Vet Stress An open letter to Dolittler readers...

Dear Readers:

I have been writing daily posts on Dolittler for three-plus years. I stay awake late every night researching new topics and I wake up early every morning to click them into my computer. I know you value this because about 2,000 of you keep coming back day after day to see what’s new.

I write 500 to 1,000 words on Dolittler every single day (mostly without fail) while holding down a full time job as a busy veterinarian and the sole parent of an eleven year-old. I stay active in my veterinary community by serving on the board of my local VMA, providing free services to the pets of the homeless, participating in free spay/neuter days whenever they’re offered...

...all while keeping abreast of new developments in medicine, reading my journals religiously and even working on my own research projects. This Monday, for example, I’ll be lecturing at a local law school on the subject of animal law from a veterinarian’s point of view. And I still have time to take calls late at night, visit my patients after surgery at the specialty hospital on my day off, write columns for several publications and prepare for my son’s birthday party later today.

I don’t issue these statements to talk myself up or to guilt you into always seeing things from the point of view of a model veterinarian (indeed I am not), but I do hope to impress upon you that a great many veterinarians all over the world do far more than I do...ultimately by way of serving the interests of the animals we advocate for on a daily basis and not for our own personal gain.

Why then, I wonder, am I not able to convey this message in a convincing fashion through my daily posts on Dolittler?

I've had cause to contemplate this failing of mine after moderating many a post where I read comment after comment decrying the lack of fairness in veterinary medicine, touting the horrific exploits of poor providers of veterinary services, and turning most every post into an opportunity to rail against my profession and its limitations, its low-quality providers and its occasional cruelties committed in the name of alleviating animal suffering.

I get it. I’ve been the aggrieved party in my dealings with a wide variety of mediocre professionals. I’ve had opportunity to showcase my own moral outrage against veterinarians and other professionals. I’ve even testified for the prosecution in a malpractice deposition. In short, I am not the enemy. Nor are the vast majority of veterinarians and veterinary team members.

On Dolittler I’ve remained positive when faced with these anti-veterinary establishment points of view. I’ve invited those who hold them into the fold, despite the protests of many (veterinarians and non-vets, alike) who believe I offer too free a rein to those who continue to “hijack” threads and take any available opportunity to make negative comments.

Clearly I value your comments. I think you hold a valid point of view. When faced with another email questioning my ecumenical stance, I defend your right to have your say. I believe it adds depth and richness to the realities of veterinary medicine I have committed to explore here on Dolittler.

Yet when I can’t even discuss ear mites without receiving a sour comment or two on bad bad vets, I have cause to rethink this position.

Sure, I could delete every comment that does not mesh with the standard veterinary worldview. But I’ve never done so. I’ve been more than fair. I’ve lost sponsorship opportunities and many readers because I refuse to censor any of your comments.

So here’s where I’m asking, in my characteristically plain-spoken manner, to take this post to hash out the issue of veterinary malfeasance...and then leave it alone until a post specifically relates to this issue. Trust me, I’ll offer plenty of future opportunities for you to have your say. I’ll even write at least a post every couple of weeks in which you can run with your important message. Email me if I don’t.

What I’m saying is that Dolittler is a place you can always call home. But please recognize that while Dolittler may seem like an ideal place to speak your mind on these issues, doing so with extreme regularity makes it less homey for others. And I don’t believe that Dolittler deserves to be treated so commonly as a platform for one specific issue when so many others deserve attention.

Thanks for understanding and helping me out. I just want what’s best for everyone. Isn’t that only fair to those of us who DO work hard to make animal lives better?

Dr. Patty Khuly

February 7th, 2009

Add Comment183 Comments

I hear you, Dr. Khuly, and I stand behind you. And I love this blog. I can't tell you how often I forward your posts to people who are dealing with related issues. I know bloggers who have had to go to moderated comments. If it becomes necessary, you won't be the first.

Susan R February 7th, 2009 09:34:44 AM

Dr. Khuly or her partners in Miami have taken care of my pets and the pets of several friends for years. We all have stories to tell of sincere, conscientious, intelligent care that we have received at that clinic.

Frankly, I can recall one incident in all my visits to vets in this community that I could rate as a really bad experience. And that was a handler issue.

Having a pet takes time. And it can be very expensive to provide care. Times are tough for everyone. Free information on-line sites like this is incredibly valuable. May I also suggest that PUBLIC LIBRARIES have a wealth of free information about pet care.

Thank you Dr. Khuly and your colleagues for all the good work that you do in the office and on blogs. Also thank you for the many, many above-and-beyonds such as opening up after hours to get medicine for a sick cat in the aftermath of a hurricane, for helping to dig a scared and mad kitty out from under the seat of a car, for making sure that the dog of an outsider artist got its shots, as well as for gently and patiently helping people say goodbye to beloved pets.

B. Young February 7th, 2009 10:25:28 AM

Your doing great Doc just keep in mind when your working to do positive things be them big or small (small is beautiful) your going to have to swallow the criticism of the whole world more often then not.

Evet February 7th, 2009 10:28:39 AM

This is one of the few websites that I visit EVERY day. I just want to thank you for providing quality content despite your busy life. (I'd also like to know how you DO everything, and if you can share that secret with me!)

Crystal February 7th, 2009 10:46:58 AM

I'm currently subscribed to 200+ RSS feeds, of which 25+ relate directly to dogs, and, FWIW, yours is the only veterinary one I'm still subscribed to.

Even though I actually only recently found your blog, I've already come to depend on it for very useful info and I'd miss it if it were gone.

I've seen a lotta discussion about how to handle comments and the pros and cons of disabling them - maybe that's what you wanna do, though, at least for a while.

Al February 7th, 2009 10:49:32 AM

First and foremost: HAPPY BIRTHDAY to your son!

Second and third: SORRY and Thank You.

For those of us who tend to hijack the threads, feel free to join me at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PJSandbox/ Actually, everyone is welcome to join and I'm the only one with access to the membership list so, unless you post, no one will even know you're on there. If you have trouble joining the group, email me at PJBoo9@yahoo.com with the email address you want to use on the group and I'll add you. You may not have as broad an audience there but then we don't want to chase off Dr. K's audience either.

I will now try to shut up for a couple of weeks. :)

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 11:06:15 AM

Dr. Khuly,

I subscribe to several hundred RSS feeds as well as author my own blog. There will always be the "haters" who just want to post negative comments. It is nice to have some positive comments, but the extreme, impertinent, negative comments do bring down the mood. Unfortunately, those may never go away, and I commend you on having the guts to post all of them. I just want to say your efforts on Dolittler make this one of the top 10 blogs in the country - IMHO. Great information, and you actively post with commendable regularity - and believe me, I know how hard it is to come up with great relevant content that regularly. Don't let them get you down! We love your blog! We share your blog posts with our customers! You are making a difference!

Cary

Owner - Bigwag Dog Bakery - Rogers, AR - www.bigwag.com

Cary February 7th, 2009 11:09:56 AM

I think it is absolutely fair.

I apologize for broaching the subject of vet-negative online communities on the previous post. This probably wasn't the best venue to vent my frustrations.

It just drives me all sorts of strawberry-flavored batty to hear assertions that the veterinary profession is dominated by the uncaring, inept, money-hungry, or otherwise morally bankrupt. Some of the kindest, brightest, most giving people I know are veterinarians. They've devoted their lives to this, sometimes at great personal expense.. and it pains me to see them so carelessly lumped in with the unscrupulous sludge at the bottom of the barrel.

If we as pet owners aren't able to work with the veterinary community, the end result is that everyone suffers.. most of all our pets. I have seen very real grievances aired online, and make no mistake- I'm not dismissing those. But so frequently, they are aired in a manner that unnecessarily and unfairly demeans and vilifies the profession as a whole and in doing so fails to facilitate the open, honest discussion necessary to effect positive change.

Ramen Connoisseur February 7th, 2009 11:12:20 AM

I found your blog via a specific search for veterinary blogs when I was thinking about the kind of blogging I'd like to do. None of the vet blogs I found were as interesting, timely and thoughtful as yours. Not to mention how well you write - that's something you definitely don't learn in vet school. I admire your energy to continually write up these posts while doing full time practice. I'm also a vet with an 11-yr-old kid (and his 7-yr-old brother) balancing a part-time vet career with translation and writing, and yet I don't have anywhere near your output (I'm aiming for it, but you've set the bar quite high). I often come here to find out reliable, balanced and thoughtful information on subjects I consider to be truly important veterinary issues. I hope you keep it up in spite of the rants.

brebis noire February 7th, 2009 11:16:25 AM

PJBoosinger: Please don't "shut up." You offer constructive comments on a variety of issues and I would not like to see the on-topic ones appear only once every couple of weeks.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 7th, 2009 11:20:06 AM

Dr. K, thank you, kind as always. As the regulars know, my entry here was that of a bull in a china shop and I'd fully expected immediate bannishment. One of the things that impressed me most was that you didn't do that. Like any good guest, I need to watch my manners. We both know I could at least do a better job of self moderation as I'm much too easily side tracked off the main topic. I was thinking much the same as what you wrote a couple of days ago when I was going back through some posts and realizing how prolific I'd become here. I'll just try to start anew by staying on topic :)

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 11:30:43 AM

Hm.. computer ate the tail end of my post.

I'm on my way out the door, and seeing as I've already posted a novel up there, I'll try to keep it brief:

You haven't failed in the least! There's a reason your readership is so high. This is one of the most entertaining and informative pet-centered blogs I've encountered online, and it's probably the only blog (subject notwithstanding) that I frequent on a daily basis. Your posts are something I look forward to every morning- often providing one of the more compelling reasons for me to haul my shamefully nocturnal self out of bed at a decent hour. (I suppose there's always class.. but on the compelling front, 'entertaining read' trumps 'early morning gen chem lecture' every time.)

Keep up the good work! :)

Ramen Connoisseur February 7th, 2009 11:32:22 AM

Oh, Dr K,

I know of the frustrations you feel, and how one never seems to have any down time when one has a full time job and kids to raise into good adults (for me, it's not kids but currently 10 cats). The negativity and feeling of bashing ones head against the wall and not making any headway or difference in the lives of pets, can be overwhelming at times.

I could go on and on about people giving their pets the minimum health care, coming in with carriers that look like they've been stored in a henhouse, cats reeking of cigarette smoke and surprise, having asthma and the owners don't get it, breeders not screening their cats for inherited defects and just saying "Well, I've never had one keel over"...

But this post is not to bring up all that, but to say that I only subscribe to 2 vet blogs and yours is the one I check daily and learn from, so therefore our cat hospitals clients get better care because I am more educated, etc.

Moderating your posts and having a "blue smoke" day sounds like a good option, so when out of 7 days, you can feel good on 6 of them, that is the goal here, right?

Warmfelines,

Teri and the cats of Furrydance

Teri and the cats of Furrydance February 7th, 2009 12:51:51 PM

"take this post to hash out the issue of veterinary malfeasance"

OK ladies and gents. We got a freebie day handed to us on a silver platter. I'd start but my stories just pale by comparison. Where's my compatriots out there????? Don't go silent now, come on, unload!

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 12:55:14 PM

Dr. Khuly, I hear your exasperation. I think most of us have daily schedules as busy as yours. I for one, hold a full-time job, have several rescued, formerly abused pets with health and behavioral issues, a spouse, a child, and group of friends, some with serious health issues and in need of help. In addition, I am involved in a few charitable causes (both animal and people-related). I have a couple of suggestions for you, as a fellow working mom, which could help in diminishing frustrations and hostilities you are seeing on your blog. One of them: treat people with compassion. When pet owners address on your blog the unspeakable tragedies of loosing their beloved pets to senseless mistakes of incompetent and unscrupulous individuals, let these victims know you are sorry about their loss! Loosing a pet is heartbreaking under the best of circumstances, and many a support group exists to deal with that alone. Loosing a pet through wrongful death is a million times more difficult, and no support group exists to deal specifically with that (can you start one?). Compassion to fellow humans should not be diminished by the mere fact that the incompetent and dishonest individuals alleged to have caused the said tragedies happen to be your fellow professionals, people whose interests you "represent" by serving on their professional board. As good humans, we should represent the interest of those who deserve our compassion, not only of those who pay us membership fees. The second one: be fair and objective. Fairness and objectivity are simple and absolute: if Dr. Jones let my cat go without treatment for his UTI and my cat died from it, and the reason for the non-treatment was that Dr. Jones was more interested in playing golf that day, let Dr. Jones know he was wrong! When we ask you for your help in finding justice for our Fluffies, Smokeys and Daisies, don't tell us that "with all due respect" you don't represent our interests! For one, we pay your salaries! For two, we are your fellow human beings, who deserve your compassion and objectivity.

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 12:56:54 PM

Dr. K, do you regularly post on Sundays? How about making every other Saturday a Vet Malfeasance case and taking the following Sunday off so we can rail until the wee hours on Monday morning? (You, probably all of us, need at least one day a week away from the computer/internet.)

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 01:11:55 PM

Natalie, I think Dr. K. does a whole hell of a lot of giving us compassion and objectivity, already. And I think she has expressed that to any of us who've mentioned bad experiences at a vet's office - not only by letting those who cannot write a comment, no matter on what topic, without bringing up their bad experience, even when it doesn't really relate to the post of the day, but also by continuing to speak nicely to us whenever we have a question related to the topic. So, thank you very much, Dr. Khuly, for being so hardworking and accomodating!

This post is actually so timely, for me, because just this past week I've urged 4 clients to check out your blog (and I only worked 9 hours this week). I mentioned that it has a lot of good info and promotes dialogue between clients and their vet, but I've also felt I had to warn them that there were some people whose comments against vets can be somewhat intimidating. I think it can set a tone that most 'average' clients will back away from, and I think it would be more helpful for those clients who aren't yet 'dog/cat nuts' like most of us (yes, I certainly count myself in that group), if they weren't shocked at some of the anti-vet comments. That being said, there most definitely are times when horror stories and anti-vet comments are warrented, and yes, the 'average' clients could learn a lot from them, too. But when we're just supposed to be talking about ear mites, that's probably not the time to talk about a vet killing your pet, which most likely didn't happen from bad treatment of ear mites.

And I know that I've made comments that have ticked off people here, and I'm sorry. We all feel passionately about many issues relating to animals, and sometimes, whether it's meant the way it sounds, or comes out with a different tone than we actually mean, tempers can flare and people's feeling can be hurt. I've never meant to hurt anyone's feelings, no matter what it sounded like. I only speak rudely on purpose to someone's face in a situation that warrants it (dog trapped in hot car, for example), never online.

KateH February 7th, 2009 01:34:20 PM

KateH, thank you for your comment. I have never made a comment on killing on a string on earmites. I respect everyone's right to speak on all veterinary and pet-related subjects. On the other hand, when I wrote my comments on negligent deaths, and when I read other people's comments on this subject, I have not seen any expressions of condolences from Dr. Khuly or anyone else. Maybe I missed them; if so, please let me know where they are. I am not, and never have, advocated extremism. I am simply letting other pet owners and some vets know the truth. The truth is: mistakes that lead to avoidable pet deaths happen. Let's be compassionate and objective regardless of our affiliations. Let's have an effective and fair system of dealing with these mistakes. Let's have an optimal system of checks and balances for preventing as many of these needless deaths as possible. Let's not have a professional network of vets play a role of avoiding negligent vets responsibility for their mistakes. Let's work together towards this goal and not against each other. Saying "we do not represent your interest" does not do much for working together. Your good ideas and thoughts on this subject are much appreciated.

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 02:16:20 PM

Natalie, I never said you made a comment like that. I was using a reference to what Dr. K. had used an example: "Yet when I can’t even discuss ear mites without receiving a sour comment or two on bad bad vets, I have cause to rethink this position." I said: "But when we're just supposed to be talking about ear mites, that's probably not the time to talk about a vet killing your pet, which most likely didn't happen from bad treatment of ear mites." This had nothing to do with you, personally.

Also, I didn't say that Dr. K. had expessed condolences - because if she did, she'd spend all her time doing that, instead of coming up with interesting posts on various topics that all of us can learn something from - which is, I think, her reason for working more hours than necessary in the first place. I said I thought she'd given us compassion and objectivity, by the way she conducts the comments section and her direct answers to questions about a topic. I wish I could understand how you misunderstood me, but I don't, so sorry if you didn't get what I was trying to say.

KateH February 7th, 2009 02:38:23 PM

Thank you for the clarification, KateH. Expression of condolences upon a mention of a pet's wrongful death is a matter of basic human decency, regardless of one's affiliation, profession, position, creed, or color, and as such, a basic requirement in normal human interactions. It does not take much time and does not take focus away from other "intetersting posts" or activities. Even a lawyer for the drunk driver accused of killing someone's child would be expected to say to the mother of that child "I am so sorry about your loss." Such words set a better tone in a situation that is already difficult and tragic, regardless of anything else. Such words would not take detract from the work of the lawyer in defending the drunk driver. Also, with all due respect to the earmite problem, the problem of wrongful deaths and lack of accountability in the veterinary field is more serious and pressing, although I agree that all problems should be discussed in their due turn, and people should not be rude to each other. One note on your comment about being rude, however: expressing a negative opinion of someone's position is not always the same as being rude, and even though it may be your choice to express your negative opinions only in critical situations, such as dog in a hot car, other people have the right to exercise their choices too. When people are driven to rudeness by lack of recourse or fairness, you can't always expect them to say "Oh, but you are so deeply mistaken about this, Sir (or Madam)." The best way to avoid (or diminish) rudeness on their part may be to express compassion and address the problem.

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 03:18:06 PM

Dr. K . . .

