I think you may be putting Cesar in a more violent light than he deserves. I have never seen him hit, bite, kick, or stare down a dog. Have you? However, I do agree that biting and kicking will in no way shape or form help the dog and will in fact just result in an attack. Ceasars methods are certainly not meant for every dog, but it does help certain dogs. The same goes for the "non-aversive" methods you mentioned, it'll work with some or most dogs, but not all. His core concept of being the pack leader is spot on, you have to be in a leadership role with your dogs otherwise those commands and recalls will go in one ear and come out the other.

I honestly don't see how someone can watch dog whisperer and think... hmm, I should smack my dog so he learns. To this day, I have yet to see him say that hitting a dog will invoke a positive response. His method, for the most part, is based on touch. Touch to divert the dogs attention and also on establishing the owner as the pack leader and showing the owner how to maintain that role. If you have proof that he physically hits the dogs then I would like to see it.

Was the dog euthanized at the owners request?

William March 16th, 2009 08:29:24 AM

I have to say that I am really dissapointed.  As a Certified Dog Trainer I find that pack motivated training is much more effective than so called positive motivation techniques.   We are the only animal on this entire planet that uses bribery to manipulate members of our society.  You will never see mama dog with a pocket full of liver treats.  And yet, that does not mean that one has to be aggressive, throwing dogs down to the ground, staring them down, alpha rolling and yelling to be effective.  In fact, I very rarely do any of those things.  Taking the time to understand a dog from a dog's perspective (which incidently is exactly what Cesar Milan teaches), and decoding the language of dogs can offer a facinating glimpse into our dog's psyche.

95% of my clientelle have participated in at least one Veternarian recommended treat training class and have failed to complete even the simplest of behavioral modification tasks.   Now, is that the fault of the technique or the trainer?  That is an interesting question.  But than shouldn't the same be asked of Pack Leadership style training? 

I think the larger issue here is that there is no regulation as to who can call themselves a dog trainer.  Most so called trainers in this country in both methodologies have little to no education on how to properly handle most types of behavioral issues.  This means that they trying to imitate the techniques of others and pass it off as their own.  Unfortunately to sometimes disasterous results.

To condemn an entire method due to poor education of some and the stupidity of others is proposterous. And to make Cesar Milan the scape goat is even more ridiculous.  Every program on TV, Video and book clearly states that none of his techniques should be attempted with out the assistance of a trained professional.  And to bring it back to your initial story of your relative who bit her dog in the ear, that kind of response has never nor ever will be condoned by any educated dog trainer.  It's a little tip learned by watching Disney's Snow Dog.

Alisson March 16th, 2009 08:56:23 AM

Your title metions Cesar Milan. Then you give this list of things I have neber seen Cesar do. "Hitting or kicking the dog (41% of owners reported aggression) Growling at the dog (41%) Forcing the dog to release an item from its mouth (38%) “Alpha roll” (forcing the dog onto its back and holding it down) (31%) “Dominance down” (forcing the dog onto its side) (29%) Grabbing the jowls or scruff (26%) Staring the dog down (staring at the dog until it looks away) (30%) Spraying the dog with water pistol or spray bottle (20%) Yelling “no” (15%) Forced exposure (forcibly exposing the dog to a stimulus – such as tile floors, noise or people – that frightens the dog) (12%)” Care to comment, or is it just "kick the dog" (Cesar Milan) time? Cesar's main message is pretty simple: 1) Dogs need excercise; 2) Dogs are not children; 3) Use a real choke chain and a real leash and walk your dog with you setting the agenda. Sounds right to me! Patrick

PBurns March 16th, 2009 09:01:46 AM

Cesar is a fruitcake.  He really is.  He uses a cookie-cutter approach for all issues, most of which involve a slip collar or prong and lots of heavy corrections.  He also uses that tsh sound and the finger poke.  He thrives when the dogs roll over in fear.  As anybody who is knowledgeable about training will tell you, you NEVER use coercion (AKA "punishment) for aggressive or fearful dogs.  It simply riles them up more.  

As a pit bull owner, I hate Cesar for another reason - he has led too many people to believe that if you are a strong "pack leader" you can teach any dog to not be dog-aggressive and they will live happily ever after.  He is able to do that as he has an army of assistants and exercises his dogs 8 hours per day (literally).  After that, of course they're too exhausted to snark at each other.  But for those of us who live in the real world, we need to keep in mind that not all dogs can be trusted off-leash around other dogs.

Cesar does do some good, though, I will say that.  He teaches people that dogs are not little kids in fur suits.  They need exercise and boundaries.  And he educates a lot of people that pit bulls are not bad dogs.  

Overall though, I still feel that is a fruitcake.  I could rant about him all day long, so sorry for the length of this!

Pit Bulls Make the World Go 'Round

Liz March 16th, 2009 09:03:10 AM

well my vet is not the place I go for a behavior issue first off....and with the focus on keeping our pets weight down how can you advocate food related behavior mod?

I have never seen Cesar do anything outwardly aggressive like hit a dog, and I find his techniques work quite well.

of course, I've never seen him bite a dog either....seems like that idea was her own and maybe not such a smart one.

sorry, I'm with cesar on this one and the point he frequently makes is one I find to be true over and over again. Many times it's the owners that need the training.

LorriM March 16th, 2009 09:12:43 AM

Cesar Millan promotes dominance-based training methods. While he does not hit, punch, or kick dogs (for all that some of his detractors claim that he does), those pokes and "hand bitess" aren't loving massages. Often, not always by any means, but often, when he says a dog is in a "calm, submissive" state, the dog is shut down or clearly intimidated.

But the worst thing about his approach is what it encourages less experienced people to try. Every show has the "don't try this at home" disclaimer, but people do. If you're not as experienced and as genuinely confident and secure as Cesar is, you're going to get bitten a lot more often than he is (And he gets bitten fairly regularly.) And if you're not prepared to deal with the occasional bite as just a cost of doing training, that could be a death sentence for the dog.

In addition to that, unfortunately, sadly, people do watch Cesar and conclude that they should be hitting, punching, or kicking their dogs in order to be "dominant" and put a stop to behavior problems. I suspect Cesar Millan would be appalled at some of the idiocy committed against dogs in his name, the fact is that these people feel empowered and justified by what they think is his example. There are even trainers out there who tout themselves as "using Cesar's methods" who are simply outright abusive--but they gull people who don't know any better with the invocation of Cesar. You might say, with some justification, that Cesar can't be responsible for what every idiot on a power trip does, but the fact is that if Cesar Millan were using more modern, more reliable, less dangerous methods, these people wouldn't have him to use for cover.

The downsides of getting reward-based training wrong are far less dangerous.

Lis March 16th, 2009 09:15:00 AM

Excellent discussion--so early in the morning, even! 

I always find it interesting when trainers and avid dog people (who have excellent common sense and know what they're doing) agree with Cesar Millan's methods. Because to me the concept underlying the method is beside the point. It's what I see average pet owners do in response to his [to my way of seeing things, undoubtedly aggressive] one-size-fits-all techniques that irks me. 

I also find it interesting that men are more likely to take Cesar's forceful concept of pack leadership and run with it--in both positive and negative ways. Please do not take that as necessarily misogynistic. It's simply been my personal experience. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 09:17:27 AM

LorriM: I'm not a behaviorist or a trainer. I rely on my specialist colleagues immensely for this, only rarely offering more than the basic advice--and usually in the form of veterinary behaviorist handouts. I tend to know what I don't know--hence my reliance on vet behaviorist opinions in this post.

I'm also huge on treats for training. IMO that's not inconsistent with my commonsensical (I think) approach to calories in-calories out mantra on weight loss. I urge pet owners to count the calories in their treats-for-training (though not usually for young, healthy, high-drive dogs) and subtract an equivalent amount from their meals. And remember, I like carrot nibblers and apple slices--hardly a Puperoni for every sit-stay-come. 

And no, I make no excuses for my relative. But she did admit to playing "pack-mama" out of desperation. It's not unlike other interpretations I've seen of "Cesar's Way."

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 09:24:10 AM

well my vet is not the place I go for a behavior issue first off....and with the focus on keeping our pets weight down how can you advocate food related behavior mod?

If your dog is getting fat from the treats you're using in reward-based training, you're doing it wrong.

And, perhaps it's rude of me to point this out, but when Cesar is training behaviors rather than correcting behavior problems, he uses treats and rewards. One of the believers in reward-based training, at least for teaching new behaviors, is Cesar Millan, Icon of Traditional Training. In his books, he says clearly and more than once that if you are starting with a puppy, or an easy-going adult without existing serioius behavior problems, you should stick with reward-based training. He believes reward-based training is not useful for the kinds of serious behavior problems he features on his show, and I and many others believe he's wrong about that. But for the average new-puppy owner with a healthy young puppy, or the adult dog whose primary problems are that he doesn't know what basic behavior commands mean or where he's supposed to potty, he's pretty clear that you should be breaking out the treats, not alpha rolling him.

Lis March 16th, 2009 09:24:24 AM

So your relative diddled around with what you claim is "the right way" for years, spent 20K, still had a dog that felt empowered to threaten her, did something colossolly stupid to the still-aggressive dog, got bit, and killed the dog.

And this is Cesar Millan's fault?

Why not name the neurologists, behaviorists, and trainers who took her money and left her with a biting dog instead?

H. Houlahan March 16th, 2009 09:26:47 AM

<!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } -->

“In contrast, non-aversive methods resulted in much lower frequency of aggressive responses:

• Training the dog to sit for everything it wants (only 2% of owners reported aggression)

• Rewarding the dog for eye contact (2%)

• Food exchange for an item in its mouth instead of forcing the item out (6%)

• Rewarding the dog for “watch me” (0%)”

This method may reduce bites from a dog.  However the "all positive" training method does not work for aggressive dogs.  It's like when I had my first Labrador Retriever, if I had a treat in my hand he would do anything absolutely anything that I taught him, and he learned very quickly.  But take away the treat and he didn't respect me enough to do anything.  In the eyes of a dog food is survival.  That being said I now realize you have to transition your dog into doing things because you are asking it to.  This means that you are the boss/pack leader (whatever you want to call it) and that there are consequences for not following pack rules.  I have dealt personally with aggressive dogs in the past and assisted others with aggression of their dogs.  Lures work but they don't last.  There are two types of dogs, followers and leaders.  They are both part of the pack, neither are loved any less, but followers don't tell a leader what to do.  A resource from Ed Frawley's (http://leerburg.com/746.htm) website which is a response to "lynching" of human aggressive dogs at first really bothered me, I mean it really bothered me but after thinking about it, I realized that if it is either this or death for a dog, I would do this.  He frequently has questions/answers listed in his articles at the bottom.  The following is an excerpt from one such question about dealing with an aggressive dog:

 

---

"There are times when an adult dog can have its dominance turned around with rather extreme measures by using our dominant dog collars. This does involve taking the dogs air away when the dog tries to attack the handler. These dominant dogs learn rather quickly that they are not a higher ranking member of the pack than the handler they just tried to bite. This process is normally over very quickly, it takes 3 or 4 sessions for a dog to realize he had better not try and bite his owner/handler. With police service dogs this should be done under the supervision of an experienced trainer or instructor. While it's an ugly process it often saves the life of a dog because it is a last resort that's done RATHER THAN killing the dog.

There are always going to be so called behaviorists who think they can counter condition a dog with motivational methods. These are people who have worked with shelties and golden retrievers their entire career. Their methods may work with some (emphasis on SOME) family pets with minor problems. Their methods do not work with dogs that have true aggression. When faced with dogs like these - these people walk away with lame excuses on why this dog is un-trainable. These self proclaimed behaviorists often offer dangerous advice that DOES NOT WORK !!! and in fact it is all too often drop dead stupid. When dog owners try these methods and the dogs continue to bite the owners or others the dogs end up being put to sleep. In many cases this is too bad because with pack structure training, correct obedience training and controlling the environment that these dogs are allowed to live in they can live safe lives."

---

I don't think this is a bad blog entry by any stretch, but I think you're going to get a lot of responses :P

Chuck March 16th, 2009 09:27:09 AM

I have to agree with some of the other commenters... You mention Ceasar Milan and then you go on to describe a host of "techniques" that I have never seen Ceasar do or advocate on his show.   Ceasar rarely touches the dogs and if he does it's only lightly to snap them out of whatever they are fixated on.    As many people have pointed out, Ceasar is not a dog trainer, he is a guy who has a gift when it comes to communicating and relating with dogs.  Because of this, I don't think Ceasar's methods will work for everyone without the addition of more classic dog training.

I think Ceasar get a bad rap when people distill his method down to only "dominate your dog"  (and I agree with the poster that said men tend to be more likely to take to this method) and then they take that and turn it into something violent and harmful, but when you look at what Ceasar is actually doing, I don't really see anything violent or even forceful about his methods.

Nana March 16th, 2009 09:27:18 AM

I'm not a Cesar fan at all, but I'd like to point out that the Monks of New Skete were the first ones to tell dog owners that they needed to dominate their dogs with alpha rolls, stare downs, and stepping on leashes to hold a dog in a down while looming over him. I didn't like them then, and even though they've now come out in newer editions of the book(s), saying alpha rolls are a bad idea, too many people heard it and believed them and passed (and continue to pass) it on. One of the scariest things I ever saw was a video where a Golden puppy with food aggression was scruffed and yelled at by its owner, to teacj it to give up its food bowl, while the owner's face was right next to the dog's teeth. Of course, the puppy got bigger, the situation got rougher, and eventually the dog was put down when the trainer and vet said something like "the dog's not to be trusted." Of course, no one ever looked at it from the puppy/dog's POV in that it's owner's weren't to be trusted since they kept attacking it every time they fed it.

I think the biggest problem with any trainer I've ever watched or worked with, whether they used positive/treat training (with or without clicker), or 'pop and yell' and everything in between, is that they don't explain how dogs view the world differently from people and how to incorporate those differences into how the owner views the dog. Without that essential understanding of how to get the dog to like and listen to you, and how to like and listen to your dog, the language barrier is always going to be so huge that only limited words and actions are understood on either side. It's like living in a foreign country and only learning the words and signs for "where's the bathroom?" and "where's the train?"

KateH March 16th, 2009 09:30:01 AM

@LIS

"Cesar Millan promotes dominance-based training methods. While he does not hit, punch, or kick dogs (for all that some of his detractors claim that he does), those pokes and "hand bitess" aren't loving massages. Often, not always by any means, but often, when he says a dog is in a "calm, submissive" state, the dog is shut down or clearly intimidated."

One of the best examples you can see on some of Millan's show is whenever he is dealing with a German Shepherd.  I have owned GSD's when I was younger and one thing I found about them is they don't normally lie to you with their body language.  If their tail is tucked between their legs and their head is darting around, they are nervous and not comfortable.  I have never ever ever (and I've seen all of the shows) seen a dog display fear when he says the dog is in a "Calm, Submissive" state.  If anything I see the dog like it is finally free, like it takes a deep breath and says "finally I don't have to do that stuff anymore" (be aggression, dominance, neurotic behaviour)

I personally don't agree with hitting a dog or placing a dog in extended distress.  However there are many medical studies that show Prong Collars are much safer than Choke Chains when correcting a dog (this was more of a response to someone else saying he uses harsh corrections).  But touching a dog's neck or hind quarters is a far far stretch from punching/slapping/kicking a dog.  I believe that sometimes when he is dealing with human aggressive dogs he is far too gentle.  If a dog is putting its mouth on a human, then that dog is either going to hurt someone, and/or be destroyed for what it did.

Chuck March 16th, 2009 09:40:48 AM

Dr. K in response to, "It's what I see average pet owners do in response to his [to my way of seeing things, undoubtedly aggressive] one-size-fits-all techniques that irks me. " You can't fix stupid. If a person lacks the common sense to know that violence will only result in violence then you can't expect much and you also can't blame Ceasar because those individuals are idiots. As for the one-size-fits-all comment, I personally said that his method would not apply to every dog, but that the core of being a pack leader would.

Why do you say "forceful concept of pack leadership"? I find that wording very interesting. How is it forced? If I understand your statement correctly, wouldn't you be doing the same by forcing your treat based method on a dog?

I, personally, don't believe either method is forceful and a lot could be learned from both. I support both equally as, I feel, both help dogs. As Alisson said, it should be based on the dog as every dog will react differently.

William March 16th, 2009 09:42:41 AM

I'm a little disturbed at people mentioning Cesar as using a "one size fits all" approach. I don't think the people who say this are avid watchers of the show. I've seen him on many an occassion use positive training methods for some of the more shut-down dogs. He doesn't use a one-size-fits all approach. However, the reality is that a large number of the cases he deals with are dogs that over a long period of poor ownership have developed such severe aggression issues that the majority of trainers would recommend the dog be euthanized. In fact, it's not uncommon for some of these people to have already worked with multiple different trainers and not met success. I don't think the majority of what Cesar does is at all abusive - -I think the vast majority of it is just basic corrections that every dog owner should give. Some of the more extreme cases he will get a little "rougher" about it, but again, these are typically cases where 95% of the trainers out there would recommend the dog be euthanized. I think it is far less humane to let dogs go with no correction, no manners, no discipline, no exercise (because the owners can't even walk them on a leash) than to do anything I've seen Cesar do...

Brent March 16th, 2009 09:48:54 AM

I'm not a trainer or behaviorist, just a dog-lover and owner.  I may have told this story before.

My first Australian Shepherd was a hard dog.  I found I had apparently never worked with/owned a hard dog before. 

My first clue was when all my old tried-and-true tactics (which mostly involved dominance) just DIDN'T WORK with her.  For every dominance move I made, she just leaned back and got more stubborn.  I'd try to force her to give up something she had in her mouth, and I could see in her eyes that she was NOT going to back down.  And by the look in her eyes, I could tell that if I continued with what I was doing, at some point she was going to snap at me or bite me.  (She had a littermate who had done that to his first owners, I found out later.)

It occured to me that if my usual method wasn't working, maybe I should try something else.  So I stopped being so confrontational with her.  We practiced swapping out something she valued for something else (not always food), and other things like that.  Our relationship improved almost immediately.  She went on to become my heart dog, the one I'll always have as the greatest dog relationship of my life.  Learning to live with her changed my life, in GOOD ways.

I'm always a little bemused because it seems I hear/read a lot of people saying their dogs don't respect them, because I don't know what that means.  If my dog doesn't mind me, it seems to me that that's because I haven't worked with/trained the dog enough in ways the dog understands and appreciates, not necessarily that the dog doesn't respect me.

BTW, I'm not a big Cesar fan either, but he personally does seem to have a gift with dogs.  But I read a lot of people who seem to think he's the be-all and end-all of dog trainers.

Janice in GA March 16th, 2009 09:49:44 AM

Dr. K: It's not unlike other interpretations I've seen of "Cesar's Way."

And there is the problem, you hit the nail on the head. It's not Cesars fault that people misinterpret his way. He clearly provides warnings not to try this at home without a professional. You and others are in fact faulting one individual and the good he has done for dogs that would have otherwise been put-down because some person lacks the ability to properly reason. If a person takes your treat method and interprets it as feed the dog for every good thing it does and the result is an overweight dog, who do you blame? If you blame the owner then why do blame the owner in this case and not the individual that suggested this treat method?

William March 16th, 2009 09:50:40 AM

H. Houlahan: Excellent point! Thank you for that.

William March 16th, 2009 09:56:32 AM

@William

Very very interesting point william.

Chuck March 16th, 2009 09:58:39 AM

I'm not sure I see the correlation to your relative biting a dog on the ear and Cesar Milan, or to how dogs react in nature. Not sure I've seen dogs nipping each other's ear as correction - ever. While the pain your relative went through is inexcusable, seems to me that common sense would say not to put your face close to a stressed dog's mouth. Much of the research you quote (looking dog in eye, growling, etc.) relates in no way to Cesar's rehabilitation methods. As for the alpha roll, Cesar's method is different from the typical roll that some people feel the need to use in the heat of the moment. If you are against Cesar, you might better win the argument (if possible) by quoting more than one source, sources that are dog behaviourists (not veterinary behaviourists, many of whom who receive their "expertise" out of books) and by comparing what Cesar actually does to research that is direct and relative.

Sherisse March 16th, 2009 10:03:43 AM

H. Houlahan: Nope, not Cesar's fault. In fact, I don't think she'd ever heard of him at that point, not having a TV and all. But while all the trainers, behaviorists and neurologists were helping her use opposite techniques she applied the worst--and lost part of her face for it. It's merely an extreme example of the same concept. I use it to explain how our human instincts--and this was, undoubtedly, an instinctual response of hers--can easily lead to disasters. A lead in to the admittedly softer techniques espoused by Millan.

Back to Millan himself: I don't know how anyone can watch his approach to unwanted behavior in dogs and not interpret it as aggressive. He gets in the dog's faces. Perhaps I've only watched the shows friends and colleagues have railed at--one even where he was bitten--but I cannot conclude that his ways are even close to gentle. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 10:06:46 AM

While I do agree that people take Cesars show and make teir own training techniques which may not be effective, I do appreciate that he has tried to being awareness to dogs being dogs.

 

I hate the 'dog strollers' and 'dog purses' that are par for the course for some toy owners.  They forget that their dog IS a dog and needs exercise and stimulation.  Thank goodness he reminds people of that, at least.

 

Also glad that he promotes exercise as a behavioral control mechanism.  Someone earlier said if a dog was dead tired everyday it would be well behaved too, but I find that my dogs are more receptive to training in general after expending extra energy.  We wouldn't expect a five year old to spend all day in the house and go straight to school, without play, and be able to concentrate- same with dogs.  If they have a lot of energy to burn they will not be as apt to focus on you and on learning, and they will not be as relaxed. 

 

If my dogs don't get their exercise I can tell- they are not as well behaved and everyone is unhappy.  Far from being absolutely exhausted afterwards, they are relaxed.  I know they enjoy the exercise because they all get very excited when I grab my jogging shoes or their fetching toy.  It just might be their favorite part of the day- even more so than supper.

jen March 16th, 2009 10:08:07 AM

@Dr. Khuly

"Back to Millan himself: I don't know how anyone can watch his approach to unwanted behavior in dogs and not interpret it as aggressive. He gets in the dog's faces. Perhaps I've only watched the shows friends and colleagues have railed at--one even where he was bitten--but I cannot conclude that his ways are even close to gentle. "

You are confusing Aggression with Dominance.  They are two separate things.

Chuck March 16th, 2009 10:11:06 AM

The other day I had my "reactive" dog at the agility training field when a guy came in with his dog. He immediately began walking back and forth very close to my barking dog. As I gave my dog treats for calming down and looking at the guy, he walked straight over to him as I turned to fold up my crate. Dog starts barking again, and the guy stands up real straight, stares straight at my dog and points to him, making sharp Shh! sounds.

WTF idiot? I thought and instead said, please don't do that.

Anyway, I personally would not choose to employ a trainer who claimed to believe in dominance and being the "alpha". Which isn't to say that I don't believe there may be a time and a place for corrections, very occasionally.

But dominance theory just strikes me as superstitious insanity.

Also if you're not getting results with operant conditioning, you're doing it wrong pretty much plain and simple. People can train chickens, ducks, even crabs as I recall with rewards based training and YOUR dog is the special case or its the technique that is flawed. Right gimme a break.

Sheyna March 16th, 2009 10:11:31 AM

Sherisse: All great points but remember--this post is about how veterinary behaviorists tend to see Millan. They're on the front lines of this fight. They see the worst of the worst. Their beliefs may be skewed by that angle of approach (second and third opinion cases where Cesar's methods have gone way awry) but they're not so easily dismissed, methinks.

For all of you, recognize that veterinarians on the ground have a great deal of respect for the behavior specialists among their colleagues. When research like this makes the vet news it's undeniably going to change the perception of our profession with respect to Millan and his methods--for better or worse.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 10:17:18 AM

@Dr. Patty Khuly: If your relative has not seen or was unaware of Cesars methods than how can you even put her actions in the same statment as Cesars methods. That's highly irresponsible of you. You should probably research the methods a bit more. As Chuck said, "you are confusing Agression with Dominance. They are two seperate things."

It is beyond wrong to belittle the good someone has done without properly understanding their methods.

William March 16th, 2009 10:19:44 AM

Love Cesar Milan and his work with dogs.  I understand and appreciate his "Don't try this at home" warnings.  Mostly what I get from him is thinkin' stuff.

YesBiscuit! March 16th, 2009 10:25:54 AM

Dr. Khuly: Research is ever evolving. You can't base your whole existence on research because not all research is 100% true. Take a look at the vaccine issue and how things have changed in that respect. To clarify: Are you saying that you disagree with Cesar because of the research you mentioned? If so, please show me a direct correlation between his methods and this research.

I understand that as a vet, you have great respect for vet behavior specialist, but to place them on a pedastal and scorn one man, whose methods you have admitted to not fully seeing and to blame him for your relatives lack of proper judgement is wrong. One should ask themselves how many animals has Cesar saved that your colleagues would have put-down?

This is all I will say.

William March 16th, 2009 10:34:06 AM

I agree with Dr. K. that more men than women go straight to the aggressive and confrontaional training techniques (although I know a female cop who scares me with her agg/con attitudes), and I think it's not only that they confuse aggression with dominance, but that they've been taught that's how you succeed with human interactions. This comes right back to what I was saying about people not being taught by any trainer, or if trying it on their own, not learning (or caring to learn) about the differences between dogs and people communication styles.

I know men who think it the dog is in their way, they should yell and or shove/kick the dog out of the way. They think this is showing dominance, but it's showing aggression. A confident leader (the successful dominant) will move forward at a steady pace with a confident air that translates to the other dog as "I'm taking that space, so you should move." Dick Russell calls it 'yielding' (thanks, Heather, I found that from you) and Patricia McConnell calls it 'body blocking' but either way it doesn't require the human to be aggressive and it accomplishes the goal, which makes it a good training technique. Although they train in different ways, both explain to owners that they need to understand their dogs and that's the foundation for good training - the owner needs to be trained 'why' and not just 'how' to make it work.

KateH March 16th, 2009 10:42:28 AM

Sheyna: Perhaps its your method that is flawed. Don't be quick to point the finger at someone. By your own admission your dog continued to bark at the irresponsible individual that crossed the line in approaching your dog. If I tell my dogs stop they stop and come to my side and sit. Yours does not. Does that mean, my method is the correct method for everyone? No, it means its the correct method for my dogs. Its not your method and it works because their reaction is not aggressive. There is always more than one way to tackle a problem and some are more efficient than others, remember that.

William March 16th, 2009 10:45:46 AM

Aggression, Dominance -- perhaps the word Dr. Patty was looking for is violence.

You can show leadership to your dog without any violence at all. It can be part of your positive training program. Showing the dog that you are the source of all good things and that the behavior asked for will bring good things from you.

This turned a puppy which, when I brought him home, basically gave me the finger every time I tried to get him to do something, into a sweet little dog which follows me like I am a goddess.

He did chew on my nose a little yesterday, but we were playing on the bed. :) My face was in no actual danger.

Susan March 16th, 2009 10:58:37 AM

Firstly: Sometimes a dog is not temperamentally sound (due to genetics or abuse or some other reason we can't discern) and training can only accomplish so much. The 'cautionary tale' above confused me. Dogs aren't perfect creatures that can all be saved with enough love and positive training. Two years of hard work and one bad incident (although tremendously stupid) unravels the dog's training to the point where it bites so badly that it's owner needs plastic surgery?! I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this - but it sounds as though the dog was not mentally sound and would have bitten someone eventually, possibly with even less cause.

Secondly: I do not agree with Milan's methods and have not and would not use them to train my dog. Just as I would not use a choke chain, shock collar or methods like 'popping' the leash. Here's the thing though: Milan didn't invent these methods. He didn't create negative reinforcement or punishment - forms of operant conditioning that trainers, veterinarians and breeders have used since day one and some continue to encourage. So why not blame them? Why not blame B.F. Skinner while you're at it? I mean, he's kind of a jerk when it comes to animals anyway.

So is it Milan's fault that these methods are still prevalent in society? in part, yes. Because he is on TV, prefessing to be an expert he obviously has an influence on the dog owning community. Are these things mostly his fault? No. He's not the first person to shill these theories and he won't be the last. It would be better to educate than blame. Teach people alternative methods of training. Teach them how to read their dog's body language, cues and vocal warnings and how to respond to them appropriately.

I believe that reward-based training (or positive reinforcement) is just that - rewarding for both owner/trainer and dog. It builds trust, creates a safe learning environment and just plain works. Being a 'pack leader' doesn't require any 'alpha rolls', grabbing or other unsafe tactics. A simple "Nothing In Life is Free' mentality works just fine. If you have clear expectations of your dog and are consistent (training is a life long process) then your dog will learn. Which is not to say that the reward-based method is perfect. People will always make mistakes. We accidentally reinforce the wrong behaviours, let things slide when we get tired or frustrated. It's still better than training your dog to fear you and risk it biting you or someone else.

 

 

 

Lindsay March 16th, 2009 11:02:39 AM

"However the "all positive" training method does not work for aggressive dogs"

I strongly disagree. I work exclusively with rescue dogs and those pulled from high kill shelters. More often, however, I tend to classify behaviors as "reactive", "fearful" and "possessive" rather than just "aggressive".. these dogs THRIVE on positive reinforcement training. These dogs NEED to learn to TRUST again. Methods I have seen watching the "Dog Whisperer" are things I would never use. Even the equipment he advocates are unusable. Prong collars do not advocate trust between handler and dog. They advocate force and coersion. I have seen more progress with rescued dogs considered highly 'aggressive' like  Jindos and Akitas using positive training methods.

Jen March 16th, 2009 11:06:29 AM

Why anyone would want to dominate a dog they love is beyond me. It's akin to controllling human loved ones through domestic violence. I think getting anyone from any species to do what you want through intimidation is a bad idea.

Personally, I would never use these techniques in part because many people I know in the profession -- people I respect and admire -- have spoken out against them. Plus, I know at least one dog trained this way who ended up dead after biting the heck out of a little girl's face. It did not fix the problem. It made them worse.

Throw in the fact that the American Humane Association protested footage showing a dog being "partially asphyxiated," and I've got to say ... If choking isn't violence, I don't know what is.

The letter to National Geographic went on to describe the circumstances:

"In this instance, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck after first being "hung" by a collar incrementally tightened by Millan. Millan's goal - of subduing a fractious animal - was accomplished by partially cutting off the blood supply to its brain."

Just because someone is famous, doesn't mean they are good.

 

Roxanne @ Champion of My Heart March 16th, 2009 11:08:08 AM

William: From my post:

"I offer you this close-to-home story by way of explaining how easy it is for humans to become emotionally overwhelmed by a dog’s aggressive behavior. That’s when all of us feel the natural drive to turn around and treat our dogs on the violent terms we can all understand. Sure, we may not act on the impulse, but we undeniable feel it.

