It is astonishing how rapid this was. My default assumption is extreme stupidity and some adulterated product/tonic rather than a deliberate attack--but it is always possible someone had a grudge.

vein April 22nd, 2009 11:50:53 AM

I've been waiting for this post...and I hope when the pathology reports are released you will put it into layman's terms for us. The whole thing is heartbreaking.

CreatureofHabit April 22nd, 2009 12:07:52 PM

Yhe suddenness and involvement of one team points to toxin, possibly sabotage, but a point source. Previous incident was japanese yew, other possibilities may be nitrate, OPO4, botulism, blister beetle. Yew or beelte could be in the hay. Thimet could be hay or environmental....1/2 tsp will kill a steer or hrose w2ith few if any signs!!

kim April 22nd, 2009 12:10:23 PM

Oh, how horrible!!!

Kim April 22nd, 2009 12:18:19 PM

This sort of thing has happened before, though (as I recall) not quite so abupt and not in front of spectators.  But over a hundred horses have been lost at a time to things like feed mill mishaps...the one that sticks wth me is putting urea for cows into horse feed.  Horses are particularly sensitive to molds in hay, so one bad batch can kill an entire barn. Hay or feed may also contain toxins that weren't added in by a feed mill.  Alfalfa hay may contain blister beetles, and just part of one blister beetle can kill a horse.  There are molds particular to various hays, molds that can get into feeds (aflatoxin, anyone?), and all sorts of other possible ways to accidentally kill a horse by feeding him something that ought to be safe.

Horses can be really stupid about things they eat, and will graze on toxic plants that can kill them--especially if they're unfamiliar with it.  Sometimes unfamiliar areas might have toxic chemicals sprayed on areas where horses will try to grab a bite of grass or other plants.  If you have a lot of horses traveling through an unfamiliar area, they all get out for an overnight rest stop in an unfamiliar place, they may all take a few nibbles if they're allowed--and big money horses are often handled by grooms who let them get away with murder, for one reason or another; extremely valuable horses have the WORST manners.  That all of them might drag their handlers over to a toxic verge isn't unreasonable.  (Or the handlers might even hand graze them there, not knowing they shouldn't.)

When traveling, you either have to stock up on huge amounts of hay/grain from home, or buy as you go.  Horses need 10-20% of their body weight in just hay every day (the lower end of that is for horses who are in very active work, and get more of their daily meals from grains).  For 20-something polo ponies--probably 800 lbs, maybe 1000 each--that's a LOT of hay.  Bringing your own hay from a trusted source is the best option, but the logistics are overwhelming with that many horses.  If they got a new delivery of hay as they traveled that had something toxic in it (blister beetles, for example), and fed it to all the horses at once, then all the horses might start reacting to the toxin at the same time.

There are so many ways horses can die suddenly, without warning.  ...remind me why I have horses again?

Galadriel April 22nd, 2009 12:20:50 PM

I think the assertions that it must have been caused by tainted feed or supplements are silly. As someone said, you don't feed these guys right before a competition. More likely - the tainted steroid shots that were mentioned.

What will the Florida Dept Ag find on tox/necropsy?

I am willing to bet that they emerge with some conclusion that totally cleans the hands of the owner AND the vets that were working with the team -- i.e., one that asserts they DID NOT receive steroids. NOT BECAUSE IT WILL BE THE TRUTH, but because a) apparently polo is a multimillion sport; b) the culpable are rich and know how to use their money; c) anything that besmirches the sportsmen (if you can call them that) may depress attendance and therefore deprive the state of income related to this sport.

It's in everyone's pecuniary interests to exonerate the owners, the vets who would have administerd performance enhancing drugs, and the sport. So, that is what I bet will occur. Dept Ag. vets doing the necropsy can find anything they want to find. And not find anything they don't want to find. I've seen this at work in my own state with what I believe were biased necropsies perfored by Dept Ag vets. I will be pleasantly surprised if it is otherwise, since I feel certain tainted steroid injections were likelyy to blame just as some have alleged. The timing of the deaths, the totality of them, to me are consistent with this.

Obviously, I don't trust govt and am a total cynic. Why wouldd they find ANYTHING that would hurt the polo sport? When it brings $$ to FLA>?

Stefani April 22nd, 2009 12:24:58 PM

I had a similar thing happen in my own barn this winter. It was absolutley devastating. I own 6 horses and board 3 or 4 others for friends. We are dilgent about maintaining our pastures, feeding quality hay and just providing excellent care in general. One morning I went out to feed and my very favorite horse was exhibiting signs of colic. He had been on stall rest for several months due to a deep digital flexor tendon tear and was just being transitioned to light turnout and walking under saddle. Something told me this wasnt' a typical colic so I immediately called the vet. What happened over the next few days was horrific. Apparantely we had gotten a load of hay that had a toxic weed in it and, unknowingly, the horses had been eating the hay for weeks. Every horse on the property was affected with acute liver failure. We lost my horse and a boarder's horse. Everyone else has recovered but it was an incredible nightmare. We never did find any hay with the toxin in (it had all been eaten by the time the symptoms appeared) but necropsies narrowed down the toxin to one of 3 plants that are common in California. There's more about our situation including a link to information about the toxic plants at http://www.fieldhaven.com/stories/nathan.htm. I don't know what will be found about the polo ponies but I know firsthand the grief they are going through and the frustration of not knowing what the toxin is. And, then, after finding out the cause the mental anguish of "what if I had noticed something sooner", "what if I hadn't switched hay suppliers" (as in our case), etc....

Joy April 22nd, 2009 12:49:03 PM

After I saw the headline Monday, I wondered when you would provide us with your inimitable perspective.  :-)

Meri Gray April 22nd, 2009 01:08:32 PM

Joy: That is so terribly sad. But things happen. Best not to beat yourself up about things you can't control. Easier said than done, I know.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 22nd, 2009 01:09:27 PM

Tragic and sad. We need to stop saying it could have been preventable and figure out what the heck is going on.

I hope we as a society can regain some sense of quality over quantity, purpose over mania, calmness over frantic deadlines, and the resulting to many mistakes from renforced negative behaviors.

Evet April 22nd, 2009 01:24:01 PM

It sounds like all the horses got the same injectible vitamin supplement....

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2009/04/22/0422biodyl.html

Megan April 22nd, 2009 01:28:40 PM

I'm with Stefani on this one. The owners of the polo farm where I work & keep my former polo pony are in that area all winter. Yet I've not heard a word from them which I find strange. I'd wager there's lots of talk about it among the polo people & one friend, a polo groom, opined it was the supplemental vitamin mix. Hopefully we'll get to hear the truth & not a well scrubbed version.

Ellie April 22nd, 2009 02:24:47 PM

Awful, just awful. I read the version from this news source:http://www.justnews.com/news/19242381/detail.html

And it talks of possibly steroid injections administered by an Argentinian vet. Another vet said that "only trainers can inject horses" and steroids are "prohibitive".

My question is: are either or both those statements true?

And like others, I hope the truth comes out and it doesn't get buried along with other attempts in the past, such as initial reports from the dog food debacle.

Pocket's Story from NH

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 22nd, 2009 03:36:32 PM

There go Stefani and Barbara again: beating up on veterinarians. Let me tell you what I find sickening: that there are people whose first thought was that a veterinarian is involved with killing these animals, and that more veterinarians will be complicit in covering it up. How poisoned can their souls be that they only think of veterinarians as evil killers. Dr. Khuly, you have been insulted, along with all the other veterinarians in the world, including those that sweated (and I'm sure shed not a few tears) over this tragedy.

Paul April 22nd, 2009 03:57:41 PM

Paul, sorry you are offended, read the news link first before you blab...because that was the online news report... I think it is tragic no matter how it happened, but perhaps outrageous should it be found deliberate OR negligent...OK?

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 22nd, 2009 04:23:00 PM

Barbara, I tried to get information about the malpractice assertions. There was no reference to a drug or dosage. There was no cause of death. You make accusations, but there are no facts to educate us. If your dog had a hemangiosarcoma, that may have ruptured giving the signs you describe. I seriuosly doubt any of the staff tried to kill or torture your pet. Dea lilcense only shows fees are paid, has no bearing on competence. I am sorry about your pet, not every case is curable.

Kim April 22nd, 2009 05:50:30 PM

Might we reserve judgment until we have more facts?  Then the mud slinging can begin and I doubt anyone here is going to forget... :)

PJBoosinger April 22nd, 2009 05:55:15 PM

Kim: who on earth are you & what are YOU talking about?

I believe this post is about 21 dead horses & a guy named Paul that didn't want to check a news story that I referenced via url, when making my comment.

And Paul: Dr. Khuly , if I may say what I "think", does not view negative as maligning an entire profession and has enlightened us on many topics of Dr. Badvet and Dr. Incahoots, perhaps you can review some past blogs. OR, the huge praise described on the dental blog of recent..

visit my web journal enabled for "comments" http://walnut-hill.bravejournal.com

PJB: thanks, I can say I'm strong enough for the criticism

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 22nd, 2009 06:31:44 PM

Barbara, as you know, I can go there too :)

PJBoosinger April 22nd, 2009 07:16:07 PM

Kim

We are not talking about CURES, but HONESTY!  If you know what I mean. . . If you don't have the experience or skills SAY SO to us the guardians. 

      Asproolee's Story

Fotini April 22nd, 2009 08:57:37 PM

OK so this started with polo ponies and it's going to stay that way.

I agree that veterinarians are often involved in the drugging of sport animals (there are always a few bad apples) but the industry is typically the driver of this illegal and immoral act. The veterinarian is almost never the pusher--just the parasite. The same can be said of cycling, for example. Does anyone really believe that the MDs out there are responsible for the doping? Don't think so--no one ever mentions them, anyway. The trainers, the team owners, the ambitious cyclists, themselves. But not the MDs. In this light, taking the fight to the vets in this case is laughable. Still, I don't think that's where B and S were going with this one, P.

btw, seeing as polo is a "genteel" sport where money is invariably spent and not made, I seriously question whether doping is at work here. Naive, perhaps. But it's a thought.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 22nd, 2009 09:34:01 PM

Poor, poor Paul. How sad it is that your view of others' enlightenment is sickening to you.

