I do feed my dogs a super premuim pet food , But I have 1 I need to feed something else and just dont know what to feed her. I being one more do not trust my Vets opinion on my dogs food. I just don't think he knows what he is talking about when it comes to different types of foods.He knows medicine not food.

Donna January 13th, 2009 10:46:29 AM

I'm picking on a few comments: Did the students conduct this survey as part of a 'graded' project? Or was it "free labor"? I can't help but be annoyed as to how educational institutions will take advantage of students that pay "tuition".

Over the years, I have been asked what I feed and the measured amounts. Never has it been suggested to "change" brands, but perhaps switch to senior and even once NOT to switch because the pet was obviously doing well. That included Science Diet dry for my 18 1/2 feline. Gosh, my 19 1/2 cat lived on Tender Vittles all her life (yuk!)...but we weren't going to change it for the obvious.

Twenty/thirty years ago, the variety of brands weren't even available to discern.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 13th, 2009 11:47:45 AM

I'd be more apt to look to my vet for nutrition advice if my vet actually broached the subject.  I've had my dog in several times over the past six months, for surgery, skin/ear infections, and food-related allergies.  After 5-6 visits, the vet finally asked what I was feeding my dog.  Now, I'm pretty happy with this vet, and I'm not sure there's much she could be doing to help, food-wise, but you'd think that the subject would've come up at some point, wouldn't you?

And this is not an isolated issue with just this one vet.  I've moved around a lot and been a client at quite a few vet practices, and this is the first time a vet has ever asked what I was feeding my dog.  I think that's kind of mind-boggling.

Shelly January 13th, 2009 11:50:36 AM

I don't think you're being too sensitive. I like the insinuation that owners who are feeding non-commercial foods need a talking to about proper feeding... how about the owners feeding Meow Mix or Sprout? 20 bucks says the non-commercial feeders have thought a lot more about feeding their pet than most of the commercial feeders.

Megan January 13th, 2009 12:06:45 PM

Scanning through the full article quickly, I do dectect a sense of "Some owners don't trust commercial foods.  They think fresh foods are better. As vets, we need to be aware of this and give them good information about why they can trust commercial foods."

Why not entertain the idea that some pet owners have a good point about not trusting Big Pet Food too much? Or maybe how we can be sensitive to the fact that these owners WON'T trust commercial foods, and thus need good, quality information about how to prepare a diet at home?

Megan January 13th, 2009 12:17:41 PM

I wish there were data comparing people's confidence in pet food companies before and after the Menu Foods fiasco.  I was always inclined to go with organic companies for my parrot's food, and this has reaffirmed it.  It also leads me to now always mix different brands, so at least if one is bad, my pet has other brand options as well, and can easily switch brands if one is recalled.  Half my bird's diet is home made too, a mix of veggies and grains - and this is what vets recommend. 

zandperl January 13th, 2009 12:26:05 PM

Heh I've been waiting for a food-related post from you!

It seems that not only do most vets not know much about nutrition but they are very condescending to their clients when they do talk about it. I guess that makes clients less likely to question them. I've spoken to a couple about food in particular, and a few I've just observed when talking to other clients. The preferred method seems to be to say "Science Diet! Science Diet!" over what the client is saying so that they shut up and take a submissive stance and figure that the professional must be really supportive of this food.

Then I've had conversations myself at AMC when two vets told me to put my dogs on a prescription diet. I asked them why. They said its better. But why, what ingredients are in it that are better? Its not about ingredients, its about preparation. Well what is it about the preparation? At this point both docs diverted my attention to something else. So i refused the food. I was going to refuse it anyway because i was not about to feed my dogs Hills or Euk. They also criticized that the food i currently use is not well-researched (well duh, its not Hills or Purina, the company's money goes into the food not marketing). In the end i felt like they toyed with my intelligence. Either that or they dont actually know WHY they're recommending it, is that it seems.

Vets also need to lose the stigma about raw feeding. They warn against it as if its a plague. Salmonella, salmonella, salmonella. but from what I've read salmonella can be passed through kibble just the same. Raw feeding isnt something that should be put together arbitrarily, you still have to really do your research and figure out what's right for your dog or cat and balance that. But there is nothing wrong with a dog eating a raw bone, they have not devolved so much as to require kibble.

Tatyana January 13th, 2009 12:33:43 PM

Also, speaking as a vet student, we conduct a feeding survey via phone or in-person visits at pet stores as part of our advanced small animal nutrition elective. It's considered an assignment and is part of earning credit for the course. It's possible this was a similar situation, where the surveys were conducted by entire classes of students interested in nutrition.

Students also conduct research (paid- our research positions pay about $5000 for 10 weeks' work plus any research presentations over the next year) over the summer at my school, so it could be that Purina sponsored some research positions for students over the summer to conduct the surveys and/or analyze the data.

Megan January 13th, 2009 12:37:12 PM

Megan: Thanks for pointing out that sentence...I was starting to question whether I'd turned into one of those people who reads a paper and leaves with an unjustifiedly bad taste in their mouth. I'm starting to feel a tad more comfortable in my initial assessment.

Oh...one more quote you're all going to love:

"Pet owners were queried in this survey regarding how they obtained information about pet nutrition, and 71 (15.8%) and 15 (16.0%) of cat and dog owners, respectively, cited the Internet and other media as their primary sources of information...The quality of information from such sources is quite variable and can be strongly biased toward a specific feeding practice."

Internet and other media?? Is the implication here that only veterinary and/or pet food company advice can be trusted? Is it that the Internet is inherently biased towards non-commercial pet feeding? The statement dislplays a strong bias against pet owners who would take responsibility for their own pets' care outside of their veterinarians' direct supervision. Further, it implies that non-commercial feeders are interested in one feeding practice over othes (raw, perhaps?). As if the nutrition iinformation gleaned from veterinarians isn't as "variable" as any available online...

Dr. Patty Khuly January 13th, 2009 12:49:48 PM

Well, I'm sure if the results had been "80% of respondents believe that commercial food sucks and is a danger to the health and well-being of their pets" the study results would have seen the light of day. As far as I'm concerned this is a 2fer for the Pet food companies - research conducted on their behalf and brainwashing vet students at the same time....sweet.

2CatMom January 13th, 2009 02:17:21 PM

Ummm...make that would NOT have seen the light of day.

