"I may not always agree with their conclusions, but I think if there was greater respect for the expertise and moral basis of alternative points of view we might break free from the “agribusiness” versus “humaniac” stuff and make better progress toward outcomes for animals."

Don't think I've ever heard the term "humaniac" before...thanks for that one. And thanks for sharing your "can't we all just get along" viewpoint. It's well-reasoned instead of pollyanna-ish. We need more of this kind of thinking.

And thanks for taking the time to do this interview. Unless more people understand what's really happening on the inside we'll continue to propagate this "us vs. them" mentality. 

Dr. Patty Khuly February 4th, 2009 09:35:06 AM

I have heard "humaniac" more times than I might like, and also the idea that "rights" approaches are invalid (IMHO any philosophy has value if held sincerely, does not cause suffering in others, and has some internal consistency). But I have also met some people in agriculture who are very forward thinking and don't really deserve the "agribusiness" rhetoric suggesting they are only in it for the money--many of them could make more money more easily in other ways. It makes me think of the times my animal welfare research (behavioral, reward based) put me on the vivisectionist hit list. (This was for a study where chickens ran a maze for food treats. They were not food deprived and not killed for any reason other than veterinary euthasia.) Since starting to work with the AVMA I have come to appreciate that those who are dismissive of other points of view are harder to work with, no matter where they fit into the picture. Just as anyone with a genuine regard for animals is someone that can help make progress for their welfare. I would love it if everyone agreed with me, but so long as people are willing to listen to each other with some goodwill I have a lot fo hope for what can be acheived. Sorry If I was a bit wordy, I tend to go on....

emily February 4th, 2009 10:31:42 AM

While my Shiba had surgery, I read an AVMA article on this topic.  Quite illuminating and nice that the Vet Surgeon had the AVMA pubs in the waiting room.  Ag does need more Vets but at least the Ag folks are pretty well informed and organized.  While I realize Vets are certainly better informed, I don't see an organization out there specifically focused on the average household pet and it's owner.  This seems to result in a lack of information on the owner's part which leads to them being unable to communicate well to Vets and/or just plain hiding information from Vets (embarrassment,  ignorance, etc.) and that seems to skew the Vet perspective some.

I'm a pragmatic idealist too.  I'm still looking for a pragmatic organization out there that has it's primary focus on the average household pet and it's owner.  None of those you listed fit that from what I've been able to tell over the years.  Any chance you have one that comes to mind?

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 10:36:09 AM

"I will also admit that I have learned an astounding amount about the stakeholder and players and the way animal welfare issues play out in the United States. To make large scale changes you have to know how to work within these systems." I was just wondering what you oonsider the most important thing you have learned about how animal welfare issues play out..Thanks for the informative interview.

BARB February 4th, 2009 12:10:29 PM

well.i am very like animals.

vantungo February 4th, 2009 12:12:53 PM

Do you think that there might be more large animal/rural/livestock veterinarians if there were more laws, rules or guidelines regarding humane treatment? Could one of the reasons there is such an acute shortage of these vets be because it is difficult for most vets to face the conditions these animals live (and die) in?

Mary Straus February 4th, 2009 12:26:43 PM

Totally OT, did anybody else notice on "What Would You Do?" last night that whether it was a baby or a dog locked in a hot car, few people were willing to get involved and those that did didn't start with "open that door right now" but railed at the driver while the car remained locked with the baby/pet inside?  That not one went for a brick to bust out a window?  Geez, arrests me, sue me, whatever but I'm busting out the window!

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 12:37:17 PM

@ BARB: I think the most important thing I learned it that to make change a person or organisation often has to be very strategic and aware of what everyone else involved is doing--I honestly am amazed how little I knew about what really determines how animals are used (culture, law, politics, policy, branding etc etc etc). For best effect people often need to collaborate across very diverse interest groups, and that only happens in a climate of respect. If a major group (humane, industry etc) walks away from the table the quality and influence of the final outcome is compromised. Of course there is the risk of innertia, I would be the first to admit that and it is the role of other groups to try more radical approachs and end runs around our current norms. But the AVMA falls, over and over, into the realm of a safe, moderate collaborator that can bring people together. And I have not really been here very long--but it has opening my eyes about the different between know what you want and working out how to get that into practice in a national context.

emily February 4th, 2009 12:46:07 PM

@ Mary Straus: It certainly goes both ways. Is it a flaw in a new vet that they avoid a rural job, if they are carrying $100,000 in debt and the rural job pays less than half what the urban one does and is more demanding physically and in time and travel? Certainly not. And if many of those jobs will also involve involvement in procedures they are not ethically comfortable with? But this kind of issue is where the AVMA works hardest and with the least fuss (and I am not a cheerleader for them really, they are not perfect by any means). Top priority issues at the AVMA right now explicitly include getting every vet a reasonable income, diversity in the profession (a big challenge) and getting the whole profession and studentship advocating for animal welfare in a way that really gets through to owners. However, I would not that I often see more evidence of progress on livestock issue (e.g. veal housing, cattle dehorning) than pets (dare I say ear cropping?) There are livestock practices where senior veterinarians are extremely progressive on welfare and have their clients full support. Hopefully these sorts of successes can be reproduced as livestock veterinary practice is revitalised. (There will be a symposium announced soon hosted by ACMA/AACMC specifically on animal welfare in veterinary education/advocacy). Sorry, I am running on here again.

emily February 4th, 2009 12:56:31 PM

Re PETA, HSUS, et al... you said "but at the end of the day all of these groups want to do the right thing when it comes to our treatment of animals."