First of all, I appreciate this forum being as democratic as it has. I think that those of us who hold critical points of view add a great deal to the discussions here -- check out your "most read" and most interesting threads!

Having said that, I admit that it’s been a particularly rough week here. I think there were things that really begged to be responded to (AVMA rep most of all) and it just set some of us off.

However, as you consider what to do about those of us who are often very critical of vets, here is a fact I'd like you to consider:

Those of us who post here wouldn't be doing so if we weren't a really important part of your lay audience. We have all become KEENLY interested in veterinary medicine in many cases AS A RESULT of bad experiences. Happy go lucky clients who sashay in and out of vet hospitals happily satisfied are probably not likely to spend lots of time here, become regular readers or posters. Why would they? So either this blog is going to be directed at a primarily veterinary audience, or, well, you will see people here who know that any characterization of the entire profession as all caring is not entirely correct. We can’t un-know what we know, so are we supposed to . . . be complicit in helping people get the impression that all vets are like you?

This site runs the risk of being yet another advertisement for how wonderful vets are. Those of us who are here and know that NOT all vets provide conscientious care, often feel a moral obligation to point that out lest your readership get the impression that all vets are equally conscientious, which would only serve the purpose of encouraging people to blindly trust vets, which we believe is dangerous. People like the lady I just got off the phone with are truly in a state of shock and disbelief to realize that they have gone to a vet that did not provide good care. It just never would have occurred to them that this was a possibility. We’d all do well to be skeptical, and it seems to me important to remind people that NOT ALL VETS are like you.

I say the following with actual affection for you, for the education this forum does . . . and for your thick skin and impulses toward democracy.

You say you "get it." But I’m not so sure. Here is why:

You say that it is YOUR FAILING that you have not managed to convince many of us that: "a great many veterinarians all over the world do far more than I do...ultimately by way of serving the interests of the animals we advocate for on a daily basis and not for our own personal gain."

Is that the purpose of this blog? For you to convince us how great vets all over the world are? To advocate for your profession, RATHER THAN to advocate for the BEST OF your profession? Why not settle for convincing us how great YOU are? You certainly usually succeed at that. But don’t take the world on your own shoulders nor make yourself the public representative of a profession that has within its ranks the excellent and the very bad – just like all professions – the key difference being that there is NO will within the regulatory bodies of your profession to remove the bad, and NO way for those of us outside it to do so – resulting in the incredible sense of urgency we feel to warn people they must not blindly trust and must be a skeptical consumer. You will never convince US (the burned ones) of ANYTHING about your entire profession, or even the majority of it – so if you must either succeed at turning us into fans or ban us, so be it.

What you can convince us of is that there are good vets out there, and I think you have succeeded at that, and continue to do so. If we go away, we will lose that reminder.

I know for a fact that vets who speak out are threatened by their colleagues. That needs to change. I’m willing to bet you are getting some negative feedback from fellow vets about letting some of us post here. Squelching dissent from consumers is just a bit removed from telling colleagues to keep their traps shut when other vets commit malpractice. It’s not the way to the light.

If the purpose of this blog is NOT to convince us all how great the entire profession and all vets are, then it's NOT your failing that many of us don’t believe that. You haven't failed.

If anything, you do, by example, succeed in demonstrating that there ARE vets who are thoughtful, who actually even REFLECT on what they could have done better, and are even open when they question themselves, and attempt to raise the bar on standards.

So be an example to us and to your profession. You can’t stop the rest of vets who don’t uphold those standards from speaking for themselves AND for part of your profession, and don’t try.

I also don’t think you “get it” when you say:

"occasional cruelties committed in the name of alleviating animal suffering."

The "occasional cruelties" you refer to are NOT committed in the name of alleviating animal suffering.

You can’t possibly convince me that William Baber did what he did -- step on cats and shove needles in their hearts fully conscious as they struggled -- to alleviate animal suffering.

Sean Saltsburg did not punch a horse to alleviate his suffering.

Etc etc. etc.

Anyway, do as you wish. It’s your blog! You can either help convince us burned consumers that lots of vets are good, by continuing to make this a welcoming place and keep us around, or you can decide that you want this blog to speak with one voice – a self-congratulatory one for the profession. You can be an example, or you can be a purveyor of marketing.

I have little interest in reading veterinary marketing literature or fan club board walls, so if that’s what you want it to become, I assure you many of us will disappear whether you ban us, moderate us, or not -- and your dilemma will disappear with us. You will get your TV spots with the full support of your profession, they won’t criticize you for providing an outlet that sometimes lets the bad things come out, and you can use your blog to promote a happy image of your profession, which you seem frustrated at having “failed” to do.

I’d rather you “be the change you wish to see” in your profession (cuz I think you do know the score) . . . but this can only be if you acknowledge that much change is needed and that blanket idolatry of your profession isn’t a good thing you need to nurture. Just be an example, that’s the best you can do. You aren’t the entire profession.

We need to remember that and I will remind myself that more often. But remind yourself, too.

By the way, my PS is – I really like my vet. I say nice things about her and her business in public. I kinda even trust her. I’d probably cut her a break even if she screwed up as long as it was an understandable thing (not like what happened to my cat). In fact, if I’d never stopped taking Toonces to her in the first place (because I moved) Toonces would never have been overdosed, brain damaged, etc. I know this to the core of my being. It’s a fact. It's also probably a fact that since I had such excellent experiences there, I gave a great deal of "referred" trust to another vet who didn't warrant it, and that was dangerous, because those business are night and day. I even know another good vet, too. But that no longer translates into trust of the entire profession . . . or even any other individual vet. And I don’t think it should, and I think anything, including a blog, that endeavors to promote trust of an entire profession of people (inhabited by those practising at varied levels) is potentially dangerous, just as my blind trust of one vet -- due to my habit of assuming the best about all vets -- was dangerous to my much beloved Toonces. I could kick myself over and over, and I do. And I don't want anyone to go through that . . . but they do.

Stefani February 7th, 2009 03:25:32 PM

Oh, by the way, thank you.

Stefani February 7th, 2009 03:40:34 PM

I double-checked the earmite thread. There are no off-topic posts in that thread, no vet rants, etc. :)

Stefani February 7th, 2009 03:43:57 PM

Natalie,

I've seen Dr. K say nice things or give condolences to pet owners who've lost pets and yes, condolences are often part of normal human decency. However, when you have someone on nearly EVERY SINGLE POST bemoaning the awful thing a vet did to them, it's impossible to keep up. Especially when many of these people are repeating the same story over and over. As I see it, Dr. K has the option of either a.) saying something nice occasionally when she has time and feels it's warranted or b.) spending countless hours policing to comments to say "Sorry for your loss! So sorry! My greatest condolences!" for someone who was wronged by someone else in a situation she hasnt got the details for.

Dr. K isn't looking for a vet fan club - that should be apparent based on many of her posts discussing the limitations of vet med and discussing ethical issues. When she says "Hey guys - keep it on topic. You're alienating people!", she's right. Complain about vets when it pertains. That's fine. Or put a blog link in your signature/at the end of your comment. People interested in your posts will read it and see your information.

Frankly, constantly railing against vets just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder. People start to tune you out because of the vitriol and you don't win anyone to your cause, however worthy it may be or however sad your situation.

Tara M February 7th, 2009 04:11:41 PM

I hate to hone in on the ear mites, But I don't see anything either? Maybe it has been removed? Or was it the person's question that lived far away?

From what I gather from the posters, Dr. Khuly, you should be darn PROUD! Quotes of 200 blogs and yours is regularly tuned in!! I can't help but suspect it is BECAUSE the 1st ammendment is honored and uncensored.

Now that there are no email threads, someone can read and easily skip comments as to not offend readers. Was I offended by the "Cathy Gajewski" comment? Not one bit...I even doubt that it was placed by her.

Was I offended by the old "anonymous from Boston" comments? Well some of us may have "retorted", but we were blunt but "civil".

Yes, I have written some "unpleasant truths", but also some darn nice ones about my experiences. And I do know explicitly what "intimidation and corruption" means and how scary it can be, very "mafia-like", only I don't know anyone in the mafia. I can no longer be intimidated like that.

"occasional cruelties committed in the name of alleviating animal suffering": this sentence was meant to be reworded. Cruelty & alleviating animal suffering does not ho hand in hand.

I have sometimes forgotten that you are a gifted, proud parent, with a family founded instilled belief of moral & ethical foundation. And wouldn't that just be a pip if the AVMA threatened "your" membership. Sincere Happy Birthday to your son, who I am certain is equally proud! Thank you for all you do, Barbara A. Albright, New Hampshire

Pocket's Story from NH February 7th, 2009 04:40:02 PM

Natilie,

"Even a lawyer for the drunk driver accused of killing someone's child would be expected to say to the mother of that child "I am so sorry about your loss."" Very true and in many other situations lawyers are put in the position of making that statement and, no matter how sincere, it is going to sound hollow and often even taken as offensive. Personally, I'd rather a professional acting in that capacity maintain a compassionate and objective tone than offer what I know will sound hollow and empty even if it isn't.

"the problem of wrongful deaths and lack of accountability in the veterinary field is more serious and pressing, although I agree that all problems should be discussed in their due turn". Agreed but this is Dr. K's forum and she sets the agenda here, including the topic of the day. If we want a place to just focus on deaths and accountability, we can go find them or create one. We do not get to permanently hijack someone else's work and forum because that is neither fair nor reasonable. We live in a world of limited resources and multiple issues. While it would be nice to take things in "due turn", the world will not stop while we take care of one thing and, if we focus on the top item on the list until it is resolved, many things down the list will be deteriorating for lack of even being observed and will eventually push themselves to the top; multi-tasking is a necessity, not a luxury.

"Let's be compassionate and objective regardless of our affiliations". Seems to me Doc has been compassionate. Objectivity is always relative except to saints and I don't think any of us will be claiming sainthood.

"Let's have an effective and fair system of dealing with these mistakes. Let's have an optimal system of checks and balances for preventing as many of these needless deaths as possible." OK, let's make a plan to get there instead of us all complaining about it on someone else's blog. I've offered one place in an earlier post today for such discussions and I'm sure there are others out there too.

"Let's not have a professional network of vets play a role of avoiding negligent vets responsibility for their mistakes. Let's work together towards this goal and not against each other. "and "Saying "we do not represent your interest" does not do much for working together." I get the impression these are in reference to AVMA. If so, read the "about" section for AVMA http://www.avma.org/about_avma/default.asp. If we want a seat at the table, we need representation or at least a collective voice. I can assure you that you don't want your representative (perhaps a lawyer) advocating anyone's position but yours. AVMA works with others but it represents Veterinarians and it is clear on its role as we need to be. Trusting or expecting that someone you think is an adversary will represent you is a very poor choice.

I know that some of my goals may well be absolutely reverse of AVMA's. That's OK for me, they aren't representing me. I'll keep looking until I find a group that does or I'll try to create one. I've made that poor choice mentioned above a few times in my life. It rarely turns out well. Even so, having a better or collective voice does not mean 100% agreement (internally as members will also disagree and certainly not externally). It just means better communication and often better bargaining power.

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 04:46:20 PM

Dr. K, Yeah, you could have chosen a better cite than the Ear Mites. I think it's the ONLY day we've behaved and stayed on topic in the last week. :)

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 04:48:31 PM

Tara, thank you! I see your point. Like you I believe in appropriate and measured expressions of concern and even anger. The problem is when people feel ignored while expressing legitimate worries in appropriate contexts, and many of those who become irate do so because they feel there is no place for them to turn to get a fair hearing or action, although I don't condone repeated irate outbursts or any other inappropriate railing. When we state that there is no accountability for bad vets and give examples, we should not be told that yes, there is, and no, don't come to us, other veterinarians, for fairness and defence of your interests. The problem of bad vets and lack of recourse for their victims is important and systemic; it could potentially concern any pet owner. I dare even say it is more important than the earmites because there are adequate (albeit not perhaps fully adequate) remedies against earmites AND they are not lifethreatening. The problem of unsafe vets IS lifethreatening, AND there is no adequate remedy against it. Addressing it in an honest, unbiased, and effective way is in everyone's interest. When it is addressed, the vitriol and the railing will diminish. Finally, you say "railing against vets," but the railing is not against vets. All (or nearly all) of those who have tragically lost pets to bad vets have surviving pets and continue to go to vets, although with lots more caution and resevervation. I like, respect and trust my current vet. The railing is in response to those situations (and those only, I hope) in which inappropriate acts were perpetrated by vets, and no meaningful recourse was available.

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 05:07:56 PM

PJBoosinger, to respond to your comment, I DO want my lawyer to advocate the position of objective truth, even if it happens to be the position of someone besides me. A novel concept?

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 05:16:09 PM

I am sure Dr. K. just used ear mites as an simple thing that COULD be hijacked - and did not mean that that particular post was hijacked. I know that's how I took it, and how I meant it, too. Sometimes people post things relating to their own particular loss that have little, if anything, to do with the topic of the day. I think Dr. K. is asking how it is that when she posts about one thing, commenters can go off-topic and start being more vitriolic (thanks, Tara, that's such a good word) than the topic warrants.

Dr. K. has spoken about other vets who haven't done a good job, both here and in a public legal case. Asking her, or demanding, as it seems some want, to start castigating every bad vet she knows, isn't going to let her continue to be a vet. And check out badvetdaily.blogspot.com if that's what you want to read about - but there's no commenting there.

KateH February 7th, 2009 05:23:12 PM

Tara, I second Natalie's thankyou. Unless, I am completely unaware, the "railing" was appropriate for the subject or in response to another's comment. Yes, we honed in on the AVMA guest blog, I feel it was appropriate.

Didn't feel a need on the Obama blog, the ear mite blog, the food blogs, and a host of others. In the past, there have been numerous offerings. Didn't someone ask about C-sections? I got out my records and quoted it. Didn't see anyone else answer.

PJBoosinger: I don't think anyone wants a "I'm sorry for your loss" statement. I got that so many times from so many sources, I could vomit! I "lost" an awful lot of pets over 30+ years...Pocket was no situation to "solicit sympathy".

And all I can say in perhaps a meaningless defense to those who luckily have not experienced this type of blatant cruelty: while it appears to be abhorrent words in a reader's FACE...just think of what "painful extermination" of MY pet was like in MY FACE (and arms). Words could "never" hurt like that.

Barbara A. Albright/ps. we do not repeat ourselves, for our sake, and certainly not Dr. Khuly's, but for the possibility of reaching the one to make a difference/prevention

Pocket's Story from NH February 7th, 2009 05:39:55 PM

KateH, I don't believe that Dr. K. has been asked to castigate anyone. She has been asked to address the situation of no accountability for bad vets and no recourse for the owners of the pets who have been harmed. It is a legitimate request of someone who created a blog on veterinary issues and of someone who serves as part of the state veterinary association, which claims to be interested in protecting the interests of our pets.

Natalie Kramer February 7th, 2009 05:58:36 PM

I think it's just the winter cabin fever thing going on lately. Every message board of any type I've been one lately seems like everyone is arguing with everyone over everything. Dr. Patty, I like your blogs, and at times I enjoy the comments. For those that tend to go off on a tangent often with their own agenda I just ignore. It's a shame they've caused you to lose sponsorship to help keep this wonderful site going. I hope Spring brings a refreshing to the commenters and keeps the tangents to a bare minimum.

cl February 7th, 2009 06:22:58 PM

We always read your blog and are better for it. I'm sorry I don't read all the comments, but I kinda wish I did so I could have responded to them. Please keep writing and helping us be good pet parents.

Cathy

Cathy and Bandit February 7th, 2009 07:04:38 PM

Well, Dr. K, you're in a lose, lose no matter what you do. It didn't take long for the comments on this post to start "going off the rails" as it were.

There are times when reading the comments does get tiring. If there weren't little nuggets of gold that make it worth it from time to time, I wouldn't bother.

Your site is the only vet site I read everyday, and I appreciate your POV and the education you provide us. I think it's one of the top sites on the web. I also think it is well balanced. I also find value in some of the comments. It's interesting to see the POV of others in your profession and other pet owners.

You provide topics for discussion that many of us aren't going to get to discuss with our vet, or get a lot of time to disucss when it is a busy day at a vet's office. And unless we have a good or long time relationship with our vet, we may not get as honest a POV. Because you are so honest and provide this outlet, you get to bear the brunt of people's emotions.

But at the risk of starting another bit of hijacking, I believe a lot of us have our own webistes or blogs, if we have strong POVs or agendas, that avenue might be a better outlet than this site when things go off topic. Say what you want on your site. Even provide a link to it here if you feel others may want to discuss something.

Dr K shouldn't be the punching bag just because she has chosen to make herself accessable.

cheshire February 7th, 2009 07:05:32 PM

Dr. K,

Originally, I was going to post on here expressing my thanks for an un-mediated, uncensored blog and comment section. After recently being banned from a pet forum for "flaming" a moderator by pointing out that the studies she quoted actually had little to do with the debate at hand (and one actually proved the opposite point she was trying to make - to the point where she deleted my post and ended the thread... lol) I was admittedly somewhat enraged at the fact that this kind of editing was going on. That people were being fed one side of the story and not being allowed access to the other side. Incidentally, I was also warned for posting on the potential dangers of speutering, and used your wonderful previous posts as reference links regarding the topic (including ovariohysterectomy vs. ovariectomy). I was infuriated that I would be silenced for voicing the truth - backed by references and scientific studies, against heresay and congecture, fearmongering and propaganda.

BUT - then I went and read the AVMA thread. There were some brilliant questions, some hard hitting comments... and some rambling diatribes that simply attacked your profession blindly, without reference or merit.

And so, while I still want to express my thanks for providing an un-mediated, uncensored blog - up until this point - I have to be honest and admit that I wouldn't blame you if you felt the need to change these practices in the near future.

