Wow , opened my eyes ! I really didnt know this happened. And YES I have said that I need to put the dog in the truck and get my purse. Having the Doc look at me funny. me not knowing why , would go to the truck , put the dog in the crate and come back in with my purse and the Doc look at me surprised. I seriously didnt know people did this. I will always know better after reading this! Thanks for the eye opener ;)

Donna January 14th, 2009 09:46:29 AM

When we go to the university hospital nearby (small or large animal), they usually demand some portion of the bill in advance.  When our horse was hospitalized, we even got a refund,since she didn't need as much work as was feared.

I've never known why other vets don't do the same thing. You're here for an emergency surgery?  Half of the overly-large-estimate in advance, please.  Shots?  Exam and vaccine fees in advance, please, and any additional fees will be settled after the exam (shampoo, food, flea control, etc).

Galadriel January 14th, 2009 09:56:23 AM

re: "Next thing you know the news media is at your door instead of the police"

From what I've seen, that's usually only the case when the vet refuses to release the animal. And no matter what the cause, IMHO, that's inexcusable.

I'm fine with you calling the police. That seems fair enough. Or court. Etc. But -- not that you mentioned it -- seizing pets is beyond the pale and does happen in some of these cases.

The hospital's not allowed to hold children or kill them when there is a balance on the hospital bill. Vets shouldn't be able to do it with our pets, whether or not the law allows it. If a vet refuses to give the animal back -- or worse, as some do, reminds the owner that he can legally euthanize the pet -- he deserves every ounce of bad publicity he gets, in my opinion.

Call the cops? Fine. Take em to court to get the money? Fine. Don't ever see them again? Fine. But don't seize their animals.

I'm all for vets being paid for their services, but taking people's animals or worse, killing them, is no way to deal with an unpaid bill and speaks volumes about the people who do it.

stefani January 14th, 2009 10:07:59 AM

We had a new client drop off his dog for an emergency exam, and it turned out he had an abscessed tooth. We didn't have room in the schedule to do the procedure that day, and told him we would need to schedule the dental for the next day. He came to pick up his dog, yelled that obviously we didn't consider his dog to be an important patient, and he'd take him to his regular vet the next day (note we're not an emergency clinic, so I don't know why he didn't bring him to her regular vet to begin with?). As he started walking out the door, our receptionist told him that he needed to pay for the emergency exam. The man said that he didn't have any money with him because she didn't think we'd charge him for anything... and could he just come back tomorrow to pay?

So our officer manager gets called up to talk to him, and explains that when he dropped off the dog he signed a form stating that he agreed to pay at the time services are rendered. The man yelled that we were discriminating against her because she was German (??) and we didn't think he'd come back to pay. Needless to say, he left without paying and never came back. *sigh*

The kicker is that I discovered that he is a professor of communications at a local college.

Megan January 14th, 2009 10:12:25 AM

I would hope the police would recognise this as theft, if they don't the need a little more education! I guess I now understand all those forms I need to sign up front these days agreeing to treatment and the price estimate. I have certainly had times where paying those bills required popping out and doing a rapid beg/borrow for a higher than expected payment before picking up my pet--but I certainly never considered skipping out. Given that the vet has all my information I assumed that would bring the police or a collection agency to my door.

emily January 14th, 2009 10:14:12 AM

"The man yelled that we were discriminating against her because she was German (??) and we didn't think he'd come back to pay."

That should say discriminating against HIM because HE was German...

Megan January 14th, 2009 10:19:45 AM

stefani: It's illegal for us to hold pets for ransom. In the situation I described the woman snatched her pet from the hospital cage and ran--only later (after the hospital threatened to send her to collections) did she claim that they had stolen her dog and she was simply trying to relieve him of his captors. Nutjob.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 10:32:08 AM

Wow, I take my purse in with me to the vet's, but often I ask if I can put my dog in the car and come back in to pay rather than try to deal with a lobby full of yapping dogs and my own little yapper yapping in return. It never even occurred to me to speed off without paying. I look at my vet/client relationship as also banking consideration as a future client as well - not in an attempt to get freebies or perks, but as a way to develop a relationship with my vet and her VTs and receptionists. I WANT to be known as a client who will pay when I make an appointment. If the time ever comes that I have a bill that is too large to pay in one fell swoop, I want my vet to feel comfortable offering me her pay-over-time program--and indeed BE ABLE to offer it in the future due to people who actually PAY THEIR BILLS. Sorry to yell; I just don't get people sometimes. :) WHO DOES THIS!!?

