Well, Dr. Patty - there is a great tradition of veterinary assistance and abettin in just about every realm of human use and abuse of animals - war (horses), animal research, factory farming, feedlots... Temple Grandin (not a vet, but pretty close) is the example they are following in providing a "good death". These vets are simply following the dictates that seek to elevate the profession into places where it can have influence on how things are done. I don't agree, by the way - but on the other hand, what can you expect: to date, vets haven't exactly been well-versed in ethics or philosophy, so we tend to have a hard time working out these issues in a way that considers the big picture of animal use, abuse and suffering. As a Canadian vet, I'm saddened, but not surprised by their actions. And I'm still waiting for U.S. vets to take a stand against Sarah Palin's war on wildlife: wolves (shooting them from the air, gassing cubs in dens); belugas; bears... Not to point fingers, but we have to look at this from the big picture (i.e. the seal cubs are hardly an isolated case of wildlife abuse). Thanks for posting on this!

brebis noire March 21st, 2009 08:55:55 AM

A two week clinic ? It took two weeks to cover just skull crushing ?  only skull crushing ?  that's bizarre...

In cases of wildlife population control to maintain balance in a particular ecosystem I can understand shooting wolves from the air (if population control  IS the case ) or other more "humane" methods.  A bullet seems more humane than a trap ?  I guess I can see Vet's stepping in to help invent or teach methods in those cases but doesn't the Dept. of Fish and Wildlife have their own vet's to cover this sort of thing ? and doesn't canada have an equiv. to Fish and Wildlife?

I am not familiar with the Canadian seal situation. I know in Seattle we have seal problems affecting the salmon population and heated debate on how to handle it.  I of course want the Salmon population to recover but I am not sure I would want seals to have their skulls crushed ! Yikes ! 

I don't think from yourpost that the Canada seal hunting has anything to do with population control ? I am hoping there is more to the story and the vet's had additional motives ?

LC March 21st, 2009 10:23:44 AM

did we really need to know this?

heff March 21st, 2009 10:29:37 AM

I have absolutely no problem with the seal hunt as long as the animals are killed quickly.  This is wildlife we are talking about, and just because they are cute and fluffy everyone gets all up in arms.  Well guess what, we cook lobster while they are still alive, imagine what that feels like, have you never eaten lobster??   This blog post is kind of disturbing in that there are many many other animals that are treated far worse and we all use them to sustain ourselves, but because they aren't pretty or cute, nobody cares.  Unless you're a vegetarian.  Take a look at the hidden video cameras at the poultry farms, or do some research on how they make "foie gras".  Again just because baby seals are "cute, fluffy, and white" people take offense.  But to recap I am not for a slow death of any living creature.  I grew up in a family that hunted deer, moose, and all other wildlife and a quick kill is what everyone aims for.  Nobody I know wants to see an animal suffer.  Except those damn lobster torturers!

Chuck March 21st, 2009 10:53:07 AM

brebis noire: True dat on our history. For that matter, so too can the human medical profession rank institutionalized abuse among its past escapades. I love that you raise Temple Grandin and industrialized animal agriculture because while this post is about the obviously disgusting practice of seal clubbing, abuse is in what we eat, too.

Yes, there's a larger issue here you so correctly point out. While abuse is arguably institutionalized in veterinary medicine, it's also clear that our profession is evolving out of that role. More of us are unwilling to practice in industrialized animal agriculture not just because...

1-the salaries suck

2-rural US is not where we want to live

3-we're a softer, more suburbanized breed of veterinarians

It's also (and one could argue, primarily) the result of the industrial animal practices and philosophies we'd have to live with. The way we treat animals in agriculture settings is more akin to how we treat seals than it is to small animal medicine. Our profession is increasingly filling up with those who adopt the small animal model and reject industrial practices. And the two approaches to medicine are becoming increasingly disparate--in fact, they're already two completely different cultures. Hence our vehemence against those among us who would support a cruel industry--even if it does mean less suffering if seals can be bludgeoned just right. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 11:02:09 AM

Chuck: This is wildlife we're talking about and many of us do try to retain an integrated view of the entire spectrum of animal cruelty--be it cute fluffies, dirty cows or debeaked chicks. Cat-attacked songbirds, puppymillers, poor-quality veterinary practitioners and plover vigilantes have all had their day(s) on Dolittler. Why object to the seals?

