*sighs* I don't even know what to say, this is one of the most idiotic things I have seen. I've never been one for show dogs anyway. It's like child pageants, I can't wrap my mind around the logic of the concept. A dog should be a dog. All I have to say to these idiots screwing with nature... she bites back.

William March 13th, 2009 08:54:03 AM

Wow, I was right witcha right up until the final tirades against the organization that has nothing to do with setting breed standards other than they require that *breed* organizations set one. 

IOW, AKC (or any other umbrella organization) doesn't set standards, breed organizations do. Frankly, I think it's up to breeders to breed good dogs whether or not those dogs are rewarded in a conformation ring. And it's up to puppy buyers to educate themselves and not buy on appearances alone. Puppy buyers need to learn the health problems that exist in a breed before they buy.

Please don't perpetuate the myth that the AKC is the root of all breeding evil. I have issues with AKC's insane policies and arbitrary, nonsensical decision making and it can be argued that closed studbooks, as AKC requires, are a bad thing. But it isn't AKC who is putting dogs on the ground.

Full disclosure: I own a purebred with an AKC CH (show championship) in front of his name and several performance titles (including ones for activities which his breed is supposed to do) after his name. 

Deanna March 13th, 2009 09:22:54 AM

Oh I agree completely with you. I started to show my female labrador when she was about a year old, just for fun really. She was from a good line so I thought I could see what the show ring was all about.. Bear in mind she was extremely fit and still is, at 9 she can still run like the wind and keep up with my other younger labs. The second time in the ring with her when she didn't do very well I went to the judge afterwards just to see if I should even continue to show her. He said, "she has good lines but you REALLY need to put at least 15lbs on her, she is just too thin for the show ring". If I put 15lbs on her she would look like the good year blimp... So from now on I will just rescue the labs no one wants, get them to a good weight and let them enjoy their life with us..

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia March 13th, 2009 09:28:20 AM

Wow, I was right witcha right up until the final tirades against the organization that has nothing to do with setting breed standards other than they require that *breed* organizations set one.

IOW, AKC (or any other umbrella organization) doesn't set standards, breed organizations do.

You might want to talk to some of the breed clubs that have tried to change their standards in a direction the AKC doesn't agree with, or to get the books opened the tiny amount necessary to recognize the healthy but standard-meeting products of the Dalmation-Pointer backcross project, or the products of the boxer/corgi project that are standard-meeting boxers with naturallly bobbed tails rather than docked tails.

Terrierman is an insane, intolerant extremist, but there's a real point here, and it needs attention--and that means not letting the AKC off the hook by meekly accepting its "we're just a registry" defense.

Lis March 13th, 2009 09:53:54 AM

"Frankly, I think it's up to breeders to breed good dogs whether or not those dogs are rewarded in a conformation ring. And it's up to puppy buyers to educate themselves and not buy on appearances alone. Puppy buyers need to learn the health problems that exist in a breed before they buy. Please don't perpetuate the myth that the AKC is the root of all breeding evil "

I agree with Deanna.

You have to make the individuals responsible for perpetuating a specific trait for a fad held accountable, not the organization.  AKC is a registry, who had been actively supporting canine health for years.  (http://www.akcchf.org/)

Yes, some breeds have gone ways that without human intervention they would become extinct.  Do I support these breeds?  NO.

I am a hobby breeder and exhibitor of an AKC breed that is relatively rare.  My breed still retains it's instinct and structural ability to do what it was originally developed & bred to do (herd & hunt) as well as being fabulous companions.  Our breed has the shortest list of known genetic health issues.  Even with this information I spend loads of money on health testing and raise one, rarely two, litters a year.  AKC Champions grace my sofa and our lives.  That is just icing on the cake.   Showing dogs is an expensive hobby that we enjoy with the animals we love.

Please do not lump all of us in the same basket.

Holly March 13th, 2009 10:01:32 AM

Holly: I certainly do not lump you all. I've always been a staunch opponent of the breeder is a breeder is a breeder drivel. I do, however, see that the AKC makes it very difficult for breeds to go the way of the healthy. They support docks and crops, make healthy conformation changes difficult for certain breeds and ultimately, do not play a role in supporting dog health, which is what they should be doing. If their role is to play registry alone then they should stop putting out position statements and generally playing a role in issues outsider their jurisdiction. They can't have it both ways.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 13th, 2009 10:10:40 AM

Ah, you left one out Dr. Khuly...What about the dalmation the breeders breed for deep dark black spots spaced far apart as a preferred trait? The same gene that carries these traits also carries the inability to convert uric acid to allantoin creating a uric acid build up and urate stones. I bet dalmation breed do not disclose that one. The owner usually finds out when their dog is block heading for surgery...

Calliegoose March 13th, 2009 10:50:13 AM

Thank you Dr. Khuly for not lumping us together.  As reputable breeders we can be faced with many obsticales from PeTA and HSUS.  As I enjoy your forum and read it almost daily, I did not want your blog to be against us as well.

I just want to say again that it still is the individual breeders, not the organization, that promotes the "fads".

As another example, google Merle Poodles.  The Merle color is a cosmetic issue, but if people do not know about the issues linked to the color genes, and breed merle to merle, they can produce homozygous merle pups that are deaf and/or blind.   That is definitely not good for the breed.

I have not seen Merle Poodles advertised as AKC registered.  The ones I have found are from an off shoot registry. 

The off shoot registeries do not care about living conditions or record keeping of the dogs.  They are a sole registery so people can have a dog "with papers".  Check out the local pet shops and see how many of those cute puppies for sale are actually AKC puppies.  Very, very few are.  That is because the mass breeders do not want to conform to the AKC's kennel and record inspections.

In a weekly dog show magazine, AKC judges are advertising that their breed of choice, a docked breed, should not be awarded at a show if it is natural tailed.  These ads are expensive!  Yet they advertise quite often their opinion.  These are the people, members of the parent club for this breed, that write the breed standard.  Not the AKC themselves. 

You must reach out to the fanciers and exhibitors of the individual breed.  They, the breed club members, have the power to change their standards, not the AKC themselves.

Holly March 13th, 2009 10:59:30 AM

Lis: Must defend Terrierman. He is most certainly not insane, nor should we me making disparaging statements about people's sanity here. As to intolerance and extremism: Though he and I disagree on many canine health issues I've never found him to be intolerant of my views. Extreme? Perhaps, but that's more likely an expressionistic tendency. I find him, "pleasantly eccentric" and a voice worth reckoning with in terms of dog health and breed standards. Ultimately, I believe he has the best for dogs in mind...as I also believe of all of you. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 13th, 2009 11:00:23 AM

I think it's sad, the silliness, selfishness, and vanity that perpetuates this type of breeding. Shameful. So much for us being the higher evolved creatures.

anna March 13th, 2009 11:52:24 AM

extremes are an issue in any breed, anytime. The bulldog you have featured here is of a type that was common in California in the 80s and early 90s. You won't find a dog like that being competetive in most regions of the US now (thank God!). The bulldogs featured in the ABC segment were stumpy, but I know for a fact that there were more athletic dogs at the show. 

He is still the type loved and adored by puppy mill and commercial breeders as they make for very wrinkly puppies which is what the public seems to crave, sigh.

Short legs and short skulls are the two biggest gripes I hear from breeders and breeder-judges. The dogs are supposed to be balanced.  The best ones often look snipey and leggy as puppiens. They are supposed to look strong and vigorous, have an arched neck, big wide open nares and straight legs. Movement is described, in the standard, as unrestrained, free and vigorous. What is sometimes shown and rewarded i the ring is not only sad and overdone, it actually already in violation of the standard as written.  

When the standard was written words like massive and extreme were comparative descriptions to similar features in working and active sporting breeds, most of which, like the labrador, were all more lightly and athletically built than their modern show line counterparts. So words such as "short" "massive" etc... had a very different measure in the late 19th century than they do today.

When our standard comes up for review, that will need to be addressed. But most of the dogs bred are not being bred for show and they are bred for extremes because extreme puppies are cute. 

The bulldog pictured here is a train wreck. Now the job is to convince the buying public of that fact, as well as the all around judges out there who judge by the pound.

Development of screening tests for breed specific issues is crucial. If for example, all bulldogs used for breeding had to pass trachea (in development with OFA!) and upper-airway screening (working out the details!) and basic orthopedic screening exams as well (mine do, my choice), then the extremes would fade away as morphology would find it's "natural limit" before which it begins to impact health. The same could apply to size, head shape etc.. in toys as well.

The big nightmare for me right now is that with soaring popularity, those bulldog breeders breeding for health and active, athletic dogs are outnumbered twenty to one by BYBs puppymills and those jumping on the make a buck on bulldogs bandwagon. And yes, there are show breeders too who need a good hard smack, I'm not denying this.

BTW, in 21 years of bulldogs I have never seen/used a rape rack/breeding cradle. I  helped a friend last weekend breed her young male for the first time. It took him about ten minutes as he had more enthusiasm than skill but yes, they can breed naturally. The dogs were capable of free whelping, most of the time, before they became grossly exaggerated several decades ago, Those who are breeding for more athletic, balanced dogs are beginning to have success with bitches whelping without veterinary assistance once again.

So my dream is that all dogs that are shown would need to be screened for general and breed specific issues. Would they have to get perfect results to proceed? No. BUT all results would be public. I suspect that this would reduce extremes of conformation in the show far more effectively than simply changing the wording of standards that are often ignored anyway.

JenniferJ March 13th, 2009 12:20:09 PM

Holly: do your dogs actually herd and hunt or are you just relying on that "instinct" to be there because there were working dogs generations ago?

I don't buy the "AKC is just a registry" line either. Nor do I buy that they care about healthy dogs, or that they aren't holding hands with plenty of petstore puppymillers. Hunte Corporation, anybody? And then of course there's this: http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Bernardi_08/bernardi_108.html

Are there good AKC breeders out there? Certainly. I've worked for a couple. But what made them good had nothing to do with the AKC. What made them good was that they cared truly about their dogs, their breeding programs, and what they were doing. They'd have been just as good if they'd been breeding UKC dogs, even if their pups didn't come with that AKC "brand name".

The Amish guy who is breeding his known dysplastic dog sells them with AKC papers. Buyer beware. AKC doesn't care. A registration fee is a registration fee. Healthy dogs is not a priority.

Katie March 13th, 2009 01:03:28 PM

Dr. Khuly, you may think I'm unduly harsh about Terrierman, but read what he has to say about Chinese Cresteds--which are in fact a generally healthy and non-extreme breed. And, it should be noted, a breed in which the show ring pressure has been against extremes for a variety of reasons. Yes, they have issues (shared with the poodle and some other breeds) with progressive retinal atrophy, but a potential for blindness in later years is not the same thing as structural inability to breathe properly, and there's strong pressure in the show community to test your dogs and to screen pedigrees to reduce the incidence of it. And yes, in the Hairless there are issues with lack of complete dentition, but in spite of the AKC standard specifically allowing incomplete or absent dentition in Hairless Cresteds, the pressure among show breeders is that "you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Hairy Hairless and a Powderpuff by looking in its mouth." They are breeding for healthy, complete dentition.

Not extreme? Not intolerant? As I said, read what he has to say about Chinese Cresteds. And while you're reading that, here's a bit of information to contemplate: There are no homozygous Hairless Cresteds. When you mate Hairless to Hairless, you don't get deformed Hairless pups; you get healthy pups, about 1/4 of whom on average will be Powderpuff Cresteds.

Lis March 13th, 2009 01:16:50 PM

Yes Katie, my dogs do herd sheep and will hunt rodents. When weather permits we go 2-3 times a month for herding lessons so they can enjoy what they were bred to do. I do not want to won and care for a personal flock of sheep. And, unfortunately, you can ask the owner of my grooming shop who has pet rats about hunting. My favorite bitch snatched one of her precious pets quicker than the blink of an eye. It was not pretty.

Holly March 13th, 2009 01:21:24 PM

Lis: As one of my friendly emailers just pointed out: Maybe you're right but be careful what you wish for. Terrierman might actually enjoy being labeled an insane, intolerant extremist. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 13th, 2009 01:30:04 PM

I just saw a chihuahua like this at a coffee shop the other day -- peeping out of a fashionable woman's designer purse. It really did look both more "pure bred" and more "there's something wrong here" than the "regular" chihuahuas that proliferate this town's poorer neighborhoods; I didn't realize it had its own special name. In cats, doesn't "applehead" usually refer to the more natural headshape? Oh well.