Do you really believe that?  I know they can sound reasonable at times, but surely you understand that if PETA and HSUS have their way - all the way - there would be no more veterinarians because there would be no more companion or domestic animals?   It probably won't ever come all the way to that, but if unreasonable restrictions continue to be placed on animal ownership there will be precious few people able to keep any animals at all.

And while maybe the radicals within those groups DO believe that this really would be "the right thing" for the animals, the vast majority of us DON'T believe so.  Nor - if we could ask them - do I believe the animals would agree!  Compared to conditions in the wild, most domestic animals have it pretty darn good.

Barb February 4th, 2009 01:14:30 PM

Based on my discussion with many their staff, all of those staff really do have good intentions in my opinion. But I would also say that so long as these groups are major players we need to be in courteous communication with them regardless. If we walk away they will still come up with initiatives and actions with pretty broad consequences. I would also say that my own motives get questioned on a pretty regular basis, from both end of the spectrum, often on the same issue--so I try not to make assumptions about what people think or intend even if they seem really obvious (who actually wants to hurt animals or let them be hurt? The disagreements are rarely at that level). And in the end working with a group to improve the chances of success for a project that will help animals doesn't mean endorsement of the organisation on a whole.

emily February 4th, 2009 01:31:50 PM

p.s. I probably missed your main point. Some groups clearly believe in the abolition of some, even most or all, animal uses. But I am not all that afraid of this as a slippery slope. The vast majority of people want domesticated animals in their life in some form, and I firmly believe they always will--or at least so long as the psychology of the human species remains substantially like it is today. But even the great majority of abolition groups also believe that it is good to replace more cruel uses with less cruel uses--that is our area of goal overlap. And if you front up to someone with an initiative that both HSUS and AVMA have signed onto, that has to be taken seriously as not just being a "special interest" agenda.

emily February 4th, 2009 01:37:30 PM

Good points Emily, thanks for your response!  Thank you also for all the work you do - while I will continue to be deeply suspicious of PETA and HSUS, I also believe that so much more can be done to improve the comfort and welfare of all domestic animals, whether they live in a home, on a farm or in a labratory.

Barb February 4th, 2009 03:01:40 PM

There are just a couple of phrases in here that had me suppressing loud, cynical laughter, most of all: "Of course all of the members are committed, via the Principles of Veterinary Medical Ethics . . . ."

LOL. So many vets entirely discount the principles of veterinary medical ethics, and MORE DISAPPOINTINGLY: State vet boards entirely ignore violations of that code of ethics (WITH the notable and laudable exception of the Idaho State vet board, which ironically, has impressed me several years running and is the only one that does.)

If upholding the Principles of Ethics were a requirement for membership, the AVMA would need to cull its roles by a large percentage, starting with vet board officers.

Stefani February 4th, 2009 03:20:58 PM

Mary, re: "Do you think that there might be more large animal/rural/livestock veterinarians if there were more laws, rules or guidelines regarding humane treatment?"

Wow, I love your question. Maybe if the AVMA got into the business of PROMOTING humane farming practices -- really evolved humane farming practices, not what passes for it -- instead of participating in circuitous, disengenuous rationalizations of horrific treatment which they pronounce "humane" though any logical person can see that it's not -- maybe, just maybe, those humane practices would be adopted faster and therefore more people could farm with a cleaner conscience.

Stefani February 4th, 2009 03:24:52 PM

"I think the most important thing I learned it that to make change a person or organisation often has to be very strategic and aware of what everyone else involved is doing--I honestly am amazed how little I knew about what really determines how animals are used (culture, law, politics, policy, branding etc etc etc). For best effect people often need to collaborate across very diverse interest groups, and that only happens in a climate of respect." Thanks for the answer. There really are a lot of groups that get slammed when they actually do raise people's awareness of humane issues and make them think about it . I also realize there are a few Barb and Barbara posting here, popular name on the site, so I will change my name a little. Thanks again for the good work. Like you said most people want things changed for the better.

Barb L February 4th, 2009 03:26:24 PM

Emily: If AVMA recognizes the human-animal bond, why do they OBJECT that animals' status be changed from "mere property" to a higher status, such as Attoney Carolyn B.Matlack and other distinguished animal law attorneys suggest to "sentient property"?

Would the change of the law regarding animal status would bring about veterinarian accountability for unacceptable conduct?

"We've Got Feelings Too!"--an excellent book for guardians and veterinarians alike!

