I'm becoming dazed and confused

Evet April 23rd, 2009 11:16:52 AM

Cool. Great starting point. I'm going to blog about it on Mike's site. Although the math gave me a headache.

PaulaO April 23rd, 2009 11:28:01 AM

Y'all have already converted me.  Measure everything, feed less, run them more!  And darned if it didn't work wonders around here :)  House closing next week.  Can't wait until I have a yard so I don't have to do ALL the running with them.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 11:37:18 AM

PJ- I THOUGHT the same thing about my yard. And let me tell you....dogs don't just get up and go outside and run around ALL by themselves. You'll STILL have to go run with them! Or at least throw a few fetch toys! Congrats on the house!

Kara April 23rd, 2009 11:44:42 AM

English major here. I can't add or multiply my way out of a paper bag. :) I just asked my vet how much my dog should eat, and she said a 1/3 measuring cup of kibble twice a day, so that's what I feed her. Then Daisy gets a daily walk and small cookie or two and she's right on her target weight. No need for math! :)

Shasta April 23rd, 2009 12:00:50 PM

Kara, Yeah, I've had a yard before so I know they'll only do "some" on their own.  I'll be thrilled if they'll chase thrown balls and toys once in a while.  There are livestock within the sight line of the yard so they'll probably run up and down the fence line for at least a bit :)  Thanks for the congrats, let the remodeling begin :)

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 12:03:19 PM

Just a FWIW--it got easier for me to lose weight when I started keeping a food diary--what a great idea to use with pets.  I have a few people I'm going to try that with.

DrSteggy April 23rd, 2009 12:05:41 PM

We just finished our advanced small animal nutrition elective, where I learned something that I'd never considered with weight loss diets. With a lot of diets (especially protein-restricted senior diets), once you restrict the calories down to your dog's DER, you can also put them at risk of protein malnutrition.

The way to figure out how many grams of protein your dog is getting is to try and get a list of nutrients by "per 100 kcal". Companies never put it on the bag, but it's listed in product guides, and Natura gave it to me over the phone. OSU has a nice guide with gm/100kcal listed for lots of foods. Looking at Winnie's food, since her DER was about 300 kcal and her protein requirement was about 20 grams per day, I had to find a food that had at least 6.6 grams of protein per 100 kcal. For comparison, Nutro Ultra for weight management has ~4.8 gm protein per 100 kcal, Hills w/d has 5.8 gm/100 kcal, and EVO Reduced Fat has 14.5 gm/100 kcal.

It can be even harder for cats, who have a minimum protein requirement twice that of dogs but often require very few calories when they get older and less active.

This is why I steer clear of recommendations to replace half the diet with something calorie-poor, like green beans. You replace calories, sure, but green beans are low in protein, and your dog will start losing lean muscle mass rather than fat as he goes into protein malnutrition. You have to be really careful and make sure the pet is still getting enough protein every day.

Megan April 23rd, 2009 12:15:08 PM

I have found success with most clients/pets with a simpler approach. First establish obesity is an issue with the entire family unit. Second measure and write down what is actually consumed for a time period of usually 30 days. Re weigh. If the patient has gained, then reduce the amount by 5-10%. If the patient has maintained the same weight and is obese, reduce the amount by 5%. If the patient has lost weight, continue feeding without changes. Third, repeat weighing periodically and continue with gradual changes in food intake adjusted to the actual weight changes. The end goal is a patient with normal soft tissue coverage over the ribs and spinal column. Normal coverage to me is being able to easily find the ribs with the back of my fingers, but not being able to clearly make them out visually when the pet is wet. If the patient does not respond with weight loss after 60 days, schedule a reevaluation. This method relies on the patient’s actual intake and actual caloric requirement to be balanced without the use of equations and estimations involving either the food or the patient.

K Mondon April 23rd, 2009 12:16:58 PM

Activity and exercise is the magic medicine.

Evet April 23rd, 2009 12:39:12 PM

Megan - thanks for the link to the OSU kcal calculator. It is great! I had been casually looking for one, as I was wanting to compare various dog foods. I still have not found a "kcal calculator", or formula, though I know there must be one. It is curious to me, the wide range in the amount of kcals/cup from one brand/flavor to the next. You can change dog foods and double/halve the caloric intake if you are not watching. Not to mention the dog looking at you funny when their ration goes from 1 cup to 1/2 cup!

eli April 23rd, 2009 12:43:26 PM

K Mondon: I agree that simpler is better. Your way is great. I'm a math nerd, though. And I'm a calorie counter. If I look and see how many calories is in something, it usually means I won't consume it. I think some clients are like that, too.