Sarah March 13th, 2009 02:05:36 PM

There is no breed standard that requires ear cropping. The AKC breed clubs have all eliminated it. Please don't say the AKC, or it's member clubs don't evolve with changing tastes, just because it isn't as fast as you would like. And don't think I'm some AKC guy either. I don't AKC register my GSP's. I have no use for it. NAVHDA's registry is as good or better for accuracy, and my pups need to be NAVHDA registered to participate in NAVHDA testing. You can take a NAVHDA registration and get an AKC registration, if you wanted one. Why does the AVMA lump ear cropping with tail docking? And then is silent on dew claw removal? Tail docking at two days of age is exactly akin to dew claw removal. We use the same instruments in the same manner. While I'm not one of the extremists who claims this is painless, I can assure you the pup is in discomfort for less than a minute. There is no anesthetic risk, and the wounds are about the size of and heal about as quickly as the navel. I am not in favor of putting any dog under anesthesia and lopping off tails, ears or toes (unless it's to correct a problem). I don't think any dog should have it's tail docked or dew claws removed after 4 days of age, and I think 4 days is pushing the issue. I don't think any sickly pup should be docked or dewed. I also think such a pup should not be penalized in the show ring or anywhere else. Our dogs are hunting dogs. We do not sell any GSP's to non-hunting homes and feel the removal of dew claws and tips of tails (we dock at a length much longer than the AKC standard calls for - the dog keeps about 75% of it's tail) prevents injury. [img]http://marshfieldkennel.com/images/-dsc0653_german_short_haired_pointer_pups__c__dusty_perin.jpg[/img] We feel the discomfort is worth it to the dog; much like drawing blood or obtaining a stool sample "from the source" is uncomfortable but beneficial to the dog. Some states have jumped on the AVMA's recent "refinement" of their stance on cropping and docking to introduce legislation to list these procedures as animal cruelty. Whatever you think of cropping and docking, they are not the same as setting a cat on fire or drowning a litter of puppies. It's the AKC's job to oppose anything the HSUS is for. The AVMA would be wise to do so as well. The HSUS opposes pet ownership. If they are successful in all that they seek, the only veterinarians will be wildlife veterinarians. HSUS plans to incrementally eliminate pet ownership one tiny bite at a time. So now they are banning certain procedures, once on the books, they will expand the list. Maybe they think canine castration is mostly cosmetic? I could make an impassioned argument. HSUS will also seek to ban one type of dog after another on the grounds that the traits are unhealthy. I don't know if you picked Frenchies, or the dogs that you rescued just happend to be French Bulldogs, but they are a good example for my arguent. You can look forward to French Bulldogs having dew claws (no big deal, right?). Brachycephalic dogs are considered abhorrent to a lot of folks (and I have trouble with it myself) so you can plan on the breed being legislated out of existence or growing a snout. I'm sure someone thinks their legs aren't "natural" and will pass some law against anything stubby. Keep in mind, folks will use the American Bulldog as a "good example of a bad example" but the Frenchies will get caught in the same net. Also, the breed is intentionally bred without a tail (or with a kind of nasty tail IMO). Since wolves have tails and tails are used for canine communication, all pets should have tails and the law will follow simply by adding one trait at a time to the "banned from breeding" list. I'm sure someone has already determined that coat must go. It isn't very wolf like, it must be too short to keep the dog properly healthy. Eventually, if the HSUS plans work, dog breeding itself will be banned. The AVMA seems to rely on the HSUS's inability to achieve it's ultimate goal, but they've been pretty successful so far. I don't think the AKC show ring gets it "right" in most breeds. If I was king of the dog world, all sporting and working dogs would have to title in their original jobs prior to entering the show ring. I don't like apple-head Chihuahuas, teacup anything or a lot of other traits I find abominable in a lot of breeds. I also feel that if I don't stand up for the folks with those traits, they won't be there to stand up for me when the HSUS comes after my wife's Corgis' dwarf legs, then my GSP's. I find it quite the dilemma for the veterinary profession to attack the folks they do (and side with the folks who are out to destroy veterinary medicine). Without the AKC and purebred dog culture for the past century, would dog ownership be anywhere near what it is? Would dog owners feel like there pets are family members? Or more like a farm animal? And what does that mean for the level and cost of the care they provide their dogs? As much as I despise them, without puppy-mills, back-yard breeders, pet stores and idiots who don't have their dogs spayed and neutered -- in addition to dogs intentionally bred to have health issues -- my wife wouldn't have enough dogs at her practice for us to live in our modest home and pay our bills. Maybe a little dialog between the AVMA and the AKC is in order. Maybe the AVMA could have found a single person to speak in favor of cropping and docking prior to their new opinion statement. Some education - in both directions - needs to happen.

Todd Chrisman March 13th, 2009 02:10:26 PM

Have never been big on this stuff. It seems more like an obssevive complusive control disorder then anything.  A weird ego trip.  Shows, awards . . blah!

Evet March 13th, 2009 02:41:03 PM

As a Chihuahua owner, I can say that this is definitely an odd thing that infiltrates Chi meet-ups now and then. I have found that because the AKC supports this "apple head" thing, now every day people use it as a snobbish sticking point: "Oh, I see you have a 'deer head' Chihuahua....the breed standard is applehead" blah blah blah. The people that point this out also typically have a designer bag and $200 jeans and an attitude to match. Sigh.
As long as the dogs are healthy, that's all I care about. And the fact that my dog is the prettiest & healthiest in the room! *wink*
I will say, watching the Eukanuba show last week, I stopped in my tracks when the Pekingese waddled out. I was sickened, and sad. I mean, all signs of DOG were gone. I know there are some odd breeds out there, and I struggle with the extremely "man made" ones. And to see a "natural breed" like Chihuahuas get bred/manipulated into something else enirely from where it started makes me fear that Terrierman's shirt is spot on!

CreatureofHabit March 13th, 2009 02:57:23 PM

Evet, I understand the perception. Particularly as most people's experience is through big pageants and spectacles like Eukanuba or Westminister.

But the "show world" runs a through a huge spectrum of both good and bad.

At it's worst, it is a popularity contest and drenched in politics.

At it's best, it is an opportunity for dedicated individuals to gather sometimes as much as 20-30 weekends of the year, see not only winning dogs but their offspring and siblings who may only be shown once or twice, visit health testing clinics, socialize their dogs and see whose temperament is solid enough to tolerate the travel and constant exposure to strange dogs and also tons of new people and to discuss and find out in depth and through experience whose dogs are sound, outgoing etc... Not to mention opportunities for CGC and ATTS testing as well as the many OFA and genetic screening teats offered conveinently at shows.

At their worst, individuals are only concerned with ribbons and points and the dogs are just a means to an end. To get bragging rights not to help select breeding stock.

At their best are the responsible breeders traveling to test out dogs and learn all they can at every show, not by looking at a dogs records but at the dogs (and owners) themselves. the winning is fun, but the ribbons generally go in a box. 

The ego tripping people ask the dogs, what will you do for me?

The responsible breeders who show ask themselves, what can I do for my dogs and my breed? 

Many many "show folks" also are actively involved in rescue. Last year our breed rescue Divisionally (four state area) rescued 167 dogs, locally 57. One was bred by a club member, one. And she immediately took the dog back. As did the owner of the stud dog who sired another rescue.  Almost all the dogs came from back yard breeders, foreign importers or gimmick or commercial breeders who claim that they will be healthier because they are not from "show lines".  I can assure you, that was not the case for many of these dogs. they were not bred by show breeders, but by and large that's who picked up the pieces. In many breed club "cultures" participation in or support of rescue is expected, and there's  not much ego trip or glory involved with fostering a dog with combined sarcoptic mange and ringworm. Or in wrestling an unsocialized dog three times a day to deal with medicating their eyes.

Being involved with rescue, being a responsible breeder who stays in touch with dogs and owners for the dogs lifetime, means that you are highly motivated to breed for health. Even those of us whose main testing ground is the show ring

Last year, one of my young dogs was very worried and concerned when I brought home a foster who needed a palate clip. My dogs have had appropriate length palates, normal tracheas and big nares for 4-5 generations and he had never heard another bulldog who made funny sounds when it was stressed. (my dogs don't snore much either, only when they get their heads in a weird position and then only softly). 

Also, while our dogs are registered via AKC and shows are held under their rules and auspices, that does not mean we all agree with their policies. the out cry over AKCs deal with Petland being a good example. Hopefully reforms to some of their policies will come about as a result. But when you see a dog come in with severe issues as a result of exaggerated conformation, it's important to remember that the pet market is the primary reason a majority of dogs are bred, and this along with the internet has spawned uncounted fads and fashions in "canine design" all with no "help" whatsoever from dog shows or dog clubs.

Even if all the standards were rewritten tomorrow, in breeds like the bulldog where probably only 5% of breeders have ever even thought about showing how would that make a bit of difference? The responsible breeders are already trying to correct issues even as the commercial and internet and BYB breeders and sellers ignore all of that and breed for more wrinkle and bulk and pretty designer colors because that's what they can sell, no questions asked, to the public at large.

All a very frustrating situation, and a complicated one too. But please to not dismiss all of us who choose to sometimes show our dogs or paint us all with the same brush.

JenniferJ March 13th, 2009 04:04:06 PM

If you look at the history of AKC and CFA, their intentions were good at the start.  While there is a complex relationship between these umbrella organizations and the breed groups and breeders, they both (along with the newer umbrella groups that are developing) contribute to the breed health problems by not standing their ground.  None of them get off the hook in my book if they aren't breeding or setting standards or whatever for less than the best health of the animals.  I can't see a single good reason for them not to require submission of health test results as a prerequisite for conformation showing so that they can have a preliminary "grade" for health that is factored in with appearance standards by the judges.

I've had 5 animals over the years that could have been registered but, since I didn't intend to show or breed, all were sterilized and none were registered.  Nonetheless, I used to enjoy going to the shows from time to time.  I stopped going about 25 years ago when the health contoversies became apparent and I couldn't stand watching the breeds decline.  It is complicated but it also needs to be dealt with and only the breeders are in a position to do it; individually, in the breed organizations, and collectively through their umbrella groups.  In some ways it is really too bad that the elite who started these organizations ever lowered their standards because properly breeding animals is expensive and lowering the standards to reduce the costs has had a very serious price for the animals.

The CFA website doesn't have pictures of their early Siamese champions and that's because those would actually support the group that split off with their "traditional" Siamese.  I've watched this breed evolve into a creature I'd not want in my home.  I've watched the Labrador Retriever evolve from a healthy, sane hunting dog into blubber butts at Westminster.  Shiba Inus took decades to come back after WWII and they've become "popular" lately.  There was already too much mill breeding of them and there will be more now.  Like Siamese, poor breeding will result in health problems too which, also like the Siamese, will often be expressed in high strung insanity.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 04:47:37 PM

And I thought Terrierman was quite sedate while on ABC.  And the more I learn, the more I begin to understand how he became so outspoken.  Off to buy a T-shirt now... :)

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 04:53:25 PM

"There is no breed standard that requires ear cropping. The AKC breed clubs have all eliminated it."

Maybe I'm not understanding some minor point here, but the AKC all but lambasted the AVMA for its ear crop/tail dock position statement opposing cosmetic surgery. Historical breed issues yada yada...

Moreover, if breed clubs have eliminated the crops and docks as a requisite standard then why do none of these dogs compete? Is the AKC not complicit by effectively supporting the right to maintain crops and docks in any given breed? 

Tail docks and ear crops are purely cosmetic. That's the difference. The dewclaw removal is less defensively cosmetic, though many convincingly argue that it is, as well.

And yes, my Frenchies are their own horrorshow example but recall--I do not breed them nor do I assist in their breeding. I do not recommend them as a breed nor do I recommend any breed. (I used to but don't feel "purebrededness" is necessarily in the best interest of any individual animal, much though I'd support anyone's right to keep and breed purebreds with care.)

Dr. Patty Khuly March 13th, 2009 04:54:53 PM

Affenspinchers are agood example of a traditionally cropped and docked breed that is transitioning over. Why? because someone with an exceptionally nice affens began showing him uncropped and undocked and he began to be a successful competitor. 

As more dogs arrive au naturale from Europe I think that people will become accustomed to the look and cropping and docking will decline.

I have two toy fox terrier champions. Nice, overal very natural, if little, dogs. In honor of their terrier ancestry, they are a docked breed. When and if the standard is altered to allow un-docked tails, it will not bother me but hoo-boy, un-docked tft tails are pretty funky, they are LONG, snakey and some flip up and over the ears. breeding a more attractive tail (and one less likely to be injured) will probably take a while

JenniferJ March 13th, 2009 05:07:39 PM

According to the AKC website Doberman Pinscher standard... "Ears normally cropped and carried erect...  Tail docked at approximately second joint."  http://www.akc.org/breeds/doberman_pinscher/  Exactly the same as shown on the national club's standard at http://www.dpca.org/standard.html.  Just one example of many I'm sure.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 05:34:56 PM

While the AKC doesn't mandate ear cropping and tail docking, this too is SOP for almost all breeds: "Faults

The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation."  [emphasis added]  How perfect would a dog have to be to win after being mandatorily penalized for normal ears and tail?  If I were breeding to show, I'd call that a mandate to crop and dock.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 05:42:17 PM

Reminds me of some of the BBC discussions :(  

As other posters mentioned, it is NOT the AKC that sets breed standards, individual parent clubs set the standards, standards may be changed every 5 years routinely without much review, in between the 5 years time period changes can be made but with petition and review only - this is probably what the other poster above was referring to when a breed club was given a hard time or it was difficult to change their standard.  Also, some breed clubs with poor management (which are many) do not put their paperwork in for standard changes correctly and are denied - changing a standard is an event the AKC takes very seriously - a breed club MUST put a standard change to a vote by the breed clubs membership and it must be passed by 3/4 or 75%.    Breed clubs are ran by volunteers which are elected by the membership, the membership are breeders and pet owners of that breed.  So, as another poster said it does boil down to us breeders !  As much as I hate clubs and breed politics I renew and remain as active as I can stomach in my breed club.

The AKC is trying to support and encourage more health testing with the advent of CHIC and allowing breed clubs to create health foundations that are somewhat seperate from parent clubs but endorsed by the AKC CHF and the parent club.  These health foundations will have several advantages, here are a few :

Newfoundlands

http://www.ncacharities.org/

Rotties

http://www.rottweilerhealth.org/

In regards to cropping and docking - it is not mandatory, the AKC's response to the AVMA was from the standpoint that it is an owners decision to crop- which I support btw - my breed is a traditionally cropped breed and sometimes I do crop and sometimes I don't but it is my decision.

In regards to dobermans - I just saw an uncropped dobie bitch take BOB last weekend, uncropped dobe's are winning as are uncropped Dane's, boxers, etc...

Again, it is not the AKC but the breeders and pet owners who are responsible for the standard, the health foundations, the testing requirements and the breed in its enitirety.  Even if your not a breeder and you have a purebred dog and love that bred you can contribute - AKC breed clubs always need help!

ps. I love it when people say they are against the AKC and purebred dogs, but never take the time to thank the evil AKC breeders whose registrations and donations support the Canine Health Foundations research which funds millions of dollars of canine health research every year...which in turn benefits all dog owners with the development of DNA tests, drugs, treatments, other tests and a ton more.  The picture is bigger than a dog show ! oh and forgot the scholarship awards to vet students and ....etc.. 

