Some people are just impossible.  We had one client bring in his limping lab about 6 months ago.  The dog turned out to have a cruciate tear and of course the owner didn't have money to pay for the surgery.  (We actually extended him credit for the initial visit too, yet he still whined about the $50 we had him pay up front.) 

The vet discussed options with him.  We made him aware that there are funds available for low-income pet owners in exactly the situation he was in, but he didn't even want to try to apply for help.  He basically wanted us to do the surgery for free.  (And yes, we offered to extend him some credit for the surgery, but we had to have $500 up front to pay the surgeon).

So two months later he brought the dog in to be euthanized and ended up making a huge scene and yelling at the vet about how it was all her fault that he had to euthanize his beloved dog. 

I've met some pretty crazy people as a receptionist, but he really takes the cake.  I still can't believe he expected us to do a $1,500 surgery for free, but was unwilling to lift a finger to raise money for it.  The worst part is that we still feel guilty about it, because the dog certainly didn't deserve what he got.  Just his stupid owner. 

So Dr. Khuly, I completely hear you.  Some people are just nuts, and there's nothing you can do.

Beth M. March 8th, 2009 05:42:18 AM

I've spoken to Miami-Dade County Animal Services about this in the past. Though they apparently have the bandwidth (and a dedicated officer) to deal with pit bull violations, they have no one to specifically knock on doors for alleged cruelty violations. Warrants are necessary, I would imagine, unless the dog is clearly visible from the street while in her yard (where I imagine she spends most of her time). And it's a her-word-vs-mine situation, mostly. 

And let's think about what would happen to this dog if the woman were turned in. Would she be forced to get care? Or euthanize the dog? In this case, I would hope she'd pay (she's clearly well-heeled enough for basics). 

Interestingly, I spoke to a tech this morning (after posting this) and she told me the woman's daughter came back to purchase flea meds. Hooray! If I had the daughter's number (which I don't) I would definitely call her to see what I could do. 

Clearly, Edie, your point about making the daughter an ally is spot-on. Wished I'd thought of it at the time. Sigh.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 8th, 2009 05:43:12 AM

Well, like I said, it's easy to advise from the sidelines, and in hindsight. It sounds like the mother sucked all the air out of the room. But I'm glad at least the dog is getting flea meds. It's a start. Maybe the daughter will wangle her way around her mother and help poor Miss Dixie some more.

Edie March 8th, 2009 05:54:00 AM

I've know my share of people like this.  In a majority of the cases it is IMPOSSIBLE to get through to them. They are so far "gone" nothing short of a  Steinway Grand Piano falling on them out of the sky as they are walking down the street can knock any sense into them.

Evet March 8th, 2009 06:12:48 AM

Please excuse my typos I'm still not quite awake yet.

Evet March 8th, 2009 06:14:50 AM

The woman sounds like she has some mental-health issues; including paranoia, and she is possibly bipolar (behavior sounds a little manic). The daughter seems to be a semi-caretaker for the mother--sounds like they've been this route before. And try to remember; it's not just the down-and-out who can be mentally ill--there are a lot of really rich folk (remember Howard Hughes) with severe and disabling mental illness. Unfortunately, you sometimes have to dance around the mental issues of the owner to get to the animal's problem. For poor Dixie's sake, I would try to enlist the daughter's cooperation; the mom may be more out-of control when out of her own comfortable environment and she may just cooperate with treatment when approached by someone she trusts (e.g. the daughter) if done slowly while in familiar surroundings. In any case, seems the daughter wants to try to help the dog, and at this point, for Dixie, any treatment at all is better than none. Hopefully, it's a start, at least.

Shellie March 8th, 2009 06:21:17 AM

I don't think bossy, egotistical, close minded self centered control freaks are considered mentally ill by the professional establisment. 

The narcissist on the other hand is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power and prestige.

In her case it's gone to the extreme.

Evet March 8th, 2009 06:32:54 AM

I once insisted that my dog did NOT have fleas, even though he was scratching and losing fur on his butt.

When the vet poked around his hindquarters and found and showed me a flea, at least I had the grace to be embarrassed and to apologize for being an idiot about it.

Janice in GA March 8th, 2009 08:22:49 AM

I'm so sorry you had to go through that horrorshow with the client.  I realize it's not a short term fix, but is there a Miami-Dade county vet association that could begin lobbying for revised animal cruelty regulations here with some financial penalty teeth in them?

you can't be the only vet that encounters this level of animal abuse.  you were amazingly controlled and civil in a situation that would have taxed anyone to the max.  I salute you! now pass the mojitos, er, anaesthesia....

Caroline March 8th, 2009 09:30:53 AM

Dr K,

I think you handled this situation with the proper demeanor. I especially liked how you said “Then you’re going to have to accept my help civilly...or go elsewhere.”  and also your apology to the waitress with your explanation was nice. I often look at clients that are rude to me as possibly  having had a bad experience right before they walk in the door and it makes dealing with them a little easier (that and the fact that I don't have to live with them)

We have asked clients to leave (fired them) for various reasons, but one of them is not caring for their pets in keeping with our standards. We don't insist they do everything to the max, but give them options and expect them to follow them as finances permit, and as long as they are helping their pet live a happy healthier life, they don't have to do everything we lay out for them, they just have to do something!

In the 7 years I have been with the practice I am with now, that has only happended 3 times and one of those clients pleaded to come back and guess what...she is a great client now and I know we all get satisfaction out of that. One thing that my vets do is to often email clients with a treatment plan, often with links to info on conditions on www.veterinarypartner.com. Then the client has something to read over and ponder. That is time consuming for our vets, but our fees reflect that kind of "case management" and followup.