In any case, actually keeping a diary of the pet's dietary intake (and exercise, in owner-active minutes) is the KEY. What I love is then being able to do some easy calculations (for me, anyway) and tell people approximately how much they're overfeeding. It's always a light-bulb moment. Makes me happy!

Dr. Patty Khuly April 23rd, 2009 12:46:57 PM

And Megan: Thank you so much for that point on protein. This is crucial because so many of our dogs on reduced weight foods are seriously at risk of weight gain when their calories are even modestly cut (if, as you point out, it also means they aren't taking in enough protein). In these cases, the animals may actually become more lethargic and fail to build sufficient muscle through exercise, all while remaining perpetually hungry.

That's why the kind of food animals are offered during weight loss is especially crucial. Love the calculation--I'd been guessing on that one until now.

Dr. Patty Khuly April 23rd, 2009 12:48:26 PM

Megan, I'm with you.  Increasing the proportion of lean protein and reducing the overall amount is what is working for my dogs.  They're also less hungry and having fewer other issues, like allergies.

Question: Is that "minimum crude protein" really the minimum or is it understated like RDAs for humans?

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 12:49:05 PM

@Megan -- excellent point. I've visited OSU's page before, but they only list food that I'd never feed my dogs.  =7

@Dr. K:  What is the latest & greatest regarding protein restriction & kidney disease?  It seems like any time I ask, I get an impassioned answer, but no actual studies.  Back when I was going to vet conferences, the Hills folks were still telling us that protein restriction was the way to go.  Since then, the dogs I've had are all athletes, and even as they age, they're still running.  Their labs might start tilting to the loss of kidney function, but... they're still running, still using that protein.  So in kidney-compromised patients, a couch potato might not have the protein needs & a protein-restricted diet may be the way to go.  It's not that simple for a working dog.

FWIW, I did feed my 14 year old restricted-protein diet before he had to go to the bridge. At that point he wasn't running all that much anyway.  But maybe he wasn't running because he'd lost too much muscle mass?  Chicken & egg problem here.

Also FWIW, a vet friend who also has working sighthounds SWORE by Iams & Eukanuba products for her dogs; her justification was that the big food manufacturers are the ones doing the research, they know what they're doing, they can run all these food trials, etc.  We didn't follow her advice, even though I think highly of her opinion.

Julie in OH April 23rd, 2009 12:50:58 PM

I was unaware of the formula, thanks.

I did the math for all 4 of my dogs.  The chubbyshould-be-40-pounder is getting the amount the formula says he should get, based on his ideal weight and the cal/cup according to the manuf website.  The 50 and 60 pounders, good weights both, are getting less than the formula says (1/3 cup and 3/4 cup, respectively), the 25-pounder, also good weight, is getting more (by 1/4 cup).

Which is pretty much what I've always found with food recommendations: the ideal has not a lot to do with the reality.  When I feed based on the amount required to keep them at a good weight, then we do fine.  If I follow the feeding suggestions on the bag, dogs lose or gain weight they shouldn't.  Same with our horses; they get fed based on individual need, not by calculations according to the bag.

This does mean that, since the mineral/nutrients are intended to be fed at the suggested rate, my animals may not be getting the right balance of these in their diets.  Annoying.  Fortunately with the horses, we now have a "ration balancer"--each horse gets 1 lb of this stuff a day, and it has all their protein/minerals/vitamins/etc.  If they need more overall calories to stay at a good weight, they get feed that's mostly carbs and fiber, not protein or fat and we don't have to worry so much about the overall nutrition balance.

I wish there were such a ting for dogs, but I haven't seen any.

Galadriel April 23rd, 2009 01:12:56 PM

This makes perfect sense to me--I've lost weight myself through calorie counting, using The Daily Plate, located at livestrong.com.  The great thing about a tool like the Daily Plate is that most of the foods I eat are already in its database, and so it does all of the math for me.  All I had to do was be aware of the quantities of food I was eating, and adjust accordingly once I had a sense of how much calories a particular food was likely to contain.  An equivalent for pets would be a great thing--or maybe pet owners could just start sneakily entering pet foods into the database and registering their pets as users ;-)

regina April 23rd, 2009 01:51:17 PM

I'm struggling with this issue now, as I have a new dog who is much smaller than my last dog, and figuring out how much to feed her has been a challenge.