Asproolee's Story

Fotini February 4th, 2009 03:46:39 PM

Stefani, I understand the frustration in that the AVMA is engaged with groups that are part of a status quo many people find unacceptable. But when the AVMA does move they move more than just themselves--they bring a big middle group along. Does this mean the AVMA lags behing the leading group in many areas, I would say that is often (but perhaps necessarily) the case. It is a membership organisation as well as one based on principles and ideals. But the positions taken are agonised over very carefully by the veterinarians that form them with the goal of maximising actual benefit for the animals involved (amongst other things). That said there are other more maneuverable and ideological uniform groups that move firmly to the forefront of specific issues, and alliances between the two approaches have the potential to move people by convincing rather than co-ercing. My experience with swine and with people leads me to feel that large opinioned animals are easier to move if you show them the way and make it worth their while, rather than push as hard as you can... But to the extent that the AVMA is part of the picture, and I am a small part of the AVMA, animal welfare is ultimately the only goal on my mind.

emily February 4th, 2009 03:54:54 PM

Mostly I'm trying to squelch my cynical side today but, like Stefani, I'm smothering some cynical laughter.

Stefani, "more people could farm with a cleaner conscience".  I doubt it.  If their conscience were REALLY bothering them, they would change their own practices.  (I say as I sit here debating whether or not to sign the farming lease for GMOs on my land again this year.  It's that or take it out of production since I can't keep the neighbor's GMOs and chemicals off my land.  Changing the law really doesn't help when the big Agribusinesses just do what they want regardless of the law and others either to the same to stay competitive or shut down their operations.)

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 04:03:21 PM

Fontini, this is a subject that is very much discussed. I will clarify that as staff I provide information--the policies always come from members. But the thinking is roughly this: that awarding non-economic damages would ultimately reduce rather than increase care--and being removed from 'property' status removes the protection of most existing animals welfare laws. I can go further into that if it is of interest. But this is the "ends" motivated thinking the AVMA follows. We know a dog is not like a stereo. But if "guardian" status would cause suffering to dogs then it should not be pursued (if this prediction is shown to be fallacious, that position would change). The AVMA is pursuing the idea of sentient property categories but as that is in the works I won't go into the details. But basicallythere is certainly thought being given to categories that would allow, but somewhat limit, non-economic damages and retain by expand property classifications. Categories roughly of this type do exist as models, for example heirloom property is accepted as having emotional worth, the sentient property might eventually end in that category. But if a position seems very stupid or very cruel--the odds are there is more to it. the AVMA may move slowly somtimes but I can assure you that a lot of thought is being given to what the next move might be.

emily February 4th, 2009 04:05:06 PM

My main learning event here at the AVMA is that no matter how weird a persons behavior is they will be acting based on "doing the right thing" as they see it. To change the behaviors you can either change their minds, or use force. As an operant psychologist I never used aversives on my rats, pigs or hens. So it is my instinct to take the approach of understanding and reward with people too. Sure, that is a matter of temperament and priority, it is almost always slower at least to begin with. But I think the results at the end will be worth it. Of course other people don't feel they can be patient any longer. I understand that too--there are things I would change overnight were it under my direct control. In either case I think the answer is to try and find something that actually works to make life better for the animals. I know that if I was training an animal and became frustrated I needed to step back and work out what I was doing wrong. The pig is only ever going to do what pigs do, and if I want it to do something else that will be down to me finding a way to motivate it to do otherwise. (As Skinner said "the pigeon is always right". If the pigeon does something I don't want there isn't much point yelling at it and deciding it is a stupid pigeon).

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 04:12:55 PM

Emily, I'm rather fond of a different example.  Once a person dies, their body is simply "property" and the law easily designates who is responsible for tending it and holds mortuaries to a higher standard than the mere propery value, if they do something stupid (like drop it on someone's doorstep for failure to pay for the cremation), they can be held for additional emotional damages.  There's no reason a beloved pet can't have that same type of protection whether designated as property or by some other name.  I do find it disturbing that livestock (because they have economic value) are treated by the law and courts as more valuable than a pet, into whom an owner may well have put as much money and/or even more time than their livestock equivalent.

Hope everyone forgives my typos for a while, new glasses with a big script change...

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 04:14:05 PM

I'm NO kind of techie so don't know if the message time stamped 04:12:55 is showing up to all as attributed to me or if that's just on my screen.  Emily, are you attempting to channel me?  I've been told that can be hazardous to one's sanity.  :)

PJBoosinger February 4th, 2009 04:21:45 PM

Yes, the law does provide this an other examples of "special" property. As a purely personal opinion I think the answer lies there somewhere. The AVMA committee most involved in this subject would probably be the Committee on the Human Animal Bond who take action via the Executive Board if people would like to submit information and suggestions for their attention--especially, but certainly not limited to, AVMA members. There is so much going on that moving an issue involves showing it is a priority. Requests can also be presented to the House of Delegate by way of a petition of 50 or more members. The AVMA is a mechanism in its own right but can be amazingly responsive if people understand how the gears mesh together.

emily February 4th, 2009 04:24:22 PM

Spooky. I see that too. Hopefully people will see that it is me typing the comment starting "My main learning event here at the AVMA..."

emily February 4th, 2009 04:25:53 PM

Emily, You have taken on a difficult job and I wish you much success! And thank you for the courage to do this interview.

I see the AVMA and HSUS & Peta as having a few things in "common". Namely, addressing animal welfare issues that do not have a "personal face or name". Though not in agreement with many of the agricultural issues, it seems 'easier' to illustrate enmass, just as with ear cropping & puppy mills.