Oh--and you don't need to be a vegetarian to source humanely raised meats, milk and eggs. Sure, it means we eat less meat and/or pay much more for it. It may even mean we raise our own. But never forget there are plenty of us out there who do recognize the cruelty of the industrial animal machine and refuse to participate. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 11:11:16 AM

LC, the seal hunt is all about selling seal fur in foreign markets - the fur of the baby at that stage of its life has the desired texture and colour. It has nothing to do with population control, except for some ludicrous allegations that seals have done more to decimate cod stocks than overfishing. As for shooting wolves in Alaska, that is all about preserving the herds of caribou for human hunters. Another senseless practice, in other words. Every time humans intervene in "population control", other types of damage and loss of equilibrium occur. The only reason we do these things is because we can; we have the weapons and the technology - and the markets. Dr Patty - you are so right about the disparities in practice and practice culture. I earn an awful lot more as a companion animal vet than I did as a farm animal vet. The only thing that kept me in farm animal practice was the excitement of the interventions and procedures, and the instant gratification in many cases (milk fever, uterine torsions and prolapses, calving). Once that wore off I and I opened my eyes to the big (industrial) picture, the glow kinda wore off.

brebis noire March 21st, 2009 12:03:40 PM

Oh, and I have one solution to the lobster kill: If you must eat lobster, pith it before dropping it in boiling water. That means taking the sharp blade of a butcher's knife and cutting through its central nervous system. start at the back of the head with the tip and make one simple crunch than ends between the eyes. Voilá!

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 01:01:05 PM

brebis noire: Would you be interested in writing a guest post on your conversion from farm animal vet to small animal vet? I think it would be enlightening to many of us--and, yes, I'm just danged curious. (And you write well.)

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 01:03:20 PM

I like the analogy to MDs attending an execution. Regardless of the intent to promote a better end, it still implies condonement of what is happening.

The point about the disparity between small animal vets and large animal ones is well taken too. I think I just kind of stick my fingers in my ears and go "lalalalalala" when it comes to trying to justify such disparate views of animals and their role in our lives, within the context of our profession. It seems like it is getting worse over time rather than better, as companion animals become more and more valued, while farm animals move into increasingly disturbing factory farms.

I too would love to hear brebis noire's perspective on the profession!

JV at pawcurious March 21st, 2009 01:14:44 PM

For those who argue that the seals (wolves, lobsters, etc) are just "wildlife" please keep in mind that they are living, feeling creatures who experience much pain at our hands. For what? For profit and greed. Therein lies the issue for me. And, yes, I am a vegetarian and do use cruelty free cosmetics, cleaners, etc. It's not impossible - simply an attitude we choose. If only we could become a compassionate people . . . the thought of those seals being bludgeoned to death so someone can have "fur" on their coat frankly makes me sick to my stomach!

dottie March 21st, 2009 01:27:49 PM

The AMA says physicians "should not" with regard to capital punishment; however, that isn't a mandate and so physician participation goes on quietly at many (if not most) state executions.  Personally, I'd say it is mandated by "do no harm" to participate as withholding knowledge and skills can be even more harmful.  I see absolutely no difference between an MD refusing to help in a humane human death than a vet refusing to euthanize a suffering animal if the convict has requested death over a life sentence.  http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/Code_of_Med_Eth/opinion/opinion206.html

I know enough about hunters to know that most don't inflict pain and suffering without what they see as good cause.  I detest the pictures that are so often used in so many venues for their inflammatory value.  Does seal killing look awful and bloody?  Of course.  Are the pictures we're fed representative?  I doubt it.  I suspect they are the worst of the worst and fall into much the same category as the abortion pictures used by right to life groups.   There are many pictures that provoke a negative response but that should be where the questions start, not where they end.