Or maybe it is only purebred dogs that have health problems...oh yeah mutts NEVER get sick.....

sorry...more than two cents ;)

LC March 13th, 2009 06:46:59 PM

re: PJBoosinger - your interpretation of the dobie penalties is incorrect.  All standards specify if ears/tails are modified in some breeds modification of ears/tails is a disqualification.  the penalty section refers to things such as length of body, ear set but not cropping, markings etc..... Go to the DPCA site and you can download the judging seminars if you want to see in detail how a dobie is to be judged.

re: smaller and smaller toy breeds - I put that more on pop culture than the AKC and breeders, again demand, demand, demand - I have a friend who breeds and shows Yorkies and she is bombarded with calls and emails every week for 2 pound yorkies like Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears - yes she yells at the callers and hangs up but the next breeder who answers will try their hardest to make that 2 pound yorkie for $5,000 !

LC March 13th, 2009 06:55:23 PM

Ummm.. perhaps I misunderstood the situation, but it was MY impression that the AKC registered/approved judges were the ones responsible for determining the "fads" and the "correct interpretation" of any written standard.

As far as defending the English Bulldog - come on now.  If you were breeding human beings with the same deformities, the public outcry would be condemning you to a certainly horrific punishment for such moral transgressions. 

The breeding of more useless dogs (which, as Terrierman points out time and time again are NOT the same dogs you see true hunters, coursers, militia working with) who can not perform their original function - and the continued breeding of dogs such as the Chinese Crested who serves NO particular purpose other than as something to be aesthetically enjoyed (at the detriment of its health, no less) is something that a truly responsible breeder could NEVER condone.

In addition, to claim that the AKC's little "health missions" are anything but a PR ploy is ridiculous.  I'll believe they're in it for the dogs when they stop relying on puppy mills and mass commercial breeders to fund their operation. 

As for Terrierman's sanity, well... let's just say we don't agree on everything.  But it's funny you should post this today Dr. K - I just bought that T-shirt yesterday.  Should stir up some mud at work.  ;O)  To those of you who are NOT familiar with his work, read it.  Read LOTS of it.  Not just one article, or two articles.... read as much as you can sit through.  And try not to let emotion get involved. 

Do you think I don't want to to reach through the screen and choke him when he starts going on about corn in dog food and OTC flea treatments?  Yikes - but I remember how I felt before I had a dog in my life that made me second guess the nutritional value of kibble, the chemicals we put onto and into our companions, and the thousands of unnatural compounds we expose them to daily.  I remember how blissfully unaware I was of the consequences, and the ability of a few simple lifestyle changes to improve my dog's health, wellbeing and longevity.

The point is, we don't all know it all, all the time.  And no, perhaps I can't provide Terrierman with a solid enough (for his criteria, anyhow) argument as to why corn should not be used in pet foods just yet, but I respect the fact that his point of view is based on personal experience and the science he's found.

That's the one thing you CAN count on him for - brutal and scientifically backed honesty.

And personally, regardless of the methods he uses (although I have to admit I find his writing charismatic, even when I DON'T agree with him) I can NOT fault a man for using science, logic and common sense to pose a thoughtful argument.

I particularly love his distaste of "anonymous posters" - especially in light of the fact that Deanna and Holly have both conveniently failed to mention the breed they dabble in.  Oh, and for the record, Terrierman would have a word (or two, or ten) about someone claiming a dead pet rat as an example of hunting instinct.  Again, I suggest some in depth reading of his blog - particularly about "working" terriers.

Kim March 13th, 2009 07:30:49 PM

LC: I want to point out that I'm not anti-purebred either (although I am the proud owner of several mutts).  The dog who led me on my path to a more natural life for my dogs was a purebred, champion sired Golden Retriever. 

It is because of him (and his hypothyroidism, epilepsy, hip dysplasia, alopecia and AIHA) that I have an issue with closed registry breeding in breeds with high levels of genetic defect and overly high inbreeding coefficients.

But what I TRULY despise is the breeding of dogs whose looks are DIRECTLY related to the problems at hand.  Dysplasia in overly huge Danes and Bernards, eye problems due to excessive wrinkles in Bassets, Bloodhounds and Shar Peis... the list goes on and on and includes breeds like Dobermans, Shepherds, Ridgebacks, Chihuahuas, Frenchies, Bulldogs, Bullmastiffs, Bordeauxs, Mastiffs, Dalmations, Collies (can I stop yet??), Pugs, Pekingese, Cavaliers, Aussies, Shelties, Bull Terriers, Bostons, Cresteds.... ok, I'm starting to depress MYSELF here.

Some breeds are worse than others, but the point is that the AKC accepts, condones, and registers judges who interpret these standards in such a manner that not only perpetuate these issues, but continue to exaggerate them!

Until they step forward and insist, as the KC has *begun* to do, that health come before all else (and quite frankly, temperament and instinct should come second, and looks should be a FAR distant criteria) they are the governing body, and well... the buck stops here.

These days mixed breeds (shih-poos, puggles, labradoodles, etc) are commanding just as high a price as papered purebreds.  Why?  Because it's finally been realized that AKC papers are worth about as much as the paper they're printed on.  Do I condone these pricey mutts?  Hell, no.  But it is a good indicator of just how far low the AKC has fallen in the eyes of the consumer.  Imagine if the AKC actually stood for something!  Like, the health and wellbeing of dogs for example!  Imagine if AKC papers ENSURED that at the very least your puppy's parents were tested for a required number of diseases/defects, that the kennels maintained a level of care, and the standards were written to promote healthy dogs capable of doing the jobs they were meant to do!

And frankly, those breed clubs who refuse to get on board should be stricken from the registry.  How many ridgeback owners do you think knew the medical cause of that ridge on their puppy's back?  Do you think many of them would have had second thoughts about perpetuating such a breed if they DID know?

Methinks so.

Kim March 13th, 2009 07:48:10 PM

Hairlessness in dogs is not a detriment to their health. The hairless pila dogs of south america that Cresteds are descended from are a 4000 year old type of dog (which is archaelogoically proven, not breed club fairy tale). Terrierman's entire rant about them was based off the fact he doesn't know what the difference between a 'semi-lethal' and 'prenatal lethal' gene is. His accusations against the breed's health were based solely on that misunderstanding, and taking the known genetic defect list of the breed out of context and claiming all those things are endemic in the breed, which is patently false. You can think hairless dogs are ugly, but sickly because of their hairlessness they are NOT. There is not ONE health defect in the breed that stems from their lack of hair, unless you count occaisonal acne as a debilitating disease.

The problem with his posts on Cresteds, is that the breed has always suffered from lack of knowledge  public dislike because of their looks, so many people are just going to accept his evaluation of them as scientifically and factually sound, which is unfortunate. Most of his posts are correct and verifiable, but his screed on Cresteds was full of bias and assumption and misunderstanding on his part.

Pai March 13th, 2009 07:52:40 PM

Just noticed my terrible spelling and grammar.  Should be "these are some pictures" and not These is a pictures".

Charle G March 13th, 2009 08:28:02 PM

Sorry I had to post one more pic I found on labradornet.com This will give you an idea of how the lab has changed over the years as well.  If I sign up for an account can I edit my own posts?

Charles G March 13th, 2009 08:32:31 PM

All of this is easy enough to resolve; return to the practice of breeding to a standard of PERFORMANCE as opposed to some arbitrary standard of beauty.Open the registries to include outcrosses to animals to preserve heritable skills and increase health and longevity. The Basenji people did it successfully, as did the Dalmation folks.

Many European countries still practice this novel idea.  The dog has to get a performance title in a field relative to his original purpose before he can either be used for breeding or before conformation awards will be given.

Border Collie stock dog trials will recognize any dog if it can demonstrate the necessary skills of the working dog.  If you have a Pug that can lift, fetch and shed sheep, they will register it on merit as a Border Collie.

For dogs that have no specific design outside that of a companion animal, why should it be too much to ask that they be sound, healthy and with the reasonable expectation that they live long and worry free lives?

I have been involved with dogs and dog shows for decades.  I have worked for professional handlers, prepared dogs for the ring and finished more than a few of my own in a variety of breeds.  I watched the decline of my favorite breed to fads and the Popular Sire Syndrome to the point where I was hard pressed to find suitable sires for fear of more heritable diseases than I was prepared to refund money for. So I stopped. 

I was witness to quite a few things that made me think twice about dogs, dog shows and the future of the purebred dog in this country and elsewhere. 

The AKC only became involved with the health of dogs when they were hard pressed to do so, blithely unaware of their singular influence on the decline of the health of the pure bred dog population. Take a look at when they enacted the funding for their research.  The AKC is not singularly responsible for the decline in Pure bred dogs, but they play no small role either. They are the ones who promote the concept that AKC registered is the hallmark of "quality" and they are the ones who foster the idea that there is no genetic shift from the show dogs and the working dogs.  That is BS of the highest order.

If breed clubs are the ones solely responsible for the alterations and design of their "standards", then maybe they should take a hard look at what it is they are trying to propagate. 

The closed gene pools of some of these breeds is devastating to dogs.  Retrievers are dying in record numbers and at young ages from insidious diseases that can be wiped from their gene pools with judicious outcrosses and testing for heritable diseases.

When you look at a parent club publication and the greatest number of advertisements are obits for young dogs who die of things unheard of even 20 years ago, it's time to take a long hard look at what is happening and reformulate a plan to stop it.

Open the Stud Books, judicious and ruthless testing for genetic disorders and accountability for 'breeders' and base the registry on the merits of performance and truly allow form to follow function.

Linda Kaim March 13th, 2009 09:07:36 PM

In Norway, the elghund (Elk Dog) has to pass field hunting tests for conformation championships.  For a 50 pound dog that is supposed to hold an elk (what's called moose in the USA) at bay, I'd expect going too bizarre in the confirmation causes evolution (hoof to the head) to go into action.  However, it's a medium sized dog, with medium sized ears, a medium length jaw, a fairly wide but not extreme spitz head, and a doubly curled tail carried over the back.  (The proper tail has a permanent kink at the end. The bitch I had in my teens could uncurl her tail only down to the kink.  It appeared that the bones were fused.)  The only disqualification in the AKC standard was "pronounced variation from the grey color", or something like that.  The other thing that helps a breed is for it to remain only somewhere around 30-40th in registrations, enough animals to have some gene pool, but NEVER in the top ten.

The stretched out CFA Siamese are what I call "racing Siamese".  It does seem that the narrowing of the head has led to hyperactive, wierd cats.  However, what they call "apple-headed" in the cat world refers to a Siamese with a fairly normal cat-shaped head, not a stretched Egyptian figurine head.  My going-on ten years old Tonkinese looks fairly normal, but the Tonkinese standard calls for a moderate cat, I believe.  She is a CFA cat that was spayed shortly after puberty to become a pet.

Sadly, something horrible has happened to the Burmese breed.  About twenty years ago, they were beautiful cats.  The latest show Burmese have such a short nose that it is almost missing, but there is a separate breed called "European Burmese" that has a normal cat-shaped head.  Along with the extremely short noses came something called the Burmese head defect, in which the poor little kitten is born with such a deformed head it can't survive.

Miss Kitty's Mom March 13th, 2009 09:27:08 PM

I consider Terrierman pleasantly eccentric, but I have emailed to disagree on some posts. There are still many Sealyhams and Scottish Terriers actually "worked" in the field, go-to-ground for Earthdog titles, and have tracking and all the agility & obedience titles. The first dog to gain an AKC tracking title was a Sealyham.

He cites that most are "too big" for terrier work, well, yes, some are, but plenty are still of the smaller conformation size. As for body structure, I can say once again that both breeds are not affected with "physical" impairing defects. (the C-section rate is high in Scotties, but not for a "physical reason".

I do not have a browser that supports picture uploads...but I hope no one minds a bit of a brag/congrats for two dedicated breeders that have received honors for their hard work: Cruft's 2009 BIS, Efbe's Hidalgo at Goodspice

And Cruft's Terrier Group 2 : from the US, Roundtown Mercedes of Maryscot

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 13th, 2009 09:36:28 PM

"When you look at a parent club publication and the greatest number of advertisements are obits for young dogs who die of things unheard of even 20 years ago, it's time to take a long hard look at what is happening and reformulate a plan to stop it."

I 50/50 disagree with the above statement.  There may in fact be more genetic disorders now, or maybe the dogs that were dying of these diseases 20 years ago weren't diagnosed with what they had, or nobody knew why they died.

"The closed gene pools of some of these breeds is devastating to dogs.  Retrievers are dying in record numbers and at young ages from insidious diseases that can be wiped from their gene pools with judicious outcrosses and testing for heritable diseases."

The breeder I puchased my male from and all of my dogs have a lifetime guarantee against any hereditary defects.  We both pay thousands of dollars to have our breeding dogs tested for every hereditary defects.  For labs, the ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

PENNHIP - $360

OFA HIPS/ELBOW - $300+ (yes I do both pennhip and ofa for hips)

EIC (exercise induced collapse) - $200

CNM (centronuclear myopathy) -$100+

prcd-PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) - $185

CERF eye exams every year - $40 a pop

Patellar Luxation test - $100+

OFA Cardiac Testing - $100 or so

I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of.  This is a underestimate of what these tests cost.  And this doesn't include coat color testing for those who want to know what they are getting from a mating.  All added up these tests are about $1380+ per dog.  That doesn't include the $2000-$4000 required to purchase a dog on a breeding contact with a breeding guarantee.

My point about all this money counting is that responsible breeders DON'T breed to make money.  They breed to allow themselves to keep breeding, essentially funding their own breeding program.

Charles G March 13th, 2009 09:37:25 PM

Dummy me forgot to add that Cruft's gr. 2 is a lovely Scottish Terrier.