However, every time I see a "save the whale banner", I too, can not help but be cynical with sad laughter, to various animal welfare groups, when so much companion animal abuse is under all of our noses, not only without a public outcry, but secrecy and protection added.This makes the abuse 10-fold.

I must know the AVMA veterinary ethics by heart, and they cover just about everything needed to be upheld. Unfortunately, it isn't, to make a mockery of an association.

Companion animals come attached to "people". It is a misnomer to claim that accountability either through existing governmental authority AND/OR legal channels would raise the price of medicine. But it sure would cause a "damper" on revenues taken in, by what should already be expected/standard practice.

Thank you again, Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire

Pocket's Story from NH February 4th, 2009 04:36:17 PM

First, let me say, what an interesting interview, thanks soooo much for sharing this with all of us, its so good to hear this stuff.

Secondly- Wow, a very informative blog, you really write a lot, we are impressed. Really informative and entertaining too, thanks!!i love the pictures too ... great stuff. Keep them coming!

We have a brand new forum about pets going to the vets, would you be able to mention it to your avid fanbase, that would make us more than happy! Its only just opened so its a bit empty, come post some comments. I hope you like the idea- enabling communication between pets and vets.

its www.petdoctorforum.com and its a pet health community for pets + their vets together..

anyway.. I look forward to seeing more of your blog posts, keep them coming here!!!

petdoctorforum February 4th, 2009 06:29:04 PM

Emily: Thanks for replying to my comment.

Your quote "But the thinking is roughly this: that awarding non-economic damages would ultimately reduce rather than increase care--and being removed from 'property' status removes the protection of most existing animals welfare laws."

I believe this is AVMA's reasoning, not guardians' beliefs--I can assure you of that!

"But if "guardian" status would cause suffering to dogs then it should not be pursued (if this prediction is shown to be fallacious, that position would change)." I will not call an owner "guardian" if he/she causes suffering to their companion. The majority of us the "guardians" and veterinary consumers on whom vets owe their wealth will not cause any suffering to our companions. On the contrary we pay for their health and well-being amounts equal to what we pay our medical doctors and at times even more! On the other hand, there are existing laws who hold accountable animal abusers whoever they might be!

What veterinary consumers lack is veterinary accountability for veterinarians'negligence or malpractice. If veterinarians cause suffering and even death on a geriatric companion, the value of that geriatric patient is NIL! How would the grieving guardian be rewarded for his/her companion's avoidable death since the companion's market value is ZERO at the time of their passing? This is where the "non-economic damages" would most definitely apply.

Fotini February 4th, 2009 07:05:14 PM

Dr. Kane - thanks very much for your willingness to discuss this emerging focus for AVMA.  I do have a burning question which hasn't let me be since I first read an AVMA response to the fois gras issue (which has subsequently been used to support uncertainty about other welfare concerns in ag practices).  AVMA representatives opined, after visiting a duck farm where fois gras was produced, that policy decisions should be evidence based.  Because they couldn't definitively say that force feeding was painful, or cruel, or whatever.

Just a year later, AVMA has finally delivered the statement that cosmetic ear cropping and tail docking is not recommended and it was a proud day for me to read of it.  But where is the evidence that tail docking and ear cropping cause pain and distress?

It is well recognized by anesthesiologists and behaviorists that veterinarians AND pet owners/stockers etc are ill-equipped to recognize pain and to some extent, distress, in animals. I'm wondering about the decision that there is a difference in a one time surgical procedure and repeated forceful tube feeding - what is the relative evidence base supporting the decision to stop one and let the other continue?

And what about the common sense solution proposed in some of the medical literature focusing on evidence-based medicine, that some things don't need studies?  For instance, we are pretty sure that the unproven treatment for traumatic hemorrhage (i.e. staunching blood flow with pressure bandages, etc) has universal consensus and is highly recommended.  But there are no studies to prove it.  And the use of  parachutes is PROBABLY a good idea if you jump from a plane, but that hasn't been studied.  Oh wait - yes it has, but did we really need to?

Sorry to ramble, but my concern is that this policy on evidence-based decisions about ethical issues gives the association (and by inference, the profession) another 10-20 years of wiggle room.  And in the meantime, our policy decisions appear inconsistent, if not capricious if you are on the other side of the issue. I'm not sure we have that kind of 'political capital to spend'.  I am a proud AVMA member and I sense you are politically savvy staffer who is on the side  of the animals, but I'd love to know how AVMA can support this inconsistent application fo evidence-based medicine.  Comments?

Susan G. Wynn, DVM

Dr. Susan Wynn February 4th, 2009 08:14:33 PM

Emily, first of all, I am going to apologize in advance for making you the recipient of expressions of frustrations and exasperation. If your skin is as thick as Dr. K's, you'll do fine. But, I do apologize in advance.