In addition, if what I read is true, and you have indeed lost sponsorship due to the comments left on this blog, well I am truly sorry. While I support everyone's right to free speech, I also believe that there are places and times for certain discussions, and being passionate about a topic does not give anyone the right to lose their temper, fly off the handle, rant and rave like a lunatic and generally muddy the waters to the point where the "discussion" erodes into a mudslinging battle royale.

I've been at the center of a few doozies myself <grin> but I do make a concerted effort (and hopefully I've succeeded - I suppose I can't be the judge) to keep it between the lines. Things can get heated, things can get passionate, things can even get a bit hot occasionally - but when it fuzzes the line of "sane response" I don't see a problem with the post being moderated.

I, for one, don't know how you do it - I work part time, have no children but run a full time special needs rescue for dogs and parrots out of my home. I frequent many boards, keep up three websites, and have attempted to blog on several occasions - but I simply can't find the regular time, even every few days, let alone daily. There are days when I have talked/typed animal care/welfare so many hours in a row I literally do NOT have another drop of animalia left in me. It's time to cuddle with my pups, kiss my parrots goodnight, and curl up with a good book (most likely about dogs or parrots... lol) and go to sleep.

Oh, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY to your very lucky son. :O)

Kim February 7th, 2009 07:13:24 PM

I understand that those whose pets have been abused by vets are trying to reach out to "just one more person" each time they tell or reference the story. But for those of us who are regular readers of Dolitter, the repeated telling of each story only serves to make your story less and less impactful. I now scan comments backwards so that I can see the author of each comment first, and I skip those posted by people most likely to have posted a story I've read a hundred times over. It's not that I hate or disagree with the idea that there are bad vets out there- it's that I don't want to get desensitized to the idea that there are bad vets out there.

Megan February 7th, 2009 07:15:38 PM

Natilie, "I DO want my lawyer to advocate the position of objective truth, even if it happens to be the position of someone besides me. A novel concept?" No, I've actually been hired twice to do exactly that. It is unusualy in the extreme to hire someone to take an adversarial position even if others might see it as representing the objective truth. Lawyers can do that but most people hire representatives to speak for their beliefs which may not be what someone else would consider objective truth. It would indeed be easy if we could all agree on what the objective truth is but therein lies the rub, we can't.

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 07:22:02 PM

Barbara, you're right words could never hurt like that. If you're in the position of saying it on a regular basis though, you feel like you're adding insult to injury. There isn't a good answer to this one because there's no way on the internet to know if someone would like you to say it or not, especially if it's a first time commenter.

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 07:29:32 PM

Word, Dr. K. We know who the comment ho's are. Have to say I get extremely turned off when I see two siggies in particular. Interestingly enough, they've shown up here. (Stefani and Barbara, I'm looking at YOU.)

Deanna February 7th, 2009 07:59:34 PM

I second someone else's comment that a lot of the reader's here originally found this blog because something upsetting happened to them that was related to the veterinary profession.

In my case, I went to work at my trusted veterinarian's office as a receptionist and part-time kennel person. This was a vet we had been clients of for years and believed in 100%.

I then saw things happen in that practice that sent me reeling. I went home and cried after work, often. I went on the internet to try to find out if some of the things I was seeing were even legal. Because some of the things that went on there were not only hazardous to animal health, they were hazardous to human health. OSHA would have had a field day with that place.

I have still not gotten over my experience there. It will always color my view of vets, and I know that's unfair. I know there are so many vets out there who are practically saints and who get up every morning wanting to do their best to help animals. But I no longer believe that I can tell which vets are the good guys and which aren't.

For example, I saw a vet who firmly believed in wholistic treatments, raw feeding, alternative therapies, etc., and who had made the paper for working to save a local dog poisoned during dog food recalls, lose his temper at a dog who kept chewing his stitches, and punch the dog. Twice. The kind of disillusionment a person aquires from seeing something like that will not go away very easily.

That's why this subject comes up so often, at least for me. Everytime I read your posts, I am reading them in order to make sense of my one horrid experience working in that vet's office. I am always asking the same questions when I read Doolittler, because I can't make those questions go away, they will be with me from now on.

I am so glad you have this blog. Reading the posts you make such an effort to write reminds me on a near-daily basis that the good-guy vets are out there. Sorry you have to deal with all of the angst that people like me bring with us when we come here.

FarmFashion February 7th, 2009 08:07:01 PM

Stefani, I have to disagree on two specific points. "NO will within the regulatory bodies of your profession to remove the bad". If that were really true, no Vet would ever be disciplined or removed and they have been.

"NO way for those of us outside it to do so". Yes, there are several but we're not doing an effective efficient job of it. The first time I got seriously screwed over was by my child's father, the second was by the lawyer I hired to sue him. I found out fast that I could even file my own lawsuits and win, no law degree necessary. I appealed my custody case to the state supreme court (long before law school graduation, let alone any practical application of that education) and, although I lost, there was a dissenting justice's opinion which was the basis for someone else's later win on the issue as the tides shifted. I did decide to go to law school so I could become more effective and efficient. We are not powerless individually and certainly not collectively.

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 08:09:35 PM

Well, Dr. K expressed her frustration and offered up a free "slam the malfeasant Vets day". Some of us read it as Dr. K needing kudos and others as a free day to slam Dr. K and each other. Almost everybody I know flies off the handle from time to time and cl seems to be correct of late (full moon, Mercury in retrograde, both?) and Dr. K is certainly more tolerant than most, actually more tolerant than the vast majority of bloggers.

Doc, after this day of almost complete hijacking and off-topic-ness, I wouldn't blame you if you kicked all of us out! Nor would I blame you for doing the typical moderator thing of incredeibly across the line posts simply starting to disappear without note, comment, or explanation; especially from repeat offenders.

Just FYI to all, The First Amendment protection of free speech is to protect us from the government censoring us. When we go to other people's homes, businesses, etc. (be they real or cyber), we have NO such right and tolerance is a generous kindness.

PJBoosinger February 7th, 2009 08:25:01 PM

Deanna, thanks for voicing my thoughts so succinctly.

badger February 7th, 2009 09:14:33 PM

Deanna re, comment ho? LOL. Never heard that one before. But I do believe that Dr. K's post was kind of directed at us so . . . what? You expect us not to respond? What good would it do if only people like YOU responded to a post meant to appeal to those of us who have been speaking ill of vets? LOL.

Stefani February 7th, 2009 09:31:55 PM

Here's an idea: everyone decides to be greatful for this great blog that we have to read, that educates us on veterinary-related topics and encourages us to look at things from a vet's perspective from time to time. Considering Dr. Khuly is not paid to write this blog, and that she willingly devotes a lot of her time to writing a lot of articles for our (free!) enjoyment, I think everyone here should cut her some slack. A few of you should be ASHAMED for what you've suggested she provide. Patrol the comments section endlessly so she can correct any misinformation or console every single person who has ever lost a pet ever? Write only about "pressing" matters? "Is that the purpose of this blog? For you to convince us how great vets all over the world are? To advocate for your profession, RATHER THAN to advocate for the BEST OF your profession? Why not settle for convincing us how great YOU are?" The purpose of this blog is for Dr. Khuly to write about any veterinary topics that strike her fancy. It's not to convince those of you who had a bad experience to start loving (or even trusting) your veterinarians. Sorry if you can't find one that you like. I had an awful vet experience, I had my dog's jaw broken with incorrect painkillers administered (chewable tablets for a dog that can't chew) and no disclosure of the possible side-effects of the medication. She suffered for a WEEK before I could convince the vet she was in excruciating pain AND was forming an abcess (I asked for antibiotics numerous times and was poo-pooed because I "didn't go to vet school"). It was an eye-opener about veterinarians BUT I asked around and met some veterinarians and found a new one that I felt more compatible with. The end. Go make a "bad vet blog" or "vets are horrible people mailing list" if you want to continuously whine, complain, and share suspicions about specific veterinarians or the profession in general. The rest of us who enjoy discussing the topic at hand would like to make comments in peace without feeling guilt-tripped into telling you how awful your situation was (even though we've heard it 37 times). And finally: THANK YOU, DR. KHULY, for this fantastic blog! Don't let certain people spoil the fun! :)

Cat February 7th, 2009 09:39:22 PM

I really appreciate your blog. It has really given me some much needed perspective. Also, a little knowledge too. I honestly rarely read the comments. I read your blog for your point of view on any given subject. Though having said that I have been grateful for some of the comments related to peoples experience with any given health issues (hematomas). Don't stress. Everyday I am sure there are more people out here being helped by this site than people belly aching on it. That is a wonderful thing.

Thank you!

Loren February 7th, 2009 09:49:39 PM

Woweee, this one is heating up to the 80 post blog on spaying a long time ago! I luv it! Yesirree, I have read redundant comments from a LOT of people...I have been reading, for what, a year now?? And have a darn good memory. I'm sure not offended, nor sick of, nor feel the need to blast individuals in a "personal" matter. Yes, some of us pick up on "comments, sentences, responses" and respond in disagreement, doesn't everyone? (unless shy or lurking)

Anyone remember the "postal" bashing aimed at me months ago...maybe Sept '08? Jeepers, I didn't go wild or ballistic, even though my job has now been officially confirmed as 189/200.

Deanna, there is no need (for me) to defend Stefani, but she does quote FACTS backed up by the url's incase you have not noticed. And please do "expand" on your general short 3 sentences. Tell us what we say that is so upsetting or out of place, or is this supposed to be like only reading one or two sections of the newspaper.

This IS Dr. Khuly's blog and she is free to edit, delete, tell us we are banned or sanctioned or to go sit in the corner.

Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire

Pocket's Story from NH February 7th, 2009 10:21:46 PM

Well, she did say it was a free for all... I second "Cat's" comment. And I do the same thing Megan does - there are a few posters on here whose posts I just won't read any more, because it's the same crap again and again. Just STOP. Take your agenda elsewhere...and it IS an agenda, no matter how noble you may think it is to be the lone voice of dissent! It reminds me of listening to a drug rep talk...maybe they can make polite conversation for a while, but it always comes back to what's being sold. Or the toxic coworker who comes in every single freaking day, complaining about this or that, always having to have the last word, always feeling like they need to be the person to keep bringing up issues others have heard before and moved past...and it gets so mind-numbing that you lose all sympathy and the offender loses all credibility. If I wanted to read about ways the vet profession screws people over, I'd look for a pissed consumer's blog - that's where some of the posts belong, predictable and unenlightening as they are. So please, just STOP. Nobody wants to read it anymore...even the diplomatic blog author, who felt it necessary to dedicate a post that could have otherwise been used for something interesting, educational, or useful. Get the hint...your welcome is wearing thin, and it's not because you simply disagree or have an opposing point of view, much as you seem to enjoy your own martyrdom. Head on over to a pet loss counseling site and come back when you've moved on.

anna February 7th, 2009 11:16:06 PM

"Frankly, constantly railing against vets just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder."

Spending $5,000.00 within 3 weeks and having my companion misdiagnosed by boarders and speaking out loud is not "a chip on my shoulder"--it's pain and outrage!

Dr. K: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to post our "negative" comments. I always believed that my "negative comments posted whenever and wherever appropriate, was constructive criticism. I also believed that by pointing out your colleagues' errors would better equip you in avoiding similar diagnostic errors. I would also expect you to acknowledge that vets are a profession like any other where there are always the good, the bad, and the ugly. . . What is your website's goal? What kind of bloggers do you wish to post comments? Personally, I have identified two kinds of bloggers--1) veterinarians and vet staff and 2) companion guardians who have lost their companions to veterinarians' misdiagnosis/negligence/mistreatment. If you wish to exchange knowledge with your fellow vets or compliments, I certainly will not view your site or post a comment on it. I spent 9 years in Germany and other countries in Europe. I did not witness such a wide-spread veterinary problem. Perhaps vets' clientele there is not as large as it is here in the States and the relatively small number of companion animals the vets see motivate them toward an honest client-vet relationship dedicated to the health and well being of the animal (my guess). Finally, German lawns are green and beautiful, but pesticides are illegal in Germany. I saw Germans down on their knees pulling weeds--it was hard work, but they didn't care because they wanted a lawn free of weeds! Asproolee’s Story

Fotini February 8th, 2009 12:01:02 AM

Dr. K: I found your site only after I lost my companion. Sites and blogs similar to yours are searched by guardians ONLY AFTER THEY LOSE THEIR ANIMALS to unfortunate circumstances. I am sure the majority of HAPPY guardians do not search for veterinary websites and blogs because they don't have a reason to!

You have also passed valuable information to me--that specialists do refer patients to other specialists, and for that I THANK YOU!

Fotini February 8th, 2009 12:32:13 AM

I sincerely doubt that the majority of readers are here as a result of negative experiences. With a readership of over 2000, dozens of whom comment, I can only recall a handful of posters alleging veterinary misconduct. Certainly there are plenty of reasons other than discontent or some connection to the profession that could lead one to seek out veterinary information.

Personally, I'm here because I find the subject matter fascinating.. and because the more I know, the better I can care and advocate for the boys. Especially now that we're dealing with some complex medical issues. Nothing more, nothing less. There are many reasons for a "happy" owner to want to keep themselves informed.

I could be wrong, but from what I have seen, it appears the discontented compromise a small but vocal minority.

Ramen Connoisseur February 8th, 2009 01:43:31 AM

Ramen Connoisseur, I agree. Frankly there are around 3-4 people who come here to complain almost non-stop. Some of them have gotten better over time, but others have not. I don't think the rest of the people are here because they're in the profession or because they've been burned. They just love pets! Seriously, this is linked to Pet Connection's blog, which has a pretty big readership of pet owners, dog trainers, vet staff personnel, shelter workers, and any other animal lover you can think of. Fontini, don't you think it's possible that lots of people just love pets?

Tara M February 8th, 2009 07:58:37 AM

Some of the posters here (not Dr. Khuly) are vets or vet techs who makie it clear that, on the one hand, pet owners should never question the judgment of the veterianarian, who after all is The One Who Knows All On This subject, or at least way more than any (by definition!) ignorant pet owner, and, on the other hand, if something does go wrong because of inadequate or inappropriate treatment, it's the fault of the pet owner for not having questioned the obvious error, or for not taking to the more expensive vet across town--or in the next county.

And yes, Anna, I'm looking at you.

Lis February 8th, 2009 08:32:49 AM

I really enjoy this blog and would hate to see it gone. Thank you for writing it. I have you to thank for some of my up to date cat health information. Such as your post on Convenia, which my vet later prescribed to clear up a nasty recurrent case of chin acne for one of my cats. I felt confident okaying the product because I had read your blog about it.

I read several pet related blogs, and a lot of authors take the weekends off, and random days during the week off if they are busy. I would rather check in and see no post for the day than see the whole blog gone.

Raven's Mom February 8th, 2009 08:52:49 AM

I have had good doctors and bad doctors. I have had good teachers and bad teachers. I have had good bosses and bad bosses. I have had good friends and bad friends. I have had great vets and a couple visits with not so great vets. No sense in bashing a whole class of people or professions for the fact that there are some within the profession that are not so good. We have control over who we choose as a doctor, vet or friend. You can't always choose your boss or teacher. Go look for the good doctors, friends and vets. They are out there. And you don't have to stay with a bad one. We NEED vets....and we need to be a partner with our vets in the care of our pets. Thanks for your efforts on the behalf of pet owners. It is appreciated very much!

arriss February 8th, 2009 09:09:23 AM

Dr K, you put an incredible amount of time and energy into your blog and your efforts are clearly appreciated by many, many people. It seems to me that you don't enjoy dealing with repeated vet-bashers - but it also seems likely that they'll continue to post... and it's really important that you continue to enjoy your blog or you'll stop doing it, which will be in nobody's interest.

Could you have some sort of stated policy for dealing with them? Like three negative posts, then they'll have comments deleted? Or will this alienate some folk? Does it matter if you lose the 5% that you don't enjoy dealing with/

At the same time, I think that we in the the veterinary profession needs to be honest about ourselves too, which can be painful. It's easy to say that we're just like the rest of humanity: mostly good with a small percentage of "bad eggs". But perhaps the quotation from Francois De La Rochefoucauld may also be accurate: "Our enemies come nearer the truth in the opinions they form of us than we do in our opinion of ourselves." Which may suggest that it's worth listening carefully to what enemies are saying.

How many veterinarians have you met who may have been doing it for too long, and have become a little burnt out? Who have stopped getting a buzz from their daily work? Who may now be motivated by trying to earn a living as much as (or more than) the more honourable ambition of helping their patients?

You may not want to blog about this sort of stuff, but maybe some people need to find an outlet to express negative emotions about vets, and you could be providing a good service by acting as an informed and impartial commentator. Perhaps as someone has suggested if you have a regular vet bash blog, and get folk to focus their anti-vet comments to that day only... you could even delegate that day of responding to comments to someone else, to give yourself a little peace.

Keep up your good work.

pete the vet February 8th, 2009 10:02:52 AM

I'm with Megan and Ramen C et al on this. I'm here because I want to become more knowledgable. I don't have any major beef with my vet, and I'm not interested in non-topic specific vet-bashing. I'm sorry for anyone's loss of a pet due to a bad vet. Some of the stories are horrific. But I've heard your stories, I've read your web sites, please, please be respectful that most of us don't want to be bombarded by your tragedy when we are discussing an unrelated topic. Dr. K is not responsible for the loss of your pet nor is she obligated to give you unfettered space to continually rant. So please, give it a rest.

2CatMom February 8th, 2009 10:40:23 AM

Here is where most of the reader's are missing something. "We" the dissenters, as I think we are viewed, LOVE our pets, have had multiple pets for years! Please look at "My Photos" tab on http://walnut-hill.bravehost.com.