2CatMom January 13th, 2009 02:17:59 PM

I like this too:

"In this survey, we did not collect information about the specific brands of pet foods being used by the respondents; however, it could be speculated that some of the noncommercial feeders were more likely to be feeding commercial pet foods that were marketed as alternatives to mainstream products (eg, commercial foods marketed as natural, organic, or holistic)."

So... if an owner doesn't like commercial foods, they're probably one of those wacky 'holistic' nutjobs. Run away!!

Megan January 13th, 2009 03:01:16 PM

"we need to be aware of this and give them good information about why they can trust commercial foods"  LOL

perhaps they are finally feeling the effects of the food recall ? commericial dog food sales are falling ? Just received my copy of Pet Food Politics, very interesting read thus far not alot we "non commercial feeding, holistic nutjobs" don't already know though...

So I am interested what /where is this "good information that we can trust?"

LC January 13th, 2009 04:50:44 PM

Oops- I should note that "Some owners don't trust commercial foods.  They think fresh foods are better. As vets, we need to be aware of this and give them good information about why they can trust commercial foods." is my own personal impression of the paper, not a direct quote taken from it!

Megan January 13th, 2009 04:57:45 PM

Re: "Veterinary health-care professionals need the capability and confidence to address issues of pet owners related to proper diet and feeding management of companion animals, including concerns about commercial pet foods, especially when a dietary history reveals that the pets are fed alternatives to conventional pet foods"

In other words, veterinary health professionals need to convince clients to RETURN to the commercial pet food fold?

Nice of Purina to inform you what your job is as a vet.

Stefani January 13th, 2009 06:50:37 PM

I recently started a new job at a vet hospital. I am a dog trainer that also does behavior work and they seemed excited to hire me. As a trainer use my blog as my website. They apparently never looked at it because they never asked me my opinions on things like food and how I might handle that as one of their employees. I mostly work the front desk and knew when I took the job I would have to keep my mouth shut about my raw feeding and the fact I am not a fan of SD food. I am only in week two and have senced a biased against raw feeding. I will continue to keep my mouth shut but know at some point it will probably come up. I am hoping I can be a good example of non-commercial feeders and they may see another side of it over time. We will see. If not than at the very least we will agree to disagree. I love that you are a non-commerical feeder Dr. K. I like to think that regular vets that feed raw are a good example to those vets that just don't consider it a "valid" option or one that only "holistic nutjobs" choose. Tail wags, Marie http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie January 13th, 2009 08:13:31 PM

I have a cat with food allergies, according to tests my vet ran.  She's also not food-motivated in the first place, so if she doesn't like the food, she won't eat it.   At my last weighing (baby scale) of her, she is 6 pounds, 14 ounces, slender, and muscular.  She is free-fed two kinds of kibble that are down at all times, one the Royal Canin Duck and Green Pea, and the other California Naturals Herring and Sweet Potato.  Twice a day she is offered about an ounce or so of wet food.  

The wet foods are things like EVO Ancestral Diet, 95% chicken, or Merrick Before Grain chicken or quail.  For some reason she doesn't like the Merrick all salmon variety.  Trader Joe's wild caught salmon for humans is preferred.   (She's allergic to both beef and lamb and rice plus other stuff, per the tests, so I spend a lot of time reading fine print on little cans.)  Before the big melamine scandal, she used to be offered Nutro, but I quit that and also avoid anything with wheat gluten.

For such a tiny cat who isn't an eager eater, I figure I woun't save anything buying the cheap stuff.

Miss Kitty's Mom January 13th, 2009 09:26:49 PM

Miss Kitty's Mom: How do you feel about being included in the category of those who buy "natural," "holistic," and "organic" foods? Think Purina's feeling threatened by the likes of you? I think so. And you're not a dying breed...you're the new generation of commercial feeders, if my clients are any guide.

btw, is the diet helping? The lit isn't kind to screens for food allergies. You may find you need to whittle down on the variety until you happen upon your offending allergens. Keep us posted.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 13th, 2009 09:39:46 PM

We feed Taste of the Wild to the adult dogs and Wellness Puppy to the, duh, puppy. We switched to the high protein TotW food due to Joella the Rottnweiler's lethal gas. It was the vet who recommended the change. And yeah, I trust our vet's opinion on nutrition. The cats get cheap canned food and Wellness dry. We've got an older cat who won't take her meds unless they are in 9 Lives canned food. Sheesh.

We did a raw diet for a while, back when we had less critters. The recipe came from Dr. Pitcairn's first book. Eventually, the smell of raw ground turkey mixed with oatmeal became too much for us and we stopped. It was a long time before we could cook turker burgers without gagging.

PaulaO January 13th, 2009 10:02:31 PM

I do homemade now and again but it's labor intensive, I'm still not good at it. I need to buy a meat grinder that does bones if I want to do it right. Most of the time I feed Natures Variety raw nuggets or Natures Variety Instinct rabbit. Every once in a while, a can of Weruva. Every once in a while I order tubs of Feline's Pride (http://www.felinespride.com) But I know that doing homemade would be better than even high quality cans provided the recipe is balanced. I worry about the chemicals in the cans, as BPA (which lines food cans) and can-feeding of cats have been associated with hyperthyroidism.

Stefani January 13th, 2009 11:10:01 PM

My Shiba Inu has allergies, always has had.  We moved from Missouri to Houston and her allergies got much worse.  Vet had her up to 20 mg prednisone every other day.  She weighed 19 pounds when we started the pred; 23 when we went up to that highest dosage; 35 pounds three years later at age 7. It was then that she blew out a previously damaged ACL and was simultaneously diagnosed with luxating patellas, worse on the leg with the torn ACL.  Needed surgery, needed off the pred.  This was the first time a Vet even suggested that there was something I could do about the food allergies (having had my previous questions on the topic dismissed by two Vets).  Vet gives me some printed information on allergies in dogs and starts pushing z/d ultra.  The z/d did help and we weened her off prednisone the week before Hurricane Ike hit Houston.  The surgery was delayed due to the hurricane and, by the time it was performed, my Shiba was in pretty bad shape from the allergies.  After surgery, we saw a Vet dermatologist who wanted to use a new drug that has pred and another ingredient and weekly special shampoos and another drug too and this complicated, never ending routine; my regular Vet was still pushing z/d and wouldn't discuss other options; the surgeon didn't want to get involved (although my choices impact when we'll be able to do the surgery on the second knee which isn't nearly as bad and so I'm not doing it until we have some of the food allergy issues under control).