Shasta January 14th, 2009 10:36:30 AM

The police certainly understand if you walk out of the 7/11 with a bag of chips you didn't pay for that its theft. So I find it hard to believe that they don't get that walking out without paying your much larger vet bill isn't. They probably just don't want to have to deal with it. I was at my dentist one tme when the office manager was explaining over the phone why they wouldn't schedule an appointment with a patient. Seemed she had run up a $5000 plus bill over 2 years and said couldn't pay it (but did have to schedule her appointment before she went to Florida for the winter). That's just unforgivable. Do these folks not understand that small practices owners, employees are not generally rolling in $$? I guess because most dentists/vets won't send the bills on to collection agencies - the person just looks at it as a interest free loan at worst. Unfortunately, this is going to lead to more and more places doing what Galadriel mentioned - asking for a credit card imprint up front. And I can't blame them.

2PetMom January 14th, 2009 10:41:52 AM

Re: "It's illegal for us to hold pets for ransom."

Thanks for the clarification on the law in Florida, and on the prior story. Liars suck.

Just FYI, it's not illegal in all states. Georgia, for example -- Big news story a couple of years ago. See this story synopsis.

Stefani January 14th, 2009 10:52:33 AM

I left once without paying, but it was an accident!  The vet and I got all wrapped up in making sure I understood the meds needed, and I got my kitty back with his fixed up paw and waved cheerily and said "Thanks!" and off we went.

I was about 5 minutes down the road when it occured to me that I had not paid for the visit.

I turned the car around immediately.  Walked back in to pay, embarassed as all get out - fortunately the gals working the desk laughed and assured me that had I not come back, they would have called me at the end of the day.

Still - I was completely mortified, but so grateful that they were not only understanding, but had a good sense of humor about it to boot.

Cindy January 14th, 2009 11:08:38 AM

I know that these things happen all the time. I hear all the storys from my VT friend. Scary, luckily though, the office policy hasn't changed becasuse of it. I had to have some emergency surgery on my doggie. The bill was crazy high (best money I ever spent though) but they allowed me to give them 4 post dated checks. Which made it SOO much easier on me. Since then they have also let me do that with other issues that have happened. I couldn't be more grateful for that. So I guess I am just glad that they still try to help out us poor people :) Does anyone know if this is a common practice? B/C I don't know how I would have saved my dog if I had to come up with that much money right away. Is my vet office just super nice in that respect?

Loren January 14th, 2009 11:28:08 AM

Loren: I've tried the post-dated checks. I've also tried getting signed credit card slips to be run through at a later, specified date. They've failed to work out in many (most?) cases. Insufficien funds, overlimits, etc. It's great for good clients. It's not anything I'd rely on for someone I've seen only a couple of times.

Normally, we don't ask for $ up front but lately I've been asking half for first-timers on any given procedure, particularly if it's an emergency.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 11:53:57 AM

My previous vet required that all charges for surgery (or any reason a pet was kept out back) be paid before the client was brought in to see the vet. The vet would talk to the client, THEN bring the pet out. Eliminated a lot of this kind of problem.

of course there were the general visits where the owner had their hands on the pet the whole time that could happen to.

It does irk me when people are looking for free or extremely discounted vet services. They think that the price is way too high, but they never really stop to think what they are paying for. They expect a wal*mart kind of world, but not wanting wal*mart service..

Connie January 14th, 2009 12:31:47 PM

I always hate having to tell clients that our clinic has an absolutely no payment plan policy, but unfortunately it's how it has to be. We do, however, accept credit cards - after all, that's kind of the whole point of a credit card...having a payment plan for yourself in the case of an emergency. And if the client replies that they can't get approved for a credit card (or even CareCredit)...well, then why in the world would we extend credit to them? Even then, we still have clients who knowingly come into the office with zero funds, approve procedures after having been shown an estimate, and then get to the front desk and say they can't pay. Off to collections they go - no mercy, and I don't feel bad about that. If they are up front about their lack of funds when they come in, we work with them best we can to prioritize treatment or to direct them to a clinic that will accept post-dated checks, etc. It's probably one of the most frustrating aspects of working in veterinary medicine - we're expected to love their animal enough to take on its financial responsibility.

anna January 14th, 2009 01:02:48 PM

I've always heard that it is legal for vets to hold animals until they are paid in full, in cases where it is a huge bill. I guess it depends on state though. I don't think many vets would do it though. I work at a grooming shop and whenever people say they have to run out to get money, I "offer" to hold the animal for them. Unless it was a great client that we're familiar with, we wouldn't let them walk out the door before paying. Its easier to snatch an animal from a cage that from someone's hand, i would think. But there are always nutjobs that have no shame. Its one thing to decline a service if you can't afford it (for example bloodwork when its nice to check on what's happening but not essential to the case). Its another to bitch about price after you already said do it. My vet is great about accomodating such people and giving them minor service discounts to appease them (like to not charge for ear cleaning or something). But it is still upsetting to see people throw tantrums and get away with it.