I am the person that in 1999, had a web site called "Mack's Story" about diagnosis and successful treatment of Transitional Cell Carcinoma, in which I met MANY people I did not know country/worldwide with dogs afflicted. I spent countless hours corresponding on any level they asked, mostly for moral support and ultimately grieving. The story was published in the STB & EA handbook (GB).

In the early 90's, prior to breed club popularity, I formed the official STCNE Rescue program and ran it singlehandedly---all before COMPUTER, this means phone & mail.

On this blog, I have posted HUGE successful, compassionate, ethical treatment of various pets: TCC, spinal surgery, glaucoma treatment, C-sections, to mention a few.

To fathom what happened to my precious pet, would have NEVER occured to ME or anyone else in 30+ YEARS. But guess what, if it happened to ME, it can happen to YOU.

I post when appropriate or in response to another comment. You do not see me respond on the food topics, or willy nilly everywhere for the sake of it. I am sorry that many of you find it OFFENSIVE, truth can be often not pretty.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 8th, 2009 10:42:00 AM

Fotini, your completely off the wall "Finally, German lawns are green and beautiful, but pesticides are illegal in Germany. I saw Germans down on their knees pulling weeds--it was hard work, but they didn't care because they wanted a lawn free of weeds!" is a great example of the kind of thing that just....makes many of us shake our heads in wonder as to 'what were you thinking?' It has no relevence to anything that I can see, although I'm sure you meant it to. And your comment "I am sure the majority of HAPPY guardians do not search for veterinary websites and blogs because they don't have a reason to!" I think that happy owners probably do come to this site and may not return after reading comments that make them wonder what's going on here. It sometimes doesn't seem to be about exchanging information - even warning about bad vets, which I do think is important - but about listening to off topic rants.

Barbara, your pats on the back about your good work with dogs with medical conditions and running a rescue group, are well and fine (we know it's hard, often thankless work), but why don't you do your own blog about how you help/have helped dogs and have a link to it from here. I'm sure it would be helpful and interessting. What I, and many others find...maybe annoying is the word I have to use, although I'd like to find something less negative, is the way you sound. That you would say ""We" the dissenters, as I think we are viewed, LOVE our pets, have had multiple pets for years!" as if that gives you the right to yell about how vets have done bad things. Well, the rest of us LOVE our pets too, and whether we've had bad experiences with vets or not, we don't ALWAYS bring it up. It's not that you shouldn't ever talk about it, but please, maybe a pet loss forum would have more people you could share this with who could help you. I realize you feel that you are trying to help others, and I did learn something from your website (thank you for having a link), but it's your tone that bothers more than the point you are trying to make.

Stefani, I am glad you post, as your tone is different about your loss, it's just that sometimes your information is a lot more than what relates to the topic, and while helpful, maybe it could be more precisely targeted.

Lis, if vets and vet tech (and other staff) seem to be saying "it's the fault of the pet owner for not having questioned the obvious error, or for not taking to the more expensive vet" I think they are providing equally valuable points, just like the anti-vet people say they are trying to do. Consumers of all products and services need to be more sensible and educate themselves about the qualities and services of anything they purchase. This applies to washers/dryers, computer harware/software, food/drink, their own human doctors and their pet's doctors. Suggesting that owners/clients/pet guardians ask questions if they are unsure, or yes, saying WHY DIDN'T they ask, may come across as 'blaming the owner' but most often it really is trying to get people to think of what they should do/should have done, so that next time they have a more educated and hopefully satisfactory outcome.

KateH February 8th, 2009 11:34:29 AM

WOW...I knew this was a touchy subject but had no idea it would occasion as many strongly held dissenting voices--in both directions.

First: I do feel tremendous compassion for all of you who have lost a pet needlessly. I do believe your message is important--no, critical--to presenting what happens in the real world of veterinary medicine. If I did not feel compassion, didn't value your viewpoint and wanted single-mindedly to raise the opinion of everyone everywhere on the wonderful exploits of the almighty veterinarian, I would have deleted your comments long ago and never looked back.

Instead, I'm engaging you...and your critics. I want all of us to find a way to dialogue with one another in a constructive manner. I don't want to have to lay down explicit rules, because they shouldn't be necessary if we're all looking out for one another. It's a small enough community here that simple civic-minded reminders to play nice should be more than enough to allow us all to get along.

If the goal is to "infotain" and enlighten, shouldn't we all want Dolittler to prosper? Isn't the fact that at least one veterinary site takes your concerns very seriously enough for you to want to help it survive?

Sure, ear mites might not have been the best example. It seems no saw the bolded, all-caps death-message I deleted. (OK, I admit, I do delete horrific hate mail and spam.) For the record, it wasn't a regular reader...but it didn't exactly help your case. Call it the straw that broke the camel's back.

Perhaps it's simply a sign that things will have to change a bit now that Dolittler's getting big enough to get occasional hate mail and regular spammage. But I do trust you all enough to ask you to help me keep Dolittler as open and comfortable as possible, even if it does start to get get a little too big for its britches.

And thanks for reading....I should probably have said that first. I really do appreciate your presence here.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 8th, 2009 11:43:49 AM

As a lurker and very occasional poster, I find Dr. K's blog incredibly informative AND well rounded. It is the only blog I come to on a daily basis. Personally, I love my vet, have the utmost respect for her profession and skills and trust her with the life of my beloved dog, Sophie. I'm sorry that's not the case for all of us who love our pets. I would hate to see Dr. K. lose her passion for this blog because of the constant negativity of some of you. For the sake of the rest of us who do respect and enjoy Dr. K. and her blog, put a sock in it from time to time, eh. Not always - just from time to time.

Diana Phillips February 8th, 2009 11:51:39 AM

KateH:

The statement about Germany is factual. . . “German lawns are green and beautiful, but pesticides are illegal in Germany. I saw Germans down on their knees pulling weeds--it was hard work, but they didn't care because they wanted a lawn free of weeds!"

Sorry you missed the metaphor. Substitute companion guardians for Germans and bad vets for weeds. Hopefully that will clear up where I was going with the expression. And, add emphasis to the fact that I believe our goal in all these discussions is to improve the quality of vet services by providing some oversight and perhaps motivate those caring vets like Dr Khuly to continue to promote more self-policing of vets by vets.

From May 2008 to January 2009, I paid $3,880.56 in vet bills in an effort to diagnose one of my three companions GI tract problem. So far, no concrete diagnosis. As you can see, not only I care about my companions but I am willing to pay any amount of money to have my companion diagnosed correctly and treated. My first companion's unfortunate and horrible death has taught me a lot of valuable lessons, especially how to approach veterinarians, their diagnoses, testing, and treating methods! I finally took my companion to a vetinary teaching hospital, a 4 1/2-hour drive! But I don't mind the long drive because she is in an academic professional's hands.

Bitter truth: we all live in a world of greed and deception.

Fotini February 8th, 2009 12:46:09 PM

I think what we're trying to say to the 'dissenters' - when your particular situation is directly relevant to the topic being posted - go ahead and talk about it. There are new people joining all the time and your informaiton is important. But when its not relevant - let's say we're talking about vaccines - and your pet died from too much anesthesia - it isn't relevant to the topic. When we're talking about about the dangers of anesthesia - yes - come on in. But when its something else, regardless if we're talking about vets - its not appropriate to tell us all about your pet dying from too much anesthesia. It would be like my participating on a topic about dogs... and I chime in with "why bother, cats are better than dogs". Hey it may be true (at least in my warped corner of the universe) and I may feel passionate about it (I don't actually) but its just not appropriate. Really, this is just common sense and common courtesy.

2CatMom February 8th, 2009 12:47:32 PM

KateH: I am not a jounalist, have spelling & grammar issues, when I receive a general comment,(such as tone) it is not helpful. I do not have ability to italic or bold responses...that is where quotes and capitals come in.

Everyone has the ability to read the feed, not peruse comments. And skip those they want.

Please do not insult me that I "need a pet-loss" group. I have been through many pet-losses in my life. And I have illustrated that "I" have been a supportive individual for OTHER people's losses, whether contacted via the rescue program or the TCC web site (that I will correct and it was online in '96). Forgot to mention my long time membership of epi-guardians email group, a wonderful and knowledgable bunch, including 3 very generous veterinarians that participated regularly, who I am forever grateful to.

And if we get down to brass tacks, isn't what bothers people the most, my lack of fear & intimidation to use real names, real examples, real and brutal descriptions? Sorry, I can't make it palatible? People want me to go away & be silenced? Not one reader was curious as to what "double records are" and how this could mean something about their pet's care?

To the commenters: General statements are not helpful, I am guilty of making them too, you can all send me anything you wish walnuthl@gsinet.net, I promise I can not bite via computer.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 8th, 2009 12:50:16 PM

Dr., thanks for your post. I promised myself to go Dolittler cold turkey but I saw your post and couldn't help but say "thanks."

I did feel that things (ok, I) got a little out of control this week with some back and forth posting that probably would have been better as a private message, if there was a way to do that (idea for future enhancement). Usually, it starts off topic related but -- like with the issue of problems obtaining your pets records -- there may be very important things related to the topic worth bringing up that have to do with issues in veterinary quality. In the future, if I feel there is something I want to say on a topic that is going to then veer off into a further explication of a related issue in terms of problems of that nature, I will indicate this, and then I will post the rest of what I wish to say HERE in this thread with a link to this thread. Fair?

And thanks again for your democratic impulses. It's a good sign. No desire to ruin a good thing, truly. Out of deference to both you, AND my own vet and her clinic, who like I said, I really like. She's a good egg. Like you, and Dr. Robb, and one other vet in the United States of America.

:) Just kidding.

Stefani February 8th, 2009 01:22:55 PM

When I first read this blog, my reaction was: OK, what happened that I missed? So I read back through about the last week of blog and comments and kept thinking what a relativelywell behaved group but I think a couple of things disappeared or I just imagined them. Hey, I've moderated quite a few email groups over the last decade so I know there need to be some basics in place. I approve. So, now we know: "bolded, all-caps death-message". Yeah, think we missed it; know I did!

Dr. K, you're incredibly good at keeping a level tone going but fatigue and those kinds of messages get to everyone. Any chance you can recruit someone to deal with that initial moderating and make the crap disappear and note if something maybe needs more than that? I've tried it all but most of the options you have as a moderator will simply suck up more of your time as some will try to do just that. Set your rules, post them prominently, don't give warnings (they encourage the flaming response that ends with "let the banishments begin"), just enforce the rules you set and don't look back. You speak to a broad audience and your purpose is stated on here :) I think you're quite generous to offer 1/12th of your blog to a single topic.

Many of us do have a tendency to stray off topic and a little becomes a lot. Perhaps it would help to make the last line in your blog posting something like: Today's topic for comment and discussion is: ???. When you've ended with something similar or a question, people seem to stay closer to the topic. So there's my final 50 cents worth.

PJBoosinger February 8th, 2009 01:34:09 PM

Oh boy, I am going to write a 180 here. If my "presence" should cause a real or perceived "threat", my opinions or comments are not important enough to post. The information is about prevention, not "adding" to the tragedy I experienced. If so, please do inform me. Nobody should have to go through life frightened.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 8th, 2009 02:04:49 PM

Don't become to obssessed with message control Doc. Stay focused on your unique contribution which has been the foundation of your blog. Which is you invite people to get into your "mind".

If they can't deal with that we'll they are missing the entire point.

Evet February 8th, 2009 02:37:03 PM

Folks, this is what I don't understand. Those of us seen as "vet bashers" are not vet bashers at all. We have stated that a number of times, and we are still seen as vet bashers. I, for one, haven't even explained the details of my pet's wrongful death on this blog because I don't see a point in it. I am not looking for affirmation; I am not looking to "hang" the vet. What we want is awareness of the SYSTEMIC problem and constructive work towards solving it. We agree that our input should be presented within appropriate context and in an acceptable form. We do not deserve to be insulted or told "I like and trust my vet," so shut up. The fact that many of you respect and like your vets is fabulous. We are happy for you, and it is not our goal to "bash" your vet or to force you to change your mind about your vet. Many of us actually also like and respect our vets (I do). One of you said she didn't like her vet, so she went to a different one. She was lucky to have a pet to take to a different vet. Some of us weren't as lucky, and that's why we are hoping to impart our knowledge to help others. I would think our efforts should be valued. We have evidence, which some of you may not, that our pets are not as safe at the vet's as they could be had the SYSTEMIC problems been addressed effectively. We are trying to work to improve everyone's pet safety, increase accountability for all vets, and avail pet owners of recourse in those UNFORTUNATE CASES, WHERE THINGS GO WRONG. Vet bashing is not our goal. We have evidence that things do sometimes go wrong, with tragic results, and it could happen at any time to anyone. Do you not believe us? Do you not care? Do you not want adequate protection for your pet and yourselves? We would like to improve the situation for everyone's benefit, not just our own. Thank you for your consideration. The questions are rhetorical, by the way.

Natalie Kramer February 8th, 2009 03:39:31 PM

I've just found this blog and already think it's great. I have to admit that I have more knitting blogs than dog but pet blogs are a close second. After reading some of the archives and then the post from 2/7 I realize how fortunate I am to have a wonderful vet practice that I've trusted with my fur kids for the past 25 years. It's a little drive but well worth it. I have never had a complaint however it is distressing to see others that are not as fortunate. The four vets in the practice my dog frequents are all warm compassionate people. I only avoid one of them because Sid my dog doesn't like him and has voiced this opinion by twice biting him. These vets have treated animals both wild and domestic that I've rescued over the years at a very reduced rate. Even though I live in a rural area I am fortunate to have a 4 person practice with 24/7 emergency service. I don't know what I would do if I only had a choice of one vet practice and had a bad experience- guess I would keep driving until I found a vet that I was comfortable with. It's the same on the people end of health care- many times I hear horror stories about medical practices and doctors who don't listen and I encourage people to find a new physician. I am also reminded that vetrinary medicine like human medicine is both a science and an art practiced by human beings who will and do make mistakes. I think the vet who is up front about making a mistake and will tell you how their practice has changed as a result of it certainly deserves a second chance if everything else about the practice is satisfactory. Dr. K. I don't know how you control the rants or just allow folks to ventilate and know that getting your message(s) through to us helps make us better caregivers for our pets.

Rynn February 8th, 2009 03:59:02 PM

I used to read and post here regularly but was turned off by the continuous "vet-bashing" in almost every post. Thank you for this post. It needed to be said. Although, in the begining, I enjoyed reading and posting here, eventually it became disheartening to read all the rails against my proffesion. I love my job. I am proud of what I do. I look forward to going to work everyday. And I certainly don't do this for the money. Despite efforts not to, I took all those negative posts personally. I hope the couple of posters responsible for most of the negativity respect your wishes and return this blog to waht it is intended to be. An open friendly dialogue between the vet community and pet owners (who ALL love their pets).

Meghan RAHT February 8th, 2009 04:26:48 PM

Natalie: We believe you. The point is we would like to not be bombarded with personal experiences with vets, tragic though they might be, when its not relevant to the topic being discussed. The fact that a select few of you don't get it, and keep posting how important your information is (regardless of topic) leads me to conclude that for some of you this has become an unhealthy obsession. Some of you remind me of my long gone great aunt. No matter what topic the family would talk about we would invariably end up listening to her talk about her varicose veins. Were they bad, yep. Was she entitled to say they bothered her, yep. But there's a time and place for everything. And your grand-nieces birthday party is not the time or the place. Nor is someone's funeral. And no, we don't want to sit at Thanksgiving and hear about them. Ditto for your hemroids. So when we're talking about something that has NOTHING TO DO with the tragic death of your pet, such as where your pet likes to be tickled...its OK to say, my deceased dog Bob liked to be ticked on his tummy. It is not appropriate for you to them you that as a jumping off point to once again tell us the whole story surrounding his death. Maybe its time to be a little less polite: if you can't contribute to the discussion topic of tickling your pet, then STFU!

2CatMom February 8th, 2009 04:45:46 PM

Dr K -

THANK YOU for your blog....it is the only one that I read.....I thought I was a busy person but now I am ashamed and humbled in your presence!!! I love that daily you can raise topics that can offer a variety of comments. I for one like to hear all sides and feel that the broader perspective gives me a more forcused opinion. However, I don't like to hear the same things retold again, The horse is dead....quit beating it......

But I digress. I find your intelligent and witty style of writing is engaging and entertaining to read. After a long day at work I find time to still see what you have posted on in the hopes that I can learn something or gain some insight.

So keep up the good work - and take some time off, you know a minute or two!!!!

J.C. February 8th, 2009 05:03:06 PM

I'm a regular reader, first time commenter. FWIW, I stopped reading the comments on your blog entirely because they're so dominated by the same three or four blow-hards all the time. Folks, if you wonder whether you're talking too much, you can assume that you are. If you're wondering whether I might be referring to you, it's likely that I am.

Mary-Jo February 8th, 2009 05:52:50 PM

Perfection, whether of the stripe sought by a vet such as Patty or experienced pet parents and others is within each of us. It's unhip, unscientific, archaic, politically incorrect and guaranteed to hurt. But it's the truth.

I've never failed to find some tiny clue, signifigant answer, or an inspiration I was seeking while reading Dr. Khuly's musings.

So on that ♪ I think I'm going to have a pizza.

☺

Evet February 8th, 2009 05:54:34 PM

2CatMom, I agree. It might be a good idea to entrust someone with some moderating (possibly taking turns?). I think some blogs have something like that. If someone brings up something irrelevant on a string, regardless of the topic, have that person be reminded that this is not the place or the time. BTW, I have three cats:) And I am a dog person. I also love Dogster and Catster, and I think they are a lot of fun. They also have forums and blogs on different issues and I found them great for things like info on foods, cat trees, certain health issues. I actually take my guys to a vet, who has her own blog for non-emergency health issues just for her patients, which is really convenient. That's why I haven't had the need to go to other blogs for purely medical information. But Dogster and Catster are great; I love checking in and recommend it to others.