 

This is very different from likening her approach to Cesar's methods. It's an introduction to how these methods become popular by speaking to our basic instincts and being easily confused. 

Again, I'm not belittling Cesar's concepts, but I DO worry that they are rife for misinterpretation because they play into these core instincts of ours.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 11:22:36 AM

Perhaps the dominance method is a just masculine thing ... We had the pleasure to meet animal behaviorist Sarah Wilson when we helped launch Why We Love Cats and Dogs at the TV critics conference for PBS with her in January. Her method of identifying the specific type of relationship people share with their dogs makes perfect sense for identifying appropriate training techniques.

tripawds.com March 16th, 2009 11:22:41 AM

Lindsay: Thanks for pointing out this dog's flaws and allowing me to explain:

This dog was anything but normal. He was rescued as the only live dog in a litter of hypothermic pups discovered be a roadside in winter. He experienced seizures and a "personality disorder" that was eventually diagnosed as a manifestation of "micro-seizures" by neurologists at Cornell. The dog would be perfectly normal for days or weeks and then suddenly "snap." His underlying hypothyroidism (commonly implicated in/associated with aggression) didn't help any. 

It may be an extreme example but we do deal in these extremes on a regular basis. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 11:40:30 AM

Funny you mention Sarah Wilson. She and her husband, Brian Kilcommons were assisting as trainers of the dog in my example.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 11:41:54 AM

Dominance schmominance.

Two things: Temple Grandin commenting on Cesar Milan, and a Monday morning giggle.

Megan March 16th, 2009 11:42:53 AM

I think I have watched his show maybe once for all of 10 minutes, I can't be a fair critic.

In the old days (70's), obedience school was full of heavy-handed training, including pulling the dog off the floor "hanging". It scared me then, it still does.

I hold very close, that an "agressive dog" need to have thorough physical workup. Hidden pain goes a long way influencing behavior, as does medication(s).

I had one "toughie terrier" (that became that way at age 6yrs), and yes, confrontation was out of my book. Rewards, exchanges, and not always food either, was my method of choice. Why would I ever confront/escalate to the point of a "bite"? To have the dog learn that biting would be successful to win? Hell no.

BTW, this dog never bit a stranger, and the few lip curls given quickly disappeared, when casually "ignored" , instead of confronted/acknowledged.

Maybe this was wrong, but I felt it worked for us.

Barbara A./NH

Pocket's Story from NH March 16th, 2009 12:03:56 PM

Susan:  perhaps the word Dr. Patty was looking for is violence.

Agreed, Susan. I think that dominance *is* a form of aggression.  I have a *partnership* with my dog.  I may be the leader in that partnership, but if I have to force a confrontation to get her to do/not do something, then I have failed.

William, I think you read a different post than I did.  Nowhere do I see Dr. K blaming Cesar for her relative's bad judgment.  Further, I don't know how many animals Cesar has saved, but I *do* wonder how many have died as a result of people applying/mis-applying his methods at home, "warnings" be damned.

(And about those warnings.  A few years ago, I got the first season of his show from Netflix.  Everyone kept telling me that there were "don't do this at home" warnings on each of the episodes.  Guess what?  They were not included in the first season DVD.  At least, not within the individual episodes.  If there was a warning at the very beginning of the DVD, I missed it, and I bet plenty of other people did, too.)

Shelly March 16th, 2009 12:05:41 PM

Dominance is control of resources. Period. Being pushy and overbearing with a dog is aggression, not dominance. Dogs do not express dominance in a threatening manner, but in a confident manner, and who gets the resource may vary with the resource, not status. There is no dog-dog interaction in the world where a lower ranked dog is not allowed to protect it's own body integrity and the food or bone or whatever between its paws. So scaring the crap out of your dog by being aggressive and pushy is not the way to teach it to yield a foot for a nail trim. You will, however, successfully teach it NOT to growl in warning next time, and to maybe try snapping. Personally, I prefer not being part of a "pack". I get away with breaking all sorts of dog social rules because I have access to food and opposible thumbs. Seriously, who wants to butt sniff?

Compcat March 16th, 2009 12:29:58 PM

Veterinary behaviorist Karen Overall is my go-to person for all things behaviorally troubling in dogs and she's right there with the positive reinforcement people, so I'll stay where I am in my training methods. In my own experience with aggression in dogs (dog-dog aggression in my case), punishment didn't work. That's where I started, because that was what I knew. Fortunately, a trainer pointed me in a better, more effective direction, and now I have a dog who can function normally in public.

I think a lot of people who don't have success with positive training are doing it incorrectly. Somebody mentioned that their dog doesn't respect them if they don't have a cookie in their hand. That's because you're using food as a bribe and not as a reward. You need to use rewards that matter to the dog and you need to use them on a variable schedule once the dog understands the behavior or yes, it's not going to work. It's user error, not a failure of the method. Sheyna mentioned that it worked in chickens, ducks, and crabs. What she didn't mention was the whales, the lions, and the other large and potentially lethal animals who are routinely taught through positive-based training to cooperate with their caretakers.

Do I think Cesar is the debbil? No, of course not. There are things that he says that I agree with- dogs need exercise, dogs need boundaries, dogs feed off the emotions of their handlers. But those things are hardly unique to Millan or otherwise earth-shattering. All the reward-based trainers I've worked with will tell you the same thing. But I had to stop watching his show after religiously tuning in every week for several seasons because I couldn't take the stress radiating from the dogs anymore. It upset me too much to watch.

Katie March 16th, 2009 12:32:56 PM

I don't understand the positive training bashing in some of the comments.  Not only does it work, but it can be used by anyone.

I inherited a 3 year old, untrained 134 pound Neapolitan Mastiff when my cousin lost his home in the wildfires.   I weigh 126 pounds.  Each and every day I had to battle my way through the front door to go to work.  To Guido, the front door meant the dog park and he was not going to be left behind.   I began practicing NILIF and took private clicking lessons.  Guido learned self-control and he learned that he had control over his own life.  He had choices.  He learned to trust me.  The battles stopped.  

Diane C. March 16th, 2009 12:35:39 PM

Compcat, I agree with most of your post, but where are you getting that definition of dominance.  Specifically, why do you think it relates only to control of resources?  Dominance is exerting control over another entity, period.  That can be done in part by controlling resources, but it also encompasses physical and psychological control of other beings, and that control is often obtained through the use of aggression (or as Susan pointed out, violence).

As for the rest of what you say, yes.  I don't pretend I'm a dog, and I sure as heck don't want my dog treating me like I'm one.  If nothing else, I'd rather not play biteyface with her!

Shelly March 16th, 2009 12:42:57 PM

I have never understood the point of Milan's show.  If, as he says, "you shouldn't try this at home", then what is the show for?  Marketing?  

@Chuck, I too have Labs, trained the first one with food, and yup when I took the food away he ignored me.  So I became a better trainer.....   :)

Splash's mom March 16th, 2009 12:49:40 PM

It was someone here that posted about being a 'benevolent diety' to their dogs/animals and getting to reward them with good things for good behavior. It's started me down the path of clicker training and it's so easy. Okay, it's not easy for me- I have to think a lot more-but when the dog, goat, pig, or horse 'gets it' it's so fun.

And I'd like to see someone try to 'alpha' my 250 pound pig(with tusks). The pig would either run away screaming or slash with the tusks. But for food treats Piggy will really try!

redh March 16th, 2009 12:57:39 PM

@Shelly:

I think a lot of you are equating "pack leader" with confronting the dog and being abusive, aka violent. I don't see that in any episode.

Now let's be honest, can you really hold someone responsible for other peoples actions? I mean come on these people need to have common sense. For their lack of common sense you and others here have placed the blame on Cesar. That in fact is one major problem with society, everyone feels the need to point the finger at someone else. If a kid shoots up a school, then it must have been the movies, the games, or the music. We have to blame someone else because we can't take responsibility for our own foolish life choices. If people take his methods and attempt to apply them without proper knowledge or training its their fault! You can't expect him to police or have warnings plastered all over the place. He has a warning on the TV show for those kind of people, frankly he shouldn't have the need to have one period! People should possess a basic level of logic, if I have zero training in said profession then why would I try it. If I see a therapist on TV, and then I begin to provide therapy to other people and as a result one kills another or themselves, do I blame the therapist on TV or myself for thinking that watching a TV show gives me the proper tools to help these people? I would blame myself, who would you blame?

You say you wonder how many have died as a result of people applying/mis-applying his methods. That's good because you see as you put it, its people that are making those mistakes. If by watching the show you feel that when your dog growls you should smack it then its your fault you were attacked. I have repeatedly asked for proof of his aggressive methods (hitting, hanging, kicking) and yet none has been presented. All you see is people making excuses for others, blaming him because people misapply or apply his methods on their own.

It's also ironically funny that women are the ones saying that males are prone to this, "dominant approach", "violent", "aggressive" and so forth. A bit sexist I think. Especially considering that in the personal example it was a female who reacted with violence toward a dog and yet none of the males in these posts who agree with being a pack leader have demonstrated any support for violent or aggressive training. You are all gravely mistaken in assuming that being a pack leader means you have to violent or aggressive with your animal. Being a pack leader does not in any way shape or form involve any of those things. If my dog growls or attempts to bite someone, I would not ignore it nor would I ever even dream of slapping, kicking, chainingthem up, choking, dragging, biting, and so on. My dogs are my responsibility, their actions are my responsibility, and as such they should see me as a pack leader and they do. They have never been afraid of me nor will they ever be, because I would die before I become violent with my dogs. Like many others, I can get frustrated at times, but never have I reacted in any of those irresponsible ways.

William March 16th, 2009 01:03:12 PM

What I don't like to see in these discussions is a lack of understanding. Dogs are pack animals, in any pack animal there HAS to be a leader. Having said that most, by far the majority of dogs are born to follow and the expressions of 'dominance' are learned/ reinforced by their environment. That does not mean these dogs are dominant dogs. All growls are not dominance based, just like they are not all fear based. Truly dominant dogs are rare and I do not believe someone has dealt with one because they claim to have fixed an aggressive dog. I tend to dismiss anyone who says corrections or punishments are wrong, they don’t understand their dog, or they don’t understand how to correct. A sharp NO! is a punishment. I watch my dogs nip one another when someone gets to rough. I have a puppy that just got educated by my older dog a few minutes ago, they are playing again right now. The puppy doesn’t feel hurt or betrayed and the older dog was not ‘wrong’. If the puppy doesn’t hold it against the older dog, how can he hold it against me? I am NOT a professional trainer, but I have had a number of dogs that are well adjusted and happy. I reward behavior I like and punish behavior I don’t. You can certainly extinguish unwanted behavior by simply not rewarding it, but what about behaviors that are self rewarding? I am sorry for the rant, I get really irritated with people who think that rewards make the world go round and punishment is somehow wrong. A lack of understanding is wrong, no mater how you apply it.

jake March 16th, 2009 01:06:56 PM

Very useful topic for a discussion, thank you! As with some of the other discussions, I can't help but notice this discussion taking on the familiar "either or" or "let's do battle" character. The reason that the various approaches to training have their proponents and their detractors is that there are grains of truth to all of them, and none is fool-proof. None is a panacea for every dog problem. None is totally wrong either, and none is immune to being misused, misapplied, or misinterpreted with disasterous results. When one method fails to work with a particular dog or a particular problem, that doesn't mean that the method is flawed. It could be that it is applied incorrectly, or it could be that it is not effective for that particular problem, but bashing the entire method because it failed to bring results in a given situation is counterproductive. p I have two dogs with serious behavior issues. Both were considered for euthanazia by their supposedly no-kill rescue group. One is very dog-aggressive (but a total sweetheart with humans), and the other is fear-aggressive to small children (but a total sugar pop with everyone else, probably abused by kids). I have hired a positive trainer to work with the dog-aggressive one. After one introductory session and an intervening attack of a small dog by my dog, the "positive" trainer recommended euthanzia for my dog. Some positive training! Why did this happen? Because her version of positive training was ineffective on the type of aggression my dog has, and other methods are considered inhumane by this trainer, so her solution was euthanazia! Would it be humane to use methods other than "positive" to combat the aggression if they worked? I'd say yes, but I haven't tried. I have been through behavior therapy with my dog. She is on medication; I use some counter-conditionning, but I never let my guard down. With this negative experience with the "positive" trainer, I never took my other "problem" child to a trainer but have been working with him myself. I keep him strictly away from all children. I have used counter-conditionning with both of them from a safe distance, and they are likely to be better now, but I will not put them in a position where I might find out. Having had the negative experience with the "positive" trainer, would I dismiss the validity of positive training? No. I have used it with my non-aggressive dog, and I have used it with my "problem" chidlren to work on other aspects of their behavior (begging, stealing, etc.). It works like a charm! It's enjoyable too. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a nuance to everything, and embracing or dismissing something fully doesn't always make sense.

Natalie Kramer March 16th, 2009 01:18:45 PM

Yes, the point of the show is entertainment. Cesar has a skill with dogs that cannot be easily replicated by the general public, so I do understand how his methods can be misinterpreted and misused, with undesirable results.  But, who's fault is that?  If you have a dog with behavior problems, you probably did something to cause them, so maybe it isn't the best time to find your inner authoritarian.  Hire a trainer, people. 

I haven't watched all Cesar's episodes, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen him bite a dog on the ear.  In fact, why would anyone think it was good idea to bite a dog on the ear?  No offense to your relative, but that was a deeply deeply unintelligent thing to do.

I'm not a big fan of positive-reinforcement only training - for dogs or for children.  I don't believe in fear-based training either - hanging, kicking, hitting, etc - I think the most effective training combines positive and negative reinforcement with a healthy respect for the fact that dogs are not humans.

beth March 16th, 2009 01:21:29 PM

William,

I've seen quite a few episodes of Cesar's show, and he *absolutely* forces confrontations.  I don't think that's helpful to JQP dog owners, and I think it's downright dangerous to many whose dogs have behavior or temperament problems.

I haven't said that Cesar should be held responsible for other people's actions.  I do, however, think his show is problematic, and I don't see why it's such a bad thing to discuss how and why it is.  His show doesn't exist in a vacuum, and there are very real consequences for those dogs whose owners misapply Cesar's techniques.  I think that's a valid discussion to have (and something that Dr. K alludes to in her post).

I have repeatedly asked for proof of his aggressive methods (hitting, hanging, kicking) and yet none has been presented.

I haven't seen him do any of those things, so I'm not the person to ask.

Shelly March 16th, 2009 01:32:10 PM

Every couple of months, this topic crops up like an apparition. 

It is a TEEVEE show for goodness sake.  Look at all the fools who are taken in by crappy advertising on a day-to-day basis. Or the fools who mimic what they see on sensationalist programs.  There is a caveat with every program.  It becomes the responsibility of the VIEWING PUBLIC to determine whether or not to ignore that warning and suffer the consequences.

How is Millan to blame for an incident between an individual who reacted in an emotional, visceral way to a behavior she was fed up with? All of her other sources clearly failed her and on top of that, the dog had extenuating health issues that could have potentially led to the aggressive behavior to begin with. 

And this is Millan's fault how?

This argument is more about why people have to be told to not throw their hair dryer in a bathtub when it is plugged in and turned on too I suspect....

There is a saying that those who can, do, and those who can't, well... Can't.

I listen to a lot of people who are on both sides of the fence and I will maintain my position once again, that he offers the three things most people overlook.  EXERCISE, DISCIPLINE, then AFFECTION.  Although I may not agree with his LANGUAGE, I am personally at odds with some of his METHODS, I agree with his MESSAGE that dogs are far better off with BALANCE in their lives

Evidently, the circumstances regarding this dogs' health was not a mitigating factor in the outcome as far as these perfeshonals were concerned.

It is unfathomable to me that people are so willing to be taken in by this nonsense.

One more thing, he saves more dogs in a year than any of us have the capability to do in a LIFETIME if for the SIMPLE FACT THAT HE ALLOWS FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF A SOLUTION WHERE NONE MAY EXIST FOR THAT OWNER OR THAT DOG.  HE HAS ELEVATED A PLACE FOR DOG TRAINERS IN THE PUBLIC EYE TO A POINT WHERE WE ARE RECOGNIZED AS ESSENTIAL to the harmonious existence of man and pet.

What you as individuals do with THAT particular gift is wholly and entirely up to you.

 

Linda Kaim March 16th, 2009 01:45:59 PM

Shelly:

We obviously see things differently, I don't see any forced confrontation. I tend to disagree, I feel it may be helpful. Perhaps someone who can reason properly watches the show and instead of following the advise of trainer with poor judgement, makes the choice not to euthanize the dog and instead search for other means. A lot of people say his methods are a failure. Can you then provide proof that his techniques are a failure? I mean real solid proof not an opinion and not some proof of JSP(Joe six pack) taking his method and deciding he should smack his dog. I mean real hard evidence, where you can without a shadow of a doubt show me that he is totally ineffective. You may not agree with his methods, but if they help save a life is it really wrong?

Who said it was a bad thing to discuss anything? You present your beliefs and I, obviously disagreed and presented mine. There is nothing wrong with that, unless you believe we should only discuss how and why people believe his show is "problematic". Not everyone will share your beliefs or opinions and no one is saying not share them. Both sides have the right to express theirs own opinions.

You say you haven't seen him do any of those things and yet you label him and forcing confrontation and aggressive in his methods.

"Agreed, Susan. I think that dominance *is* a form of aggression.  I have a *partnership* with my dog.  I may be the leader in that partnership, but if I have to force a confrontation to get her to do/not do something, then I have failed."

So if you haven't seen him do any of those "aggressive" things then why label him in that light. Would it not have been better to say, you simply disagree with his methods and feel they are inappropiate?

Natalie:

I commend you for not following the trainers advise to euthanize your pet. I would urge you to seek a real trainer that may have experience in dealing with that type of aggression. Don't give up just because of one irresponsible person.

Did the trainer muzzle your dog before exposing him to another? If they did not, that should be the first sign that they are not the right trainer for your situation.

William March 16th, 2009 02:01:58 PM

The disclaimer is about as effective as the warning on a pack of cigarettes. People who watch the show are looking to learn. There are more people out there who can't or won't spend money on a qualified trainer than who will. Hell, it's a burden on my income and I make more than the average. But look, honey, here's a guy on TV who'll show us just what to do...for free...

Susan March 16th, 2009 02:10:36 PM

Linda:

Thank you for that. I agree with you 100%. My experience has mostly been with aggressive dogs as when I decided to adopt I made the choice to adopt the ones that no one would want because I wanted to save their lives. Obviously this is not the choice for everyone, and one thing that I can say is that balance does play a major role. My dogs would have all at one point been put-down, now you look at them and you would never know they were once aggressive dogs with serious issues. A little over a year or so ago I took one of them for training (tricks and agility), something I would not have been able to do when I first adopted them and one thing the trainer did was use me as an example. To demonstrate how pets feed off emotions, my dog was so balanced that when a jack russel attempted to attack her she merely backed away and sat when I told her too. She never barked or ran around like the others and in fact was the favorite among everyone there. No one believed she had the issues she had when I first got her. My first dog who was much more aggressive, he would attack without warning and was smart enough to go for the throat. He never came at me, perhaps because I have no fear of getting bit, but 7 months later and he won't attack anyone. Obviously I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I did, its something that is very time consuming and you really have to be emotionally balanced to deal with any of these things. Thats the one thing I learned from my experience how much our emotional states affect our pets. It's almost like we have a symbiotic relationship with them.

William March 16th, 2009 02:18:38 PM

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@Dr. Khuly: I knew this topic would get a huge number of comments :P  Excellent discussion though. @Splash's mom: I had to change my whole way of thinking, I still have that Lab and we now compete in competitive obedience trails. In my humble opinion as far as training a dog goes, operant conditioning and food is the best way to "TEACH" a dog something new.  However once they learn it and you're 100% sure that they know what you have taught them and they just don't do it, then it's time for a correction.  Human aggression in dogs is a pack behavior, and inappropriate pack behavior requires correction.  I would never trust a dog who has bit people that has been "rehabilitated" with treat training, even if they are properly rehabilitated and taught what behavior is not acceptable by other means, I would still always be watching that dog with a small amount of suspicion.  Bottom line is if you think it works for you, then do it, but remember for people aggressive dogs, their life is at stake.

Chuck March 16th, 2009 02:19:33 PM

Susan: Warnings may be ineffective, but if people have that mindset they bring about their own drama. If I see a surgical show on TV and then decide to operate on myself because TV showed me how to do it for free, then I am the idiot deserves whatever I get. Warnings are there for those people who can properly think logically. If they still ignore the warnings then they have larger issues that is no ones fault, but their own.

William March 16th, 2009 02:23:31 PM

Susan - My interpretation is different:  Look honey, here's a guy on TV who seems to deal with dogs really well.  I can't expect that my training, experience and background is the same as his obviously so I'm going to heed the warning about not trying the techniques myself.  BUT I may well learn some new ways of thinking about dogs and dog problems and owner problems by watching the show.  Knowledge is power and the more learning tools I employ, the better off the entire household will be!

YesBiscuit March 16th, 2009 02:47:11 PM

It can get somewhat frustrating.  Karma Yoga for Dog's . . Mr Snidleys Five Easy Steps to Complete Obedience! . . Harpers Best dogs for obsessive control freaks . . $124.00 value for only $19.95!!

As seen on tv!!

Argggggh

 

Evet March 16th, 2009 02:57:04 PM

Zen and the art of dog maintenance

Evet March 16th, 2009 03:02:06 PM

I just want to mention that positive reinforcement training does not have to involve treats or rely solely on treats.  I have a dog who doesn't care a whole lot about treats but loves affection, so I give him praise in a happy tone of voice, as well as physical affection when he does the right thing.  Other people use favorite toys, an activity like a game, a walk - things that don't make your dog fat and are good for them anyway.  No matter what you use, the reward is supposed to be faded over time.

 

 

Anne March 16th, 2009 03:04:41 PM

Linda Kaim: Yes, he saves dogs. Zero dispute there. Anybody talking about exercising and training your dog could do that, though. Does Cesar suck up all the air in the "trainer room"? Maybe. I'd like to see what less sexy techniques that involve more time and patience and less of a "you can fix this quickly" (which is not what he says, it's just the impression I get). Perhaps a really gorgeous trainer with a soothing, playful way about her would help displace the male dominated celebrity training circuit. Sad, but hot works for TEEVEE. ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 03:09:01 PM

Yes - enter Cesar Millan - and there is suddenly hope for people who have been told by professionals that their is no hope for their dogs but euthanizing solutions. Now- there are two elements to consider here. First. The fact that what is seen on the shows are only the most extreme last chance, NO local support/professional resource available or successful with changing that dogs behavior. This position is made clear at the beginning of each show as well as returning from the break both orally and in writing. This sotry also ignores the documentation of the long term success of the behavior turnaround by Cesar's efforts as documented by those dog owners in the "Dog Whisperer Season 1-3 Episode Guide" (available to look at in any mainstream books store). That said, there are MANY of the solutions that Cesar uses to change behavior that safely and without harm to human or dog, changes the behavior of the dog to the desired outcome. In writing, shows and tapes, Cesar Millan makes it clear - if it harms the dog - it is NOT Cesar's way - no matter what others construe. Further - he has also said that the solutions with the LEAST amount of effort and energy which will work with that dog's personality should be used. It is ironic that statements like "expressing canine “leadership” through the prism of our humanity" exactly demonstrate how so many professionals who are locked in the paradigms of their rigid definations are unable or unwilling to make the leap to a differening language applications such as the word "bike", where the argument is about one's understanding around a bicycle when what was meant was a motorcycle, changing the meaning all together. so prism of humanity indicates the exact opposite of stated position by Cesar Millan to take reactions out of the "human" expression, and place it in context of the animal (dog) context. In the context defined about "dominance" above, this article seems to imply that it is wrong for those dog owners who chose to have rules, boundaries or limiations of the dogs behavior. So to this writer, it seems to be preferred and recommended to allow the dog to eliminate, chew, bite, grown, claim, agress...because to refuse the dog their right to do what they want when they want, is to "dominate" the dog with inappropiate behavior. So I have to politely, and respectfully disagree with this writer's postion, both about Cesar Millan and about Cesar's solution applications (appropiately and accurately applied). Personally, as a 33 year professional who has taught safety health and environmental risk management, I have been able to take on around 35 last chance dogs that local rescues in the state of Arizona have given up on, many of these are featured in my youtube.com/cjanderson site, using these same, safe solutions correctly. Currently in my home, 6 last chance foster dogs from various rescues in Arizona live peacefully together, in well behaved harmony with other short term dog fosters who come in from places like Best Friends (DogTown), integrate immediately then move on to their forever home. Also, there are currently about 3,000 members of a yahoo email list that I personally own, who are helping each other learn how to safely and effectively apply Cesar's solutions to their own unique enviroments and lifestyles. The archives of the last five years of thousands of success stories are publically available to read as well from close to 20,000 members over these 5 years, who have come in, solved their problems in this way and moved on, no longer needing our high volume list. Thank you for provideing this venue for those of us (non-professionals) who are experiencing huge successes to share our stories and direct experiences.

CJ Anderson March 16th, 2009 05:28:30 PM

Funny how everyone gets so agitated when it comes to discussing Cesar Millan.  The only thing two trainers agree on is what the third is doing wrong.

I've worked in behavior AND training for a long, long time with both wild and domestic animals and have been around to see a lot of changes for the good.

Good trainers and techniques evolve with the times and don't remain stagnant.

The issue is not what is right or wrong but what upsets professionals in the behavior & training realm are that other avenues now exist to address behaviorial issues beyond what is demonstrated on the Dog Whisperer show or in Millan's products.

I've seen both good and bad trainers AND good and bad behaviorists and have enjoyed bantering over in-depth training principles with those with opposing views.

We all strive toward the ultimate goal of helping an animal or human and simply travel down different roads using different tools and stategies to get to that goal.

Today as more professional groups are formed, and now that academic training exists (they didn't when I started my career), behavior professionals want to see methods that work AND that can be safely replicated by the client (or viewer).

Millan's role has been to impress upon the masses that they need to train their dogs.

Adept professionals add all the tools they can to their tool box in order to help people and animals--and to strive for success for everyone while mitigating the risks of everyone involved.

I think that is what has the hackles up for so many professionals it may work for Millan but is dangerous to those who actually decide to "try it at home" without a professional.

Can't wait for the link...didn't see the article Patty.

Find me blogging at Ark Animals

 

 

 

Ark Lady March 16th, 2009 05:34:47 PM

Very interesting to read everyone's interpretations.

What would be even more interesting would be to see everyone's dogs and their behaviors.

I know that for our family, our english springer's behavior was excellent (until he was very old). I would have and did trust him with everyone. My dachshunds....their behavior is not excellent...unless you are watching them..and I would not trust them with small children, they play rough and can be nippy while playing and around food.

different dogs, same owner...what worked for my springer, my one doxie laughs at...sometimes behaviors and the training of dogs needs to be as different and adaptable as the dogs and owners thenselves.

training animals...and I have extensive horse experience as well...is never one size fits all. And one animal is never the same as the next.

and just on the topic of biting your dog....(my sister would use this method) if I had ever bitten my springer, he would have looked at me with his big brown eyes and licked my face.

If I were to bite my dachshunds...Ginger, she'd bit me right back...hard...Pickle would squeal and piddle himself...Miss Piggy would think she did something wrong and roll over on her back, and Wubby...she'd just look at me and look sad.

 

 

LorriM March 16th, 2009 05:35:28 PM

Maybe it is time for a large controlled study of training methods. 100 dogs trained Cesar's way and 100 dogs trained the veterinary behavioists' method. follow them from cradle to grave (similar to the obese lab study) and compare the results.

Hobson March 16th, 2009 05:48:59 PM

Not particularly gorgeous anymore, age will do that to a gal, but I and dozens of others could probably demonstrate that at any given time. I am comedic however.  Sometimes downright funny.

Saturday I could have demonstrated a quick fix to a dog that treats would have had no effect on, force was certainly out of the question, but contextually, the flooding that occurred was what he needed and it was easy, some would even say 'flashy', others would probably condemn me for "pressuring" this poor dog when all I did was provide him with options for behavior and articulate the right choice for him. I neither yanked, hit, shocked or kicked him. Millan-like? Certainly.  Harmful?  Unlikely. It's all a matter of perception.

Yesterday morning I could have demonstrated how to save my own bacon (and DID in fact, to a neighborhood of onlookers) as a young troublesome male German Shepherd climbed up the leash at me. I did not get bit, he came away with a newfound respect for me in particular, human flesh in general. Millan-like? Probably, with the exception that I came away unscathed. Harmful? Depends on what you consider more damaging. Me getting bit or the dog losing his life.  Is it likely that this dog will die if I can't fix him?  Absolutely.  Not too much more damaging than that.  It's my JOB to exhaust that possibility for the owners. It's what I do.  It's learned behavior.  If he learned it, he can 'un-learn' it.

Today I could have demonstrated how to get a lovely but painfully shy little hound to come to me without having to lure, bribe or forcibly coerce her in any way. As a matter of fact, she wasn't even on a leash. That was really flashy, magic even.

My point was that because of Millan, more trainers are getting more work because a subset of the population that is truly committed to their dogs and resolutions of their assorted sets of problems are actively seeking HELP, whereas before they would not, could not, did not know it was possible or where to go to try.

He just happened to be the 'man of the hour'.  He had a charsma, a 'presence' and was strategically placed in an area rife with ceh-leh-brih-tees that catapulted him to stardom. 

My other point is, we can interpret every thing we see but our perspectives will always differ whether tainted by our own philosophies or prejudices or what our own personal, anecdotal experiences teach us.

The bottom line is most dog training is rote, mundane and not that flashy.  What he brings, the network gobs extrapolate and segue for the most bang for the buck.

Love him or hate him, he has done more for dogs and highlighting the necessity for intervention in serious dog behaviors than any other trainer, at any other time.

Linda Kaim March 16th, 2009 05:52:01 PM

Ok, first off - let me be clear - I am not a fan of Cesar Millan. 

Not why you think though... my issue is one of responsibility.  I DO think that it's irresponsible to show people flooding and hanging techniques that are almost 100% CERTAIN to get an inexperienced individual seriously injured (and possibly do serious damage to a dog's psyche in the process) on a television show.  Simply saying "don't do this at home" isn't enough. 

That being said, I appreciate more than most what he does for "red zone" or dead end dogs.  We rehabilitate special needs (medical and behavioural) dogs through our private rescue, and our specialty is fear biting.  In my experience, this issue arises (these days anyhow) frequently from a fear period situation where the owner coddles the dog every time the dog gets scared and presents an aggressive response.