For the first time ever, I'm completely ignoring all the Vets we've seen.  I've been trying all kinds of real food for my dogs and I'm VERY concerned I may not be getting the nutrition right BUT...  My Shiba is down to 28 pounds, takes 5 mg pred every third day, has a full coat of hair, no more welts, no more raccoon eyes and she's happy for the first time in 2+ years and playing almost like a puppy.  My Lab hasn't had pillow ear or an ear infection or a UTI for over 6 months (and that's a first, ever for her!) and she's had a stress chew spot (that's what I was told it was) on one front paw for 6 years that has been almost consistently infected - it's gone and she has fur on that paw again!  In addition, we had fewer flea issues while on z/d and almost none since switching to mostly "people" food.

I'm frustrated that my Vets seemed to know so little on this topic and it makes it hard to trust them on other issues now.  I'm more frustrated that so little is known about the effects of the chemical additives and there seems to be a predisposition to trust them.  Just as human drugs were shifted from phosphates to sulphates for cost reasons, the same is being done with many additives and drugs; etc., etc....  The science to support that these ingredients, as used, are safe (let alone healthy) is sparse at best and almost always performed by interested parties (manufacturers).

PJBoosinger January 14th, 2009 12:16:38 AM

I feed raw, and mice and cooked chicken to my cats (until I can find a source of chicken I feel safe feeding raw)

occassionally they get some veggies or whole grain bread, but that's because they want to eat it, not because they need it

There is always commercial dry down as well because some of my older cats, won't eat the homemade food.

The dogs get raw and cooked with veggies and oatmeal or a little left over rice.

Once a week we make "cat stew" from all the left overs in the fridge and it's hodge podge.

they do much better both weight wise and coat wise on the home cooked food. My vet doesn't like raw though. So we disagree there. But with the dogs being dachshunds, and food slaves, it hasn't been difficult to keep them at a good weight on the homemade food.

my fat cats all slimmed down when they started to get all meat and less filler. I think they all seem better  I do add vitamins and minerals, and no one seems to be suffering for not getting commerical food primarily. Even the older cats are slowly eating more meat and less dry. Though some will never eat the mice....

commerical pet food is BIG business so as long as they support the vet schools and vets sell food, you're never going to see the real facts eek out at anything but a snails pace.

LorriM January 14th, 2009 12:30:18 AM

My cats eat a wide variety of commercial foods, predominantly canned. (Merrick and Weruva are favorites.) I try to keep their diet relatively low-grain. Occasionally, I mix in a little cheap stuff, as one of the cats tends to vomit if he eats exclusively "premium" food. Their absolute favorite food thus far has been this freeze-dried seafood stuff that came in a pouch. I think it was called "Un-canny". It was horrendously overpriced, and, when reconstituted, it bore a striking resemblance to vomit (and smelled only slightly more appetizing). They adored it. (The seafood flavor, anyway- the chicken and yogurt was a total flop.) Our stores don't carry it anymore, and the boys are most displeased.

I fed raw for a while during the pet food recall. One of my cats was poisoned, and with the ever-growing list of unsafe products, I was afraid to feed much of the stuff on the market. Alas, my FIV+ (among other things) cat stole some of the leftovers out of the trash (freshly tossed- they hadn't been sitting) and wound up with two weeks of horrendous bloody diarrhea.. followed by a neurological episode (which may or may not have been coincidental). The second time he nicked some and got sick again (though much less so), I chucked the stuff. I'll be honest- I did notice some positive changes in the other two when they were eating a partial raw diet.. but it just wasn't worth the risk to T. (Not to mention, we used Nature's Variety, and they've since discontinued the only flavor my cats particularly liked.)

With regards to the food debate, I think my biggest pet peeve is dealing with people (veterinary and layperson alike) who can't accept that a diet that works well for pet A may not be the best choice for pet B.. or that it is possible for others' pets to do just fine on a diet that doesn't subscribe to their particular feeding mentality. One of the women who works at the boarding facility we use has hassled me about the fact that I don't feed the FIV+ cat raw food. She seems to feel that, as a diabetic, this is the only diet appropriate for him.. and clearly disapproves of the fact that I've chosen not to go that route. She insists that her brand of choice could not possibly be harmful to T because the facilities are heavily inspected and it hasn't made her cats sick yet. My other two were fine on raw as well, but their immune systems are normal. His isn't. He's doing fine on his regular diet.. it's just not happening. I know she's just trying to be helpful, but.. egads.  That 'why don't you care enough to do what's RIGHT for him?' look hits me like a boot to the stomach every time.

Ramen Connoisseur January 14th, 2009 01:07:59 AM

My biggest beef? Hill's Science Diet. It's all over vet's offices because it's marketed so heavily to vets from the moment they step into the school until the moment they leave, and then they've got representatives falling all over themselves to make sure that they have good stocks of Hill's products ... the prescription diets seem to be OK, but the regular kibble just seems horrible from a nutrition point of view. 

I don't think you're being too sensitive -- this is what happens when you get marketing and research and education intertwined. I think I've gotten BETTER information via the internet than I've ever managed to get from my vet. In fact, my vet hadn't even heard of Wellness Simple when I switched my sensitive-stomached dog to it -- it was such a huge improvement in his health, and such a huge reduction in the amount of poop that I had to pick up out of the backyard, that I think it's horrible that more vets don't pay attention to the products that are out there besides the ones that get shoved in their face. 