Teri and the cats of Furrydance March 8th, 2009 09:33:17 AM

OMG did you meet my mother? Evet's right the woman's a narcissist and everything's "about her." Any "judgement" about the dog was a reflection on her personally which narcissists just cannot take. A narcissist must be in absolute control of any situation at all times or else their delicate sense of self is threatened. Narcissists also "project" onto others disowning anything inside themselves they cannot accept. You cannot reason with a narcissist, hence enrolling the daughter to "enroll" her mother may have worked had you had time. The fact she came back to buy flea control MUST mean your staff recorded at a minimum the home address and family's name in your records. Why not see if you can find a listed phone # and if not, at a minimum send a letter as per Teri's suggestion with information on arthritis and ear infections along with your sincere invitation to return because you want to help Dixie? Narcissists cannot accept personal judgements BUT if given something impersonal written to read and educate themselves you "may" be able to create a crack in her wall that will allow her the self preservation she seeks to reconnect with you for Dixie's sake. I know it's asking alot of you personally, Dr. K, but think of Dixie: I have a rescued GSD I spent over $5K on after adopting him to what I believed was a GREAT family only to have him come back horribly neglected. Apart from being 30 lbs. underweight and a bloody, oozing mass from head to toe from skin infections/scratching/biting he had such bad ear infections that after 2-months trying to eradicate them I had two choices: put him down or the ear infection would go to his brain and kill him OR invest in total ear canal ablation surgery. Guess what? I have the sweetest, 5-yr. old, purebred male, 97-lb. GSD looking for a new good home on the planet! He may be "deaf" but he sure doesn't act like it! (And if you know of any GSD lovers PLEASE refer them to me!) Anyway, point is: you CAN connect with this family for Dixie's sake if you want to try. And even tho MDAS doesn't have as much help as it could the lead investigator WILL look into a cruelty complaint. However, I'm not sure how much jurisdiction they have as long as the dog has food, water, shelter, shade and doesn't by eyesight appear too badly neglected. I doubt with the caliber of employee and funding they have that ear infections or flea infestations will warrant action ... but if the woman doesn't respond to your reaching out to her I'd give it a whirl. I don't have the lead investigator's e-mail here I have it at work so if you're interested e-mail me at: lmorrison@theflyer.com and I'll send it to you. As a professional I'm sure Dr. Pizano, Director of the shelter, would always welcome your call and she WILL follow thru. I have her e-mail address and I believe her cell # as well at work. If Dixie is purebred Lab Rescue even at her advanced age would probably accept her for placement. If not purebred and her owner refuses your reconcilation gesture and is cited by MDAS Dixie is probably destined for death. But that may be better than living with a chronic ear infection. And that's DAMNED hard for an animal rescuer to say but true. (Altho my neighbors just put down their beloved "Dixie" a large hound girl this week and "maybe" they'd accept another aging girl into their brood: if you were to get her I'd move heaven and earth to help find her safe haven.) As for future instances like this: recognize you went into the exam room already steeled for some kind of encounter based on what you overheard at the front desk. If you can acknowledge and recognize in advance next time a situation like this begins occuring you can circumvent your own behavior almost like an outsider looking in and realign your natural reaction to one that might "enroll" the client instead. Nothing you did was out of order in the least; these people aren't "sick" but aren't "normal" either; everything's about "them." And being "wrong" or "found out" is a severe threat to their sense of self. Talking to Dixie vs. mom direct might have helped - "Dixie girl, where have you been to get those ears so badly infected? Have you been rolling in dirt?" Or "Dixie, are you sneaking treats when mom isn't watching causing your arthritis to act up from a little extra weight on your bones?" Those kinds of statements might then allow Mom to open up and actually HEAR what you have to say about helping Dixie vs. being attuned to her defensive posture which she lives in 24-hrs. a day. She doesn't live there because she enjoys it or is even subjectively aware of it - her very life depends on it. Hope I've helped, maybe.

Lee March 8th, 2009 10:34:48 AM

Almost sounds like she/owner has been "talked to" about Dixie before. And possibly does want to help Dixie, but lacks where-with-all or funds? She made the appointment, states it is not for a rabies, but becomes hysterically defensive over the issues.

The start is with the flea products, perhaps soon it will be for ear cleaner/antibiotics. The overweight thing? Well, can't accuse her of starving neglect, but sheer ignorance.

BTW, your $99 deal is a DEAL! I'd be grabbing that deal on EVERY pet, and often for seniors! And darn great marketing, this should be utilized in my area!

Barbara A./NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 8th, 2009 11:03:27 AM

I hate it when that happens.  I am not a vet, nor do I play one on TeeVee.  I do however see a lot of dogs that suffer at the hands of their well intended, but naive and thoughtless owners.

This, however, takes the cake.  I don't know what you as a vet could do to pursue charges for cruelty or if you would even entertain the idea. I know it certainly would not endear you to her, but at some point we all have to take a stand, don't we?

Linda Kaim March 8th, 2009 12:24:27 PM

Sadly, think this owner is a LOST cause.  Best to let that go.

As for the after effects (been through similar times), I'd redirect the anger/energy.  Personally, I would have held it all in until that Chesapeake showed up and, when others started to coo, I'd have begun saying things like "oh, that poor, poor dog; so beautiful but will have a shorter life, won't be long before the arthritis and pain sets in; sure hope they didn't bring him/her in for a 'treat' because that would be really sad" in tones just loud enough for all to hear my oozing concern.  The only way to change public opinion is to openly express a different one. :)

$99???  How's the housing market over there?  Maybe I should be looking for a house there instead of here!

PJBoosinger March 8th, 2009 12:25:55 PM

Dr. K: Do you have a lot of clients like the one you describe here? Is she an exception to the rule rather than the norm?

If you truly believe your client is neglecting her dog or being cruel, PLEASE by all means, report her to the appropriate authorities!

Fotini March 8th, 2009 02:44:28 PM

Fotini: An absolute exception, I can assure you.

PJB: Housing market's in freefall. Excellent for the buyer! (and for the long-term holder) Come on down.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 8th, 2009 02:55:04 PM

I have worked for both veterinarians and eye doctors.   I've seen clients in both offices who walk in with a chip on their shoulder.   They make everyone's life miserable the entire time they are there and you can do nothing to please them.   I think you handled the situation with admirable restraint.    I feel for the poor dog.  This woman obviously should not have pets.