Tatyana January 14th, 2009 01:15:08 PM

Just a few minutes ago our hospital received a call from a client whose payment plan included a post-dated check. It bounced. But she needs to come in for a new problem with her pet. I really want to help. In fact, I really like this person. But I'm just not at liberty to keep carrying her. Uncharacteristically, my bosses put their foot down in this case, too.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 01:16:04 PM

I guess I don't understand the reluctance to call the police or file a suit in small claims to collect these bills -- any other business, big or small, would do so. Good clients end up subsidizing the deadbeats via higher prices to cover the losses if you make no effort to collect them.

Mary Straus January 14th, 2009 02:40:45 PM

Mary: Small claims is expensive (timewise, anyway). Collections are expensive (they take a big chunk). I've never been in a position to execute on any of these anyway, associate that I am.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 03:11:38 PM

Tatyana, re:

"whenever people say they have to run out to get money, I "offer" to hold the animal for them . . . we wouldn't let them walk out the door before paying. Its easier to snatch an animal from a cage that from someone's hand, i would think. But there are always nutjobs that have no shame."

So, basically, as a GROOMER you are saying that you will withhold an animal for payment; you are talking about "snatching" animals?

You think that's all ok?

And you think the clients are the "nutjobs" with "no shame?"

Very interesting.

Again, I'm totally against deadbeats, but there is NO excuse for holding people's animals under any circumstances. Whether it's legal or not.

Stefani January 14th, 2009 04:30:08 PM

Another peeve? Clients who think that dumping an animal because they didn't like the bill relieves them of the responsibility to pay.

A deadbeat owner brought a cat (who now belongs to my best friend) in with a particularly ugly bite wound abscess. (I was working in the clinic's kennel at the time.) She consented to have the cat treated and snap-tested.. and was then incensed when the hospital expected payment for their services. She stormed off and abandoned the cat, I suspect under the assumption that this would relieve her of any financial responsibility. As I remember it, they kept the cat until he could be considered legally abandoned, and sent her a letter informing her that if she didn't pick up the cat within X number of days, they were not liable to hold him any longer. She reaffirmed that she did not want the cat back, signed her rights away.. and was even more incensed when she then received a bill for services rendered plus boarding fees. (Because she'd just stormed off without any further correspondence, they were required to hold the cat- hence the boarding fee.)

This happened on a number of occasions. In another instance, an owner consented to have his cat neutered and vaccinated, among other things. As an afterthought, he decided to snap-test. When the cat tested positive for FIV, the owner refused to pay because he did not want an FIV+ cat. He didn't want to "waste his money" on an animal with a chronic condition, despite the fact that the cat was young, recently infected, and otherwise healthy. (As if it were the clinic's fault the owner spent the past two years kicking his stinky tom outdoors to scrap with the neighborhood cats instead of bothering to do the responsible thing and neuter him?) As we  had no place for him (but didn't want to euthanize- he was an incredible cat), I got stuck fostering him. (He still reeked, and my cats were not pleased.) In the end, the FIV kitty found a wonderful home.. and "Dad", much to his chagrin, still got stuck footing the bill for services rendered.

I was glad they generally followed through and made these people pay.

Ramen Connoisseur January 14th, 2009 05:17:11 PM

You are damn right......THEFT is stealing! Don't people get arrested for shop-lifting?? Doesn't your car get reposessed, if no payments are made??

FRAUD is stealing just as much as theft! You knew I was going to add that, Dr. K.??!!

What the heck?? My credit was RUINED with a $600 collections placed by a vet. The only portion of the $3700 (between the 2 scammer clinics), I REFUSED to pay a vet in my entire pet-owning/vet visiting life! Oh gee whiz, NO FRAUD here, just kept my beloved 11 1/2 yr. old alive in a cage for a week, lying every day, and then inhumanely euthanize her in my arms...yippee.

Sorry, just for the benefit of the newbies, all the long-timers will just skip it.

Barbara A. Albright/advocate for ethical veterinary medicine in New Hampshire as a life-long resident/Pocket's Story from NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 14th, 2009 05:28:39 PM

Stefani: I think "offering" means that you're giving the client the option. That's not unethical at all.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 14th, 2009 05:29:04 PM

On a less sarcastic note, things are going pretty bad out there already. Loss of jobs, cuts in pay, increase in crime. Everyone needs to be ultra careful, because of the overall desperation.

Pets are already paying a big price, the "disposable luxury".

I stood behind a young man in line that commented his business is going into the dumper and he will work for $5/hr. if offered. I felt pretty darn SAD to hear that, most high school kids would have turned their noses up at that a year ago, and this man was probably mid-20's.