Now, onto the drubbing:

Re:"that awarding non-economic damages would ultimately reduce rather than increase care--and "

Yes, that's the position. Its a TOTALLY disingenuous one that has been COMPLETELY debunked -- both by looking at the human medicine model, AND by specific analysis of the veterinary scenario. It is an argument that is COMPLETE bull excrement (no insult to bulls or their valuable excrement intended) -- a ludicrous assertion that is repeated to the naiive over and over, who take it on its face, though it is NOT SUBSTANTIATED WITH ONE FACTUAL EXAMPLE. It's not only a total hypothetical, but it's illogical and even AVMA-PLIT's (insurance) own analysis give the lie to this tired old misleading canard. Talk about cynical!

I heard Peter Glassman DVM the millionaire speak against allowing LIMITED non-economic damages in DC (where a cap of $2,500 was proposed for deaths due to negligence, and a cap of $7,000 for deliberate killing). Glassman got out that old violin and sang the song of the poor client: Their bills will go up. Then all the vets will leave DC. booo hooo. We are just trying to protect our clients to make sure vet care's not too expensive! His side won the day of course -- they always do. He was there with that awful Kent McClure.

Evil lords of the underworld that they are, I knew they didn't believe their own words. Lo and Behold, I found Glassman's blog, where he BRAGS about getting away with HUGE markups on RX drugs, calling it the "gravy train" that "we vets" have "enjoyed."

Concerned about passing on costs to the client? Who are you kidding? What a lie!

Please read Christopher Green's outstanding paper, (http://www.animallaw.info/journals/jo_pdf/vol10_p163.pdf) in which he shows that allowing limited (capped) non-economic damages -- if it resulted in a DOUBLING of vet liability insurance costs -- would still only result in an average cost increase to the client of 13 cents per year. Little wonder, since vets typically pay only $300-$500 for a $1 million policy as it is.

Yet they stand up in city council and fight a law that would allow an owner to recover $7,000 -- no more -- if it is PROVEN IN A COURT OF LAW that the vet, oh, got pissed off and body slammed a dog into the floot repeatedly until he died?

Gee, I always thought that kind of behavior was rare -- you know, a few complete wackos in the profession peppered around the country. But Glassman seems real concerned about how such a law would affect him. What does he know about his vets that I don't know? What do you ALL know that we don't know?

As you can tell, some of us are mad as hell. And we aren't taking it anymore. Stefani The Toonces Project

Stefani February 4th, 2009 09:00:55 PM

Correction: The caps proposed in the DC legislation were $2,000 for death caused by negligence (proven in a court of law) and $7,500 for deliberate killing (not euthanasia, of course). Stefani The Toonces Project

Stefani February 4th, 2009 09:12:07 PM

Emily, AVMA is indeed seen by many pet people (guardians, owners, semantics don't really matter) as an impediment to progress on the road to vet accountability, which is lacking to the point of existing system of oversight seeming more like a farce than a legitimate system. AVMA acts to protect the interests (primarily the profits) of the vet and the vet only! It does not have the reputation of acting in the interest of our companion animals or us, their owners. I recently sent a letter to the Judicial Committe at the AVMA asking them to add specific language that would require a vet to render truthful and objective professional testimony in cases of a suspected negligence. What precipitated this letter was my friend's devastating experience with a cat who died at the ER as a result of errors committed by her regular vet. The ER vet told her he "would not get involved," would not write a report on the cause of death, and would not perform a necropcy. Instead my friend was advised to take her dead cat, put him in the kitchen freezer and find someone willing "to get involved." In the letter I sent to the Judical Committee I asked why there was no specific language concerning these types of situations, and why there is no specific language on being honest regarding medical mistakes. I was advised (eight months after the date of the letter) that the Judicial Council felt there was no need for any changes, and that the Code of Ethics already covered the point about the obligation to be honest; the letter advised me that if I was aware of dishonest behavior I could file a complaint. I then sent a complaint describing dishonest behavior of my former vet (who claimed that congestive heart failure was missed on my cat's X-ray because this disease is not visible on an X-ray!!!!) and received a reply (within a week!) saying that I didn't name any violations in the Code of Ethics! And you would argue that AVMA strives to be objective? It's a mockery of objectivity!

Natalie Kramer February 4th, 2009 10:51:37 PM

Natalie K: Along the lines of a mockery of objectivity, wanna read something that will make your head pop off?

I was reading Texas Vet Board disciplinary records last night (I use the term "disciplinary" quite loosely).

There is a case where in my opinion, anyone with a HALF functioning brain would conclude that the vet or vets' staff must have perforated the cat's trachea. Cat was not experiencing difficulty breathing, the vet inserted a feeding tube, and immediately thereafter the cat immediately was having trouble breathing.

The ensuing story is heartbreaking as the cats suffering is evident. The cat was euthanized.

Seemingly after the complaint was filed (nearly 2 years later!), the offending vet paid his own expert to review the xrays taken of the cat. The original opinion of his expert was that "the radiographic findings were compatible with a diagnosis of pneumothorax secondary to perforation of the esophagus and/or trachea."

I guess that interpretation wasn't sufficient enough for the offending vet. He had his expert revise his opinion: The expert sent a revised opinion saying basically that the puncture must have occurred before the vet ever saw the cat.

Outrageous!!!!! Not credible!

Of course, the vet board had all the excuse they needed NOT to find that the vets actions contributed to the death of the cat. But DO THEY REALLY Believe it? I think not!

NO ethics. No accountability..