And that there has been undocked Sealyhams shown in the US, and perhaps as more imports come over, may be common to see, and the parent club will "officially" change the standard.

And not to defend "all AKC policies", but it should be said that the AKC Canine Health Foundation, along with the various breed clubs, raise the MOST money to support research for a variety of maladies, genetic tests, treatments...because the breed club members themselves strive for answers and improvements in the health department.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 13th, 2009 09:55:38 PM

And personally, regardless of the methods he uses (although I have to admit I find his writing charismatic, even when I DON'T agree with him) I can NOT fault a man for using science, logic and common sense to pose a thoughtful argument.

Oh, for sure.

It's nice when he does that. Too bad he so often reaches for the inflammatory language and presents his personal biases and obsessions as "science, logic and common sense."

But what I TRULY despise is the breeding of dogs whose looks are DIRECTLY related to the problems at hand.  Dysplasia in overly huge Danes and Bernards, eye problems due to excessive wrinkles in Bassets, Bloodhounds and Shar Peis... the list goes on and on and includes breeds like Dobermans, Shepherds, Ridgebacks, Chihuahuas, Frenchies, Bulldogs, Bullmastiffs, Bordeauxs, Mastiffs, Dalmations, Collies (can I stop yet??), Pugs, Pekingese, Cavaliers, Aussies, Shelties, Bull Terriers, Bostons, Cresteds.... ok, I'm starting to depress MYSELF here.

Most of these breeds, I can't speak directly to their health problems or lack of them, or how closely related they are to their looks. Cresteds, though, despite Terrierman's fertile imagination on the subject, are a generally healthy breed which has grown healthier over the last thirty years, in part because show pressure has been against extremes of build and appearance. And what health problems they do have (the most notable of which is progressive retinal atrophy) are not related to their hairlessness. In fact, the PRA comes from crossings with poodles in the 1920s and 1930s. Hmmm.....

(Just to be clear: I'm all for judicious out-crossing both to correct specific health problems and to increase overall genetic diversity in breeds with smaller numbers or for any other reason to closely inbred. I'm even inclined to believe that Cresteds probably benefited as much or more than they were harmed by the crossings of the 20s and 30s. The fact remains, though, that the most troublesome health problem this breed with the freakish appearance but generally good health has, came to it from a breed whose only apparent "freakishness" is a funny haircut.)

Lis March 13th, 2009 10:23:44 PM

The AKC doesn't set the breed standards but has a set of rules making it quite difficult to change them.  Yeah, they're not at all complicit when they could simply lower the requirements for changing the standard where it involves a well documented, underlying health issue.

"it was MY impression that the AKC registered/approved judges were the ones responsible for determining the "fads" and the "correct interpretation" of any written standard"  That's my understanding as well, despite PR to the contrary on some sites.

Charles G, nice to see a breeder say "responsible breeders DON'T breed to make money" and I suspect that "essentially funding their own breeding program" is optimistic.  Too bad so many get into breeding dogs thinking they'll at least break even very quickly.  This is one expensive hobby!  I get doing cheap jewelry as a hobby.  The jewelry doesn't hurt or die when substandard materials and processes are used and I know it's been somewhat (to say the least) not PC to tell people they shouldn't breed dogs and cats on the cheap but it certainly can't be done well without at least adequate up front cash flow.  I keep hoping more and more breeders will actually put these hard numbers up on their websites so newbies (breeders and buyers) know what should go into the process.  (Couldn't help but notice you left out food and housing and regular vet visits and vaccines and... AND your time :)

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 10:26:08 PM

Ya, I guess I should have mentioned those too.  Maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone gets a yearly exam.  However my dogs get initial puppy shots at 8 weeks (which actually do nothing) and then are vaccinated again at 12 weeks old and then only rabies shots as it is required by law here every 3 years.  I know the Doc will probably disagree with me but I'm ALMOST more scared of the vaccines than I am of the diseases they are given for. That being said, recent research seems to point to the vaccination after the 12 week point as probably protecting the dog for life.  I know vaccination is a whole other can of worms but I actually had a vet one time who wanted to vaccinate a 17 year old Border Collie with the 6in1 vaccine cocktail.  I remember I was very polite but I felt like saying he should just give up and stop practicing.  I mean was he really hurting that bad for money?

And the food is a huge one.  Not to try to promote products on this blog or anything but we feed Orijen Adult which is about $74 a bag.  I don't really know how much we go through right now, but when we had 2 dogs we would get about 20 days out of a bag.  It's about the best thing (in my opinion) that you can feed a dog, other than a well balanced raw diet (which I neither have money or time for).

Charles G March 13th, 2009 10:42:07 PM

"it was MY impression that the AKC registered/approved judges were the ones responsible for determining the "fads" and the "correct interpretation" of any written standard"  That's my understanding as well, despite PR to the contrary on some sites"

AKC Judges - okay yes judges are sanctioned by the AKC - but there is a process which again boils down to us breeders.  you can download a judging application from the AKC site but in short most 90% judges begin as Breeder Judges where you must have x amount of years in your breed, and finished so many champions, visit other kennels for breeder mentorship, apprentice under other breeder judges, take a few tests, then you are approved for your first breed then you apply for other breeds going thru the same steps... That is the simplified process btw.

In regards "The AKC doesn't set the breed standards but has a set of rules making it quite difficult to change them.  Yeah, they're not at all complicit when they could simply lower the requirements for changing the standard where it involves a well documented, underlying health issue."

The process is NOT that hard - there is simply a process as there is in everything !

LC March 13th, 2009 11:17:46 PM

I'll admit it.  For my indoor only cats, I am more afraid of the vaccines (especially those multi-vaccines) than I am of the diseases.  It's tough to watch them get sick after every single vaccination and they do so without fail and you'll have a really tough time convincing me that these vaccines (as made and as currently administered) aren't contributing to the shortened lives of cats.  I've become more concerned about the vaccines for my dogs but haven't past the "more afraid" mark yet.  I'm soooo glad my child is nearly 30.  I really wouldn't want to be a parent making that call for a child right now.  It's all well and good to say the benefits of vaccines outweigh the possible detriments on a societal level - until you're the one with a child or pet having that unusual adverse reaction or worse, that suspected unusual adverse reaction and knowing that it will be 50 years before a corporate manufacturer fesses up if it turns out you're right.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 11:26:43 PM

"judges are sanctioned by the AKC - but there is a process..."  Sounds a lot like medical school: designed to keep the status quo with little chance of changes and exactly why it takes a couple of decades for scientifically proven methods to trickle down into practice while patients continue to suffer.  Lousy excuse in my book.

Hey, I'm not saying the underlying breeders aren't also responsible but, frankly, I don't understand why AKC would be off the hook any more than AVMA or State Bar associations or any other umbrella group should be.  These umbrellas are often in a position to lead or follow and I see no reason for them to be excused for following the pied piper since they aren't children.  Notably, AKC is NOT a membership organization so they do not have the pressure of membership that AVMA and others have so there is very little excuse for them not to choose to lead instead.  I can find no logic whatsoever in they aren't a membership organization = not responsible for their own actions or lack thereof.  In fact, it seems quite contrary to logic to me.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 11:34:23 PM

My HOA has a 50% quorum and even allows appearance by proxy and we all live on a 6 acre plot of land.  This is for a once a year meeting that admittedly affects the value of our homes, the biggest investment most people have.  We've had two quorums in 30 years!  We have a couple of condo provisions that require a super quorum (2/3 or 3/4).  Whenever we run into those, we immediately look for a way around them because that ain't never gonna happen.  If "must be passed by 3/4 or 75%" is the requirement, it is IMO grossly unreasonably high.  These days, lawyers advise a 10% quorum for HOAs and other organizations with a simple majority vote of those present for passage of resolutions and, for mail in voting, a simple majority of votes for those bothering to vote.  The reason comes from knowing that most organizations with those old high requirements are also listing dead people on their membership rolls and those who, for whatever reason, just want to remain on the rolls but NEVER participate.

PJBoosinger March 13th, 2009 11:47:11 PM

First, why don't folks use their real names here? Second, docking is not cosmetic in GSP's. I hunt with pointers and setters that beat the ever living @#$#$%^&&* out of their tails and spend months recuperating with bloody, broken and magled tails, or have surgery to remove their broken mangled tails. You either have to be against tail docking and dew claw removal, or for tail docking and dew claw removal. Both are either profilactic procedures or cosmetic. In hunting dogs there is no middle ground. Docking the tails adds no discomfort above and behond dew claw removal. What's the difference between three clamps going on and two? The whole thing over in 60 seconds or 45? Thrid, I never said docks aren't required in some breeds, just crops. I honestly don't care if they are shown with long ears or no. I haven't seen a cropped pet Boxer in years; Dr. Amanda doesn't think she has any in her practice (and they have a lot of pet Boxers). You can't argue that the change in the breed standard hasn't had ANY effect on the rank-and-file owners. The show ring represents a tiny perecentage of dogs, probably fewer than one in 500 dogs are every shown in an AKC bench show. Someone smarter than me probably has the statistic. My preference is for no ear cropping, but the show ring is so far away from what I think good dogs are. I'd like to see docks and dews removed from the breed standards as I think it's highly optional, especially in couch potatoes. But I will aways take the last quarter off my GSP's tails to prevent injury. Dr. K, please join Dr. Amanda and me on a hunting trip this October. Bring Dr. Wosar. I'll supply the guns and ammo, if you don't have any. We'll stay someplace with running water and electricity, although that isn't where I prefer to go (I'm usually several hours from the nearest veterinary hospital, even with electric and running water). We'll eat well and have fun. I think you will see some situations that might change your mind about tail docking being strictly cosmetic. In fact, dew claw removal (IMO) is more cosmetic than docking. None of the imports are dewed, and nobody I know ever had a problem with it, and I know a LOT of people all over the US and Canada. I've personally known two dogs that died running into trees. (Impailed through the heart and ruptured spleen.) That's the same number of dogs that died in the US of cocoa mulch poisoning (and I didn't know either mulch dog personally). I've known several pointers who developed nasty broken tails. A few labs with "water tail" temporary and permanent. I don't know about a single dew claw problem.... And yet, the AVMA is for taking dews off... And what's the AVMA stance on cat declaws? It's perfecly OK, as long as the owner says "I've done everything and Mr. Kitty tears up my Victorian setee." The surgery is akin to taking off the first digit of every finger of the human hand -- at seven "human years of age" or older. It takes three days (and two bloody nights) for the kitty to go home from the hospital. (As opposed to one minute for dews and docks.) Many cats develop behavioral problems once thir front line of defense is cut off. For what purpose? If your furniture is that important, don't get a cat. If you are immuno comprimised, don't get a cat or get Mom to take Mr. Kitty. Talk about cosmetic, and the AVMA taking a "brave position." How about month's old sheep being docked and castrated using a knife and human teeth without anesthesia or pain meds ON NATIONAL TV? http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEKbwLOLlfStOO The AVMA, last I checked, represented farm vets and farm animals. The silence is defening. The policy is: "Lambs' tails are docked for cleanliness and to minimize fly strike, but cosmetic, excessively short tail docking can lead to an increased incidence of rectal prolapses and is unacceptable for the welfare of the lamb. We recommend that lambs' tails be docked at the level of the distal end of the caudal tail fold." In other words, sheep can be docked at three weeks of age, or more, without anesthesia or pain mends, for "clenliness and to minimize fly" infestation. Couldn't a non-mutilating method be used? How about a comb or brush applied regulary? Dock a GSP to prevent tail breakage and injury, and you are evil. Rip out a sheep's nuts with your knife and teeth, that's good TV. There is NO position on the AVMA web-ste regarding castratomg sheep with pocket knives and teeth. None. The AVMA does have a position on how my dog should ride in my truck (not that I disagree with it, just the imballance is really striking)... We aren't talking feral cats. Whose ears are tiped at a pain level similar to tail docking....

Todd Chrisman March 14th, 2009 12:28:21 AM

The thing is, most overly-moderate purebreds (deerhead chihuahuas, lanky bulldogs, pekingese that actually have some nose and a moderate amount of coat) come from irresponsible puppymill/BYB breeding. Yes functional breeds, such as retrievers and herding dogs often have established lines that breed for working ability. Those dogs are often more moderate in body than conformation-bred dogs of the same breeds. and that's perfectly fine. But with breeds that are more or less strictly bred for companionship don't have their function guarding their breeding. And while many many breeds are preyed upon by the puppymill, companion breeds make a HUGE part of their stock. Breeding to those dogs will likely be a disaster, even if individual dogs are health tested (god knows what's hidden in those lines). I know you didn't suggest breeding TO those dogs, but I'm just saying most of what is represented by moderate individuals of those breeds comes from very questionable lineage. Not all of it, there are breeders trying to breed for healthy and moderate (bulldogs, pekes, dachshunds whatever) but they're pretty few and far between.

But I also noticed you picking on American style bulldogs. Show-bred bulldogs are essentially very similar in many parts of the world.

Here's a Russian/Ukrainian champion:


Brazilian champion:


Belgian, Dutch, German champion:


Some of these countries abide by FCI and some have their own kennel clubs. Small stylistic differences do exist between the clubs but overall type is the same, the extreme muzzle, bone suize, chest width, topline, and leg length. While I'm not in support of everything that the AKC does, I don't feel that your claim was necessarily justified. This is an issue that extends FAR beyond the AKC. IMO bulldogs are a genetic trainwreck and I don't personally approve of what is being bred right now, but I'm just saying, its not just because of the AKC. In the end, a judge can only choose from what dogs are presented to him or her, and a good judge will have a good reason for that choice (and often breeders dont always see WHY a more extreme dog was chosen over a moderate dog that might have had a structural fault, they see that an extreme dog won and that's what's hot to use as stud). Honestly, its no one's fault in particular that breeds are getting more extreme and at the same time its everybody's fault in a way, too. But picking on any one party is finding an easy scapegoat.