Barbara Albright

Pocket's Story from NH January 14th, 2009 07:26:23 PM

I can relate to being stiffed by patients.. How about a mother who sends her teens in to be seen with no intention of paying the copays, and they add up fast.. Then the mother gets indignant about not knowing she owes so much, and switches physicians annoyed that we didn't trust that she would pay..

My lab tech had adopted a pit a couple of months ago, and the pup ended up with mange, and parvo.. I suggested my vet.. The dog passed away.. and  my tech was left with a $1000 bill.. I'm happy to say that she's been paying it off slowly.. I imagine that she's not the norm.. but it makes me feel good..

barri January 14th, 2009 07:37:19 PM

Unfortunately getting stiffed is just another cost of being in this business. The best way to reduce these are to use estimates and deposits, especially for new clients. Many pets that are presented for emergencies are by owners that never (or rarely) use veterinarians. Many of them have no idea what costs are and if you blindside them with a big bill, they will find a way not to pay. It is good business and only fair to clients to give them as realistic an estimate as you can. The success rate of small claims and collection agencies are very low, you are rarely the only one these folks have stiffed. Many of these folks are used to getting their own health care free and don't understand there is no medicaid for animals. Asking for a deposit will force the owner to face the reality of the situation. It will help weed out the "Do what ever he needs, I don't care what it costs...... I am not going to pay it anyway" folks. In a potential life threatening situation, I believe that ethics do require us to do an initial evaluation and at least initial stabilization or palliative care before costs are discussed. You are going to have to absorb some costs, and unfortunately pass them on to the paying clients.

Hobson January 14th, 2009 08:01:32 PM

In Illinois-there is criminal law and civil. Cops handle CRIMINAL. You have a right to your payment for services rendered. But at my vet, everyone signs the slip that says the owner os responsible for the bill-yattayattay. That is a written contract and when it is breached it is a CIVIL matter. Even if you don't sign such a paper, you have entered into an ORAL agreement and again, when that agreement is broken it si CIVIL. You DO have recourse... in a civil court of law. That is the difference between the two - civil and criminal. Cops only handle criminal.

agadoresmama January 14th, 2009 08:43:04 PM

Stefani:
Yes as a groomer I can hold the animal while the client runs out to get their money. Because we do not want anyone trying the "grab and run" trick. If the person needs to go out to get their money they can do so with the animal in our holding. If they want to dispute the price or whatever they can do so with the animal present.

And no, we have never actually kept animals because people refused to pay (although we've had several animals abandoned at the shop). And we don't intend to. If an owner has a problem we can deal with it right there on the spot. But if they grab the animal and run never to be heard from again because they dont want to pay their bill, it qualifies them as both shameless and a nutjob as far as I'm concerned.

Tatyana January 14th, 2009 09:19:52 PM

I'd like to add that even if the collection agency is unable to recover the funds, being able to trash a client's credit is still worth pursuing. Of course, I only mean this towards clients who knowingly and unethically abscond on their bills, lest anyone think I'm mean-spirited.

anna January 14th, 2009 11:14:08 PM

Hobson: I do remember reading that in the AVMA guidelines...and you do too! Completely agree that written estimate is in order and gosh, wonder how it is viewed when the charges exceed the "top" of the estimate by 25-30%??

I am stupified over the thought of someone actually planning in "advance" to bring their dog for grooming......and grabbing the dog, dashing out the door! I can't imagine someone that is a "deadbeat" having the "vanity" to want their pet looking nice!

Deadbeats are just that, I suppose no attempt to "de-fraud" happens to deadbeats. Barbara A./NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 14th, 2009 11:15:27 PM

God Bless all vets. I am in rescue and am at my vets every other day or so ,with a Fido or Fluffy with everything imaginable wrong with them on a regular basis. I am allowed to run a tab but make sure that it gets paid on everytime I go in with a new problem. Without my vet, my own companions wouldnt be as healthy and happy as they are . Several hundred strays wouldnt have new homes. There is a difference in people for sure. There are the animal people and then there are the `others` who feel that animals are a disposable commodity much like an old pair of shoes . Why pay to have the shoes fixed when they can just go out and get another pair. A kick in the credit would be good for these people. Maybe there should be a do not allow credit for these people much like the one that we rescuers have that is `Do Not Adopt To`

JMO

kirasmom January 15th, 2009 08:11:39 AM

"Normally, we don't ask for $ up front but lately I've been asking half for first-timers on any given procedure, particularly if it's an emergency.”