Karl Katzke January 14th, 2009 03:14:16 AM

Do these people (pet food manufacturers) not realize that the best way for us to trust the commercial pet food is to make pet food that is healthy and safe? They had their chance and blew it, and continue to blow it, in my opinion. We read daily of problems with "ingredients" intended originally for industrial use, with aflatoxin because of the quality of ingredients/shipping/storing/packaging, with formula/ingredient changes that we don't find out about, etc. I have one cat who suffered because of toxic food. And I know the difference between the public and private response to the toxic food debacle of 2007. And, as long as the pet food industry spends more to market their unhealthy, unsafe "food" a lot of us are not buying it! We are out here and talking and researching and looking for food we can feel comfortable with. Wish more people were doing that. I now use a vet teaching hospital of a major university because of the need for more resources and knowledge than my former vet had. The nutrition portion of the curriculum is provided by Hills ~ let's say conflict of interest here. And I noticed a poster there that Natura is holding seminars trying to get into that market. They use the big name brands, but do have a nutritionist on staff who will work with clients, too. During the pet food debacle they did offer classes on homecooking for your pet. I didn't go because I was still trying to keep my cat alive. Bottom line is that the pfi needs to stop trying to convince us to buy something they claim is one thing, but in reality is another. If they would be transparent about ingredients, sourcing, and testing of their products and start producing foods that are safe and healthy for our pets we will buy . . . maybe. It's going to take me a long time to trust them again, if I ever can.

dottie January 14th, 2009 08:26:17 AM

"I think my biggest pet peeve is dealing with people (veterinary and layperson alike) who can't accept that a diet that works well for pet A may not be the best choice for pet B.. or that it is possible for others' pets to do just fine on a diet that doesn't subscribe to their particular feeding mentality."

I totally agree. I have a dog who doesn't do well on raw or high-protein diets, so I use Sojos to make a homemade diet. I have to justify myselves to the commercial feeders ("How do you know it's complete and balanced??") AND to the homecookers ("Dogs are not meant to eat grains!!!"). Oy. I can't win! Can't you just look at my dog and see that she looks fabulous rather than critiquing my choice of food for her based on philosophy?

Megan January 14th, 2009 08:36:55 AM

Karl: In your vet's defense, I've never heard of Wellness Simple, either. The last ten years have seen such a proliferation in pet food brands that it's impossible to keep abreast of them all.

Hills is all some of us know well enough to recommend. Some of us trust them implicitly, it's true, due to our schooling in their product mix. But some of us are not convinced of their foods' therapeutic benefits and some of us even came to that healthy skepticism in vet school.

I was not trained by Hills, despite their free foods and other goodies (which I was happy to receive while in vet school). Nonetheless, the taint of commercialism in vet school is there. If our schools were funded well enough we'd reject it altogether. As it stands, our vet schools' nutrition programs are tied to veterinary curricula--currently inextricably. Hence Purina and Hills funding our (their?) nutrition research.

Here's a past post which help illustrate this. I urge all of you to read them if you want to better understand how vets recommend pet foods and the history of nutrition in veterinary programs.

How do vets recommend pet food? (Part 2: Education)

 

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 08:40:07 AM

I got my first dog 20 years ago. Every time I took her to the vet, everyone there complimented her beautiful, shiny coat. She was a lab coonhound mix (about 50 lbs.) and she lived to be 16 (with one dental when she was about 13 and had a bad tooth). And every time I took her to the vet, the vet would try to talk me into changing her food - to Science Diet. I ignored him for a lot of years, mainly because I was too shy to ask WHY??? She got a bit heavy - about 5 lbs. overweight - and the vet brought up again changing her food to Science Diet. Why? Because in his words - it is less palatable. So, I'm supposed to feed my dog something that doesn't taste good so she will lose weight because she doesn't like the taste? It always irked me that they wanted me to change her food right after they told me how beautiful and healthy she was. I just assumed the vet was getting kickbacks from Science Diet.

Right now I have 6 dogs and feed 3 different commercial foods. Each one gets what is best for them, and yes, they are all the same breed. I try to tell people they just need to find what works for their dog, whether it is commercial, home-cooked (if they have the time and inclination) or raw. I do rescue and we do come across a lot of different problems with the dogs. Once they are deemed healthy by our vet, if they still don't seem right, we will always try a food change first.

I am impressed by those willing to cook for their dogs. How do you get started doing that?

robinsdogs January 14th, 2009 09:01:08 AM

I started cooking when I first began taking care of our first dog but didn't know what I was doing as far as adding calcium, though it never hurt him. He got a mix of commercial and home cooked some weeks pouched food, sometimes fresh. With the second dog I got really interested, read some books and yes the dreaded Internet. Found good sources and got started. I just spent two hours Sunday putting meats cooked to varying degrees of doneness through the food processor and portioning them out to last for a couple days. We should have enough food to last for a month for three dogs.
I also feed well cooked veggies with every meal and add liver and (raw) heart to dinner and alternate egg and yogurt in the morning. Add calcium and voila. They also get vitamins and fish oil.
I was nervous about figuring out the amount of calcium needed at first but have relaxed as the years have gone on.
I'm happy, they're happy and healthy. I have the time, if I didn't have the time to cook and use a food processor I would probably feed a mixture of raw and some kind of commercial food.
Good health has made visits to the vet a quick yearly occasion so it hasn't come up. We'd be blessed to have it stay that way! In the instance of our first dog, his health problems were so severe that food never came up there either though had I known better then his diet could have been a whoooole lot better.

Esmee January 14th, 2009 09:52:58 AM

Ramen, re: "She seems to feel that, as a diabetic, this is the only diet appropriate for him"

I will leave the raw debate on the table as I struggle with that question myself. But what I found dealing with diabetics is that it's most important to feed them grain-free, low-carb, high protein food. I recommend the Feline Diabetes website, and in particular, the online community (forum) there. They also have a link to "Janet and Binky's Food Charts" which has a list of carbohydrate content by % of calories. I always tried to stay under 7 or 8 %, but most varieties I fed are 2-5%. Granted, it's all commercial food listed there, with all the attendant concerns. But some listed is the super-premium and I think they might even have Felines Pride analyzed there.

BTW, Felines Pride claims to be tested salmonella free (it's a raw food). I never had a problem with it although occasionally one of my cats will get garden variety diarrhea with the Nature's Variety raw nuggets.

When I home cook, the recipe I use is meant to be used with raw, but I parboil. At least that gets anything on the surface of the meat. I wish there were more recipes out there that used cooked or partially cooked meat and didn't include any grains, for cats.

Stefani January 14th, 2009 09:56:17 AM

I am impressed by those willing to cook for their dogs. How do you get started doing that?