Karen March 8th, 2009 04:43:50 PM

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Chuck up here in Canada.  I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you on the fact that overfeeding your pet IS ABUSE.  I show my dogs in Conformation and Obedience, and field trials (Labrador Retrievers), and when my dogs are not prepping for the show ring they are at their ideal weight.  Meaning they have a very nice hourglass figure and their ribs are barely visible when they lay curled up or turn their bodies.  It makes me feel really bad when I put weight on my dogs to bring them up to (down to???) show condition.  Unfortunately it is needed in the show ring it appears(which it shouldn't be).  This is taken to extremes with some of these dogs in shows (more so with Labrador's I have seen) at shows.  I have had comments about my dog like, "wow he's really skinny", or "is he sick?".  I just laugh as these people's dogs are so overweight that it does make my dog look sick or skinny, in the same token I also get from people who know why he isn't fat, “wow that's the shiniest coat I've ever seen!”, due to the good (and expensive) food we feed here.

Recently there was an incident up this way (in New Brunswick -see article here) of a man who bred Pomeranian's, and he was going to lose them to the SPCA for some reason or another (poor housing or care).  Well he decided that he wasn't going to let someone take his animals so he used a hammer to put them out of their misery.  I know, this is very disturbing to me as well.  However it is even more disturbing that he went to court and it was determined that he did nothing wrong because the animals were his "Property", and he could do what he wanted with them, as long as they didn't suffer when he killed them.  Needless to say this has created a huge fuss up here and many people are very very angry.  This has led to new legislation on how animals are kept and cared for (including farm animals).  Essentially nobody can cause the death of an animal if not done by a veterinarian or an animal control officer (due to animal in extreme distress and a vet cannot be brought in fast enough).  Also nobody can cause an animal to be "in distress".  I'm hoping this "distress" clause added in will allow for vets to report people who have morbidly obese animals.  I mean it's not rocket science here, as the owner you control the food supply.  It's not like your dog or cat is going to the store and buying junk food when you're not home.  Anyways, sorry for the big rant, but this struck a nerve with me (as I'm a lab guy, and overall just an animal lover).

Charles G March 8th, 2009 05:05:09 PM

Charles G:

"However it is even more disturbing that he went to court and it was determined that he did nothing wrong because the animals were his "Property", and he could do what he wanted with them, as long as they didn't suffer when he killed them."

. . ."Property" The pitfall of the law which considers animals as "property." This individual would not have walked free if the law considered animals as "sentient beings." He would have paid the consequence of killing a "sentient being."

Fotini March 8th, 2009 06:06:49 PM

I'm not sure if dogs are sentient or not.  Although I'm sure my Border Collie is.....she's too smart and screws with my head!  However even if a dog isn't sentient we are still their caretakers and to me that is a huge responsiblity.  I'm just starting out as a Lab Breeder, but I've already drawn up my purchase agreement to state that I will be following up with the purchasers vet to make sure their dog is in good health and not overweight.  I know there really isn't a way to enforce this but it might make some people think a bit more about what they are doing.

Charles G March 8th, 2009 06:34:30 PM

Charles G:

Companion animals are sentient beings because they breathe, feel pain, love and in general they have FEELINGS! Do you believe your Labs are worth as much as your chair or table?

Fotini March 8th, 2009 07:21:53 PM

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I didn't mean anything negative by it.  They are definitely not property, and should not be looked at this way.  But it was my understanding that sentient meant a being had to be self aware, to know they are alive.  Maybe it's just semantics.  Either way, my dogs are my kids, regardless of definition.

Charles G March 8th, 2009 07:37:00 PM

OMG, I wish my vet was as thorough as you sound! I don't think I have ever seen or heard of an exam that included blood work. I had to practically demand xrays on my poor limping dog and switched vets because the standard of care wasn't there. The physical exams are better now but noone ever goes beyond putting their hands on my dogs and saying they are in great shape.

RD March 8th, 2009 07:52:48 PM

"ever goes beyond putting their hands on my dogs and saying they are in great shape"  Yep, that's the exam I'm accustomed to as well!  I was actually thrilled when my vet noticed my dogs were FAT.  I was starting to wonder if they would ever tell me anything that wasn't just pro forma.  BTW, to all on here, I don't tell any of my human or animal providers that I have degrees in law and accounting until I know them really well just because it tends to freak people out.  Although it is better than the old days when I said: "I work for the government" instead of "I work for the IRS" :)

And off to look for FL property that isn't in an HOA...

PJBoosinger March 8th, 2009 09:21:29 PM

Your annual package is a great deal. I live in Iowa and am sure it will be a good bit more.

Erich Riesenberg March 9th, 2009 02:38:16 AM

Definition of sentient from Merriam-Webster vis a vis the comment of Charles G.

Etymology:

Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

2 : AWARE

3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling

For a long time people believed that animals were not sentient and in fact were only driven by instinct hence the "rationale" behind vivisections and the like.

Sheyna March 9th, 2009 04:32:30 AM

Wow, your annual package is quite a deal! 

I too do a lot of self-flagellation when I encounter similar situations. It's good to ask, "how could I have done better?" but it's not healthy to stay there too long.

As some of the posters above mentioned, I wonder if any attempts at discussing the dog's bad condition were perceived as being a direct criticism of the owner. No one wants to be wrong and some people want to be right more than others. (And some people want to turn everything into a pissing contest.)

From your description, the woman was shrieking at you for merely reaching for objects. I don't know what I would have done. It's one thing to realize that your words aren't helping and another to be at a loss as to what's the next thing that will set this person off.

Did you try the thing where you repeat back to her what she was saying to you? (Active listening technique.) How about summarizing? I think that sometimes that we can get so much into instruction mode that when we encounter someone who doesn't respond typically (that sounds like an understatement in this case), it can be hard to change tactics. 

OTOH, I don't know how someone could stay detached and unemotional when confronted with an animal who is so needlessly suffering. <sigh> 

I recommend a nice massage and some aromatherapy. Perhaps do some reading on how to reduce drama. (I always find this kind of reading to be very soothing.)