Tatyana March 14th, 2009 12:56:46 AM

To clarify on what i wrote - I meant breeding moderate dogs to dogs that are of extreme style coming from AKC show lines in order to introduce more moderation into the breed. I know it wasn't suggested but it would theoretically be a direct way to do so. But yeah, many dogs that could potentially be used often come from very questionable breeding that show breeders, who do pay great attention to health and temperament, would be understandably reluctant to introduce into their lines.

Tatyana March 14th, 2009 01:12:33 AM

Thanks for the news

 http://www.vbsyria.com/

vbsyria March 14th, 2009 01:54:30 AM

"First, why don't folks use their real names here?"  Because there are crazy people who show up at your house and stalk you, especially the wackadoodle stalker males who do this to women.  Much easier to post under a nom de gare than have to deal with the after effects of having to shoot the stalker.

"Honestly, its no one's fault in particular that breeds are getting more extreme and at the same time its everybody's fault in a way, too. But picking on any one party is finding an easy scapegoat."  So we should blame everyone equally?  I don't think so.  I'm fine with allocating levels of responsibility but "everyone's responsible" = no one is held accountable.  Stock brokers who lied and cheated but actually invested people's money are not at the same level of culpability as good old Bernie.  Bernie's clients are partially responsible?  Probably.  On the same level as Bernie?  I don't think so.  But MOM, every body else is going to the crack party...  But SON, if you go, your butt will be in MY sling.

PJBoosinger March 14th, 2009 01:56:48 AM

Tatyana: Thank you for the correction. You're absolutely right. This goes far beyond the AKC.

As to the AKC and the AVMA: I agree with PJB. Umbrella organizations cannot hide behind their membership by way of shirking leadership responsibilities. Sure, the AVMA has to represent its members, just as the AKC must theirs. But certainly that does not mean that the AVMA is off the hook for its industry practice protectionism when those practices are inhumane. 

For the record, the AVMA opposes declaws, tail dock, ear crops and procedures on farm animals without anesthetics/pain relief/sedation. Problem is, it does so softly, recognizing that it's members must be nudged into the 21st century, not yanked, kicking and screaming. So too of the AKC, I imagine. 

Still, if I don't give my own organization a pass why would I cut the AKC any slack?

Dr. Patty Khuly March 14th, 2009 06:40:06 AM

RE:"judges are sanctioned by the AKC - but there is a process..."  Sounds a lot like medical school: designed to keep the status quo with little chance of changes and exactly why it takes a couple of decades for scientifically proven methods to trickle down into practice while patients continue to suffer.  Lousy excuse in my book."

It is not a difficult process but there has to be a process! Seriously, it is just a process - I encourage any of you who have a passion for dogs and the health of purebreds to simply download the package and get involved - contact or visit the website for the breed you are passionate about and JOIN their health foundation or standard committee.  Each breed club has a Official Standard committee, this committee is responsible for judges education which involves teaching judges how they want their standard interpreted,etc..  and btw judges DO EXCUSE AND DQ dogs in the ring and most are not shy about it!!!!!

RE: the 75% passing of standard changes i wanted to clarify that it is not 75% of the total membership it is 75% of votes returned !  So it is not a true qourum as in your HOA - that would make it impossible ;)  Nope just a majority of votes returned will change it - which btw is a major issue in dog clubs many think it should be abit tougher to do so - in fact breed clubs can even make "minor changes to clarify wording" without a vote !  Which has led to many screaming matches at club meetings ;) LOL

I also wanted to point out that in Russia, England, Canada etc... there exists ONE National registry, ONLY ONE but here in the United States we have MANY registries !  Any person with a computer and printer can start a registry and issue fancy little certificates - These registries are more popular with puppymillers than the AKC actually - especially with the DNA requirements which are becoming more frequent, kennel inspections, bannings, etc....

the CKC - no not the Canadian Kennel Club but the Continental Kennel Club or the FIC no not the FCI but the Federation of International Canines whose paper work looks identical to the FCI - there are sadly many more!  And more sad is alot of puppy owners don't know that the paperwork they have on their puppy is NOT AKC or even AKC recognized until they try to register their dog with the AKC or a show.

Again, it is obvious that there are many passionate owners here who are very concerned about the breed they have and your passion and input could greatly benefit your national parent club and in turn your breed!  It is us, breeders and owners and fanciers that are responsible for our breed!

Dr. K the French Bulldog Charitable Trust would love to have a Vet on their board I am sure ;)

http://www.frenchbulldogclub.org/ht/d/sp/i/2079/pid/2079

Great discussion btw ;)

LC March 14th, 2009 10:18:13 AM

I'm really surprised to read you making no distinction between show dogs that are truly malformed, such as the Bulldog, and those that are "merely" fat, like the show Labs.  Take 10-20 pounds off the average show Lab and you WILL have a dog that can run without excessive panting

As for Terrierman, I'm amazed that anyone is still taking him seriously.  Just to start, there's  his obsession with the notion that purebred dog breeding is like racist eugenics (a position he shares with PETA), his truly disgusting misogyny (take a look at how he illustrates his posts on dogshows) and his ill-informed ranting  (I can't speak for the Chinese Crested, but his posts about MY breed are complete claptrap).  In addition: do you not understand that what he does with his dogs is a blood sport little different from dogfighting?  Can you tell me that you read without disgust his posts about how his dogs torment other mammals for his pleasure (which he sometimes pretends is to help farmers) and which he then generally kills  (except when the dogs do the killing first).  And THIS is the man you want representing the "there are problems with some purebred breeds" position?  

No one can dispute that there are genetic problems with many purebred dogs.  When I see rigorous scientific studies of mixed breeds that indicate these problems are not also present, I will believe that "hybrid vigor" exists and is not just a rhetorical device to attack the whole basis for purebred dogs..

EmilyS March 14th, 2009 10:43:45 AM

On the idea that 'hybrid vigor' or outcrossing with other breeds will solve genetic problems, it won't if the outcrossed dog has bad genetics too. You can't just toss in a Pointer once with a Dalmation and solve every problem Dals can have. While, from what I've read, this did decrease the incidence of renal problems in Dals about 50%, it wasn't continued because so many breeders were against diluting the registry. That's up to them, but my take is that yes, an improvement in renal function is a good thing, but how about the shyness, fear aggression, and deafness issues that so many Dals have? If the outcross with a Pointer helped those issues too, then it would be a good thing to pursue. I've met only 4 Pointers in the past 10 years, but all of them where shy and one was a fear biter.

On the other hand, the Dutch Shepherd was in dire staights in terms of breeding stock after WWII, and from what I've read, in order for it to survive, outcrossing with Malinois was needed to save the breed at all. Those outcrosses were done with healthy dogs and most of the dogs (Dutchies and Mals) were from police or herding work dogs, so they had actual performance testing before breeding. The few Dutchies I've met are healthy, but sadly they were in pet homes that didn't know how to channel their drive and the dogs had some behavior problems. Those things can be fixed with the right owners.

And that's the biggest problem with dogs, and it always will be: people getting the wrong dogs for the wrong reasons. Because of this, unscrupulous people will breed dogs of any genetics and temperment, and get away with it, because pet owners, while ususally well meaning, nice people don't understand how dogs are different from people as a species and just think all dogs are like Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Eddie, or the nice Lab down the street, except for their looks, which is how they select them.

And a defense of little companion dogs - they do serve a purpose, and a very valuable one at that - they are friends, and friends don't have to be big on the outside, they just have to have the ability not to be small-minded, which is the best thing about any dog, big, small, furry, or hairless.

KateH March 14th, 2009 11:52:18 AM

Sorry, but the Lab in there got my ire up.

I own, love, show and run field with my Labradors. They are fit, healthy specimens who WIN in the show ring. I've had people look at them and say "Oh, they could lose a couple pounds" until they put their hands on them. Remember, please, that Labs are meant to go into icy waters to retrieve ducks.  Without that little extra padding, they're not able to do this. Fat is insulation! I cringe whenever I see the purina 'weight poster' at my vets.  The Lab they picture at the perfect weight is NOT the perfect weight for a Lab - he's too thin!

My dogs can go from the show ring, to the field, to obedience and the VAST majority of Labs I see are the same way. Do Labs tend to want to eat everything?  Absolutely. But if a Lab is truly obese, let's blame the owner and not the breed, nor the breeder.

Rant over.  I love your posts and your blog.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!

LeslieK March 14th, 2009 12:30:34 PM

LC, Thanks for the clarification on the 75%.  Yes, that is better than what I was thinking it was.  On getting involved, this is actually the first place I've seen where breeders didn't just go straight to "you're not a breeder, you can't possibly understand" and refuse to inform, let alone discuss.  IMO, it's a little bizarre that one has to have been a breeder to be a judge.  perpetuates that thought process that breeding is inherently necessary to understanding.

LeslieK, I tend to agree with you on that poster image.  A working Lab does need that layer of fat just like a scuba diver needs a wetsuit.  Most of us don't have working Labs, we have couch potato Labs and need to watch that layer of fat more carefully than we usually do.  It didn't look to me like the Labs at Westminster were working dogs and you gotta admit that quite a few in the conformation ring were carrying more than the requisite protective layer of fat.  Honestly, they looked more like my pet Lab than the hunters I've seen and I know mine's FAT.

PJBoosinger March 14th, 2009 04:03:13 PM

"And a defense of little companion dogs - they do serve a purpose, and a very valuable one at that - they are friends, and friends don't have to be big on the outside, they just have to have the ability not to be small-minded, which is the best thing about any dog, big, small, furry, or hairless. " - KateH

Absolutely they have a purpose. I myself own toy dogs that are companions above all else (although my breed is the IG and they definitely still posess running ability). But my point is that its "okay" for a pekingese to only barely be able to walk/breathe because chances are they won't be doing much of it. If a dog's exercise comes from walking around the block twice a day then structural faults won't stop them. But if you have a field-bred pointer with elbow dysplasia then chances are they won't be doing nearly enough running as a sound dog of the same breed would, hence the structural fault would impede their function severely. So breeders of functional breeds have that much more reason to be stringent about their stock. But of course there are awful sporting dog breeders and wonderful toy breeders, nothing is absolute. But IMO this is a bit of a selective pressure. There ARE lines that show and hunt/herd/lure course/weight pull, etc etc etc and the dogs have both show conformation and the drive to perform.

Tatyana March 14th, 2009 04:20:50 PM

PJBoosinger, keep in mind, though, that you often can't tell between a couch potato, a show dog and a huntin' dog ;)  Mine definitely are 'show lines' but are out breaking ice in order to get their birds (or bumpers, as it would be).I know at least one of the Westminster Labs had hunt titles, and I'd be willing to bet that most are out in the field - even if it's playing, instead of working. They're still diving into that cold water.  That's one of the reasons I can't 'furminate' my retired dog.  I'd love to have less hair in the house, but I'm not willing to compromise his coat when he's in cold water and retrieving through the snow frequently.

I didn't get to see Westminster this year (I'm Canadian and it wasn't shown up here readily, but what I will say is that it's awfully hard to tell until you put your hands on a dog.  I had a foreign judge this year put his hands on my girl, and then he looked up at me and said "Oh, this one is a pro-athlete".  From just looking, even an experienced judge couldn't tell what was there until he laid hands - and she enjoyed her compliment ;)

However, I so agree we all need to watch the waistlines.  It's so easy for them to pack on the pounds as they get older, and depsite what I'm saying, I would far rather see a Lab a touch underweight than a touch overweight.

Interesting point on the dewclaws.  I've had Labs both with and without, and while I prefer with, I did have a rescue who had obviously ripped one of his off.  If they're dangly, I certainly understand why a breeder would want them off, rather than take the risk.

In terms of responsible breeders making money... snort, snort, giggle, giggle.  My dogs are my family and my hobby.  I work to support them. What Charles also didn't list is the money spent on dogs that wash out and are never even used for breeding.  I've got a boy on my couch that's worth at least a couple thousand BEFORE we realized he had an issue and was neutered.  Doesn't matter, but anyone who thinks they're going to breed properly and make money has a shock coming.

LeslieK March 14th, 2009 07:55:48 PM

Dr. K wrote, "Moreover, if breed clubs have eliminated the crops and docks as a requisite standard then why do none of these dogs compete? Is the AKC not complicit by effectively supporting the right to maintain crops and docks in any given breed?"

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I'm starting to see non-cropped and non-docked in the ring. I approached a breeder/handler of spectacular Great Danes at a show in December with non-cropped ears. She said it's been uphill, but she believes in what she's showing. I can relate. My dog has a tail that is not according to the standard and some judges will dump him at a glance. I imagine it's the same with the ears. But you have to believe in what you are showing and support the breeders who have integrity and won't get all caught up in a tail set or a head shape at the expense of more important issues.

Deanna March 14th, 2009 08:15:04 PM

Lis wrote, "You might want to talk to some of the breed clubs that have tried to change their standards in a direction the AKC doesn't agree with, or to get the books opened the tiny amount necessary to recognize the healthy but standard-meeting products of the Dalmation-Pointer backcross project, or the products of the boxer/corgi project that are standard-meeting boxers with naturallly bobbed tails rather than docked tails."

What you're talking about is opening closed stud books which I addressed briefly in my original post. You are absolutely right, AKC is adamantly opposed to opening stud books. I don't know where I stand on that issue. I've seen horse breeds with open stud books where more harm has been done than good. (National Show Horse anyone? I've seen some pretty awful abominations of the Arabian/Saddlebred cross. Or how about Appendix Quarterhorses?) It still comes down to breeders being responsible for and carefully considering what they put on the ground.

I could warm to the idea of carefully considered and scientifically supported out-crosses like the Dal-Pointer backcross. I foresee enough pressure being put on AKC that they are forced to support it as well.