I got started when my dog got sick and her vet told me to cook for her for a week (along with a twice-daily dose of an antibiotic.) Initially it was just chicken and rice, a bland diet, but after that week, I was over the initial hump. I'm still new at this, and haven't got everything down for a really balanced diet yet, but we're getting closer--and I have a dog who is enthusiastic about every meal--the two each day that are home-cooked, and the one that's kibble in her Kong ball.

(And here's hoping my attempt at making paragraphs etc. in IE works.)

Lis January 14th, 2009 10:14:22 AM

When I first adopted my two cats one had very bad teeth and gums so the vet recommended Science Diet dental. I fed this for about their first year and gradually added a little canned science diet.

Over time as I tried other dry foods. I noticed that I had much less vomitimg in the bad teeth cat when the food didn't contain corn. So Nutro dry and wet cans & pouches became their main food. I did use some other wet brands which was a good thing because when the pet food poisoning mayhem occurred I was able to pull them off recalled stuff. And when Nutro stalled on pulling all their cans and pouches I stopped using them altogether.

The same cat later had some UTI's so did use an RX diet for a while but was unhappy that the first ingrediant was "meat by-products" which I translate to "parts of animals that are too diseased to feed to people."

So now I feed my cats mostly wet fod - Weruva and some Wellness along with EVO dry. I rarely have any cats vomitimg (maybe once a year), no more UTIs, and they look fantastic. Even my vet says they look great (if perhaps a little on the chunky side). So while I'm still using commercial food, I guess from Purina's point of view I'm a misguided consumer.

2CatMom January 14th, 2009 11:00:29 AM

I will listen to anyone who actually studied animal nutrition for an extended period of time that isn't selling me something.

It is hard these days to tell the internet hawksters from the real deal informational wise. You read things and it sounds plausable and intelligent, until you come to the end of the page and it says "click here to buy" well now you see they have an adjenda to get you to click, and you have to question if the information was tailored to sound plausable and intelligent. Which is yet another reason a lot of people roll their eyes when you say you got the info off the internet. They can't accept that real information is out there.

Even when you know the right information, proving it to someone else can be hard, and over coming that "Well they are vets, and your just some crazy cat lady"

I know the mark up on the foods that vets sell, and I know the pressure they are under to sell them. It always floors me when a vet who knows that a cat is an obligate carnivore recommends food that is mostly grains.. that one should just be common sence and shouldn't need a movement to turn the lightbulb on over their heads. This morning my local news said that feeding dogs "kibble" was the best. Made me want to scream

Hopefully it won't take another melamine scare to get the information out there on species appropriate diets.

as for the study? it reminds me of those "plausable and intelligent" websites on the internet.

Connie January 14th, 2009 01:11:32 PM

"I will listen to anyone who actually studied animal nutrition for an extended period of time that isn't selling me something."

Connie: That's why I don't give out much detailed nutrition advice. Sure, for healthy pets I often give what I consider basic advice, but when it comes to specific dietary recommendations for some conditions I like clients to call a veterinary nutritionist. They can be had (for a fee, of course) through the American College of Veterinary Nutrition's website.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 01:22:00 PM

Regarding consumer confidence- I wonder how many industry employees actually feed the products they push, especially now. A few months after the recall, I stopped by the local pet store to pick up a few things. I happened to have T2 with me, as we were on the way home from the vet's. (Bloodwork- he'd been poisoned by a recalled product.) It wasn't long before the Nutro rep started hovering. "What a beautiful cat! What do you feed him?" (Oh boy.) I told her, then politely explained that I had once used Nutro, but was not presently interested in feeding anything that had been recalled. As it turned out, the rep wasn't pushing her product. She  was genuinely interested in what T2 was eating because she was looking for a new food to offer her own pets. She didn't feel safe feeding Nutro anymore. I'd encountered this rep before, and she was positively militant about Nutro. Now? Not so much.

Stefani- agreed on the cooked food for cats! T would love that, as he used to be feral. Chicken is one of his favorite things to steal (you cannot eat buffalo wings unless he's stashed in the cat playpen, or they WILL disappear.. no matter how vigilant you are). Whenever I make plain chicken, I always save a little to use as treats. As far as the food, I think Feline's Pride was indeed the brand recommended. Alas, I've decided to pass on the raw for T. He's doing well diabetes-wise, but not so much FIV-wise.. so I'm going to play it cautious on the food front. Neuroticism, possibly.. but I know I'd never forgive myself if I lost him to an opportunistic food-related infection.

As far as Science Diet goes.. the other day, our local PetSmart put up a new Science Diet display. I don't buy SD for various reasons, but I was intrigued by the display because A) the kitten bore a striking resemblance to one of my cats, and B) said kitten did not appear to be the same animal as the cat he supposedly grew up to be "after X months of Science Diet" (different markings). Upon closer inspection, I noticed a small-print disclaimer cautioning careful readers that the results were "achieved using previous formula". I wonder what's changed.. and whether or not it's an improvement. (Given the present state of the economy, I'll admit.. I'm skeptical.)

Ramen Connoisseur January 14th, 2009 04:28:41 PM

My vet recommends Purina Dog Chow for two reasons; it's been around so long and clients with older, healthy dogs tell him that's what they feed their dogs. Sorry - won't touch the stuff. Needless to say I don't turn to him for information regarding my dog's nutrition.

C Lynch January 14th, 2009 05:54:57 PM

I've been through too many commercial foods to trust any of them anymore. I still feed them the commercial foods, but I have to switch about every year. Since the big menu foods recall (my foods were not on the recall list) all the companies have messed with their ingredients which make my cats either vomit or refuse to eat the foods, so I have to switch again. I've been through RCVD, Hills, Royal Canin, Iams, Pro Plan, just in the last 5-6 years. I'm not impressed by any of them. I get cans of food with globs of fat in them, or burnt on the bottom, at least when I'm not finding pieces of intestine or bones in them (all companies). The dry food keeps changing shapes and flavors (all companies). And what is with pet food companies that don't make a Senior Light food for cats??? Did it never occur to them that a cat could be old AND fat at the same time? And hasn't any cat food company figured out that maybe there are some cats that prefer good old BEEF flavor, not fish, not chicken, not shrimp, not rice?? I'll still keep buying the crap, and complain about it because I don't have the time or money to hand prepare home meals for 7 cats. Let alone the fact I don't trust the food I eat either, being human doesn't make our food any safer. As for my vet recommendations, I normally put a fair bit of weight to those but two different vets can't agree on what my megacolon cat should be eating. Sorry, but I'm having a bad day and the food thing usually ticks me off anyways.

cl January 14th, 2009 09:58:59 PM

And hasn't any cat food company figured out that maybe there are some cats that prefer good old BEEF flavor, not fish, not chicken, not shrimp, not rice??