"Bludgeoning skulls is an inexact art––and therefore a cruel practice."  Wow, that seems grossly over simplified.  If being an "inexact art" is tantamount to a "cruel practice", where does that leave any medical practitioner?  If improving the inexact art is to reduce suffering, well isn't that what every medical practitioner is attempting to do as well?  "at what cost?"  I wonder that every time my Rheumatologist lets his students "practice" on me.  On the other hand, they learned from the patients before me and those after me will benefit from the art being a little less inexact.

PJBoosinger March 21st, 2009 05:23:29 PM

PJBoosinger, bludgeoning is a cruel and inexact way to cause death because it inflicts pain but not necessary unconsciousness. You are grossly oversimplifying if you equate medical practice with euthanasia, or with slaughter for that matter. Dr Patty's point is, I believe, that the cost comes from aiding and abetting a practice that falls outside certain ethical and moral boundaries. If the seal slaughter doesn't fall outside your ethical and moral boundaries wrt to animal lives, wild or domestic, that is one thing. But not all vets are comfortable with that; some of us have a different viewpoint on what is acceptable and what is not. And it shouldn't take a vet to figure out how to "correctly" bludgeon a seal pup, imho. (Dr Patty, I have contacted you re your suggestion above. :-)

brebis noire March 21st, 2009 05:44:59 PM

brebis noire, It was Dr. K who brought up anesthesiologists and executions.  "equate medical practice with euthanasia"  Really, there's no relationship there?  "slaughter"  now there's one of those inflammatory terms.  "not all vets are comfortable with that" and clearly some are.  "it shouldn't take a vet to figure out how to "correctly" bludgeon a seal pup".  Maybe it shouldn't (actually, it didn't) but how does that change an obligation to help relieve or reduce suffering rather than standing on the sidelines criticizing while holding back information that might do just that?

"bludgeoning is a cruel and inexact way to cause death because it inflicts pain but not necessary unconsciousness"  From what I've read, bludgeoning is preferred to shooting because shooting is less exact and usually followed by bludgeoning as a result.  OK, what options would you suggest?

PJBoosinger March 21st, 2009 05:59:30 PM

PJB: None. I also disagree strongly with sport hunting and have a hard time believing the line that most hunters need the food to survive. Sure, some do, but that assertion is generally NRA-style drivel. 

That this is a cash product that comprises an industry where jobs are worth protecting, OK then, it's up to Canada. But I won't be fed the spew that clubbing constitutes humane treatment because other means are inexact. Shooting AND clubbing don't fall under the humane slaughter act--at least I don't believe so. (Perhaps at close range?)

And yes, I did pick the most bloody pic I could source for free. It's bloody--and that's the truth. Are they usually grouped like that? No. But someone was pretty proud of that shot. 

On anesthesiologists and executions: It's my understanding that the reason we use antiquated drug protocols for lethal injection is because the medical community refuses to participate. I do not doubt that there are some docs who do. But I can't believe the AMA sanctions it. Furthermore, these docs probably fly beneath the radar specifically because it is a very gray area they don't want to lose their licenses over. 

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 06:11:00 PM

"On anesthesiologists and executions: It's my understanding that the reason we use antiquated drug protocols for lethal injection is because the medical community refuses to participate. I do not doubt that there are some docs who do. But I can't believe the AMA sanctions it. Furthermore, these docs probably fly beneath the radar specifically because it is a very gray area they don't want to lose their licenses over."

Executioners, historically, wore black hoods just so they weren't identifiable in their communities (although most of them were probably known to many) because it's not something to be proud of - at least that's how I see it and how I'd like to hope that ethical people would view the occupation, whether one supports capitol punishment or not. This doesn't mean that I think executioners are bad people, per se, just that one shouldn't go around making a big deal about "Let me tell you about my job." Getting too 'in to' killing anything really should be something that no one gets a thrill out of, although, sadly, I'm sure a lot of 'bolters' and others in abattoirs do. When I used to give talks about snakes I would admit that watching a snake kill and consume its prey was a fascinating thing from a mechanical standpoint, I always added, "But if you really like to watch it all the time, I hope you don't live next door to me." I said it in a semi-funny voice, with a delicate shudder, which helped soften the words, but I still stand by the message.