Deanna March 14th, 2009 08:21:19 PM

Apologies for "post ho'ing" but I have to weigh in on Chinese Cresteds. I absolutely despise the way the hairless ones look (personal preference, don't like the hairlessness), but love the powder-puffs. I can't deny that they are generally healthy dogs. There are a few around here that do pretty darned well in the obedience ring *and* the show ring. If I were to ever get a toy-sized dog (which will be a cold day in hell), I would consider a powder-puff. Even though I love my retrievers and love playing retriever games, I don't think a dog is useless if they are healthy and make people happy. :-)

Sorry, though. I can't get behind fat show Labs no matter if their owners also run them in the field or not. I never saw a "skinny", field bred Lab have any trouble with weather or cold water. How does the "fat is not healthy" message not sink in? Show ring judges want my breed to be a little "thicker" for the show ring too, but I refuse. My breed standard says that dogs are to be shown in "hard, working condition" and I agree so that's what I do despite what any judge thinks.

Deanna March 14th, 2009 08:43:58 PM

For those who missed Westminster, they have quite a bit of the show ring material on website videos.  Here's the link for the Labs http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1009201  I'm sure I can't tell for sure without putting hands on them but quite a few seem to "jiggle" more than in past years and the second one the judge examines has far more fleshy movement than the first one...

PJBoosinger March 14th, 2009 09:17:23 PM

Deanna, you haven't spent enough time around those skinny field bred labs, then :)  Many have to wear neoprene vests during duck hunting season in order to be able to do their jobs. Sorry - that's not to standard nor true to the original purpose of the breed. If they're running field trials, they need to be that thin to do the 400 yard marks at the speed required - but again, that's not true to the standard or purpose. 

I'm not clamining there aren't fat labs out there - in the show ring or on the couch.  We all know there are!  Rather, I just don't think it's fair to condemn the entire show ring or breed based on these examples. Beyond that, I don't see how they fit into this example of overbreeding.  This is a matter of over-conditioning, not overbreeding, IMO.

LeslieK March 14th, 2009 09:34:11 PM

Leslie, OK, let's follow your position to its ultimate logical conclusion, that is that a lean dog cannot be made fat. (?????)

Silly, because any dog can be fattened up. So why don't people who actually use their dogs for retrieving do that instead of putting a neoprene vest on their lean, fit dog? BECAUSE FAT IS NOT HEALTHY. A fat dog can't go all day like their lean, fit counterparts. A Lab is supposed to be able to go all day, no? All that extra weight is horrible for joints as well, reducing their useful life. 

I would argue that neoprene vests are a nicety, not a necessity. Without boring everyone with specifics, I believe I have enough of a base of knowledge of both show ring Labs and their field-bred cousins (because they're really not the same breed anymore) to express a valid opinion.

If show ring Labs have firm muscle (in reference to the "pro athlete" comment by a show ring exhibitor above) they also have lots of fat. This is relevant to this discussion because it is yet another unhealthy characteristic that is being selected for by some breeders. It's also relevant because when pet owners see show ring Labs, they are likely to think that's the way Labs are supposed to be; that it's healthy.

Deanna March 14th, 2009 10:27:23 PM

In addition: do you not understand that what he does with his dogs is a blood sport little different from dogfighting?  Can you tell me that you read without disgust his posts about how his dogs torment other mammals for his pleasure (which he sometimes pretends is to help farmers) and which he then generally kills  (except when the dogs do the killing first). 

Um.  I hope everyone here knows I'm not Terrierman's biggest fan, right?

Not all mammals are equal in their impact on human beings and human activities. A rat is not a dog, never mind a boy. And rats, mice, and other rodents are a <i>serious</i> problem for farmers.  Which means,, lie it or not, tha they're a problem for you. Even if you eat an all-meat diet, you depend for that meat on the grain the meat-producing livestock consume.

That's why we have domestic cats. And that is why the terrier breeds exist--they were nearly all of them created to hunt various kinds of vermin in various kinds of environments. Terrierman is using his dogs to do something genuinely useful, and comparing it to dog fighting is just plain obscene.

What you're talking about is opening closed stud books which I addressed briefly in my original post. You are absolutely right, AKC is adamantly opposed to opening stud books. I don't know where I stand on that issue. I've seen horse breeds with open stud books where more harm has been done than good. (National Show Horse anyone? I've seen some pretty awful abominations of the Arabian/Saddlebred cross. Or how about Appendix Quarterhorses?) It still comes down to breeders being responsible for and carefully considering what they put on the ground.

I could warm to the idea of carefully considered and scientifically supported out-crosses like the Dal-Pointer backcross. I foresee enough pressure being put on AKC that they are forced to support it as well.

Just to be clear: I am NOT talking about opening the stud books in a free-for-all. I AM talking about well-planned, scientifically supported and monitored out-crosses like the Dal-Pointer backcross. And while the AKC will probably be forced to accept this kind of project eventually, it's a disgrace that they are still refusing to recognize the standard-meeting descendants of this project, who are healthy, sound, and have one pointer ancestor twelve generations back.

But my point is that its "okay" for a pekingese to only barely be able to walk/breathe because chances are they won't be doing much of it. If a dog's exercise comes from walking around the block twice a day then structural faults won't stop them.

No it's not "okay." And structural faults can and do cause problems for little companion dogs, too. Hip dysplasia is much more common in large breeds, but it's not a joke in any dog. Pugs to some extent, but especially Pekes, are signficantly hampered in their ability to walk due to being unable to breathe correctly.

Little dogs are real dogs, and need to be treated as such and not regarded as living stuffies--even when they're not Italian Greyhounds with the "dignity" of "really" being sighthounds.

Lis March 14th, 2009 11:33:26 PM

"No it's not "okay." And structural faults can and do cause problems for little companion dogs, too. Hip dysplasia is much more common in large breeds, but it's not a joke in any dog. Pugs to some extent, but especially Pekes, are signficantly hampered in their ability to walk due to being unable to breathe correctly. Little dogs are real dogs, and need to be treated as such and not regarded as living stuffies--even when they're not Italian Greyhounds with the "dignity" of "really" being sighthounds." - Lis

Attend a lure coursing event and wipe the sarcasm out of your tone, IGs ARE real sighthounds. I never said that small dogs aren't real dogs. My point is that my dogs are companions first by far, I know what its like to live with a toy/companion dog. Yes small dogs should be treated the same way as a large dog, but if you notice 90% toy owners absolutely do not. Toy dogs are carried in bags, they are guarded on owners' laps, they are dressed up, etc etc etc. Perhaps "okay" was a bad choice of wording on my part, lets say its easier for companion-only dog breeders to get away with prioritizing appearance over health. It most certainly does happen, this is why you see exaggerated features that would be considered deformity in companion-only breeds far more often than you do in breeds that do or have the ability to participate in their intended function. I'm not lumping every breeder into this, like i said before, i don't believe in that. But the trend exists.

Tatyana March 15th, 2009 12:14:43 AM

Deanna -- Powderpuff Chinese Cresteds are the best-kept secret of the toy dog world, imo. I understand that hairlessness turns most people off, but nobody I've ever met that has seen a Powderpuff that has NOT been totally enthralled by them. They'd have great general appeal if more people knew about them.

Pai March 15th, 2009 01:03:18 AM

Back to the AKC and the AVMA (sorry if I seem stuck in a groove). I've been thinking about this comparison more since reading these comments. It seems to me that the AKC is far more than just an umbrella registry. Unlike the AVMA which exists primarily to serve its membership, the AKC actually has the power to govern its constituents. 

For example: The AVMA cannot say' "veterinarians cannot perform crops and docks." The AVMA has no legal or regulatory power to do so. It is merely a membership-based organization we hope would demonstrate leadership by way of aggregating science and pushing the envelope of the profession for the betterment of our communal goals. 

The AKC, on the other hand, has the power to say tomorrow: "Further progress of any breed towards chondrodystrophism and brachycephalism will not be tolerated. Cropping and docking will not be tolerated."

It seems to me that the AKC has it easy. Its accountability is to its membership and when it fails to promote health-based imperatives it simply points a lazy finger at its registrants. Its registrants, in turn, defend the AKC's faults as the work of irresponsible breeders down the chain and the stupid public happy enough to buy dogs that cannot breathe. 

If the AKC surrendered its protective stance, breeders of cropped and docked dogs would go elsewhere with their breeds, thus limiting the AKC's power base and depleting its coffers.

At what point to breed "registries" like the AKC have a responsibility to anyone beyond the breeders that hide beneath its skirts? To anyone beyond its own ignoble power-hoard in the US? 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 15th, 2009 08:34:48 AM

Attend a lure coursing event and wipe the sarcasm out of your tone, IGs ARE real sighthounds. I never said that small dogs aren't real dogs.

Yes, I know they're real sighthounds. What you don't seem to get is that makes them in no way either better or worse than my Crested who is still quite capable of killing moderate-sized rodents as her ancestors did (not speculation; fact: a squirrel out in HER yard), but whose main job is being my pet and walking companion. Or, for that matter, the chihuahua whose only job is being the friend and walking companion for a woman at my mother's senior housing complex.

What you say about toy breed dogs (other than the breed you love, which is also a sighthound) speaks for itself.

My point is that my dogs are companions first by far, I know what its like to live with a toy/companion dog. Yes small dogs should be treated the same way as a large dog, but if you notice 90% toy owners absolutely do not. Toy dogs are carried in bags, they are guarded on owners' laps, they are dressed up, etc etc etc.

No, I don't know that at all. The toy breed dogs I know all get walked regularly. If they are small enough, they may also get carried in bags sometimes--have you noticed that a five- or six-pound dog could get accidentally stepped on in a crowd?

Yes, small dogs do sit in their owners' laps. Yes, that's part of the reason that people have small companion-breed dogs. And yes, they often get dressed. You will be shocked, I'm sure, to learn that this is true even of the Italian Greyhounds!!! Small dogs often need some protection, and there's a lot of cute stuff out there for small dogs. Whereas, OTOH, my neighbor who has two Rotties complains that he has a hard time finding anything that fits them, even the plainest and most relentlessly fuctional of dog coats.

You do realize that, for all the media attention they get, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, and Nicole Ritchie are not typical toy breed dog owners any more than they are "typical" anything else--right? You do realize that?

Perhaps "okay" was a bad choice of wording on my part, lets say its easier for companion-only dog breeders to get away with prioritizing appearance over health. It most certainly does happen, this is why you see exaggerated features that would be considered deformity in companion-only breeds far more often than you do in breeds that do or have the ability to participate in their intended function. I'm not lumping every breeder into this, like i said before, i don't believe in that. But the trend exists.

Yes, the trend exists. And it's not good for the dogs, and it's exactly what Dr. Khuly's post was about.

And it's not just toy breed dogs, whatever you choose to believe. Look at the bulldog, the Neopolitan Mastiff, the Shar-Pei, the poor, crippled, American version of the German Shepherd. Meanwhile, look at the small breed dogs that have no unhealthy structural extremes: toy fox terriers, Cresteds, mini and toy poodles, Maltese, toy Manchester terriers, perhaps it's rude of me to mention Italian Greyhounds, Papillons, I could go on, especially if I mentioned toy-sized breeds that are in the "non-sporting" group, but more toy breeds, too.

This is not a size issue, and it's not an AKC Group issue.

Lis March 15th, 2009 08:53:13 AM

Deanna, I'm not sure that that was the logical conclusion of my argument - because it certainly wasn't what I was thinking :)  However, you do realzie how many of these 'show labs' are hunted over reguarly?  If these 'fatties' couldn't do their job, why not trade them in for a field dog with a neoprene vest?  Because some of us realize that the standard calls for certain things for specific reasons.

I agree - fat is not healthy.  My show dogs aren't fat.  Period.  On the other hand, a Labrador should not look like a greyhound.  Period. 

Labs actually aren't made to go all day.  They're made to lie silently and quietly in a duck blind until a flock goes overhead, and then retrieve a few ducks - and then back to the blind. They are meant to be a more sturdy dog because of the need to get into that ice cold water - in the same way they need that special coat and otter tail. This is NOT an excuse for obese Labradors, but it is fact.

And I was the show ring exhibitor with the pro-athlete comment - and I promise you, there isn't 'lots of fat' around my bitch's firm muscle - and I'm actually strangely offended that you would imply there is. Hilarious that I'm getting offended on my girl's behalf :)

LeslieK March 15th, 2009 11:53:40 AM

<i>In addition: do you not understand that what he does with his dogs is a blood sport little different from dogfighting?  Can you tell me that you read without disgust his posts about how his dogs torment other mammals for his pleasure (which he sometimes pretends is to help farmers) and which he then generally kills  (except when the dogs do the killing first). 

Um.  I hope everyone here knows I'm not Terrierman's biggest fan, right?

Not all mammals are equal in their impact on human beings and human activities. A rat is not a dog, never mind a boy. And rats, mice, and other rodents are a <i>serious</i> problem for farmers.  Which means,, lie it or not, tha they're a problem for you. Even if you eat an all-meat diet, you depend for that meat on the grain the meat-producing livestock consume.... Terrierman is using his dogs to do something genuinely useful, and comparing it to dog fighting is just plain obscene. </i>

So "usefullness" is your criteria for when it's OK to use a dog to kill another animal?  You'd better read his blog more carefully, then.  When was the last time he wrote about "rats"?   What Terrierman does is use his dogs to harass, torment and sometimes kill primarily groundhogs, raccoons and 'possums. He often does this on public land, where population is not an issue. He's not controlling vermin populations by killing a few groundhogs (not to mention possums) in a farmer's field, anyway.  That's biological nonsense.  At one time terriers did useful work around farms controlling vermin, but that's not how Terrierman talks about his terriers.  Maybe his dogs "work" around his house killing rats (or cats... would that be OK with you?), but it's not what he's glorifying in his blog.  What HE defines as "terrier work" is killing larger animals using his dogs to help him.  IF he ate them, you could call what he does "hunting"... but his blog isn't full of recipes for 'possum and groundhog, is it?  