Read it. It will break your heart.

http://texasveterinaryrecords.110mb.com/Jarrett%202008-82.pdf

Stefani February 5th, 2009 12:00:29 AM

Fotini, Stefani, Barbara (and crew), the laws to accomplish much of what you want actually do exist.  The public doesn't understand how to use them and, sadly, neither do most attorneys.  However, if you show an attorney where to find the money for them in the deal (lead the horse to water), it will drink.  Attorneys tend to be staid and stuffy in their thinking, the creative ones are few and far between so it's likely some group of interested people will have to do the foundation work and research for them.  Somebody point me to an organization that's focused on the average pet owner so I can help do that or I think I'm close to starting one of my own, see if there are enough owners out there who care enough to...

PJBoosinger February 5th, 2009 01:21:34 AM

PJ Boosinger, Interested in finding an organization focused on an average pet owner? E-mail me at muttlover1@verizon.net. I'll give you a good reference. Thank you for the suggestion.

Natalie Kramer February 5th, 2009 01:11:57 PM

PJBoosinger:

Please address any questions/comments/suggestions to al-vetwatch@hotmail.com

Fotini February 5th, 2009 02:22:15 PM

Dr. Wynn: How eloquent! I'm sure Emily will be back to address your question/comment. And while she's at it, I was also wondering whether the issue of non-economic damages was on the "welfare desk." It's my sense that it is not. Just wondering...

Dr. Patty Khuly February 5th, 2009 03:33:51 PM

Emily, Without becoming too windy on the veterinary abuse/negligence/fraud subject involving companion animals, I tried to think of a way to thoughtfully convey without anger how this does impact human pet-owners.

Having a background/degree in psychology perhaps puts you in an empathetic position of understanding the balance between animal welfare and the psychological effect of witnessing & re-living egregious conduct displayed by "professionals".

To say that it harms the pet, is fact. The pet-owner lives with the constant life-long guilt and sadness knowing that they did not "protect" their pet, irregardless that they were not capable at the time.

What is not considered, is the multiplying effect to the human family members & friends. This too causes harm in the form of: profound sadness, anger, fear, and helplessness. It isn't nice by anyone's standards.

Take for example: Relaying to your elderly parents, that your reason for not functioning well, is because you have endured over a week witnessing your 11 1/2 year old dog in a cage, courteously suggesting her life "is over", then when it is finally acknowledged you witness a NH licensed veterinarian exterminate her life in a hideously cruel manner. What do those elderly parents try to process? What laws , what protections in place, how does this translate to their care? Think about it.

It is not just ONE pet, ONE person. Barbara A. Albright/ forever for my "Pocket"

Pocket's Story from NH February 5th, 2009 11:05:57 PM

Hi Susan, Foie Gras remains an issue within the AVMA although currently we have no policy on it, there is a scientific backgrounder posted on the website. There are a lot of reasons, both deliberate and accidental, for policies not lining up perfectly. For example the earcropping and tail docking policy is not based primarily on pain, but on whether the procedure is necessary. In cases where a surgical procedure is cosmetic and has no functional purpose it may not be considered justifiable even if not very painful. Also, policies range in age up to five years when they are routinely reviewed. There is a desire to use science when it is available and not completely ambiguous, but other factors such as practicalities and member/public ethics also come into play. Certainly there are issue where research just doesn't exist and that does not bring the process to a halt.

emily February 6th, 2009 12:21:55 AM

Hi Stefani As I recall, and this is not an area I have worked directly on, there was doubt that capped damages are actually able to be inacted. Property status is a very fundamental quality in the law and that is the kind of outcome required but when in contrast with underlying legal principles it might not stand. But again, I would have to do some research to be sure of my specifucs on this issue--and currently I am supporting an active committee meeting (hence being offline most of today).

emily February 6th, 2009 12:25:41 AM

Hi Natalie I do not think the AVMA is impartial in the sense that a court or the police force should be. We are the association of America's veterinarians. However, part of that role should be to pursue the best interest of animals. If you have not had your complaint meaningfully dealt with I would suggest calling up your state VMA for advice. They should be able to tell you which violations to cite and how to make sure your complaint is processed fully. I do not know what the result would be and am not in a good position to comment, but at least it would be a firmer result. There is some (okay, a lot) of bureaucracy involved which can be a problem, and just at a time when the owner is not best equipped to deal with it. But if you retain as much evidence and documentation as possible it can still be pursued. State boards have shown a willingness to remove licenses from veterinarians for mistreatment of animals.

emily February 6th, 2009 12:35:34 AM

I hope I didn't miss anything--please bring it up again if I did. I am taking note of the points about owners dealing with questionable veterinary behavior and need for reliable advise on what to do in these situations. Almost all of my work has been more on the issue of what kinds of things we should/should not do to entire classes of animals--rather than experiences of specific owners. However when we fill our open position in the Animal Welfare Division (specifically dealing with companion animal issues) I will be sure to direct them to this thread. Hopefully over the next months and years the AVMA will give you all more reason for optimism. In any case I hope that when you have problems you will contact the state and national VMAs--if in doubt just call someone whose name you know (like me) then they can try and connect you to the people or resources you need. No organisation, especially a large one, is free from limitations but there are staff want to make a real different for animals--even when that seems so much harder to do than it should be. And thanks to Dr. Khuly for inviting me in for the day.