I think I’d rather pay up front all the time and, as a regular client, be “trusted” during an emergency to pay up.  I can plan and budget for the usual care but, even with a fund set aside, an emergency is usually emotional as well.  Finances have to be discussed and owners should certainly make decisions they can live with, including live with financially but there’s still an emotional component.  I also wonder if consistently requiring up front payment would cut down on the “dine and dash” thefts; making the occasional hit for non-payment from emergency care sting a little less.

“I guess I don't understand the reluctance to call the police or file a suit in small claims to collect these bills -- any other business, big or small, would do so. Good clients end up subsidizing the deadbeats via higher prices to cover the losses if you make no effort to collect them.”  Mary Straus

“Small claims is expensive (timewise, anyway). Collections are expensive (they take a big chunk).”

Theft by deception (dine and dash) or theft by check (hot check), in most jurisdictions, is both a civil and a criminal matter.  However, trying to get police or even prosecutors in most jurisdictions to act on these is often difficult at best these days and more and more businesses are eating these bad debts and passing them on to paying clients/customers.  While I understand what Doc (do you mind that knick? old habits die hard) is saying, I’d encourage all businesses and professionals to push for prosecution and file civilly as well.  Word gets around where people can get away with getting free services this way and paying clients pay the price not just in higher fees but in the distrust shown them by the business/provider.  When the provider is a professional, it can’t help but jade their perspective over the years.  (And check with your attorney to see if you can add on charges to cover the collection costs even if the collector works on a percentage of recovery fee.  You may be able to add a percentage or flat amount that before sending it to collection that will back out/cover the collection fees.)

Hobson, May I point out that many people do without health care for themselves because they can’t afford it?  It isn’t just a “Medicaid mentality” but that it is even tougher to see your closest companion in distress and knowing that you can’t afford even care for them that is tough for many during lousy economic times.  There’s simply no denying that Vet care has gone up in cost far more than many other services in recent years.  Just like human doctors, Vets have more to offer now but, for the poor, that’s merely more they know they don’t have access to and it may be even more painful to let a pet die than know that one will die oneself because of similar choices they must make.

PJBoosinger January 15th, 2009 08:29:25 AM

When a 'part-time' client (only comes in for big problems, often 'cause they were lax about regular care) told me that they hadn't paid another vet when a different dog had been HBC, and didn't make it through surgery, I made sure there was a notation on the chart to get $ up front whenever possible - and I didn't feel bad about it, either. Yet, when a brand new client had a problem with lack of $, I got the manager to take payments. The difference was the attitude of the clients. The first was just about proud that they stiffed the vet, the other was clearly embarassed and upset that her pet would suffer because of her being between jobs. I think that, while it's hard to know objectively who's going to not pay, that sometimes it is easy to deny or take a chance depending on the person.

KateH January 15th, 2009 11:07:45 AM

I thought of another alternative. The feed & supply store "posts" the bounced checks & names of the "bad customer" prominently behind the register.

It is difficult to "tread" tactfully. No doubt I would be insulted if asked for money up-front by my regular clinic. Not at all insulted by a specialty hospital.

Oddly, the times I've switched clinics over the 30 years, have never been asked for money upfront. Perhaps the "intro form" where USPS employment gets written in, makes an automatic inference, since you don't become employee, nor "retain" employment with any sort of "bad record", including driver violations!!

Barbara A./NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 15th, 2009 12:32:10 PM

I don't think posting a bad check list is proper in a Vet clinic. But I do pay close attention when I see one in a local business that does, we usually have the same deadbeats.

Hobson January 15th, 2009 03:21:44 PM

What my vet and the university clinic in town do is to get the client to sign something outlining the work to be done, under what circumstances they are to "do what is necessary" during the procedure and when they are to contact you for a decision regarding anything further that comes up, along with an estimate as to how much it will cost.  I don't know if this amounts to some sort of legal contract but I would think that it would have some sway in a court of law.  I've never been asked for money up front - but then again when we have needed emergency services it has been after years of being a regular client or as a result of a referral  from our regular vet.

The university clinic also takes your car number plate - to ensure that you don't get a parking fine - but it would make tracking down a service theif much easier.  Our dentist does the same thing.

We have a mowing/gardening business and have been on the receiving end of "theft of services" too - the surprising thing is that it doesn't happen more often I guess.  The ones that really get me are not so much the ones that simply don't pay because this is how they do business, but the ones that have contracted for a service knowing very well that they can't pay such as being on the verge of a mortgagee-in-possesion situation/bankruptcy.  I guess they are desperate.  I do find it strange that a kid who pinches a packet of felt-tip pens can be thrown in jail as a criminal yet theft of services is regarded as something that is essentially a civil matter to be handed through debt-collection channels - it is a strange world!

Isn't passing a bad check actually fraud?