There was a pet food company that used to have an ad touting beef as the "natural food of cats." At least briefly. But they were mocked and insulted for it, as people entertained the image of a housecat bring down a cow.

It used to be really difficult to find a cat food that did not contain beef somewhere in the ingredients list. I know, because I was looking, carefully reading ingredients list for the presence of that dread word "beef." Why "dread word" ? Because my now fifteen-year-old cat has a serious food intolerance for beef. Beef causes her to have diarrhea and vomiting., severe enough that for the first few years I had her, the presence or absence of beef was the consideration in deciding whether a food was acceptable or not. As beef has faded from favor in cat food, I'm much more able to shop for quality in the cats' food, without worrying that an otherwise-good choice will need to be ruled out for the presence of beef.

(My younger cat will eat home-cooked, as will the dog. The older cat, at fifteen, and with her kidneys starting to fail her, will not. Cooking for her only frustrated us both, so I stopped. She gets kibble, so that I know she's at least eating enough.)

Lis January 14th, 2009 11:16:33 PM

Lis - Sorry that your older cat cannot eat beef. Food allergies are frustrating to deal with for both owner and pet. I have a middle age cat that had megacolon and it takes coaxing to get him to eat all of his medicine. His favorite flavor is beef. I had to find a beef/liver combo he'll tolerate and mix it in with his prescription food and medicine to get him to eat it. The crunchies he's ok with but he needs predominantly canned food for the water content.

cl January 15th, 2009 12:01:40 AM

Dr. K.:

I think you may be right about whittling down the list, and the literature.  We went with the screen because we could afford it and because the single ingredient "elimination diet" experiments seemed to be way too much stress for the cat and her humans.  The screen results that showed BOTH lamb and beef  (ruminants) as well as BOTH potato and tomato (nightshade family) at least made logical sense to me.

This cat is lightweight, and a picky eater, so I've always had some concern about getting her to consume food regularly n the first place.  My vet also suggests we use Trader Joe Salmon Oil (1000 mg gel caps meant for PEOPLE) as a supplement that's good for whatever might ail her.  She suggest 500 mg. per day, so what I do i0s alternate the days.  I serve these by puncturing the cap and squeezing them out over the cat treats that are acceptable (freeze dried salmon, freeze dried chicken, or freeze dried cod.)  The one and only item that can get this cat to eat if she goes off her feed, or that motivates her is the freeze-dried chicken white meat  (label says all sourced in USA).  If she seems off her feed I reconstitute these in some water.  The powdery chicken bits from the bottom of the bag mixed with water into a gravy are something she just laps up.

On the other hand, I've tried plain cooked chicken, both meat and giblets, and she sneers at them.  It seems like she might have been raised on Iams dry food.  It took a while to convince her to eat pate-style catfood by putting it on the plate and cutting it into little squares to resemble the look of the nugget & gravy style that is now off limits due to the melamine.  She shows NO interest in people's food at all, but does inspect our drinks by smelling them.  Due to the ruminant results shown on the screen, I would not offer her any dairy product.

Her symptoms are manifested by ear scratching, sometimes to the point of drawing blood.  In the past, it seemed to be worse if she were also under stress.   There is no untoward-looking matter visible inside the ears, but she has some bald spots on the outside of the ears.  Her coat is soft and shiny and pretty otherwise and my vet says her body condition is ok, though a bit light (visible rippling muscles as she moves, but she has a close-lying Oriental coat).

I tried an organic high meat content chicken and turkey cat food once and Miss Kitty cleaned her plate.  I don't know that I'm trying for organic/wholistic here, but I'd buy that one again, just because I'm  always wondering what else she would eat if one of the brands I use now were discontinued.   Some of the wholistic lists of ingredients as wierd as the whatever-critter-it-is-feed-em-corn philosophy of the mass market brands.  The cranberries, blueberries, brown rice and potatoes seem odd for an obligate carnivore.   At least the mostly poultry-based wet food seems palatable to her, and the smell doesn't seem "off" to me.

Miss Kitty's Mom January 15th, 2009 12:24:27 AM

The crunchies he's ok with but he needs predominantly canned food for the water content.

I wish I could get my older cat to eat canned reliably. She loves it as a treat, but I could never get her to eat it consistently enough to discontinue the dry. Our cats persist in being stubborn individuals, and we struggle to meet their needs. :)

Some of the wholistic lists of ingredients as wierd as the whatever-critter-it-is-feed-em-corn philosophy of the mass market brands.  The cranberries, blueberries, brown rice and potatoes seem odd for an obligate carnivore. 

Even though cats don't get much nutrition directly from the fruits and veggies, a limited amount of the right ones in the food can aid their digestion of the meat. And well-cooked rice is digestible enough that they do get nutritional value from it. I mean, provided they don't have an intolerance for it, which, as with everything else, some do

Lis January 15th, 2009 08:24:19 AM

One of my dogs was vomitting almost every night for a couple of weeks, so we ended up on canned and then dry I/D (SD), which stopped all problems. I ended up putting all of them on it (1 had been on reduced calorie for weight, and the other 3 on senior), when I saw that the percentages of protein, fat, fiber, etc. were close enough for it to work for them all. This lasted for a little more than a year. Everyone got bloodwork at least once during that time, and most everything was great, al;though I added a senior vitamin, just to help things out, as I do think it's not the best food. With 5 dogs, though, super-premium food was out of reach for a while (and yes, prescription foods cost a lot, too, but still less, until last July, when everything went up. The biggest issue otherwise was the increase in the amoount of poop.

In the past month, the original 'problem boy' has started eating poop (he's 10 and never did it before), so we've recently switched to Innova Senior (they're all over 8 and I've got a bit more $), and while I see some poop-eating, it seems to be less (although maybe it's the cold weather forcing him back in sooner, since he's not instantaneous about coming in, usually). We'll have to see how it goes.