Deanna March 9th, 2009 04:39:56 AM

The one problem I have with reporting clients is that you may then end up with people who don't want to bring their dog to a vet for fear of being reported. We have a large non english speaking population here who already thinks that if you bring your dog to the vet sick it will be taken away. Aromatherapy is a not a bad idea. For clients that is. Many vets use DAP for dogs and cats but they also make one for humans that pediatricians use in their office for kids. That might be interesting to try. Or maybe cocktails.... I use humour a lot with clients. I also focus almost totally on the pet at first, pretty much ignoring the owner. Sometimes seeing how friendly you are with their pet and that you seem to really like their pet can win them over. Then you can turn your attention to the owner. I use the sandwich technique. I say a good thing about the pet "Gosh, she is very tolerant and sweet about my poking around isn't she?" followed by the perceived negative "My but she does have a bad case of fleas, who doesn't this time of year, she has a bad ear infection, and she is quite arthritic". Then another positive "What a good old girl she is, I bet you have enjoyed her company for years haven't you?" I ask questions like "What's her favorite game?" "What was she like as a pup?" Things that melt the owners heart. I think most people are intimidated by vets (or anyone in white coats). They are often scared as well. They know their pet is old and sick. They don't want to hear that it's dying. Or they may even know they've neglected it a bit, we're all busy but still feel guilty. As a trainer, even having worked at a vets it was hard for me to speak up and ask for my dog to be handled in a different way or to explain that my beliefs don't include vaccines or toxins of any kind. (That's better accepted these days but in the old days I got a lot of grief for that.) My last two dogs lived to be 15 and 16. My cats 19. Old age is hard to deal with in a pet. And even when you've done everything you can with a client and it doesn't "seem" to be working, remember you planted a seed. (The daughter came back for flea meds....) When I did work at a vets I thought we shouldn't give out cards for trainers or boarding facilities, we should give out cards for good therapists.

Zen Trainer March 9th, 2009 05:40:52 AM

This is why I could never bring myself to work at a vet's office. You handled it better than I would have.

Elisa March 9th, 2009 09:21:25 AM

Sounds like some mental health issues at play with the mother ;(  We once had a similiar client at a clinic I worked at, during the initial I noticed she had two purses on the table one was chocked full of cheap costume jewelry in the middle of her rambling/yelling at the vet I interrupted and said wow that is some very pretty jewelry you brought with you today, she paused, smiled and explained that little men wearing black suits had been sneaking in her bathroom everyday to take her very expensive jewelry so she now had to take it with her everywhere she went....the vet and I looked at eachother and he quickly changed tactics ;)   She was very paranoid about everything we did with the dog and worried about money, so the vet asked her what she had planned to spend today and we worked with that which was some wierd amount like 98.38 or something LOL

Its hard because people with mental disabilities are not so easy to identify, one of the techs at the clinic I remember saying that she should not of been able to have the dog because she was ill but I think the dog was the only thing keeping her somewhat sane!  Even though he had some fleas and could of been taken better care of he clearly adored his owner I noticed them leaving the clinic and the owner was having a complete conversation with him and I had a feeling that he and her spent every moment together.

Here is a link to a new book on mental illness and dog ownership

http://www.mentalhealthnotes.com/2008/08/29/book-review-puppy-chow-is-better-than-prozac/

Perhaps clinics that get this sort of thing alot should consider having a psych counselor come in for staff training on how to identify, interact and react ?  

oh and 99 dollar yearly exam ! wow that is awesome !  Hope your day is much better today ;)

LC March 9th, 2009 09:24:29 AM

I would have to agree with your last statement. If vets can be sued and should be sued for wrong doing then so should neglectful pet owners. Taking on a pet is like a taking on a child, you become responsible for its life. If you can't be responsible for it then don't bother getting one. It's a huge responsibility that very few people explain to prospecting owners. Most people think you can have a pet, feed it the $10 bag of food at publix, take it to Petco for the cheap vaccination and be done with it.

I have a question for you, with that case is their nothing that can be done? I mean can the owner really neglect the pet so much and have no consequences?

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would not provide care for an animal that is obviously very ill. It just boggles the mind.

A little off topic, but that annual package is very well priced. Where are you located? I'm looking for a new vet since my old vet and I seem to clash heads alot over the, "there is no need to vaccinate every 6 month - 1 year."

William March 9th, 2009 09:42:58 AM

Dr. K - the answer is simple.  She just didn't want to be wrong.  She wanted you to tell her that everything was ok, and that the dog was fine just the way it was.  Why?  Because that's the way SHE sees it.

I get it ALL THE TIME.  First, the question is posed.  A few examples - My cat is losing hair/weight, my dog is vomiting/has cracked pads/is losing hair/weight, my rabbit has diarrhea, my snake isn't moving, etc etc etc.  And some of them are REALLY bad - ie My cat has been vomiting bile for three days - do you have anything for her?

Anywho, I know the response I'm going to get before I even answer.  It doesn't matter what I say.  Unless I can hand them a magic pill that doesn't cost more than oh, say $5, or I can pat them on the head and say that it's all normal, and the dog/cat is just old (after all, he's FIVE!) they are going to leave pissed off, and probably going to take a chunk out of me prior to exiting.

I make an effort regardless.  I suggest elimination diets, vet visits, particular tests/treatments, possible diseases/bacteria/viruses and stress the urgency of the situation and/or the lengthy process ahead (allergies in particular require dedication!).

Bottom line, they don't really want an answer, unless it's the answer they had when they came in.  What they DEFINITELY did NOT want is the TRUTH.  And unfortunately, that's all we have on the menu.  ;O)

Kim March 9th, 2009 12:05:41 PM

Aromatherapy and a massage...sounds like heaven...

Dr. Patty Khuly March 9th, 2009 03:00:18 PM

"Taking on a pet is like a taking on a child"  While I understand the sentiment, NOPE, not even close to the same.  If my child (actually, any child) ran in front of traffic, I'd risk my life to get them; not so for even my own pets.  Putting the standard this high will only result in far more homeless animals.

"If you can't be responsible for it then don't bother getting one."  I agree with the sentiment but is no life (because that's the result of no home for the pet) better than a crappy one?  For me, the line is somewhere between your altruistic standard and the puppy mill standard.  And before we can enforce any standard, we need to do a much, much better job of educating pet owners.

