I love fresh eggs....

may I suggest fresh duck eggs? not only tasty but so excellent for baked goods.

LorriM March 15th, 2009 11:45:21 AM

There is NO substitute for fresh eggs! Luckily we have a few folks around here with eggs for sale...mmm, mmm!

Never tried duck eggs, would love too

And that 'humane' overnight express? Usually via USPS, and we DO take great care in delivery....

Can't wait to see more pics! Barb A./NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 15th, 2009 12:04:31 PM

Dr. Khuly,

I'm really sorry you are learning about chicken health in this way, it must be difficult and frustrating.

I also wrote in when you first found your chicken. I am an avid hobbiest who breeds chickens (I know that brands me as the ultimate dork, but please don't hold that against me. After all Eartha Kitt kept chickens at one point, really, and she was totally cool.)

I would really reccomend that you also talk with someone who specialized in poultry. As in, a university extension agent who specializes in poultry disease. I know that an avian vet is much better than a dog and cat vet, but the issues and diseases that you are dealing with in poultry are different from what you would deal with in a parrot or other usual house bird. This is why it is so hard to find an avian vet that will treat chickens - many claim they don't know enough about them to treat them.

As I mentioned before, many poultry diseases are diseases that a bird will be able to carry and transmit for life, even if you clear up the symptoms. So those new chicks that you ordered could very well catch what your bird has.

Did you narrow down what the bacterial infection could be? Or what 'possible viral etiology'? I really does make a difference. There are some diseases that will have such a negative long term effect on a flock, that breeders have culled their entire stock because of them, and then had to build back up from what they could find from stock they had previously sold to other people. This is something no breeder would do if they did not feel it was absolutely necessary... which is why I'm urging you to use extreme caution when you are treating this bird, and when you introduce her to your new flock. It would be heartbreaking to have your new flock get wiped out.

Also, you should keep  in mind that very few antibiotics are labled for laying hens, and it is not advisable to eat the eggs from a hen that has been treated with an antibiotic that is not deemed safe to give to laying hens.

This is going to sound really horrible, but many experienced chicken keepers would recommend culling the sick hen, disinfecting, and beginning anew with healthy birds. It sounds cruel, but it is so very difficult to have a flock with illness in it. And it is hard to watch sick birds suffer from an illness. Also, if your flock is carrying something contagious (even if there are now symptoms), there is a risk to any other chickens in your neighborhood.

Please check out these disease guides, note how many of the diseases cause the birds to remain carriers even if the symptoms are eliminated:

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/disbact.htm

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/disviral.htm

Anouther good source:

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/diseaseinfo/

At the very least, I would keep your new chicks very stictly quaranteened from the sick bird, and get your sick bird tested for specific poultry diseases (some university extension labs will do this) so you know what you are possible dealing with introducing to your new birds.

Also, flock social dynamics can be difficult - introduction of the new chicks to the older bird shouldn't happen until all birds are the same size, and then it must be done carefully - it is likely they won't love each other at first sight.

-FarmFashion

FarmFashion March 15th, 2009 12:08:06 PM

I agree with FarmFashion -- it's really important that you keep the sick hen as far away from those new birds as possible. A sick chicken should always be kept in a cage away from the rest of the flock. I've never had the heart to cull sick hens like many "oldtimers" recommend, I always wanted to give them a chance with medication. Even if Elsita were healthy, you should wait to introduce the "newbies" to Elsita until the babies are several months old, i.e., fully feathered pullets and large enough to defend themselves when Elsita would try to establish herself on top of the pecking order. A good place for getting advice on chicken keeping is The Easy Chicken Message Board: http://members3.boardhost.com/shilala/ I had a group of folks help me through a major crisis when a setting hen was starting to kill every one of her chicks that had hatched. And I'd also recommend the book "Chickens In Your Backyard" by the Luttmanns: http://www.amazon.com/Chickens-Your-Backyard-Beginners-Guide/dp/0878571256/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237135606&sr=8-1 BTW, I'm thinking Elsita has a fighting chance because she's been sick for so long but hasn't died.

Gigi March 15th, 2009 12:27:04 PM

All pets resent being given medications. It' no different then trying to give a kid castor oil. 