AND your view that Stefani and Barbara only view veterinarians as evil killers is incorrect.

I think I can speak for them, as well as myself, when I say that vets are also viewed as MANY other things, such as:

- Stupid Killers

- Negligent Killers

- Incompetent Killers

- Lazy Killers

- No good for nothing killers

- etc. etc. I've got more...

Is that what you wanted to hear?

No?

How about caring and compassionate professionals - Is that better?

The truth is that a vet can be any one of the things that I mentioned above and sometimes somewhere in between. It just so happens that we are more aware than the average pet owner of the MANY bad apples in this profession BECAUSE of our experiences and our research of the FACTS.

I challenge you to point out where Stefani, Barbara, Fotini, Natalie, Julie, myself, and others similarly situated have ever classified ALL vets as bad apples.

We never have. We know better.

We know that there are at least 2 or 3 good vets out there - counting Dr. Khuly. LOL.

Ok - maybe a few more than that. LOL.

Paul, take off the rose colored glasses when viewing the veterinary profession, please sir.

Greg - Stempy's Story April 22nd, 2009 10:13:08 PM

This is a sad story that no doubt the truth will show regardless of the causes, countless horses suffered needlessly and die terrible deaths.

we need transparency in a lot of areas, not just in veterinary medicine.

We don't need to flame one another, I get enough of that on other sites, we need to work together with a vet who actually regularly communicates with us, to make it a better animal world out there, through being better advocates and better informed..

LorriM April 23rd, 2009 01:32:01 AM

Thanks, LorriM. 

Dr. Patty Khuly April 23rd, 2009 06:44:02 AM

Based on my experience as a large animal veterinarian, I agree with Dr. Khuly. While veterinarians can be involved in drugging incidents (and I find that indescribably sad), the owners and trainers are almost always the pushers. It's common for performance horses to be given medications obtained over the Internet or on the black or grey market, sometimes using a prescription written by a physician or dentist. The veterinarian of record may or may not be aware of what, exactly, the horses have been given. Trainers can and do administer drugs, orally (including via NG tube), intramuscularly, and intravenously. This is true for all disciplines - racing, hunter/jumper, western performance, halter, and, yes, polo. But I must disagree with Dr. Khuly in that in my experience, owners will drug horses for bragging rights alone. I've seen this at the lowest levels of competition, including local kids' horse shows. Because there are no doping rules for polo, a standard toxicology screen should be helpful in detecting common medications. It isn't necessary to use anything exotic (to beat the test) if there is no risk that the horses will be tested. FWIW, I doubt that anabolic steroids were given to these horses. The effects of anabolic steroids would not be desirable in polo ponies. So what do I think? I think the horses were given something that wasn't what the owner or trainer thought it was. There was an excellent article in the Thoroughbred Times 10/18/08 issue entitled Compounding Controversy (sorry - can't figure out how to link page). Two years ago, horses in LA died after ingesting illegally compounded clenbuterol obtained from a feed store. When tested, the illegal product had 70 times the strength of either Ventipulmin (the brand name product) or Aeropulmin (the generic product), both of which are prescription medications. Yes, the illegal garbage was cheap and didn't require a veterinarian's prescription, but was it worthwhile? I think something similar happened in this case, not necessarily involving clenbuterol (though massive clenbuterol overdose would produce similar symptoms). So, if your veterinarian recommends an FDA-approved medication over a cheaper, (illegally) compounded product, listen to her. She is interested in the welfare of your animal. And if your veterinarian recommends one compounding pharmacy over another, ditto. Compounding is the Wild West of the pharmaceutical industry. Finally, many high-level horses travel with their own veterinarians, who may or may not be licensed in every country they visit. Consider that the USET travels with its own veterinarians to the Olympics, Pan Am games, World Equestrian Games, etc. I've never met the Argentinian veterinarian affiliated with Lechuza Caracaus, but I've met several fine South American veterinarians over the years. If I were to visit Venezuela, I'm sure the local horse community would view me as a foreign veterinarian and be suspicious of my training and ethics, too.

whodunit April 23rd, 2009 08:04:49 AM

The whole concept of "illegal doping" of athletes (human or animal) is VERY new.  Check out page 3 of this item http://www.ioa.org.gr/books/reports/1997/1997_068.pdf.  BTW, many of these are policies in most countries or sporting rules and NOT laws.  I think history will show that the whole concept of outlawing drugs was error and bad policy.  Personally, I find the concept of "doping" (in the sense of performance enhancement over health) of animals far more offensive than the use of doping drugs in humans who get to make an informed choice and who should be permitted to do so.

I have a feeling that the use of drugs for animals falls more under the heading of ethics than law.  Guess I'm going to have to go look up the law on that :)

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 08:36:13 AM

That's very interesting whodunit, and I TOTALLY agree PJB.

As someone who knows little about horse culture (beyond the occassional trail ride), I'd be curious to know what the different issues are in this area. I'm not a big fan of animal exploitation for morbid entertainment, whether a plot device in a movie or a sunny afternoon in Palm Beach sipping mojitos, so I don't follow racing or polo or rodeos. The idea of drugging these animals turns my stomach (talk about naive!), but I would like to know what the different venues are: I suppose I could assume steroid use for racing ponies, but what else goes on? And am I correct in understanding that steroid substances are not illegal in the rules of conduct for these 'sports'?

CreatureofHabit April 23rd, 2009 08:52:18 AM

Oh man, this just popped up on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/polo.horses/index.html

Biodyl?

CreatureofHabit April 23rd, 2009 08:58:02 AM

Fugly's take on it is interesting, and from a polo player to boot:

http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/04/too-bad-horses-couldnt-just-say-no.html

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 09:23:20 AM

Oh, goodie, we're now squarely in the midst of the huge gray zone known as international drug laws.  Let's see, we have horses brought in from one country and Biodyl, a compounded drug, not FDA approved, probably brought in from another country.  And the drug in question is vitamins, a whole other can of worms.  I see a discussion of international treaties coming.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:25:04 AM

Paul, re: "Dr. Khuly, you have been insulted, along with all the other veterinarians in the world,"

Oh BS! Dr. Khuly HERSELF has blogged about the complicity and involvement of vets in the puppy mill/breeding business. Dr. Khuly herself has blogged about vets being involved in things they shouldn't be involved in.

No doubt when it comes to steroids and performance enhancing drugs, its the owners that WANT IT DONE. But just like in human med, some "medical professional" has to be involved in the acquisition -- and often delivery/administration -- of those performance enhancing drugs.

Doctors are usually implicated in such things in human sports. Does saying that as a fact insult ALL doctors?

This is generally the problem with many in the audience here as well as among "good" vets of conscience -- quite bafflingly, act as though criticism of a vet whose behavior is obviuosly not correct is criticism of ALL VETS.

As long as you continue to identify with, and vehemently defend, rogue practitioners and the worst in the field, problems will not be addressed.

stefani April 23rd, 2009 10:26:17 AM

Stefani,

And as long as people here post crap like how pathological animal abusers are drawn to and overrepresented in the veterinary profession, you can expect blowback. NO ONE is "identifying with" or "vehemently defending" bad practitioners. Every profession has them and fights over how best to find and deal with them. But your constant painting of the entire veterinary profession as evil is one that's simply hard to stomach ... and totally untrue.

All I can say is that Dr. K is incredibly tolerant of your unending, unfounded slurs on a well-respected profession.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 10:37:42 AM

Gina,

Your post proves my point.

I mentioned both owners and vets in my original post.

You interpret things as a slur on the entire profession. I wasn't talking about the entire profession. I was talking about this case. The very fact that you interpret it as a blanket thing proves my point.

You also are completely misquoting me, and frankly, it borders on defamation.

I never used the word "overrepresented" in the prior post you reference.

You habitually mischaracterize my statements, exaggerating and warping them, then trying to make people think I said something I didn't.

Again, this borders on defamation. Please stop.

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 10:46:26 AM

Can we try to have just one on topic conversation? It is predictable but depressing to see it was indeed a tonic that seems to be the culprit. I am behind the time in thinking of oral dosing though, and injection makes more sense with the rapid onset. With any horse competition there tend to be tonics, often used rather superstitiously and from fallible--even rather questionable--sources.

emily April 23rd, 2009 10:47:15 AM

"some "medical professional" has to be involved in the acquisition -- and often delivery/administration -- of those performance enhancing drugs"  Sorry but not at all; especially not in the international arena.  In fact, with performance enhancing drugs, the game is for a chemist to come up with an undetectable one, it gets into widespread use, then gets "scheduled"/outlawed, THEN doctors may have access to it if it ever gets through FDA approval.

How many who aren't licensed have used a syringe and needle to baste a Turkey?  I have.  The "paraphernalia" is easily obtainable, as are most of the "chemicals" and neither subq nor IM is particularly difficult from what I hear (though, needle chicken that I am, my doc couldn't get me to give myself B-12 shots).  My point is that we have no idea whether or not vets were involved in this particular matter, even if it is Biodyl injections that are implicated.

Let's all try to paint with a finer brush until we've got facts.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 11:01:42 AM

Stefani, "defamation"?  Really?  You want to go there?  You and Gina are both here and everyone can see both your posts.  I just read your original post on this topic and I can see several statements that come much closer to being defamation about parties who aren't here to defend themselves.

BTW, it's ever so much more persuasive if you blow out at someone AFTER you get evidence. :)

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 11:17:05 AM

No, Stefani, you were implicating the entire veterinary profession when you wrote "what I bet will occur. . .vets doing the necropsy can find anything they want to find". Without even knowing who the vet(s) are, your first response is to bet that ANY vet in that situation would be complicit. That is insulting. You clearly show that this hateful opinion is your world view of all veterinarians by betting on it. You do not say that there is the possiblitiy of a bad apple, you bet on it. Furthermore, you say you "will be pleasantly surprised if it is otherwise" again showing that to you, any vet with integrity is so rare that you would be surprized to find one. Don't backpedal now, your own words show how hateful you are.