"If vets can be sued and should be sued for wrong doing then so should neglectful pet owners."  Why would the law hold someone with a third grade education to the same standard as a multi-degreed, licensed professional?  Or are you proposing two different standards?  Most of the lousy advice I've gotten came from licensed vets.  Do I get to use that as a defense to a charge of neglect?  Who gets to sue the pet owners?  Or are you proposing a criminal standard and, if so, could we at least have that same criminal standard for vets (as opposed to civil suits and administrative sanctions which don't seem to be working)?

PJBoosinger March 10th, 2009 01:16:13 AM

"While I understand the sentiment, NOPE, not even close to the same.  If my child (actually, any child) ran in front of traffic, I'd risk my life to get them; not so for even my own pets." We will have to agree to disagree on this one. To me it's a life that I am responsible for and as such, I would go to any means to protect it. I would easily throw myself in front of a car for my child or my pets without a second thought. You see it differently and thats fine.

"Putting the standard this high will only result in far more homeless animals." How so? A child requires some very basic things; supervision, food, shelter, and training. These three basic things are also required from a pet. I said it was like taking on a child, meaning there are similarities. Perhaps you misunderstood.

"I agree with the sentiment but is no life (because that's the result of no home for the pet) better than a crappy one? " Everyone is going to have a different opinion on this. I would say no. I would rather have no home then have one where I am not loved or cared for.

"Why would the law hold someone with a third grade education to the same standard as a multi-degreed, licensed professional?  Or are you proposing two different standards?  Most of the lousy advice I've gotten came from licensed vets.  Do I get to use that as a defense to a charge of neglect?  Who gets to sue the pet owners?  Or are you proposing a criminal standard and, if so, could we at least have that same criminal standard for vets (as opposed to civil suits and administrative sanctions which don't seem to be working)?" What makes you say they have a third grade education? Do you know their academic background personally? I think this a mute point. Too many people think that just because you have a degree means you are an educated civil person with rational thought. I am not proposing two different standards because the issue is in fact two different things. One is neglect from a health provider, the other is neglect from an owner. At the root they are both neglect, but are classified by two different things. The way things are even if your vets lousy advice or care directly and irrefutably results in the death of your loved one, you can sue but you won't win, unless you have deeper pockets. In the end, with our justice system, the one thing that will get you what you want is deep pockets. Thats why rich criminals get off with a slap on the wrist. Thats why certain athletes get away with murdering their wives or even how micheal vick got nothing more than a slap on the wrist and now some house arrest time. If it was an average person under those curumstances then the result would be a lot harsher. I can assure you that if I did what micheal vick did, I sure wouldn't be getting such a lax treatment.

Ideally, PJ, I would love a criminal standard for vets and pet owners and even parents of children. I find too much is forgiven in today's society and its increasingly difficult to seek justice. In all honesty, I don't see any criminal standards being implemented in the near future. Too many people agree that a pet is a piece of property and as long as a pet is property and not a life nothing will change. My initial comment was meant to be interpreted in it simplest form. I would love for their to be some actual form of justice on both sides, but a lot would need to change. For one vets would need to stop protecting their own, this seems to be a big issue. You'd be hard pressed to find a vet that would speak out against another, they tend to watch each others backs. Perhaps I expect too much from society, in that I believe if you know there was wrong doing then you should be honest about it.

William March 10th, 2009 04:15:02 AM

Unfortunately I see too many pets sufferring as the direct result of bad owner behavior. I would love to fine em, lock em up, ban them from owning pets for life or just kick their butts sometime. But where do you draw this line? How about the puppy infected with parvo virus because the owner vaccinated himself or did not vaccinate at all? The dog hit by a car because the owner did not confine it? The dog with the broken leg that fell out of the back of the truck. The dog dying with advanced heartworm disease because the owner did not give prevention? The cat dying with FIV because it was not confined indoors or vaccinated? The dog with dystocia (difficult birth) because of a previously diagnosed pelvic fracture and the owner disregarded the advice to spay this dog (owned by a school board member). The suffocating obese pomeranian with a tracheal collapse that got heavier and heavier every year despite weight loss recommendations? These are real examples of things I see regularly. But, these people show up at my office wanting me to help them. I won't be around long if I start turning these folks in to the local law enforcement, as the laws and our society exist, nothing will likely happen to them anyway. I have testified as an expert witness in more obvious cases of neglect and cruelty and it is amazing how hard it is to get one of these cases successfully prosecuted. Unless it is intentional I just go on try to educate them and help the pet however I can.

Hobson March 10th, 2009 07:21:18 AM

Hobson, I am going to try to address each example you proposed.

"But where do you draw this line?" With logical and rational thought. There is a difference between someones whose dog ran out and was hurt by a car and someone who won't provide health care for their pet because its too expensive for them.

How about the puppy infected with parvo virus because the owner vaccinated himself or did not vaccinate at all? I see nothing wrong with the owner vaccinating themselves as long as they have thoroughly looked into and are fully aware of the risks. To be honest sometimes its better to vaccinate at home, the same risks exist in both a vets office and a home. The pet could have an adverse reaction to the vaccine with either scenario. If you did not vaccinate at all then we run into a very tricky realm, because you'd have to ask yourself did they not vaccinate at all? or did they simply refuse to follow an absurd vaccination schedule? Realize that most vets and state laws tell you to vaccinate every year and there are even vets that do so every 6 months. If they have never vaccinated then that is cause for concern, because it could very well mean they never provided medical care for their pet and that to me is neglect.

The dog hit by a car because the owner did not confine it? Accidents happen, this can happen to anyone, with a pet and even with our own children. These things happen in the blink of an eye and sometimes its not the parents or owners fault, but a careless individual.

The dog with the broken leg that fell out of the back of the truck. There should be liability with this. Anyone who puts another living being in the back of a truck is a moron. The backs of trucks were never designed to hold passengers.