And YES, we take the "short road" to recovery.  My most successful case to date was a fear aggressive two year old Goldendoodle who had bitten three people, and the assessment by three trainers and a vet were all for euthanasia.  The owner had simply loved the dog to death.  We took her in, and within four days I had her performing all basic obedience exercises (which were previously learned) in the company of strangers, accepting handling by strange individuals and even approaching strangers enthusiastically on her own.

How?  Well, here's where I agree with the previous poster's comments re: the no-middle-ground issue.  We take the dog to a dozen public places the first day with a metal cage muzzle on (for the public's safety and so that I can still see her facial expressions).  She is fitted with a slip collar.  Every time a stranger enters her "danger zone" and she begins to tense up, she tries to hide behind me or lean on me.  She gets a correction, a short "nope" and is run through a few obedience exercises.  For compliance, she is rewarded with treats, for failure or slow compliance, she is corrected and then rewarded when she complies with praise and affection.  If she makes any sort of forward aggressive movement, she is placed quickly (not violently, but without hesitation) on her side and forced to deal with the situation.  Once she is calm, and has realized that the sky hasn't fallen, she is rewarded with praise and we continue with some obedience exercises.

We proceed from there to having strangers walk by and throw treats at her.  Again, negative responses ARE corrected.  Positive responses (tail wags, perked ears, happy body language during approach) are doubly rewarded by both the stranger and myself.  We quickly graduate to strangers feeding through muzzle while chin/chest scratching, then without muzzle, and within two days she is approaching strangers expecting treats and getting pats on the head with no tension.  The next two days are spent proofing (scary hats, scary walks, wheelchairs, sunglasses, loud voices, etc) with correction for a negative response, heaps of reward for a positive one.  Soon, the crazier the human coming towards her, the more excited she is. 

She was placed two days later in a home with another formerly fear aggressive doodle (the family worked with him on their own in much the same way, and corrected his issues so I was confident they knew how to handle her without posing a risk to those around them) and she's been there for over two years.  They have since adopted children, who she loves, and meets all the neighbourhood kids at the bus stop every afternoon from school.  The whole neighbourhood knows and loves her.

The point of this long-winded tail is this - it's not my way or the highway.  It's not black or white.  It's not positive or negative.  It's whatever works for that particular dog.  I've worked with dogs that couldn't take a correction, and I've worked with dogs who turned around after only a few as if someone had finally spoken a language they understood.  I've used prong collars, check collars, e-collars, clickers, target sticks, agility work, trained a dog and two cats for movies and commercials and dealt with an endless stream of fearful, unsocialized, aggressive and/or dominant dogs (or a mixture of any of the above).

What I also want to make clear is that this is not TRAINING.  Please stop saying that negative training methods blah, blah, blah.  This is behaviour modification. 

And as for positive training, even the great Ian Dunbar has been quoted as saying that anyone serious about competitive obedience adds correction into their repetoire.

One final note on Mr. Millan - Cesar IS confrontational.  OF COURSE HE IS.  He's there to fix a specific problem, and if he doesn't elicit that problem behaviour while he is there, how is he supposed to deal with it?  Not that I'm advocating violence or confrontational behaviour on the part of the pet owner - but the mantra has always been "don't get into a fight with an aggressive or dominant dog - but if you do, DO NOT lose."

There is a place in training for both schools of thought - and it's high time both schools realized it.  Neither is capable of dealing with all dogs.

Incidentally, Dr. K - it should be noted that Brian K and Sarah W are exactly the kind of trainer I'm talking about.  Treat oriented with check-chain follow through.  Personally, I'm a HUGE fan.  :O)  Although I do agree with previous posters - I don't believe that the example you provided was relevant.  Not only did the owner not perform a standard "dominance" move (although I have had MANY people tell me they've bitten their dogs... we're an odd species, aren't we??) but the dog was suffering from a physiological disorder, making her frustration all the more unacceptable due to the fact that the animal in question was not in control of its own behaviour or decision making.  The example was particularly irrelevant when you consider how many THOUSANDS of relevant examples there are to choose from.  ;O)

Kim March 16th, 2009 06:05:36 PM

Using coercive methods (negative reinforcement, or positive and negative punishment) does work, part of the laws of behavior, and so does positive reinforcement, with every single animal on earth. The difference is with your goals of training the animal. If you just want an animal to do whatever it is you want, then coercive methods can work, for a while, but sooner or later you will incur the fallouts or side affects of using these methods: avoidance, aggresion, fear of environmental factors, and apathy. These coercive methods are at best a bandaid, how good is a bandaid for a 9 inch gash on your arm? It may stop the bleeding and healing may occur, but you will have a nasty scar in the end. Whenever I feel that I might need to use a coercive method of training (negative reinforcement or positive or negative punishment) with a dog, housecat, bird or other small and relativley non-dangerous animal I will ask myself how I would change the behavior in an elephant, tiger, bear or chimp...something that is much too large and strong to use coercive methods safely (yes it is done but with great risk to trainers, keepers, patrons and severly limits the welfare of the animal). Most trainers with these animals train with primarily positive reinforment and by monitoring and changing the environment to increase the liklihood of the encouraged behavior. I also think about how to get the behavior from an animal that I can never touch; try using coercion on a wild squirrel in your yard to come to you. Almost anything that can be trained through coercion can be trained with positive reinforcement. I say almost anything because, I have never encountered something that couldn't be trained with positive reinforcement, but I am also not dead yet. Is it easy to use positive reinforcement?...No...there are many things that make it effective like timing, contigencies, reinforcement value, but these also are what make coercive methods effective and difficult to use as well. Benefits of using positive reinforcement is there is little or no chance of any bad side affects and the animal is working with you because it wants to. I have trained and witnessed training of very "aggressive" and dangerous animals (dogs, parrots, eagles, vultures, large cats, llamas, horses ,etc) using positive reinforcement and seen the described "aggresive" behaviors drastically reduce or almost be eliminated (again I am not dead yet) sometimes within one 10 minute training session. Reducing aggression with positive reinforcement can be done and is the most ethical method to do so. Aggression and Dominance are the same thing. They are both constructs or labels for a wide group of behaviors. They are not behaviors and mean something different to each person as seen on this thread. Constructs end our seach for the actual solution to a "problem" behavior, and give validation to our failure to work with an animal. There are just too many things about Millan that are not correct or not ethically sound to start commenting on him.

Andy March 16th, 2009 06:11:57 PM

I am a Pro Groomer and own my own Salon. I have been in the Pet Industry for over 20 years now, and I enjoy each day and my clients as well. I have nothing but Great things to say About Cesar Millan. I watch his shows, am active on several Group lists that promote his teachings, his Sessions with Cesar Millan website ,I have all 3 of his books,& they are Signed by him , his DVD's and I actually met him in October last year for a Fund Raiser, where I had a picture taken with him. He is a pure soul of goodness and I really don't undersatnd why so many have a problem with him. He is NOT a dog Trainer! He is a Dog Psychologist, works with the Behavior of a dog, not the Obedieance way your all commenting on, there is a huge difference and if your confused on them, please research these 2 words and then make your descision based on that Please. Cesar has helped me to run my business sucessfully. To keep peace among the dogs and cats that I care for each day, year after year after year. He has helped me to become a Pack Leader and in return I have been able to help my cleints to acheive Balance and Leadership with their dogs. Many clients have opted to get rid of thier family pet simply due to what they deem, as agression, I have asssited them and corrected the behavior and now their dog (s) have a forever home. There's nothing wrong with helping a dog in need. There is nothing wrong with helping a family in need. Ceasr is just not for dogs. He is all about Nature, Human and Animal. Were are all Blessed that he has arrived and he is staying.

KDog Spa March 16th, 2009 06:23:49 PM

Ever notice how a dogs behavior is ultimately just a reflection of it's owners personality?

 

Evet March 16th, 2009 06:24:22 PM

Evet: Not necessarily but I do find that pet peeps find in Cesar Millan exactly what they want to see. No  different that what happens in politics, art, science...

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 06:40:15 PM

We are not 'training' our dogs, we should be 'educating' our dogs.  They are trying hard to understand this weird human world they are tossed into.  They do not see us as 'pack leaders' - we aren't dogs, so we can't be!  If you read the research on wolves in the wild, the pack leader/dominance theory flies out the window.  It makes sense to humans because we are hierachial, so we think dogs and wolves must  be that way.

And yes, I have seen Cesar force confrontations.  If you know dog body language, you can see how stressed they are.  I remember one episode in which Cesar spent a long time CHASING a dog around it's yard!  Another where he climbed into the crate with the dog.  Dogs avoid confrontation, he follows them.  In many episodes, he talks about how this dog is 'calm and submissive' while it's body language says 'I've checked out of here until it's not so scary anymore'.  I would not trust that dog after Cesar leaves.

In the first season, Cesar did do some alpha rolls.  Those were cut out in reruns.  He no longer does that, I understand.  He has been reported to 'hang dogs' till they submit, but do you think the National Geographic Channel is going to show that? He has been sued for causing physical damage to dogs at his 'training center'.  Hopefully, he has learned from his mistakes.  Would be nice if he let people who love his show know that these are not methods that should be used.

Yes, Cesar has done some good things.  He has hopefully helped people realize that they shouldn't anthropomorphize their dogs, and that dogs need exercise.  You do need to be calm with your dog, and assertive, but not forceful.  I'm not talking about physical force, but forceful body language.

The nature of a TV show is that we don't see all the steps, it takes to 'train' a dog, and people think that they too can have a perfect dog in 20 minutes!  Stupid, but hey, some people are! Educating your dog is a lifelong process.  I am always learning new things from my dogs, and teaching them new things.

 

Sassy March 16th, 2009 07:00:57 PM

Thanks, Dr. Y, for chiming in. Your experience and your clips are helpful to those of us who are skeptical as well as to those of us who truly seek a better way. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 16th, 2009 07:57:49 PM

I don't quite get what episodes people are watching:  Cesar hangs dogs ALL THE TIME when they are out of control, typically with dogs he's mismanaged to the point where they get into a fight.  (Hanging means holding the dog's leash tightly and lifting up so its front feet are off the ground and it is choking). It's actually one of his primary techniques.  Hitting?  no, unless you call that "poking" he does a "hit" (and I think for some dogs it probably has the same effect).  Kicking?... sort of.  Last season, his "poke" wasn't working to break the dog's inappropriate focus, so he started doing a little back kick.  It's not a "dropkick through the goalposts" thing, but I don't know what you'd call it other than a "kick".

EmilyS March 16th, 2009 08:04:01 PM

To add to my long winded response, above, the American Veterinary Society  of Animal Behavior has a position statement on the use of punishement in behavior modification and on the use of dominance theory in behavior modification. They are at www.AVSABonline.org.

The AVSAB is not against all punishment, but is against the philosophy of "punish first" " be the boss," "dominate the animal," etc. This coercion based approach is very antagonistic. So the punishment statement serves to let readers know the possible adverse effects of force and coercion that should be recognized and addressed prior to any aversive is used.

As veterinarians our job is to first do-no harm. So if there are techniques that work as well and as are effects (which we prove to ourselves every day do exist--but of course, only if you actually do them the right way) as ones that can have serious repercussions—Imagine recommending a technique that could elicit aggression in 25% or more of recipients!

also for those who say the dog won't work when you don't have treats, that's because you taught your dogs that training only occurs in discrete sessions during the day. Training is really occuring every time you interact with your dog--which means if you are not aware of this you are probably rewarding all kinds of undesirable behaviors throughout the day--probably more than you are rewarding them. For instance if your dog wants attention, you can reward it for sitting for attention with treats BUT if you later reward it for rubbing against you or stepping with front paws on your lap , now you are rewarding it for being pushy. Then, if you take this same dog and give it a correction after you've just rewarded it 2 minutes ago for a form of the same behavior you now don't want--how fair is that. to train dogs to behave we have to reward for good behaviors BUT we also have to STOP Rewarding the bad behaviors. And the rewards for good behavior and removal of rewards for bad behavior have to come within 1 seconds for best results. We also have to make sure we don't train the dog tto only behave during specified times during the day when you're aware of what you are doing. We also have to reward good behaior a lot at first Treats work well because you can get a lot of rewards for good behavior in a short amount of time. But then it's good to move on to other rewards.

 

VIDEO: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpPRwbEonUg&feature=channel_page

Here's an example of my using a ball as a reward. If I hold the toy (which i often do), it's very much like using a food lure. Of course he pays attention, he knows you have the ball. in the example shown on this video--he knows he won't get to the toy unless he walks next to me via loose leash.  I can say with 100% certainty that things like pinch collar and choke chain  and electronic collar (wouldn't use that with him because I'd have to yank so hard to get a result that he'd go flying off the ground) won't work on him. They may temporarily suppress behavior but then in a higher arousal situation he just gets more aroused, frustrated, and aggressive and upping the levels just make things worse. Plus can lead to injury.

 

Sophia Yin, DVM www.AskDrYin.com March 16th, 2009 08:13:50 PM

There's several things incorrect in this blog, and while this is a free country for one to speak their opinion, it would be a so much nicer if the opinion were more fact based, then emotion based. I met Cesar Millan. I observed Cesar Millan. My comments are not from a "fan's" point of view, but from someone who is blessed (or cursed) with the disposal of dogs, by our society's thoughtless, unkind humanity. We are a people that criticizes others, through our self-serving opinions, without full or accurate knowledge of what we really are talking about. Cesar Millan should be praised for the lives he saves, instead of critiqued by indivdiuals who rarely spend money or time rehabilitating, volunteering, participating or funding animal shelters, rescues and city pounds. Cesar NEVER offers instant success, in fact, quite the opposite. He is very clear about the amount of time (it takes as long as it takes) to rehabilitate a dog. People do not change over night...nor does their behavior...and it's more often then not the human behavior, or lack thereof, that is creating the unwanted behavior with their dog. But once again, there is critique/criticism for a man's work, with little knowledge or understanding of what it is, he REALLY does!

Dog "Garbage" Collector March 16th, 2009 08:47:40 PM

Cesar Millan is one of many people in our country who shows and teaches those who are willing to learn a philosophy and and understanding of dog behavior. One post here mentions that many "emulate" Cesar which causes harm to the dog. They state he is dangerous to the "dog world". Cesar does not 'chain' dogs, participate in dog fighting, abuse, neglect, leave unattended, dispose of, or dump dogs. Cesar shows pet owners, who are willing to learn, and educate themselves, a "way" to keep their dog, to have wanted behavior, to have their dog part of their family (not on a chain), and so much more...to become a balanced human being. Cesar Millan is welcomed in the animal welfare industry by those of us who "clean up" your communities streets of all the animals everyone "rescues" but can't care for. Cesar Millan is welcomed by those people who work endless hours, spending thousands of dollars to find ONE home for a dog, while the "maker" of the dog continues to produce even more, taking no responsiblity for the dog once it leaves their home. Cesar Millan is welcomed by those people who believe in a kind society, and by those who value "life" more than "things"...welcomed by those who are open to making the world a better place. Cesar Millan is so much more then dog behavior...he's a philosophy that we should live by, learn from, and be thankful for. Despite living in a 'free' country, Cesar continues to help the very society, who shames him, all the while doing it with a smile, hope and with results! I don't work with dogs exactly like Cesar does, but I'm proud to "emulate" Cesar Millan's philosophy because I've become a better human being because of it!

L.B. March 16th, 2009 09:02:11 PM

Sorry, but there's a giant leap in theory from dealing with a dog who is determined to use its teeth to perceived stimulus and a dog who suffers from possession issues or handling sensitivity.

I'm in complete agreement that possessive aggressive dogs do not respond to punishment - but who here saw the episode with the blind food aggressive lab?  Or for that matter, any of the food aggressive dogs Cesar has dealt with?

I don't agree with his use of punishment for dealing with obvious cases of OCD either - but again, this is a completely different situation than a dog who is destined for the long sleep because of uncontrollable, violent or obsessive behaviour.

Unlike Dr. Yin's experience, I don't use punishment because it's the only tool in my belt - nor do I use it to feel powerful.  I use it to enhance the level of communication - I think of purely negative or purely positive training like having a conversation with a dog but only having one or the other half of a vocabulary.  Certainly, there are dual-purpose trainers out there who are vocabulary-challenged (or worse) but anyone who can/will strictly endorse one method or the other hasn't worked with (or refuses to work with/fails with/gets poor results with) dogs on the far ends of the spectrum (soft and hard).

If you want to really take a look at a dangerous TV training personality, watch a few episodes of "At the End of My Leash" with Brad Pattison.  Like the one where he advocates removing the baby gates in a home and instead tethering two dogs four feet apart on six food leads to coat hooks four feet up on the wall.  Can you say asphyxiation?  Or loss of circulation?  Or redirected frustration aggression?

Or how about his distaste towards toys and treats?  Or the episode where he allows his own dog to be attacked by provoking a violent outburst from a dog he's working with?

Have any of you read Smarter Than You Think by Paul Loeb?  Make sure to talk in full sentences!  Throw a magazine at your dog!  Don't allow it to come into contact with ANY people until it's FULLY trained!  Feed it whatever you eat (ok, I feed homecooked, but there's actually a line in the book where he advocates giving the dog a piece of apple pie...).

As much as I dislike Cesar for a few of the cases I've seen him deal with where I feel he handled the situation with FAR more physicality than was necessary (and FAR, FAR more than should be shown on television - this is not a medical show or "dirty jobs" - people are dealing with these EXACT problems every day and are GOING to attempt these solutions) there are more dangerous folks out there - TRAINERS who are screwing dogs up in the first place.

Instead of arguing about purely positive or purely coercive methodology and who's doing what wrong or right, perhaps we should be banding together to present a united front against stupidity, lack of common sense, and trainers who simply don't know what they're doing - period.

Kim March 16th, 2009 09:16:51 PM

Wow, look at all the comments!  I couldn't even read them all.  I did, however, enjoy a great deal Roxanne & Megan's posts.  (I posted the interview with Dr. Grandin on my facebook page.)  The most powerful post here, IMO, is Dr. Yin's.  (I have a Manners Minder at home & love it, Dr. Yin!  The whippets love it more, though!)

Let's be really simple about this.  How would you like to learn:  by operant conditioning, play-training, and games, or by Cesar's Way?  Thanks, I'll take the former, every time.  And I will of course follow that will Dr. Grandin's caveat that one method will not work with every dog, just as one kind of teaching works for every child.  Fortunately, we don't have to resort to man-handling children or dogs, dolphins or horses.  Karen Pryor and Patricia Gail Burnham really changed the way I look at dog training -- it is fun! not a drag.

Julie in OH March 16th, 2009 09:20:29 PM

First of all, why did the email feed of this column contain a more detailed description of the article in the Journal of Applied Animal Behavior than appears on this website?

I read the study Dr. Khuly describes. While it lists various aversive and non-aversive methods and the percent that elicited aggressive responses, it did not not followup and determine which methods were more effective. A high percent of the owners who used aversive techniques reported being satisfied with them (though they didn't determine if they worked or not). In the discussion, the authors tried hard to explain away results that didn't agree with what what they had obviously expected. I can't say I was impressed with the paper.

I have mixed feelings about Cesar. I've heard him say some really cringeworthy things. But I have watched quite a few episodes and I'm impressed with how much he adapts his approach to the needs of different dogs. He is far from a one size fits all approach. I am also impressed with the followups he gives (especially in the book covering the first 3 seasons). Not every case turns out well, and he doesn't cover it up, nor does he blame the owners for not following through.

Yes, the dogs often show stress - their whole world is being turned upside down and he often forces them to confron their fears. Yes, theya re going to show stress. But I think the important thing is their behavior the next day, the next week, and even later. Most episodes don't show that - except when he takes a dog to his center for rehab, and you can usually see a much more relaxed dog after that.

I think this discussion would be better if we substituted the word leadership for dominance. Leadership is what he is talking about.

One note - someone mentioned he often uses pinch and choke collars. In one of his books he says he usually uses whatever collar the owner has. The collar his wife designed is a choke collar that stays high on the neck.

My impression is that many of the people who are the most vehement about criticizing him have only seen a few episodes, often from the first season, which covered two cases in a half hour show instead of three cases in an hour show.

I also have a story I can tell. My first dog was a very dominant Malamute. It was a constant struggle to live with him. He was very dog aggressive. He bit several people, though he never threatened me. We were kicked out of obedience classes. While he knew the exercises, he did them sullenly. We went to a well-known veterinary behaviorist and I followed her advice carefully with no real changes. Finally in desperation I started training him with a Schutzhund club - just the obedience classes, not the protection work. They were people who appreciated powerful dogs with powerful characters and helped me channel it productively. I had used treats previously but no food was involved in his retraining. He got sincere praise for a job well done, and forceful corrections given with confidence and conviction (I think it was the confidence that really mattered). The results were remarkable. He went from being sullen to loving obedience. I could call him from a full-out charge half a football field away and he would turn on a dime and return to me as fast as he had been running away, skidding into a sit and grinning. He heeled precisely and proudly with his head and tail up. I could take him to dog parks and he was a perfect gentleman. Since then, I have seen a few other dogs respond in the same way. It isn't the right approach for every dog, of course. These dogs were all very confident dogs. They were dying for a leader they could follow, and delighted when their owners stepped up to the plate.

 

Linda H March 16th, 2009 09:27:31 PM

What kind of an idiot would bite a dog??? The twit deserveed to have her face chewed off if she is that stupid. Unfortunately, it was the dog who paid the price. I have used Cesar Milan methods in dealing with dogs that were not my own. It's not a matter of bullying them, it's a matter of establishing yourself as their leader. And a dog does not challenge it's leader. I have a friend whose dog was starting to get snappy. She took her to a "dog trainer", and was eventually told to have her dog put down. I told her about Cesar Milan, gave her a book and video, and after a few minutes of work, her dog began to behave hisself. Every once in a while she had to repeat the lesson, but after two years, the dog is still alive and hasn't bitten anyone. Maybe your dumb relative should have gone to the Dog Whisperer!

Sheila T March 16th, 2009 11:13:37 PM

At one point I used to think Cesar was alright but lately I have started to dislike him. First of all, I do believe in positive-only training. Once you have an aggressive dog no amount of dominance will take it out of them, but conditioning, training and a watchful and consistant owner can manage a situation quite well. Aggression, whether with people or other dogs, is not something you train out of a dog, rather in the face of a dangerous situation both the handler and the dog need to know how to switch the focus.

But back to Cesar - what changed my mind about him was watching his episodes on mute. There was a particular one that i had seen several times and knew what he was generally saying in it. And one time i turned on that same episode on mute. There is a HUGE difference in how the episode is interpreted without his words hypnotizing you. Basically he was massaging an aggressive small dog and claiming "look how much the dog is enjoying the massage, now he's gonna associate x with feeling nice" when the dog was really pissed off but overpowered by the strength he put into the massage. Its easy to pay attention to him rather than the dog because he speaks calmly and with certainty. But when the sound is off you focus on the miserable dog and on how much strength hes using to hold the dog down flat. I don't recall if he did a follow-up with that dog but i have the feeling that it didnt resolve well in the long run.

So anyway I personally don't care for hiw methods anymore. Exercise, discipline, love - that's all fine. But the choking, the staring, the pushing, the fake-biting, I don't like it. They're momentary fixes.

I did read a magnificent behavior book though that I would recommend to anyone who owns a dog, and that is The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. Easy to read and understand and just incredibly interesting stuff.

Tatyana March 16th, 2009 11:35:26 PM

I really didn't see any difference in the "hanging" of the cesar dog, where he's accused of cutting of the dog's air and the dogs who pull so hard on their leash that their front feet are off the ground, and they're choking themselves ...

 

 

Laurie March 17th, 2009 01:21:56 AM

Just want to share that my dog Schroeder and I were one of the chosen to get Cesar's help. Cesar uses his energy -- calm assertive corrections. He communicates to the dogs by his understanding of them using dog psychology. My dog responded immediately. Schroeder simply obeyed and knew Cesar was in charge. At the end of each show the dog owners have nothing but praise for Cesar. Dogs listen to Cesar because of his ability to communicate with them by his energy and dog-communication skills. It's dog psychology "Cesar's Way." Trust me when I say, "Cesar is the real thing." He is a blessing to all dogs/owners. I and other dog lovers would never subject our dogs to anything bad. Lucy

Lucy March 17th, 2009 03:16:42 AM

I have watched Cesar's show and the impression I get is that he is a professional brought in to solve very difficult  behaviour problems.  The tools he leaves with the owner are excercise and disciple.  He never instructs the owners to solve the dogs extreme behaviour problem themselves.  He does use dominance but I don't think he ever uses aggression towards the dogs.  Maybe I'm naive but I would heed their warnings to "not try this at home".

Annette March 17th, 2009 04:34:36 AM

Sheila T: Remember that the 'twit' and 'idiot' you refer to is a 'close relative' of mine. Be cool, OK? Oh, and btw, this person is anything but. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 05:50:07 AM

Linda H: OMG it's been sliced! It's a bug and I'll fix it. Sorry!

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 05:52:20 AM

Fixed now. So sorry to all of you who may have read half a post (happened about 6 pm yesterday). Oops!

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 05:55:09 AM

I've never seen Milan bite a dog.   Since it's your friend who bit the dog, maybe you should do a post on what a bad trainer your friend is. 

Dan Kale March 17th, 2009 10:17:24 AM

For me one of the issues with dominance or forced based training is that there is a great deal of difference between what someone like Cesar, an experienced dog trainer,or a veterinary behaviorist can get a dog to do simply because they have all handled many more dogs. Owners on the other hand have not handled very many dogs. They are usually extremely poor at reading canine body signaling, don't understand that aggression is the dog asking that the encounter stop rather than a challenge. Every time a dog says "I don't want to do that" is not a challenge, it can simply be that the dog does not understand what is being asked of them. That is my problem with the techniques used by dominance based trainers. They often do not leave room for the interpretation that the dog does not understand and the instructions are not clear. It really doesn't matter if the trainer, owner or any other human thinks their instructions are clear if the dog does not understand them. And just like talking to someone who does not speak your language, yelling and saying it louder, harder and meaner doesn't translate to anything but intimidation if you don't understand the words. Quite simply it is usually easier to teach what you want than punish what you don't want. I do believe that people interacting with dogs should be calm and very clear about what they want and expect, that is very useful not only in human-canine interactions but in human to human interactions as well. That is leadership-not dominance. But they also must keep in mind that the dog looks at the world as a dog and we look at the world as humans and those two perspectives may differ. You might find the following article very intresting if you believe in dominance based training based on all the wolf jargon. "Whatever happend to the term Alpha Wolf" by L. David Mech in International Wolf, winter 2008. It can be found at www.wolf.org

Dr. Debra Horwitz March 17th, 2009 10:52:49 AM

Dan: Now, now, Dan. Easy does it. As I said, she is not a trainer nor a pet professional. What she did went against all the advice she had been given. Given that is was not a hard bite (she did not want to hurt her dog, just correct him) how different is it, really, from striking a dog with a rolled up newspaper? Just because humans don't typically correct with their teeth doesn't mean that the rest of the world doesn't get away with far more abusive behavior on a regular basis in the name of professional training. IMO, including Cesar Millan and a great many professional trainers I've seen at work. 

Frightening a dog into submission is far more egregious in terms of damage to the dog than stupidly losing your cool and nipping at your dog's ear. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 12:01:28 PM

I've realized, Dr Khuly, that I get a lot more good behavior based training tips every time 'Cesar's Way' is brought up. I've been there and done that with agressive type techniques(Barbara Wodehouse anyone?)  I guess my personality is just too floppy.

Now off to Dr Yin's site...more learning for me!

redh March 17th, 2009 12:24:19 PM

Dr. K: You may tell Dan that Easy does it, but he does have a point. You include in this entry a stupid mistake made by your relative that has no direct correlation to Cesar or his methods. If you wish to argue his methods then go ahead, but don't include every moronic idea people have. Cesar has not to my knowledge, ever suggested the type of behavior you mention. Hitting with a newspaper or biting, come on. Please deal in facts and not slander because your friends have a dislike for the guy.

Also how does he "frighten" a dog into submission? I want real proof. Show me video of an actual frightened dog.

"Frightening a dog into submission is far more egregious in terms of damage to the dog than stupidly losing your cool and nipping at your dog's ear. " I beg to differ, in your own example the dog was put to sleep.  What could be worse than that? Frankly, that upsets me greatly, your relative makes a mistake and the dog pays the price. If she was fed up with the dog or unable to care for it she should have given it up instead of putting it down.

With each passing day I realize just how right Einstein was when he said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

William March 17th, 2009 01:09:37 PM

Dr Yin wrote, "On  last note: instructing with vague instructions such as be confident, is not instruction. That's like saying, "to perform well at tennis, you just swing with confidence."

I suspect this was in response to my saying confidence was important in turning my Malamute around. I did not mean it as an instruction. I didn't go into everything involved in his training. But I do feel that my learning to project confidence was an important element in his, and my, rehabilitation. In Cesar Millan terms, I projected the energy of a calm leader.

I should also say he is the only dog I have personally trained who would have responded well to that approach, though as I said, I have seen others. Like many people here, my approach to most dogs is to teach anything new with positive methods - corrections are only introduced when I'm sure the dog undersatnds what is being asked. I use clicker training a lot. But I am often reminded that every dog is different. Currently I have a girl who didn't respond to clicker training, food rewards, or toys at all at first. When I switched over to using Koehler's methods (yes, the much maligned Koehler) she started to sparkle. What I realized is that having to figure out what is expected of her, as in clicker training, was very stressful to her, even without any aversives. She was much happier being shown what was expected. Now that her confidence has increased, she is starting to respond to the clicker.

Linda H March 17th, 2009 01:40:10 PM

OK I use Cesar's general methods on my guys. It works. Cesar has never advocated violence. He makes a point to not make eye contact and backs into crates..I could go on and on. I also grew up with parents who used Cesar's methods on us kids- back then it was called RESPECT and I gotta tell ya- I respected my parents. My kids were brought up the same. It's all about respect. Not violence and not abuse. Quiet, earned respect.

agadoresmama March 17th, 2009 02:12:48 PM

agadoresmama: You didn't get the memo? Respect is out, it was deemed too confrontational by society. Now it's let your kids run lose and when they commit a crime, don't you dare let them take responsibility... blame music, TV, news, heck blame society.

I do wonder how many will <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-alt:"Calisto MT"; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-alt:"Arial Rounded MT Bold"; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} span.EmailStyle15 {mso-style-type:personal; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-unhide:no; mso-ansi-font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> interpret your "respect" as child abuse. The concept we were raised with of respect and taking responsibility for our own actions is nonexistent with most people today, in fact some people would think its downright barbaric. Kudos on raising your children with those principles, if only more parents would.