Alison (in Australia) January 15th, 2009 07:02:37 PM

At our vets, if a critter is in for surgery or whatever, they are not brought out to you until you have settled the bill (or set up payments). Then they bring out the critter. You are told how to care for them, what the meds are, etc etc but the pet is not brought out until the front desk says so.

If the pet is there for an office visit, they don't do this, of course. But I have heard them tell new clients that a partial payment is expected.

We're long time clients there and they work with us on our bill. In December alone we accrued over $2400 in two surgeries (same dog) and visits by two other pets. Most of it is coming out in monthly withdraws on my bank account (debit card withdrawals) and the rest we pay toward every 2 weeks. They work with us not because our credit is good, but because we've been coming to them for nearly ten years and pay our bills.

The only time I have walked out without paying or even discussing payments is for euthenasias. They don't discuss the bill at that time and let the owners leave.

I just hope we never have to go to the only emergency animal hospital again. It costs a minimal fee (just under $100) before they even look at the pet. Then they want the full price before anything is done. Friend of mine had two dogs get into a fight. Nothing new, except one of them had a cut very close to her eye. She took them to the emergency clinic, paid the up-front fee, and they took her pet into the back. They came out later and said they were busy (there was no one there and she'd heard someone say how there was no pets in the back) and she could come back before morning to get her dog. They told her to pay another $100 and they'd deal with the rest later. When she picked up her dog, the total bill was $600 -- for three stitches. It included a huge "overnight stay" fee. She protested the bill because it was not her idea the dog stay nor was the dog that ill it had to stay. They told her she'd signed a paper agreeing to pay the bill. She still protested as she paid it  in full then later returned and spoke with them again. They eventually removed the "overnight stay" charge when she produced a time line (from the bill) that showed her dog was there just a few hours. I am sure they have the pay up front policy because people don't return to pick up the animal after it has been repaired but, come on, being nice goes both ways. We've decided that unless we can't bandage the wound enough or there are bones sticking through the skin, we will wait for our vet's office to open before we'll go there.

PaulaO January 15th, 2009 11:00:56 PM

PJBoosinger's comment: “I guess I don't understand the reluctance to call the police or file a suit in small claims to collect these bills -- any other business, big or small, would do so."

Do you realize the negative publicity among clients if they find out that their vet took clients to court?  If I found out that my vet took a client to court, I would be looking for a new vet! All vets know the negative publicity of such actions--that's why vets avoid police and courts.

Fotini January 16th, 2009 01:36:22 AM

I think it depends on the situation, I think most clients would understand us taking a deadbeat to court if we acted in good faith all the way down the line. (Holding a pet hostage is a different story) Stealing is taking something of value and not paying for it. Stealing is wrong. Most people understand that. However, the time and effort to take someone to court is not worth the effort because even if you get a judgement, it rarely does you any good. You rarely collect anything, these folks will lie to the judge and make promises they won't keep. If there was an effective and ethical way to collect from these guys, I think the paying clients who subsidize the deadbeats would support us.

Hobson January 16th, 2009 09:33:01 AM

You can keep Fluffy "hostage" until the bill is paid- and if the owner doesn't pay after 3 months you can even auction off Fluffy to the highest bidder to pay the bill.

Florida law provides a lien for veterinary services upon the animal: Section 713.655, Fla. Stat.  establishes a lien "[i]n favor of any veterinarian who renders professional services to an animal at the request of the owner of the animal, the owner's agent, or a bailee, lessee, or custodian of the animal, for the unpaid portion of the fees for such professional services, upon the animal to which such services were rendered. Such lien shall remain valid and enforceable for a period of 1 year from the date the professional services were rendered, and such lien is to be enforced in the manner provided for the enforcement of other liens on personal property in this state."

Not neccessarily the wisest tactic for public relations, but effective.

Marcy LaHart, Esq, January 16th, 2009 05:41:33 PM

As others have stated, taking a client to small claims court is expensive (your time is valuable) and time-consuming, and you usually end up with nothing anyway.  The one time our clinic did this, we got exactly $0, even though the judge ordered the client to pay.  Turns out that it is OUR responsibility to make sure she follows the court order - if we could make her pay, we wouldn't have taken her to SCC!

Calling the police is an option, but can cause ugly scenes, and, in our area, the response time is slow.  Even with a client who is threatening us, they show up a couple of hours later.  It has only happened a couple of times, but it was pretty scary!

Collections has helped some.  We at least get some of our costs covered.  But yes, those costs have to be factored in to our prices, so those who pay like they should subsidize the deadbeats.  That's why we don't (usually) allow payment plans.

I hate hearing a client say "Money is no object", because it usually means that they don't intend to pay anyway.  Whenever we hear that, we ask for a substantial deposit, and then are usually called all sorts of names, and are told we have no love for animals, since we won't treat them for free.