One thing I'd like to say, though, is that there are a huge number of people, who, while they are 'uninformed' to most of the readers of this blog, they may not be having any issues of concern in the health of their pets, so feeding something else probably isn't going to even seem sensible to them. Yes, if they were told that their pet might live to be 15 instead of 14 (cat) or 13 instead of 12 (bigger dog), but it would mean spending more time or money on food, they might change, but many wouldn't, and that doesn't make them bad pet owners. And for those people who are struggling not to lose their house, well, more expensive food is not an option. I tell some clients, in passing, that if they feel the human food is healthy (not much salt, gravy, fat, etc.), that leftovers can help stretch the commercial dog food budget, and considering they may be feeding Ol' Roy from Walmart, a helping of human stew is probably much better for them!

KateH January 15th, 2009 10:41:17 AM

Also interesting is that in the discussion section of the article it is acknowledged that the students conducting the survey identified themselves as veterinary medical students and that this could have affected the answers from the survey respondents.  I think most of us know people who feed non-commercial diets who are reluctant to discuss this with their vets.  I'm a vet student who feeds raw and when I was a new student I was terrified about having to discuss this with my professors.  I've since become much more open about it and have even had some great conversations with clinicians who were interested in hearing my views on the subject.  (My parisitology professor not so much.)  But it took becoming comfortable with the vet school process and personnel before I was able to have the courage to admit what I feed my creatures.  (Though many of my classmates wondered why I wouldn't use that free food with all my critters at home.)  I wonder what the survey responses would have been if the survey had be done by people not involved in the veterinary profession.

Ingrid January 15th, 2009 02:25:11 PM

I'm a vet that feeds raw. 6 dogs - all perfect health, great teeth, shiny coats, great behavioural needs met from chewing bones. 3 cats - same. Dogs get raw lamb / chicken frames / venision necks / cannon bones. Cats get raw chicken necks + a bit of processed food to balance out.

They don't keel over after one "unbalanced" meal any more than I do when I eat Makkers. Yes there are dangers from bones, but life doesn't give anyone a free pass so I'd rather deal with that than the damage done to their kidneys by having a dental each year for the poor animals that eat kibble all their lives !! Vets need to get a grip on this. There is immense pressure within the industry to conform to handing out Science Diet etc.

Circe January 15th, 2009 03:06:54 PM

Should have also said they get pulped veg and omega oils as well.......

Circe January 15th, 2009 03:08:16 PM

Circe, that's great to hear. Good for you.

Should I not be doing annual (or biannual) dentals on my cats?

Can I just give them chicken necks from the grocery store? This helps their teeth, doesn't it?

I also imagine that raw or lightly cooked meat is good for the teeth.

Stefani January 15th, 2009 03:51:48 PM

Stefani: Each animal's dental needs are always handled on a case-by-case basis. If your pet's teeth do not exhibit outward signs of calculus accumulation or pathological gingival changes, we may happily forego professional dentistry...indefinitely.

Then there are the pets who are so genetically prdisposed to periodontal disease that a diet of raw meaty bones is insufficient. I have seen such cases and that's why I caution raw and typical commercial feeders, alike, to not set expectations based on the texture of their pets' food alone.

Home care is cucial, too (read: brushing). Individual examination is essential (yearly exams, at a minimum). And, even then, many pets will require professional dental cleanings, regardless of their owners' assiduous care and/or choice of feeding methods.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 15th, 2009 08:22:00 PM

I totally agree that the best diet for any pet is the one they do best on. Whatever that may be. My parents had a dog that ate alot of crappy kibble but also got table scraps. That dog had a great coat, perfectly white teeth and lived a very long life. I think all dogs have different metobolisims and while some seem to ahve stomachs that are bomb proof, others are much more sensitive. For those that are worried about a raw diet being hard to do check out the book "raw dog food" By Carina MacDonald. It is more about gettting good ingredients into them than trying to be balanced, whatever that really means. To learn how to read pet food labels and for recipes if you decide to try cooking for pets there is "Food pets die for" by Ann Martin. I do a raw meal a day and one kibble meal a day. Sometimes I use Primal brand commercial raw and sometimes I mix my own. Whatever I can afford. I've even tried dehydrated. I tend to switch up the kibble I use often. I'm always in search of a better kibble, plus it seems like a good idea to me anyhow. Of course I am lucky to have dogs whos systems aren't affected by the frequent changes. http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com P.S for those that are worried you can do raw without bones if you want as well.

Marie January 15th, 2009 09:01:36 PM

Ditto on the fatty acids.

My youngest cat is prone to nasty gingivitis, even when he has very little tartar buildup. I've noticed a definite improvement since I started adding salmon oil to their food. It hasn't cut down on the frequency or number of dentals he requires, but things don't seem to get nearly as bad in between.

Ramen Connoisseur January 15th, 2009 10:47:13 PM

It was instructive to read all the comments on the problem of pet food ingredients.  I heard a lot of frustration.  This problem drove me to find a source for information that current pet food industry written labeling laws ban: transparency on the source (country) grade of ingredients contained in any given pet food. 

I found Susan Thixton, a noted author who spent 16 years researching industry practices and getting the word out about dangerous ingredients in commercial pet foods.  She has an online report that is updated monthly, and is really useful.  I blogged about her and her consumer reports style online monthly ($17.95 per year-money back if not happy after 30 days)over at www.dancingdogblog.com.  Either check that out or just Google her. I bought a subscription, and it's available 24/7.

My dog can't eat commercial foods, not even organic brands, so I have to cook everything.  I was thinking I might try some of the new brands made in the US now that I have more information and can be at ease about ingredients from China, toxic preservatives, and the rest.  Who needs to worry about feeding their dog diseased and drugged animal meat or organs?