As for your comments on Cesar, they've been said before and the people who want to will still associate him with violence. They claim violence and yet provide no proof. Instead they submit Johnny Appleseed saw the show and thought it'd be ok to smack his dog. Well, Johnny Appleseed lacks common sense then, that's not Cesars fault.

William March 17th, 2009 02:29:47 PM

This is a very interesting discussion. I am impressed at the number of enthusiastic responses to the findings of our study. Just to give a bit of background, there have been a few studies comparing punishment-based training to positive reinforcement based training and found that dogs trained with positive reinforcement alone had higher obedience rankings compared to dogs trained with punishment and also had fewer future behavior problems. (Hiby et al 2004, Blackwell et al 2007) These studies had encouraging findings for positive-reinforcement training advocates, but neither addressed owner safety when using the various methods. The purpose of our study was to assess owner safety when implementing various training methods. The specific methods we examined in our study were based on owner reports over years of veterinary behavior appointments. Historically owners had attempted the techniques listed as part of a dominance-based treatment method. Dominance training methods suggest that the root of behavior problems/aggression in dogs is based in an owner's lack of dominance or "alpha" status form the perception of the dog. Veterinary behaviorists recognize that the primary motivation behind most dog aggression is fear and is unrelated to owner social status. This view is substantiated by several dog bite studies and current veterinary texts (Guy et al 2001a,2001b, Veterinary Clinics of North America Sept. 2008 etc.) Many owners who seek the help of dominance-based advocates are instructed to use physically forceful or visually intimidating methods to assert their "dominance" over their dog. This includes staring down the dog and growling in many cases. These methods are fear eliciting and, hence, it makes sense that dogs would be aggressive in response. Our study was inspired by the fact that time after time owners were reporting aggressive responses from their dogs when they attempted confrontational, often dominance-based training methods. The study attempted to quantify these aggressive responses - both for confrontational and reward-based methods. Much of the data is presented above. As veterinarians we abide by the rule "above all else do no harm". Our results suggest owners may be putting themselves in harm's way and putting their dogs at risk of relinquishment or euthanasia (as was the unfortunate case of Dr. K's relative) by attempting certain confrontational methods. The take home message is reward-based and neutral training methods pose little risk to owner safety, whereas confrontational methods (often found in dominance-based training theory), whether physically aversive or visually intimidating, can lead to owner directed aggression in many cases. Thank you all for the interest in the study.

Dr. Meghan Herron March 17th, 2009 03:09:24 PM

William: The dog was euthanized because his illness made him increasingly unstable. That bite wasn't the last straw, though. A few months later, he lunged and bit her hand while she was preparing his meal. Unprovoked. The poor dog just was not right. 

And I'm sorry if you can't see how the two pieces of this post fit together. I've explained it (twice, in comments above) and you don't get it so I'll have to leave it at that.

As for examples of fearful dogs and Cesar, go check out Dr. Yin's YouTube posts. I haven't been there yet but I'm told that a video-based exposition is there. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 04:17:58 PM

Dr. Herron: Thanks for playing on Dolttler! And do you have a link to your paper??

Dr. Patty Khuly March 17th, 2009 04:20:01 PM

The link to the article on Science Direct is: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T48-4VFJS1D-2&_user=489256&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000022721&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=489256&md5=a0f33d47e0bef06545a9ad396bbc0295 Readers will most likely need to have a subscription to Science Direct or AABS or log in at a library or university in order to access it.

Dr. Meghan Herron March 17th, 2009 04:56:34 PM

Keep it up! Cesar enthusiasts make lots of excuses for his techniques, and believe that non-followers don't misunderstand him. The fact is that dogs are remarkable and many can learn despite what we do to them, not because of what we do. His work with fearful dogs is especially disturbing to watch. I created the www.fearfuldogs.com website to help owners of these dogs learn about the best ways to work with their dogs.

Debbie Jacobs March 17th, 2009 06:34:57 PM

Keep it up! Cesar enthusiasts make lots of excuses for his techniques, and believe that non-followers misunderstand him. The fact is that dogs are remarkable and many can learn despite what we do to them, not because of what we do. His work with fearful dogs is especially disturbing to watch. I created the www.fearfuldogs.com website to help owners of these dogs learn about the best ways to work with their dogs.

Debbie Jacobs March 17th, 2009 06:37:25 PM

@Linda: Here, here.  Very well said. 

Dr. Herron: Why must everything be one or the other?

It's been my personal experience that the fear responses I'm seeing today are NOT the result of "confrontational" training techniques, but rather the lack of any leadership whatsoever, and the constant coddling of the dog in general "Oh, don't worry baby, mommy won't let that scary wind hurt you!"

The result is a terrified, knock kneed dog who is afraid of its own shadow and has ZERO self confidence.  I'm in full agreement that an unexperienced owner then turning around and growling at the dog is most likely to result at best in a further confused animal, at worst in a bloody mess - but in the hands of an experienced trainer, the use of BOTH positives and aversives can be the most effective way to CLEARLY illustrate to the dog that from this point forward this is the behaviour that is expected and acceptable, and this is the behaviour that is not.

What bothers me about this study is that hitting, growling, staring and alpha rolls are placed in category A, and clickers, treats and praise are put in category B. 

The result is then spoken to all who will listen: Category A gets you bitten, Category B furthers your training!

Ah, but the situation is not so black and white, is it?  I will take note when such a study is performed wherein Category C is introduced - consisting of properly timed leash corrections, vocal corrections, long lead work, shake cans, and the hundreds of other aversives that are based on humane and knowledgeable training methods and not emotional/growling/dominating owners.

And yes, it IS possible to even use Category D (A+C!) which is really golden when properly applied.

Interesting that redh would invoke the name of Barbara Woodhouse - I must ask - have you ever had the pleasure of actually watching her work??  Have you ever truly investigated her theories?  Take a look at Brian Kilcommons/Sarah Wilson (today's Barbara Woodhouse - although they would most likely be humbled by the comparison, as they hold her to the same high regard as I do).  Barbara believed in her heart of heart that with the exception of an extremely small minority (we're talking 0.0001% of the canine population such as the one in the opening example) there were NO BAD DOGS - only ignorant, unskilled owners.  She had little patience for people, and infinite patience and understanding for dogs.

Watching her work is much like watching Monty Roberts.

And please - would everyone stop comparing the training of dogs to that of chickens and dophins and such?  The behavioural patterns, social patterns and teaching methods among family members of these animals differs GREATLY to that of canine species.  Puppies are disciplined physically by their parents and all other older dogs they encounter.  To suggest that physical discipline is somehow mentally damaging is to suggest that you know better than that puppy's mother.  Obviously we can't mimic dog behaviour exactly, nor should we try, but to compare the learning abilities of chickens to that of dogs - well, no one would suggest clicker training their children and raising them without punishment, would you?

I mean, really - where have all these genteel child rearing methods gotten us?  Ever watched SuperNanny?  She is direct, firm, disciplinary, and physical when necessary without being violent, yelling or getting angry.  She is also full of rewards, praise and affection.  I don't see anyone suggesting that she should arm herself with a clicker and a box of animal crackers...

Kim March 17th, 2009 06:40:08 PM

And please - would everyone stop comparing the training of dogs to that of chickens and dophins and such?  The behavioural patterns, social patterns and teaching methods among family members of these animals differs GREATLY to that of canine species.

Since that was directed at me...  =)  Teaching is certainly be a universal thing, no matter if we're talking about a cat or a dolphin.  Or a human.  I like being positively reinforced.  Just about any sentient being does.  I don't care for punishment (positive or negative punishment); just about every other sentient being is the same.  The neural processes and social behaviors are undoubtably different, I agree wholeheartedly.  But teaching and learning through reinforcement, that's pretty darn near universal, about the closest to a universal "language" we have.  If I can make myself clear and understood to any other critter, that's a pretty powerful thing, and I don't think it can be discounted.

Julie in OH March 17th, 2009 07:51:53 PM

To suggest that physical discipline is somehow mentally damaging is to suggest that you know better than that puppy's mother.  Obviously we can't mimic dog behaviour exactly, nor should we try, but to compare the learning abilities of chickens to that of dogs - well, no one would suggest clicker training their children and raising them without punishment, would you?

Oops, I should've copied more of your paragraph.  No, I wouldn't raise any critter without having all possible tools in my bag, as Dr. Yin has put it.  Punishment has its place.  But those instances are pretty few and far between, in my experience.  The sparing use of physical discipline you see a bitch administer to her pups is not mentally damaging. I'll never argue that, but I don't think that is what commenters here are suggesting.  Me, I am pretty strict with my dogs' behavior -- I don't think anyone would call me a wishy-washy feel-good pushover.  What I am is delighted and thrilled to see my dogs really enjoy learning, even actively seek it out.  That's one of the best feelings I've had in my life.

Regarding chickens v. dogs, here I can speak with a wee bit of experience.  Chickens are far, far less intelligent than dogs IMO.  But that's the thing about training -- intellectual capacity has little to nothing to do with it.  Chickens are just as trainable as a dog or a human.  They all have the capacity to learn.  They'll never strike anyone agog with their intellect -- it just ain't there -- but they can indeed learn "how to behave", given enough time & effort.  As for me, it hasn't been worth the time & effort to train them, =) although I do recognize that they could teach me a lot about teaching.  That's why clicker training classes with chickens exist.  It'll take a special, different chicken (smile at Dr. K) to induce me to pick up my clicker on a regular basis with the chooks.

Julie in OH March 17th, 2009 08:04:34 PM

I'm not saying that learning clicker theory with an animal like a chicken is a poor idea - I think it's brilliant, in fact, and kudos to those who offer those classes to trainers who THINK they know how to use a clicker.  It's an eye opener, for sure!  :O)

I need to point out your use of vocabulary here as well, and that is what you consider "punishment."  For my rott mix, punishment consists 99% of the time of a stern eye, or at most a low tone.  Capital offences require only a mild leash correction.  And I mean MILD.

My retriever, on the other hand, was oblivious to a look or a low tone.  To punish him verbally, I had to make a sound as if I had just discovered my house in a neat little demolished pile buried in the back yard.  A sharp intake of air that meant "How COULD you!"  Physical corrections consisted of FIRM leash corrections.  Incidentally, he adored clicker training, and was a performance dog.  His behaviour was such that he never required anything harder than a leash correction.

The point is that these "punishments" (and of COURSE you don't like to be punished... that's why it works - it's also why kids are motivated to get to class on time, to behave in school, why most people don't drive 100mph everywhere they go, etc, etc, etc - it doesn't work all the time for every individual, and different people require different levels of punishment before they "get it") are part and parcel to even the most positive training methods if you want a reliable dog.

And yes, this argument DOES apply to the argument at hand.  The argument posed was one based on this recent study posing one form of training against another (or at least it claimed to be).  What it actually was was a comparison of reassuring, non confrontational behaviours to directly aggression provoking, bat-crap crazy methods that have NO business in the toolbox of the average pet owner.

As I said before, I have serious issues with the fact that Cesar broadcasts these methods on the boob tube as it were.  However, with the exception of a few cases (I hated his treatment of the light chasing dog for example and thought that this could have been accomplished without such physical intervention) I can't condemn his efforts.  The fact remains that he is dealing with dogs most trainers and behaviourists would euthanize.  That many wouldn't even touch.  And he understands that these people don't have years to deal with these issues - that there are dangers involved with every day that goes by with the dog still showing these negative behaviours - dangers to others, and dangers to the dog itself.

He takes all of this into consideration and applies only as much force as is necessary.  Does he make mistakes?  Certainly.  He's usually quick to admit it, in fact.  A great example is the episode with the bulldog who was obsessed with the garden hose.  He had the opportunity to end on a high note, and he chose to push the dog just that little bit further - and got himself bitten for his efforts.  He corrected the dog for the bite (one must) but he didn't punish the dog angrily like the people in the study may have responded.  He admitted that the dog bit him because HE forced it to, and he moved on.

I'm not saying that he's the answer - but he has been for those he has helped.  I'm not saying people should emulate him - in fact, they should not.  But what I take great offence to is the use of Cesar Millan as a general jumping point for the purely positive crowd to brow beat anyone who uses anything firmer than a clicker and a treat bag and label them animal abusers or barbarians - or worse!  If one trainer wants to click and treat exclusively (although I have yet to meet a truly "PP" trainer - those who claim to be obviously have no concept of the scientific definition of an aversive) all the power to them.  I think you're wrong, but good luck!  And if another trainer wants to use strictly aversive methods, provided that those methods are not abusive, I again think that they're incorrect, but wish them luck!

I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between, and it's studies like this one that serve to further polarize the training community into an us vs. them mentality - and no, I'm not suggesting that that was the intent of the study - I believe it was more of a "don't do THIS, stupid!" point of view... but I still feel strongly that it was extremely one sided and made no effort to show any kind of moderation.

Oh, and the chicken comment was NOT directed at you.  ;O)  It's an argument I come up against often, that's all - you can train a chicken like this, why not a dog!  Except that the chicken doesn't suffer from near the amount of conflicting motivation, and failure to respond by the chicken is unlikely to put the chicken's life in danger.  Oops - and the chicken is unlikely to be trying to EAT you.  lol

Kim March 17th, 2009 09:00:20 PM

It's been my personal experience that the fear responses I'm seeing today are NOT the result of "confrontational" training techniques, but rather the lack of any leadership whatsoever, and the constant coddling of the dog in general "Oh, don't worry baby, mommy won't let that scary wind hurt you!"

The result is a terrified, knock kneed dog who is afraid of its own shadow and has ZERO self confidence.  I'm in full agreement that an unexperienced owner then turning around and growling at the dog is most likely to result at best in a further confused animal, at worst in a bloody mess - but in the hands of an experienced trainer, the use of BOTH positives and aversives can be the most effective way to CLEARLY illustrate to the dog that from this point forward this is the behaviour that is expected and acceptable, and this is the behaviour that is not.

"Positive" does not equal "permissive."

Two years ago, I received a year-old dog who had had a great first three months, but then went to a home where she was socially isolated from other dogs, and apparently didn't get a lot of interaction and attention from humans, either, for most of the nine months she was there. When I got her, she was afraid of nearly everything (except cats, whom she appeared to expect to be her best friends--perhaps a hint about who had time for her in her former home.) On top of that, she was extremely fear-aggressive towards other dogs.

I've been told many times that positive-reinforcement training can't do anything to help a dog like that, and that correction-based dominance-style traning is the only thing that can stop the behaviors and give the dog confidence in their human master. To which I can only say, "Oh, really? Does that mean I have to give back her Canine Good Citizen certificate? Cancel her birthday party with three other dogs? Stop visits to my sister and her Lab, and stop attending breed meet-ups?"

Clicker, treats, praise, and patience. Confidence in my dog's ability to learn how to cope with daily life, how to play with toys, and how to play with other dogs.

Admittedly, we are still working on how to greet other dogs for the first time without getting over-excited, and bigger dogs do still make her nervous. But she's made enormous progress, and is ridsing to the occasion more ad more often, with increasing reliability.

And all without a single alpha roll, dominance down, poke or "bite" from my hand How is this possible?!

Lis March 17th, 2009 10:16:22 PM

I cannot read all this drivel; I'm sorry a close relative was bitten to the point he/she needed plastic surgery. However, WHAT AN IDIOT: a dog's growl is a WARNING. The dog did NOT deserve to be killed. Your relative on the other hand, I seriously question their right not only to own pets in future but "live" as well. THAT IDIOT IS WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR AN INNOCENT DOG'S DEATH. Bite me and damned straight I'm gonna bite back!! I hope they're permanently barred legally not only from owning pets in future but from bearing children; what a moron. I'd hate to see how they might discipline children who don't "GET IT" the way they think they should.

Lee March 17th, 2009 11:22:28 PM

The thing that really irritates me about Cesar Milan is he has 1 message over and over again. People see these dogs getting "cured" in 5 minutes of television and suddenly he must know everything. I heard of one dog in particular that had aggression issues and went on to really nail a neighbor a few months later. People need to remember that it is a television show...there are edited portions...and stories that aren't really the entire story. In all honesty I watch the show with baited breath sometimes watching the body language of these dogs. I am surprised he isn't bitten more than he is. Some of his concepts can work if done correctly...but overall I think he is asking for it. Anyone see the episode with the Pit that latched onto another dog and wouldn't. let. go. when its owners came back to get it? Whatever he wanted to claim the problem was... should that have ever been allowed to happen in the first place? I don't think so.. I think that overall many people are clueless about how easily you can make sure they know you're in charge without the stupid psst and pokes that cesar promotes so much. My dogs know by now that their dinner bowls don't touch the ground until their butts do...and they don't dig in until released. Is that a dominant behavior on my part? Sure is. Am I staring down my dogs or forcing them down? Nope...I don't need to. I MUCH prefer the other show that is on now...with the British woman. Can't remember the name now!

Amanda March 18th, 2009 12:06:57 AM

Sorry Dr K. your lead-in story into the Cesar subject kinda backfired on you. I know what you were trying to do. Since we are on behavior, I will add a personal note. I adopted a 1yr old lab cross from our shelter 8 yrs ago. Sweet dog with me and familiar people, but major anxiety issues leading to progressive inter-dog aggression, despite gentle behavior modification it got worse. Read as many articles and attended as many lectures on the subject I could. (her profile fit all the cases with eutuhanasia was the likely outcome) Tried fluoxitine, clomiprimine, alprazolam. Poor dog was sweet and gentle to people she knew (fearful of strangers). Last Saturday I watched her go postal on a gentle 18 year old dog visiting me with no more provocation than just walking near her, next thing I knew she was ripping his throat out. I knew what I had to do. Today took her to the beach to run and chase seagulls for a while and euthanised her at home. Hardest one I have ever performned. She worshipped me, brought me my newspaper every morning, always wanted to please.

Hobson March 18th, 2009 12:18:31 AM

This discussion is interesting for the fact that it has presented most views that are usually presented on this subject.  The supporting "evidence", ranging from posters' personal experiences and opinions, to published data, is familiar from other discussions as well.  Before adding some comments on previous posts, I would like to mention that in my years working as support staff for veterinary behaviorists, I've taken a dismaying number of phone calls from people who sought help with their dogs, but had no idea how to separate informed and ethical professionals from sincere incompetents, snake oil salesmen, and animal abusers.  The problem is certainly compounded by the fact that there is no national certification for dog training professionals, and no body of basic information and skills that all must demonstrate that they have mastered.  Many people sincerely attempt to research dog breeds, dog training, and behavior management, usually on the web, but with no knowledge of the field and the fact that a lot of misinformation is repeated on one site after another like a game of "telephone", they often end up with the trainer who promotes him/herself most aggressively.  The phone calls that I've taken over the years with appalling stories of the results of subjecting dogs, in the name of training, to physical punishment and psychological duress are always disturbing.  Often, the dog owners were not seeking anything but professional help with basic obedience and manners training; there was no behavior problem at all before damage was done by the training.  For as many calls as I've received describing fearful or aggressive behavior elicited by such training, I have not received one complaining of the same results attributable to true positive reinforcement based training.  Whether or not the owner found this training completely satisfactory, which is dependent on many variables, including the skill of the trainer and the application of the owner, I've never had someone complain that their dog's behavior had changed from outgoing and benign to aggressive and dangerous as a result of the training techniques.

Others have mentioned the obligation of veterinary professionals to promote the well-being and humane treatment of animals: "do no harm".  Veterinary professionals and trainers must realize, and take responsibility for, the fact that techniques that they authorize are likely to be the beginning, not the end, of what many clients will do to their dogs, on the basis of that authorization.  Owners who are told they can tighten up on a choke chain or prong collar may hang their dogs; in fact, against all reason, trainers will tell them that the dog can't be hurt that way because it has such a muscular neck.  Owners who are taught to train with electric shock devices may injure and torture their dogs with them.  Owners who are told to slap or bite their dogs, and this advice is not infrequent, may injure them.  Any and all of these techniques may result in a desperate animal injuring an owner or another person, and in my experience, this is not an uncommon result.  Professionals in this field must remember that we have no knowledge or control of the fact that our clients may be substance abusers, have anger management problems, be mentally unstable or under severe stress, so that abuse of dogs with aversive training techniques we promote is a risk we cannot calculate.

It's remarkable how dependent trainers can become on one punishment device or another.  Mr. Millan must get that thin choke chain around the dog's neck where it will be most effective in occluding the dog's airway.  The hagiographic report the New Yorker ran about him several years ago had paragraphs of agonizing detail about what he did to a little jindo in an effort to get that chain on the dog.  I suspect he knows this, but perhaps he doesn't: Mr. Millan would be at a distinct disadvantage without his ability to make dogs hypoxic.  There is less on-screen evidence of this these days, but in his first season, as mentioned above, he choked a dog until she was unable to rise and was in respiratory distress.  This state was referred to as getting rid of the bad energy (sighing, mentioned above), though the dog had clinical signs of hypoxia, including dusky oral mucosa.  If the dog is sufficiently strangled, pulmonary edema is a real risk in such a case.  The choke chain is an old device, and a necessity to so many advocates of punishment; a newer version is the prong collar.  I have never seen Mr. Kilcommons, who claims that we must be open to using all kinds of methods (well, except food treats), train a dog without one.  So important is this device to him that he sells a proprietary version, concealed inside an attractive nylon collar, presumably to avoid offending or scandalizing sensitive members of the community.  There are national franchises built on the use of shock collars, with schools to train their enthusiasts and connections to their graduates' businesses, often identified by phrases such as "no limitations".  That's a real chiller, considering the implications of that phrase in association with the use of a shock device.  I have spoken to shock collar trainers who deny that they are using electric shock at all; I remember one such conversation I had with a woman who was adamant that she didn't shock dogs, until I suggested that if the device contained a battery wired to metal terminals that contacted the dog's skin, it was delivering a shock, however she wanted to deny that fact.  It's common for advocates of physical punishment to propose the absurd idea that the dog can "choose" the "acceptable" behavior and so avoid or end the punishment, displacing the responsibility for his treatment from the human to the hapless dog.  Do people prevaricate this way because they are uncomfortable at some level with what they are doing, or because they realize there may be pushback from the public if they are accurate in describing their techniques?  I have no idea.  

I'm fascinated by the accusation that proponents of positive reinforcement anthropomorphize dogs.  It seems that in these posts, terms like "correction" and "discipline" (both code words for physical punishment); "respect" (code word for fear and the resultant inhibition);  "unacceptable" (code word for something I can't tolerate), "bad" (something that a dog can't be, because he can't be a moral agent); "leadership" (which has everything to do with human social organization and nothing to do with operant conditioning)--every one of them human, not animal, constructs--are being attributed to dogs by people who advocate punishment.  My impression is that they have no problem with anthropomorphizing as long as it is adversarial to the dog; it seems to be empathy with dependent animals that disturbs them.  Many of these posts come from people who seem to have genuine appreciation and affection for the dogs they punish; perhaps the realization that the dogs feel pain and fear the same way they do is too great a source of cognitive dissonance.  Nature Neuroscience published a review paper last year titled The Neurobiology of Punishment, and the subject of that paper was human behavior; punishment is apparently very appealing to us because we have neural circuitry that supports that kind of behavior.  Understanding that fact, however, should direct us to work toward controlling our impulse to punish. It's worth mentioning, too, that punishment is always an expression of a power gradient; that is, the punisher is always in control of the punished; if not, he has no power to impose punishment.  The mechanisms by which dogs feel pain are indistinguishable from ours, and the brain systems that detect danger and feel fear are highly conserved in all animals.  Learning requires a nervous system with synaptic plasticity, which is why so much of the basic science of learning has been accomplished using Aplysia (sea slugs).  Teaching an animal with the capacity to learn requires accurate knowledge, some motor skills, consistency and persistence, and patience--sometimes a lot of patience.  It does not require a forceful personality; the ability to exert leadership, ill-defined as that is; or the application of physical force or psychological coercion.  Anxiety and fear, activating as they do neural circuits that compete with those for learning voluntary skills, will make a brilliant learner ordinary and an ordinary learner untrainable.  There is no justification, ethical or practical, for setting out to train dogs in such a way as to elicit anxiety and fear.

Carefully designed and executed studies of competing training methods have been published in recent years.  This work is made possible by burgeoning knowledge of cognition and memory in animals, as well as an appreciation of their ability to feel physical and emotional pain and pleasure and to adjust their behavior as a result of all of these.  There may be room for more investigation of dog training methods, but it has become limited by these very advances in our understanding of the capacity of animals to learn, and even more, to suffer.  Randomizing dogs to punishment and non-punishment (or mixed) groups now represents a welfare problem, not only in terms of concern for their well-being during the study period, but in terms of the obligation to avoid the risk of lifelong disturbance of their relationships with humans and other animals.  In addition to the citations in other posts above, I find helpful: www.davemech.com, for wolf ethology; papers and book chapters by Luigi Boitani, for feral dog ethology; and clickertraining.com for current information on positive reinforcement based training in many species.  

 

   

Alison Seward March 18th, 2009 01:20:39 AM

Allison's eloquent post states:

"Before adding some comments on previous posts, I would like to mention that in my years working as support staff for veterinary behaviorists, I've taken a dismaying number of phone calls from people who sought help with their dogs, but had no idea how to separate informed and ethical professionals from sincere incompetents, snake oil salesmen, and animal abusers."

I respond:

And herein lies the crux. 

The dog training community is a small but ancient one, with history that dates back through recorded  time.  It is only in the last few years that 'pet dog training' has been highlighted through the virtues of the television and subsequent personalities that have engendered these philosophies, no more so than the last half dozen years with ESPN's "Train that Dog", National Geographic's "Dog Whisperer" and the most recent offerings on Animal Planet.

I agree that there is no governace for those professing to be dog trainers outside of organizational associations and 'certifications' limited by their recognition of the certifying body; none of which offer a true picture of a dog trainers' skill in handling animals safely or humanely. 

Allison also writes:

"Owners who are taught to train with electric shock devices may injure and torture their dogs with them.  Owners who are told to slap or bite their dogs, and this advice is not infrequent, may injure them.  Any and all of these techniques may result in a desperate animal injuring an owner or another person, and in my experience, this is not an uncommon result.  Professionals in this field must remember that we have no knowledge or control of the fact that our clients may be substance abusers, have anger management problems, be mentally unstable or under severe stress, so that abuse of dogs with aversive training techniques we promote is a risk we cannot calculate."

I respond with a caveat:

The abuse of dogs with ANY training techniques we promote is a risk we cannot calculate.  I am a huge advocate of people researching their trainer with at least as much enthusiasm as they would look for the newest nightclub or movie.  I have written about it tirelessly in fact.  I also feel it becomes the responsibility of the OWNER at some point to determine if the trainer is satisfying their particular set of needs.  I see the ramifications of poor training from all sides of the spectrum without judgement to method as I have used them all, but am absolutely incensed at the patent incompetence of these people who would deign to call themselves 'professionals'.

A person who kicks, hangs, beats, or hits a dog is no trainer, professional or otherwise.  A person who promotes these methods for dogs is no instructor, professional or otherwise.  By the same token, a person who uses positive methods  with really poor timing, who cannot identify correct timing sufficient to describe or demonstrate to an owner is no trainer either, professional or otherwise.

I do not agree that trainers using purely positive methods cannot be harmful to dogs or owners, as I have the same contempt for ineffective positive trainers as I do for those who routinely use physical force as a first option to train a dog.

I have seen what poor timing does and I have had many owners inadvertently reinforce the behavior they were trying to extinguish through the inept instruction of their positive 'trainer' to the point that their  dogs' behavior had become quite dangerous.

I have seen the product of some professional 'trainer' lighting a dog up like Las Vegas with the inappropriate application of an electronic training device too, and I am currently working with a 7 pound Dachshund mix that was absolutely HAMMERED with a micro prong. Again at the hands of a "professional".

These people are not my colleagues, and in no way can their incompetence be measured in any other way but by Allison's first paragraph.  They are charlatans, they are snake oil salesmen, they are fakirs. Whether they use clickers, collars or whips and chairs.

The politically charged popularity and subsequent erosion of language has a lot to do with this, as does the perception factor between individuals.  Although there may be 30 people in a room all looking at the same vase, all of them have a different purview and therefore see a different image.

What irritates me the most is the presumption of guilt that anyone who uses a slip collar, electronic collar or prong collar is by virtue of that fact 'abusive' and 'cruel' without benefit of audience. 

Incompetence occurs everywhere.

My angst stems from decades of seeing fads come and go and the same argument continue as to what constitutes cruel.  Equipment is inherently not cruel.  Their inappropriate application by some fool with a certification from your local dog training school, seminar or conference and a bright idea is my problem.  That they routinely condemn dogs to die through their absolute incompetence is my problem, that there is no accountability for these losers is my problem.

And that they call themselves Professionals is certainly my problem.

 

 

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Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 08:45:35 AM

Dr. K: Your explanations are pointless. Your reasoning for including your relatives story does not apply to Cesar. By your own admittance her reckless and moronic behavior was not a product of Cesar Millan, yet you include this story in a blog about how vet. behaviorists hate Cesar. You do have a point though, in one thing you said, let's leave it at that.

As for vet behaviorists inability to stand Cesar, perhaps it is because he takes clients (aka money) from them and let's be honest here, a large number of vet's are ruled by money. Have to get that new BMW, ya know.

Hobson: I'm sure it must have been a difficult choice. I would not have made the same one... I'll leave it at that.

As for everyone else, IMHO just do what works for your dog as long as the boundary of causing pain  (abusing) the animal is not crossed. Take all these professionals advice and seek every alternative. Most people in any profession are in it for the money. They will examine it from a financial standpoint. Remember euthanasia also carries a fee. When you've exhausted every possible choice or have desire to continue, please consider giving these animals to a sanctuary that deals with these sorts of issues. That way you get what you want and the animals gets to continue to live it's life. I know many will argue, but they are suffering. Agression is not pain, having your spine broken and being in constant pain every single waking moment is pain and that would be reason to have the animal put-down. Just my 2 cents, agree or disagree it does not matter, my beliefs will remain the same.

In closing, I see a lot of vet's here quoting the do no harm line. I find that very interesting, if you truly believe in that oath then why is it that you sit idely by when a number of your colleagues don't uphold that oath? It's nice to say you believe in these oaths and all that, and quite another to not compromise in its ideals. If you willinly allow it to happen then you are just as guilty and have no right to even utter those words.

Have a nice day.

William March 18th, 2009 08:59:42 AM

Dr K writes:

"William: The dog was euthanized because his illness made him increasingly unstable. That bite wasn't the last straw, though. A few months later, he lunged and bit her hand while she was preparing his meal. Unprovoked. The poor dog just was not right. "

This was not included in you original genesis of events.

You alluded to the dog getting put down after the face bite. And I quote:

"Back to my relative: After two years (and $20K-plus) of hard work the right way, one small bite based on the concept of pack mechanics undid it all. Her beloved (and I mean one really adored dog) was euthanized in the aftermath."