She gets a lot of treats, which I use in clicker training, rewarding her for learning to use the dog door, getting her teeth brushed, nails done, other behaviors that I want to encourage, etc. I use small treats (I even cut the little round Zuke's treats in half), and try to stick to treats that appear to be fairly low-calorie, but it's still impossible for me to figure out how many kcal she's getting from these treats. She's a small dog (11 lbs), which makes it harder.

It would be great if kcal had to be listed on all food and treat packages.

Mary Straus April 23rd, 2009 02:02:13 PM

Great and I actually understand it.  Now, how do you achieve optimum weight in a multi-cat household?  I have 3 cats, 1 fatso, 1 not heavy/but not skinny, and 1 with the metabolism of a hummingbird!  The not heavy/but not skinny cat likes to go outside and gets plenty of exercise and he has a good appetite.  The fatso does not really eat all that much, but is a couch potato.  The hummingbird eats like horse and doesn't gain an ounce.  I have communal feeder.  No point in individual bowls, everyone eats out everyone else's bowl.  All the cats are neutered, 2 males and 1 female and the female is the fatso.  So, how do I reduce my fatty's weight without locking her up in a cage?       

MariaL April 23rd, 2009 02:05:48 PM

I actually did this before my two kitties went in for their annual vet visit in March.  I dutifully weighed, averaged, tracked, etc. and came up with a pretty good estimate of how much the two of them were eating per lb. (they're both big cats, just by frame, one is 15 lbs. and still has the "waist" that experts have you look for when determining if a cat is overweight... she's also one solid muscle; the other is 14 lbs, gigantic, and feels absolutely bird-boned).  I think they could each afford to loose 1-2 lbs slooowly and vet agreed.

I was so pleased when my vet left to go get a calculator and charts.  It is hard in a multi-cat household and she was very understanding when I said that I couldn't reduce wet food because I split the can down the middle, give each girl half, and I'm not getting fussier than that thankyouverymuch.  But she did agree that I could start gradually reducing the dry food I leave out.  I already have a cheapo set of measuring cups and playing around with when the dry food went out also helped.  They get wet food when I come home from work and are generally not interested in the dry stuff much the rest of the evening.  Right now 3/4 - 1 cup of dry food put out at 7:30 a.m. when I leave for work will last a full 24 hours.  Took us a bit to get there, now I just have to gradually work them down to 2/3 cup.  I think they do most of their munching overnight with some light snacking during the afternoon.

I feel your pain Maria.  My sis has two rescues, both males, and one gets very agressive when not free-fed; poor guy has serious food security issues.  She's decided at this point, when no one has weight issues, that it's not worth her sanity or the other cat's health to bother.

Anne April 23rd, 2009 02:48:45 PM

Thank you to Dr. K and her Dolittlers who post reference links and formulas.  Despite my flip first posting, on this topic I learn a lot here and, although the math would give me a headache, I can (and do) feed formulas into Excel and Filemaker and they'll do the work for me so keep them coming.

PJBoosinger April 23rd, 2009 03:24:12 PM

Wow, thank you for sharing.  My pup definitely needs a calorie decrease. 

janaaries April 23rd, 2009 03:54:23 PM

Maria, I have three cats, one who I've had a very hard time getting up to a reasonable weight (5.5lbs), one who will eat as much as she can get her paws on and will balloon out given the first chance (9lbs) and one who will get tubby if I let her but does a pretty good job overall of self-regulating (8.5lbs).

The key thing in regulating weights in a multicat household is to feed meals instead of free feeding and to supervise during meal time. I feed a raw diet, so I started with a baseline of 3% per day of ideal body weight for each cat and then adjusted from there (I have no idea where you would start with a commercial canned or dry diet.)

As little as half an ounce each day can make a big difference, and when I make adjustments, I usually do them in half ounce increments. Clover, my biggest kitty, gets 3.5oz of food per day and maintains her ideal weight (at 10 months old, she was less than 8 lbs and was eating 8oz a day, so it really is important to observe regularly and adjust as needed.) 4oz of food and she starts getting fat. Violet, my middle cat also gets 3.5oz a day and stays beautifully lean. Cajun, my tiny skinny girl, gets 4oz a day and I'll probably be upping that soon, as I'd like to see her put on a bit more and she's been very difficult to put weight on to.

Each cat has their own feeding area in the kitchen, so there is no sharing dishes or stealing of food. They get two meals a day, 12 hours apart. By taking away the constant food they're enthusiastic about their meals and I don't have to worry about them taking two bites and then wandering away while another cat scarfs down a second dinner. I hang out in the kitchen and supervise everyone for the 5 minutes or so it takes everyone to eat. Other than the amounts, everyone gets the same thing.