Mary H January 17th, 2009 01:30:55 AM

I read this blog on almost a weekly basis because I find it so interesting to see the viewpoint of Dr Khuly and the issues that commonly come up in practice...I love veterinary medicine, have a BS in Animal Science, Pre Veterinary Science but elected not to go to Vet school. I have chosen the petfood industry as a career and I am very proud of what I do. I am not brainwashed into thinking only one company is the best, one diet is the best, or that a veterinarian will only choose my food. I will often say, do what works for the animal. I am not a pushy type of sales person, I form relationships, educate, and genuinly love my product. I could not do sales otherwise...it is not in my "make up". If someone asked me a nutrition related answer, I would go to my nutritionist, go to a veterinarian that I have relationships with and ask their opinio, I also have good relationships with my competitors and could even go to them to ask them what their view is on a certain topic. I then go back to the person and say this is the viewpoint from source a,b and c. I do know that not all nutrition companies are evil, we are not all about marketing, some are about science and research, good independent research. I do know they are made differently, I have seen the difference myself between a prescription run and a commerical run. There are different grades of ingredients, prescription uses the best. I will say that prescription diets can have a profound effect on an animals health and treating certain conditions. Sometimes with medications, sometimes alone. They can lengthen the life of a renal patient, stop an animal from tearing themselves apart with allergies, prevent your beloved cat from blocking with urinary stones. I have heard testimonials, seen pictures, and listening quietly in waiting rooms to owners saying how x,y, and z diet has helped their animal or even how it didn't work! We are not evil, we are not praying on the unsuspecting veterinarians pushing hogwash so we can go on our next vacation. I truely love what I do, I PROUDLY use my own diets as does every memeber of my family and many friends. Just thought I would present from a different viewpoint!

A proud Veterinary diet employee January 18th, 2009 04:34:30 PM

When my cats were 13 and 11 my vet told me the two 13 year olds had kidney failure as a result of some values in their bloodwork.  He recommended I feed prescription kidney diets and said the diets would also benefit my 11 year old even though that one was fine.  After about 8 months I was really worried as the cats seemed near death, lethargic, emaciated, and as I cut their nails I saw white nail beds.  I checked their gums which were also white, and held their ears to a light and could not see the red veins in their ears so I also thought they were anemic.  The internet said anemia could go along with kidney failure and I knew the thinness did.  I had kept going back to the vet and each time got a different brand of prescription diets for kidney failure.  So if my cats died I guess that could be normal for kidney failure.  Trouble was why was the third cat just as debilitated? That cat was fine according to bloodwork.  Then I remembered that the prescription kidney diets in the '80s was canned meat.  I checked the ingredients in the kidney diet and found it was almost all corn fractions and the 3rd ingredient  was chicken fat.  In fact just about the only animal product was the chicken fat.  I felt stupid and betrayed as cats are carnivores, so why would a vet prescrible a food for a carnivore with so little meat content?  I went to the Natural Pet Market and got some Innova EVO as it had no grains and was high protein.  My cats were out of anemia in one week.  After 4 months I took them back to my vet as they looked great.  They had regained their weight and energy and were not anemic.  Their chemistries showed they were no longer in kidney failure which is a puzzle as I'm not sure kidneys get better.  One was said to be hyperthyroid and I asked to have the lab work redone as I don't think he could have recovered if he was also hyperthyroid.  They were so near death due to malnutrition in my opinion it is a miracle what a good diet will do.  I told my vet about the malnutrition and all he said was many cats have been helped by these diets.  I disagree.  I think prescribing food for cats that is not meat is malpractice or fraud.  Vets should know better as cats are carnivores.

Today my cats are 17 and 15 and eat a raw meat diet.  My friend's cat was close to being PTS because of inappropriate urinating all over her house.  He was on kibble CD for years with no good effect.  This cat also recovered from FUS and inappropriate urination and is on a raw diet also.

 

Pat January 28th, 2009 04:18:21 PM

A fabulous topic.

Just coincidentally, I read this yesterday as well

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/no-evidence-and-dog-food-is-better-than.html

which makes great "fodder" for the type of discussion here.

I love my vets,but I feel they have just been groomed to accept what the dog food salesmen say. OTOH,if there is so much  that is bad about commercial diets, how many CME lectures ,material and journal articles have come out and said the same.? (I have no idea)  I know how long the lag was in medicine between saying no one needed vitamins to then learning the benefits of and recommending the array of vitamins and supplements we see today (and even there,the fad of one day often succumbs to better research the next)

Of course,more and more big companies are being prompted by wanting to be in the WDJ list of best foods,that they are now scambling to create competing products (and some only succeed in new labels rather than better ingredients) But they are doing that for market share,not because they have proved the foods to be better. I have to say that I was a feeder of higher end products,but my two senior dogs are now on ID (I felt like I had to hide this from friends and felt guilty).but they are doing great on it and whenever I try to taper them off to "something better",they get into trouble. I have a foster dog that I am switching from Science Diet to a no grain kibble (which I had in the house);.Even tho I switched gradually, he isn't doing well,getting loose stools,so now I combine some ID with the kibble.(and adding an digestive enzyme product seems to make things worse)

If he were my own dog, I would try a commercial raw diet,but this dog is relatively healthy,altho he could use a less greasy coat.I balked at the raw food diets for my eldest dog, because of the high fat content and a tendency for my breed to pancreatitis. He is an epileptic also and that is what started me on a quest for the "best food" for him and reading labels assiduously,etc. It is common among owner of "epi-dogs" to blame anyting the dog has sniffed as having caused their pets last seizure. We become so desperate to prevent the episodes,where we feel so helpless.

I understand what the terrier blogger meant about feeding out of guilt,but there are many things I still would never feed my dog and I think we all have to just find what's best. for our own dogs. The veterinary diets are getting a bit better (some of them) and I have to womder what might have happened with my eldest (15 yo )dog had he been on raw from the get-go. He's had numerous medical problems in the last 7 years,even while I changed to "better" foods,but the foundation might have been laid,or it might not have mattered a bit.

Please understand that I am impressed with the stories I hear of mnay of my raw diet friends and for some dogs,the diet is nothing short of miraculous. I have subscribed to the Whole dog Journal for years but in the end what is correct comes down to the owner and the individual dog.

On another topic, has anyone heard about the Purina vs Wysong lawsuit? Purina is now trying to sue Wysong,who first added probiotics to their food  15 years ago.Now Purina has patented the idea and is suing Wysong for taxes on the revenue from such products (this will affect all other companies that do the same thing.) It's outrageous.

Marsha February 10th, 2009 10:28:55 AM

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شات May 28th, 2009 02:01:50 AM

<p><span lang="ar-qa"><a href="شات'>http://www.3trqatar.com/">شات صوتي</a></span></p>

شات May 28th, 2009 02:04:35 AM