The fact that your relative spent over 20 grand on this dog with no resolution KNOWING that health may be affecting his behavior indicates to me a failure on the part of his health care professionals as you also state:

"Yes, you heard right. After years of dealing with this dog’s seizure/personality disorder by the book (neurologists, behaviorists, trainers, acupuncturists) his owner lost it and bit him."

I don't see a reference to veterinary care.

Finally, there is no such thing as 'unprovoked'.  As a veterinary professional surrounded by behaviorists, you should know this.

Just because the human cannot recognize what may have instigated the bite doesn't mean that the dog didn't have a reason.

 

Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 09:41:08 AM

Linda:

Finally, there is no such thing as 'unprovoked'.  As a veterinary professional surrounded by behaviorists, you should know this.Just because the human cannot recognize what may have instigated the bite doesn't mean that the dog didn't have a reason."

True dat. But normal daily activities aren't typical provocations. When there's no apparent (to the human) rhyme or reason, watching TV, reading a book in bed, cooking, etc. and your daily logs of his aberrant behavior don't make sense to the training, neurology and behavior staff, what do you do? 

In the end, they concluded that microseizures were causing the bizarre, episodic behaviors and not necessarily anything specific that she was doing or not doing.

 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 18th, 2009 10:16:34 AM

@ Allison: Your post is exactly what exasperates me about the PP crowd.  The us vs. them.  You wouldn't bother to comment on previous posts... hmmm... could that be because several of us are rational, middle of the road, whatever tool in the bag suits the dog trainers?

As for the Jindo episode - part of me agrees, and the other part of me knows that that dog would have gone the way of Hobson's dog had Cesar not intervened.  The dog had a LONG history of severe aggression, to the point where the man who owned him was uncomfortable even handling the dog in the home without a muzzle.  How many people would have sent that dog for the long sleep without a second thought?  Cesar's methods may have been disturbing, and as an animal welfare advocate I myself have trouble with his actions - but he saved that dog's life.  Do I agree with putting it on National Television?  HELL NO.  But if you take a look at several of the practices we use today on HUMANS with severe behavioural and mental instability issues, you may be equally disturbed.  As someone who has witnessed shock therapy (the intentional provocation of seizures by way of electrical stim directly into the skull as a way of "rebooting" the brain from depression mode - and quite effective in many cases, although not long lasting generally) I can say that our own medical methods can also be quite barbaric, unless you're the person suffering and begging for treatment.

@ Lis: If you're going to quote my posts, then perhaps you should read them thoroughly.  Did I mention ONCE that I poke or fake bite my dog?  As for everyone having such an issue with the hssst Cesar makes - Oh, come on.  He's building on what every behaviourist and trainer (SHOULD) know to be true - that using the word NO is a poor idea due to its general use in regular conversation.  How often a day do you say hsst?  Ok, so I don't say it, but I have my own repetoire of sounds that I use to express displeasure, and I have long before the arrival of Cesar. 

@ Linda:  Once again, I couldn't have said it better myself.  I second everything you've said here.  Any tool in the hands of an idiot is dangerous.  Someone in the anti-breed legislation fight once said that a pillow can be a weapon if you're creative enough, and yet we're not banning pillows, are we?

My dogs do not fear me, they are not fearful, they are not anxiety ridden.  They are happy-go-lucky and LOVE to work.  They understand that there are consequences for their actions.  They understand that they have a choice.  They can comply, and receive a reward (food, walks, access to something, toys, praise, etc) or they can choose not to comply and receive an aversive (a sharp look, a vocal correction, a leash correction, physical placement into position, etc).  They learn quickly that their choices are comply + praise, or failure to comply + aversive + comply + praise.  Regardless, the end result is the same.  What soon follows is a dog who complies with an extremely high success rate.  I was recently reading a book that claimed success was achieved when a dog complied 70% of the time - sorry, but I consider success a 99% compliance rate (no one is perfect).  If I give a command and my dogs do not comply, their lives could be in danger.  For example, if the aggressive dog Hobson mentioned above had a rock solid drop, down stay, recall, out and leave it, the aggression at the very least could have been managed (although what that dog was doing in public without a cage muzzle is beyond me).

I should also mention that my comment regarding fearful dogs being owned by pushovers was not directed at PP trainers (please stop personalizing everything).  What I was saying was that the general public has bought into the idea of PP training the same way that a portion of them have bought into Cesar's idea.  The same way that a watcher of Dog Whisperer may misinterpret the show into permission to hit, kick and otherwise abuse his dog, the reader of several PP dog books out there may get the idea that to provide consequences or aversives of any kind is akin to animal abuse.

Kim March 18th, 2009 10:40:37 AM

In regards to the dog mentioned in the opening - there ARE, whether behaviourists/trainers/JQPublic wants to admit it, dogs who are just plain "off."

They are rare - EXTREMELY rare.  In fact, I've only ever come across one.  A rescue dog (who did not come through my rescue, thankfully) that a nutritional client of mine adopted as a pup.  She was told it was a beagle, but the thing grew to be 80lbs.  From day one she had issues of aggression.  SERIOUS aggression.  Even at 8 weeks, the dog would grab, bite and shake - and not let go.  Not wanting to give up on this poor creature, she employed behaviourists, trainers, and anyone she could find who was willing to work with this dog.  She went through private training lessons (positive only - and I mention this in the interest of disclosure only - personally, I don't feel that this is a dog who would have responded well to aversives either).

She lived with her elderly father, who was always no nonsense with the dog, but always kind.  Very NILIF, I'm sure I don't have to go into further detail.  The household, in fact, was built around NILIF from day one.

She ended up in the hospital on several occasions with bites serious enough to require stitches.  The incidents were, in my understanding, what I would consider unprovoked from a sane individual's point of view.  Washing the dishes, the dog bit her in the calf.  Watching TV one night, the dog came downstairs, walked right up to her and asked for attention.  She asked him to sit, he did, she went to scratch him under the chin and he almost removed her pinky finger.  She was getting a book off the shelf, he jumped up and tore a good sized chunk of flesh out of her ribcage.

The final straw was when the dog was around a year old.  They were in the backyard, and things had seemed calm for a while.  Her father was sitting on a lawn chair, and the dog was sleeping.  The dog woke up, yawned, stretched, and LAUNCHED itself at her father, tearing open his stomach.  She dragged the dog off of him, grabbed a towel to try to stop the bleeding, took a look at the wound and knew immediately they needed to go to the hospital (over 100 stitches were needed - the dog literally tried to eat him).  She grabbed a fresh towel and away they went.  Her father stayed in the hospital for almost two weeks (there were secondary infections).  When she got home, she went out in the back yard to get the dog, who had been left there.  He was standing over the first bloody towel, showing ALL his teeth, hair up, hunched over, low growling.  She slowly backed into the house, closed the door and called animal control.  She still cries over the loss of the dog and the fact that she couldn't save him.

The dog was WRONG.  From day one.  I knew the day I met it, but I didn't know how bad, or I would have recommended euthanasia from day one (and I've only euth'd two dogs in my life, both for medical reasons - a pretty good record considering we specialize in aggressive animals).

And so, while I don't condone her actions, I do understand her frustration.  Just like people, there are some dogs you can't fix.  Although there are percentages are far from equal (I hate when perfectly fine, simply misunderstood dogs are labelled as crazy when from a behaviour perspective its clearly the human who is having the difficulties...).

Kim March 18th, 2009 10:59:27 AM

Kim and Dr. K. I agree that some dogs are "not right" and I don't understand why some (most) people don't or won't admit that. Humans aren't the onliest specialest species that can have developmental issues with the body and the brain. I'm sure most people have seen or heard about dogs born with missing legs and how they have a harder time in life. Yes, they can live and even do pretty well with the right owner and help, and so routinely putting them down at birth isn't as accepted as it once was. The issues with brain development that goes awry, however, are much harder to deal with pecisely because they aren't obviously seen or they are misunderstood. When the sweet human infant is a not tracking developmentally it can be noticed because we have tests to assess problems. Tracking the proper development times for other species, even our nearest and dearest dogs, is not something science can do with any accuracy yet. "Maybe it's just his personality" we might say, until the dog tries to eat someone who's just sitting there, and then, "Well, that's not right" is the correct observation. While we (mostly) no longer brutally confine mental patients, and we have scrictures against capitol punishment of the metally disabled and insane humans in our midst, does that mean we should do the same with dogs? Maybe, in some cases, if it's more a case of 'a few bricks shy' dogs (I have one of those - he's really not all there, but he's harmless in his gormlessness), but in the case of dangerously bi-polar or psychotic dogs, I think it's kinder to "let them go see doG" than to force them to interact with people who could be hurt by them and who could hurt them in return when things go wrong.

KateH March 18th, 2009 11:45:40 AM

I'm sure from watching Barbara Wodehouse's tv show that what she did worked just fine for her. But unfortunately, I'm not so skilled at popping the leash

and just ended up with confused dogs and a frustrated me. So, for me, clicker training works wonders. It's just easier to say "yes that's right" to one thing,

than "no wrong again" to twenty gazillion. 

But that's just me.

redh March 18th, 2009 01:31:44 PM

Dr K writes:

"True dat. But normal daily activities aren't typical provocations. When there's no apparent (to the human) rhyme or reason, watching TV, reading a book in bed, cooking, etc. and your daily logs of his aberrant behavior don't make sense to the training, neurology and behavior staff, what do you do? 

In the end, they concluded that microseizures were causing the bizarre, episodic behaviors and not necessarily anything specific that she was doing or not doing"

 

I write:

Normal daily activities are not provocations.  To people.  You are dealing with a damaged dog with seizure issues.  His "unpredictability" should have been a big factor in determining how he was dealt with. As for the training, neurology and behavior staff, the erratic behavior of seizure activity is just that.  Erratic.  It is not something that can be tracked with any legitimacy or predictability.

Two questions arise.  How competent was the 'staff' to have not identified the behavior as being part and parcel of the seizures and two: why was she not counseled for the likelihood of euthanasia?

On the second question, if she was so advised; I hate to say it, the bite was wholly her fault in more ways than one.

If the epilepsy and associated health issues were key indicators in this dogs' behavior, why did your relative bite him? This is a failure on her part.

As for what I would do, as the owner of the pet, I think I would have weighed my options and made a more permanent determination before someone other than myself got hurt.  As a Professional, it would have been my responsibility to warn your relative of the consequences of poor management and handling, and that I think is where all of her other costly advise failed her and untimately, her dog.

I have seen dogs like this, most recently an American Eskimo that became so erratic in his behavior (as you state, 'unpredictable') I counseled for euthanasia.  The grief of the loss is bad enough without having been compounded by the disfgurement of one's self or a loved one.

 

 

Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 01:37:45 PM

If the epilepsy and associated health issues were key indicators in this dogs' behavior, why did your relative bite him? This is a failure on her part.

I do believe that was part of Dr. K's point from the beginning--that it was a failure on her relative's part.

I have seen dogs like this, most recently an American Eskimo that became so erratic in his behavior (as you state, 'unpredictable') I counseled for euthanasia.

Why the scare quote around unpredictable? That there was a medical cause for it doesn't change the unpredictability of when the behavior would be triggered, unless knowing the medical cause provides a mechanism for predicting it. And with seizures,that's generally not the case.

And yes, of course we know you would have made better choices at every single point along the way. Who could doubt it?

Lis March 18th, 2009 01:54:21 PM

I do believe that was part of Dr. K's point from the beginning--that it was a failure on her relative's part.

And so this is grounds to blame Millan and his show?

---

Why the scare quote around unpredictable?

Because I do not believe in the term "unpredictable" as it is being applied here.

---

And yes, of course we know you would have made better choices at every single point along the way. Who could doubt it?

Everyone here is entitled to their opinions. Clearly you feel the need to be facetious?

I didn't imply superiority, you read it that way.  I suggested a tactic since Dr K implied a question to my post.

Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.

 

Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 02:51:59 PM

@redh: I find it incredibly telling that your timing via leash corrections is poor enough to yield less than positive results, and yet your timing via positive training yields something different.  What that says to me, simply, is that your timing needs work, period - aversive timing is simply less forgiving.

And once again you prove my point - that those who claim to have used aversives in the past have done so without any semblance of understanding in regards to theory.  The idea is not to correct the dog every time he makes the wrong choice - the idea is to teach the dog the cue (using whatever method you prefer - placing, luring, shaping, etc, followed by positive reinforcement) and when you are sure that the dog knows the cue/command, to begin to enforce compliance using aversives.

If you were starting from square one with nothing but leash corrections, or even starting from square one using leash corrections in the mix, it's not a surprise you ended up with poor results.

The only reason to begin using aversives from square one (and again, the term aversives covers a WIDE range of behaviours) is to avoid further use of unacceptable behaviours - NOT to simply correct less-than-perfect responses while training a command.  By unacceptable behaviours I mean jumping up, bolting through open doors, aggressive behaviour towards humans, chewing on lead - in short, anything that could put the dog's life in danger.  Sorry, but I'll take a harsh look/word or mild leash correction over having a dog I have to concern myself with at the front door for fear he may run into traffic, or jump up on some elderly person and harm some innocent individual.  Yes, I still train a sit and wait at the door, and I still train a sit on greeting, but it won't stop me from using a dragged lead to step on or a properly timed shake can to STRONGLY discourage behaviours that could potentially end a dog's life.

You're missing the point - it's NOT ONE OR THE OTHER.

Kim March 18th, 2009 03:04:11 PM

Why the scare quote around unpredictable?

Because I do not believe in the term "unpredictable" as it is being applied here.

So, if you know that the cause of the dog's behavior is microseizures, you can identify when, where, and in what circumstances those seizures will occur, triggering the behavior?

Or do you have some other, more sophisticated, meaning for the word "unpredictable" ?

Lis March 18th, 2009 05:49:49 PM

You write in your original response to me:

"That there was a medical cause for it doesn't change the unpredictability of when the behavior would be triggered, unless knowing the medical cause provides a mechanism for predicting it. And with seizures,that's generally not the case."

 

I respond that there is the POTENTIAL for "unpredictability" DUE TO THE MEDICAL CAUSE.  IT DETERMINES the erratic behavior. Not determines when it would occur.  "When" is not material. That it DOES, is material.

The owner ostensibly knew about the seizures, it was long suspected that the behavior was as a result of an underlying medical condition, of which the seizures were a part.

I stand by my original assertion. This was not unpredictable behavior.

Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 06:13:16 PM

Linda, I know that a major earthquake will eventually occur in my part of the country. Also, that the Yellowstone supervolcano will eventually erupt again. That doesn't make either event "predictable" in any sense that matters to normal human beings.

She knew that her dog would engage in those behaviors. But if she could have predicted WHEN, and in WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES, it might have been a managable situation.

Lis March 18th, 2009 06:26:03 PM

Lis,

The fact that the dog displayed erratic behavior with enough routine for it to have been diagnosed is the only key one needs to make a determination that it would not be a safe idea to bend down and bite a dog, or apply any aversive in any way.

 

As you said, she KNEW that her dog would engage in those behaviors.  As such, she had all of the information she needed.  It is no longer a matter of predicting "when" and under what circumstances.  It becomes a matter of ameliorating the probability as it occurs.

Linda Kaim March 18th, 2009 08:07:15 PM

Get a grip on yourselves -- it was an introductory anecdote to a topic worthy of discussion. Your opinions of the incident have NO RELEVANCE -- as well as being repetitive, annoying, and rude -- to the question of the merits of Cesar Millan's methods, their presentation in his TV show and DVDs, and how they are viewed by veterinary behaviorists.

NOBODY CARES what you think about Dr. Khuly's relative. She's not on trial. If you have nothing more to say about the topic of the blog, please just move on.

Susan March 18th, 2009 11:41:26 PM

The thing people need to understand about positive training is it is not always necessarily about using food. And it is certainly not bribing! Although there are many "trainers" out there who do not know how to use food properly, which is a valid argument. However, positive training refers to using whatever the dog enjoys (food, play, toys, going for a walk, getting petted or praise) to motivate the dog to learn. Often, food is used because almost every dog will respond to it. Food is used only during the initial stages of learning a behaviour, or when a new level of duration/distance/distractions is added, but is very quickly weaned off. The dog should still be taught that there are consequences to undesirable behaviour, and human leadership is important, but this can be acomplished through non-adversive manners such as removal of attention and resource control. Positive training is not necessarily about always using positive reinforcement, forms of punishment can be used but an importance is based on non-adversive and non-confrontational punishments such as time outs. It is important to understand punishment in operant conditioning terms, which is anything that is going to decrease the recoccurance of a behaviour. Positive punishment is adding something that will decrease the behaviour in the future (collar correction, spray bottle), negative punishment is removing something that will decrease the behaviour in the future (time out). Postive reinforcment is adding anything that will increase the occurance of the behaviour (treat), and negative reinforcement is taking something away that will increase the occurance of the behaviour (releasing a choke on the collar, releasing an ear pinch). 

While Cesar is not wholy abusive to dogs, and I have honestly never seen him hit or kick a dog, he does often do a dominance down, and forced exposure (flooding) is his main method for for treating a fear or aggression issue. Cesar definitely uses positive punishment as another component of his method for treating behavioural problems, often on choke or prong collars. While Cesar is never excessive in his corrections, the objection to his method comes from the fact that he uses alot of adversive techniques, (when these problems can definitely be treated with a more positive method) that viewers will most definitely try to emulate. This is very dangerous, considering most people do not have Cesar's knowledge of dogs, or his impeccable timing. It is important to note that what Cesar describes as "calm submission" is more often what is refered to as "learned helplessness" where the dog basically shuts down because it is so stressed it does not know what to do. I feel it is important to note also, that correcting a dog for displaying aggressive behaviour (natural ritualistic language for a dog to show it is fearful or uncomfortable with something) does not address the root of the aggression problem, and instead can cause the dog to have stronger negative associations with whatever was causing the problem, or to stop showing these signs and simply lash out without warning. What I feel is a better, and positive method, is to work to systematically desensitize the dog and work with counter-conditioning. Basically, getting the dog used to whatever bothers them and chainging the negative association to a positive one.

Positive training based on scientific learning theory can be used to modifiy any behaviour problem. Cesar's techniques can also be explained using learning theory but they cannot generally be described as positive. I do feel that Cesar's general mantra of excercise, discipline, affection has value, but it is outweighed by the fact that many will try (and fail) to emulate his adversive and potentially dangerous techniques. I do think Cesar has a great love for dogs and means well, I just feel that there is a kinder, gentler, and just as (if not more effective) way to train a dog.

Sarah March 19th, 2009 03:52:21 AM

This is an amazing and generally well-argued series of comments. The people who have responded here have shown a vast and far-reaching knowledge of many kinds of animal behavior theories. I'm just a cat owner who rescued an emaciated Plott hound when I was myself homeless (between homes) and staying with a friend who had three dogs and trained them using the "pack model." With her advice, my sister and I helped Eve overcome food aggression, her predatory instinct toward cats, taught her basic commands (though she was an adult dog of 2-3 years, she had not learned even the basics of socialization and good dog behavior), helped her overcome her fear of stairs and generally helped her become a loving, aloofly affectionate couch potato. We learned to use the alpha roll whenever she showed signs of aggression toward us or the cats and when she showed resource guarding behavior. We also used treats and other positive measures to teach her things. Then we discovered the Dog Whisperer -- and found some validation for what we had succeeded in doing. I have been an avid fan of Cesar's since his first show, but I have never slavishly followed his techniques. Some of them are physically beyond me -- I am a clutzy 50+ person who couldn't balance on one leg to deliver a foot tap (NOT a kick, please!)and can't stand up to walking a 60 pound hound dog for more than a short distance. However, I do embrace Cesar's calm assertiveness, his insistence that a dog not be the ruler of the house (that role is reserved for my alpha cat!)and his statement that dogs experience people as energy, as scent, as sound -- and ultimately as an image. If a dog strains at a collar so hard that he chokes himself, it's not the trainer who does it. Sometimes Cesar just holds a dog at arm's length because to confront a dog that is actively aggressive would be dumb. What Cesar excels in is teaching the owners how to use the tools at hand and how to improvise in ways that actually fulfill the needs of the dog while also making certain that the dog does not end up controlling an entire household. So, while I embrace Cesar's philosophy, I don't employ all his techniques -- either they aren't relevant to my situation or I can't physically do them. My dog Eve is still a work in progress, but then, so am I, and our committment is for life. I also have to comment on your link to the Temple Grandin interview. Along with Cesar, she is my other "idol" in the animal community. I was impressed with her assessment of Cesar -- there were some things she thought he handled badly and was very direct about saying it. There were also things he did that she liked and she expressed her admiration for those aspects of his work just as directly. She refused to comment on his dog psychology center because she had no first hand knowledge of the place. She did, however, watch many many of his episodes on DVD, so she was basing her assessments of him on her own experience of whole episodes. I respect her assessment, though I don't agree with them. But she is perhaps one animal behavior expert I would trust above all others to interpret what goes on with animals and how they perceive the world. She and Cesar are very near the same page on that aspect -- animals do not see the world as humans do. Taking her comments together with Cesar's philosophy gives a very comprehensive, not black-and-white approach to working with dogs -- or almost any other animal, even chickens, cats and dolphins! :) As Cesar says, all ways are good so long as they do not harm the dog. And I don't believe that Cesar harms the dogs he works with. I think that people have learned to label certain things as violent when they are not really seeing what is happening, only what they are told is happening. I would urge anyone who hasn't read Cesar's books or watched his DVDs to do so and then see if you still feel the same way. He has evolved and changed, he has learned to communicate with his human audience better than in his first years, and he has never stopped learning and evolving. I would also urge everyone who hasn't already discovered Dr. Temple Grandin to read her books -- both the ones on animals and the ones on her autism. They are remarkable for their insights into both the animal world and the world of the autistic individual, which she claims are not that far away from each other. Jackie Cassada

Jackie March 19th, 2009 07:45:11 AM

"However, positive training refers to using whatever the dog enjoys (food, play, toys, going for a walk, getting petted or praise) to motivate the dog to learn. Often, food is used because almost every dog will respond to it. Food is used only during the initial stages of learning a behaviour, or when a new level of duration/distance/distractions is added, but is very quickly weaned off. The dog should still be taught that there are consequences to undesirable behaviour, and human leadership is important, but this can be acomplished through non-adversive manners such as removal of attention and resource control. Positive training is not necessarily about always using positive reinforcement, forms of punishment can be used but an importance is based on non-adversive and non-confrontational punishments such as time outs. It is important to understand punishment in operant conditioning terms, which is anything that is going to decrease the recoccurance of a behaviour."

Ummm... yeah, until you get a dog who could give a flying squat about your resource control or removal of attention.  Until you've dealt with a few hundred aloof individuals, dogs who have never before experienced human contact, dogs who are aggressive or hyperactive, or dogs who simply haven't read anything by Karen Pryor and so fail to fit into your cookie cutter model of "Uh-oh, I didn't get a reward for that and I wanted it... better not do THAT again!"

In my experience, the fastest and most effective way to deal with a problem behaviour (again, depending on the behaviour at hand, the individual dog, and the situation - every issue is different!!) is to interrupt the behaviour with a no-nonsense interruption such as a verbal or leash correction.  This stops the behaviour immediately, focuses the dog on you entirely (when done right and with the correct force required for the situation and individual) and allows you a tiny window of opportunity to then introduce the correct behaviour, followed by lavish praise/reward for compliance.

Aggression is not simply a dog telling you he is uncomfortable with the situation at hand.  In ten years of dealing with aggressive dogs, I can tell you that the only thing longer than the list of aggressive manifestations is the list of behavioural motivations.  The two most common motivations, aside from feeling uncomfortable, are learned behaviours (such as the doodle I mentioned earlier whose owner had inadvertently trained the dog to respond aggressively to any novel stimulus) and those dogs who feel it is their job to correct the owner/others for what they feel are social transgressions (a perfect example of this object posssessiveness or possession over their person - we had a dog in rescue a while back who would bite its owner if its owner approached another dog first).

In both cases mentioned above, aversives were applied to enforce strong obedience compliance (99%) to show the dog that the owner, not the dog, was in charge of the situation.  Once that was established and the dog could be distracted from its ingrained behaviours easily, new behaviours were learned (submissive greetings, play behaviours, etc).

Both dogs had bitten - severely - on numerous occasions and both had been slated for execution.  Neither dog gave a damn about negative punishment. 

And these are just two examples out of hundreds.  Are all of my dogs trained using aversives?  NO!  But there are certainly ones who require it, who benefit from it, and who would lose their lives otherwise.

Once again, I must stress that I'm not defending Cesar Millan - what I AM opposed to is the use of Cesar as a jumping off point or an example as to why ALL trainers who use aversives in their toolbox are inherently evil/misguided/untalented/somehow less skilled than the PP crowd.

Kim March 19th, 2009 10:56:12 AM

Temple Grandin Interview:

Jill: New research shows that wolves (and dogs are genetic wolves) live in families, not packs, in the wild. How does that research change the way we should look at advice from someone like Cesar Millan, who says the pet owner should be the alpha of the pack?

Grandin: I think Cesar Millan is right when you get into highly artificial situations, exactly like what he has down there in his dog psychology center, when you have a whole bunch of unrelated individuals living together. Then he's probably right.

There are some things he does very well. I do not like what Cesar does with fear-based behaviors. I've seen some really nasty episodes where he tried to force dogs to do stuff they were afraid of, and it did not work. Where he seems to work well is with the very confident breeds of dog — the Rottweilers, etc. He can be their leader in a situation where it's not a family, and it works. But I think we have created so many problems with animals.

Kim March 19th, 2009 11:00:41 AM

Hey Kim,

I have to firstly, that you have more experience working with agressive dogs than I do, and I think you are absolutely right. There are many different types of aggression, and sometimes I reward will not work because it is not going to outweigh the dog's desire to engage in whatever behaviour. My previous statement is very general, as it hard to fit every possible circumstance into a few paragraphs. Resource control, in general and in contrast to physically dominating them, in an effective and non-confrontational way to establish leadership to a dog. By controlling everything they value, and making them work for it, dogs will see you as leader. However as I said, there do have to be consequences for bad behaviour, and these consequences will have to relate to the cause of the behaviour. If it is an attention motivated behaviour, a time out is very effective. In many cases, a time out is more effective because you do not run the risk of inadvertantly reinforcing the behaviour. I do understand that there are many, many different motivations for behaviours. You can't take my previous statement as an explanation for everything. The first step in behaviour modification is trying to figure out what the motivation is and then developing a program from there. There are many, many reasons fear or aggression can develop, and yes you are right learned aggression is a big part of it, as well as guarding. Showing they are uncomfrotable is not the only reason for dogs showing aggression, you are very right about that, but again can't fit everything into a few paragraphs. The point was that constantly using corrections (punishment) when a dog shows these signs is not really the best way to deal with these behaviours. I also use an interupter as you do, but instead I turn and take the dog away from the situation at the first signs of the dog changing behaviour. This is just one tool I use, and yes there are many different methods depending on the root of the behaviour. Another important point to bring up I think, is that different trainers are in different modes of the positive training spectrum. While some are extreme and believe that you should only ever use positive reinforcement (reward desired behaviours and ignore all others), many are more moderate and believe in  rewarding good behaviour and applying consequences to negative. Using punishments in training is not necessarily evil, when it is warranted and is not physically or psychologically damaging to the dog.

Sarah March 19th, 2009 12:43:43 PM

Since I was a child, I have loved dogs, but I have to admit that I have not always been successful at training the dogs I've owned. I have taken them to obedience class and worked with them and sometimes come away frustrated. Right now I'm between dogs; as a school teacher, I'm waiting until this summer to acquire a rescue dog when I will have the time and energy to work with the dog. I came across Cesar's TV show, and his methods made immediate sense to me. I haven't seen any evidence of the abuse that others have written about, nor have I seen dogs who appeared fearful after he has worked with them.

Many of the posts that I have read here seem to come from professional trainers; some posts allow that Cesar's methods are the best, some allow him praise in some aspects and decry his methods in others, and lastly, some believe his methods have no worth whatsoever.

Of all the responses I have read, I like Jackie's post the best (March 19, 2009, 07:45:11 AM). She admits that she is essentially a cat owner who happened to rescue a dog, and not a professional trainer. She states that she has used Cesar's methods when they are appropriate for her situation and her abilities, but she does not always use his approach because dog training is not confined to a simple black/white, either/or methodology. Dog training can be both/and, even many/and, where the dog owner can use any of several  techniques that work for both the dog and the owner based on the issues of the dog and the temperament of both.

I'm not a trained behaviorist, but I do have a degree in biology. Cesar observes that the mother wolf does not give out treats; she makes corrections, corrections that could save a pup's life when she isn't around. Maybe, as someone wrote, the interspecies communication between dogs and humans is not that simple, but maybe it is. However, everyone likes to be rewarded, so positive reinforcement seems just as legitimate a tool as any other to achieve the behavior that you want.

Whatever training methods we use, they should benefit the dog, help him or her be safe,  help him or her understand the house rules, and benefit both human and dog to develop a loving, trusting, mutual relationship. What I will take from these posts is a broader perspective on dog training. Like Jackie, I will take from Cesar what is Cesar's, but I will not, as I may have before, subscribe 100% to Cesar's Way; instead, I will read more widely and incorporate any and all methods that work or that seem beneficial that are not cruel or harmful. I am looking forward to the summer, to my new dog, and to working with him or her to be a vital, loving, functional, and integral part of my pack, and if anyone doesn't like the word "pack," try substituting "family"; I think, ultimately, they mean the same thing.

Craig March 19th, 2009 09:36:51 PM

CORRECTION

His techniques do not help address the underlying problems within the dog as his assumptions about why the problem exists are usually wrong.

Graeme March 20th, 2009 09:22:12 AM

Graeme, who is Alexandra Semyonova, and why should we regard her as an authority? Yes, I see that she cites references in her (apparently) web-only "book." Without the ability to easily look at the content of the works cited, I have no idea whether or not they support her point. And some quick web research turns up nothing to suggest that either she, or the "Carriage House Foundation" which is referenced, have any background making them credible as sources. Bear in mind I'm one of the Cesar skeptics, and this "authority" just makes me annoyed. Wolves and dogs share 99.8% of their DNA; humans and chimps share 98.4%. Wolves and dogs are a lot more closely related than humans and chimps. Saying that dogs aren't wolves is both absolutely true--and silly, if you take that to mean that they have little in common and you can't learn anything at all about one by studying the other. The link to the British veterinary hospital, Purton, which ultimately links to Mech's article revising his original conclusions bout wolf pack structure, is more useful--but it's about wolves, and so is irrelevant if we take seriously the idea in the other link--that dogs aren't wolves and aren't any more closely related to them than we are to chimps. (Even then it's silly; in fact studies of chimps and studies of humans DO inform and enrich each other.) The link to the paper "originally published in Veterinary Times"--perhaps Dr. Khuly can tell us whether that's a peer-reviewed journal or not. The SF Chronicle article--better, truly better! At least that cites and quotes a genuinely knowledgable and experienced person, with a reputation and the means to assess what he's saying, Ian Dunbar. But overall--please. There's lots of good material on positive-reinforcement training; don't undermine the argument by giving us nonsense.