Evet March 15th, 2009 12:49:07 PM

If ever I'm stressed out, and need a laugh, I know it's just a click away at Doolittler..

I don't think I'd call you crazy, more  adventuresome.. and  willing to take a challenge.. Keep it up, and enjoy it.. I'm in the same boat on a bunch of my relative's thoughts.. I donate a week, or so of my vacations to do medical missions.. and I'm not afraid to go to places where the living conditions are anything but ideal..

barri March 15th, 2009 02:12:02 PM

In defense of the USPS, they take excellent care of their live deliveries. Yes, there are some post offices who do stupid things but, for the most part, they handle live deliveries with care. My partner is a rural mail carrier and they get everything from bees to crickets to chickens to roosters.

I would request they call you when the chicks arrive and you go get them at the post office. That way they are in a controlled temperature environ and not out in the heat traveling the mail route. Much less stress on them that way. I don't think my partner ever takes a live delivery out. She says that usually the critters are with their new owners long before she would even make it to their mailbox.

PaulaO March 15th, 2009 03:00:43 PM

FarmFashion and Gigi: Thanks for the advice. Don't worry--I'm taking it slowly on the concept of ever introducing this hen to my chicks (certainly not before six months and maybe...sadly...never). I'm still waiting for culture results, btw, though the laryyngeal swab was lots of gram neg rods and her white count was 87K (80% lymphocytes). As to a virus underlying...that's tougher to know.

I've also taken your recommendation (and Gina's over at PetConnection) and I'm having a more poultry-oriented veterinarian take a look at her results when they're complete. Though Dr. Harris is considered tops in his field and sees lots of backyard poultry, I agree, second opinions are indispensable. Will keep you posted.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 15th, 2009 04:37:35 PM

Sounds like you don't need another person to tell you to keep the hen away from the day-old chicks. =)

I'm surprised you chose a Dominique, due to the heat/humidity down there.  Are they popular in Florida?

I myself have 25 (of 5 breeds) coming mid-May, after I swore last year that I would never raise chicks again, only let a hen do it.  Well, look where saying never got me.  Fair warning:  around 5 weeks old or so, chicks REALLY STINK.  You will want them in your garage or anywhere but your house by then.

Julie in OH March 15th, 2009 04:57:24 PM

I have to comment on this. I really think your a bit niave. I rear poultry, and have for more than 10 years. By selecting 1 cockerel and 5 pullet chicks, you've ensured the death (by what means you do not know) of an unknown number of cockerels. With the hatch rate being roughly 50/50, what happens to the  unwanted boy chicks that aren't girls? They get killed, usually within the first day of life. And sexing of day-old chicks isn't exactly a 'humane'  procedure, unless they're sexed by blood which is unlikely given the time frame for safe delivery to your local PO. The fact that they allow you to select pullet versus cockerel chicks and promise "humane" delivery doesn't alter the underlying issues with hatcheries. These guys have just found a way to market what they do a little better. Pretty website, cute chicken pictures, pet concept thrown around a lot. Charming. Also, fewer than 25 chicks in a box often leads to significant chilling and greater percentage of chick death in transit, and a higher incidence of post-transit stress.

Want humane? Order 25 straight run chicks, then slaughter the excess yourself so you know exactly how they lived and died - and at least they can provide food for someone rather than being tossed in a garbage can at a mere 24 hours of age. Then, if your town allows and you've got the space, keep one cockerel so that you hopefully don't ever have to order chicks from anyone again.

And cull that hen. Chances are she's infected your entire establishment. Hatchery chicks with their endless vaccination and antibiotic treatments are not bred for vigor and health. They retain and spread disease like it's...well...plague.

melissa March 15th, 2009 06:20:12 PM

Melissa: I don't need to be told I'm being naive. I am the very definition of naive--that is, a first time chicken owner.

While you raise excellent points on hatchery issues I indeed knew nothing about, and I may well revisit my order as a result, I have to strongly disagree with your approach to my hen. "Culling that hen" is not an option. I don't care how long anyone's been raising any given species, I will not take their advice to kill or abandon an animal just because it's sick. The hen has plenty of alternatives that do not include the traditional solution. Just because she's a chicken doesn't mean she's not a pet.