There's a weird corollary with the Dexter books and TV show - I just can't understand the glorification of a serial killer, even if he's killing bad guys, he's getting too much enjoyment out of it, and I find that just downright creepy.

And, sorry this is long, but I think it's good to find out about. The Russian government, no group of bunny-huggers as far as things go, banned seal hunts. Here's info from the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW):

ncredible news. In a historic victory more than 15 years in the making, Russia today announced a complete ban on the hunting of all harp seals less than one year of age. YOUR calls and letters have made a huge difference. Nearly 40,000 messages were written for Prime Minister Putin in the last month alone. You have helped save up to 35,000 baby seals this year from a cruel and brutal slaughter in the White Sea. Thanks to your support, IFAW has worked tirelessly in Russia to end this hunt since we opened our office there in 1994. We were the first organization to visit the ice and expose the bloody cruelty within Russia when it was virtually unknown - despite being physically assaulted by sealers and enduring powerful opposition from Russian government officials. Over the past year, IFAW organized a wave of anti-hunt protests in 25 cities across Russia. This public outcry led to mounting pressure on Russia's government to formally address the need to close the harp seal hunt. And when a ban on just whitecoat pups (up to about 11 days old) was announced in February, we continued to push through the road blocks of fisheries officials to provide the scientific evidence needed to argue for a full ban. This is your victory. It's time to celebrate ... but we must not forget that more than 250,000 baby seals will still suffer horribly when Canada's own commercial seal hunt begins any day now. The time has come for the Canadian government to follow Russia's lead. Please help us continue our campaign in Canada with a donation to help pass the Harb Seal Bill. This historic legislation would end Canada's cruel commercial hunt for harp seals once and for all. With you by our side, the next historic victory will take place in Canada. For the seals, Fred O'Regan IFAW President

KateH March 21st, 2009 07:00:30 PM

There's no shortage of deranged "monsters" standing upright on this planet.  Apparently armies still march on their stomachs. 

Evet March 21st, 2009 07:04:53 PM

I would certainly delete this Oxycodini freak were it not for a stupid bug that keeps me from deleting emails for the moment. My apologies.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 21st, 2009 08:16:58 PM

Seal "hunting"? I can't call that "hunting". Bludgeoning young/baby seals for fur? Jeepers, thinking that the Eskimos hunt a seal or two for food & clothing is one thing, but mass slaughter?

To address the method: If it is not going to be banned, wouldn't a close range gun-shot be more humane? Or the captive-bolt method?

Hunting: The hunters I know consume their kill:deer, bear, wild boar,moose,turkey---some never see/shoot anything for the entire hunting season.

Capital punishment & lethal injection: It is "frowned" upon but not illegal for a physician to participate. New Hampshire revamped its lethal injection protocol ('08)to "eliminate" the 3rd injection of "potassium chloride" and use a continuous drip of pentobarbital----I wonder if I had something to do with that? Hope so, since my local rep was on the criminal justice committee.

Thank goodness, I don't like lobster, but I do like shrimp & scallops.

Barbara A. Albright/NH

Pocket's Story from N March 21st, 2009 08:36:22 PM

Dr. Patty Khuly March 22nd, 2009 07:03:22 AM

Most of us in Canada do not agree with seal clubbing at all. Just as we dont agree with execution.

However, in a democracy that is headed to the poor house, politicians on the east coast cry for the unemployed. I feel that the vets who conducted the so called educational kill methods for these baby seals should have their licences questioned. I also feel that doctors who attend executions should have their heads read. The seal hunt is about money and fur. It has nothing to do with the fish, just as execution is a matter of assuading someones anger and has nothing to do with human  life .

So if you agree with capital punishment, how can you disagree with the seal hunt. Seems backwards to me.