Lis March 20th, 2009 10:04:48 AM

I am so disappointed that highly educated and intelligent people like you with DVM degree would write or publicly discuss about a particular person without knowing enough about him. It is enormously irresponsible to accuse somebody without studying by yourself. Most of your opinion is formed based on the second hand knowledge, and you hardly ever watched the Cesar’s shows nor read his book. Marking big X on Cesar’s face based on what he hasn’t done is a serious threat to your credibility. Do you like any of us take your photo and put big X on your face based on this one single comment? I don’t think so. I would assume that this comment represents only a nano part of your work and I have no idea how wonderful rest of your work would be. But you are doing it on Cesar’s face. Why? It is so childish. It is degrading your reputation not only as a professional vet but also as a responsible adult.

I’ve also heard Dr. Sophia Yin’s hateful comment on Cesar on a radio show a couple of weeks ago. Her comment was also based on a very limited glance of his show. I am so disappointed with the Vet community as they are not looking at a bigger picture and its criticisms are based on partial information. It is NOT scientists like behavior. We seek vets’ help, as we believe that vets are trained to analyze the condition scientifically and know the appropriate medical solutions. If Vet’s community is not acting like scientists, why do we have to listen to their opinion?

Cesar has been advocating seeking help from professionals and since the show started, the needs for dog training services grew significantly. He had saved so many dogs from being put down. Only reason I can think of why the Vet community is attacking Cesar is Cesar would bring down the number of euthanasia of ultra aggressive dogs and prescriptions to mentally unbalanced dogs. It will be less income for vets community.…. So sad.

Naoko March 20th, 2009 11:02:46 AM

Only reason I can think of why the Vet community is attacking Cesar is Cesar would bring down the number of euthanasia of ultra aggressive dogs and prescriptions to mentally unbalanced dogs. It will be less income for vets community.…. So sad.

Sad indeed. Talk about hateful comments--with an extra helping of completely inane!

Even if you view it in completely selfish terms, the vet's interest would be in having the dog successfully, trained, managable, and a regular patient for the next 10-15 years of its life. There would be a lot more money in that than in a single euthanasia.

Now, try NOT assuming that vets are cold and selfish and motivated only by money, and expand your mind to ask why knowledgable people who love dogs might have concerns about what some of Cesar does.

Lis March 20th, 2009 11:17:12 AM

Lis: To assume that vets are not "cold and selfish and motivated only by money" is just as insane! This world revolves around money and while it would be wonderful to live in a fantasy world where people only care about the well-being of each other and their pets, we live in a real world where money is the driving force for many. Are all vets driven by money, of course not! There are those that are and are quick to jump on the euthanasia train. Do some reasearch and see what some of those vets have done, see what they have put the owner and the poor animal through. While the comment you quoted is totally wrong because you can't cast all vet's in that light. I'm sure there are some that hate him on a personal level, others may hate him because he is taking business away, and others may just disagree with his methods because they feel their methods work with far greater success. So, in closing your comment is just as insane and you should also take your own advice about not assuming things.

William March 20th, 2009 12:23:05 PM

Lis, Alexandra Semyonova is a pyschologist and behavioral biologist who's been studying dogs and dog behavior for 15 years - you should look her up - I'd say she has as much and actually way more credibility than Cesar Millan. The works she sites in that article are also written by people who have been working with and studying dogs for years, and they also have more credibilty than Cesar Millan. I'm not sure what kind of wen searching you did, but it wasn't very good, so does that mean you have no credibility in what you said? You are entitled to your opinions, but please don't think that we should give them more weight when you make such a hash of trying to discredit someone else's.

KateH March 20th, 2009 01:40:18 PM

William.

Naoko is making the assumption that the ONLY reason ANY vet would criticize Cesar is greed, and that the lost business they're worried about is the lost euthanasias because these dogs become rehabilitated.

I am not assuming that NO vets are cold and selfish and motivated primarily by greed. What I said was that, even if you make the assumption that they all are, Naoko's theory doesn't make any sense. Euthanasia is one sale of services, one time, per dog. A dog that learns to behave correctly and becomes a successful pet, is a dog who will need at least annual care, every year, for the remainder of its 10-15 years of life--and many of those services will have a higher profit margin than euthanasia. Cold, selfish greed would motivate vets to keep the animals alive if possible, to get more money from them--not kill them.

And to toss out another slanderous assumption about vets, any vet who just likes killing animals can most likely find a "shelter" locally that will be happy to accept their services.

The vets who criticize Cesar have no doubt a wide range of reasons for disagreeing with him--a much wider range of reasons than Naoko is willing to acknowledge--but the only "greed" motive that makes sense is that the ones who are veterinary behaviorists who could be losing behavrior modificatin business--not euthanasias. Even this "greed" motivation doesn't exist in this context for most vets--no matter how "greedy" they are.

If you instead entertain the idea that vets are a diverse group of people with diverse attitudes, interests, experience, and knowledge in areas other than the direct subject matter of veterinary medicine (and even there, after all, as experience and specific educational backgrounds will affect that), then it becomes wildly unlikely that there is ANY one reason that vets with an interest in behavior issues tend to dislike Cesar Millan.

But the most likely and most common reason would be: they think other methods work better.

Lis March 20th, 2009 02:46:04 PM

Lis: That is assuming the pet returns to that vet. My comments were directed at you because your statement also made no sense. Vet behaviorist can and I am sure some do, hate Cesar because he takes money out of their pockets. The euthanasia comes into play when a vet is quick to suggest it. Let's be honest here a lot vets will just look at an aggressive dog and say euthanize. I would argue the line, where you claim that "Even this "greed" motivation doesn't exist in this context for most vets--no matter how "greedy" they are." I firmly believe that a lot of vets are primarily motivated by greed and anything that takes money away from them is an enemy. There are great vets out there that do care for the animals and there are horrible vets that just want to charge you as much as they can. I made my comments because I disagree with both you. You place vets on too high a pedastal and Naoko damns them based on one assumption.

"he vets who criticize Cesar have no doubt a wide range of reasons for disagreeing with him--a much wider range of reasons than Naoko is willing to acknowledge--but the only "greed" motive that makes sense is that the ones who are veterinary behaviorists who could be losing behavrior modificatin business--not euthanasias." All vets will watch each others backs, some do it because they want too and others out of cowardice, because they don't want the drama/trouble that comes with going against someone whom should not be a practicing vet. So there is more to it than you care to admit.

"But the most likely and most common reason would be: they think other methods work better." I disagree.  To me the most probable reason would be a combition of things. Loss of profit to Cesar, they feel other methods are more effective, and/or they feel challenged by someone like Cesar that does not have the "education" that veterinary professionals do. If you've ever worked in a highly diverse and intellectually driven job then you'd know how much the latter could apply. I've worked in both a biological setting and a computer science setting and I have witnessed people go bonkers because they felt threatened by someone whom they felt was intellectually inferior to them.

In the end the circle of dislike will continue no matter how much this is argued.

William March 20th, 2009 04:40:02 PM

Exercise

Discip[line

Affection

Theres no hitting or staring down in there.

I have read many books by world-authority behaviourists such as Karen Overall. In my opinion Caesar Millan says for the mostpart exactly what they say, except in a language that most people can relate to rather than hyped-up lingo such as "systematic desensitisation"etc.

I firmly believe there is a massive amount of jealousy and snobbery from within the vet profession directed towards Caesar as he is a)not university educated, and b)mexican.

Most people are unequipped to handle particularly aggressive dogs. With that in mind, as a vet with a particular interest in behaviour myself, I heartily recommend Caesar's approach to everyone, and the profession should just get over it.

Circe March 20th, 2009 06:01:20 PM

Furthermore, I have just read what those owners did. I'm sure anyone with an OUNCE of dog behavioural knowledge would not have done that to that dog without expecting to be bitten. Cesar in no way shape or form has ever advocated anything remotely approaching that method! Its ridiculous to blame him for the actions of an irresponsible owner who may have seen his programme, completely misinterpreted his methods, ignored the big "don't try this at home" disclaimer, and went and did a completely stupid thing with their dog, ending up getting bitten. No sympathy there I'm afraid.

Circe March 20th, 2009 06:16:12 PM

Ok, I have to intervene here - firstly, this isn't a matter of money - this is a matter of ideology.  This is a matter of us vs. them (koehler versus pryor for lack of a better heading).  It's  not the first time it's happened... it was Dodman vs. Pryor a while back...

As for this website (that as far as I can tell has no real links citing true references to back up the statements made therein for the most part) I can list at least a dozen published books whose works say otherwise.

Let's see, who can I pick out of the hat...

Jack and Wendy Volhard - have been training dogs, dog owners and dog trainers for over 25 years.  They have trained (as of 1997 - my information on them is a bit dated) over 20,000 dogs.  Between them they have authored hundreds of articles and are the recipients of more than ten Dog Writer's Association of America Awards.  Wendy is a member of the United Kingdom Registry of Behaviour Consultants and the Animal Behaviour Society.  They have authored books speaking about the "Pack Leaders Bill of Rights," "How to Become Pack Leader," and speak at lengths about Prey, Pack and Defence drives.  In fact, they have even devised a short test to tease out your individual dog's primary or most overwhelming drives, so that you will be better prepared to handle his training.  They believe in the Motivational Method, but have no issue with aversives (again, ranging from a glare to a leash correction) should the dog's nature and behaviour require one.

Raymond and Lorna Coppinger - Ray is a professor of Biology at Hampshire College, and he and Lorna co-founded the Hampshire College's Livestock Dog Project.  They have been studying dogs since the 1970s.  I found it seriously disturbing, and a real mark of this woman's "book" that she would quote the Coppingers in her efforts to put the wolf at an age of 135,000 years.  The fact is, as "Dogs - A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution" points out, that even the evidence pointing towards an age of 12,000 years is sketchy at best - and the same science that concluded dogs were 135,000 years old concluded that the DOMESTIC cow was 200,000 years ago.  This means they are as old (or older) than Neanderthal Man.  Hmmm... questionable?  Methinks.  Despite this, Ray does agree that wolves, coyotes and dogs most likely diverged from a single ancestor some time ago - funny, how wolves have a pack/family structure, coyotes do as well when large game are available, and so do dingos.  Foxes have even been known to have a pack structure in certain situations.  (my data, not the Coppingers, that last sentence - but check it out, it's for real).  So every other canid has a social structure... except dogs.  Huh.  This Alexandra person must have some real inside information (as in - outside the boundaries of requiring scientific validation).

Nicholas Dodman, BVMS, MRCVS, is possibly the world's most recognized veterinary behaviourist.  He founded the Animal Behaviour Clinic at Tufts in 1986.  Since the 1990s, he has written five books, all talking about dominance theory.  His most recent book, Puppy's First Steps, lists in the index under Dominance: barking posture, fear aggression vs., higher position and, humping, licking and, petting dog's head, piloerection, pushy pup description, pushy pup handling, Reverse Dominance Program and, tail position and.  It seems that the world's leading DOG behaviourist feels that dominance is very much alive and kicking.

Jean Donaldson, a dog trainer since 1975 is currently working towards her doctorate in evolutionary biology.  Interestingly enough, In her most recent book "Oh, Behave" she claims that dogs did in fact descend from grey wolves.  She also states that the DNA differential is 0.2% between wolves and dogs, whereas the differential between wolves and coyotes is 4%.

And finally, my favourite - Suzanne Clothier.  Not only does Clothier buy into the dominance/pack/family theory (call it whatever you want if it will make you feel better) but she uses... <gasp!> a prong collar!  while rehabilitating dogs.  Why?  CLEAR communication.  There is no mistaking what she is asking for.  Is she mean, abusive, hurtful, cruel, antagonizing, confrontational with it?  Nope.  She simply uses it as a tool for getting her message across as quickly and simply as possible - with SOME dogs.  With many dogs, it's inherently safer and more humane than a check chain, particularly when used as she does, on a "dead" link.  And what is her book called?  "If a Dog's Prayers Were Answered... Bones Would Rain From the Sky - Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs."  For any of you who haven't read it, I suggest you do.  When I read it, I had tears in my eyes.  Here was a woman who worked similarly to how I worked (no two trainers work the same...).  She used aversives, but she used them to further her relationship, not to aggressively dominate in the way that dominance theory has been portrayed for so long.

And so I leave you with more questions than answers.  Here are the facts - there are as many experts who say that dominance theory exists as there are who don't.  There are also as many who agree that aversives are fine when used correctly as those who don't (personally, I think there are more of us, just many of us are too afraid of being lynched to speak up).  And as for the origin of dogs - ummm... we don't even know the origin of PEOPLE.  So let's not jump the gun here, ok?  The fact is, we'll probably never know. 

That being said, the fact also remains that there's a good chance we can learn something about ourselves by watching apes and apes by watching ourselves (he's angry, she's scared, he wants that, she's excited, etc.).  And I believe that it's safe to assume we can learn SOMETHING about our dogs by watching canids (and not just wolves, but also coyotes, jackals, dingos, and the whole lot) and we've probably learned more about canids than would have been possible had we not shared our lives with dogs (oh, look... he's angry, she's scared, he wants that, she's excited....).  We understand a lot of ape body language because it reminds us... of US.  Sound familiar??

One final note - anyone who dismisses pack/family theory has obviously not cohabitated closely with a pack of dogs.  Our pack fluxuates (from a minimum of 4 to a maximum of 13-15) and I can tell you firsthand, without a doubt in my mind, these dogs form a pack.  In fact, the only time we get in real trouble is when they form two... ;O)  Regardless, I am the leader, and the reason there is peace under this roof despite the motley crew we have coming and going.  It would be interesting to see Ms. Alexandra live with a pack of a dozen dogs - most of whom have never learned a manner before, let alone a command - and come out of it still in disbelief about pack theory... unscathed, that is.  ;O)

Kim March 20th, 2009 06:36:28 PM

Whoops... that fifth paragraph should read "dog at 135,000 years," not "wolf".  Sorry for any confusion.  Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my thought process... lol

Kim March 20th, 2009 06:41:09 PM

Lis: That is assuming the pet returns to that vet.

The animal that's alive can return to that vet. The animal that is dead cannot return to that vet.

My comments were directed at you because your statement also made no sense.

Um, sure, after you torture all the sense out of it, of course it doesn't. Your determination to find that it's sensible to believe that vets encourage euthanasia of aggressive dogs because otherwise Cesar Millan might get the money paid out for training for them is impressive, but not terribly persuasive.

Vet behaviorist can and I am sure some do, hate Cesar because he takes money out of their pockets. The euthanasia comes into play when a vet is quick to suggest it. Let's be honest here a lot vets will just look at an aggressive dog and say euthanize.

Yes, sometimes, vets are very quick to suggest euthanizing aggressive dogs. However, in general that's because they believe the aggressive dog cannot be rehabilitated. Often they are mistaken, because most vets are NOT behaviorists. If they're afraid that if the dog lives, the owner might pay Cesar Millan or a trainer like him, rather than a veterinary behaviorist--and that therefore the money will be paid to someone not part of The Great Fraternity of Veterinarians--why would they not simply refer the owner to a veterinary behaviorist?

And, maybe this is just too weird a thought for you, but, even if the owner declines to use a veterinary behaviorist and hires Millan or a trainer of the same basic philosophy, the veterinarian can STILL sell more conventional veterinary services to the owner of a living dog--but not a dead dog.

I would argue the line, where you claim that "Even this "greed" motivation doesn't exist in this context for most vets--no matter how "greedy" they are." I firmly believe that a lot of vets are primarily motivated by greed and anything that takes money away from them is an enemy. There are great vets out there that do care for the animals and there are horrible vets that just want to charge you as much as they can. I made my comments because I disagree with both you. You place vets on too high a pedastal and Naoko damns them based on one assumption.

Yes, there are vets out there who care about nothing except how much they can charge you. Dr. Khuly has written about some of them in this very blog. But for all your attempts at "even-handedness," you're making it pretty clear that you have a grudge against the veterinary profession that far exceeds my own. You're assuming that they're a different order of human being than the rest of them--a lower order. The simple fact is that EVERYONE does what they do in order to make money--but people have reasons for choosing one way rather than another way of making money. For those considering making money as vets--it's easier to get into medical school than vet school (fewer available slots per applicant), it's harder (you're not studying just one species), there's not as much potential to get really filthy rich, AND your patients are more likely to bite you. So, really, to choose veterinary medicine as your preferred means of making money, there really has to be, at least at the start, an underlying care for animals.

Doesn't mean that affection for animals can't get worn away or swallowed up, or that greed can't overtake. Or that people can't get lazy. But if you start from the assumption that they're likely to recommend killing your pet because it's better for there to be no pet for anyone to treat, than that money should be spent for training with one trainer who won't be giving the vet a cut rather than another trainer who won't be giving the vet a cut, you're going to have a hard time finding any care at all for your pet.

Lis March 20th, 2009 07:05:19 PM

Lis, Alexandra Semyonova is a pyschologist and behavioral biologist who's been studying dogs and dog behavior for 15 years - you should look her up - I'd say she has as much and actually way more credibility than Cesar Millan.

Studying dogs and dog behavior--where exactly? And where is she published?

The works she sites in that article are also written by people who have been working with and studying dogs for years, and they also have more credibilty than Cesar Millan.

Citing good sources doesn't always mean the sources actually say what the citer says they say. I spent ten years as a librarian in the pharmaceutical/biotech R&D industry. First step in beginning research on

I'm not sure what kind of wen searching you did, but it wasn't very good, so does that mean you have no credibility in what you said? You are entitled to your opinions, but please don't think that we should give them more weight when you make such a hash of trying to discredit someone else's.

I'm not citing myself as an Authority. Semyonova is being cited as an Authority.

As for what kind of search I did--Initially, I did a simple Google on her name. Most of the time, if someone is a recognized authority in a given subject, the name and a word or two related to the subject will pop something. Not always, though, so the fact that it didn't work this time didn't disturb me much.

Then I used EBSCO, and then Infotrac, to do a better search in good databases. Nothing. The only hits on her last name, were for people who had different first names. And whose specialties were in different subject areas.

Then I went back to the web, and instead of Google I went to Medline. Same results as EBSCO and Infotrac: hits on the last name only, for people whose specialties are not in the right subject area to be this lady.

Ten years in pharmaceutical and biotech, and ten years as a law firm librarian--finding people and/or their publications is what I do. In my current position, I don't have all the resources I did in law and biotech, but the resources I do have, I know how to use.

Please do tell us what insitution she's with, and what journals she is published in.

And do bear in mind: I'm not a big fan of Cesar's methods. I used positive reinforcement training to rehabilitate my own fear-aggressive little dog. I loathe choke collars and pinch collars, and I regard alpha rolls as a great way to get bitten. I am not a hostile audience for arguments in favor of positive reinforcement and against correction-based training. But when people start citing Authorities expecting that to carry the argument for them, I expect the Authorities to have some substance. And I know that citations are worthless unless you can check what the cited sources actually say, because I have checked so many of them.

Lis March 20th, 2009 08:12:31 PM

Liz I'm not a behaviourist, I'm a veterinarian.  (I'm amazed at how many commentators on this site dislike vets).  My training in animal behavoiur at university was worthless.  I'm not an expert in any field.  I do  have the ability to challenge my assumptions and knowledge. When I was first told that dogs did not evolve from wolves I scoffed at the idea, it went against everything I had ever heard.  I have since changed my mind.

The problem I have is that the majority of people (this is not directed at you) believe the dog is an evolved wolf (directly evolved) therefore wolf behaviour is dog behaviour.   All canids have a common ancestor, but the common ancestor is not a wolf.  Dogs behave like dogs, not wolves.  Chimps behave like chimps, not gorillas.   Many mammals have a high percentage similarity in dna, in fact dog cytochrome C is 90% similar to human Cytochrome C; feline and human X chromosomes have the same gene order.  In the big scheme humans are closely related to many mammals, so don't get carried away with dna similarity. 

I agree we can learn from wolf behaviour (not the outdated pack theory) and Chimp behaviour and apply it to related animal groups.  What is silly is to think you can study a chimp and have a fundemental understanding of how humans behave.  So why should that be true of studying wolves and appling that knowledge to dogs?

The minute you allow yourself to consider that dogs are not evolved wolves you escape the limitations of the "pack theory".  No longer do you have to fit a dogs behaviour into wolf behaviour.

The fundemental principle used by most trainers to explain dog behaviour is pack theory.  A theory developed on captive, caged, fed, unrelated "zoo" wolves that has nothing in common with how a wolf pack actually behaves.  Our knowledge has moved on, we have a better understanding of wolf behaviour now we can track them better in a natural state.

The articles I have referred readers of this blog to in my previous post are not peer reviewed nor are some of them particularly well written.  They are not the last word on dog behaviour or wolf behaviour.  I have referred readers to them to hopefully allow those who are interested to challenge their current thinking.

Owners of dogs do not have a tame evolved wolf in their homes.  Even if dogs were tame evolved wolves, the rigid hierachical alpha male "pack theory" is poor science and is not how wolves behave in the wild so how on earth can it be applicable to the domestic dog.

I'm glad I've had an oppurtunity to voice my opinion.  Well done Dr. Khuly for challenging the misinformation Cesar Milan is disseminating into the dog owning public with his entertainment show.  I worry about how many dogs lives are being destroyed and how many dogs suffer the emotional abuse of being constantly dominated.  How many dog owners are turning what could be a special relationship with their dogs into a constant battle for respect, leadership and "alpha status".   This linear hierachy is so human.

Graeme March 21st, 2009 08:10:12 AM

@KateH: Firstly, the fact that you simply spouted a half dozen links that mention Alexandra, rather than any that produce any peer reviewed articles, published works or anything else scienficially relevent is simply making Lis's case - aside from her one website, the woman seems not to exist outside her own creation.

In addition, you had to link back to the site originally provided... and to an article she wrote that was simply pasted on the internet - claiming that dog's don't really have any control over their body language.  Ummm... I'm pretty sure we're going to be mostly unanimous here in saying uh... my bs meter just went off.

And as for your assertion that a family of wolves living together is so much different than my "artificial" pack of dogs... you're going to have to do better than that.  Exactly how?  Resources are shared, talents are combined to reach common goals, social behaviours are learned and disciplined, ritual behaviours are noted, follwed, and enforced (including ritual aggression and submission).

Just because the "alpha male" theory was proven incorrect, and it turns out to be "alpha parents" why is this such a major change?  We're still witnessing all the same behaviours - in fact, if you ask me, it makes more sense!  A random grouping of animals never quite made total sum to me... but a family group makes perfect sense.  And you don't just have to look at wolves for pack theory.  Check out coyotes, dingos, jackals, hyenas, wild dogs (wild, not feral), and even meerkats.  Pack theory exists, my friends.

What upsets you all is not pack theory, or dominance theory, or whatever PC name you want to give it today - it's the violence that is performed in its name.  The cruelty, the inhumane treatment.  The beatings, the cuffings, the alpha rollovers (seriously, these should be illegal). 

But pack theory is valid. 

Oh, and while I'm at it - did you READ any of my examples?  The woman is WRONG on so many levels - and there are a hundred experts with far more knowledge and experience who disagree with her on every one of them.  If you're going to argue this, choose a better "guru" at least.

Kim March 21st, 2009 08:40:20 AM

KateH, that is a set of links that, mostly, just links back to the same article that's published on the same Nonlinear Dogs site. The DogBiteLaw link quotes her and refers to her as a "canine expert" but provides no information on her credentials or experience. This one article by her, The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog, for all the high-falutin' description of it as "longitudinal study", has not apparently ever been published in any peer-reviewed journal. Nowhere is there any mention of Ms. Semyonova's education, experience, or credentials of any kind.

Anyone can post anything on the internet. Citing to their own internet "publications" isn't independent verification of anything. The "fancier" searches I was using search peer-reviewed or otherwise reputable, serious publications--publications that, yes, make a value judgment on the quality of the work and/or the knowledge and judgment of the author before deciding to publish.

Not everything worthwhile is published in such sources, but other things can allow you to assess the quality of the source and thus the validity and reliability of the work. For instance, Dr. Khuly's blog is not indexed in EBSCO or Infotrac or Medline, but we do know where she went to school, how long she's been practicing, and that she does have a license to practice in the state of Florida. When she talks about things outside her own experience or knowledge, she tells us what sources and authorities she is relying on, so that we can make our own judgments about whether she's using good sources--or we could even follow up ourselves and check them out, judge for ourselves if she's reporting them accurately. (Obviously not when she's relying on personal communication from another vet in private practice, but then we assess that against how reliable she has been in reporting sources we can check, etc.) She doesn't just say, "I Are A Vet And How Dare You Doubt My Authority!"

Assessing the quality and reliabilty of the sources is really the core of information literacy. A bunch of internet links to sites that link back to to the original "source" or that allow anyone to post what they like, or to web discussion forums such as Dogster (much as I love Dogster), are not sources that answer the question, "Who is Alexandra Semyonova and why should we believe she knows anything about dogs?"

Many mammals have a high percentage similarity in dna, in fact dog cytochrome C is 90% similar to human Cytochrome C; feline and human X chromosomes have the same gene order.  In the big scheme humans are closely related to many mammals, so don't get carried away with dna similarity.

Graeme, yes, mammals all share a lot. But humans and chimps are identical in 98.4% of their DNA, and dogs and wolves are identical in 99.8% of their DNA. This is not similarity in specific limited sequences, it's not having the same gene order--as far as that goes, there are some genes we share with fruit flies. If you don't beleive that humans and chimps are more closely related to each other than they are to dogs and wolves, and that all four species are more closely related to each other than they are to fruit flies, I can see that we might have a problem. But if you do accept that, surely you can see that 99.8% shared DNA is huge, that these two species are about as closely related to each other as two species can be, and still be separate species.

I'm not surprised you didn't get much in the way of good behavioral education at vet school; I'm not sure why you would expect to get much beyond the basics. It's further from the core of what vets do than nutrition is, and even that is something you have to specialize in to get much real information on. Most vets are not nutritionists, most vets are not behaviorists, either.

And please, everyone, bear in mind that I'm not questioning Semyonova's lack of credentials because I support pack theory and dominance training. I'm really truly not a supporter of dominance theory as a major way of relating to your dog, and I've used positive reinforcement to rehabilitate my own fear-aggressive dog. I'm questioning it because I hate bad arguments based on crappy or non-existent sources. Research and information literacy are what I do. I hate arguments that set off my BS detector, and I hate them more when I agree with the position they're supposedly supporting. :(

Lis March 21st, 2009 09:45:19 AM

"I'm questioning it because I hate bad arguments based on crappy or non-existent sources. Research and information literacy are what I do. I hate arguments that set off my BS detector, and I hate them more when I agree with the position they're supposedly supporting."

Lis: On this, we can most definitely agree.  :O)  Well said, I thought... although I would add a clarification - the article written was not one simply dispelling the use of dominance theory as a training theory - but actually arguing that dog behaviour does not include the use of dominance/pack behaviours at all.

While we may all agree to disagree on our individual views re: training and dominance theory, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us (at least those of us who have actually lived with a dog, and particularly those of us who have lived with more than one dog at a time) can all agree without much doubt that some form of pack behaviour is at work in those little "lemon brains" as Jean Donaldson so lovingly refers to them, at the VERY least amongst each other (I am a rational person and can accept that some people believe that dogs do not see humans as pack members and therefore pack behaviour does not apply to the dog/human relationship in particular). 

 

Kim March 21st, 2009 11:50:45 PM

I have been browsing through this discussion and admit that I haven't read everything in detail. However, the negative comments about vets caught my eye. I am a vet in general practice with an interest in behavior, and I have serious concerns about the message that Cesar sending to the public. Naoko wrote: "Only reason I can think of why the Vet community is attacking Cesar is Cesar would bring down the number of euthanasia of ultra aggressive dogs and prescriptions to mentally unbalanced dogs. It will be less income for vets community." This makes no sense (thanks, Lis, for your arguments on this point). I also don't think most vets are jealous of Cesar's success (or prejudiced because of his lack of formal education or race). Some of the prominent vet behaviorists speaking out against his methods are quite successful themselves, and it's not in their best interest dispute someone who has such a large public following. I feel they are expressing true concerns about his techniques and philosophy. The main reason I've seen to explain why the 'vet community' (and this is mainly vet behaviorists and those with an interest in behavior) is against Cesar is that we've seen too many dogs whose behavior has been made worse by forceful, dominance-based training methods. I feel that there are equally (if not more) effective methods which are less stressful for dogs and are much less likely to provide aggressive responses. I'm not saying that Cesar himself makes dogs worse with his techniques - I don't have enough information to comment on that. I only see what is shown on tv, and we all know that's probably highly edited. I've noticed that there is almost no long term follow up provided on the show, and I wonder what happens to those dogs after Cesar leaves them. There are some that I would bet are not any better long term, or possibly even worse. For example, I remember an episode about a dog that was very difficult for vet visits. Cesar went with him to the vet clinic and physically held him down for the vet to draw blood. I didn't see any indication that the dog learned anything that would make him less stressed or more cooperative for his next vet visit. Attributing almost all behavior problems to dominance, as Cesar appears to do, does not address the true underlying reasons for the problems. The majority of dogs who show aggressive behavior do so out of fear or stress. When you use forceful methods with dogs like this, you may get temporary improvement because you are suppressing the response or making the dog shut down, or you may push the dog to become defensive and bite. Do all the fans of the show not see the number of times Cesar himself gets bitten? Have you not seen the episodes where the dog is provoked to bite the owner in response to Cesar's actions? These are all situations which could have been handled differently to avoid getting anyone bitten. And in addition to these severe cases, many of the other dogs featured on the show are placed into extremely stressful situations, and you can see the distress they are in if you observe their body language. What I am impressed with is that Cesar seems able to consistently stay calm and confident even when he gets bitten on the show. I don't know what happens behind the scenes. But if Cesar gets bitten himself using the techniques that he does, what do you expect will happen to the average owner who tries the same thing? And will the average person not get angry and upset when their dog bites them? I wonder how many dogs have been euthanized or taken to the pound after they bit their owners who ignored the disclaimer and tried those methods at home? Naoko also wrote: "I’ve also heard Dr. Sophia Yin’s hateful comment on Cesar on a radio show a couple of weeks ago. Her comment was also based on a very limited glance of his show. I am so disappointed with the Vet community as they are not looking at a bigger picture and its criticisms are based on partial information." If you read Dr. Yin's comments on this discussion (posted March 16th, 2009 07:49:56 PM), you'll see she actually references specific clips from episodes of The Dog Whisperer. I have seen her reference a number of other clips too, so her comments are not "based on a very limited glance". I have watched a number of the episodes myself because I wanted to see what everyone was talking about. I don't think it's all bad, but I have to force myself to keep watching them because I hate seeing how often severely stressed dogs are pushed beyond their limits. I would also argue that the vet community IS looking at the bigger picture. The controversy about Cesar is not just about what he does himself; it is about the methods and philosophy he represents and promotes. Cesar seems to be pretty effective at using those techniques from what's shown on tv (if you define "effective" as being able to make the dog do what you want at that moment - I can't comment about his long term effectiveness and success). The average dog owner watching the show could potentially do a lot of damage to their relationship with their dog by trying his techniques. Sure, with the disclaimer, the owner will always get blamed for poor outcomes, but if people aren't using his methods, why are we having this dicussion?