The dog dying with advanced heartworm disease because the owner did not give prevention? Liable, it is an owners responsibilty to take their pet in for annual checkups. I personally skip my own checkups and go 2-5 years without one, but never have I nor will I skimp on a pet or child of mine. If you miss a checkup and are ill because of it then thats your problem not the health provider. I do realize however, that not many people see it this way.

The dog with dystocia (difficult birth) because of a previously diagnosed pelvic fracture and the owner disregarded the advice to spay this dog (owned by a school board member). I'm just gonna answer this one with, can I beat them senseless? This goes back to common sense, if you are informed that this is a serious risk and its very easy for a pet to get pregnant and you ignore then I classify you as part of the human species that should be extinct.

The suffocating obese pomeranian with a tracheal collapse that got heavier and heavier every year despite weight loss recommendations? liable, this is neglect. Another can I beat them answer. Obescity in any species can cause serious health issues and is not something anyone should ignore.

Your right about the laws, to be honest I sometimes wonder why we even have them as most of the time they serve no purpose. I also understand how hard it can be to try to educate people as many people will either not care or not listen. It's a very difficult thing because even when you educate them, they may not follow your suggestions. I think this is why I could never be a vet, I am very blunt and in those cirumstances it would not bode well for me.

William March 10th, 2009 07:57:11 AM

Ugghhh 

 What's wrong with people like her? I wonder what she really wanted. 

 Think you handled the situation appropriately.. but it took a lot out of you..

================================

art grass 

John March 10th, 2009 08:12:52 AM

William, love you! If I weren't already married (happily too), I'd ask you if you were:). Especially love the part about the segment of the human species that should be extinct. The "beat them senseless" isn't bad either. Thanks for the chuckle. On a more serious (and practical) note: how do you make people treat their pets responsibly? Educating is not always effective. Some are just too far gone and/or not amenable to being educated. Those who are will mostly educate themselves. You need a change in culture (promoted by some media sweetheart) and enforcement, but how do you get enforcement if pets are still viewed as property? How do you get enforcement if there is a mortal fear of regulation? Any regulation, even humane-minded, if it is perceived to trample upon the perceived "inalienable" right to do "as damn well please" with "my property" (that's...err, dogs). Did you read the string on proposed breeder legislation and puppy mill legislation in Florida (March 3rd)? Read it and let us know what epithets surface in your mind then! Talk about irresponsibility and disregard for suffering. Will make your blood boil. Guaranteed!

Natalie Kramer March 10th, 2009 10:46:41 AM

"part of the human species that should be extinct", "Another can I beat them answer"  Hmmm, I can't neglect my dog lest people like you decide I (human) should be treated like property?  So, who's the great master that gets to decide which humans are killed off or at least speutered and/or beaten?  Sorry, you don't sound blunt to me, you sound dictatorial.  Not that I haven't had similar thoughts at times, just that I don't find them helpful in moving people towards a solution.

And, oh yes, let's treat animals like children and set up a CPS type system for them too because we know how well that's working for the children!  And, yes, I will do as I damn well please with my dogs.  That includes not giving my dog a 3 year rabies vaccine EVERY year because some stupid legislature can't keep up with the science!  Yeah, that "do as I please" knife cuts both ways.

PJBoosinger March 10th, 2009 11:07:14 AM

PJ, your sense of humor needs a bit of work. You seem to take every statement literally and then rush to argue with it and all of its possible (and impossible!) implications. Relax. No one is seriously thinking about killing off humans (in case you thought otherwise) or intending to interfere with your ability to decide what vaccination regimen is best for your dog. The "damn well please" reference was meant about people who insist on the right to do harm and to neglect undisturbed, not people who, like you seem to, make informed, carefully considered decisions for the benefit of their pets (such as on vaccines). There is a big difference. Perhaps reading the statements you are about to jump on more carefully (and at times between the lines) will help ease your fears to some extent. You will not do as you "damn well please" with your dogs because even as property, they do benefit from certain protections under the law. You may not beat them to death. You may not starve them, set them on fire, and so on. That much we have accomplished, thankfully. The discussion is now on refining laws and regulations further to protect pets from owners, such as the one described by Dr. Khuly at the top of this string, or such as the in the examples Hobson gave.

Natalie Kramer March 10th, 2009 11:39:49 AM

A lot of these bad pet owners I speak of fit a certain profile: "I can't afford it"-but still have a pack of cigarettes in their pocket. Let their kids ride without seatbelts. Don't even attempt to confine their pets. Smoke while they are pregnant. See em in the convenience store checkout line buying beer and lottery tickets after they have stiffed me recently. High School dropouts. No health insurance for themselves. Wait for 3 days and then pull the dog out from under the house, and want me to come in after hours because "he don't look so good" (and ask me to extend credit). Ask me to examine their pet in the car because they don't want to pay an "office visit". In 27 years of practice I have seen it all......"Dont start me talkin, I will tell you everything I know." :)

Hobson March 10th, 2009 11:52:54 AM

Hobson, that's just awful. About their kids too, BTW. When you hear us say stuff like extinct, spay and neuter (for humans), it's because we have seen it all too, believe me, and we also know how unproductive it is to try to "educate" in most of these cases, so we resort to more "effective" solutions, even if only imagined, and even if only as a joke. As rescuers, we have seen it all, and then some. At least your clients make a semblense of an effort to have you look under the house at a dog, who can't move anymore. We see worse, much worse. Thank you for caring and for trying as much as you do.

Natalie Kramer March 10th, 2009 12:01:28 PM

Unfortunately I have come across my fair share of similar pet owners. They don't want to know, as much as it is obvious that they need to know.

No simple answer. But I think I would have reported her to the RSPCA or similar authority who has "teeth".

Robin March 10th, 2009 12:47:06 PM

Natalie, I agree with what you said. Anything and everything pertaining to this is not and will never be easy. Like most things in life it's a difficult path that one could easily fall off of.

PJ, now I will be blunt, what's with the stick up your ass? As for who the great master is, I would hope that would be me, it would be a less violent path for humanity. My vast undead army of angry responsible pet owners and neglected pets would appreciate having to wipe out less of humanity in the greusome war that will insue because of my dictatorial desires. On a serious note PJ, you may want to calm yourself down, all that anger will get you nowhere. One day you may jump on someone and they may not take so well and these days you just don't know who has a propensity for violence.