emily February 6th, 2009 12:50:28 AM

I know that there were several cases last year relating to improper euthanasia and/or insufficient analgesia. It is considered a very drastic step to take and I would not argue it is common, as there are other penalties that can be applied. I am certainly not qualified to comment on specific cases given my lack of qualifications in either veterinary medicine or law. However, regardless of the outcome it is in the interest of VMAs to ensure that the owner, as best representative of the companion animal, gets a full and fair hearing. I know it can be hard for owners to know how to find and engage with complaints processes, and even criticism and potential reform of those processes. But I am not sure what role the AVMA will have in trying to improve this, it is currently a bit outside my role. I know that I have passed on calls on this topic to the best people to help out within the VMA structures. However I suspect an owner in an unresolved situation would probably benefit from advice independent from the veterinary institutions/profession. There are a lot of animal law schools across the US now who might offer pro bon assistance, and perhaps humane groups--but those are just my own rather under-informed initial suggestions. I cannot pretend to be well positioned to advise anyone on this particular subject. State VMAs tend to deal with specific practitioners and the AVMA to give an overarching guidance on what is and is not acceptable.

emily February 6th, 2009 01:23:13 AM

emily: Thanks again for taking on the sheep and the wolves in this discussion. I know I don't offer an easy crowd. ;-) Your perspective has been enlightening and your honesty refreshing. I think I can speak for all of us here when I say that having people like you at the AVMA makes me feel that our professional organization is headed in the right direction.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 6th, 2009 08:04:47 AM

Emily, thank you for responding to my comment. Your statement "I do not think the AVMA is impartial in the sense that a court or the police force should be" is interesting. WHY WOULDN'T AVMA WANT TO BE IMPARTIAL? Doesn't AVMA want what's best for the animals, the reputation of its members, and for the public? If a member is alleged to have engaged in a less then desirable conduct, wouldn't AVMA want to be impartial? Wouldn't it want to do all that's possible to deal with inappropriate conduct of its members? Or does it see its role as covering up for its members? Do any of the AVMA members have pets? HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE THEM HARMED AND HAVE NO RECOURSE? AVMA is not impartial the way a court or police should be. WHO IS THEN IMPATIAL FOR OUR PETS' AND OUR SAKE? The answer is no one, and that's exactly the way AVMA wants it to be! Contacting the state VMA's? What a joke! I have. They told me they have no authority but would be willing to "file" my letter in the drawer. Hope they dust it regularly.

Natalie Kramer February 6th, 2009 10:56:45 AM

Natalie: With all due respect, the AVMA is not a body that represents your interests. It represents veterinarians' interests. It's not that it doesn't care, it's just that the AVMA's role has nothing to do with individual legal/ethical disputes.

The Boards of Veterinary Medicine for individual states are the avenue for ethical/legal complaints against veterinarians. Contacting local VMA's, however, helps in that 1) it's another paper trail and 2) local colleagues get to see who might be cause for concern. But there's nothing we can officially do about a specific case. We can speak to our colleague about the case, but this has nothing to do with our official role. 

Please understand that veterinarians are not in the business of harming animals and that attacking those of us in the industry who are working hard to take your concerns seriously is perhaps a little counterproductive. 

Dr. Patty Khuly February 6th, 2009 12:25:57 PM

I realize that those of us who've had bad experiences can get pretty exorcised here, but I don't think that either Natalie, or me, or others, intend to "attack" Emily or you, Dr. K, although it is sometimes construed that way. What you hear is incredible frustration at the fact that although we believe your hearts may be in the right place -- we want you to actively FIGHT with us against the lack of accountability and fix the problem. When we go "ALL CAPS" we are expressing our outrage, grief, and frustration at the way things are -- not attacking. Why are we this upset? As Natalie said, as it is today, there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY -- at least not meaningful accountability. Yes, the vet boards are the avenue, and I've read thousands of vet board docs now, and the "discipline" (which can't rightly be called that) is an insult to the dead/injured animals and those who love them.

Tell us how we can work together to make change -- but please don't tell us to wait, wait, wait for you guys to do it at a glacial pace.

I truly believe, and I suspect you do too, that it's not in the veterinary professions' best interest for things to stay the way they are.

I spend thousands on vet care a year, I'm not trying to take down vets. But something's got to be done about the rampant malpractice and lack of subsequent recourse, for EVERYONE's sake.

Stefani February 6th, 2009 12:39:22 PM

Dr. Khuly, with all due respect, the AVMA SHOULD represent my interests. There is nothing inherently oppositional in the interests of the vets and their clients. The fact that you don't see it illustrates the problem. The vets SHOULD want to ensure the best service possible to their clients, which is what the client wants too. Why would our interests be in opposition? Your statement, and please correct me if I am wrong, seems to suggest that you find it legitimate that AVMA should be interested in preserving the state of affairs in which there is no accountability to the public and their paying clients. This is difficult to believe! Is AVMA used by its members as a body that helps them cover up their mistakes? What would be wrong with AVMA being OBJECTIVE? With it being interested in representing the interests of the TRUTH? Of the animals harmed by its members when it indeed happens? No one would suggest these members should be wrongly accused or not given an impartial hearing. But covering up for them? Why?