Jennifer March 22nd, 2009 01:38:14 AM

Sorry, I'm obviously not experienced with posting to forums like this. I wrote my long message above in plain text, and it was broken into paragraphs when I submitted it!

Jennifer March 22nd, 2009 01:45:10 AM

Liz you are quite correct on some levels but...

Graeme, yes, mammals all share a lot. But humans and chimps are identical in 98.4% of their DNA, and dogs and wolves are identical in 99.8% of their DNA. This is not similarity in specific limited sequences, it's not having the same gene order--as far as that goes, there are some genes we share with fruit flies. If you don't beleive that humans and chimps are more closely related to each other than they are to dogs and wolves, and that all four species are more closely related to each other than they are to fruit flies, I can see that we might have a problem. But if you do accept that, surely you can see that 99.8% shared DNA is huge, that these two species are about as closely related to each other as two species can be, and still be separate species.

Of course chimps and humans are closely related but that 0.6% difference in our DNA is a chasm, it's massive and it makes us very different.  Different enough to share us much in behaviour as we do in looks perhaps?  Dogs are closely related to wolves but are very different animals.  You can't use the relative amount of shared DNA as a basis for shared behaviour. (ok, so your not only using DNA similarity I accept that, but thats how you come across)

I'm not surprised you didn't get much in the way of good behavioral education at vet school; I'm not sure why you would expect to get much beyond the basics. It's further from the core of what vets do than nutrition is, and even that is something you have to specialize in to get much real information on. Most vets are not nutritionists, most vets are not behaviorists, either.

Most vets are asked for advice on nutrition and behaviour every day.  Clients trust us and think we know everything. I address these subjects in almost every consultation.  We don't get the detail we need at university.  Many of us educate ourselves about these subjects in the same way you may have (I'm not certain of your knowledge or background but you obviously know enough to judge the knowledge vets have).  The problem is that vets who don't seek out information find themselves watching the discovery channel and advising owners to dominate their dogs to resolve behaviour problems courtesy of Cesar, or telling owners to feed any dog food that comes in bag at walmart.

Nutrition is at the core of what vets do, and if it's not it should be.  How else can you maintain health and recover from disease if your vet does not address your nutritional status.  I'm suprised you think we should not be well trained in these areas, we can make a huge difference and people often ask us first for advice.

I hate bad arguments based on crappy or non-existent sources. Research and information literacy are what I do. I hate arguments that set off my BS detector, and I hate them more when I agree with the position they're supposedly supporting. :(

For your own sake, relax.  This is a blog where people express opinions and comment.  It's not a journal.  It does not claim to be a trusted resource or the final word in anything.  All I wanted readers to do was challenge the way they think about dogs.  I would hope they could make their own mind up on the content, and if they can't then I can't help them.  I hope you read Semyonova's extracts from her as yet unpublished book and thought about the content before your BS detector set you reeling in the opposite direction.

Thing is I actually think we are closer in our thinking than it appears but we end up arguing about the credentials of people.   

 

Graeme March 22nd, 2009 07:47:05 AM

Of course chimps and humans are closely related but that 0.6% difference in our DNA is a chasm, it's massive and it makes us very different.  Different enough to share us much in behaviour as we do in looks perhaps?  Dogs are closely related to wolves but are very different animals.  You can't use the relative amount of shared DNA as a basis for shared behaviour. (ok, so your not only using DNA similarity I accept that, but thats how you come across)

Graeme, the difference between humans and chimps is not 0.6%, but 1.6%.  And the more we study chimps, the more "shared behaviors" we find--especially if you compare chimps, not to modern city dwellers, but to hunter-gatherers. The difference between dogs and wolves is 0.2%.

Yes, small differences can have a large impact, but a lot of the difference between dogs and wolves is the neotenization of dogs compared to wolves. This has significant behavioral consequences, but it doesn't make them a completely different order of being.

Frankly, I get frustrated both by the people who assert Dogs Aren't Wolves, and therefore we can't learn anything about dogs from wolves and we can completely ignore pack dynamics and the areas where our body language is different from wolves or dogs, AND the people who assert Dogs ARE Wolves, and therefore everything is all about Dominance, every behavior issue is a dominance issue, Raw is the only correct, "natural", healthy feeding method.

Dogs both are wolves, and aren't wolves. They are different from wolves specifically in ways that make them easier to live with and more suitable as human companions and partners. We make mistakes if we do EITHER of assuming we can treat them like little humans in fur suits (ignoring everything we know about wolves, and everything we know about pack dynamics), OR assuming that they are exactly like wolves, that wolves are exactly like Mech's original observations of an artificial pack in captivity, and that everything is All About Dominance.

For your own sake, relax.  This is a blog where people express opinions and comment.  It's not a journal.  It does not claim to be a trusted resource or the final word in anything.  All I wanted readers to do was challenge the way they think about dogs.  I would hope they could make their own mind up on the content, and if they can't then I can't help them.  I hope you read Semyonova's extracts from her as yet unpublished book and thought about the content before your BS detector set you reeling in the opposite direction.

Graeme, you cited "sources" and tried to argue from Authority. Once you venture into that territory, if your sources are bad, you can expect someone to call you on it. Semyonova is arguing that dogs don't have dominance behaviors or pack dynamics at all, which, as Kim notes, is not something one can easily believe if you've ever lived with dogs, and especially if you've ever lived with two or three dogs.

Jennifer--if you're using Internet Explorer, you need to use HTML tags to break up your post into paragraphs etc. Specifically, the tag for paragraph breaks is:

last line of paragraph here

< b r >

< b r >

first line of next paragraph here

Use the angle brackets, and remove the spaces within the angle brackets.

Or if you can use Firefox instead of Internet Explorer, you can get all the effects, including paragraph breaks, without knowing HTML code.

Lis March 22nd, 2009 09:04:19 AM

Oh, and remove the spaces between lines, too. And imagine me blushing at the goof.

Lis March 22nd, 2009 09:05:54 AM

Sorry for the repeat post. This is essentially the same as my message above but hopefully in more readable form. Thanks, Lis!

I have been browsing through this discussion and admit that I haven't read everything in detail. However, the negative comments about vets caught my eye. I am a vet in general practice with an interest in behavior, and I have serious concerns about the message that Cesar sending to the public.

Naoko wrote: "Only reason I can think of why the Vet community is attacking Cesar is Cesar would bring down the number of euthanasia of ultra aggressive dogs and prescriptions to mentally unbalanced dogs. It will be less income for vets community."

This makes no sense (thanks, Lis, for your arguments on this point). I also don't think most vets are jealous of Cesar's success (or prejudiced because of his lack of formal education or race). Some of the prominent vet behaviorists speaking out against his methods are quite successful themselves, and it's not in their best interest dispute someone who has such a large public following. I feel they are expressing true concern about his techniques and philosophy.

The main reason I've seen to explain why the 'vet community' (and this is mainly vet behaviorists and those with an interest in behavior) is against Cesar is that we've seen too many dogs whose behavior has been made worse by forceful, dominance-based training methods. We feel that there are equally (if not more) effective methods which are less stressful for dogs and are much less likely to provide aggressive responses.

I'm not saying that Cesar himself makes dogs worse with his techniques - I don't have enough information to comment on that. I only see what is shown on tv, and we all know that's probably highly edited. I've noticed that there is almost no long term follow up provided on the show, and I wonder what happens to those dogs after Cesar leaves them. There are some that I would bet are not any better long term, or possibly even worse. For example, I remember an episode about a dog that was very difficult for vet visits. Cesar went with him to the vet clinic and physically held him down for the vet to draw blood. I didn't see any indication that the dog learned anything that would make him less stressed or more cooperative for his next vet visit.

Attributing almost all behavior problems to dominance, as Cesar appears to do, does not address the true underlying reasons for the problems. The majority of dogs who show aggressive behavior do so out of fear or stress. When you use forceful methods with dogs like this, you may get temporary improvement because you are suppressing the response or making the dog shut down, or you may push the dog to become defensive and bite.

Do all the fans of the show not see the number of times Cesar himself gets bitten? Have you not seen the episodes where the dog is provoked to bite the owner in response to Cesar's actions? These are all situations which could have been handled differently to avoid getting anyone bitten. And in addition to these severe cases, many of the other dogs featured on the show are placed into extremely stressful situations, and you can see the distress they are in if you observe their body language.

What I am impressed with is that Cesar seems able to consistently stay calm and confident even when he gets bitten on the show. I don't know what happens behind the scenes. But if Cesar gets bitten himself using the techniques that he does, what do you expect will happen to the average owner who tries the same thing? And will the average person not get angry and upset when their dog bites them? I wonder how many dogs have been euthanized or taken to the pound after they bit their owners who ignored the disclaimer and tried those methods at home?

Naoko also wrote: "I’ve also heard Dr. Sophia Yin’s hateful comment on Cesar on a radio show a couple of weeks ago. Her comment was also based on a very limited glance of his show. I am so disappointed with the Vet community as they are not looking at a bigger picture and its criticisms are based on partial information."

If you read Dr. Yin's comments on this discussion (posted March 16th, 2009 07:49:56 PM), you'll see she actually references specific clips from episodes of The Dog Whisperer. I have seen her reference a number of other clips too, so her comments are not "based on a very limited glance". I have watched a number of the episodes myself because I wanted to see what everyone was talking about. I don't think it's all bad, but I have to force myself to keep watching them because I hate seeing how often severely stressed dogs are pushed beyond their limits.

I would also argue that the vet community IS looking at the bigger picture. The controversy about Cesar is not just about what he does himself; it is about the methods and philosophy he represents and promotes. Cesar seems to be pretty effective at using those techniques from what's shown on tv (if you define "effective" as being able to make the dog do what you want at that moment - I can't comment about his long term effectiveness and success). The average dog owner watching the show could potentially do a lot of damage to their relationship with their dog by trying his techniques.

Sure, with the disclaimer, the owner will always get blamed for poor outcomes, but if people aren't using his methods, why are we having this dicussion? And even trainers using or recommending these types of methods can make dogs worse (personal experience, as well as speaking to clients and friends), so seeking a professional won't necessarily avoid the problem.

Jennifer March 22nd, 2009 12:12:58 PM

Liz, I'm giving up after this post.  I appreciate what you are saying and don't disagree in principle to what you have said about referencing material.   My mistake for pointing people to a source you don't think has enough kudos behind her to have an opinion. Next time I'll check with you.  As to arguing from Authority - give me a break, I never claimed to be an authority on anything and never gave you my background.  I gave my opinion as I'm entitled to.  I hoped to challenge readers traditional thinking and did not claim to be the last word on animal behaviour.  Might I suggest the world is not flat....

Semyonova is arguing that dogs don't have dominance behaviors or pack dynamics at all, which, as Kim notes, is not something one can easily believe if you've ever lived with dogs, and especially if you've ever lived with two or three dogs.

I have lived with groups of dogs for 40 years (that must make me an expert, surely:). Semyonova lives with a group of dogs and was looking for a different way to explain their behaviour.  Semyonova is not my guru, no more than any other behaviourist who thinks and puts forward a theory is my guru.

I've thought about pack theory, I have observed my dogs and other groups of dogs.  I work with dogs every day of my life (does that make me an expert?).   My dogs don't live in a pack, they don't have a hierachy.  The hierachical pack theory does not come close to explaining how my dogs interact or how they see me.  There has to be a better way...

Either I'm horribly confused OR I see something you do not see.  We have obviously have different opinions.  I used to think dominance and pack theory explained a lot when it came to dogs.  I no longer do.

Can we agree Cesar is a fruitcake?

Graeme March 22nd, 2009 02:32:14 PM

Interesting discussion. We like to watch Cesar and also Victoria Stillwell. Sometimes we all learn by watching what others are doing. H

Hank March 23rd, 2009 01:19:39 AM

It strikes me that most of the posts refer to Cesar Millan's television show, but not his book. Before I knew anything about him, I heard him interviewed on the radio, and he said some things that I found disturbing, so I immediately got his book and read it carefully (I actually have ten pages of notes I wrote while reading, mostly comments reflecting my amazement at his ridiculous attitude and training rules). The man really scares me. First of all, there are so many references to how dogs act "in the wild" that it made me want to scream. When was the last time you actually saw a Shih Tzu in the wild? He advocates exercise. Ok, so far so good. Exercise is important, of course. But his idea of exercise is walking three miles a day, and not letting your dog sniff during the walk. This so different from, for instance, Turid Ruugas's compassionate and thoughtful statement (in "My Dog Pulls, What Should I Do?") that dogs MUST be allowed to sniff on walks for their mental health. A dog's mental health is something that Millan doesn't seem to think or care about (although he claims to be interested in well-adjusted dogs). And before anyone responds that you shouldn't let your dog be pulling you here and there to sniff anything and everything, this is not what I mean. You can still be in charge of the walk, but not letting your dog sniff is just plain mean, and the sign of a control freak. He says that exercise "should be the first and most important activity between dog and significant other." Again, exercise is important, to dogs and to humans. But we don't build our relationships on it. His whole "exercise, discipline, love" hierarchy is just that, a hierarchy with love at the very bottom. Affection, according to him, is the least important and can be used as a reward "preferably with no verbal sound." How silly! Some other statements about affection from his book: "When is the right time to share affection? After a dog has exercised and eaten." "To have to work for affection is a very natural thing for a dog." "Start the day with very little touch or talk, saving affection for after the walk." "After exercise and food comes affection time. Instruct your dog to be in a calm submissive position, and then love him till its [sic] time to go to work." This is not "love." This is a contrived display of affection. A reward. People who love their dogs do not withhold showing their affection, assuming, of course, the dog is not doing anything wrong. But he isn't saying don't show affection if the dog is not obeying you, or doing something you don't want, he's saying affection should only be shown at certain specified times, after exercise and food (even if the dog is being perfectly well-behaved). This is ridiculous. And get this: with a new dog, he recommends "that families hold off on affection for a week or two." How completely monstrous! Elsewhere in the book he says, "Remember, your dog has four choices when interacting with other dogs–fight, flight, avoid, or submit." Really? What about having a normal social interaction? What about just hanging out? What about simply playing and having fun? It's ironic, because he keeps harping on the fact that dogs need to be dogs, and yet he never really allows for dogs to just be dogs and have fun, cuddle with their humans or other dogs, play.... There is so much more in the book that I find totally ridiculous and wrong-headed. I have known a lot of dogs, but none of them has fit his description of dogs. The truth is, I wouldn't let that man anywhere near any of my dogs (and by the way, my dogs are all quite well-adjusted, particularly in light of the fact that some of them had extremely bad pasts and had "issues" when they came to me.) Having said that, I think there might be a place for his type of work, and that is with the VERY small minority of dogs who have been deemed irremediably vicious, and for whom all other forms of rehabilitation have failed, and the only real alternative would be death. But for the vast majority of dogs, "Cesar's Way" is the wrong way.

Tina Clark March 23rd, 2009 01:54:30 PM

I apologize for the formatting (or lack thereof) in my previous post. I'm trying it again. Sorry for the problem. Hope this one works.

It strikes me that most of the posts refer to Cesar Millan's television show, but not his book. Before I knew anything about him, I heard him interviewed on the radio, and he said some things that I found disturbing, so I immediately got his book and read it carefully (I actually have ten pages of notes I wrote while reading, mostly comments reflecting my amazement at his ridiculous attitude and training rules). The man really scares me.

First of all, there are so many references to how dogs act "in the wild" that it made me want to scream. When was the last time you actually saw a Shih Tzu in the wild?

He advocates exercise. Ok, so far so good. Exercise is important, of course. But his idea of exercise is walking three miles a day, and not letting your dog sniff during the walk. This so different from, for instance, Turid Ruugas's compassionate and thoughtful statement (in "My Dog Pulls, What Should I Do?") that dogs MUST be allowed to sniff on walks for their mental health. A dog's mental health is something that Millan doesn't seem to think or care about (although he claims to be interested in well-adjusted dogs). And before anyone responds that you shouldn't let your dog be pulling you here and there to sniff anything and everything, this is not what I mean. You can still be in charge of the walk, but not letting your dog sniff is just plain mean, and the sign of a control freak.

He says that exercise "should be the first and most important activity between dog and significant other." Again, exercise is important, to dogs and to humans. But we don't build our relationships on it.

His whole "exercise, discipline, love" hierarchy is just that, a hierarchy with love at the very bottom. Affection, according to him, is the least important and can be used as a reward "preferably with no verbal sound." How silly!

Some other statements about affection from his book:
"When is the right time to share affection? After a dog has exercised and eaten."

"To have to work for affection is a very natural thing for a dog."

"Start the day with very little touch or talk, saving affection for after the walk."

"After exercise and food comes affection time. Instruct your dog to be in a calm submissive position, and then love him till its [sic] time to go to work." This is not "love." This is a contrived display of affection. A reward. People who love their dogs do not withhold showing their affection, assuming, of course, the dog is not doing anything wrong. But he isn't saying don't show affection if the dog is not obeying you, or doing something you don't want, he's saying affection should only be shown at certain specified times, after exercise and food (even if the dog is being perfectly well-behaved). This is ridiculous.

And get this: with a new dog, he recommends "that families hold off on affection for a week or two." How completely monstrous!

Elsewhere in the book he says, "Remember, your dog has four choices when interacting with other dogs–fight, flight, avoid, or submit." Really? What about having a normal social interaction? What about just hanging out? What about simply playing and having fun? It's ironic, because he keeps harping on the fact that dogs need to be dogs, and yet he never really allows for dogs to just be dogs and have fun, cuddle with their humans or other dogs, play....

There is so much more in the book that I find totally ridiculous and wrong-headed. I have known a lot of dogs, but none of them has fit his description of dogs. The truth is, I wouldn't let that man anywhere near any of my dogs (and by the way, my dogs are all quite well-adjusted, particularly in light of the fact that some of them had extremely bad pasts and had "issues" when they came to me.)

Having said that, I think there might be a place for his type of work, and that is with the VERY small minority of dogs who have been deemed irremediably vicious, and for whom all other forms of rehabilitation have failed, and the only real alternative would be death. But for the vast majority of dogs, "Cesar's Way" is the wrong way.

Tina Clark March 23rd, 2009 02:04:00 PM

Tina: The particular book you're referring to is the only book I currently don't have in my collection (which irks me beyond explanation - I detest not being able to respond to a reference) and so I can't respond fully here quite simply because I don't have all the information.  From the small portion you've provided, I can see where you're coming from.  However, it's important to keep in mind the kind of dogs that Cesar sees on a daily basis.  Coddled, almost ruined dogs who have received affection, affection, affection - and little else.

Also, please be careful and do not misquote.  Cesar has never said "Exercise, Discipline, Love" - his mantra is "Exercise, Discipline, Affection."  There's a BIG difference. 

From a behaviourist standpoint, a dog DOES only have four choices in ANY situation.  Fight, flight, avoid, submit.  You're misunderstanding, however.  Submit does not mean complete submission to the other dog - obviously one dog is going to be dominant over the other.  However, the dog does have to submit to the exercise or ritual at hand.  My youngest girl, for example, is a social butterfly and immediately submits to ANY new dog - simply to put them at ease.  She then tests the water, and will quickly take a dominant role if she reads any weakness in that dog's actions or personality.  As for "just hanging out" from a behaviour standpoint that can be construed as avoidance or submission depending on the relative space between the two animals the body posture being shown.

Again, I can't defend the book - and I can't defend Cesar, not entirely.  In fact, I don't think there's a single trainer on the planet I agree with 100%.  Such is life, and the reason that rational discussion and learning occurs!! 

As for his suggestion that dogs should not sniff during their walks, I happen to be in agreement.  I don't believe, like some do, that my dogs should heel, or remain behind me at all times, but they should remain on loose lead and their focus should remain on me, even if it's just a small portion.  If I make an odd movement, change direction/speed/etc, they should immediately correct to maintain their loose lead.  This does not leave time for sniffing around.  Not to mention the number of diseases and parasites that are spread through contact with other dogs urine and feces.  Now, when we get to our destination, they are put on long lines or flexi leashes, and they are allowed to run and play and frolic to their hearts content.  But the walk back is again under control.  I don't feel that this is me being a "control freak," but rather I feel that this is our time to connect and do something in tandem. 

We're not morning cuddlers either - we wake up, go for our walk, have our romp, walk home, have breakfast, a few quick pets, and off to work we all go (the dogs come with me).  They know that affection MEANS something.  All I have to do is look at my older girl with a smile and a gleam in my eye, and her whole body wags.  She knows I love her.  I don't have to smother her with touches, or fatten her with treats... I show her love by providing her outlets for her energy, by fulfilling all of her needs, and at the end of the day we all get into bed together and we snuggle all night long.  My dogs know they're loved, they are extremely bonded to me without being obsessive, and they are incredibly obedient.  They have lovely temperaments, are calm, and the perfect canine ambassadors while at work.

Perhaps for YOU, Cesar's way is the wrong way... but you are not a dog - and shouldn't speak for their "vast majority."  Once again I offer the example of Paul Loeb - you want a truly horrific piece of drivel, pick up this collection of a few hundred sheets of bird cage liner.  I can say horrific because this man advocates hitting the dog, spanking the dog, throwing things at the dog, undersocializing the dog SEVERELY, and offers seriously dangerous feeding advice.  What does he get for his transgressions?  TV time and several dozens of RAVE reviews on Amazon.com.  The reason Cesar's books don't get mentioned is that few people will spend the money for the books when the show is there for free.  ;O)  Same reason few of Cesar's followers know who Pat Miller, Temple Grandin, Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Brian Kilcommons or Suzanne Clothier are.

Kim March 23rd, 2009 06:01:25 PM

I wish I had a dollar for eveyone of Cesars clients that said they've tried obedience school or traditional training prior to calling Cesar...Cesar was their "last resort".   Commen sense tells me that obedience school or traditional training did not work for their particular dog.  He runs a dog psychology center, not a dog training center.  To me dog psychology for agressive dogs is like anger management for humans.   Find the underlying cause and then find a method to correct it.  Cesars expertise is figuring out what makes the dog agessive and then finding an exercise or method to redirect the dog away from that agressive behavior.  If you want your dog to jump thru hoops or stand on his head, take it to a trainer.  If you want to correct an unwanted behavior using a dogs psychological make-up, the Milan is your man.   I've been in public education for 30 years and every teacher has their own method for teaching that works for them and I've seen classrooms full of agressive dogs (unruley students) that were handled very well, it wasn't because the teacher was flipping them a treat every 2 minutes, it's because the students respected the treacher (pack leader)

Ed March 24th, 2009 09:32:03 AM

I am not at all disagreeing with you in the least about Cesar Milan. I just wonder why his show isn't more fair and balanced and doesn't depict his failures. I would really like to see that.

Greg, St. Louis. March 24th, 2009 01:49:25 PM

Cesar's show is not a work of investigative journalism; it's his show, depicting what he believes is the best way to handle behavior problems in dogs. Of course he doesn't give "equal time" to the "other side"; neither does Victoria Stilwell on It's Me or the Dog, nor did the two different trainers who did Animal Planet's Good Dog U.

All three shows reflect the belief that, if there's a failure, it's the humans who failed to follow through correctly, not the dogs that were untrainable or unsalvagable. It was less true in the first season, but from the second season on, Cesar Millan has ended every show with a follow-up on how the dogs and families were doing weeks or months after the original filming. Those follow-ups included the sad news of the euthanasia of one of the two minpins in the family that had two frustrate minpins and the wife in the family was making them crazy. The 100th episode was 100% follow-up, on many of  the cases of the previous 99 episodes, including a gathering of most of those families and their dogs. (Victoria Stilwell also does some end-of-episode follow-up, and has devoted whole shows to follow-up on a previous case.)

In general, I like VS's approach better, but it's simply not true to say that CM doesn't do follow-up or to complain that his show "isn't more fair and balanced", i.e., doesn't present the views of his critics or training practices that he disagrees with. Why should it?

Lis March 24th, 2009 02:09:46 PM

An interesting side note: I picked up a copy of the second edition of Karen Pryor`s Don`t Shoot the Dog - arguably THE book that started the clicker and PP revolution.  I couldn`t find my first edition (hopefully someone with a copy can chime in here...) but found it interesting to re-read it after all these years and find several notations as to the benefits of aversives and positive punishment in the correct circumstance and when used with proper timing and follow through - coupled with positive reinforcement, of course.  :O)

Also, an interesting quote from her book:

Dominance hierarchies and dominance disputes and testing are a fundamental characteristic of all social groups, from flocks of geese to human governments.

Call it what you will... dominance theory, pack theory, flock theory (lol) - the FACT is that these animals have social rituals.  Denying them simply because the words are politically charged does not make your argument a valid one.

Lis: I agree with your assessment of Cesars follow up shows.  His seasons 2+ have really gone back to not only look back on wonderful success stories, but to visit with failures, and also with difficult dogs who remain works in progress.

As for the comment that trainers are too quick to blame the behaviour of the dog on the human rather than the training method, I find that trainers are also sometimes too quick to blame the previous trainer rather than the human... there was one dog on Cesars show in particular, who would work wonderfully while under Cesars control, but behaved poorly while with its owner.  After several months, the owner had made some progress, but the dog still required a muzzle to leave the house safely.  It was obvious to even the most casual observer (and the owner herself) that the problem lie UP the leash in this particular case.  Now, I am certainly not saying that the problem can not, or does not (even on a regular basis) lie with the method) but I do get irritated at our subculture`s fast acting fingers - pointing in the direction of every other trainer who does not agree with his or her methods in their entirety.

Kim March 24th, 2009 11:04:06 PM

I agree and disagree with many of these comments.  However I am literally trying everything I can to assist my dog in being a "good" dog.

Our issues are similar to a hard dog or aggressive dog.  He will bite you if you try to take something out of his mouth that he can't have.  He will get aggressive if you try to tell him no and stand over him.  He nips at your ankles if you do not greet him when you come home.  Some techniques have worked some have not.

True we lack consistency with our training of our pets.  I have learned so much patience with Sunny.  At the same time much frustration.  My partner can't stand him because of his behavior issues.  She would like nothing more than to be rid of him.  For the most part he is a good dog.  He behaves  well with other dogs, he loves kids and does not hurt them.  His aggression is all about telling him he can't have or can't do something.  He loves to play fetch tug of war and the general doggy things and does not get overly aggressive when he plays.  I will try anything I can to keep him.  I need some good sound advice.  I have found that the reward training only works if he's hungry.  Or really likes the treat you give him.  The good positive feedback like telling good boy when he does something right works well too.  I have pulled techniques from every dog "pro" I can find.  Maybe I need more consistency.  I think I told the whole story.  Would somebody please give me some pointers?

help. 

jan March 25th, 2009 01:30:24 PM

Due to the admitted lack of consistency on your part, I would start off with a NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) program for Sunny.

Personally, I would not be feeding this dog out of a bowl, period.  ALL food should come from YOUR hand, in response to correct compliance.  Don't worry - if the first few days are rough, a hungry dog is not cruel - it's merely motivation to perform better.  Not to say that I advocate intentionally starving dogs to elicit better behaviour, but rather the dog here is in charge of whether or not the food is forthcoming.

If the dog is biting you when you are removing things from his mouth... stop!  Try to prevent him from obtaining "illegal" items in the first place, and if he does obtain them, swap them out for a HIGH value reward.  A chunk of cheese, a piece of sausage, something he can not resist.  Also, be prepared to follow it up by providing him with an appropriate toy in exchange, and then praise him like crazy.  Eventually, you will have a dog who not only "drops" on command, but who will actually bring you stolen items to barter for treats.  Not an ideal situation, but far better than the alternative.  Eventually you can phase out the food rewards, and simply provide him with stuffed kongs instead.  Of course, stuffed kongs in the first place may help to alleviate the thievery to begin with.

As for the ankle biting when you get home, the dog should be kenneled or sequestered to one room of the house.  He should be then taken directly outside (no greeting) to do his business, and remain on lead inside so that his negative behaviour can be corrected.  He should be expected not only to sit, but to lie down in this situation in order to be greeted.  If he will roll over ON HIS OWN for a belly rub, even better.  Eventually, he should begin to provide his belly upon your return home - although even if he is eventually provided with free reign of the house again, I would still gate off the front entryway to block the behaviour and protect anyone who may be coming home with you.

Of course, this is one of many possible suggestions of dealing with this behaviour.  Myself, personally, I may be a bit more aversive in training this dog - however, given the fact that this dog has shown a clear willingness to put teeth on skin, I do NOT recommend anything more than mild aversives unless at the handn of a true professional (please ask for references and view them handling other dogs - and specifically ask to speak with past clients who have dominant aggressive dogs.)

Incidentally, what breed, age, sex, status (altered/intact) is this dog, and what is his past (ie where did he come from?).  Also, where are you located, perhaps there is someone on the board who can recommend a trainer/behaviourist in your area.

Finally, your significant other needs to get on board - FAST.  The negative energy coming off of her is making the dog feel insecure, which is furthering the dog's internal need for dominance/control over what he perceives as a volatile situation.  In other words, she's making a bad situation worse.  I'm not saying she has to accept his bad behaviour, but it's important that the dog know that the family is a coherant pack that will stick together - that there is a firm pack leader and all is under control.  And for all intensive purposes - DO NOT fight in front of the dog - particularly ABOUT the dog.  It gives the impression of instability - true leaders do not lose their cool - at least not in the way we crazy humans do.  If you want to have an argument about the dog, put the dog in the backyard, or take yourselves for a sit in the car.  You'll be surprised to find that the lack of the dog's presence will actually tone down the argument as well.  ;O)  Trust me... my hubby does not always have the acceptance that I do for "imperfect" dogs.  He's great with them, and he handles them as instructed - but they know he doesn't have the "chops" necesary to really get the upper hand and so they walk on him a bit.  It's taken a while, but he's finally understood that the issue is partly HIS fault, and things are improving.  :O)

Keep your chin up, and get a WELL-SCREENED professional in as soon as possible.

