :)
Barbarella Buchner September 23rd, 2008 09:54:00 AM
Dr. Khuly, I totally took your point with regard to the broad brush painting all vets as unconcerned with the well-being of their charges just because some do a procedure that some consider cruel. I'm not sure Barbarella quite got your real point there, with which I fully agree. And in my view, vets here are just as much Professionals as they are anywhere. I'd be willing to bet there are incompetent or even cruel ones everywhere, but they do not represent the profession, only a particular perversion of it. And "business" OR "profession," a practice had better be making money, or else it will quickly cease to exist. With or without declawing on the menu.
I myself could not possibly EVER declaw a cat of mine, and I would certainly explain my position to anyone contemplating the procedure for a cat of theirs, if they were willing to listen. However, I would point out for this discussion that I've seen it argued with vitriol equal to B's about declawing that neutering animals is just as cruel and just as much done for the convenience of the people. I don't happen to agree with that one, so a person with that view might have just as much anger and judgment toward me as B does toward those who aren't absolutely (or even just as vehemently as she is) opposed to declawing.
Barbarella, I hope that if/when you discuss this with anyone who is in a position to be considering a declaw for their cat, you are more explanatory and less adversarial than you seem to me to be in your posts. I am in total agreement with your feelings about declawing cats, and yet I feel attacked by you; I'm guessing that if you approach people who aren't fully aware of the facts with such venom, they aren't going to hear you. They are just going to be put on the defensive.
I'd love to see a world without declawing. But no-one I've ever known who had it done to their cats did so with malice aforethought. They need to be educated on the full implications of the procedure, not judged harshly and dismissed as criminal.
Judy September 24th, 2008 11:43:00 AM
Hi Judy, I didn´t realise there was "venom" in my responses - I feel that I am simply extremely passionate about the subject and passionate about kitties. But it also depends on the response you get from other people how I react to them (in real life or here), and if you read some of other people´s replies here, I´m sorry, but I was trying not to get offensive with THEM after being told I am being anti-American!
What I was saying was just keeping it very firm, but polite enough not to start throwing things and swearing (don´t you love the internet for the latter, jeez! - that was sarcasm, btw).
Anyways, this is again besides the point, but I appreciate your criticism and input on your take on declawing of course. :)
Barbarella Buchner September 26th, 2008 04:05:00 AM
Ok all of you that oppose de-claw fine but stop pushing you beleifs on all of us that are ok with it, the cat is the same nothing changes and they are in the same amount of pain as a person is after plastic surgery, so shutup all of my 6 cats are de-clawed and they are happy one of them is 13 years old and he was done when he was 6 months old I am so sick of hering about all this why dont you all fight about something more importent like abortion you murder or I guess thats ok because there are pleople out there doing that to animails having them fixed while there pregnet, now see I feel that is wrong I meen why dont we have you all fixed while your pregnet and see how it affects you, thanks for your time....
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