Paul April 23rd, 2009 11:22:18 AM

"well-respected profession"  Every time I hear a lawyer utter these words, I ask "well respected" by whom?  If the answer is "other members or the same or related professions", then that's just good old fashioned sales puffing or, in this case, a huge swing to the other side of the pendulum :)

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 11:27:51 AM

In studies showing public perception of various occupations, veterinarians are always near the top. Here's one such poll, by Gallup: http://www.discovernursing.com/newsletter_view.aspx?id=48 Lawyers, politicians and journalists are always near the bottom. Just FYI. When I write, I can back up what I say.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 12:02:50 PM

PJ ... your point is well-taken re: performance-enhancing drugs. After all the BALCO scandals of Major League Baseball didn't involve doctors at all. And in congressional testimony, ballplayers admitted to administering steroids to each other, via jabs in the backside. Horse-racing has long had a problem with doping, with lots of trainer suspenstions. Mostly it's the trainers who are busted for unallowed meds, not the veterinarians.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 12:18:42 PM

about Gina Spadafori:

"....She also counts among her readers scores of veterinarians, many of whom use her articles in their practices to help educate their clients."

Gina - how many books have you co-authored with vets? Three? Four?

Do you really expect us to believe that you could have an objective view of a profession that you have been in bed with for years?

Hahahahahahaha!

Not today.

Those of you so critical of Stefani's views - tell me something. How much time have YOU spent pouring over multiple states' board orders of actions of some of the worst in your profession?

On these various state boards are many of the leaders of your profession. Many times they have served leadership roles in the various state VMA's before "graduating" to the regulatory boards. Your so-called leaders DISMISS countless valid complaints EVERY YEAR - in effect "covering up" or "looking the other way" - and they are PROTECTING these BAD VETS - NOT OUR PETS.

How do we know other than by our own experiences? Because we are contacted over and over by grieving pet owners - who have VALID complaints - yet their complaints were dismissed by these BIASED boards.

We've talked about it here before that when the boards do act, the actions taken are woefully inadequate to serve as a future deterrent.

When the LEADERS of your profession OVERWHELMINGLY act to protect BAD vets, it's no wonder we might be just a tad cynical.

Greg Stempy's Story April 23rd, 2009 12:24:32 PM

"More doctors smoke Camel than any other cigarette..." And, at the time 69% of the Gallop poll "trusted" their doctors advice. http://911blogger.com/node/19456

Sorry, all public opinion polls tell me is how the PR campaigns are going.  That poll is for ethics and honesty rather than respect but assuming arguendo that they can be equated...  Let's see, bankers used to be much closer to the top (as did lawyers) and accountants are making their way back after their great fall.  And how knowledgeable is the average person who doesn't hang up on the Gallop pollster?  I do love that Gallop thinks that a poll of 1,000 people is actually representative or that the opinions of those they can get and keep on the phone is.  For all I know, they randomly selected 900 vets.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/112264/Nurses-Shine-While-Bankers-Slump-Ethics-Ratings.aspx#2

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 12:37:37 PM

10 books. I suppose you would expect me to write "Birds For Dummies" with: a)A boarded avian vet who wrote parts of the specialty exam; or b) a poultry farmer. You would expect me to write "Cats For Dummies" with a) a boarded veterinary cardiologist who discovered the link between taurine deficiency in cat foods and a disease that was killing 100K cats a year; or b) someone who "likes kitties a lot" puh-lease. Look, I report on veterinary medicine. I have taken the profession to task for conflicts of interest in food and pharma, for widespread use of outdated vaccine protocols, for being late to react to the pet-food recall and more. But I do NOT go into any discussion thinking that veterinarians are sadistic animal abusers or incompetent, which seems to be the view of a handful of people here. If anything, my reporting on the veterinary profession -- especially the top vets I work with -- have engendered a great deal of respect for the professional overall. Again, NO ONE is saying that all veterinarians are good ones. I just have a real problem with the attitude a few of you bring to these discussions, that the veterinary profession is full of bad apples. I'm very sorry that some of you feel your pets were hurt or killed by poor-quality care. But vet hatred isn't going to get better care for any pet.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 12:38:31 PM

All the vets here attacking guardians ought to be ashamed of yourselves. No one pointed fingers at anyone, and you just have to admit that every profession has its BAD APPLES. If you spent more time policing yourselves and less reading these blogs, we wouldn't have as much to say and your profession would be MUCH BETTER for it!! If you want to be thought of as an "honored profession" you must stop acting like a brotherhood and protect the animal at all costs!  Unfortunately, guardians posting comments of Dr. K's, who graciously afforded us the opportunity, have all tasted these bad apples, after expending vast amounts of money towards your "expertise." We are veterinary services consumers and CUSTOMERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT! My first amendment right will not be threatened by intimidation and efforts to this end do not solve the problem!

Asproolee's Story

Fotini April 23rd, 2009 12:51:15 PM

Sigh. Same old story. Criticize a vet, question the outcome of an investigation of animal deaths where vets might have been involved, and suddenly you are bashing the entire profession. Defensive much? Honestly, can you not tell the difference? If I talk about a female child molester or a male wifebeater, am I descended upon by the hordes as condemning ALL men, ALL women, ALL anything? No, because only the lamest of brains would not be able to figure out that I am talking about individuals within a group. Do you want us to use the word “some” in front of every single mention of a vet because you can’t figure it out for yourselves? Okay, here goes: Some vets kill. Some vets abuse. Some vets break laws. Some vets are not fit to touch stuffed animals, much less my companions. Is that better? Those of us who have been victimized by SOME vets are very well aware of the distraction and diversion techniques used by fans who will never in a million years admit that there is anything wrong with that profession. I have NEVER in my life said all vets are bad, incompetent, negligent, whatever. I have said repeatedly that the system that protects these people overwhelmingly favors the profession – the statistics from EVERY VET BOARD IN THE COUNTRY bear that out. What’s that -- some kind of wacky coincidence? So stop sticking your heads in the sand and realize that there are some very, very BAD vets out there. We certainly know that there are also some very, very GOOD ones. How many times does this need to be said, or is the message here that nobody is to say anything the least bit uncomplimentary about the veterinary profession without risking the Attack of the Groupies?

Julie April 23rd, 2009 12:56:15 PM

Gina, I know you're more toward the middle. 

I also understand the inclination to swing a little wide when responding to something that's way out there the other direction.  But, seems to me that only widens the swinging :)  For example,...

Fotini, WHAT first amendment rights?  You ain't got none on someone else's blog site!

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 12:58:12 PM

Oh, and "customers" may always be right but "clients" are frequently WRONG which is exactly why professionals are necessary.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 01:01:42 PM

Thanks, PJ. I think I am generating to the atmosphere of more heat than light here, and that's not helpful. I hate that when it happens on Pet Connection, so I'm not going to contribute any more to that happening here. :)

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 01:10:40 PM

Please stop arguing .

Those horses are dead and it seems its the fault of their trainer. I read the link. The vets worked hard to save every one of them.

Pointing fingers at vets is not going to solve the use of illegal substances being administered to animals. Nor is it going to stop the importing of these substances .

I have had contact and worked with several vets during my time in pet rescue. I wouldnt change any of them and I respect them enough to listen to them.

 I dont argue with them either without proof.

This blog is a learning tool for me and I appreciate all opinions .

Even the biased and ugly ones.

heather April 23rd, 2009 01:17:10 PM

Julie, The topic was the death of 21 polo ponies and, thus far, there's no evidence that it involved a bad act by anyone, let alone by specific someones, let alone by vets.  Yet there was immediate speculation and accusation, including specifically the broad brushing of vets as "bad".  Any who does that is standing on a house of cards and deserves the "Attack of the Groupies", a mere puff of wind, to blow down the house of cards for no more reason than going that far off topic.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 01:18:23 PM

Wow, you guys are hyper-sensitive and take things to an illogical conclusion. I was simply pointing out that some people's first thought was that veterinarians will automaticaly be at fault/hide the truth, and that I found that insulting to good vets like Dr. K. Your rabid insecurities show. I'm with Gina -- I'm out.

Paul April 23rd, 2009 01:19:40 PM

PJ, are you an attorney? What country do you live in where First Amendment rights come and go depending on where you are expressing yourself? As someone sued in a SLAPP suit by a whacked-out, arrogant  VET who spent two and half years trying to get unconstitutional injunctions against me and  my web site  - and failed MISERABLY, BTW lol -- don't even talk about things you know NOTHING about. Fight off somebody who thinks money can overturn the Constitution of this country, have your life torn apart by a vet's attorney who thinks that threats, intimidation, and insane, invasive depositions and endless discovery requests will scare you off, spend 24/7 wondering what fresh hell will be visited upon you and your family by a vet who would stop at nothing in unending attempts to SILENCE the TRUTH, and then talk to me about First Amendment. You have NO idea what a "professional" with money will do to your life when you dare to speak out against one of them. Like my cat, I fought this monster and beat him back to the hole he crawled out of, where I  hope he rots for what he did to my cat, to me, to my family, to my work, and to my life. Fight for your First Amendment rights like I did (and WIN) at immeasurable cost at every level of your existence, and then enlighten us with your wisdom about our Constitutional freedoms.

Julie www.vetabusenetwork.com April 23rd, 2009 01:22:37 PM

I NEVER said that I believed all veterinarians are sadists, or abusers, etc. Again, misrepresentation. As my original post implied, it is my view that sadists and abusers are an fringe minority in the veterinary profession.

I have given positive reviews to certain vets online. Clearly I don't think the entire profession is bad -- again, a mispresentation of my statements.

On the topic at hand, I was positing that the owners may have had a vet administer steroids as a performance enhancing drug to their horses. I am not the only person who has guessed this, there were news sources citing people speculating this. I also speculated that the State of Florida has motive to engage in a coverup if they find that to be the case -- because polo brings $$$ to the State. Vets would be involved in that also since, I assume, they would do the necropsy.

It is obvious that some vets are involved in providing "services" to polo team owners, race horses, etc. and unfortunately, there have been cases where we have learned that they were involved in administering substances that they should not have.

What is troubling to me is the way people react when you point out such instances and speak out against them. As though it is the solemn responsibility of ALL their colleagues AND their public to rush to their defense. Very troubling .

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 01:22:37 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/23/polo.pony.deaths/index.html

It was the pharmacy.

End of arguing and mudslinging, please.