Kim March 25th, 2009 04:57:38 PM

Thanks so much for the helpful advice.  I most certainly will do that.  You are right about the removing things.  that has worked before and also my partner needs to stop being so negative.  I will work on her about that.  He's a lassa mix with shitzu.   he's almost two years old and has been fixed. basically mix breed.  I will carry with me things he values to get him off of the illegal items when he gets a hold of one.  we live in a apt complex and sometimes he gets hold of wrappers before i catch him.  he's really good when i tell him uh uh not for you.  just on occasion he gets unruly.  I have to get my partner on board.  she's a hard head sometimes.  I will learn to be more consistent.  We went to the basic training class and did well.  Guess it's time for another more specific class.  Oh I live in vegas.  I watched alot of cesar and victoria today.

I just can't afford classes yet.  But I watched most of the same skills being taught by them to get the dogs attention and re direct the behaviour.  

Thanks alot Kim.  I appreciate you taking the time out for me. whoop gotta go to work.  :)

jan March 25th, 2009 08:50:02 PM

I have to disagree with your adverse opinions in regards to Cesars methods. I have experienced an un-expected first hand lesson just a few weeks ago. 3 agressive stray dogs entered my garden, when they saw me they charged at me barking and snarling. The leader of that pack was getting closer and the first thing that come to mind was Cesars words - to stay calm. I stood my ground and foccused at this dog verberly abusing me, jumping up towards my face trying to bite me. I kept eye contact and continued to remain calm. The leader got confused and left my garden on her own. Needless to say I notified the athoritys including the police. I'm sure they caught up with the dogs and dealt with them because I haven't seen them around her since. But my point is, it could have been my 3 yr old who had gone out the garden that day. She wouldn't have stood a chance against one of them let alone 3. Cesars teachings overwhelmed me like a pocession! I had to make myself calm or else die! I (((KNOW))) his methods are the right methods. He found a way to make contact with a dogs brain, and even me - someone who has no contact with dogs pulled off this exercise with no prior warning.

Lynnette March 27th, 2009 09:17:06 AM

It has taken me a few days to get back here, but I did want to reply to Kim.

I understand that the type of dogs he sees are ones who have been ruined by receiving nothing BUT affection, but to me, that doesn't justify his position that dogs - across the board - should not be shown ANY affection until certain specified times and places. It seems immensely weird to me to never show affection spontaneously. And the idea that new dogs should not be shown ANY affection for the first few weeks they are in the new home just boggles the mind.

And I do apologize for the misquote. I quoted him say saying "love" where he actually said "affection." However, I'm not sure why you say there is a big difference for these purposes. The word affection simply means a feeling of fondness, a more moderate feeling than love. I assume that what he is (and you are) saying is not that you should love your dog less, but that you should demonstrate that love less. If I'm not mistaken, he and you are using the term affection to mean an outward display of the emotion (although the dictionary would disagree with this usage). But these semantics don't change my argument in the slightest.

I don't think I misunderstand, as you say. I just am using the word "submit" differently from you. I don't call a dog being friendly to another dog as submitting to that dog. Why do we have to put labels such a "submit" or "avoid" on everything? In humans, too, I can see a similar type of dynamic, but we don't always go around labeling humans as "submitting" or "avoiding."

We do definitely disagree on the sniffing. As I said, I buy the idea that sniffing is a natural, healthy behavior that dogs should not be prevented from doing. I also find it interesting that Millan is constantly talking about how we should allow dogs to be dogs, but then completely disregards it when it comes to something he doesn't want, like sniffing. And if your dogs are not allowed to sniff on their walks, are they also not allowed to relieve themselves? And if not, where do they do so? And if so, peeing and pooping without sniffing is quite a trick. And you say that your dogs are allowed to run and frolic when they get to their destination, but my dogs, and most dogs I walk (I have a pet sitting business) don't have a final destination except for back home. We're not walking TO someplace, we're just taking a walk. So the only time they get to sniff is on the walk. And by the way, does their final destination not also have dog urine and feces to spread diseases and parasites?

You choose to not cuddle your dogs in the morning, and that is your choice. I choose to cuddle mine. But to Millan, it isn't a choice, it is a rule. Don't show any affection to your dog until after the walk and the food and then show a LITTLE. I find that sad. And you say that your way, the dogs know your [show of] affection means something. Well, pardon me, but my dogs know my show of affection means something too. It means I love them. And then you say you don't have to "smother her with touches." I also find it interesting that people who are arguing for methods such as Millan's always seem to make those who disagree out to be extreme coddlers. Just because someone doesn't follow Millan's ways, that doesn't mean they "smother" their dogs. Please don't distort things to make people who show their dogs affection seem like people who coddle their dogs and dress them up and hug and kiss them every time they have a "boo boo." There is a middle ground, you know.

And you say I shouldn't speak for dogs because I'm not a dog. But doesn't this seem just a tad silly? I mean you, too, are speaking for dogs (I think I am safe in assuming you yourself are not a dog).

There is, at least, something we do agree on. I once, years ago, read a training book by Paul Loeb. I think I actually threw it in the trash.

Tina Clark March 27th, 2009 03:15:28 PM

All I can say is that if it weren't for watching Cesar Milan's shows, and gaining a better understanding that an aggressive dog is a very unhappy dog, we would have had to have our beloved mini-dachshund put down. All it took was for me to change my frame of mind, become the dog's leader, and never give in, and her entire personality changed. Before that, we were all scared of her because she would become vicious, and therefore we let her have her way. After watching his shows, I knew it was we that were enabling her to continue with that behavior, and since we really did love her, I would have to stick to my guns and show her (always with great love and patience, never cruelty) that I was the boss. He was right! It was my frame of mind all along she was reading. Once she realized my frame of mind had changed and I wasn't going to back down, she became an entirely different dog! And never once did I ever feel I had to resort to any kind of physical intimidation. His method really can work! I believe the biggest factor in our success is exactly the same as in successful child-rearing - UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!!!!!

Cheryl March 27th, 2009 03:50:12 PM

Kim writes of Semonyova's "new never-to-be-published book".

It will be published next month, so that shows how much YOU know.

 

http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/100silliest.html

 

Artemis Rhodes March 27th, 2009 07:55:42 PM

I couldn’t come back to this board for a while and was surprised to see the response I’ve received. Last paragraph in my comment “Only reason I can think of why the Vet community is attacking Cesar is Cesar would bring down the number of euthanasia of ultra aggressive dogs and prescriptions to mentally unbalanced dogs. It will be less income for vets community. So sad.” was a plain simple SARCASM. It is obvious if you read from the top of the paragraph. (If you need clarification, I don’t hate vets and I do bring my dog to my trusting vet for check ups and holistic therapies. My doctor would never suggest euthanasia as an option of remedy for aggression. )

Jennifer: Dr. Yin’s assumption from one specific show clip is very partial. It is applicable to your definition of “his techniques” as well.  Cesar uses whatever works to the particular dog he is working on. He doesn’t promote hitting or hurting dogs in any manners. He uses treats very often. He gives hugs and kisses very often when the dog is psychologically balanced. Not only the show disclaimer says “consult professionals” but also he had brought a clicker trainer, a herding trainer and a gun dog pointing retriever trainer just a few to mention on his show and showcases many different exercises that promote healthy mental stimulations. So, what exactly do you mean by “his techniques” that you have to so adamantly oppose? Educating many dog owners that dogs are dogs and dogs are not human babies – do you disagree with this? Before blaming dog, reflecting yourself and approaching your dog in calm and balanced demeanor is criminally wrongdoing in your eyes?

I wrote last paragraph in an ultra sarcastic way because it doesn’t make any sense to attack Cesar If any reasonable and open-minded person who learned fully what Cesar Millan has been advocating. I don’t get it at all why vet community has to attack Cesar and cross out his face on the picture. It is like a high school locker room bulling. I think it is a very sad behavior by respectable doctors. Read original blog one more time. It really is nothing to do with Cesar’s method. I was hoping after reading my first comment, the owner of this blog would be ashamed of what he/she had done and at least remove the X. Now I know that my expectation was too high.

Naoko March 28th, 2009 02:50:20 PM

Contrary to what you said about the good of positive, non-aggrasive way of dog training, you yourself, are acting aggressive and attack others only because they are not using your method.

I've never heard of Cesar Millan complaining or your "positive-only" method before. Do you really think that it is because it is perfect?? No! Far from that.

When you said that, in The Dog Whisperer, some results might be temporary and the owners might face the same problems again after a few weeks or months, what about yours? Is it work for EVERY dog and ALWAYS last forever? I guess not. I don't think his way works 100%, but neither yours.

I guess while aggressive dogs should be trained, aggressive people, even highly educated ones, should train themselves not to attack others too.

Just look at the mirror and correct yourselfe first, please.

(I'm not the native Eng speaker so the grammar might be bad, sorry about that.)

 

Pui March 30th, 2009 12:29:49 AM

There are obviously plenty of people who take offense at Cesar's methods in 'rehabilitating' dogs and do not feel that his methods are humane for the dog.  However, I would like to ask, is it more humane to have an out of control dog, one who cannot stop barking, lunges at people, goes crazy when you have company, is aggressive, wants to bite, won't let people or owners get near them or their toys or food, urinates in the house, chases cars/animals/people, and ultimately the owners/family has to get rid of the dog which is probably going to a rescue shelter and then the dog has to go from owner to owner or worse yet, has to be put down?  I don't know that Cesar's methods are necessary or needed for all dogs, but obviously in dogs where they are out of control, his methods DO work, and the end result seems to be a happier and more adjusted dog and a happier home life with its humans...which I would think is the most humane outcome one could wish for.   

Anne March 31st, 2009 03:59:19 PM

People are the problem with dogs. The stupid way people treat dogs like toys or humans causes their abberant behavior, for the most part.

I have watched many episodes of Cesar's show, and this message is so CRYSTAL CLEAR I have to wonder why this thread is so long. Cesar is a genius in that he teaches people, and lets the real dog emerge once the stupid humans get out of the way.

 

Phil April 10th, 2009 08:11:51 PM

He has a TV show and no one's ever heard of you.

I understand your petty little issues.

Tim Kozusko April 10th, 2009 11:37:29 PM

I always receive a high percentage of vet referrals for dogs with aggression problems.  I am a positive trainer, using only positive reinforcement and negative punishment (the removal of something the dog values/desires and will work for, typically attention, games, freedom, toys, food).  My approach of desensitisation and counterconditioning  for behaviour modification, using both classical and operant conditioning does most definitely take longer than dominance based approaches. However the results are you have a dog whose confidence has been improved, trust has been built up between canine and human, and you have a dog that will actually interact with humans/canines, rather than just be shut down to them or avoid them.

http://twitter.com/fun4fido

Angela April 12th, 2009 04:03:19 AM

Unbleivable amount of crap in this thread, REALLY,,, its dogs were talking about here and theres far too many people out there that should NOT be allowed to own one,,, i hate the jealousy of humans who cannot accept anothers success (Cesar Millan) like it or not this guy knows dogs but i dont need to see Cesar Millan to know what my dog needs to live in human society. They need discipline and they need to know who is boss, this way they have a happy life and not a lethal injection. My fourth Golden retriever is as well balanced and well behaved as my others were simply because he knows hes living in MY house. Seems to me that a lot of humans cant control their own kids (far more intelligent than dogs ;)  )  so what can they do with an animal that if they went back to wild status would be hunting US.  they are dogs people they need to be treated as dogs not fluffy little toys that one can dye pink to go with the furniture. Cesar is bang on right, YOU HAVE TO BE TOP DOG hmmm i wonder where that expression came from LMAO. 

 

 LEAVE CESAR MILLAN ALONE.

David the DOG owner May 11th, 2009 04:26:58 PM

Picky, picky, picky.  Cesar has done a lot of great work, the show is entertaining, we have all learned a lot and at least become aware that our dogs should be exercised, disciplined, and loved.  With his methods and those of Victoria Stillwell, of the show "It's Me or the Dog", whose training methods are more reward oriented, you can pick and choose which training methods are best suited for you and your dog.  Cesar does not abuse dogs anymore than their own doggy mothers or playmates do.  And if people have red zone dogs, they certainly should be intelligent enough to get  professional help like the show states.  I think people are jealous of Cesar's popularity.  And like to criticize instead of point out the good he has taught us all about dogs being dogs, not being left alone in a yard all day and expected to act like little angels when we get home.

Shirl L. May 14th, 2009 05:49:18 PM

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amal_ May 22nd, 2009 09:15:27 AM

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bobby May 29th, 2009 06:22:39 PM

 

Hello, I'm a positive "treat training" trainer and I find that Cesar's methods are both good, and bad. Like what a lot of people have pointed out, I have never seen Cesar use any violence with his dogs. BUT prong collars, choke chains, and the such are NOT needed. If you have to choke your dog for them to listen to you, or poke at him with a prong collar then clearly your "calm assertive energy" isn't really working. It's the collars that are doing the work. People fail to look at the details in Cesar's training, that he isn't doing EVERYTHING with his energy and being a "pack leader." Also my take on the pack leader concept is that I find it completely, and totally incorrect.

Point one, is that dogs are not wolves. Dogs are far more domesticated then a wolf and even though they are CLOSE to the same species they really are not any longer. Dogs do not hunt, roam freely with other animals of it's kind (of course speaking of a dog with a home, not a stray), and don't have the same strong social ranking as a wolf pack does. A dog doesn't need one. Point two, true dominance, even in wolves, comes from the owner of the resources. Not the person who is bossy, and controlling. Science has put that one to rest. Of course with dogs you MUST be calm and assertive, I don't know what made people think any differently. Of course you can't be emotional with an animal, it's an animal, they can read your body language and posture, but keep in mind they can't read your mind. You are not a dog, and don't have the same body structure as a dog, so it is impossible to speak EXACTLY the same way. Also, Though Dogs are not children, they are also not wolves.So when people say that reward based training doesn't work with aggressive dogs, I find it just a stubborn comment. I have worked with VERY aggressive dogs, taking on my own fair share of bites, being growled at, and the works....And I fixed it with all positive training and no punishment or bossing around.

Rewards make an experience positive, it helps you control the surroundings and show the dog that what they are fearful of (in most cases the root of aggression) can give them something good. I also am very patient, and persistent, and when a dog is no longer getting what they want from their offensive aggression they start thinking. That's what makes treat training great, it makes a dog work and think for it's rewards. Also, with the treat arguments, they are used for motivation, and rewards don't HAVE to be treats every single time. There are things called life rewards which are walks, praise, play time, chew toys, food, and social interaction. You should ALWAYS have control over those resources no matter what training style you like better. That is true dominance, controlling the food, controlling your dogs overall life as a dog. Not bossing them around and trying to control the actual dog with a choke chain. I also liked the point that someone made that more men seem to be swayed to take Cesar's side, I find that very true. Maybe a little opinionated, but it does seem to be more attractive to men.

Either way, I would like to finish with I watch The Dog Whisper, and I also watch It's me or the Dog, and both styles of training seem to have it's ups and downs and work best if actually paired. I grew up using a style like Cesars and have been taught to teach clicker training. I use both, I use Cesar's quick calm assertiveness when correcting (I only use a soft verbal correction word paired with some consistence patience) and the clicker training with treats (Seems to be working fine for me!). Look at police dogs, what kind of training do you think they use? Clicker training. <3

 

Angel May 30th, 2009 02:59:29 AM

I see dog owners frantically clicking at their dogs as if the clicker were a remote control and I know how much damage the pseudo behaviorists are doing. There is a disturbing trend now for these overnight dog-trainers with their little clickers and their certifications from some organization of other pseudo behaviorists to attack Cesar Milan. I can see why. They were riding high in the dog training world for 10-15 years and Cesar comes along out of nowhere and literally steals the show. Why? Because he can do what they can't do, and they can't even begin to do what he does.

I've been working with dogs for 40 years and I have a graduate degree in behavioral psychology. I am not an anti-behaviorist by any means. I know what works and what it works for. It is very valuable but it brings nothing to the table in terms of understanding what a dog really is and how they see the world. Plaus, these clicker trainers don't begin to understand learning theory anyway. Ask one of them what a variable schedule of reinforcement is for and watch the blank stare.

Cesar is for people who want to really understand and live with their dogs. The clicker is for those who really do want a remote control dog without an ounce of his primal self left intact.

Shiloh May 31st, 2009 03:38:48 PM

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asdf June 1st, 2009 02:59:23 AM

Cesar would NEVER bite ANY dog...PERIOD

your dumbass relative got what he deserved

 

formal trainers and therapist hate Cesar's methods because they work and are FREE for anyone who wants to learn them.

They are based on common sense, mutual respect and understanding dog nature and balance. You are portraying cesar to be something he is not and its not fair.

Do you even watch the show?

bullshit June 3rd, 2009 07:44:35 PM

I think Cesar Milan would agree 100% with the quote:

"Nationwide, the number-one reason why dog owners take their dog to a veterinary behaviorist is to manage aggressive behavior. Our study demonstrated that many confrontational training methods, whether staring down dogs, striking them, or intimidating them with physical manipulation, do little to correct improper behavior and can elicit aggressive responses."

 

Cesar Milan first says you must exercise the dog every day, otherwise they get bored and start taking it out on chewing things or other odd behavior.  Hmmm, sounds like confrontational training?  Training the dog to know who is the pack leader is confrontational?  If you push a dog into becoming the pack leader and they don't want to, they then get nervous and bite. 

The dogs that have the intense behavior you identified are taken to Cesar's dog center, and the "pack" takes care of the dog.  Is this confrontational?  Yes to the dog it is, but this isn't a human staring down the dog...I have never seen this.

 

Like the others, not sure if you watch the show.  I would say that there are special cases that requires unique discipline, but that is like 1% of the cases....

 

do some more homework...

GB June 8th, 2009 09:56:24 AM

Cesar Milan is a gifted dog trainer. however I don't think his methods should be replicated by other people. His techniques are too dangerous for the general public to implement themselves, without the help of  an expert. Cesar clearly has years of experience and is skilled in reading dog body langauge. In training dogs TIMING IS EVERYTHING. Cesar is often able to correct a behaviour at exactly the right time, a skill beyond the average person. Also, I've noticed he tends to use punishment and confrontation for anxiety/fear- based aggression, a technique which is not indicated or effective for this type of aggression. Using punishment for fear aggression will  often only result in displacement of aggression and does not really address the underlying problem. Systematic desensitization and counter conditiong would be better in these cases (under the supervision of a certified behaviourist).

I personally have never seen him hick, punch or bite a dog, although i was dismayed to hear that he used an electric shock collar in one case. Punishment can cause an aggressive dog to become even more aggressive. people with aggressive dogs should defineitly seek professional help rather than try and modify the behviour themselves. Cesar certainly seems to have a very calm, assertive energy about him, which I aggree that dogs seem to pick up on, this could be why they are generally better behaved with him. HOwever telling someone to adopt a calm, assertive state of mind is easier said than done! I didn't actually realise that veterinary behaviourists hated cesar milan, most of the ones i have spoken to acknowledge that he has some good points- such as NOT treating your dogs like kids, emphasising the importance of exercise etc.

BTW- if using food rewards: these should be taken out of your dogs daily food. So, if you give treats as part of a training regime, don't feed your dog as much at meals (it should get the same amount of calories each day). Also, the use of choke chains is potentially very dangerous as many people do not put it on properly, with the result of continually choking the poor animal. And on a side point, they are NOT a substitue for a real collar and dogs should never be left unsupervised whilst wearing one.

clover June 12th, 2009 09:03:37 PM

This whole attack on vets is ridiculous, NO vets actually enjoy euthanizing an animal and they are certainly not in it for the money| Mosts vets become vets because they love animals and enjoy problem solving.

If vets were worried about losing money to Cesar, surely they would ciriticize every trainer who is not a registred veterinary behaviourist. Most vets who object in some way to Cesar do so only out of concern for the animals and the owners of the animals.

I personally find it very offensive and worrying that some people seem to think that vets are just in it for the money and are always quick to euthanize animals.

zoe June 12th, 2009 10:09:00 PM

search Google : http://www.google.com/search?q=cesar+millan+putz&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

Bob June 16th, 2009 01:02:00 AM

liz (pit bull owner) u are the fruit cake!

dogs are dogs, they are the same species and if u cant control pitbulls, dont get one idiot! a bit jealous i think coz u cant control ur dogs obviously!

do u not know the difference between calm and aggressive?

 

morons like u and tina (who just wants to love!!!!) r whats going to keep our understanding of dogs and what they need in the dark ages.

cesar not once does anything agrressive. hes just showing them thier place in the pack.

grow up and open ur mind u pathetic humans!

 

as for vets, i think ill leave the worm shots up to them, coz that is what there profession is not dog behaviour

takezo June 16th, 2009 02:28:48 AM

I did not read all of the responses, but I want to comment on something that I saw often.  Cesar does - Hit (nabbing the dog with fingers is not any better than an open hand smack), kick- (using his foot to "snap the dog out of it" is still a kick), and perform Alpha rolls (sometimes even as the dog turns blue from lack of oxygen). If you are familiar with animal behavior at all, you would see the fear he instills in dogs.  Even his own Daddy has shown fear signals.  I have also seen Daddy growl at him over food in the background of his talking.  I have very calm & well behaved (blue ribbon obedience competition and therapy dog certified) dogs.  I do not want my dogs to listen out of fear and learned helplessness.  It is so much better to teach "what to do" instead of teaching "what not to do".  I have seen a person "using Cesar's way" as she explained to me - yes hitting & kicking her dog. I am not the only one that sees his actions as doing just that.  If you think that "man's best friend" should behave because of fear and intimidation then by all means continue with his praise, but if you are interested in a loving, trusting, and joint (where both involved are enjoying the interaction), than I suggest looking into the more humane ways of training...     I have done it both ways, seen first hand the "baggage" related to correctional type training and been able to change the emotional state and behavior caused by that type training. I will tell you both my dogs & me are enjoying the idea of "together" instead of "because I am alpha & said so".  Their "obedience" is better than ever and so is our relationship!

Lisa T, vet tech June 20th, 2009 02:37:07 PM

Wow. This is really hot!

First, I've never seen Cesar Millan ( yes the only dog owner on the planet who hasn't). Second, I was totally a cat person until I got around Border Collies and Aussies--then I was enchanted. Third, I didn't know how to do formal dog training. Fourth, EVERYBODY tells me how good Millan is. (i turned off the TV due to financial distress so I can't check him out now) Fifth, I have now had four absolutely wonderful dogs, and a fifth on the way, all of whom taught me things. With each dog I learned more & finally did learn some obedience & did dog agility w/two dogs. I've observed and heard the rationales of many trainers. My conclusion is at this point that short of dire life-threatening emergency dogs should never be hit, have prong collars, etc. I've never had a bad problem with any of my dogs and I think it's in the picking, plus luck. I chose dogs who were suited to my temperament & vice versa. Brilliant dogs--otherwise it's boring.

I was taught to use choke collars and the whole bit but discovered it was all nonsense and could harm the dog. I only use aversives (like rattling a can of pennies) when there is a real threat--like teaching my dog about toads. Using any type of reinforcement requires quick and accurate timing. Dogs don't like grey areas in commands--they get insecure. The most important thing is the bond between dog and human. One time I tried the Monks putting a dog on the floor to show dominance--the dog looked at me like OK..I'll go along--and I felt really stupid. This was a supposedly "hard" Aussie that I spent hours upon hours training "positively" and when I got away from everyone else's advice everything fell into place. He was an absolute prince, smart, etc. and I just tried to give him enough to do so he could develop his talents--what a partnership!

I've also heard some trainers who take the dogs who are going to be euthanised if they don't behave. There's always a history..the dog never became that way on his own.

Finally, recent research--well done--has demonstrated that dogs possess the same basic 5 personality traits of humans! Also, when separate studies concerning dog attachment with their humans was done it turned out that dogs exhibited precisely the same attachment behaviors as human children!

We used to think it was OK to hit children to keep them in line too...

 

 

 

 

SH June 20th, 2009 11:04:20 PM

I realize that this comment is on a very outdated and dead post and will most likely never be read, but I just finished reading all the comments after somehow stumbling on this post after watching episodes of the Dog Whisperer for the first time (sorry, I don't watch much TV), and I became very intrigued by the subject matter in it. I have nothing to say about Cesar Millan or PP vs. Correction training because I understand that I, for lack of identifying a less-colorful way of phrasing it, "know jack shit" about dog training and what does and doesn't work.

I was, however, intrigued by discussion of taxodermy, specifically the construction of phylogenetic trees and evolutionary lineage (for those who prefer layman's terms, as I often do, the study of what evolves from what and when) as it relates to dogs and wolves. I found particularly disturbing one poster's quote of a source and back-and-forth discussion consisting that "dogs aren't evolved from wolves" implying that what we learn from wolves isn't valid to dogs.

However, based on what I know about phylogeny, evolution (from classes and professors), and personal research done on dogs and wolves for my thesis (I am going to be a senior at Case Western Reserve University in the fall of '09) on the ancestory and evolution of dogs, I have to point out that while this is absolutely technically correct, the conclusions that are drawn from it are often not correct and, in the case of these posts, are not correct.

The dog (canis lupus familiaris) is a subspecies of the grey wolf, canis lupus. They can interbreed and produce fertile wolfdog hybrids. This is not to say that the modern day dog is descended from the modern day wolf, but lends very strong support to a very recent evolutionary divergence between what was then canis lupus and what developed into canis lupus familiaris and today's modern canis lupus. As one poster already stated, dogs and wolves are 99.8% genetically similar -- Over the course of their evolutionary period they have only managed to accumulate a .2% genetic difference that still allows them to breed, whereas when comparing humans and what is most widely considered their closest related living relative, the chimpanzee, they have accumulated at 1.6% genetic difference that does not allow for interbreeding to occur (unlike the liger, or the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger, which can be born but is almost always sterile except in a few rare, documented cases where the liger could carry offspring to term). 

The point here is that the dog and the wolf are not seperate species. The dog is a subspecies of the wolf, and the modern day wolf is very closely related to their common ancestor (most likely only between 3,000 and 5,000 years since the divergence took place) with the dog doing the most divergence from the wolf.

Basically, what that semi-longwinded bit of scientific theory and speculation (not from me, but from researches in the field -- dog ancestry is still highly debatable and not much is known about the evolution of the dog and the wolf to truly say for sure) tells us that we can ABSOLUTELY compare our findings of research behavior done on grey wolves to the domesticated dog, because there are most likely a multitude of behaviors that have not yet been evolved significantly away from each other.

Barring all this, several scientific studies are done with chimpanzees that end up helping us learn not only about primitive mankind, but also modern mankind. Chimpanzees and humans are separate species. Dogs are not a species separate from the wolf -- they are a subspecies. Comparing the two, then, is relevant.

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Yea Cesar is married and has sons. He is pretty 'metro' looking most of the time, and his positive, light hearted way of saying things may sound 'fruity' at times, but he is clearly not a 'fruitcake'. I think you should be a little more respectful towards people with different sexual orientations anyway.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... July 15th, 2009 02:01:01 PM

The things Cesar Millan demonstrates in every show that really work are shortening a leash, so the dog walks behind or beside the human, calm energy and touching with the fingers (which is more massage than bite.)  Dogs do this with their teeth on each other in greeting.  Mother dogs carry puppies by the scruff of the neck.  Food as a constant reward is wrong, since the behavoir should be on command, rather than reward.

Growling and/or biting a dog are just plain stupid.  We are not dogs, but we have to be the leader in our own homes - a multi-species home. Kicking a dog, unless you are being attacked, is cruelty.

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Your article is all well and good, although it doesn't really talk about Cesar Millan AT ALL except for to mention his name and then say enter the dark side of his techniques.

Here's the bottom line guys. Cesar has a pack of 30-40 healthy dogs that he runs with every day, all the time, people see him do it when they're his clients, people see him do it on the show, and he has WAY too much success for anything you're saying to have really any weight, especially since you are not really even talking about the methods he uses.

You talk about striking and staring down dogs. Please, Cesar never strikes any dog and I believe he doesn't stare them down either. The rule "no talk, no touch, no eye contact" for aggressive, anxious, fearful dogs pretty much sums that up.

In fact when one knows full well Cesar's methods, you come off sounding like someone who ignorantly posted a critique of something you don't understand at all. Which is many often times the case.

Of course, I'm sure people who have no clue will come here and because you use the weight of the phrase "veterinary behaviorist experts" and the academia credentials that come along with that, they will believe you, and not even look into Cesar's methods, which could be your intentions in the first place (maybe not).

I personally have seen his methods work and I am no way an expert. Yes, they are temporary because NOTHING IS PERMANENT. You need to work every day with your dog, if you don't have the time or can't you shouldn't own a dog.

That's the problem with modern society, everything is based on convenience and people expect if you just pay some dog training school $2000 and then send your dog off without barely lifting a finger that you will get a perfectly balanced dog back and never have to work with your dog or for your dog. I am sure many people would actually be outraged at the DOG TRAINING FACILITY if this does not happen. This is a problem that is driving us into the brink of oblivion but that is something for a completely separate article :)

Alex Quintana September 15th, 2009 08:26:32 AM

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I'm sorry honey but those people you speak of "who live in the real world" are living in the Matrix, not the real world. The real world is the one of NATURE that Cesar lives in. Every once in a while nature comes back to remind us of this (Hurricane Katrina, The Tsunami) but all 99.9% of people do is think of it as a natural disaster and once it's over move on with their lives. The tsunami did not take the lives of animals and people who understood nature, but to most people that's all superstition and fairy tales.

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The story in the beginning of the article is hilarious in the sense that it is being used as an example of the problems of Cesar and his "ilk". Your relative is evidence that no matter what advice is given, you cant fix stupid.

 

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The logical fallacy presented is equivocation of the term "feral" with" ownerless".

The village dogs were never removed from the environment, and of course, never left the "meal ticket", thus never did revert properly.

When dogs are left without the human meal ticket, they do change in reproductive cyles, do not mate easily with domestic dogs, and show most other behaviours as returning to wolf-like, NOT village dog-like.

As to vets: I am concerned. Increasingly, many vets seem most intent on pushing clearly inferior feed on customers , by using fear tactics.

One need  only read the label properly to see this: high in grains, a cheap replacement for meat -  check Champion website, as just one example, to see how a really well made dog food is produced, and compare to what this vet sells. Vet  products were recalled over melamine..Vet products contain cheap ingredients via China, produced with little regard for your pet's well being.

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If you're going to recommend Herron et al.'s study as "proof" that confrontational dog training methods are dangerous and ineffective, I suggest you read my critique on their paper:

http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/that-dogma-wont-hunt/

 

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