Oh, and they dont shoot the baby seals for fear of wrecking the pelt, which is all thats used  And it hasnt been banned. JMO Which has nothing to do with either PETA or H$U$

Heather March 22nd, 2009 10:03:51 AM

Chuck you seem to be advocating for an Absolutist, All-or-Nothing sort of approach to this topic that may conceivably be logically consistent but will most certainly not add anything to understanding or compassion. If every person who has ever worn a pair of leather shoes is on precisely the same moral level to you as someone who would deliberately torment animals, then you are advocting for a level of purity that is not possible to achieve in this complex world. I defy anyone to be certain they are living a live one hundred percent free of any product or service connected in any way to the use of animals. That's like the simplistic notion of "buying American." No such thing anymore. Maybe you find something "made" here, but the metal was mined in Africa, the organic components came from Southeast Asia, the hardware was made in China, and so on.

And as for your statement: "Also let me say that I'm in NO WAY for killing of any animal that you're not going to eat.", I have to wonder what your approach will be should your house become infested with termites. They are pests, yes indeed. When this happened to me, I had them killed. Never thought twice about it. Never ate one, either. Not on purpose or to my knowledge, anyway.

I guess I'd rather people who don't really need it would stop buying fur (I would have to argue that Inuit Peoples living in the North are entitled); that would eliminate the "need" for commercial seal hunts. Until that happens, I suppose I'd rather see the killing done as quickly and humanely as possible. Not a very Absolute stance, but one that allows me to sleep at night, knowing that I am not in charge of most of the world.

Judy March 22nd, 2009 03:10:31 PM

Ok, maybe I should say Mammals?  And by now you must know I love to play devils advocate?

Chuck March 22nd, 2009 05:52:49 PM

I did get the Devil's Advocate bit, at least a bit. I was exaggerating a litle myself with the termite thing, too; kind of assuming that if you have a house in the first place (as opposed to being an itinerant Holy Man), you too would probably kill the termites before they consumed it. As for mammals--yes, easier to agree on those! But lemme tell ya 'bout a friend who had a rat infestation in her house...

Judy March 22nd, 2009 07:00:38 PM

P { MARGIN: 0px } UL { MARGIN-TOP: 5px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5px } OL { MARGIN-TOP: 5px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5px }

Judy, Thanks for making me laugh.  During my condo board term, we had to deal with the destructive tendencies of our resident rats (two types), squirrels, and possums.  Most residents would rather not even know these are living in the walls and attics but, when they find out, there are calls for everything from "kill them all yesterday" to "oh, poor things, catch and relocate them".  On the other hand, they do keep the "pests" in the buildings down.  I never could come up with a sound bite answer for them.

"So if you agree with capital punishment, how can you disagree with the seal hunt."  I can easily disagree with the seal hunt while still arguing for the rights of those hunting.  I AM pro death penalty for violent crimes, including stranger rape.  There's a big difference between a wild mammal doing what comes naturally and a human doing so.  In a world of limited resources, I see absolutely no reason for the most violent human offenders to live and suck up resources desperately needed elsewhere while contributing nothing, let alone a sufficient amount to be self supporting.  I don't know about Canada but the US was founded as a Representative Republic, NOT a democracy for very good reasons.  True democracy is merely another name for mass mob rule and we're well on our way to becoming one along with the accompanying decline which is well under way.

PJBoosinger March 22nd, 2009 09:11:13 PM

My response to a few points raised in the comments... The reason shooting seals is discouraged is because unless you kill them with the first shot, they can slip away into the water where they die a slow death by bleeding out. I can't say why using something like a captive bolt gun isn't done, except that the seals are moving and it might be difficult to ensure a clean hit. It also probably isn't cost effective for most hunters to buy captive bolt guns -- I'm sure hakapiks are extremely cheap. One last thing -- while it's true that it's illegal to hunt whitecoats, they become fair game as soon as they shed that white coat when they're about 12 days old. So, the hunters are killing "baby" seals, just not whitecoat ones. Regarding the use of seal meat by non-Inuit/native populations, it's not unusual for people in Atlantic Canada to eat seal flipper pie (I've eaten it), but it's true that most of the seal meat goes unused. I suppose it could be used as a novel protein to make dog food, and while I'd like to see that the meat doesn't go to waste, I also don't want to give the hunters another reason to be out there killing. I truly do think the seal hunt could end tomorrow and the only bad thing that would happen would be that the hunters needed to find a new source of supplemental income. Of course I care that people can support their families, but I don't have to be in favour of how they choose to do it.