Hobson, I have to say, I like you and respect you for your bluntless. I also feel for you, because it has to burn inside to see these things happen and have your hands basically tied. Sadly that type of irresponsibility is ever growing in today's society.

William March 10th, 2009 12:56:51 PM

William, I can appreciate your wit and humor, I do get it. You may want to temper your personal comments ("stick up your ass") or you may get booted. We went through a long thread about this earlier. While I don't always agree with PJB, I respect her right to a different point of view. We all bring a unique experiences to this forum that we can all learn a little from each other.

Hobson March 10th, 2009 02:05:13 PM

Dr K:

PLEASE REMOVE:

Ugghhh What's wrong with people like her? I wonder what she really wanted. Think you handled the situation appropriately.. but it took a lot out of you.. ================================ art grass John March 10th, 2009 08:12:52 AM

Fotini March 10th, 2009 03:37:24 PM

Hobson, I understand what you mean. Under normal circumstances I would not make such a personal comment. However, PJB's approach to disagreeing with me certainly was not correct and its was a borderline personal attack. I will head your warning though and in the future either ignore or report those types of responses.

William March 10th, 2009 04:57:04 PM

Sorry to fuel the fire but I just had to add my two cents.

Yes, I would run into traffic to save my child (don't have kids, but it doesn't take much self-reflection to come to this conclusion).

Yes, I would run into traffic to save someone else's child.  Not only that, I would probably run into traffic to save some grown moron who didn't look both ways like his mama should have taught him!

Yes, I would run into traffic to save my pet.  I've never had to, my dogs are always well controlled and we do obedience drills in regards to doorways, car doors, emergency downs and recalls.  Not to say it could never  happen, but we've taken steps to ensure that the potential is minimum.

I HAVE however, run into traffic on MULTIPLE occasions to save someone ELSE'S pet.  All but two times, my efforts got me bitten, too - but I saved the bloody dog, every time.  The last time the little fluffy bugger eluded me for almost an hour and a half.  Not only that, but I had a few dozen people running around with me, on foot, in cars, in vans and on bikes trying to round him up.  I finally cornered him behind a shed and made my husband pull out the speaker wire in the car so that I could fashion a slip lead to safely snag him and secure him in the car.  My hubby was not entirely pleased, but grateful that the dog was safe (and that I know how to run speaker wire... lol).  That particular dog bit me the first two times I tried to grab him, hence my reluctance to go behind the shed after him barehanded.

I also want to make a point about the pet vs. child discussion.  First, this debate will never be settled, because of such strong feelings on both sides.  However, I would like to point out that MANY, MANY children come to the parents as somewhat of a surprise (wink, wink).  A pet REQUIRES a conscious decision to take on the responsibility of caring and providing for another life.  And YES, that includes medical care, training/education, exercise, stimulation, love and dedication.

Otherwise, why are you getting a pet in the first place?  One has to wonder about the mental state of someone who can look at animals in the condition of those described above and argue in the owner's defense (well, it's ok that they let Fido get fat/sick/arthritic/infected/hungry/depressed/aggressive - after all, it's a DOG, not a HUMAN).  Sorry, but that kind of argument makes me question the morals and ethics and of the person behind the argument.  I can understand arguing the devil's advocate position - or simply objecting to the equalization of animals and humans on a personal/religious level, but to defend such neglect shows a serious lack of empathy that leaves me concerned about the welfare of the animals in the defendant's care.

Kim March 10th, 2009 05:05:13 PM

Kim, I've gone into traffic to save animals, children, and morons too.  What I was saying is I won't risk my life two of those three because I'm a caretaker and losing my life would harm the others.  Yes, children come often as surprises.  Mine didn't.  However, the majority of my pets have.  They show up on my doorstep and camp.  I usually try to find other homes for them and, failing that, my choice is then the kill shelter or my less than perfect care (which I will note is no where near as bad as many of the stories I've heard, just less than I would like and certainly less than an "only" pet would receive).

Natialie, glad it didn't come across as humor since it was intended as cynicism and sarcasm.

William: "you just don't know who has a propensity for violence"  Yeah, actually, I have a pretty good idea :)

Hobson, know we don't often agree so really big thanks.  Afraid I'm not terribly fond of those who obviously have become accustomed to dishing but object to getting it back :)

PJBoosinger March 10th, 2009 10:34:36 PM

WARNING: Keep it civil and DO NOT insult. Help keep Dolittler clean, please.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 11th, 2009 02:49:31 AM

PJ: Taking on a pet is never a surprise.  You made a conscious decision.  You could have contacted rescue groups, breed groups, sanctuarys, humane societies - but instead, you chose to take these animals into your care. The fact that you admit that your animals receive care that is "less than I would like" says to me that this argument is partially to justify to yourself that what you're doing is ok.

I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  After years in rescue and animal care, I've just seen far too many pets fall to pieces after too many  years of "slightly substandard" care.  Dr. K's dog above is a perfect example.

Kim March 11th, 2009 06:09:00 AM

Kim, taking on a pet is always a conscious decision, but that does not mean that all pets that stumble into our lives and "decide" to stay receive substandard care. Of course it's our decision to ultimately let them stay, and I agree that deciding to let them stay without taking their care seriously, or being unable to provide good care for them is wrong. However, just as not all "surprise" children are unwanted or neglected, not all "unplanned" pets have bad lives. I have had both, so I know. I had my "surprise" child in my early twenties, and everyone and his brother had advised me not to have him. I did, and have no regrets whatsoever. He is the love of my life, and raising him was absolutely a top priority for me, including serving on all possible PTA's, being involved with sports teams, doing homework, fighting to improve the school, teaching him myself (when improving the school thing was too slow), etc. He is about to graduate college right now, a huge animal lover and advocate, and a totally sweet person. I do rescue too, both locally and rescue transport. Most of our pets were planned and adopted from local shelters or rescue groups we volunteered for. Some were the result of happening upon us and staying because the "falling in love" thing happened way too fast. Do they receive substandard care? Of course not. They all receive the care they need, including chemo, behavioral, nutritional, specialist, and so on. We couldn't fathom doing anything else. We have a special fund to pay for our guys' care, both regular and emergency. Did we plan everybody? No. Did we think that rationally it was a good idea to take on more pets? No. But going back, I would not have changed a thing. So, it all depends. Unplanned doesn't have to mean substandard. Rationality has its place, of course, but so does the heart.