As for held checks, we do allow them, but are having more problems with them.  Just last week a client picked up his dog after surgery, and paid with a check.  He said nothing about holding the check.  His wife came in the next day to 'pay cash and pick up the held check'.  I got in trouble for not holding the check; the check bounced, the wife didn't pay (she was mad and flounced out), AND the head receptitonist credited their account for their bounced check fee because 'it was our fault'.  I protested to the manager, who called and talked to the husband, who admitted he did not ask me to hold the check, though he knew it would bounce.  Why all this rigamarole if they didn't intend to pay in the first place?  Grrrrrr!

What it comes down to:  if you receive goods or services, you must pay for them.  Period!

Sassy January 16th, 2009 08:05:19 PM

Fotini, I was actually quoting someone else.  Yes, there could be some negative PR but I'm not thrilled about my bill being larger because others aren't paying their bills so I'd support my Vet in collecting.  (Wouldn't be happy with holding the pet hostage though no matter what the law said about a lien.)

Hobson, I'll be supportive if subsidizing doesn't add too awful much to my bill but there's certainly a tipping point in there somewhere.

Unfortunately, attorneys are taught how to get a judgment but few know how to collect it and get paid for doing so.  However, it is possible in the vast majority of cases.  I practiced in Texas which has some of the most protective exemption laws and it was tougher here than elsewhere but I usually got my clients' money and mine too which didn't come out of theirs.

PJBoosinger January 16th, 2009 10:30:27 PM

Wow! This one really hit home. We recently had a young woman bring in a new kitten for first exam, vaccinations. Our receptionists are alway very clear when scheduling new clients that x is the cost for the physical exam, y is the cost for the vaccines, and any other services will be extra. When the kitten was examined, it had  horrible ear mite and upper respiratory infections. She authorized the ear cleaning, treatment and antibiotics for the URI, and paid her bill without a word. Two hours later her father was screaming in the lobby. He was irate that the kitten didn't recieve the booster that the appointment was scheduled for, yet the bill was a little higher than the receptionist quoted for and exam and vaccine. When the practice owner came up to to explain why, he said his daughter was never informed that there would be extra charges involved. He had the nerve to threaten to call the DA, and told my boss that he understands the economy is bad, but that is no reason to con people out of their money.He was irate that the kitten didn't recieve the booster that the appointment was scheduled for, yet the bill was a little higher than the receptionist quoted for and exam and vaccine.Needless to say, we suggested that maybe another veterinary clinic would be better suited to meet their families needs. I feel very sorry for whatever clinic they choose......

Nikki January 17th, 2009 03:04:01 PM

Attorney La Hart . . . re: "You can keep Fluffy "hostage" until the bill is paid- and if the owner doesn't pay after 3 months you can even auction off Fluffy to the highest bidder to pay the bill . . . Not neccessarily the wisest tactic for public relations, but effective."

Surely you can't find such liens morally defensible?

I know you are an animal person. Whether or not this is legal is NOT the point. Whether it is moral is the point. Not all things that are legal are morally defensible.

My cats are, to me, right up there with my family -- in fact, I consider them family. No, I don't think of them as children or partners or as humans at all. But I don't need to see them as human in order for them to be worth as much to me as a human would be. I only think seizing and selling pets for non-payment should be legal if seizing and selling children for non-payment is legal. Of course, that's not the way it is but that's a moral equivalent to me.

We all know that pets are property in the eyes of the law, BUT WE ALSO KNOW that NO person who loves their pets considers them mere property.

It's complete schizophrenia for a veterinarian, in a "helping" profession, supposedly with some FEELING for animals, to seize a thinking feeling being, leave it in a cage for a prolonged period, deprive it of the ability to go home and ever be reunited with the family it knows and loves. For nonpayment of a bill!

That may be legal, but the law needs to change. Though that is legal, any vet who does this HAS NO BUSINESS BEING A VET because he or she HAS LOST ALL FEELING (if s/he ever had it to begin with) for their patients or the people who love them. When you are at that point, you need to get your butt out of the profession pronto.

Worse still, some vets take advantage of the law that allows them to dispose of the animal as they so choose after a number of days -- i.e., kill them. Any vet who does that, AGAIN, legal or not, NEEDS TO HAVE THEIR LICENSE forcibly taken away.

No, their licenses aren't taken away. And I, and others like me, intend to keep screaming from the highest building until that type of veterinarian is exposed and driven from the profession.

As I have said before, vets have a right to be paid. I don't expect vets to provide me or anyone else with free services, and I understand the frustration of vets who are constantly hearing "but I thought you loved animals . . . I only have $15." I get it. That is why I say -- take them to court, drop them as clients, ruin their credit, whatever you gotta do if clients stiff you for a big chunk of change.