Natalie Kramer February 8th, 2009 05:55:59 PM

Thanks Dr. K for this post. Hopefully this will at least make people think about what they are saying and maybe stay on topic more. There are some GREAT Vets out there that do wonderful things, so how about a post or two featuring some of them. Here is a Great vet in Oregon, Dr. Arlene Brooks ( she is not my Vet )but I would be very honoured to have her as my vet. http://www.lastchanceclub.org/cases.asp

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia February 8th, 2009 06:03:09 PM

dr. k, i love your writing style. the posts are interesting, informative. and easy to understand (i am NOT good at medical terminology). some posts are about things i never knew existed while some hit very close to home. you have given me lots of insight of what goes on behind the scenes at a vet office. thank you for all of the time and effort you have put into your blog.

momsbusy February 8th, 2009 08:10:44 PM

Hang in there Dr K and stay the course. After this blog I think some folks may get your point. I kinda like the dissent though, keeps this honest, as long as folks can disagree agreeably. Maybe we can remember to listen to the other point of view instead of just defending ours. We all bring a different point of view to the forum. FWIW There is an old saying if a person is guilty of a crime, if the judge does not punish him, someone else will (usually his lawyer $). Not a great analogy but the only one I could think of, but anyway: Those of you that have created websites dedicated to exposing the Vets that harmed your pets, you may find comfort in that even though the state boards may not have punished them, but I guarantee that they have sufferred significant mental anguish as a result of having to go thru the complaint process and knowing that your website is out there. Good ulcer material. They did not get off completely scott free and just maybe they will learn from their mistakes be more concientous and do better. Very few people are not redeemable. This was probably a life changing episode for them too, we have all had those in some form or another, lets hope they respond positively.

Hobson February 8th, 2009 08:15:43 PM

I normally am a lurker, but I wanted to post to say that I think Dr. Khuly has always been very patient with those who tend to be extra suspicious of veterinarians (and some do have good reason). I think it's a good compromise to have a more anti-vet post every two weeks so the discussion on other posts stays more on topic. It's important for people to be aware that they're are unethical vets out there, but we don't need to hear about it on every other post. Besides, the vast majority of vets are good, hard-working people who are in the profession for the love of animals and not for the money.

-Beth

Beth M. February 8th, 2009 08:30:54 PM

I like the suggestion of featuring vets who are doing wonderful things, too, and I'd suggest Dr. Brian Forsgren (and Dr. Bob, and the other vets there). Dr. Brian (who isn't my vet - no of them are), founded Project Noah, to help animals and their people in cases were they 'might fall through the cracks' for lack of funds. Unfortunately, I don't know if Dr. K. would have issues with these types of 'spotlights' on other vets. While I (and most of the people who go/have gone there, have had good experiences there (Dr. Bob and the staff was wonderful with a HBC dog I brought there recently), there are always a few people for whom things didn't go right (for all sorts of reasons), and they might turn it into a Yelp-like review space that could get out of control. However, if a 'spotlight' thing could be moderated.....well, I'd like to hear about vets doing good all over the country. This might help people find new vets when they have to move, as was discussed in a recent post.

KateH February 8th, 2009 08:39:17 PM

uh, I forgot to say Dr. Brian is in Cleveland, at Gateway Animal Clinic. They don't have a website, though.

KateH February 8th, 2009 08:42:14 PM

Hobson, You're a good egg, I wish you were in my state.

So far, the posts that have garnered the most comments are the "controversial" ones, it is obvious to me, that no matter what some say, our comments are read & taken seriously, perhaps more so , by other good eggs.

When comments become namecalling ('ho) and non-specifics, "I don't want to be in your sandbox and don't want you in mine" or something of that nature, it speaks for the maturity of the commenters.

I'm also sorry that tolerance for "foreign" presentation is at a low, people from other countries cannot always easily translate.

Some one very kind and wise has said to me (not verbatim): "Elderly, children, and animals need advocates for protection; they are the three living segments unable to fend for themselves. All of us have those 3 segments in our lives.

I'm proud of who I am and what I do. I am going to voluntarily "put myself in the corner" and hopefully the anonymous "nasty grams" will go away. Barbara A. Albright/ NH advocate for ethical & compassionate veterinary care

Pocket's Story from NH February 8th, 2009 09:18:26 PM

To Lis - probably part of it is because I typically read this blog right after a long shift during which I or my coworkers are frequently unfairly blamed for a pet's ongoing medical issues. As in, Fluffy rips out her sutures and now owner is pissed b/c we charged for the sedation and suture necessary to repair the problem...even though we expressly recommended an e-collar. Or the long-time client who blamed his dog's newly diagnosed heartworm-positive status on the receptionist who "forgets to ask him if he needs more pills when he comes in" (it made her cry!). Or the owner who keeps text messaging on her cell phone while I'm trying to demonstrate proper instillation of ear medication, and then accuses us of trying to rip her off when the ear meds (which, after otoscopic examination are clearly not getting into the ear) "fail" to work. It gets demoralizing. Having said that, I adore at least half of our regular clientele, and find another quarter tolerable. I imagine most of the posters here would fall into the first category of polite, well-meaning, pleasant pet owners. I'll try do not let my work frustration leak into my posts. :)

anna February 8th, 2009 09:24:32 PM

anna, 2 suggestions (I know this is off topic :) ) I make them sign off on refusing an e-collar (part of consent form) I have a sign asking folks to turn off their cell phones, if a client gets on their cell phone I leave the room and find something else to do until after they are finished. This is one time I wish I could charge by the minute.

Hobson February 8th, 2009 09:32:34 PM

Dr K-

I've been following your blog with interest for a month or so now as a great example of how good a vet blog can be. The comments, and how you choose to use them, are a real eye opener. On the one hand, I think it's great how free and un-moderated you are. I know people really appreciate that.

On the other hand it is difficult, when you hope that the comments are a discussion of the topic of your post, and it consistently gets de-railed. It seems that most of the regulars on here are involved and interested in discussion, but I guess when give the open invitation for "anything goes" there will always be some who come, not because they want to contribute to the discussion at hand, but because it is the only place they are still welcome to come and address whatever agenda it is they have. (Not directed at anyone in particular.)

While I understand and empathize with those who have had bad experiences at the hands of a vet, I'm not *entirely* sure what place that has here other than venting, which can be helpful in and of itself. I learn from my mistakes and from others' as well, but unless the experience is directly related to the topic it can be disheartening, both as a vet and just as a blog reader, to wade through that. I strongly disagree with the commenter who said people only seek out this kind of site as the result of a bad experience. In contrast the blogs I have enjoyed the most and gotten the most out of are those with positive contributions and ideas- for example bringing a shower mat or yoga mat for the exam room tables.

Whatever you decide, I admire your dedication to this blog, and to allowing your readers to participate in whatever manner they find most meaningful.

pawcurious February 8th, 2009 10:07:30 PM

I hear what your saying in this post. I have read some great posts that I would love to comment on but as I read through the comments I feel like what I wanted to say no longer applied. That being said, I, like you, feel that this is a wonderful forum for critics and fans alike and I like hearing all sides. I also like that your comments are sprinkled throughout. I think your plea is well heard and well founded. No veterinarian, especially a particularly busy and multitalented vet as yourself needs to be bogged down in a labor that you love (that really has to be a disappointing to see a comment thread taken in a unintended and unhelpful direction).

I really enjoy your reading your blog and sometimes I need to ration it out to myself during the week lest I neglect my other duties! I have been so impressed that you write EVERY day. I'm a once a week blogger at best. Honestly if you wanted to cut down you may actually help me - I wouldn't have so much to catch up on when I let myself come back and binge!

Thank you for the excellent content, generous discussion and for sharing your views from the inside.

Dr. Kristin Sulis February 9th, 2009 01:22:41 AM

You might also not see the heavily off topic posted because they were, as Dr Khuly stated, "moderated".

emily February 9th, 2009 09:01:44 AM

Dr. K keep up the good work and for myself I do not mind the wandering comments, I just skip them.

Regenia February 9th, 2009 09:32:39 AM

Perhaps a solution would be to implement a 'slashdot style' comment moderation system where the users themselves vote a comment good or bad. There's generally a threshold where low rated comments don't even show up anymore.

You would be saved the pain (and time!) of having to 'play god' and decide whether someone was being constructive or not, and readers would be saved having to read comments that are not relevant over and over again.

Unfortunately, there is a technical overhead - but I think there are 'drop-in' systems with that functionality so you wouldn't have to hand-roll it.

Some people need to face the reality that regardless of pure intentions, if people don't want to hear what you're saying, it's spam. Whether it's about selling timeshares, saving the whales, or varicose veins. (loved that analogy 2CatMom).

Hang in there Dr. K

puppynerd February 9th, 2009 09:52:54 AM

Hang in there Dr. K...and keep up the very good work. I don't read/post comments anymore because of the constant bashing and/or self-centered comments. I think they contribute negatively to the overall environment you've created here. Dissent and a contrarty opinion are always good, but often times it seems to get carried to another level. I'm going to go back and read through comments a bit but like I said, I just stick to reading your articles and not posting/reading comments anymore so I'm not sure what spurred this post. I feel your posts do a good job of presenting a balanced case, so I leave it at that. Horror stories don't always educate, but simply cause paranoia or anxiety and I do just fine in that department on my own. ;) I do wish people thought a bit more about the intention behind this blog, each article and the tone of their posts. Is a cordial reply (even if contrarty) too much to ask?

CreatureofHabit February 9th, 2009 11:43:37 AM

Dr. K., I too am a lurker and have read this blog for about 2 years! I love it. I've been around long enough to know when I can skip a comment and can sometimes tell who wrote it before I see the name! Just a note: I love my vet, have 3 rescues and I come here for the great information and hopefully learn something. There has been times that has been a little difficult but still always worth the read. THANKS DR. K!

Nashvillepup February 9th, 2009 12:20:01 PM

Well, how's this for my first reply in the many of posts I've read. I work in the vet community and totally understand how you feel about all this. I love your posts because you have such a broad range of ideas and are willing to accept a huge range of topics and cover the bases that are needed. I come here daily to see what vet world in the US is like, I must say, we have moments where we are quite similar. I see it as coming down to the fact that people just don't view animals as being important, they don't want to spend the money but want to think the vet should be god and do no wrong, no harm, and things should always come out like roses. The fact is that doesn't happen. I would love to have all those who fail to see what a challenge vet care is to live in our shoes for just a week. It would be shocking to see the change that would come over them once they really see that vets aren't money hungry, they struggle to balance family, business, plus keeping up to date on the medicine they need to practice. I think vets are super. I hate people who don't see their value. Keep up the good work, you are appreciated. Just focus on those who love you and let those who hate roll off your back.

Kathy February 9th, 2009 12:20:26 PM

I'm a reader and very occasional poster(whoever last year recommended Patricia McConnell-thank you!), but I have been finding myself skipping the comments lately because they do tend to head right down the same old evil vet path. I come here for information on how to better take care of my pets(and to hear about the goats-hint, hint)and its a great resource for me.

So keep up the good work Dr. K!!!!

rheather February 9th, 2009 12:31:09 PM

Kathy, when you say:

"I see it as coming down to the fact that people just don't view animals as being important, they don't want to spend the money but want to think the vet should be god and do no wrong, no harm, and things should always come out like roses . . . "

I KNOW you can't possibly be referring to those of us who tend to make critical posts here on Dolittler. I am well acquainted with Barbara, Fotini, Natalie, and Greg (albeit, long distance) and they are NOT the kinds of clients you are describing -- people who don't want to pay for their pets, expect vets to work for free, etc. We all consider our pets family, seriously. In most years, my expenditures on veterinary care are my largest "discretionary" expense (it's not really discretionary tho!) Certainly it almost always exceeds what I pay out of pocket from my take home pay for my own health.

I DO understand that you guys deal with those people on a daily basis -- people who hand you a very sick but treatable animal, and tell you to make them well, for $20. Those people break my heart, too. But those of us who are "regular" critics of vets here, airing our horror stories and those of others, do NOT fall into that category, I promise you.

As for knowing the VALUE of a vet -- there is NOTHING LIKE a horrific experience with a malpractitioner to make you realize the value of a GOOD vet. Trust me, I think they are precious as gold. The only difference is, I also believe they are perhaps the exception, rather than the rule.

Stefani February 9th, 2009 01:41:03 PM

Dr. Khuly, This is a "record-breaker", since I have been a subscriber! I think the only 2nd was the spay topic with 80 some odd.

Stef, It appears as though the majority, either don't read the comments at all, or skip ours, so what the heck is the hoopla? I was going to put myself in the corner, unecessarily.

And a couple of veterinarians, have stated interest "in our other side", so we aren't offending them, again no hoopla.

However, a "crank" nasty comment placed by an anonymous "low-life", is inexcusable by anyone's standards. We all have contact info, why take it out on a public forum? Send us your nasty grams direct!

And before any commenter talks about redundant, take a look at your own. And that goes for straying "off topic", which lots of "you" do too!

Barbara A. Albright Chester, NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 9th, 2009 05:57:55 PM

I'm a long-time reader/lurker who just has to shout a giant "THANK YOU" to Dr. Khuly for finally bringing this to a head. I've been so completely turned off by the comments to all the postings on this blog which are dominated by the same 2 or 3 people (Stefani and Barbara, for the most part) who keep endlessly. repeating. the. same. stories that I took a break for a while. It's no fun to read through something that has you screaming, "Shut UP! Shut UP! For God's sake, we've HEARD THIS BEFORE and it has NOTHING to do with what's being discussed!" at your computer screen as your right hand turns into an angry, rigid claw around the mouse. I happen to adore my veterinarians (it's a group practice where I can truly say that all 4 doctors are equally skilled and compassionate). Am I aware that things can go badly, that mistakes can be made, and that some human beings in the world either aren't very nice or just plain suck? YES. I am. And I don't need to be reminded EVERY FREAKIN' DAY that some vets are negligent/mean/greedy/evil. That's true of all people, not just veterinarians. Please, find another (more appropriate) platform to advocate for your "cause," or just ask yourself before you post, "Is this on-topic, or am I just flogging my usual vets-are-evil, my-poor-pet-died agenda?" And I don't particularly care whether or not that's your INTENDED agenda. That's how it's perceived, ladies, by more than a few of us. Perception trumps intention in this case. The comments section of this blog belongs to more than just the two of you and your issues/baggage.

PugMom February 9th, 2009 06:31:21 PM

Is anyone stopping you from your comments PugMom? Is someone "forcing" you to read any comments? I don't think so, especially since they no longer come in email fashion.And I was really feeling bad, that is, until, I started reading some of the childish replies. Says more about others, than us.

And where on earth, do my posts of excellent superb spinal surgery, glaucoma diagnosis & treatment, wonderful emergency care of pancreatitis, mid-nite C-sections, gracious & compassionate care and euthanasia (of recent 4/08) come under "all vets are EVIL"? Or are those not juicy enough to hone in and remember?

(Just trying to get to 100)You people are "barking up the wrong tree"

I thought this might be entertaining from Canada http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2007/11/28/cat_got_your_wallet/

holy mackeral, those Canadians can be pretty brutal vet-bashers. The posters USE real names & it is about a mile long, if you have the time.

Barbara A. Albright/Chester, NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 9th, 2009 06:50:33 PM

Pugmom:

"your right hand turns into an angry, rigid claw around the mouse."

Wow, get some drugs for that girlfriend. That's got nothing to do with us, that's all about you.

Stefani February 9th, 2009 07:02:50 PM

ding, ding, ding! This is no joke, you are the 100# poster and click here (x) to claim your prize, Stefani!

You now get 3 free posts about Toonces anywhere you choose.

Pocket's Story from NH February 9th, 2009 07:28:57 PM

"Wow, get some drugs for that girlfriend. That's got nothing to do with us, that's all about you." "ding, ding, ding! This is no joke, you are the 100# poster and click here (x) to claim your prize, Stefani! You now get 3 free posts about Toonces anywhere you choose. " And those two comments are not childish how?? "And I was really feeling bad, that is, until, I started reading some of the childish replies."

rollseyes February 9th, 2009 07:51:46 PM

This has deteriorated into what reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live parody of point-counterpoint as in Dan Ackroyd's famous lead in: "Jane you ignorant slut" Poor Dr K has seen her creation morph into something ugly. Can't we present our own points of view civily without resorting to sarcasm, hate and personal attacks?

Hobson February 9th, 2009 09:55:51 PM

Frankly, it's not the repetitive nature of some of the posts that necessarily gets to me, or the fact that they're OT. It's the tone. If somebody broaches the subject of malpractice in a civil and rational manner when the topic at hand is something completely unrelated (like ear mites), I'll usually just ignore it. Whatever, not a big deal. I'm sure there are probably plenty of people skimming my posts too.

When these posts degenerate into angry diatribes, scathing generalities about the entire profession, or someone feels the need to post links to anti-vet flame wars they're engaging in off-site (I'm not talking about the personal websites, I'm referring to incidents like the mess on some review website that was linked to a week or so ago).. when people are directing hostile, sarcastic responses at the guest vets who've been kind enough to post here.. that's when it becomes a problem for me. That kind of negativity doesn't benefit anyone. It doesn't help your (and I'm talking 'your' in the general sense, not directed at anyone in particular) cause, and ultimately, it casts a negative light on this place.