Natalie Kramer March 11th, 2009 08:24:18 AM

"However, the majority of my pets have.  They show up on my doorstep and camp.  I usually try to find other homes for them and, failing that, my choice is then the kill shelter or my less than perfect care (which I will note is no where near as bad as many of the stories I've heard, just less than I would like and certainly less than an "only" pet would receive)."

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Not every shelter is a kill shelter. No-kill shelters exist and if you are unable to care for these animals properly then you could and should take them to one of these shelters. Those types of shelters for the most part screen anyone who wishes to adopt and the animals would receive the proper care. You should not be keeping any animal if you are providing, "less than perfect care". Also note that some states have laws on the number of pets you may have in your home without proper licensing and some states also take into account the size of your property as well to determine the amount of pets you can have.

William March 11th, 2009 11:33:00 AM

William, The only shelters within feasible distance of my home for cats ARE kill shelters. And I'm familiar with the nearby kill shelters.  It would be kinder to toss my cats out the door to fend for themselves than turn them over to these people.  I have 3 cats, BARC gets involved when I top 30.  Not going to be an issue.  Thank goodness for us "less than perfect" folk.  I wouldn't want to be one of those like Octomom who claims to be able to achieve perfection caring for a huge brood.

William, do you really think your veiled threats cause me concern?  That really would be funny.

Kim, I could just have easily left them on the street to fend for themselves.  I had no obligation whatsoever to even toss a kibble bite out to them.  I don't need justification.  "less than I would like" is no where near "substandard".  But you're right that we do seem to disagree on this one.

PJBoosinger March 11th, 2009 12:11:48 PM

I can't believe your annual check up with all those tests is only $99. Why don't you come up to Seattle, WA and practice - I am sure with that price you won't be lacking customers.  Vet's time up here with no tests can be the price you charge for the complete annual.

sue b March 11th, 2009 12:37:41 PM

PJ, I find it hard to believe that there are only kill shleters within feasible distance to your home.

"William, do you really think your veiled threats cause me concern?  That really would be funny. " I have in no way threatened you, I don't know what brought about these false accusation and frankly I don't care. You obviously are a person who has issues that are not my problem. If what I have to say bothers you then express it in a civil manner or ignore me. We both crossed the line with each other and I am sure neither has any regrets, but we have been warned to keep it civil.

William March 11th, 2009 01:25:08 PM

I didn't hear the vet offer a discount for multiple problems, or a payments plan. Seems it was "cash on the barrelhead" and I-don't-have -to-listen- to-how-much-you-pretend-to-love-your-dog. Lawyers do pro bono work. Rescue volunteers do a lot of donating. How about vets kicking in a little bit for the poor dog's sake. It IS about the dogs. No?

Loretta March 19th, 2009 08:52:50 PM

Every vet that I have come across since doing dog rescue helps out with spay/neuters and shots for certain groups.There is no way possible for them to help every rescue or rescuer in their area and still make a living.I choose to have three large dogs and I do not expect any discount for my choice.I did not have the stamina(or intellect)to make it through vet school and I choose not to judge those that have made that sacrifice.Not that there are not bad vets out there,but I work with surgeons and they are far more self involved and money hungry than any vet I have met.

Susan March 22nd, 2009 05:18:04 PM

 To man who wrote about the guy who killed his little dogs by hitting them over the head. Actually one dog did live . But there is a reason this happened ,you can be sure the N.B.spca holds more then a little responsibility for thier actions. I have been a victim of this organization ,and I am aware of others who are victims . They didn't mine giving out information with the intend to decieve...such as a dog died on the way to the shelter...the dog was a 6 day old puppy who was being treated by the owner with the medications in plain sight . In another case they took a womans dogs and a litter of puppies ,she was informed she had to have dog houses and cement pad for the dogs ...these dogs live in n.b. and we are talking about short legged ,short haired dogs . Well an agreement was made so the women could get 2 dogs back ,so she chose dog a and dog b ..dog b was a dog that she had paid quite a bit for and she him sent from another province. As we learned  the shelter manager had adopted this dog . Or what about the seizure in which the owner chose to go to court then surrender her dogs . With out any notification her dogs were neutered and given up for adoption .....well they did say the dogs were legally signed over but they still will not devulge to the owner who had that right to sign the dogs over . I guess this makes the owner guilty before going to trial ,but guess that was the court room plan ,a crown prosecuter who does not make full disclosure,the VICTIMS lawyer Talking to the crown prosecuter a couple days before the trial ,then deciding he did not have time . Well I suppose that was good .good for the spca as the case reports read like the animals were totally uncared for . They got a warrent ,but had to make up dates that they were at the home . The TIP came from a person who had not been in the home for 8 years but wanted her to move closer to home . I believe nothing that is said by these people ,they are power junkies ,they are crying for more power but As we have learned they are there own policing agency ...not under the rcmp /or local city police ....But it did take me 5 months to find that out . This about our animals not being our property ...scarey .... So what are they going to be ....I expect how we are to take care of them should be the same . In this prov. NBspca act  is more worried about funding then explaination of the act Crulelty is no food ,no water,no shelter,and care in accordance with the regulations . You can be charged with cruelty if they find your dog has an empty water dish . The man who killed his dogs was charged for not providing the dogs with water (well how many people reading this has an empty dog dish) . But the spca on one case failed to provide food,water .shelter and care for seized dogs. They put other dogs in a kennel situation exposing them to parvo virus ...at least 2 dogs died and third was very ill but got over it . One dog owner/breeder whose dogs lived in the house was told to get dogs back each dog had to have its own dog house . How much power do you want people like this to have ,?  Elliot

elliot April 13th, 2009 03:27:07 AM

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