CreaturofHabit April 23rd, 2009 01:25:27 PM

Julie, you are correct. In addition to the other things you mentioned that SOME vets do, other SOME vets like only the expressions of respect and gratitude. You are welcome to offer those. No matter how many times we say (we should perhaps come up with some canned signature lines to that effect) that we know that not all vets are bad apples, that we know many good and honorable vets, yada, yada, yada, SOME vets and MANY of their friends will always be threatened by any attempt to bring the problems to light or to have a balanced discussion of these problems. When people like you and Stefani zero in on a questionable practice, their statements become "crap." Is that the only defence you have at your disposal, Gina? Hmm, not very convincing, or effective. And Paul, no Stefani certainly was not implicating the entire profession when she wrote "vets doing the necropsy can find anything they want to find." She was implicating the vets "doing the necropsy" (verbatim, actually: cut and paste!). You can't tell the difference? Your hypersensitivity is puzzling...at best. You would do yourselves a far greater favor if you were able to put your hypersensitivities aside and take an objective look at your profession, which is no different from many others: there are good AND bad apples in it. Many in your profession and good and honorable people. Many are not. As Greg plainly put it, many are in between. SOME play into the interests of greed. There is obvious corruption in much of the leadership and oversight. When some of us zero in on the problems, it is because we have witnessed them first hand and have suffered a great deal from them. If we raise these problems, we do it because we want improvements to benefit us all, including you, Paul and Gina (or rather your pets, perhaps). We do not do it to bash the entire profession. If you have a problem understanding this, some serious growing up is in order.

Natalie Kramer April 23rd, 2009 01:50:37 PM

I do not find the veterinary profession to be an "honored" or "respectable profession. I now know too much about it. Too much bad. I do believe there are honest, credible vets out there, and like any profession there are liars, theieves and unethical "vets" who have no business being NEAR ANY animal!! http://vetconcerns.blogspot.com/ On the issue of the horses, I don't believe ANY animals should EVER be used in racing and expecially not racing for money! SICK! Any sick people involved in this "sport" are the same sick people who have ended the fate of these INNOCENT animals! DISGUSTING. May these INNOCENT God's creatures rest in peace away from whomever abused them....someone did....it is not a coincidence!

Me April 23rd, 2009 02:13:51 PM

For the record, the original thread hijacker here was Paul. My original post was about this story. It was others who turned it into a broader referendum about ALL vets -- which frankly, is often thse case with the thread hijacks here.

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 02:37:24 PM

Julie, "are you an attorney?"  Yeppers.  And I've argued and won more than one constitutional case.

creature, that isn't final yet but, hey, they even promptly fessed up even though they really didn't have much choice given the scrutiny.  I'm impressed!

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 02:39:32 PM

Stefani, Agreed but is tagging on or responding any less of a hijacking?

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 02:41:59 PM

PJ, are you an attorney? What country do you live in where First Amendment rights come and go depending on where you are expressing yourself?

Julie, shocking though you may find this, your First Amendment rights apply against the government. You do not, and never have had, a First Amendment right to use someone else's resources (i.e., their blog, not yours) to express yourself.

On Dr. Khuly's blog, we are Dr. Khuly's guests. Any one of us whom she chooses to give the boot to, is gone, and no violation of that person's First Amendment rights will have occurred.

Think of yourself as a guest in her living room.

Now, if you started your own blog, and the local, state, or federal government decided to shut you down, that would implicate your First Amendment rights. Or if Dr. Khuly sued you to try to force you to shut down, that might be a SLAPP suit--but not on her own blog.

Lis April 23rd, 2009 03:23:49 PM

Lis, thanks.

Julie, I see on your website that your lawsuit was dismissed; PURSUANT to a SETTLEMENT.  Any reason you haven't scanned and posted that settlement agreement or the terms of the settlement?  Didn't find a blog or comment section where you allow others to criticize back though (as Dr. K does).  Did I miss it?  Or are you amongst the "I can dish but can't take it" crowd?  I'd have asked over on your site but, well, you know, I CAN'T.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 03:44:00 PM

I love this blog and shall continue reading it. But I will be skipping the comment section at least for a few months, they just seem to run so combative and negative in tone.

emily April 23rd, 2009 04:22:34 PM

Creature of Habit et al . . . what is baffling in the news article you linked to (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/23/polo.pony.deaths/index.html ) is that it identifies an improperly compounded "medication" as the admitted cause of death (presumably pending confirmation) but then the article re-quotes the statement that 5 of the ponies did not receive the "vitamin supplement" and only those survived.

Is this "medication" they refer to and the "vitamin supplement" the same thing, or different?

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 04:24:47 PM

I'm totally and completely guessing that they didn't have access to the pre-fab version of this combination vitamin/mineral mix they also seem to be calling a medicine used for "treatment" so had a vet script and  had it compounded by this pharmacy.  So probably the same medication(s)/drug(s) but technically not the same product. There's a real mix of terms of art being casually used.  Gotta say the CNN reporter's use of medical terminology may even be worse than mine.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 05:04:39 PM

One of the reasons I'm asking is that prior news reports said that the supplement was illegal in the US so I doubt the FLA pharma would so readily admit to compounding it -- I think the news report may be confusing two different substances.

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 06:07:46 PM

Gee whiz, I've only been gone less than 24 hours! And someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but ALL of us NO longer get email updates of posts?? So, the only ones that can get all bent out of shape are the horribly "addicted" Dolittlers, such as myself;)

Gina: I feel that your comment is uncalled for. Stef & I have made many reasonable comments and asked many, many reasonable questions on a variety of topics, as "frequent D's". And quite frankly, it is "offensive" to me, to suggest that my 11 1/2 year old did NOT suffer, and I wouldn't even term it "poor quality" care, but ZERO-NON-CARE would be suitable, up to and including fraudulent, unethical, & cruel care.And the other posters, pets did too! Read closely, it does take some time that most won't or don't have.

But despite that unbearable memory & experience, I still can see the goodness in the profession, all over the place. What do you think I did with my remaining 6? Give them away? Not take care of their illnesses or needs?

Every time I see the waaaa, waaa one-liners, I can't help but wonder if someone isn't adult enough to just ignore anything. I assure you I don't bombard anyone with crying complaints. It just makes me think that there are those wanting "silence" of the abhorrent truth. Believe me when I say, I have been around the "BLOCK" over and over and it isn't going to happen. But anyone is welcome to contact me off list, all my information is public.

BTW, I liked Fotini's response, and I think she meant to use the term "censored"--you may be gracious enough to realize that Fotini though obviously good spelling & grammar, does not have full command of English, as most of us USA born.

Pocket's Story from New Hampshire

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 23rd, 2009 06:12:50 PM

So, Gina, you "have taken the profession to task for conflicts of interest in food and pharma, for widespread use of outdated vaccine protocols, for being late to react to the pet-food recall and more".  Does that include bogus reiki and debunked acupuncture in animals?  Or is it just easier to delete posts on petconnection by people who challenge you to provide evidence for these bogus veterinary" methods?

lexipup April 23rd, 2009 07:27:12 PM

"You may be gracious enough to realize that Fotini though obviously good spelling & grammar, does not have full command of English, as most of us USA born."

There are so many things grammatically wrong with that statement that I don't think you should be commenting on anyone else's grasp of the English language.

Also, since it turns out the ponies died due to a pharmacy screwing up a compound of Vitamin B, maybe we can stop bashing the veterinary profession for at least the duration of this particular post.

Thanks.

Vet Tech April 23rd, 2009 07:58:07 PM

Probably time to take a close look at the Pharmacy profession after this nasty wake up call. Makes me wonder now how many times my prescription was the wrong thing or dosage.  Or slapped together so the employee could back to the storage room to continue making out with a co-worker.

Evet April 23rd, 2009 08:09:28 PM

Lexipup: I haven't deleted any such thing. You have problems, you come over and discuss it with Dr. Narda Robinson, since I'm presuming that's whose blog posts on PetConnection.com you're referring to. As a professor at the Colorado State University school of veterinary medicine, she'd notdoubt be happy to help you out with your charges against the efficacy of her treatment protocols. Evidence-based integrative medicine is her specialty, after all.What's yours, by the way?

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 08:14:23 PM

Gee, I go away for a while and look what happens. Everyone comes onto this site with their own opinions, personalities, beliefs and life experiences that shape how we view the world. And guess what? They are all different. I want to stand up for what is good in my profession, but I don't want to disount the ones who have sufferred from it. I have read the different anti-vet websites and I try to understand why you do it. I try to put myself in your shoes. I would like to poll those folks: What percentage of the vets in this country do you think are: 1.Excellent? 2. Good? 3. Fair? 4. Bad? 5. Inherently dishonest? 6.Incompetant? 7. Greedy? 8. Sadistic? 9. Incahoots with pet stores?

Hobson April 23rd, 2009 08:33:09 PM

Vet Tech anonymous: I have never claimed command spelling & grammar and have thus previously pointed that out many times....and I surely wouldn't make fun of someone likewise.

Pretty petty when you stoop to that level, and not regarding the content of a person's message, but how they "say" it. I put up a blog post, appropriate for you. Please feel free to "blast away"---though not as fun, I presume without an audience.

Quote of the day

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 23rd, 2009 08:37:29 PM

well gee does any one relly think that they killedall these expensive horses on purpose? cmon as far as a toxicology report i thought that it finds out why the horse died not who did it

jim hall April 23rd, 2009 08:41:30 PM

So let's see the problem wuz perhaps . . Inexperienced pharmacists? Deadline pressure? Not really paying attention?  Poorly run operation? Lack of a zero accidents policy? Poor standards of workmanship? Low pay? Not enough help to maintain the standard of perfection expected of professionals of this nature? Imported Pharmaceutical ingredients? Poor atitiude amongst staff? In a hurry to get off work and head to club?

Evet April 23rd, 2009 08:47:16 PM

Phew man almost approaching The Jungle 2.0

Evet April 23rd, 2009 08:48:40 PM

Hobson: I said the same thing, one person does a thread hijack and we all turn into nutsos. It would be hard to answer a question like that, but possibly rely on statistics of # of complaints received vs. # of lic. in-state practicing vets.