Sorry if that sounded snippy. But chickens are people too, you know? 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 15th, 2009 07:36:26 PM

Julie: I checked around specifically for especially docile breeds that lay reasonably well and do well in the heat. Because they're popular in the islands I figured they'd do great here, too. But while I'm rethinking my order I should probably solicit your opinion on their heat tolerance (btw, we're more temperate than you might think, we don't ever get above 98). Let me know. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 15th, 2009 07:40:09 PM

Julie: While you're at it, what would be good in Houston?  (Yep, I've been considering the possibility too.  Now that I'm house hunting, the concept of fresh garden fruit and veggies is morphing into "and what else will fit in a city yard and provide fresh food?"  Of course, eggs was right in there.  Not sure I'd have room for a goat although I'd love one!"

PJBoosinger March 15th, 2009 08:21:36 PM

Melissa: Comin' back to you with more apologies. Thanks again for your take. I needed it. :-)

Dr. Patty Khuly March 15th, 2009 09:03:41 PM

Have you considered ameracaunas and sourcing chickens locally?  I don't know how far they are from you, but there are many small poultry breeders in Florida.  Look at eggbid.com as a starting point, and look at breed clubs for those poultry breeds that interest you.

I got some excellent welsummers from a batch of hatching eggs I got from florida.  Lovely birds.

jen March 16th, 2009 09:48:23 AM

I wanted Ameraucanas (my first choice) but could not find a small batch source. Thanks for that info, Jen.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 10:07:59 AM

If I were looking at buying a certain breed of chicken, I would start with a breed club. Not all breeds have clubs, but many do. Some breed clubs even have forums and breeder directories.

If you ever intend to breed your chickens (the fact that you want to order a rooster makes me think you might), and want the results to conform to the breed standard, I would start with birds from a breeder rather than a hatchery. Expecting a hatchery bird to conform to a breed standard is a lot like expecting a puppy mill puppy from a pet store to conform to the breed standard.

Ameraucanas, for example, are mostly mislabled by hatcheries - none sell true ameraucanas, they sell a mutt that lays multicolored eggs, rather than pure blue, and they do not conform to any true color variety. Hatchery birds are 'Easter Eggers' a nickname for multi-colored egg layers, not Ameraucanas.

You can check out http://www.ameraucana.org/    they have a breeders directory. In looking at a breeder, I would do online research as well to see if I could determine what their reputation is.

Careful with eggbid - it's fun to look at, but there are lots of disreputable sellers on it too, and I've heard of people getting sick birds.

"As to a virus underlying...that's tougher to know"

There are ways to test for this.

I would check with the extension service in Florida

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/extension/poultry/

maybe contact this guy:

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/extension/poultry/contactus.html

I did a test for multiple diseases on my flock because I wanted to know for sure they were clean for breeding purposes (selling stock). I was sent a package of tracheal swabs, sent it back, they tested for multiple diseases including common viruses, they tested by extracting the DNA from the swabs. I did the test through a poultry supplier called First State Vet Supply, who sends the swabs out to a Maryland lab, it cost about $95. As a vet, you could send the swabs directly to a diagnostic lab and not go through someone else like I had to.

Sorry for the length. Obviosly a chicken enthusiast, here.

-FarmFashion

FarmFashion March 16th, 2009 12:40:03 PM

FarmFashion: Yeah, when we recheck the labwork in two weeks we'll be sending in a variety of virus-specific tests (ILT is one that comes to mind). Truth is, though this bird's provenance is unknown, we do know she's been around for two years as a solitary chicken. That really helps us feel more confident that she doesn't have some of the crowding-specific viral diseases. 

And I will be contacting MyPetChcken today. My understanding is that they source their Dominiques from a breeder, not from a standard commercial hatchery. 

Thanks for all your help, btw.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 03:14:16 PM

"My understanding is that they source their Dominiques from a breeder, not from a standard commercial hatchery."