Natalie Kramer February 6th, 2009 12:57:49 PM

Dr. Khuly, one afterthought: what does "representing the interests" mean? Helping avoid responsibility for harming our pets? Helping to get away with blatant lying regarding harming our pets? To my knowledge, you are not being accused of being "in the business of harming" our pets. You are being accused of NOT being in the business of owning up to it when it happens! PS When I say you, I don't mean you personally. I mean the system, made up primarily of vets.

Natalie Kramer February 6th, 2009 04:15:37 PM

Emily:"I know that there were several cases last year relating to improper euthanasia and/or insufficient analgesia. It is considered a very drastic step to take and I would not argue it is common, as there are other penalties that can be applied. I am certainly not qualified to comment on specific cases given my lack of qualifications in either veterinary medicine or law."

"However, regardless of the outcome it is in the interest of VMAs to ensure that the owner, as best representative of the companion animal, gets a full and fair hearing"

Emily: We may appear to be a tough bunch, but it is because we are a VOCAL bunch, growing in numbers.

On your second quote, I sure hope you were not referring to "me or MY pet" or the many companion animals that have had the same cruel method of death applied before me.

What full and fair hearing? When the "Vet-investigator-VP" is buds with the perpetrators, and several of the other board members have OPEN pending complaints against them/clinics....how on earth is THAT going to happen? When the state of NH also has improprietary interest, how on earth is the owner going to be treated fairly?

And once more, let's address the legal status and lack of financial payoff for attorney's.......ummm, NO interest ====ZERO dollars. Pro bono, you say??? Where is THAT to be had?

Isolated case, you think? Not when it is KNOWN in the vet community, including surrounding states! Shameful, shameful, that the AVMA, whether regional or national shrugs & shirks that kind of responsibility.

Am I bashing all vets? Absolutely NOT! And I would venture to say that INHUMANE method of bringing voluntary death is NOT common. It should never exist at ALL, EVER! And I say shame on every single professional that has allowed it to go on, including knowledge garnered from advertisements in professional magazines that clearly intimated "non-drug status".

All in all, I think you will work hard to address these issues, and I look forward to internal change! Barbara Albright/NH/ Pocket's owner

Pocket's Story from NH February 6th, 2009 07:45:25 PM

The code of Ethics was written to cover the veterinarian"s A--. Tell me where the veterinarians get their training on how to lie and cover up any and all mistakes? I have always wondered. Answer me why vets get away with their mistakes, because most of the Associations are self goverened. Also answer why any veterinarian would inject a drug intended for a bull into a 22 pound dog??????????????? That dog died he was found to be healthy on a necropsy. No informed consent was given to use a drug off label as he did. Let me tell you that we are on to what is being done and the way it is being done, so you better shape up your cozy practices or be prepared to be exposed for what you are. What course do veterinarians take is it called Take as much money as you can and do MUCH HARM as possible???

Patricia Deeds February 6th, 2009 08:13:17 PM

Just remember that we the clients are the ones keeping the veterinarians in business and the more people experience problems the more bad reports come about the more advertising they will recieve. Until YOU have walked in our shoes, by that I mean experience a tragity or neglance of a veterinarian with your beloved pet then you can't know what it does to one. Try TRAUMATIZED!!! And by the way any name calling it takes one to know one just remember. The TRUTH USUALLY HURTS!!!

Patricia Deeds February 8th, 2009 05:23:43 PM

For pro bono support my thought was that one of the 90 or so animal law programs might offer this type of service--I personally have used law school clinics when in need of legal advice and on a very low income. I will see if I can find some time to research this issue. I would note that there are other avenues to investigate such as a complaint to the state's Better Business Bureau. However issues with a particular veterinarian do occur at the state level and it is not something in which I am professionally involved.

emily February 9th, 2009 09:07:14 AM

I'm disgusted by all the fuss you kooks make over mere animals. You act as if lower species beasts are as important as people. You think your dumb-ass pets are the most important lifeforms on the planet, FAR more important than any starving child in Darfur ever could be. You'd rather fork over thousands of dollars for a kidney transplant for a stupid mutt, than help pay for surgery to repair a cleft lip on a child in Africa.

Compared to REAL doctors, veterinarians are a farce. Veterinarians waste their time on clueless animals. Pets are black holes. Moochers who see their owners as walking can openers.

Toby February 9th, 2009 08:22:43 PM

Also, I DEPISE that Ghandi quote. Judging  a nation by the way it treats animals. Well, America kills millions of cows, pigs, and chickens each week for burgers, deli meat and pet food. I guess America is a barbaric country, huh?  PEOPLE are more important than any mere animal, GOT IT?? 

Go figure, abortion is legal, but declawing a cat is a crime in some states.

Toby February 9th, 2009 08:27:05 PM

(my advice: don't feed the trolls)

emily February 10th, 2009 09:13:30 AM

Hey Toby I will take the bait. I feel sorry for folks such as you that do not or have not experienced how much pets enhance our lives every day. Your comments remind me of those that are not able to appreciate great art or music.

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