Of course, that wouldn't indicate if some complaints were received SEVERAL times about the same vet/clinic. That is a real issue, when every complaint "rises" to investigation so it can be SEALED.

sorry about the caps, I don't have italics or bold---so use alternatives.

Welcome back, BTW

-------------------------------

PJB: It isn't my place to comment about www.vetabuse.com "settlement", but let me hint you are way off---

Paul: Stefani isn't hateful, perhaps cynical via "learned" experience, just as someone would be with any experience, including purchasing a "lemon" of any sort, or victimized by any sort of services. One thing "we" did learn, there is absolutely NO accountabilty, nor justice in any state resources at all!

And it is one of the very few "professions" or careers, where repeated 'reported' infractions can occur without loss of anything.

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 23rd, 2009 08:55:15 PM

One thing that's good about the internet is it allows people to brawl without physically jumping on each other and tearing each others hair out.

Evet April 23rd, 2009 08:55:27 PM

Well, Gina, who does the deletions then?  Did Narda Robinson delete them?  If so, then that kind of negates the need to discuss it with her, yes?  It also kind of negates her ability to validate with any subjectiveness on the subject, doesn't it?  Methinks she knew she could get wonderful comments as long as they conformed to her position and beliefs, until of course someone challenged her. I asked my questions directly to HER on that blog and I was as polite about it as well. I've read numerous articles by Narda Robinson and I'm well aware of what her speciality is and who she is writing for.  While some of her articles focus on the truth of psuedoscience, an equal number focus on the absurd, that which she seems to support, WITHOUT EVIDENCE.  I don't care what her specialty is, she has an obligation to fully investigate and report the facts about what she claims. 

lexipup April 23rd, 2009 08:59:34 PM

Actually Barbara I just wanted opinions, no statistics. Best estimates from what you know and feel.

Hobson April 23rd, 2009 09:07:25 PM

Stefani, The particular product mentioned in the previous story (Biodyl) is not FDA approved.  However, it looks to me like all the individual ingredients exist in FDA approved forms.  Therefore, it would not be unlawful for a vet to prescribe and a compounding pharmacist to compound those approved ingredients into the same end formulation; although it wouldn't be Biodyl.  Essentially, the compounded version is a generic of the brand name product.  Compounding is also frequently done to create a variation from existing compounds.  Compounding still exists specifically to work from the individual ingredients but it does come with some higher risks of errors.  Anyone remember why George Bailey got slapped by the pharmacist?

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:07:50 PM

Evet, if we ever did all these folks in a ring we could sell a lotta tickets.

Hobson April 23rd, 2009 09:08:44 PM

Christie Keith and I oversee the comments on the PetConnection blog. Sometimes things get caught in the spam filter for reasons unknown ... and we don't know that's where they went.

Since you said you posted to that thread, I just went into the spam folden (more than 7,000 entries) and searched for "reiki." If you posted as "puppers" I found your comment and it has been "unspammed." You can now see it in the post's comment thread, and I will alert Dr. Robinson that it's there for her to respond to.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 09:10:22 PM

Forget to add: Link to the comment, here. My apologies for not realizing it got caught in the spam filters when you first accused me of deleting it. I knew I hadn't. I look forward to Dr. Robinson's response.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 09:15:34 PM

OK now it seems that things have changed. In case you've all missed it amid all the flaming comments, the truth is out: Franck's pharmacy admitted to compounding the wrong dose.

Human error. It happens. Nothing nefarious. Just negligent. Not grossly, mind you, just "humanly."

I'm actually sad for them. I know what good work they do on so many of my own cases. I've also learned a lot from Franck, himself, in my CE lectures. I can only hope he carries great insurance and that he doesn't guilt himself into obscurity. 

Life deals us all hard blows.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 23rd, 2009 09:16:48 PM

Hobson, have you chosen a venue?

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:18:12 PM

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-horses-dead-polo-wellington-palm-beach-042309,0,7796201.story

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:27:50 PM

Dr. Robinson has already responded  to your comment, by the way, now that we have freed it from the spam filter. Here's the post, and her comment is last on the thread.

Gina Spadafori April 23rd, 2009 09:31:51 PM

Hobson, thank you for trying to bring in some balanced perspective, which is always refreshing. I am one of those who have suffered from bad vets and also from the inadequate system of oversight. I have also encountered some outstanding vets, both in terms of knowledge and in terms of honesty and compassion. Unfortunately, I don't have a good intuitive feeling to answer your question, but as a statistical economist, I have a hunch that the curve is probably bell-shaped, as is the case in most random populations. This means that a small proportion (five percent or so) are outstanding and very bad (each) and the rest are in between, or good and fair. Many of these good and fair can be perfectly adequate in the majority of routine situations. Totally incompetent? Probably a very small proportion. Marginally incompetent, a greater than a very small proportion. I think the spread is similar to most other professions, or to repeat, bell-shaped. Incahoots with pet stores? I don't know that one. I do know about incahoots with pet food manufacturing. Vet school curricula are heavily influenced (and funded) by the pet food industry. Many vets are heavily influenced by the pet food industry perspective on nutrition, which is problematic. Many vets, however, and I have met and consulted at least two of those, haved sought to form an unbiased scientific perspective on nutrition, and it is very different from that of a mainstreem vet. So to speak of "vets" as a monolithic professional body is incorrect. There are many schools of thoughts among vets, as there are many different types of vets in terms of their competence and ethics.

Natalie Kramer April 23rd, 2009 09:32:07 PM

I believe Doc is referring to The School of Hard Knocks

Evet April 23rd, 2009 09:34:40 PM

Dr. K, I certainly understand you seeing it as mere negligence but I'll reserve judgment on that for now.  This is now the breaking news portion of the story and they haven't even disclosed which ingredient or how far off they were.  And, if one knows 20+ polo ponies are to be dosed, one might have an obligation to double or even triple check that formulation before sending it out the door.  Might even be a decent argument that eash dose (at least 21) should have been double checked.

Do you have a previous blog on compounding drugs?  It's an interesting topic and I'm curious how the vets view it.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:37:56 PM

And we'll revisit this argument . . . Palm Beach Post

Despite the fact that Vargas has been building a championship-caliber polo team for decades, it's unlikely that Franck's Pharamcy would be liable for any damages on top of the value of the horses.

"I don't think mental anguish is something that would be recoverable, that's more of a personal injury to a person," Galle said. "Here you have harm to personal property, that being the horses.

Evet April 23rd, 2009 09:44:04 PM

"Beckett, chief operating officer for Franck's Pharmacy in Ocala, Fla., would not say whether the incorrect amount was specified in the order that came from a Florida veterinarian" http://www.startribune.com/nation/43539127.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ

Well someone had to say it.  Yep, we may eventually have to come back to the as yet unnamed vet involved.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 09:53:10 PM

Barbara: I was not implying that you would make fun.  I was implying that you might accidentally condescend to those of us who may not be "USA born," as if it handicaps us in some way.  Meanwhile, you're admittedly not really any better at English and you have offered no excuse based on your nationality.  It's a little offensive, is all I'm saying.

Keeping on topic, some other things people have been saying here about the veterinary industry are also offensive.  Unfortunately human beings are prone to generalizing ("stereotyping," if you will) groups of people based on their relatively limited experiences, so those of you who have ever had a bad vet--or ever had a vet who made a mistake, even--tend to think of all vets as "evil" or "negligent" or whatever words you want to use.  I for one have seen way more mistakes from my HUMAN PHYSICIANS than I have from my veterinarians, but I don't go around posting blogs about how all MDs are idiots.

I apologize for my lack of diplomacy.  I'm American, so I'm naturally bad at it.

Vet Tech April 23rd, 2009 09:56:22 PM

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/local_news/epaper/2009/04/23/0423horsedeaths.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=76  Written by real reporters apparently; nicely trying to flesh out the issues instead of rapid fire sound bites.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 10:10:31 PM

Wouldn't hurt to throw back the curtain and have a real close look at the Horse Racing Industy.

Evet April 23rd, 2009 11:11:02 PM

Maybe it's time to go to moderated comments....lots of good info in some responses but annoying to go thru the hijackers to find it...

Just a thought...

LC April 23rd, 2009 11:22:07 PM

So, Gina, you "have taken the profession to task for conflicts of interest in food and pharma, for widespread use of outdated vaccine protocols, for being late to react to the pet-food recall and more". Does that include bogus reiki and debunked acupuncture in animals? Or is it just easier to delete posts on petconnection by people who challenge you to provide evidence for these bogus veterinary" methods?

Leaving aside the fact that no one deleted your comment, I'd like to point out that you didn't offer any cites whatsoever for your claim that reiki and acupuncture for animals have been "debunked." Please provide some cites. I love cites. Especially since my memory, from when medical journals were crossing my desk more regularly, was that acupuncture, at least, was standing up quite well in animal studies. Here's one cite: : Anesth Analg. 2009 Feb;108(2):635-40. Links Microcirculatory responses to acupuncture stimulation and phototherapy. I hope this link to the abstract will work: <a href=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19151301?ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum""Microcirculatory responses to acupuncture stimulation and phototherapy.</a>

If not, there's certainly enough information there for you to pull it up on Pubmed yourself.

Lis April 23rd, 2009 11:26:15 PM

Vet Tech: "tend to think of all vets as "evil" or "negligent" or whatever words you want to use"

I may not have great command of grammar, but I sure can read & suggest that you do. Never have I suggested nor has anyone else, anything close to "your quote" above.

And I was suggesting to the commenter about Fotini, as I have in the past, that she is not as up on word terms as one that has been raised & lived a lifetime in the US. It is not a SLAM to anyone, not to her nor any other foreign born/raised "American" OR "non-American" (actually, shouldn't it be US of A?). Next thing I'll see, is that I'm racist. Gosh, this really is out of hand

An interesting observation is that as many vets that are on the list, none seem as offended or irate as the clinic support staff is or others closely tied in, such as maybe shelter or rescue involvement, why would that be? Any ideas?

Perhaps, if a courageous MD started a blog,with various topics, we would see plenty of MD criticism as well by numerous patients or family members of malpractice victims?. I could start a USPS blog, bet that would make for great fun. Any IRS subscribers?