It's a little like a pet store saying they get their pups from breeders not puppy mills. A good breeder would probably have more demand than they could keep up with for their stock based on their name and reputation, without having to distribute through a hatchery. Not that there are the same exact issues of neglect or abuse with hatchery sources as there are with puppy mills (unless you have an issue with the way that they discard baby male chicks as already mentioned. To be graphic, I have heard one way they are disposed of is that they are thrown into grinders, alive. It is such a quick death it is considered humane. One source of poultry meal.) That said, though, there are plenty of people who buy birds from hatcheries and love their little flocks - it's all in what you want.

The virus thing - I don't think that the possible viruses are necesarily related to crowding, just exposure to the virus in a way that allowed her to catch it. Didn't I read in one post of yours a while back that you tend to find dead roosters that had been used in cock fights in dumpsters near your office? That could be a source of exposure (perhaps the hen went dumpster diving in her homeless days?).

O.K., I will now hush up about chickens and go do some chores. Good luck!

-FarmFashion

FarmFashion March 16th, 2009 03:54:31 PM

I'm sure FarmFashion & others can speak more knowledgeably about heat-tolerant chooks, but here's what I understand:  chooks cool themselves by panting, and through heat loss in their combs.  Ergo, a single comb can dissapate more heat than, say, a pea comb.  That's why breeds that do well in very cold weather  (Dominiques, Buckeyes, Jaerhorns) tend to have tiny combs.  The Wellie cockerel I had over the winter suffered frostbite on his comb & wattles.  (Sadly, I can't say he got much sympathy; he was a nasty bird, so I was happy for him to become my neighbor's dinner last month.)

My Buckeyes have panted during the summer, and they were bred for our weather.  I have been trying a number of breeds to find out what suits our climate & needs best, hence my buffet-style approach.  =)  I would find info about chicken breeds much the same way I'd learn about dog breeds:  research, finding a local expert (mentors sure come in handy!), and meeting a few specimens.  =)  Extension can be a wonderful help, as can 4H.

@Jen:  I like my Wellie pullet too.  She just a hatchery bird, but she's very curious & seems the most intelligent (although that is not saying much).  My Sussex seem the most people-friendly.

@PJB:  see above. And one of the nifty things about chickens is that they will eat practically anything. Scrape your plate at dinner & the chooks will come running for their treats.  Old, stale bread is a big hit.  Mine love everything from hamburger to slightly wilted parsley.  So if you go with that garden, and you want to try a new veggie, go for it: if you don't like it, the chickens probably will.

Oh, and one last thing for Dr. K:  chickens will never be "people" to me. They will always get humane treatment from me (well, okay, maybe I did play baseball with the ever-attacking cockerel...), I'll always toss them the grubs from my lawn, they'll get lots of good food & plenty of ranging outside, but they simply don't count as much as dogs, horses or cats (and, presumably, goats =)) do.  I know there are lots of chicken folk who will disagree with me, but they are not smart animals with personalities, so butchering one affects me not at all.  I didn't even have to put on my food animal hat to think this.

Julie in OH March 16th, 2009 09:03:03 PM

Your experience highlights one of my sayings about vet medicine and poultry: Nobody wants to be a poultry vet (ok, there might be one such person in each class, but they are...exceptional). My experiences with poulty in vet school taught me that chickens were biologically and genetically manipulated creatures that are best examined once dead. I had to get my own chickens to start to learn about chicken health (as opposed to pathology). The best medicine for chickens is space, bugs, pebbles, a bit of grain and somewhat clean surroundings. If they don't do well on that, then the problems are likely chronic and viral (including immune suppression). :-(((

brebis noire March 17th, 2009 06:28:26 AM

Dr Patty, I didn't mean to say that you should cull Elsita. She appears to be simply a poor-doer, an animal that is chronically sick, but not necessarily a danger to any of your other chickens (that is after a quarantine period with good nutrition to make sure they are strong enough to ward off the opportunistic pathogens Elsita is harbouring). I'm definitely not a poultry expert, but I've had and seen poor-doers before, and as far as I can tell, they are a danger only to themselves. The only things I'd really worry about are the highly contagious parasites (the "knowns" - i.e. coccidia and lice).

brebis noire March 17th, 2009 06:34:48 AM

Thanks brebis noire.