I think there's a big difference between posting the occasional cautionary tale and engaging in regular off-the-handle rants. I don't mind the occasional reminder that not all vets are created equal. But some of the hostility just needs to go. There are appropriate venues for it. This is not one of them.

Ramen Connoisseur February 9th, 2009 10:03:32 PM

Dear blogers:

Once in a while someone has to stir the clear waters of the lake and see what floats to the surface--how else will we know what dirt there is in the bottom. . .

Asproolee’s Story

Fotini February 9th, 2009 10:50:03 PM

I HAVE THE SOLUTION!! But first, you must listen to my diatribe about....SUCKY BAD VETS! Still with me? OK - great! No diatribe here. Just trying to run off those who question the seriousness of the issues us "negative" posters present - even if it is redundant. God forbid that our experiences ever happen to you and your pet, as then you will find yourself truly in our shoes. OK. Dr. Khuly? See if this will work... The "Solution" - (Leave it to a guy to reference a sports blog to go to for your solution...LOL) DallasBasketball.com Yes, I am going to make you read the linked article for the solution - LOL - but only because it may give you other ideas as well if this solution is not palatable. Now, back to my "agenda." First, full disclosure about why I am here in the first place (not written here - but linked to for those who might care): In Memory of Stempy Munson - A Victim of a BAD Veterinarian Here is why I think this site is attractive for us "negative" posters. It is BECAUSE Dr. Khuly tolerates us in the first place. THANK YOU, Dr. Khuly. I know it has to wear on you to constantly hear us repeat our warnings. But, BLESS YOU for doing so. You are enabling voices that MUST be heard - EVEN if redundant and sometimes off-topic. It is MOST CERTAINLY not my agenda to BASH VETS at every open opportunity. In fact, BASHING VETS in general is not EVER my agenda. Now, BASHING ONE VET in particular? If stating the facts and circumstances of my beloved boy's demise on his own website is BASHING, then guilty as charged and proud of it. But, here's the rub. We KNOW that there are TONS of really good vets out there - Dr. Khuly being one of them. What is MOST discouraging is that most of these same really good vets LOOK THE OTHER WAY at the MANY bad apples in your own profession (I am not referring to you in particular, Dr. K, but perhaps many of your colleagues). Folks, if I could BOLD - ITALICIZE - AND ENLARGE the following statement, I would immediately do so: (Yes, I am screaming this) THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE VETERINARY PROFESSION. Not in the courts and MOST CERTAINLY not with the state regulatory bodies. There is no need for me to break out all the supporting evidence here - it's been done before - and the whole 'redundant' thing, sooooo..... If you truly care, you don't have to take my word for it. Do just a little bit of research for yourself. The facts are the facts. I will be redundant with the following statement (I believe it will be the third time I've mentioned it here) only because I don't think it has been taken to heart by the many veterinary professionals who read this blog: If the good vets will not really stand up for and fight for the integrity of their profession, then they are no better than the bad vets who are malpracticing our pets. (Again. not aimed at Dr. K in particular, but perhaps at some of the other veterinary professionals who may be perusing this blog.) Vet bashing? Nope. Thought provoking? Indeed. Now back to your regularly scheduled - comment section dominant - veterinary ego-stroking.... (just kidding!?!?)

Greg Munson February 10th, 2009 01:47:59 AM

Dr. Khuly, thanks so much for putting so much effort into this blog. It is excellent. I would find it so disheartening to work so hard (for free) for the pleasure of having my profession trashed by the same few people every day. I must admit that I skip reading most of the comments because they leave a bad taste in my mouth more often than not. It just sucks because your posts bring up some really interesting issues, but on-topic discussion gets drowned out or is suppressed altogether because potential commenters don't want to deal with the existing crowd.

cayugaduck February 10th, 2009 04:52:32 AM

I wish all of you who have never been victims of vets could live one week in our lives. You have no idea. No freaking idea of the level of destruction that takes place in the lives of those who trusted vets and who now dare to confront and challenge the status quo in a profession that enjoys almost universal immunity. The posts that seem to "annoy" you so much are mere shadows of what we live with, day in and day out. We are more than "annoyed." Our lives, our sense of balance, our work, finances, emotional well being, the ability to sleep, eat, or think; relationships with family, friends, the guy on the street. All destroyed or irrevocably harmed. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is ever the same again. I wish I had the luxury of sitting on some perch and treating vet victims as nothing more than a bad smell. How nice for you. Ten years ago my cat Suki was killed by not just a "bad" vet, but a vet SO inexcusably incompetent and negligent that when the SOB sued me for my web site, HE COULD NOT FIND ONE SINGLE VET ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH TO TESTIFY FOR HIM. Meanwhile, I got three expert reports from vets kind and BRAVE enough to write pages and pages of their conclusions for me. Conclusion: Innumerable breaches of the standard of care, too many to mention here. Needless to say, there was no trial. :-) Here's the punchline though, and those of you so indignant that we dare to question vets will get a big kick out of this: The vet board system in Texas DISMISSED all of the allegations. That's right, FreakVet got away with it. Every bit of it. So my life was gutted three times by this same walking waste of space: 1) when he did what he did to Suki in the first place, 2)when he weaseled his way out of ACCOUNTABILITY at the state board level, and 3) when he came at me with three lawyers to attempt to strip me of my First Amendment rights with a hideous lawsuit that lasted almost three years and took what was left of my life. As if #1 and #2 were not enough. So go ahead and bash those of us who have been through a circle of hell that is all new territory in the lexicon of hell. I get hate mail from vets that would make your toes curl - sick, threatening, truly disturbing emails that make me pray daily for the animals these "people" come in contact with. Read Suki's Story, www.vetabusenetwork.com/sukistory.html and tell me there isn't true evil in the world. I will never forget. And I will never be silenced.

Julie "Suki's Story from Texas" February 10th, 2009 08:14:21 AM

I think Ramen Connoisseur hit the nail on the head. For me it's about the hostility more than off-topic-ness, though the OT issue is important, too.

A personal example: My family was engaged in an international personal injury lawsuit when my uncle was killed by a foreign government. I believe the reason we prevailed in the courts and in collecting a judgement (almost unheard of in international terrorism cases) was because we knew who we could not alienate with our [undeniably well-deserved] hostility. You have no idea how difficult it is to stand in front of a politician who shares some responsibility for your loved one's death and hold your tongue--smile, even--because that's how you're going to get the job done.

Moral outrage can be conveyed far more effectively when it's appropriately timed, directed with laser accuracy and always serves your ultimate goal with minimal collateral damage. You can always thumb your nose at the politician later.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 10th, 2009 09:00:54 AM

One more thing: For those of you calling us "self-serving" and "obsessed." There isn't a single one of us doing what we do for ourselves. Our pets are dead, thanks to vet malpractice and the combined apathy of a system and a profession that for the most part, looks the other way. This is what I tell the Texas state board when I testify at their public meetings: "We do this for those who have not yet met the veterinarian who is going to change their lives forever."

Julie February 10th, 2009 09:03:11 AM

I think it is clear there are issues. But is alienating the very vets who are sympathetic productive? Perhaps a forum could be created *on this subject* which invites people in to be part of a well thought out advocacy or reform movement? Because if the current approach is not moving the issue forward, then will more and louder of the same be any more effective, or perhaps counterproductive? If you made such a forum with some basic rules of civility (i.e. moderating accepting personal insults, abuse and stereotyping) I would be happy to take part to the best of my ability no matter how hard the issues raised might be for the profession and organisation as a whole. I am not expert on the underlying issue but I do have a lot of information about how to get the best possible outcome from VMAs. (And on my own blogs anyone suggesting I needed to be medicated would be deleted without a moment's hesitation. Nor would I hang around long on someone's site if addressed that way).

emily February 10th, 2009 09:11:41 AM

Oh Dr. Khuly - I have EVERY idea what it is to stand in front of a court and *smile* while the vet's lawyers mocked and ridiculed my cat's suffering, her age, me, my work, my life, everything. I have EVERY idea what it is to stand in front of an "informal conference" committee in Austin while the vet lied and shifted blame to everything but global warming for what he did to my cat. I have EVERY idea what it is to *smile* as I dealt with the Texas Senate commission I testified to back in 2004 for changes to the system. I have EVERY idea what it is to *smile* at our state board meetings in Austin while listening to the most incompetent bunch of slapheads you can imagine talk about how they "protect" the public while pets are dying of malpractice and negligence every day. I have EVERY idea what it is to *smile* while being interviewed by TV reporters as to the travesty that goes on at the Texas vet board. I've done so much damn *smiling* my face hurts. And I will keep doing it for the rest of my life. And make no mistake - this job of cleaning up the system that protects veterinarians WILL get done.

Julie February 10th, 2009 09:13:36 AM

I completely agree.... it's the attacks (that seem to go both ways, IMHO) that are tiresome. I know that if my dog suffered the way many of your regular posters' pets suffered, I don't think I would be able to manage even the most basic of life necessities like getting out of bed, let alone do the research and form websites to get out the information. That kind of strength & dedication has my utmost respect, truly. I've learned a great deal from the insight of your regular commenters. The comments just seem to have gone into an aggressive/defensive realm that makes it very difficult to come back to day after day. The overall tone, to me, has dropped into hostile territory- which serves no one reading THIS blog. In the end, I come here to read YOUR articles and gain some knowledge, even if it doesn't directly pertain to me or my life. Whatever direction you choose (in terms of moderating comments) is fine with me, as long as the negativity doesn't drain you in the long run, which I think is a concern for some of your readers & fans.

CreatureofHabit February 10th, 2009 09:27:10 AM

ps - can someone please tell me how to get paragraph breaks?

CreatureofHabit February 10th, 2009 09:27:45 AM

Julie: If you can smile in all those situations...why is it that Dolittler deserves to be a venting destination? Why is a blameless veterinarian's comments so readily turned into an opportunity to revile something that happened to your family?

It's as if I were to start reading a blog on Cuba and consistently took that opportunity to bash the political regime for the atrocity it committed against my family member. Do I have a right to? Yes. Will I change minds? Sure, if I'm careful. Will I make my point any better by acting with obvious hostility at the blogger and his/her readers? Seems counterproductive to me.

From now on (with the exception of this thread) I will delete any comment I deem "hostile" or "topic twisting." I will not adopt moderated comments but I will abort comments and threads that don't meet the needs of the community I'd like to build.

You will have your chance to rant on a number of topics. But attacking others, twisting their words and generally acting in a hostile manner WILL get you deleted.

Dr. Patty Khuly February 10th, 2009 10:17:39 AM

"Happy go lucky clients who sashay in and out of vet hospitals happily satisfied are probably not likely to spend lots of time here, become regular readers or posters. Why would they?"

Well, not all of my vet visits are necessarily happy ones, but I like and trust my vets, and I'm a regular reader here. Why? Because even though my type of pet (ferret) is rarely discussed, I enjoy learning about all sorts of animals, cats, dogs, guinea pigs, goats, the occasional young homo sapiens ;-) , and because I care about issues like feral cats, research, ethics, and all the wide range of animal-related topics Dr. Khuly covers here. Shouldn't that be what it is all about for all readers? Innocent until proven guilty applies just as much to members of the veterinary profession as it does to the rest of us. And most of us are innocent most of the time.

(Sometimes I worry with my comments that I'm the "Where's the love for the ferret?!?!" person--anybody else remember the old pets.com commercial?--but I hope I keep my ferret-centric comments directly relevant to the topic at hand :-)

regina February 10th, 2009 11:18:21 AM

This subject is a reflection of human nature. Many people posting automatically think that if someone disagrees with them, they are wrong. The line between facts and opinions is too blurry for them. The shrill voice will be the first one heard but also the first one to be tuned out if it goes on too long. Consider your objective: What do you expect to accomplish? Are you trying to inform? Change someone's opinion? Vent so you feel better? Get retribution towards the offending party? Who is your target audience? Are you in the right arena? Some will accept what you say easily, some will never be convinced but the majority will listen if you present your case right. How you present your facts plays a big role in how effectively you accomplish your objective, whatever it is. Ask yourself these questions before you post. (I did) Dr K provides a valuable forum for all of us, however diverse our interests. I find it easier to listen to someone that is not shouting in my face or kicking me in the shin.

Hobson February 10th, 2009 11:33:09 AM

CreatureofHabit, I think that if you hit carriage return twice instead of once, it would give you one line. This is a test to see whether it worked. This is a test. Is this working?

Natalie Kramer February 10th, 2009 12:40:50 PM

The carriage return trick didn't work. Sorry. Hobson, I think what you are saying is correct, but it is true on both sides of the argument (this particular argument we are now in the midst of). I don't want to repeat what I have already said a couple of times, but your point about civility and appropriate presentation is well taken. However, as you also pointed out, when those of us concerned about the problem explain our concers (the civil ones it seems too), we are immediately seen as adversaries of the veterinary profession and given the dirty looks (in their cyber version). So your point about the disagreeing party being perceived as wrong, or more importantly, the vilain, the inherent enemy to be treated with automatic hostility is also true. I think that for the sake of a fair and agreeable discussion for everyone's sake, it might be good to have someone remind the offending parties on both sides of the need to disagree civilly, without attacking, and even in the face of criticisms. Some criticisms are valid, even if directed at our profession. There is no need to automatically take them personally. Thank you for trying to bring balance to this argument.

Natalie Kramer February 10th, 2009 12:55:30 PM

Re: Emily: "anyone suggesting I needed to be medicated would be deleted without a moment's hesitation"

I want to make it clear I never suggested Dr. K needed to be medicated. I have just been told ONE TOO MANY times on this thread by someone with an "angry claw" on the mouse or some such that I need to forget, move on, and get therapy.

We have America's Most Wanted today because John Walsh did not zone himself out on drugs and let the whole thing drop.

If you are talking about my comment to the woman with the angry claw, read the posts above it.

We are expected to TAKE IT, and TAKE it, and never respond in kind. That's because this is Dr. K's blog, and they think it's OK to hurl personal insults at those of us who talk about veterinary malpractice here as a serious issue. It's socially acceptable on this blog to call me crazy and tell me I need drugs or therapy, but if JUST ONE TIME I respond in kind because I'm sick of it and there is only so many personal insults I can take without coming back . . . oh, well, then, my transgression is actually NOTICED, while all those which preceeded it are simply accepted.

How much are we supposed to take in the way of personal insults here? One way street?

When we write abut bad veterinary experiences, this is not the same thing as hurling personal insults at people POSTING ON THIS BLOG, they just take it that way.

I am not being sarcastic when I say that is truly an issue of personal boundaries. If I say there are lots of bad vets out there, don't everybody think I'm talking about you! Because I'm not!

The level of personal nastiness toward us here is much greater than that which would be tolerated on the reverse side. People react as though you are there personal enemy for criticizing one vet they've never even met. Nothing's ever going to improve that way.

Remember: Even Dr. K was horrified at William Baber. Who, yes, still has his license.

STefani February 10th, 2009 01:08:57 PM

Dr. K: "attacking others" will get you deleted.

Dr. K, just make sure you apply that fairly. People have called me crazy here and never been yanked. You only notice when it's us -- because that's the only time anyone complains -- they can be nasty to us until the cows come home, but everyone laughs and thinks that's just fine. Because the content of our speech is CRITICAL OF VETS and that's not tolerated in the veterinary community.

I would like someone to show me how we have personalyl insulted people here more than teh reverse. Telling Emily that she is wrong about Vet Boards removing licenses -- that's not a personal attack. That's from hours and hours of resarch over years. I requested the disciplinary records of EVERY state board this year. Would you like me to calculate revocation statistics for you? I'd be happy to do so when all the data are in. Then you will see I speak the truth.

Stefani February 10th, 2009 01:14:30 PM

Paragraph breaks. you need to enter the HTML code for a paragraph break.

I'd type it so you could see it but it won't show up because it will be read as code. It's an open carrot bracket, p, and then the close carrot bracket. Sorry, "carrot bracket" may not be the right term, but you can just look up HTML, paragraph tag on google and see what i'm talking about.

Stefani February 10th, 2009 01:17:17 PM

The "personal" attacks have been aimed at pretty much us. Yes, I do remember Stefani being referred to as crazy, Fontini as off the wall because no one got her "foreign metaphor", and then to illustrate the difference between normal & abnormal 'euthanasia', I'm told to get "pet-loss support" . Sorry, but that makes me think that someone views my "family member" as "just an animal---get over it". Would you tell the family member of a cruel beating/maiming, drive-by shooting" to get grief/loss counseling and "get over it?"

And the only "personal" attacks revolve around "one circumstance" and I freely use the name as to not give the impression that my entire state is full of evil vets. But yes, do bring up the "incahoots part".

I did make a booboo, responding OT to PJBoosinger or perhaps someone else. Give me 40 lashes, I do not do it on every blog, as claimed!!

Ok, so I may have gotten a bit "testy" on Emily's guest blog, who BTW, is not a vet, as stated above by someone not observant, but what would you say to a euthanasia "booboos" and "full and fair hearing". Sorry, I'm not going to let a "false-misleading statement" go unchallenged as far as NH goes.

I still can't fathom my "vet-basher reputation", after 35 yrs. of pet ownership and 5 remaining! Thank goodness, I do not receive this name-calling, intimidation where they are being treated for care. And if it happened 10 or more years ago, I wouldn't have any pets or even care to find this blog. (I'd be going to Hawaii every winter and Europe every summer--with the money/time/& well-being I saved)

If you ever walk in our shoes, and it CAN happen, then tell US, "oh well, get over it, screw everybody else, let it happen again" Thank you, Barbara A. Albright/Pocket's real story from Chester, NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 10th, 2009 02:56:56 PM

Stefani, Haha, no I wasn't referring to people here. I find most people here love their pets and want to learn more about veterinary medicine as a whole. That's why they're here.