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 23rd, 2009 11:33:30 PM

As for my ‘settlement,” there was only one because the COWARD who sued me RAN the night before trial. We were ready, I was prepped, we had our boxes of files, a PP presentation, ALL the evidence, my brilliant testifying expert from A&M, and they waved the white flag big time, so the only thing left to do was settle because there was no way the freak was going to show up in court. He couldn’t risk getting on a witness stand after the deposition he gave, believe me. These filthy lily-livered gutless wonders didn’t even show their faces for the settlement announcement Mr. Lawyer, so what does that tell you? Does that tell you they were happy with it? The trial judge shook my hand and said he was looking forward to trying my case because he was “extremely curious to see how the plaintiffs were going to prove damages.” Yeah, no #&*X. The judge knew. My lawyers knew: These bush-league cowards had NOTHING. This was a textbook SLAPP suit for my testimony to a Senate commission and my exposure of the shenanigans of the state board. I wanted to post the settlement, believe me, but the attorneys would not permit it. It was sealed by the court and neither side can even talk about it. Suffice to say I was EXTREMELY pleased with it; interpret that as you will. What I will be scanning and posting, however, is the EXPERT REPORTS from my wonderful vet experts who tore this “doctor” a new one for what he did. One of them cited nine violations of the standard of care committed on ONE DAY ALONE. Is it any wonder he ran like the spineless freak that he is hours before he had to face me and my expert in court? (He didn’t have one, BTW, the one “expert” he did have bailed from the case two days before his court-ordered deposition.) He was also going to have to explain his crap records which stunk to high heaven, and his extremely problematic statements from deposition. In the words of my attorneys, which I think of every day, “Julie, you kicked his ass.” We beat back his endless attempts to get injunctions, to try to have me JAILED for godssakes, and other insanity that only a psycho lawyer could dream up when they know they don’t have SQUAT. And why on earth would I have a venue on my site, on Suki’s site that chronicles her unspeakable suffering, so that people like you can come and tear me apart? What kind of sick freak would be criticizing me for standing up to this monster after what he did? Suki beat this arrogant freak by keeping herself alive long enough to be seen by second opinion vets who KNEW what the freak had done. I beat this arrogant sack by refusing to back down to his legal threats to silence me. Don’t you EVER dare accuse me of being able to dish it out but not take it – you have NO freaking idea what I have taken in the past TEN YEARS because I trusted a piece of walking garbage who RAN in the end. Talk about somebody who can dish it out and not take it – where was Mr. BigVet on the day of reckoning? Why wasn’t he in court spewing forth his “evidence” that I had libeled him? Where was his big lawyer who had filed seven different claims against me, put me through endless discovery requests, thousands of pages of documents that gutted my timeand my work, put me through six and a half hours of deposition where I also kicked HER ass, according to my attys. Yeah. Right. Mr. Big Shot ran and hid when he realized that maybe his little "version" of events wasn't quite going to mesh with the EVIDENCE. I can only hope and pray that he suffers even a fraction of what my cat, my family, and I have been through at his hands and the hands of his psycho lawyer. I wish the same for anybody who supports or defends him. He has NO excuse and NO defense for what he did, and anybody who even thinks he does is as stupid and nuts as he is. He just thought he was going to scare me with his big money and his big ego and his big degrees, and it didn’t work. Those things mean nothing when you have the TRUTH. You bet I kicked this sorry, cowardly, arrogant, pompous ass to the curb, and I will tell Suki’s Story until the day I die and beyond. As much as it annoys people like you that I beat back a vet who couldn’t seem to get enough of causing me as much pain and grief as possible, I will never be silenced and I will never forget. YEPPERS, you can bet on it.

Julie "Suki's Story" vetabusenetwork.com April 24th, 2009 01:36:38 AM

Barbara, you do the USPS blog and I'll take on the IRS.  That way we can visit back and forth and swap stories.   "Next thing I'll see, is that I'm racist."  Oh, so tempting to jump the shark but no one would see the humor no matter how many smiley faces of "just kidding"s I used.

I keep trying to go back on topic but some days, some threads, some hijacks are just too tempting and then there's the ones posting "you're off topic" which is actually equally off topic and a just a different form of hijacking.  But I think I'll have to copy and paste this one before signing off as I think I sense the hand of an editor coming through the dark of night. :)

PJBoosinger April 24th, 2009 01:42:18 AM

"As for my ‘settlement," there was only one because the COWARD who sued me RAN the night before trial. We were ready, I was prepped, we had our boxes of files, a PP presentation, ALL the evidence, my brilliant testifying expert from A&M, and they waved the white flag big time, so the only thing left to do was settle because there was no way the freak was going to show up in court. He couldn't risk getting on a witness stand after the deposition he gave, believe me. These filthy lily-livered gutless wonders didn't even show their faces for the settlement announcement Mr. Lawyer, so what does that tell you?"

First, that's Ms. Lawyer :)  Next, I'm sorry but none of that really makes sense to me.  He ran?  You already have sworn depo?  What could they possibly have offered in settlement to make it worth NOT crucifying them at trial????  He didn't need to be there; trials in absentia are common.  You did all that and didn't go the last sprint to actually win?  I so don't understand that.

PJBoosinger April 24th, 2009 01:50:51 AM

Dr. K, i love what you do here.  I don't know how you find time to do this blog and all the other online stuff you do.  I really appreciate your work, and many times I like reading the comments.  There's a lot to be learned by others in your field (or soon to be), and other people from all walks of life.

However, I've had it. 

Other good sites have been ruined by the infighting of a few.  I'll be subscribing to the RSS, but I will miss out on the helpful comments people make on topics.

cheshire April 24th, 2009 07:41:09 AM

Back to the subject of the original post, I've just written a blog at the UK's Daily Telegraph which explains why a disaster like the polo ponies' deaths could NOT happen in the UK or Ireland. Sure, other similar disasters could happen for different reasons, but this specific incident simply could not have happened. Read it for yourself if you want to know why: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_wedderburn/blog/2009/04/24/why_the_us_polo_ponies_would_not_have_died_in_the_uk

And by the way Dr K, I do quote your well-written description of the incident at the start of my own blog - hope this is OK - you write very well :-)

Pete

Pete Wedderburn

pete the vet April 24th, 2009 08:30:52 AM

Interesting article Dr. Pete. I hope Dr. Patty writes about compounding in the U.S. Strikes me as a six-in-one situation. The visual of those horses succumbing to this "vitamin" is almost too much to bear.

CreatureofHabit April 24th, 2009 08:48:04 AM

<<He didn't need to be there; trials in absentia are common.>>

Trials in absentia? HE sued ME. I was the defendant, not him. This guy made all kinds of ridiculous claims against me, claimed I libeled and slandered him, libel per se, libel por quod, claimed I cost him business, invaded his privacy, disparaged his clinic, tortious interference, yadda yadda. Are you  telling me that you can bring a suit against someone, drag them through a legal hell of epic proportions, and then stay home and watch soap operas on the day of trial? If you say so, I believe you, but how does that work? Would my attys not have the right to slam his butt on a witness stand and make him outline in detail EXACTLY when and where I supposedly lied about him? Do I not have the right to face my accuser in court and make him meet the burden of proof? Kinda hard to do when the accuser has no spine and his lawyer is even worse.  SLAPP suits are not designed to be won. They are not even designed to go to trial. They are designed to scare, threaten, intimidate, bankrupt, drag on and on, and force someone into silence when speaking on matters of public concern. They just expected me to fold up, cower in a corner, and beg for my life back after using the legal system to try to shut me up. We essentially spit in his face, said bring it on, and that's when he ran. This was NEVER going to go to trial. I don't believe this waste of space EVER expected it would get this far. He thought he was going to write some checks and get my freedom of speech revoked or something; he's a full-fledged, card carrying idiot. Unfortunately, he's an idiot with money.  If there hadn't been an end to it (i.e., settlement), this guy had the bucks to keep this going for YEARS. Even if we had won at trial, he would have appealed like he appealed the loss of his injunction (and lost there too). It is impossible to describe the level of bottom-feeding scum that I was dealing with, but if you are a lawyer you should know exactly what I'm talking about -- and this was Big Rich scum. The worst kind. I wanted a trial. I wanted to watch this "doctor" be crushed under the weight of the truth for what he had done to Suki and me. But that was my anger talking at being put through this...for what? What was all of that about except to cause me even more unbearable pain because I dared to tell the truth about a vet and speak out about the travesty of a board system that protected him? I already knew what the guy was and what he had done; that's all on my site, which I protected and defended and that's all I cared about. My attys wisely advised me that if we didn't bring this to an end, it would go on for years, with more insane amendments to the suit (I think she was up to version four by the end), endless appeals, more b.s. motions and hearings, more discovery, etc.  But...they also stood by me and as I said, we were ready to go to trial, full boar, and my expert was coming in from A&M to tear this vet a new one.  The call came that night from the other side, talking settlement. It sure as hell didn't come from us and NEVER would have.  Sometimes I think we should have pushed them to the wall, but I'm telling you, this guy was hell bent on taking away my freedoms, and his lawyer, Cruella DeVil, went along with it and pulled every legal stunt out of her ass to keep it going and would have kept going as long as the checks cleared, I guess. Who knows. (She ran on the "god" platform when she ran her loooooosing campaign for chief justice of the 4th COA. She claimed God had called her to run, to put God back in the courts. Yeah, you heard right. That's the kind of chicken-fried nut we had to deal with, and a STOOOPID chicken-fried nut at that.) SLAPP suits are a different breed, as you know, but they are never filed by poor people- only the rich, powerful, well-connected, and arrogant. SLAPP suits are usually taken on by ambulance-chasers who can smell a rich sucker with a hard-on a mile away. I was lucky and blessed to have wonderful, classy, highly respected and yes, very powerful attys who believe in First Amendment; once we beat back the injunction (twice), we had already won. All the rest was b.s. Sorry, I thought you were a man. Thank you for your comments.