And Julie in OH: I truly don't intend to treat all of my chickens as pets on par with my dogs and goats. I can kill chickens with the best of them (OK maybe not as fast as my great-grandmother, but I did more than my share in vet school). Problem is, Elsita is strange and different. I can't help thinking she's more than just a normal chicken. That happens sometimes, you know?

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 08:07:47 AM

Dr. K, that's how most farms end up with an odd type of "pet" or two! LOL, some of them are "strange and different".

What a nifty discussion.  Think I'll copy and paste to save. Just in case Dr. K hasn't killed that accidental "kill-the-posts" bug yet :)

PJBoosinger March 17th, 2009 08:26:51 AM

That happens sometimes, you know?

Yep!  =)

Julie in OH March 17th, 2009 07:36:48 PM

Dr Patty -- My Pet Chicken calls Ameracaunas "Easter Eggers", and claims to have them.

Laura March 17th, 2009 08:29:25 PM

I'm glad you were willing to bring her to a specialist when your own knowledge ran dry.  Birds are about as similar to cats and dogs as lizards are.  I'll also echo the quarrantine advice - for pet parrots I've been told 30-90 days and a clean vet checkup.  Keep in mind that identifying illness in prey species is even harder than in predator species, as their entire survival depends upon hiding the illness not only from predators, but often from their own flock who would drive them out rather than letting the sick bird stay around to attract the predators. 

zandperl March 18th, 2009 12:38:39 AM

Got results today. Luckily, looks like all her symptoms can be attributable to the aeromonas in her trachea. She cultures a nastily multi-resistant aeromonas bacteria and yeast only sensitive to cipro and fortaz. I'll be adding in the diflucan for the yeast, as well.

This is apparently a common infection in SoFla birds after aspirating standing water. 

And, btw, she's gaining weight and looking much better. Not a sneeze or cough in 24 hours. ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly March 18th, 2009 08:27:16 PM

Glad to hear the good news.  =)

I don't mean to pry, but around how much did the lab tests cost?

Julie in OH March 18th, 2009 10:12:18 PM

Julie: The vet's someone I've known for 20-plus years (he treated my first Lovebird when I was in High School and later an Umbrella Cockatoo I was fostering and eventually placed with one of his friends. Since he does all his own cultures, cytology and bloodwork (most avian vets do) he charged me at cost (a whopping $70 for what should have cost around $400). I supplied my own meds. Virology will likely cost much more since it's out of the office work, but I was prepared to pay what the work was worth--so now I've got some slush to play with. ;-)

Yes, being a vet sometimes has its benefits. After all, how else could I have paid for my Sophie Sue's surgeries and radiation treatments last year? Market value for her for 2008 was about $22K. I paid maybe $6K. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 19th, 2009 08:47:15 AM

منتديات حلوه حيل فيها توبيكات جديدة وحصريه ومريت على قسم كول فيه صور ماسنجر و رموز ماسنجر وحتى خلفيات ماسنجر و ثيمات ماسنجر موجوده وللي يحبون الكوره فيه تغطيات رياضية وفيه اخبار رياضية وعجبني بعد قسم الرسائل فيه رسائل كول و برامج للجوال و ثيمات للجوال و العاب للجوال كلها حصلتها واممممم بالنسبة للبنات حدث ولاحرج فيه فساتين خفق و ازياء جديدة لافضل المصممين و ديكور للمنزل و اطباق و حلويات وقسم عن صحة الانسان وجمال الجسم و العناية بالبشره وللي يحبون الخواطر والشعر فيه خواطر حزينه وخواطر شوق تعبجكم و قصص للي يحبون القصص والاقسام الترفيهه قسم الصور مميز صور روعه واغلبها صور جديدة وغريبة ومضحكة وللبنوتات الصغار فيه العاب طبعا العاب بنات يحبها قلبكم نجي للتصميم وعشاق الفوتوشوب فيه صور للتصميم و فلاتر و فرش تحبها قلوبكم و برامج حماية و بلوتوث جديد واللي يحبون الاناشيد فيه اناشيد اطفال واسلامية جديدة نجي لأهم شي سيرة الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم وسيرة الصحابة و اذكار وادية موجوده الله ينفعنا بها وبس

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