Kathy February 10th, 2009 03:14:06 PM

Pocket's Story from NH: Could you clarify what I said that was false or misleading? The first statement (booboo) in quotes is not mine and the second was "it is in the interest of VMAs to ensure that the owner, as best representative of the companion animal, gets a full and fair hearing"--which I stand behind. Because to say 'false-misleading' suggests either ignorance or intent to deceive. I do not consider any statement I made to be deceptive, and if anything I said is factually incorrect I would like to hear about it. I cannot see how the it would be in the best interests of VMAs *not* to hear from owners.

emily February 10th, 2009 03:31:49 PM

Barbara - I did NOT say that Fotini, herself, was "off the wall." I said the comment was, because it made no sense. Even the explanation she gave of how we should have understood what she meant didn't make sense. She said “German lawns are green and beautiful, but pesticides are illegal in Germany. I saw Germans down on their knees pulling weeds--it was hard work, but they didn't care because they wanted a lawn free of weeds!" Then she said we should "Substitute companion guardians for Germans and bad vets for weeds." If we did, this is what we get: "German lawns are green and beautiful, but pesticides are illegal in Germany. I saw [companion gardians] down on their knees pullings [bad vets] -- it was hard work, but they didn't care because they wanted a lawn free of [bad vets.]

Considering how she has said that all the German vets (and US Military vets) she saw while overseas were great, the statement doesn't make sense. I really wish that when those of you who feel you have been attacked personally, you would say something that was a simple statement, such as "That comment was uncalled for" without going into the (yes, I'm copying it from you, because it's right here) "If you ever walk in our shoes, and it CAN happen" reply again and again.

Look, I have also lost a much-loved pet, one I'd waited 22 years to have (the story's not relevent here), because of a bad vet - who I'd actually worked for for one summer before I really started to learn about how things should be done. But other than one time, when the subject of sensitivity to anesthesia came up, I haven't brought it up. Trust me, it killed me (and a subsequent incident which is too complicated to go into here) three years ago, brought that back a thousand-fold, but I don't think it would be productive to keep shoving it in the faces of others. I speak against this vet (and others, because the Cleveland area has a number of them) when it will do some good. That almost never will be here. if and when it is, I'll say something.

KateH February 10th, 2009 03:41:06 PM

Thank you, Dr. Khuly. I so appreciate this post.

Deb R February 10th, 2009 06:03:36 PM

Dr Khuly, I love your blog, have learned a lot and hope you never get too tired and shut it all down. I admire your strength, drive and as another single mother I don't know how you do it all in a day. I thought I had a lot on my plate. In the end you do what you do to help animals and us to better understand the point of view from your side.

I have read through this entire post, although mostly do not read comments for all the reasons mentioned. I went back and read the AVMA again with the comments and I was embarassed, all of the posters that were rude to a GUEST on a totally DIFFERENT topic should really be ashamed of themselves. Emily has her Phd, yet you treat her with disrespect? On a topic she knows much more about than you? Choosing between the AVMA and lecturing at a Vet school means, yes she knows a little more than you on the topic of animal welfare and how it not only relates on a national and global scale.

I am happy for the post though, maybe I will be able to once again read responses without being annoyed.

Thank you again Dr Khuly for all that you do. A day of rest you should take for your own sanity and for us too, so you do not burn out and leave such a wonderful avenue that so many of us learn from. Every place has a few bad apples~

Calliegoose February 10th, 2009 06:09:05 PM

I would love if Dr. Patty Khuly would look over my site http://www.rajah2004.com please tell me if you agree with the treatment or non treatment my baby recieved. I have been told I should have researched the condition and known better. I did research bladder stones, what I never found was the fact that a animal who is sick should not be vaccinated. That a vet should not send home a animal whose blood platelets are so low she has to have a blood transfusion the next day (different vet). I placed trust in someone who according to a diploma and years of experience should have been more enabled to detect my dog's failing health than me. But because of this I am more aware of what to do prior to taking my dog to a vet, after almost 5 years I finally was able to get a pup, Toby. I take him to the vet hosp that helped me the best that they could to keep my Rajah alive. But I would never fully trust a vet, I question everything and if I should run into a problem I now know what to do. And with my site I hope others will learn from me before they have thier lives torn apart.

Debby February 10th, 2009 06:46:31 PM

Calliegoose:

"Every place has a few bad appples~"

Thank you!

Fotini February 10th, 2009 07:14:31 PM

Calliegoose, It is not disrespectful to Emily to say that there are some things that have to do with veterinary medicine that we know more about than she does. I've got nothing against Emily.

But it is a fact that vet boards rarely -- really, almost never -- take a license away for violations of patient care related things.

I have been filing FOIA requests with state boards for disciplinary files for a long time now. I don't have every state for every year, but I have a lot of them from all over the country for the last 3 or more years.

And I'm telling you, you can beat the you-know-what out of an animal as a vet, and keep your license. No problem.

VMAs can't take a vets license away. AVMA can't take a vets license away. Only vet boards can. And they don't.

I think you are confusing disagreeing with someone with attacking them.

Stefani February 10th, 2009 07:24:22 PM

Kind of interesting in itself that a bashing session has the record for # of posts. Emily the quotes are mine, you did not say "booboos". I did not quote you. I referred to the line about euthanasia and the line about VMA's full & fair hearing.

First of all, to my knowledge, here in NH, VMA's do not hold hearings, if they do, it is a secret. Only state appointed Veterinary Boards have jurisdiction to hold "full and fair hearings" , in which both parties present their case, can or may have representation, cross examination, etc. I did not want it to be misleading that a "hearing" occurred in my dog's case. The only reason anyone would know about what happened is solely via "me & my web site"...

Calliegoose, Emily puts on her underwear the same way everyone else does. She has stated that this is a NEW position and her background. I highly doubt at this point she has had time to brush up on the facts of disciplinary actions (or lack of) in the country. And, furthermore, we only were "tough", when the comments went awry; and NONE of us are suggesting: 1. that it is her fault & responsibility 2. that we somehow consider her incapable of such a HUGE task ahead 3. we all SINCERELY wish her success in the position WE WERE NOT attacking HER, but the AVMA stance.

KateH: I have found the older I get, the more tolerant and aware of life issues I become. I would be a liar to claim otherwise. I dismissed an awful lot of real social ills , as "fault" brought on by individuals/groups, etc. and shame on me.

I can empathize with anyone's sadness of losing a pet, no matter how or why. I have been through more than my share of vet booboos too, without hysterics or complaints. But when you reach the lowest of lows that includes needless suffering, barely minimum treatment without pain treatment (peritonitis), deception, and yes, I have to say it again, "hideous illegal and cruel" final injection...sorry that does qualify as intentional EVIL. Not even close to "booboo", not even close to losing a pet via accident, disease, terminal surgery, becoming lost or stolen.

I do not want this to happen to anyone's animal/pet ever! There is NO government or legal protection to PREVENT it. B.Albright

Pocket's Story from NH February 10th, 2009 07:30:45 PM

But before disagreeing you should read the sentence you are disagreeing with and ensure you have understood its meaning. I said, and this is third repetition: "it is in the interest of VMAs to ensure that the owner, as best representative of the companion animal, gets a full and fair hearing". I said this was a thing I agreed *should* happen as part of a post acknowledging the importance of the issue and my personal desire to assist in getting this to happen--I was not stating that it does happen as I have no direct experience. (It is outside of my professional duties entirely as a state issue as the state VMA are fully autonomous.) That statement was then misquoted, misconstrued, and used to imply I was saying the opposite with an intent to deceive. My intent to use my personal time on this issue to see if I could help is withering away very rapidly if every word I try to offer in support is going to be twisted and denigrated.

emily February 11th, 2009 02:00:51 PM

Dr. K - Thank you very much for your time and dedication to current and relevant topics. I also enjoy your blog and try to read everyday (I also work 12hour days, blog, family, pets, etc...) I can relate to the schedule and demands and am always impressed with your ability to stay current. You must have amazing time management skills ;) I think you do an excellent job :) I think the idea of taking Sundays off and letting Saturdays post ride for more comment time as an above poster said might not be a bad idea (plus - couldn't you use a day off blogging ?)

The fact that you incite such colorful comments is in fact a compliment to the outstanding nature of your posts ;)

Hope the B-day party was a success !

LC February 11th, 2009 02:07:30 PM

rollseyes: your "handle says it all". Duh, I am going on with life, I'm not paralyzed in a bed with a laptop & martini.

If you think over the past almost couple of years, I have bashed every blog with the same story, you have not read much or been around long.

Emily, as evident with the commenters, people don't always read every word & then think. I also believe it has been stated in articles & on TV, that the public's retention of information is extremely short. And once again, we sincerely hope & wish much success in your new position and hope to hear in the future some good progress (in any way).

Barbara A. Albright

Ps. maybe I have been with the USPS "too" long. When adults run to management & complain, tattle, don't get along, etc. we all refer to them as "whiners"

Pocket's Story from NH February 11th, 2009 03:00:55 PM

Dr. Khuly, I find "rollseyes" comment in very poor taste and believe you should exercise your discretion here and remove that comment. Thank you very much.

Greg Munson February 11th, 2009 09:56:28 PM

rollseyes: You must be one of the few bad apples. I feel SORRY for your clients and patients!!!!

Fotini February 11th, 2009 10:50:01 PM

Re: rollseyes

"you shouldn't be constantly dredging up feelings of pain, horror, and outrage every single second of your life and recounting it daily for the whole world to live your misery with you."

I agree with you in some respect, in that there comes a time when you should focus on moving beyond reliving the horror over and over again in yoru minds eye. I think most of us have progressed beyond that, and I do have to say that I don't think we have been daily recounting our stories here. Every once in a while, some topic here will bring it up, as it did for me last week, in the back and forth with another poster. But I don't think most here (of the group you are talking about) do that daily. You are exaggerating . . . .

" run the offending vet out of town by airing your story 'locally' and ruin his/her client base.... but get on with your life."

See, here is where you kinda don't get where we are coming from.

It's not about what ONE vet did to MY cat, or what ONE vet did to Greg's dog. etc. etc.

These things only happen precisely because there is no price to pay.

Running the vet out of town, getting bad publicity -- that might be satisfying in the short run if what you are after is retribution or if you just truly believe that this ONE vet is a danger, but no one else is.

However, a small but growing group of us got interested in how the "system" works (or doesn't), and have come to realize that individual vets are only a problem because VET BOARDS are a problem. They don't do their jobs.

The vet who I hold responsible for what happened to my cat -- he's small potatoes. How much malpractice does he commit routinely? I don't know. I DO KNOW that what hte vet board did in the case was so measely, he sure won't care much about it next time he might be dragged in there. Whatever fear or intimidation the prospect of a complaint held for him before, has certainly been eradicated.

It's not about individual vets, its about a system that permits, if not promotes, a culture in which everything from mere sloppiness all the way up to outright abuse is tolerated.

I don't care much about that one vet anymore, except as an example of what goes on that is exposed that NOTHING is done about.

Many of us, in order to go on with our lives, MUST ACT when we see an injustice we cannot forget. It's no longer about me, or Toonces, rest his wonderful soul. It's about your pets, and my neighbors pets.

I will give it a rest the day I see vet boards doing their job. That's when my work will be done.

Just like John Walsh had to take it on himself to figure out how to conduct national manhunts when the police and detectives weren't doing their jobs, we have moved far beyond our private grief, into a wider realm. It's about having some standards ENFORCED in vet med. It's about the Boards.

Please do not forget that William Baber, the vet who horrified Dr. Khuly enough that she blogged about it -- and who so many of this blog's readers said should lose his license -- not only got his license back from teh board, but the Board representative expressed sympathy for him, talking about all he had "gone through." Never mind the cats he stepped on as they flailed and he shoved a needle in their chest, fully conscious, or the dogs who got the same. Thousands, I think. So much so that prisoners on work release programs coudln't take it and had to speak out.

It's not even about William Baber -- he is an example. He is an example of how NOTHING IS EVER DONE about these people.

Stefani February 12th, 2009 04:34:27 PM

Thank you, Dr. Khuly, for removing the comment. It is very much appreciated. :)

Greg Munson February 12th, 2009 07:56:39 PM

Barbara and Stefani:

Just an example of when a thread was completely hijacked:

http://www.dolittler.com/2009/02/05/Breaking-up-is-hard-to-do-How-to-switch-vets-with-a-minimum-of-stress-and-strife-.html

Yes, getting copies of records is important - one thing I applaud the ER clinic where I work on doing is providing everyone copies of the records on checkout - but it wasn't necessary AGAIN to bring up Toonces story in full. We KNOW he was overdosed on insulin. We KNOW the vet lied and didn't ultimately accept responsibility. We didn't need to read it again. And again. And again. And again.

Cat ERVet February 16th, 2009 12:41:29 PM

Cat ERVet, your point on that thread is well taken. I started off on topic, but I was having a bad week and something set me off (the records thing). Altho some of the stuff I said in that particular thread is not information I've posted here before about my experience, some of those facts are things that I've never posted anywhwere before. All the same, I should have PM'ed that stuff to PJ, since at that point, I was "talking to" her and straying off topic. I agree with you.

Stefani February 16th, 2009 04:00:59 PM

Greg, thank YOU for pointing out to Dr. Khuly that that comment SHOULD be removed. Apparently she didn’t deem it “hostile” enough -- despite the reference to those of us who “can’t move on” should “get a gun and blow our brains out” -- to remove it on her own, which says a lot. (I can only imagine the melee that would have resulted if any of us dared to make that same comment about what vets with no consciences should do with THEIR guns…) {{{sigh}}} No surprise here with the new threat of "deletion" to keep us in line. Those of us who take on vets and the systems that protect them at any cost will always be accused of mindless venting, hostility, twisting, denigrating, etc. while those who attack us, insult us, and mock us will be secretly applauded and complimented for being "rational." The likes of us will always have to walk on eggshells while others will be given all kinds of leniency when coming after the likes of us. No problem. This is her sandbox and she can apply the rules as fairly or unfairly as she chooses. If she “deems” a post to be hostile then by god, it is. And if she does not, well, then, it is not. Kind of like the vet who put my elderly, dying cat in a box and gassed her “deemed” that halothane wasn’t “really” anesthesia. And so it was not. Why? Because he said so. Like the Orwellian animals, some posters are more equal than others.

Julie "Suki's Story" February 17th, 2009 01:27:34 AM

It's Dr. Patty's right to remove or not remove a comment as she see's fit, and also if there are complaints. It's her blog, I completely understand and have no malice towards her, or the one(s) who complained about it.

While I'm sorry some of you were offended by my comments, and I did word it a bit harshly, I still stand by my original opinion. If you can't or won't get on with life, seek counceling.

If some of you are more interested in changing the system rather than revenge then start a group (in real life not online), pettition the AVMA (in real life not online), get some national media exposure for your cause. That will certainly change things far more than griping on the net will.

My appologies to Dr. Patty if my previous comment caused any undo stress. Sometimes I get a bit ticked off at something and I have never been noted to posses alot of tact when airing my opinons when I'm upset.

rollseyes February 17th, 2009 04:16:10 PM

Rollseyes, some of us have been fighting this fight IRL for a number of years (ten and counting for me...) We VERY MUCH have a group in real life, we attend our state board meetings every year, and we ARE getting media coverage. A search on our sites will turn all of this up quite handily, if you're interested. As for petitioning the AVMA, excuse me while I LOL. Okay, done. I corresponded with Dr. Gail Golub back in 1999 on this subject, after my Suki was killed, and of course got nowhere. As I tell people every chance I get, I have since learned that you do not go to the source of the problem and expect them to FIX the problem. They ARE the problem. The AVMA makes no bones about their goals -- legislation to protect VETS and their interests. Message received. And let me try this one more time -- it is not about revenge. That is a word used by OTHERS to describe our life's work. (Kind of like MADD "getting revenge" on drunk drivers, right? Or Stefani's excellent comparison to John Walsh and the missing children effort. -- he has been successfully "getting revenge" on child molesters and killers for many years now.) The difference is that we are exposing the problems in the veterinary profession and the systems (board and legal) that protect THEM and not OUR PETS. This is an extremely POWERFUL, well-connected, and very very RICH lobby that will do literally anything to protect their own interests (i.e., money, power, money, power, and money). Anybody who does not see that is either blind or so incredibly naive there is no hope for them. I have nothing against vets making money; I have a BIG problem with vets having it both ways (your pet is a valued member of the family until we break him; then he's a piece of luggage that has no legal value). And yes, we do gripe on the net. as well, : -) because you never know what ONE pet you might save from the same fate that ours received. The price we pay is HUGE, but we do it at great personal cost because if it saves ONE animal, then Suki's death was not in vain. I for one just spent three years of my life defending my First Amendment rights on the internet against a vicious lawsuit filed by Suki's killer against me. Three more years of my life spent on this sick freak, as if what he did to Suki wasn't....quite....enough. So yes, don't worry, we're not sitting around plotting pointless revenge. We are OUT THERE DOING SOMETHING to protect other people's companion animals from the very WORST in this profession. And don't even pretend they don't exist because they do. Our pets are living, dying proof of it. p.s I too suggest counseling to those who are having a particularly rough time of it. I spoke to a woman just last Sunday who was making too many references to suicide after a vet overdosed her dog (giving him a COW's dosage of an off-label drug) and the board let him off, of course. It wasn't so much the death - it was the LIES that accompanied the aftermath that made her half-crazed with frustration and anger. We all know that feeling all too well. So I told her to please consider talking to someone about her thoughts -- plus I told her that committing suicide would only give the vets great pleasure that their accusations of "mental instability" would be true! I said, Picture their smiling faces to read your obit as proof positive that you're a nut! That snapped her out of it, I think, I hope, but that's what kept me going during the board investigation and the lawsuit -- i knew f I offed myself, FreakVet would dance a little jig and say, See I told you she was crazy! No way will I ever give him that satisfaction.