Julie April 24th, 2009 09:25:27 AM

Julie, OK, he sued you.  He doesn't show, you do.  Default judgment and you prove up your damages for defending the suit and get judgment for that.  His lawyer doesn't show?  Same deal and you might even get the lawyer sanctioned.  He doesn't pay?  You lien everything he owns.  If you had a counter claim in there, you'd get to put on evidence for that which might even include his depo testimony.  Yeah, you don't get the Perry Mason moment of him on the stand but it wouldn't have been a Perry Mason moment anyway, those are rare.  If you're satisfied with the result, that's all that counts as it was your lawsuit (well, your defense of it).  True that SLAPP suits aren't designed to be won but usually the defense of them is.  As a lawyer, after all that, I would have wanted that trial date in court; it's only a few more hours, rather minor investment at that point; and you get a judgment instead of a settlement w/dismissal which is generally preferable IMO.

You earlier said it was literally the eve of trial but you also say your attorneys were talking about more amendments, etc.  Clearly I'm working with what you provide but those two statements are a bit inconsistent; not impossible, but certainly improbable.

"Are you telling me that you can bring a suit against someone, drag them through a legal hell of epic proportions, and then stay home and watch soap operas on the day of trial?"  Yes.  There should be repercussions but yes people can and do do this, regularly.  I've said it before and will again.  The legal system SUCKS.  Surviving protracted litigation may leave you with a very special kind of PTSD as the cherry on top.

PJBoosinger April 24th, 2009 10:21:41 AM

Julie, what a harrowing story! I am so glad and grateful there are people like you, who stand up for the truth and the freedom of speach. Sorry it came at such cost. And to those of you who find it convenient to declare our statements "off-topic," they are not. The topic was on the ponies who died as a result of mistakes, this time (as it appears) on the part of the pharmacy. Our posts are on the right of our animals to safety, including in this and similar cases, on our rights (and obligations) to defend our animals' rights to safety, and on our rights to free speach when animals' safety is compromised.

Natalie Kramer April 24th, 2009 10:33:23 AM

Pete, Enjoyed your commentary but question this statement: "There's no tradition for this type of prescribing in the UK".  If I recall correctly, the concept and tradition of US compounding came to us from the UK.  While I understand your support of the system in place in the UK as it does the things you specify, I respectfully disagree and wonder how many animals suffer because they're denied access to a broader range of potential treatments.  Seems to me it's a trade off and I'm not persuaded that taking items out of the arsenal is the best choice (although I certainly support providing information and getting informed consent, with either system).

PJBoosinger April 24th, 2009 10:55:18 AM

PJ, I hear you, and it would take hours and hours to explain everything although you can probably figure it out.  The scenario you describe would certainly have worked had it played out that way, but it was too much of a risk because of the insanity of everything that had occurred up to that point . Problem is, we were dealing with what can only be described as what I consider, IMH and uneducated opinion,  to be an abuse of the legal system and somebody who knew how to work it. Frankly, when they waved the white flag, we saw a perfect opportunity to shut THEM down and close all the holes. My lead atty did that the day of the announcement in court. I wish I had that transcript to show you lol, but he closed and sealed EVERY hole these weasels could have crawled through had they been so inclined to come back at a later date saying we appeared in court without them, etc. You can't imagine what Cruella could come up with on a moment's notice.  And yes, my second chair atty had, in his briefcase, the day of the trial, a motion to file on the spot had she reneged on the settlement or tried to pull any kind of stunt and claim they were now ready for trial after making a deal the night before. As for the amendments being improbable, all I can say is that the improbable happened at every turn here. I was appalled at what people with money could do to someone who had nothing. I have nothing - no property, no money, no nothing. I have a 10 year old car. That is the extent of my assets. This fight over the years, starting in 1999, has cost me everything. I'm not complaining, it's just a fact. There was another factor here - my attys were working pro bono. Hundreds of hours for a lead atty (founding partner in the firm) and second chair, the resources of one of the top law firms in the state, paralegals, secretaries, deposition services, couriers, court costs, postage, copies, everything. They were at my service, literally. I had the support of some of the best people in the land, legally, and I thank God every day for them.  I had to be fair to them, although as attys you can imagine they loved the fight. :-), especially in a case where someone was attempting to permanently silence me . But as this dragged on and on, I felt so guilty that my stubbornness could result in more years of bullshit (there's really no other word for it). What if we had gone to trial and lost? Juries are a crap shoot no matter how much evidence you have. We would have appealed. Or they would have if we had won. And on and on. I can't convey to you the nature of this vet and the amount of financial resources he had. As tempting as it was to say no to settlement, I had to consider the very real possibility that more years and more resources would be contributed by these very kind, very wonderful lawyers who, as I said, were willing to stand by me all the way to the Supremes, if need be.  But I needed to be fair, as much as yes, I wanted my Perry Mason moment lol. It wasn't meant to be, and that's okay. I won in every way that was important to me, to my web site, to my cause, and to the people that I help to educate about what can happen to them and their pets at the vet's office and at the board level. More importantly, I'm pretty sure it kept other victims from being sued, when vets saw that maybe going after their clients in court wouldn't be such a good idea after all.  I vowed to list on my site the name of EVERY vet who sues their own clients. If that's the kind of publicity vets want, I'm more than happy to oblige. :-) BTW, no doubt on the PTSD. Absolutely no doubt at all. I'm working on it. :-)

Julie April 24th, 2009 11:04:13 AM

That's a good point PJ. The tight regulation of medicines in Europe has pros and cons. For every "polo pony" saved, there may be a thousand dogs that suffer continued skin disease because their owner cannot afford the expensive licensed drug (whereas they could have perhaps afforded the cheaper, non-licensed equivalent that we're not allowed to use over here).

Sure, vets would love not to be regulated, but the powers-that-be err on the "protection" side in Europe. I think it's a good example of a cultural difference between Europe and USA. Here in Ireland, we often talk about political decisions being more towards "Berlin" (i.e. regulated, interventionist, more state control) or towards "Boston" (i.e. free to do as people wish, non-interventionist, less state control)

Perhaps compounding pharmacies did start in the UK historically but there haven't been any in action for decades.... as far as I know.

Pete the vet April 24th, 2009 11:04:19 AM

Pete: I tried to post a comment on your site but was unable to complete my login (doesn't take my email address). Don't sweat it, though.

My take on your piece (which was great and I thank you for the mention), is that compounding of drugs doesn't make the drug less expensive. In fact, compounding usually increases the price. The reason most veterinarians turn so often to compounding pharmacies has to do with drug delivery. When my patients can't take pills (or when my clients can't deliver them), I can easily have liquid drugs made to order. I can even have drugs included in topical gel formats. This has been a life-saver, quite literally, for thousands of my patients over the years. 

But your point stands. Franck's pharmacy claims (on its website) that it caters to those for whom drugs and products are no longer available. The truth is that it also manufactures "potions" that are equivalent to products that are otherwise unavailable in the US. I don't believe this is legal for drugs that are not permissible in the US, however it is acceptable for "nutraceuticals" such as these horses received. And mistakes are more common in these individualized settings. 

As to the looser regs on drugs in the US, I'm all for it. I once spent some time as a lobbyist for the AVMA, during which time I campaigned for these. Prior to this, our laws were similar to yours. In fact, they were tighter. Veterinarians could be sanctioned for using any off-label drugs. We can now use off-label drugs as long as it's considered to meet the almighty  "standard of care." Currently, it's only "questionably illegal" to use drugs which also have veterinary labeling for the species in question. In other words, I may still be sanctioned for prescribing generic meloxicam (much, much cheaper!!) when Metacam is available for pets. I don't believe our rules are that much laxer than yours on this front. And I do believe that the US's version may be more dangerous in some cases, but on balance, they seem more humane--to me.

Why? Because it means that I can save my clients money. It very often makes a difference between treatment and no treatment. For that, I'm proud of our approach. 

But again, your point is well taken. This tragedy would not have happened in the UK. Well put.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 24th, 2009 11:40:27 AM

Pete, I cracked up at 'Berlin or Boston', as Boston is probably the most left/blue/idealist/social-ist leaning of the major cities in the United States. But is has a nice ring. I'm not sure what else would work. 'Berlin or Boise'? Lol.

CreatureofHabit April 24th, 2009 12:24:17 PM

Gina, I have taken this to Narda Robinson's other post.

I appreciate that you put the post back up but I'm sorry, I do not believe for a minute that it wasn't deleted.  I was posted and remained on the site for a short time, and then disappeared.  No indication that any posts are in que for moderation prior to posting.  Your attitude on the other post today is unwarranted, you seem to think I had some nasty agenda to cause trouble on the blog, which I certainly did not.  Being open to challenge regarding a rather dubious "veternary" method should be amoung the top priorities as a vet, should it not?

lexipup April 24th, 2009 01:38:05 PM

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Dr K

Here in Europe, vets would love to have a more lax regulatory regime, and we'd love to have access to compounding pharmacies, for the reasons that you mention. You see, our animal medicine regulations were actually put in place to prevent drug residues ending up in human food, and the "companion animal" lobby does not have enough clout to make politicians realise that there's really no need for such strict control of the drugs used in pets. Maybe one day our lobby will be able to get things relaxed, but at the moment, "Europe" has no taste for changing this side of things. We just need to work with the way it is, at the cost of less flexibility of choice of medicine, and higher cost of drugs for pet owners.

Creature of habit - yes, it's probably just the sound of "Berlin or Boston" which has made the media here fond of the phrase!

Pete the Vet April 24th, 2009 01:42:01 PM

Dr. Pete Wedderburn

Hopefully, soon my military family and I will return to Europe (where I am originally from), and will put my companions' health back into European vets' hands again! I do trust you and all European vets for reasons I have explained in past comments and for reasons you stated in your blog concerning the polo ponnies' death.

Asproolee’s Story

Fotini April 24th, 2009 02:22:31 PM

I appreciate that you put the post back up but I'm sorry, I do not believe for a minute that it wasn't deleted.

---

What you believe is your business, however wrong.  The post was released from the spam filter. If you believe we delete comments because they offer a different point of view, then you don't read our blog very often.

I'm sure Dr. Robinson will be answering your comments soon.

Gina Spadafori April 24th, 2009 04:19:03 PM

I see no need to defend any further personal attacks...and get to jump back in on the topic! Yippee!

I recently had to have Pearl on a "compounded antibiotic" withdrawn from the human market---chloroamphenicol ---sorry is the spelling is wrong. And yes, there is only one compounding pharmacy nearby. It was a bit "scary", I watched her closely, but the alternatives listed side effects, didn't sound much better. She had a dual resistant UTI, one commonly considered "hospital-based" (as in humans that is).