Leigh-Ann March 23rd, 2009 04:23:04 AM

I have a hard time understanding large animal vets... The ones employed to provide "humane" killing of "food" animals. The whole practice of animal butchering is barbaric and goes against every compassionate intent we profess to have. Simply using nicer sounding words, or providing classes to instruct killers to do the awful deed "better" does not make it any less cruel. Whether it's farmed animals or baby seals - the whole of it is unnecessary and violates everything we expect of a decent and progressive civilization. And for those who will criticise me for hypocrisy... No, I don't wear leather, fur, eat animal flesh or their excretions. Go Vegan.

Bea Elliott March 23rd, 2009 09:24:11 AM

In terms of the effectiveness of shooting and clubbing see: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?%0Btool=pmcentrez&artid=339547

emily March 23rd, 2009 10:49:16 AM

SEAL HUNT BEGINS TODAY!!! 

To take a page from the Oxycodone guy:

IMPRESS YOUR BOSS WITH A SEAL SKIN TIE!!

INCREASE THE VALUE OF YOUR CAR WITH SEAL SKIN SEAT COVERS!

KEEP YOUR FEET WARM WITH SEAL SKIN SLIPPERS 1/2 PRICE!!!

CONFUSE YOUR NEIGHBORS WITH SEAL SKIN LAWN GNOMES!!!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090323/seal_hunt_090323/20090323?hub=Canada

Chuck March 23rd, 2009 11:28:08 AM

Well the links didn't work out so well, I've failed!

Chuck March 23rd, 2009 11:37:45 AM

Chuck: It was a nice try. We DO appreciate it.

And emily: Wow that's a rough read. Thanks, anyway. I do worry that the Canadian veterinarians charged with observing the hunt were akin to those who observed foie gras production and concluded that "it doesn't hurt any more than taking a pet's temperature."

Dr. Patty Khuly March 23rd, 2009 03:22:23 PM

As a veterinary blogger from across the pond, I've written a piece about the seal hunt in the UK's Daily Telegraph.

See http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_wedderburn/blog/2009/03/25/canadas_shameful_seal_hunt

The passion of those for and against makes for some heated comments both ways. Veterinarians find themselves on both sides of the argument, some saying it's humane, others that it can't possibly be.

It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves. I know where I stand: on the side of the animals

Pete

www.petethevet.com

Pete the vet in Ireland, www.petethevet.com March 28th, 2009 07:16:46 AM

Sorry, that link again is:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_wedderburn/blog/2009/03/25/canadas_shameful_seal_hunt

Pete the vet in Ireland, www.petethevet.com March 28th, 2009 07:17:48 AM

Great piece, Pete. Thanks for your work...and for hanging out with us US folks.

Dr. Patty Khuly March 29th, 2009 12:52:35 PM

As someone who works in the medicine field, this post raised some interesting points. My thoughts on it are that helping improve the method does not mean you support it, I'm a nurse but I am not bound by primum non nocere, but instead am bound by primum succurrere. If I'm dealing with a patient whose in with infection from unsafe needle practice and various drug related problems, I will educate them on the risks on drug use and how to access resources to aid them in quitting. However I will also teach them proper needle safety and direct them to places where they can get resources that help them shoot up more safely. This doesn't mean I support their drug habit, but if I can make the situation even a bit better then it is my professional and moral obligation to do so.

One could say the same as the Vets in this article, they can't snap their fingers and stop the seal hunt. They can however volunteer their time and expertise to try to improve its execution. Don't condemn them for doing so, no matter your view on the seal hunt we can all agree making it even a tiny bit more humane is a good thing.

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