What he does is a sport, not a hunt and not vermin control.  It's optional.  Like in the old days, putting 100 rats in a pit with a dog and betting on how fast the dog could kill them.  Since you say rats aren't as important as dogs, would you approve of that kind of event?  What Terrierman does is NOT "work".. it's a sport that involves killing other animals, using his dogs.  A blood sport, like live rabbit coursing.  Yes, and like dogfighting.  Do we need these kinds of blood sports to preserve the working ability of some breeds?  Hunting for food is perfectly legitimate.  Hunting just to kill, or to preserve a breed?   Not so much.  Aside from "rats", are there other species you are willing to sacrifice to preserve a dog breed?   For example:  We all agree that the current English bulldog is a monstrosity.  Do you want to recover this breed so that it can bait bulls?  And if a bulldog could bait a bull, should its owners develop a sport around it?  Actually, there is a modern version of bullbaiting:  feral hog hunting, in which several breeds are used to chase/bay and American pit bull terriers are used to catch/hold.   The "sport" version of this (where the hogs are contained in a ring) is outlawed everywhere.. why is that?  We sanction the use of dogs for hunting feral hogs.. but not for deer or other native big game.  Why is that?

There ARE moral distinctions to be made among uses of dogs that involve pursuit/injury/death of other animals and there's nothing "obscene" about asking for a discussion of them

EmilyS March 15th, 2009 12:31:00 PM

"The AKC, on the other hand, has the power...  It seems to me that the AKC has it easy. Its accountability is to its membership and when it fails to promote health-based imperatives it simply points a lazy finger at its registrants. Its registrants, in turn, defend the AKC's faults as the work of irresponsible breeders down the chain and the stupid public happy enough to buy dogs that cannot breathe."  Almost a Bulls-eye!  The AKC actually has no membership at all so it's corporate board can do what is needed, period.  Yes, some (perhaps many, although I doubt it) breeders will move to other registries or start them.  However, AKC has history and reputation behind it and its word carries weight.  The positions they currently take are often indefensible so they're losing support from the old guard and from breeders.  Seems to me they could reestablish their preeminent position and strengthen their authority by using it to benefit the breeds; by taking well supported stances on health.  They could issue a series of directives, post them on their main page along with the explanation and links to the science backing them up.  Wouldn't it benefit them if vets/AVMA could say "Yes, that new AKC policy is wonderful.  We're already starting to see AKC [X breed] with fewer health problems."

"If the AKC surrendered its protective stance, breeders of cropped and docked dogs would go elsewhere with their breeds, thus limiting the AKC's power base and depleting its coffers."  I so want to agree but this could also leave a void in leadership that could be filled by some of the newer organizations that are even worse than the AKC; plus I'm not willing to let the AKC off the hook so easily.  The AKC helped create this mess and they need to step back up in leadership and help clean it up.

PJBoosinger March 15th, 2009 07:45:12 PM

http://search.stores.ebay.com/Interior-Elements_chinese-crested_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ4QQfsnZInteriorQ20ElementsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ7511434QQsofpZ0

Hey Lis, if you check in here I came across this. Early 1900s crested print. You may have to search the store to get it to come up

JenniferJ March 15th, 2009 11:16:02 PM

Jennifer, thanks!

Lis March 16th, 2009 07:28:10 AM

RE Dr K "The AKC, on the other hand, has the power to say tomorrow: "Further progress of any breed towards chondrodystrophism and brachycephalism will not be tolerated. Cropping and docking will not be tolerated." I am not so sure it is that simple! My understanding of the AKC is it supports the breed clubs in setting, modifying standards. I suppose it could modify it's bylaws to make such decrees ? but would that really solve all the health problems ? and does cropping and docking really contribute to health problems in a breed ? or is it just being lumped in cause most here dont like cropping and docking ? I also really wonder how much "power" or "influence" the AKC has on the development of certain breed extremes, seriously ? I do not see the AKC standard represented in any of these pocket pet explosions - you know the 2 pound yorkies or teacup dogs that Hollywood pushes ? Of course the AKC has power but I don't think if they change the standards today will health problems disappear.... On the otherhand, The AKC CHF CHIC program has absolute control of which tests a breed health committee chooses to include or demand for CHIC certification - ex: they are currently demanding that all giant breeds choose either pennhip or ofa and mandate hip screening. I think in England perhaps the KC has more influence on standards and breeders verse here in the US I think Hollywood has more influence on standards and breeders than the AKC...sadly.

LC March 16th, 2009 08:38:02 AM

Lis, it seems that you're incapable of leading a respectful conversation. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you sacrastically talk down to me with every sentence you can. Its just bad manners, its being passive-aggressive and I don't appreciate it. Besides, I can do it too.

But in my defense I'm a groomer and 90% of my clients are small breeds - essentially your yorkies, toy poodles, shih tzus, etc etc etc. I also live in NYC. As you would say, perhaps you'll be surprised that "Paris Hilton" type owners are much more common than you would think. I'm not just watching tv to judge the small dog owner population here, I see these people in person, I work with/for these people's dogs. I also frequent an obedience school and you'd be shocked that relatively very few of the dogs that attend are small companion breeds. Absolutely small dogs are real dogs but an awful lot of their owners don't seem to realize it. And many breeders know what they can get away with. You may want to note that I never said all of them because there are many many tough little dogs out there. but there are enough aforementioned owners to make an impact.

Tatyana March 16th, 2009 06:23:03 PM

EmilyS: I'm a little late in responding to your enlightened post. Yes, indeed, Terrierman engages for the most part in having his dogs "worry" the game & often has pictures of the dead animals.

One thing I can say very "positively" for AKC sanctioned sports: terriers can obtain earthdog titles, duplicating the sport of "go-to-ground", worry the rat,come back on command, and nary an animal hurt. Advanced titles require "cooperation" between terriers.

Heck, just to gain agility, obedience, rally, and tracking titles, involves use of various hunting abilities without the "blood"...and yes, short-legged. broad- bodied, but not overweight and agile Scots & Sealys have proved worthy. (Along with dedicated owners!)It is insulting to refer to them as "mutants" (but he is eccentric, afterall)

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 16th, 2009 09:13:31 PM

It's obvious who has actually read Terrierman's blog and who has not...

He hunts on private lands.  He kills the groundhogs when the farmers request it, or if the animal gets injured, or (as I understand it) the area is overripe with groundhogs.

His dogs do not kill the animals - HE does.  Quite humanely, in fact.  He has little tolerance for those who do so otherwise.

I find the way he dispatches these pests to be more humane and FAR more environmentally sound than the alternatives (poisons, traps, etc).

He actually FEEDS raccoons, possums and foxes in his yard - he does not kill for fun, he participates in a sport that happens to benefit farmers, wildlife populations on a whole (disease control) and avoids the use of the abovementioned alternative eradication methods.

Cats catch mice - is that wrong?  Falconers hunt rabbits - hunters frequently wound coyotes, deer, wolves and other large animals and have to track them for MILES before having the opportunity to dispatch them.

I'm sorry, but while terrier work may not be your cup of tea, I find your comparison of Terrierman's hobby to dogfighting to be one of ignorance.

Kim March 16th, 2009 10:54:00 PM

I should let it be known as well that in my hometown nearly every backyard had a kennel with at least a couple of hounds.  Coonhounds and Treeing Walkers, mostly. 

All the boys hunted raccoons.  Racoons are an invasive pest in Ontario, so much so it's actually illegal to move them - they must be dispatched where they're found - by law.  The dogs located them, treed them, and they were dispatched cleanly by gunshot.  The carcasses were sold to a local fur/leather worker.

In addition, I wonder about the health and hardiness of these retrievers who require neoprene clothing to do their time honoured work.  We hunted our golden in Ontario, Canada - mainly on Canadian Geese.  Even in the cold north, it was never cold enough to prevent my Golden from working.  And it should be noted that he was of very thin coat for a Golden.  He was, however, very well muscled, and kept towelled off between retrieves (and few retrieves, even of water fowl, in the real world of migratory bird hunting, are performed in water). 

Many times, however, his reward for a perfect retrieve was to be released to fetch his floating Kong  in the river/creek/lake.  The only thing that made it too cold to swim was a layer of ice!

Not once did he experience any ill effects, whether we were doing hour-long practice sessions or day-long hunt outings.  As for the suggestion that retrievers are not meant to "go all day" well - with a cap of three geese per person per day, and a hunting party of three to twelve shooters, he could be doing up to 30+ LONG retrieves on a busy day - around 10 on a slow day! (Geese are extremely prolific in our area, easy to find and daily takes easy to fill).

I don't think I'm alone in this either - take a look at Gina's beautiful Flatcoats, in firm, muscled condition... and then compare them to the jiggly versions of the Labrador parading around the show ring.  I'm sorry, but if any one of those dogs walked into my place of business, I would immediately recommend an exercise increase and a DIET.  That amount of weight is simply NOT healthy on any dog, let alone a breed of dog prone to extremely high rates of joint degeneration.

One final note, then I'm outta here for the night - There's all these assertions flying around about the Crested - how it's 4000 years old, a proven terrier, blah, blah, blah - yet aside from a dead squirrel (my pom and my peke will kill squirrels, mice and even birds) I have yet to see a shred of evidence that these breeds were bred for anything but their mutation.  And Tatyana, when you say things like quality of life affecting deformities are ok in dogs who are going to be "carried around anyways" you really can't fault anyone for taking offence and coming down a bit on the hard side.  It's difficult not to talk down to someone who makes an assertion like "Peke's don't really NEED to breathe."  People can live in wheelchairs, too - that doesn't make lack of exercise the healthy choice, not for the physical body or the psychological mind.  I'm quite frankly disturbed that an animal being unable to walk more than a few hundred yards without collapsing of exhaustion simply because PEOPLE have decided they should look a certain way is accepted by you on the grounds that it's "just a toy breed." 

NO amount of discomfort due to conformational (or any other!) breeding is acceptable as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not against the breeding of purebred dogs - I'm against the breeding of purebred medical disasters who live lives that are less enjoyable, less pain free, more difficult and shorter than they should be.

Breeding a dog without teeth, without nasal passages, without enough room in its skull for its brain, without whole legs, without sound joints, without clear eyes, without hearing or sight, or for any reason other than health, temperament and working ability (in that order! - and yes, companion behaviour counts as work and simply means that temperament is doubly important) is simply immoral.

Oh, and like it or not, the AKC DID have its beginnings in the eugenics movement.  Try to point out their differences... breeding for pure blood, and culling or sterilizing those who are "unworthy."  Sorry to burst your bubble..

Kim March 16th, 2009 11:39:39 PM

"I also frequent an obedience school and you'd be shocked that relatively very few of the dogs that attend are small companion breeds. Absolutely small dogs are real dogs but an awful lot of their owners don't seem to realize it. "
I hear a lot of toy-dog bashing in this post, and that's fine, though clearly it was not Dr. Patty's intent. Perpetuating stereotypes is fun for a lot of people because it's too much work to think about the bigger picture. But I will say, as a toy dog owner, I was turned away from 2 obedience classes because my dog was "too small". I was told point-blank that she would be a "distraction" to the other dogs. And she was. Everyone was laughing at her and I got loads of "get the rabbit" quips from the big dog owners. IT'S NOT FUNNY. So, I did private training on my own.
There's plenty of Paris Hilton's out there, but not all small dog owners are that way, give me a break. On a regular basis my dog gets harrassed by large dogs "that just want to play" while pinning her to the ground. So now I have a dog that is fear-agressive of ALL dogs. On a regular basis I have to dodge cyclists that don't obey traffic laws and plow through the cross-walks nearly hitting us because they don't see my dog (she's 8.5#, not teeny tiny). What do I do to handle this? I carry her when I cut through the park, or, I walk a more dangerous route home. Not everything is black & white Tatyana. Your experiences have left your clearly bigoted, and it will always say more about you than it does about small dogs. Thankfully my dog does not need "grooming", but if she did I would never take her to someone who hates small dogs, that's a recipe for disater, like taking her to a vet that hates small dogs for her healthcare. Did you ever think the dogs sense your "energy" and/or perhaps you handle the small dogs differently?

CreatureofHabit March 17th, 2009 07:44:55 AM

CreatureofHabit: I'm thrilled to hear from an enlightened owner of a toy breed.  Sadly, the majority of the toy and even minis that I see these days are being ruined beyond repair by their use as fashion accessories by their oblivious owners.

They come in with their puppies who so desperately want to play with my dogs (on the larger side, one at 25lbs and one at 45lbs).  My dogs are dolls with puppies and small dogs - they've always been taught to treat them like babies, and are as gentle with a pomeranian as they are with a kitten - even if that pomeranian is nasty like a tasmanian devil.  In fact, we frequently use my rott mix to train aggressive responses out of small dogs - they've become so used to getting a rise out of dogs and people, and my dogs completely ignore them and try to get them to play chase, or bring them a toy to play with, or just incessantly follow them around trying to lick their muzzles or clean their ears.  Eventually even the "toughest" little dog either just gives up, and begins ignoring them, at which point we can reward the behaviour, or they begin to interact with the dogs, in which case the play itself is the reward.

Sadly, too often, the owners are reluctant to put their dogs on the ground, let alone allow them to intermingle with "the big dogs."  Sometimes even when I can get them to participate, as soon as the dog starts to show any signs of normal dog behaviour (play-biting, growling, chasing, tackling, etc) they freak out and snatch the dog off the ground.  It's not a surprise when the dog becomes progressively worse until eventually no one can touch it and it's afraid of everything.  And then, of course, the owner calls ME to find a new home for the dog because it has "aggression issues."  Ugh.  Wouldn't YOU if as an adult your feet only hit the ground in your apartment?

I completely understand what you're saying about the dangers of having a small dog - we have two small guys living with us at the moment, and I've had several small dogs in the past.  There's a fine line to walk between protecting and being over-protective.  Unfortunately, the VAST majority of small dog owners I meet daily fall into the latter category - with a thud.