Pete, it just dawned on me...I have a club friend in Denmark that cited that "supplements" are no longer legal---this is what you mean?? I'll go visit your blog to read up. Thanks for commenting, it is also nice just to hear a European based POV !

updated blog on Rescue Scotties needing special homes

Barbara A. Albright/NH April 24th, 2009 04:22:43 PM

I believe a compounding error of a drug IS grossly negilent...not just "human error." If someone can't make a drug correctly....GET OUT OF THE PHARMACY. There are NO room for errors in a pharmacy..Period...end of story. Everything should be checked, doubled checked and triple checked. Whether it is a human or animal pharmacy. This is deplorable and completely unacceptable and unprofessional and irresponbile!

Lisa April 24th, 2009 09:47:22 PM

Lisa: I did not mean to defend the pharmacy in a way that should release it from liability. Legally, it may be considered "gross" or "simple" negligence, depending on the facts of the case--that is, if it comes down to the pharmacy's error. It may still be considered primarily the veterinarian's error if the amounts requested were incorrect.

In the latter case, I don't know whether the pharmacy will also be considered partially liable, but it seems likely to me. A pharmacy should have some understanding of the commonly administered doses. That's why I commonly get calls from regular pharmacies related to my dosing of certain drugs. Human pharmacies are expected not to properly understand non-human dosing and they're doing good work when they call me to make sure my requested amounts are correct. Veterinary pharmacies (like Franck's) should know better.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 25th, 2009 07:41:25 AM

Lisa: I did not mean to defend the pharmacy in a way that should release it from liability. Legally, it may be considered "gross" or "simple" negligence, depending on the facts of the case--that is, if it comes down to the pharmacy's error. It may still be considered primarily the veterinarian's error if the amounts requested were incorrect.

In the latter case, I don't know whether the pharmacy will also be considered partially liable, but it seems likely to me. A pharmacy should have some understanding of the commonly administered doses. That's why I commonly get calls from regular pharmacies related to my dosing of certain drugs. Human pharmacies are expected not to properly understand non-human dosing and they're doing good work when they call me to make sure my requested amounts are correct. Veterinary pharmacies (like Franck's) should know better.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 25th, 2009 07:41:38 AM

Fotini, when you say "I trust you and all european Vets" be careful, while their training and regulations may be a little different, they have their share of bad apples too. I have firsthand knowledge of that. When choosing a professional,I like to go about things with the philosophy, "Trust, but verify"

Hobson April 25th, 2009 08:50:24 AM

"...compounding of drugs doesn't make the drug less expensive. In fact, compounding usually increases the price"

Yes, that's true, if the compounded drug is being produced ethically.  But to cite a common example from equine veterinary medicine: if compounded, flavored phenylbutazone (aka bute) powder were created by crushing bute tabs and adding flavoring, cost should = regular price of bute tabs + cost of flavoring/crushing.  But compounding pharmacies make the bute powder from bulk materials, frequently purchased from countries like China or India.  Cost to veterinarians = less than the cost of either of the two FDA-approved forms of bute powder (apple-flavored SuperiorBute and citrus-flavored A&G bute powder).  The same is true for compounded flunixin paste, which is the illegally-produced version of Banamine paste.  I can tell you that the cost of the knock-off compounded "flunixin paste" garbage is less than half what I pay for brand-name Banamine paste, because I received an unsolicited fax from a compounding pharmacy trying for my business not long ago.  That compounding pharmacy, like many others, was offering deals if I bought 10, 20 or 50 units... which is illegal, because compounded drugs are supposed to be ordered for a specific patient.  I see both of the aforementioned compounded products all the time out on farms I visit; more than one of my colleagues in my region sell it routinely.  Most clients don't ask what they've been sold.  But some had no problem chastising me for selling only bute tabs and bute paste, not powder, before the two aforementioned FDA-approved products were offered in 2006-07 (? IIRC).

If all veterinarians stopped purchasing illegally compounded products from pharmacies, pharmacies would stop manufacturing products they shouldn't.  Legal compounding is a different issue altogether, and I have no problem with legally compounded drugs.

whodunit April 25th, 2009 10:29:11 AM

Hobson,

Believe me, I have verified it--a 10-year personal experience with Greek, Italian, German, and military vets.  Their approach is conservative--no rush, rush diagnoses, treatments and unnecessary surgeries!  Additionally, medication distribution and use is very closely scrutinized by the European Union!

Asproolee's Story

Fotini April 25th, 2009 11:40:55 AM

What is your opinion of off-label uses of drugs in the treatment of sporting animals?

I know of many humans who use DMSO on themselves as well as their equine companions (and even canines) for various joint and muscles maladies.  As far as I can find out, DMSO, which was originally used in making paper, acts on the body as a carrier- it enhances absorption of other substances on the skin.

Almost every farm store sells it, yet it is labeled only for use as a solvent etc. 

To me, I see this as a potential cause of more harm in the hands of those who don't know the details of how it works.  I have heard of more than one case of it causing harm to humans and equines because they had something on their skin that they did not wash off ebfore applying DMSO, and the enhanced absorption caused problems and toxicities.

Jen April 27th, 2009 10:35:24 AM

Jen: As long as the off-label products used conform to the standard of medical care the veterinary establishment deems acceptable (considering safety and efficacy), it's all good. If we didn't have the capacity to use drugs off label, our drug arsenal would be a fraction of it's current size and far fewer pets would have access to life-saving drugs. 

Dr. Patty Khuly April 27th, 2009 12:50:30 PM

"After the death of 21 horses in Florida, the United States Polo Association says it will examine safeguards for polo horses, including developing a prohibited substance policy."  http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/other/story/1018765.html

Well, that tends to indicate there is no CURRENT prohibited substance policy.

PJBoosinger April 28th, 2009 12:43:38 PM

"In an April 22 story about 21 polo horses that died in Florida, The Associated Press reported erroneously that the Food and Drug Administration had refused to approve the French-made supplement Biodyl for use in the U.S. The manufacturer has never submitted the supplement for approval."  http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation/AP/story/1014504.html

It was the AP's fault, not ours. LOL Miami Herald.  How about nominal fact checking before publishing?

PJBoosinger April 28th, 2009 01:09:50 PM

A colleague of mine has worked with animals for over 40 years. His partner in his animal care business and him have travelled the world, working with champions of all breeds. From their personal eye-witness accounts---- they visited "farms" where stray dogs were kept in kennels, in huge barns. These dogs were being drained of blood. The blood was then being used to "dope" horses for races. This was in Europe and in the U.S.. The dog's corpses were disposed of. Also, older or retired hoses were used. "Doping" is just putting more blood into another animal before a race. The concern at the time, was--- what if the dogs or older horses being used for blood--- had diseases or viruses? The blood was sold to the vet's doping the animals. I just wanted to offer you this information that this kind of practice is common and does happen. 

Dr. Jones April 28th, 2009 04:37:52 PM

Wouldn't the use of another species blood cause a massive reaction? I would not think this was plausible, the foreign proteins ought to make the horses immune system go bezerk.

JenniferJ April 28th, 2009 11:12:02 PM

blood is blood is blood, it's those darn antigens (I think)

http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Related_blood_group_factors_in_animals

PJBoosinger April 29th, 2009 04:16:16 PM

Yeah, but how would you scrub them out? 

You cannot clean one type of human red blood cell to give to someone with an incompatible type.

Plasma can can be given to people with different blood types but not the red cells which are the whole point of doping.

I do not see how you could give canine red blood cells to equines without major league if not fatal reactions.

If it is being done somehow I'd love to know the science behind it 

JenniferJ April 30th, 2009 12:45:58 AM

From that article and some others I've skimmed, it appears that some blood types are compatible between species.  They know so much more now than what I was taught years and years ago.  I want to know more too but most of the articles are sufficiently technical that they're over my head.

PJBoosinger April 30th, 2009 04:15:54 PM

I'm awash in physicians in the family, including one who is a hematologist/oncologist. I'll see if he knows anything about it. I'm still frankly a bit skeptical. According to my husbands brother, who worked with kids in UCLA's transplant program, kidneys etc... can be made more compatible for transplant by thoroughly scrubbing antigens, but step one in that is removal of as many red blood cells from the donor as possible.

Assuring a safe transfusion between species would, I would think, require pretty sophisticated screening procedures so as not to kill the animal someone was trying to performance enhance

We have "interesting" Thanksgiving dinner conversations in my family. :-D Doctors don't hesitate to bring up pretty funky or disgusting things. 

JenniferJ April 30th, 2009 04:26:52 PM

My son did recovery of body parts for transplant & research for 3 years.  Funky dinner talk here too :)  I'd ask him about this (and he probably knows the answer) but I wouldn't understand the three hour explanation that came with it and he hasn't gotten sufficiently advanced in his own knowledge to dumb it back down for people like me.

PJBoosinger April 30th, 2009 10:27:48 PM

OK, the long and short of it seems to be that it could work, in theory, but it would require a very high level of expertise and be hideously expensive.

The gist was that individual animals have survived the process and recovered "in spite of" the transfusion, not because of it.

Far far more effective to use blood from the same species that is type matched. Even safer and simpler would be to collect blood from the racing or performance animal, freeze it and auto-transfuse at the desired time.

I would not be shocked, sadly, to find out that dogs were being kept and used as described to provide blood products for research to companies or research centers. People do craptastic stuff all the time it seems.

Apparently there is work underway to develop transgenic pigs with genetically compatible "human" blood that could be used instead of relying strictly on human donors. In the same vein as developing transgenic pigs with human genes to harvest organs from. 

JenniferJ May 1st, 2009 12:19:29 AM

Thanks for the understandable update!!!

"hideously expensive"  Well, we are talking about Polo Ponies!

"craptastic stuff"  I just watched a PBS special about how we're harvesting crabs, bleeding them, and putting them back for human benefit but to their detriment and apparently it may cause the complete loss of at least two species; may be too late to "fix" it!

And have you seen the glow in the dark puppies???

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I understand that the glow is even obvious in their toe nails in regular light, 

Poor little things, I hope that they get some quality of life

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