Julie "Suki's Story" February 17th, 2009 06:39:06 PM

I'm glad this has continued a little longer and that 'rollseyes' commented again. I read her comment and thought it was a valid point. I was going to agree with it and add something (which I didn't write down and since her comment is gone I can't remember exactly what it was), but had to go offline for a while and then Greg demanded it be removed. I feel that while he had the right to be offended, that the way he demanded it be removed was stated in a rather nasty way, as if he was testing Dr. Khuly, sort of seeing if he could get his way just by pointing a finger and saying "That's mean and I want it gone" as a kid might do. Before he (or anyone else) jumps down my throat, it was the way he said it, not the actual request (although I didn't think it was as harsh as, I'm sure, some people may have taken it.

KateH February 17th, 2009 06:53:48 PM

'Sorry - I meant that I meant I didn't think 'rollseyes' comment was as harsh as some people might have taken it.

KateH February 17th, 2009 06:55:47 PM

KateH - the comment was along the lines that if you can't move on with your life after the death of your pet, then you might as well get a gun and blow your brains out. But no, it wasn't the least bit "harsh." After all, what's a few splattered brains of us "crazy" people, right? No big loss. Again, I can ONLY imagine the rabid mob that would have surfaced here, demanding that type of post be taken down if one of us had suggested that the vets who killed our pets should blow their own multidegreed and highly educated brains out for what they did to us and our pets. Hoo boy.

Julie "Suki's Story" February 17th, 2009 07:25:10 PM

Since the comment isn't here anymore, I can't tell you exactly what I was thinking as I read it. What I remember (again, I can't verify) was that she was comparing how people handle the death or a pet versus the death of a human family member, and that the level of despair from some people was so high that it seemed like they wanted to end it all and that didn't help anyone. What would help those who are so distraught might be therapy. I am not disparaging anyone's pain, or completely defending every word 'rollseyes' said in her deleted comment (since I can't read it again to confirm every word). Yes, what she said was harsh, but I also think that sometimes a forceful suggestion that someone doesn't want to hear is always considered harsh by the recipient. Other people (standing on the sidelines, so to speak), might hear it as the only way to get through to someone who IS so upset they can't move on and do precisely those things that you speak of - speak out in productive ways to help others.

I realize that I might not be expaining myself so that you (or others) understand that I empathize with your pain (it's happened to me, too), but all I was trying to say was that I agreed with her general idea. That doesn't mean every word, just to reiterate.

KateH February 17th, 2009 08:04:14 PM

KateH - I can't recall exactly word for word what I wrote either, however I believe you got the gist of what I was trying, apparently offensively, to convey.

As for the more offensive part of the comment I believe I added that if you're not actually living your life then it's not actually living then is it? or something to that effect. By which I meant exactly what I said, I just used a very harsh example of the extreme version of not living one's life.

Julie - I meant to include Senators/Congressmen in my reply also but apparently I didn't get it in there.

Not that I've actually gone looking for groups like you describe, but I don't recall ever hearing of such a group as yours on the tv, radio or in my local papers. Which is why I suggested national media coverage. I think maybe more attention on that aspect may have more results you're looking for; whether it's changing the system or saving someone else's pets.

And I should have went with my original idea of using the word 'retribution' rather than 'revenge' in my reply.

Personally I don't believe in people being inherently good which is why I think that any 'system' will always be thwarted with problems, corruption, evil, and wrongdoings despite the best of intentions.

rollseyes February 17th, 2009 08:40:05 PM

What I don't understand is why Stefani, Barbara, and Juli don't seem to evolve. Yes, you lost your animals. Yes, it sucks. You have to move on at some point and accept that life isn't fair, that good doesn't always win, and let it go. I'm not saying don't lobby for change, but reading your stories told again and again show that none of you are moving on - you're all just as mad and traumatized as the day it happened. Those pets are gone. They are not suffering anymore. Your life is short. You have a limited time on this earth. Why spend it miserable and enraged? Yes, someone broke your trust -someone you really believed in - a veterinarian. It's done though. Spending the rest of YOUR life pissed off and recounting the story over and over again will not help bring your animals back. You all claim that you want to make people "aware" so that they can prevent this from happening to their animals. It doesn't come across that way. It comes across as if you WANT to live your lives as enraged, self-righteous victims. It if it hadn't been your pets, it would've been something else. I know that sounds harsh. And I suppose it is, but I think it's why everyone here gets so tired of hearing the stories over and over again.

Cat ERVet February 17th, 2009 09:46:01 PM

Cat ERVet, I think you are missing the point. Julie, Stefani, Barbara, and the others don't live their lives as enraged victims. They are seeking closure by informing others of their pets' stories and by seeking justice for their pets. Anyone with any familiarity with psychology will tell you that this is a healthy way of seeking closure. The reason these people repeat the stories is to illustrate their point, namely that your pet is not always safe at the vet's, and that the system that allows the lack of accountability for the vet and of recourse for the pet owner is corrupt at its very core. When confronted with arguments to the contrary or with suggestions to take this or that action, they repeat the details of their own experience to prove a point, to explain that the action suggested was tried and found ineffective, and that the problem is serious and systemic. For example, when advised to obtain the records, Stefani explained that her experience suggests that records can be doctored without much concern for how obvious the doctoring is. Julie was told that she should petition the AVMA, and she explained that she has done that, to no avail, and presented more evidence of unfairness and corruption inherent in the system. Again, her goal was not to continue being "miserable and enraged" but to impart knowledge that some might not yet have. It seems that the reason we are advised to "move on" is that our exposing the truth is undesirable.

Natalie Kramer February 17th, 2009 10:42:18 PM

I do not think that any of you have been advised to "move on" by anyone here because any of us feel that exposing the truth is undesirable. Many, perhaps most of us, know full well that horrible things can and do happen because of lazy, incompetent, uncaring, and even vicious people who, at some point, did manage to go through the steps to get a license to practice as a veterinarian. It is quite laudable to try to expose those who should not get to keep that license because of systemic abuses of the responsibilities that come with that priveledge. However, it still comes down to how you go about it. This leads to your statement that you are "seeking closure" and how others understand that term - and how they can best sympathize/empathize with you and assist you in redressing your grievance.

If you don't stress that you have reached a place in your emotional life that allows you to be both in control of your emotions and still passionate about how you want to see the system changed, it ends up as more about your pain than your desire for change. John Walsh did not begin hosting America's Most Wanted while he was still unable to control his pain and anger while helping go after the bad guys. Yes, I'm sure he started the process of searching how he could make the death of his son help others while he was raw with grief, but his ability to do anything to change the process would not have been effective until he could speak about it without agony coming through in his every word. He got closure and then he moved on to help change the system.

KateH February 17th, 2009 11:07:11 PM

Kate - why are you trying to read so much more into my request to remove a comment than what is there? You cannot HEAR my voice inflection. You cannot SEE my facial expression. So, you are conjuring up your own version of the "way" I said it. LOL. I was polite. I made a request, I did not demand. I said thank you. Twice. Let me run something past those of you who question our message ....and I'll be asking this again...so get used to it. First of all, if you are a vet or vet tech, for this hypothetical, now you are not. You have a much beloved pet. Your pet dies (God forbid) and you have reason to believe your vet could be negligent. You prepare and file a thorough complaint with the state board. The state board sends all of your thorough complaint to the accused vet. The accused vet crafts their reply directly to your complaint. In their reply, the accused vet is absolutely lying through their teeth and has completely changed all the facts. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

Greg Munson February 17th, 2009 11:35:39 PM

That I thought you sounded a particular way is how it came across to me. You sound completely different in your latest comment. I'm sure I'm not the only one to hear the difference. The first was snarky - to me. This last is belligerent - to me.

KateH February 17th, 2009 11:49:51 PM

Kate....there is something you must understand about the internet. I cannot SOUND any way to you because you cannot HEAR me.

I'm really not trying to be a smart aleck. I am trying to make a point. It is SOLELY how YOU are READING it. You have guessed completely wrong both times on any 'hidden' meaning my words might have. Seriously. Those that know me and my writing style know that I do not have a 'hidden agenda' in my words.

By the way, you did not answer my question. :)

Greg Munson February 18th, 2009 12:06:00 AM

I didn't answer your question because I felt it was off topic. The topic here being closure and how one comes across to others. And yes, I can hear what you sound like just as you can hear what I sound like. Just because someone else hears something different doesn't matter, as perception is reality. :-)

KateH February 18th, 2009 12:17:15 AM

Off topic? Not in this thread it's not. Why can't you answer the question? Hmmmm.

But see, YOU do not decide what my words mean - I DO. I am the author. And I am telling you that your 'perception' is wrong.

A HUGE part of communication is voice inflection and facial expression. Those two ingredients are missing in online communication, thereby causing many statements to be taken out of context. That is exactly what you are doing.

Greg Munson February 18th, 2009 12:50:45 AM

Okay - WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?

I will (and I have) tell people who ask about a particular vet, that if my animal was hit by a car in front of their building, that I'd go somewhere else for help. I will (and I have) tell people why I feel that way.

What I don't do is tell people I don't have any connection at all to, other than this online communication, every rotten detail of what happened to my pet, and how I felt about it, over and over again, until others find my need to relive my pain is uncomfortable enough to tune out whenever I start talking.

KateH February 18th, 2009 01:06:51 AM

STILL no answer. Why is that?

See, people LIKE YOU are the problem. Have I told you what happened to MY PET over and over here in this thread? Not at all. I think you know EXACTLY what is going to happen to YOU right here in this thread, so YOU are refusing to answer. I am not talking about MY PET.

ONE MORE TIME. The vet is lying. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

Greg Munson February 18th, 2009 05:31:19 AM

Kate, while you are entitled to your opinion, the FACT is that we are helping a LOT of people and I think that's what really bothers you. I've been doing this a LONG time, and what I know to be true is that I and the others have been there for the people who need us -- people so devastated, lost, confused, enraged, outraged, and nearly blind with grief when they discover that a vet killed their pet through negligence, incompetence, or outright abuse that they don't even KNOW where to start. And then they find us. For you to sit there in judgment, picking apart and hairsplitting that we are somehow not doing this the "right" way is an insult and a slap in the face to not only us (I couldn't possibly care less what you think about me) but to the victims that find us EVERY SINGLE WEEK. And believe me, their numbers are increasing. We are hearing from more and more people who literally had NOWHERE to go in terms of finding help. To say we haven't "evolved" is ridiculous. Have you? How much have YOU evolved in having to deal with the unpleasant FACT that vets DO actually harm and kill people's family members? You claim you know about incompetent, lazy, etc. vets. Maybe in theory you do. But have you LIVED it? Have you had a vet threaten you and assault you? Have you had a vet call you repeatedly to SCREAM at you to get your pet out of a hospital because he personally didn't approve of standard of care treatments and didn't want YOU getting them either? Have you had a vet tamper with records, destroy files, LIE in their response to the investigators after malpracticing on your pet (I got to see my vet's response -- LIES on every page). And don't tell me we haven't effected change because we have, and nobody told us we didn't do it the "right" way. My testimony, research, and documentation to the Sunset commission (Senators) got laws CHANGED in HB1131 in the Texas legislature. Greg proposed and got PASSED an amendment to the Texas Veterinary Practice Act that now REQUIRES vets to hand over their records BEFORE they see a complaint. so they now cannot ALTER the records after they read the complaint. Greg also put the Texas disciiplinary records online when the board here started playing games with removing information that the PUBLIC has the right to KNOW. Stefani too, with her BadVetDaily blog, has used public records to INFORM the public of some of these miserable miscreants who have gotten away with murder. We have worked countless, thankless, UNPAID hours to help others and we do it because if someone else had seen fit to do this years ago (instead of walking away or worse, being bullied out of doing anything because other people wanted to see them "move on with their lives") then MAYBE we would have heard about the monsters who killed our pets. Change is not effected by sitting in a corner with our hands folded. hoping we don't "annoy" anyone or make anyone "uncomfortable." Change is effected by yes, telling our stories until everybody understands that what happened to us can happen to them and their pets. You're free to "tune us out" anytime you want. I thank GOD for Greg, Stefani, Natalie, Tina, Barbara and so many others who are fighting this fight every day to make things better for everybody's animals because I can assure you -- these types of changes are NOT going to come from the vets. Not in a million years.

Julie "Suki's Story" February 18th, 2009 05:46:44 AM

There is so much I want to say in response to these latest posts but I will save some for later.

KateH, you are making a big, WRONG assumption about John Walsh. "Closure" -- it's a word other people than the grieving tend to use, but if you'd truly had a tragedy hit you like this, you wouldn't throw that word around.

Asked in a 2008 interview what motivates him, he said:

"It's not about closure. I'll always be the parent of a murdered child. But it's about justice. It's about seeing the person that destroyed your life, raped your wife, or murdered your child or your mother, being caught and held accountable.

So Adam is the motivation. He always will be. With all the horrible things that Reve and I went through, we always remember that Adam was the real victim. And all these years, we've tried to make sure that Adam didn't die in vain."

Because we cannot see the vets that murdered or injured our pets held accountable -- like Mr. Walsh -- we try to make sure they did not suffer and die in vein, by fighting to raise awareness about this problem, and fighting to get the system to hold other vets accountable.

What happened to Toonces will always be a part of everything I do, his fighting spirit will always inspire me, the horror of his suffering which I watched will drive me until I die or see the system change.

Walsh talks in this article about what his wife said to him when they did their first program:

"When we did the first program, Feb. 13, 1988, it was about a child killer who'd raped 17 women, killed four people and escaped from prison in Indiana. Reve said "The guy's a child killer. We've never gotten justice for Adam's murder. Wouldn't it be something if you caught him?"

Walsh article

No closure without justice, sorry. What a silly word.

Stefani February 18th, 2009 06:02:08 AM

Julie re:

"We have worked countless, thankless, UNPAID hours to help others and we do it because if someone else had seen fit to do this years ago (instead of walking away or worse, being bullied out of doing anything because other people wanted to see them "move on with their lives") then MAYBE we would have heard about the monsters who killed our pets. Change is not effected by sitting in a corner with our hands folded. hoping we don't "annoy" anyone or make anyone "uncomfortable."

Julie, thank you for that comment, this is RIGHT ON.

And THANK YOU personally for everything you have done all these years. After Toonces' overdose and the travesty that ensued that passes for "board action," your VetAbuseNetwork website was the only place on the web to go, and you were very helpful. Many of us who "found a place to turn" in you are trying to pay it forward, being contacted now through our own sites weekly or more often by other victims' loved ones. I hope to give them strength to fight. To tell their stories.

You can see by the comments on this thread that many people in the vet industry are not interested in reform -- believe it is unncessary, or like their world just the way it is, with all its altered records, "unavoidable" anesthetic deaths, etc.

Either they are in denial, OR they know quite well that substandard care and malpractice are epidemic in their business and have no intention of doing anything about it.

We speak out about this problem at every opportunity BECAUSE WE WANT TO CALL PUBLIC ATTENTION TO IT. If the Vet Industry can't find the will to address these problems as it is, THEN perhaps an angry and awakened public will HELP THEM FIND THE WILL.

Stefani February 18th, 2009 10:33:01 AM

Stef, thank YOU. As I am getting up there in years (cough cough) I rely on the younger ones coming up to carry this banner for a long time to come! You and Greg and the others I mentioned are absolutely the future of this movement and I am so privileged to know you both and of course the others who also speak out on this subject. It's a shame that so many people think it can't happen to them. They may be in for a big surprise one day...but that's all right. We'll be here to help them too. You said something when we first talked - that this was going to have to come from the VETS' consciences to step forward and do something about their own profession. Remember I said they would never do it? I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're seeing that play out in living color right now. If they won't do it, then like you say, "an angry and awakened public will help them find the will." Amen to that.

Julie "Suki's Story" February 18th, 2009 04:22:19 PM

To ERVet & others: I can't put it any better than Stefani or Julie or Greg.

We don't repeat "our stories" because we think the regular or longtime readers have "forgotten". It is for the benefit of possible new people, of which we see comments all the time "oh, thank you, I'm new & appreciate this topic..."

It really is insulting to compare this type of abuse to the normal loss of a human OR animal family member. I should know, I have experienced both. One was fraught with cruelty & suffering and one was compassionate and pain free.

If the medical personnell had experimented, prolonged suffering, inflicted intentional cruelty (in my face), treated my Mother without dignity, laid guilt trips on us family members, and yes, abusively treated us...I think we (I) would be traumatized. I think a hospital that does that would be "shut down", or certainly a lot of employees "fired".

When someone says "its a loss, get over it", it reflects the depth of understanding of the individual. All of us experienced many pet "losses" and yes, we got over it and have many, many happy memories of those pets...we are not hypersensitive, over-reacting fragile individuals that fall apart easiy (gosh, I'm a postal worker---you can't be a wussy and last!)

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH February 18th, 2009 06:41:21 PM

Way late to this party but first, kudos to Dr Patty for finally putting the lid on some of these folks. I hate to tell you but most of us have been too polite to tell you that we just don't want to hear it any more. And Barbara, newbies will follow links under sigs and look for appropriate blog posts for information like you claim to be making available to them. They do not need to read it daily (or more often). Also, Adam Walsh is an excellent example to follow. He was asked to create a TV show that allowed him HIS OWN forum to push his agenda. He did not invade other people's except by their own request. You might also note that he does not bring up his son's case every time his show airs. Maybe because he understands that folks "get it" without talking about it 24/7.

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