Kim March 17th, 2009 06:53:12 PM

I know this post is a few days old but just thought I would follow up with a report from this last weekend which made me think of this post ;)

A Breeder's Clinic was held in my area on Sunday, We were hit with 3-4 inches of freezing snow early Sunday morning and the roads were horrible!  The clinic was set to open at 8am, first come first serve.

The clinic included:  OFA Heart by a Cardio Spec., OFA Eye, hips, elbows, thyroid and more.  I don't recall all the prices but heart and eyes were $30 ..yes Thirty dollars !!!!

So, I figured with the horrible weather I could take my time, 4 wheel drive and a cup of coffee and arrive at 8 or 8:30 prior to weather conditions I had planned to arrive at 7am to wait in line.....I arrived at 8:30am and was number 110 in line !  Crazy ass breeders, OMG it was nuts !

However, I smirked the whole time in line thinking of this post and even though I didn't even come close to being able to heart and eye cerf my dogs at this clinic I did get semen storage done and created a plan for the next clinic in October!   I didn't know any of the other breeders there but I was proud of their efforts!  Even with the discounted prices a cavalier spaniel breeder in front of me in line with 3 males and 3 bitches wrote a check $1770 for the works on her breeding stock ! plus carted 6 dogs in freezing snow from 80 miles away to participate and crap she beat me there and I live 19 miles away !!!!

So, there ARE breeders out there who care and participate in testing ...I just saw them ;)...really I did and next time I will take pictures ! LOL

LC March 19th, 2009 09:38:35 AM

Kim - that is soooo true. I take her to the off leash rec. area for me as much as her. That's 100% true. I find mind husband saying things like "good job honey, you didn't pick her up!" Lol. But, you can only see your dog get attacked / trounced so many times without having a reflex reaction. One $1000 surgery was enough to scare the crap out of me.

To top it off, my dog was a singleton and I did not socialize her at 10 weeks+ like I should have. I waited until 16 weeks when she had her shots and focused on human socialization (since that can be a problem with Chis). I thought dog socialization (or, at least the concept of being a "dog") would be more natural. I hoped that she'd at least find one or two dogs she liked. Only later did I research articles on the behavior problems of singletons. There's really not a lot of writing on the subject and what I've found implies we are screwed. Lol. Thankfully, she's not aggressive, just terribly shy/easily frightened. We've met one dog she liked and we "borror" that dog and walk them together, so we will just have to keep trying.

Most of the small breed people I know are super into the Canine Good Citizen program. I don't know, nor have I seen, a single Hilton-type. But, I'm in New England, which is quite possibly the LEAST fashionable/trendy part of the country, hands-down. Lol.

I do think the toy/companion breeds are highly, highly in tune with human emotions/energy. My dog goes to work with me every day and there is a new guy who openly says "I hate small dogs" in front of me, so who knows what he says/feels when I'm out of sight. Lottie is afraid of him and barks when he gets close. She NEVER barks otherwise. That says a lot to me.

CreatureofHabit March 19th, 2009 12:55:26 PM

I just have to respond to Kim:  "Oh, and like it or not, the AKC DID have its beginnings in the eugenics movement.  Try to point out their differences... breeding for pure blood, and culling or sterilizing those who are "unworthy."  Sorry to burst your bubble.."

Animal husbandry has been around as long as long as the first people attempted to domesticate animals, and dogs seem to be the first animal that people tried to tame (possibly as early as 15000 BC).  Like it or not, that, by its very definition, means that humans have been artificially selecting which traits that we want to keep in the next generation, and getting rid of those we don't.  The term "eugenics" was coined by Charles Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton, who studied the principles of animal breeding and heredity and applied it to humans.  

To suggest that eugenics is no different than animal breeding is farcical, unless you are saying that spaying and neutering should be abolished?  I mean the dog has not consented to be neutered, as those deemed "unworthy" did not consent to be sterilized or worse euthanized.  (Are you seeing the differences yet?)  

Jessica P. March 19th, 2009 04:43:48 PM

The AKC registers puppymill dogs by the hundreds to the same kennel at the same point in time. They are in it for the money and thats it....

Mary March 19th, 2009 05:00:54 PM

But in my defense I'm a groomer and 90% of my clients are small breeds - essentially your yorkies, toy poodles, shih tzus, etc etc etc. I also live in NYC. As you would say, perhaps you'll be surprised that "Paris Hilton" type owners are much more common than you would think. I'm not just watching tv to judge the small dog owner population here, I see these people in person, I work with/for these people's dogs.

Tatyana. It has apparently not occurred to you that you may not be seeing a cross-section of toy breed dogs and their owners.

My Crested is a powderpuff, and her coat, unlike your wash'n'wear IGs, requires a lot of care and upkeep. Since I got a dog to take care of, and not to pay other people to take care of it, I groom her myself, at home. She is clean, matt-free, and beautiful, and she has seen the inside of a professional grooming salon twice in the two years I've had her. On those occasions, I brought pictures and instructions, and talked to the groomer who would be working on her--and still on the first occasion she came home with shaved feet. But that's nothing compared to an acquaintance who brought her powderpuff Crested in for a grooming, with pictures and instructions--and returned to pick up a dog who had a poodle show clip.

It's hard enough getting a correct groom on a Crested anyway; entrusting my dog to someone who so clearly hates small dogs (except, of course, IGs) is not something that I would do.

Most Crested owners wind up doing their own grooming, whatever they originally intended. More poodle owners than you probably think possible learn to keep their dogs in a puppy clip on their own, rather than rely on groomers who have Ideas about mini and toy breed dogs and their owners.

I also frequent an obedience school and you'd be shocked that relatively very few of the dogs that attend are small companion breeds. Absolutely small dogs are real dogs but an awful lot of their owners don't seem to realize it. And many breeders know what they can get away with. You may want to note that I never said all of them because there are many many tough little dogs out there. but there are enough aforementioned owners to make an impact.

Many mixed-size obedience classes aren't suitable places for small dogs because the big dogs are not yet trained, and owners' brain sizes so often seem to be in inverse proportion to the size of their dogs. When I had had my dog about two weeks and we were still settling in with each other, my neighbors got a Bernese Mountain Dog puppy. They had their dog out front with them one night when I was taking my dog out for her walk, and their puppy pulled the leash out of the hand of whoever was hold it. This puppy, already the size of my sister's full-grown Lab, rushed up to us and was all over my little dog with no warning, while its idiot owners were happily calling, "It's okay, he's friendly!" Yeah, he was friendly--and also five times the size of my dog, with no sense of his own size or weight, and no judgment and no manners yet. I wasn't afraid of the puppy for myself, because it was so clearly a friendly, over-enthusiastic puppy with no bad intentions--but my little dog was terrified by the sudden overwhelming attention of this dog-mountain. We managed to separate without damage, but that was at least partly luck.

Two years later, my dog is a Canine Good Citizen--and I haven't seen the BMD in well over a year.

And, as CreatureofHabit says, "get the rabbit!" quips from owners of big dogs Are. Not. Funny. Nor do they inspire trust or confidence.

OTOH, I did find a training class where the trainer had a working brain, and a liking for all dogs, not just her preferred breed/size/type of dog (which happens to be English Mastiff.) HER huge dog actually IS patient and gentle with small dogs who are freaked out by his size. My dog and I learned a lot from them.

But a few experiences of having your little dog run down by "friendly" big dogs--even when they really are friendly, but just have no judgment or manners--and you get cautious about owners who too-enthusiastically assure you that their dogs are FRIENDLY, and develop a "prove it first" attitude about letting your little dog play with their big dogs. My little dog plays with my sister's Lab, and the neighbor's Rotties; I know those dogs and their owners, and I am comfortable with how their dogs play with my dog. She does not play with my sister's friend's Lab; he's a great dog, friendly and a real sweetie--but he plays too rough. He's a great dog for my sister's dog to play all-out with, but my dog would be seriously hurt, and no, he doesn't appear to have any real sense of the difference in size and what difference it makes in how he should play. Unlike my sister's dog. Or the neighbor's two Rotties.

One final note, then I'm outta here for the night - There's all these assertions flying around about the Crested - how it's 4000 years old, a proven terrier, blah, blah, blah - yet aside from a dead squirrel (my pom and my peke will kill squirrels, mice and even birds) I have yet to see a shred of evidence that these breeds were bred for anything but their mutation.

Kim, to you it's "one dead squirrel." To me, it's the surprise of so many new Crested owners--horrified, surprised, or sometimes delighted--when they discover that their new dogs are both eager and capable in the area of going after the local small prey animals. Dogs from good breeders, dogs from bad breeders, dogs from unknown backgrounds--the rodent-killer behavior is quite widespread in the breed.

They come in with their puppies who so desperately want to play with my dogs (on the larger side, one at 25lbs and one at 45lbs).  My dogs are dolls with puppies and small dogs - they've always been taught to treat them like babies, and are as gentle with a pomeranian as they are with a kitten - even if that pomeranian is nasty like a tasmanian devil.  In fact, we frequently use my rott mix to train aggressive responses out of small dogs - they've become so used to getting a rise out of dogs and people, and my dogs completely ignore them and try to get them to play chase, or bring them a toy to play with, or just incessantly follow them around trying to lick their muzzles or clean their ears.  Eventually even the "toughest" little dog either just gives up, and begins ignoring them, at which point we can reward the behaviour, or they begin to interact with the dogs, in which case the play itself is the reward.

I'd love to have big dogs like yours to help my dog get over her remaining challenges in that are, although, honestly, her friend Josie the cocker spaniel is bigger than the smaller of your two. Sadly, truly reliable big dogs with truly reliable owners are not all that thick upon the ground.

Lis March 22nd, 2009 01:37:21 PM

Well said Lis.
In the meantime, we have to keep pushing back on the 'bash the small dog' mindset.
I loved your comment about brain size being inversely proportional to dog size, I choked on my tea! That statement holds 100% truth at my local park! Lol. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "it's okay, he won't hurt her" being shouted at me from the other side of a field/park/whatever... I could retire and buy that Chanel dog carrier everyone thinks I'm supposed to carry her in. Maybe the giant sunglasses too.

CreatureofHabit March 25th, 2009 08:43:54 AM

Late to the game here, I just wanted to mention that while I've never been seriously tempted to acquire a Chi, I know I would absolutely select a so-called "deerhead" Chihuahua over an "appleheaded" one.

I don't judge what others should or shouldn't find "attractive", and purebred dog selection for companionship is primarily about appearance (since all dog breeds can retrieve to the degree a companion dog would need to, and all dog breeds can negotiate natural and manmade objects to the degree it would need to, as a companion, etc.). Myself, while I prefer Great Danes (for their tremendous size, sleek lines, proportional head size, athleticism, and easy-care coats), I don't really "get" why some people like dogs with grotesquely disproportional heads, bodies longer than they are tall, or even dogs with difficult-to-maintain coats. I like all dogs. But I would only want to own one or two breeds. (Oddly, about the only smaller breed I'm drawn to is the Chinese Crested. And while I *think* I'd prefer the hairless variety, I suspect I'd actually enjoy a clipped powderpuff, when you get right down to it.

My feelings about dog ownership (in general) aside, I can't resolve the conflict between purebred dog breeding and the various ethical issues associated with it. The critics suggest any dog that is "too" anything (too big, too small, too hairy, too little hair, too large eyes, too long ears, etc.) should be phased out. Some would say that my favoured breed, Great Danes, are just as much a product of perverted breeding practices as are Bulldogs. While that may be so, the reality is, there are health problems in many breeds, and the old myth that Great Danes are especially short-lived because of their size is grossly outdated. 10-12 is pretty typical these days...not that much different than most large breed dogs, and even better than many other giant breeds. So, the argument their size is shortening their lives, thus continuing to breed them is unethical, is not exactly accurate.

Similarly, I have only acquired my own dogs through shelters and rescue situations, and can't envision a scenario where I'd "buy" a dog (only from a reputable breeder, of course). Sometimes, actually, I lament that, despite years of devotion to the breed and rescue, I'll probably never have that huge, beautifully-bred, Dane of my dreams, simply because the need is out there in rescue AND my special skills as a trainer could mean the difference between life and death for some dogs. I want more responsible breeders creating healthier, long-lived, superior representatives of their breeds. Sadly, I'll likely never be one of their clients. I would be very sad if there were no more Great Danes. Then again, the ethical question are never about what humans want.

On "appleheadedness", a friend of mine was looking for a small breed dog, ten years ago. (She's a veterinarian, by the way.) She and I specifically discussed avoiding the grotesqueries of any of the "appleheaded" types of dogs. Both of us find it extremely unattractive, to say the least. She opted for a Toy Manchester Terrier, almost entirely to avoid the "appleheadedness" of similar kinds of dogs, such as MinPins and Chi's.

On Terrierman, I only needed one run-in to know that guy seriously lacks credibility. When I corrected some grossly inaccurate information he published regarding "my" breed (a breed I've been involved with for nearly 50 years!), he flew into a tizzy, and began making personal attacks against me...you know...like a child. Oddly, in his rant against me, he published the precise kind of information that proved his initial claims were inaccurate. While I won't label what I think it is, there's clearly something wrong there.

As for, "...owners' brain sizes so often seem to be in inverse proportion to the size of their dogs," I did chuckle a little when I read that. It's not true, of course. As a responsible ownership instructor and 30-year dog training veteran, I find brain size to be (typically) directly proportional to the size of the person's dog, actually. (I.E. I have yet to meet a really experienced and competent trainer who chooses small breed dogs to own.) Okay...maybe with a modifier where "breed reputation" reduces brain size proportional to that reputation being based on "protection" or "friendliness" or "I'm so clever owning a breed not recognized by the AKC." ;-)

In all seriousness, that was a funny line, though. I may be tempted to use a version of that in related conversations. :-)

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