But under no circumstances, ever, remove a pet forcibly from its home over such a thing. Totally immoral. Totally unconscionable. No one who would or could do such a thing has any business being a vet.

Stefani January 17th, 2009 03:57:49 PM

Stefani: I can assure you that Ms. LaHart does NOT defend veterinarians in this matter. Her views are similar to yours on this front (if I can speak for her). She was merely correcting my statement that in FL it's illegal to hold "property" for payment. Her slight snark might have been lost in the deadpan but it's clear to me that most of us here do NOT defend this kind of practice.

Dr. Patty Khuly January 18th, 2009 09:11:17 AM

The Florida lien law has been on the books for some time. I would imagine that it's initial intent aplied mainly to livestock and not pets. Unfortunatley it does not make any distinction.

Hobson January 18th, 2009 01:02:18 PM

Stefani:"That may be legal, but the law needs to change. Though that is legal, any vet who does this HAS NO BUSINESS BEING A VET because he or she HAS LOST ALL FEELING (if s/he ever had it to begin with) for their patients or the people who love them. When you are at that point, you need to get your butt out of the profession pronto."

Having experienced the "above" first-hand, it does not appear to matter a hoot, whether the vet follows the LAW or BREAKS it. Elderly, children, and animals rank the lowest for advocacy and protection.....animals having virtually none.

But the saddest and most abhorrent of all, is when a profession allows the immoral and unethical to continue causing great "harm", when surely their degree and training can avail themselves to positions outside of the public or causing such harm.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 18th, 2009 01:42:08 PM

Thanks, Dr. K. It didn't sound like something attny. LaHart would say as an animal lover -- but I took it literally. So much can get lost on the net in terms of, um, tone. And being a lawyer I know can do odd things to people -- no offense intended, atty LaHart, I think the world needs more animal lawyers like you. To help change the way things are so this kind of thing will no longer be legal.

Stefani January 18th, 2009 06:47:33 PM

I'm reading this and I will share that as a pet owner who had to bring in a bloated dog to the ER, I did feel discrimated against. I arrived to the ER where I was locked out of the office for *30 minutes.* I could see people inside, but they never bothered to open the door despite me ringing and knocking. I didn't know whether to high-tail it to the other ER that was almost 20 miles away or to wait for the VT to open the door. As soon as someone else drove up, the VT opened their door for them in less than 3 minutes.

I was charged $500 twice (so $1000) before they would even start helping my dog. I did kept my mouth shut, swallowing my anger and frustration, so they would help my dog.

My dog had to be euthanized because his intestines twisted, but not before they told me that he was in alot of pain and the pain-killers they gave him were not working.

It still tears me up to think that he suffered because of discrimination against me.

Ann January 18th, 2009 11:45:18 PM

Well that is two postings about the scary "ER". PaulaO: I have been in your situation, fortunately my dog's torn eyerim (happened to have a melanoma flap attached) was repaired after hours with me assisting...I was out of there with my dog in less than 30 minutes...no $600 for the few stitches.

Ann: Been there too, three times as a matter of fact, no ER...but once again after hours---no $1000.00, dog did not have complete torsion , relieved via tubing, very elderly, multiple medical issues, and humanely euthanized on the 3rd bloat.

Hobson, around here the "office manager" goes to small claims court (or so I've been informed) OR put the deadbeat into collections...why not? Happened to ME!

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH January 19th, 2009 09:30:32 PM

At the veterinary hospital where I work, we don't hold pets but what we do is hold the meds instead. If they try the "I forgot my wallet" bit we tell them that we'll keep their medication for them until they can come back and pay their bill. They nearly always end up coming back for the meds and paying, it works pretty well. But we do have a lot of people who come in for first puppy vax and run off. Unfortunately you cannot pull the vaccines back out of the dog and there is nothing we can do other than send them to collections. And it's pretty silly because the stupid people don't realize that their pup needs a series of boosters - that one vaccine at 8 weeks is not going to cover them.

Heidi January 25th, 2009 09:46:39 PM

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href="منتدىhttp://www.shgawa.net/vb">منتدى</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t5241.html">منتدى عبدالعزيز</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t5241.html">منتدى عبدالعزيز الرسمي</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t5241.html">منتدى الستار عبدالعزيز</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t18523.html">برنامج رار</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t18523.html">برنامج وين رار</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t18523.html">برنامج وين رار عربي</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t18523.html">وين رار</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t18523.html">Win RAR</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t10956.html">برامج 2009</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t17117.html">صور شباب حلوين</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/t17117.html">صور رجال حلوين</a></div><a href="http://www.shgawa.net/vb/f45.html">منتدى كوره</a></div>T

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