Regulating intake is really the key to getting your obese cat to loose weight. Some cats self regulate well, but many others don't, which means you have to be proactive and regulate for them. Free feeding is convenient, but just a bad idea, imo.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com April 23rd, 2009 04:50:32 PM

I would love to see a similar post on cats. Seems that with dogs, counting calories may be enough, but with cats, it also seems to make a big difference what you feed. Some cats seem to respond to low fat/low cal, while others don't, no matter how far back you cut the calories. Others seem to do better with high protein/low carb (the CAtkins diet). Anybody have any input - or maybe we'll get a cat weightloss post soon? :-)

Ingrid King April 23rd, 2009 04:51:50 PM

Julie- Ah well, there's a reason that I had to call Natura to see what the gm protein/100 kcal was when I was calculating my own dog's protein intake! Her foods aren't found on the OSU list either.

PJ- As far as I know, the 1 gm protein per pound is a minimum value to avoid seeing signs of protein deficiency. So, certainly not an optimal value- just minimum. As a rule of thumb, dogs need about twice as much protein per day than humans, and cats need twice that of dogs (humans= 1/2 gm per pound per day, dogs=1 gm, cats=2 gms).

Megan April 23rd, 2009 05:42:48 PM

Julie- I know your protein and kidney disease question was directed at Dr. Khuly, but I can tell you what they're teaching us in vet school now. There is no evidence that reduced protein diets do anything to *prevent* the development of kidney disease. However, it is well established that as kidney function decreases, restricting protein (actually, restricting phosphorus- although protein is the main dietary source of phosphorus) helps to slow the progression of kidney disease.

Megan April 23rd, 2009 05:49:14 PM

Ingrid, I second what Anlina said. I just switched my cats to raw foods. No more kibble. Kibble, according to many experts (vets among them) is inappropriate and harmful food for cats. It contains way too much plant matter, which cats do not have appropriate enzymes to break down. Kibble also contains too many carbs, which is what makes them fat. You may want to check out http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php and http://www.catinfo.org/. As soon as I switched my cats to raw foods containing only protein, fat, organ meats, bones, and some minimal supplements and fish oil, they lost the excess weight, and one of them completely got rid of his severe allergies. I do not count callories. The result was amazing and quite quick, not only in terms of the weight and allergy but also in terms of my cats' overall energy, the sheen of their coats, etc. For people trying to get their dogs to lose weight: the same thing. If dogs are fed a species-appropriate high-protein (almost no carb) diet, there is no need to count callories: they will get in shape, with adequate exercise, of course. I hate to disappoint the proponents of calory counting and journal keeping, but our pets' nutitional requirements are close (although not identical) to those of their wild counterparts. We don't see a lot of jackels with calculators in paw. Feeding dogs and cats is not that complicated if we stick with the nurishment their bodies were designed for. Raw foods for both species have some inherent risks, so I wouldn't plunge into them without doing a lot of reading and/or consulting a vet/nutritionist well versed in the subject, especially if you have animals who are ill or old. There is a lot of information on the Internet on raw feeding, but you want to be careful because some of it is amature advice, so do your homework. Also, switching can be hard with some dogs and cats, and there is some advice on that subject at the sites above. Some persistence and patience are in order, but I believe the results are worth it. Good luck.

Natalie Kramer April 23rd, 2009 06:00:51 PM

Natalie, I totally agree with you about kibble. Having lived with 3 diabetic cats, I tested their blood sugar at home. What an incredible positive difference it made to reduce the carbohydrate content of their food -- to go "grain free" (not just kibble free, but no canned food with lots of rice etc.). In fact my two foster diabetic cats were able to go into remission thanks to a combination of diet change and a brief course of insulin therapy to give the pancreas a break.

I am inconsistent about the raw feeding, I want to do raw more often (my cats will eat it) but at least they are on high quality grain free canned at worst.

Stefani April 23rd, 2009 06:30:22 PM

I lost a buttload (and I mean that literally) of weight calorie counting, using a program for my PC and palm treo called Calorie King.

What I liked about it is that it more or less put food on a "token economy."  I had my baseline calories for the day, and then I could "buy" more food with exercise.  It all got entered into the program -- every bite I ate, and every minute of activity I did.

Tremendous incentive to exercise.

Now, if someone could come up with the same program calibrated for dogs and cats -- brilliant.

Calorie counting is not that difficult if you have the calorie information for both food and activity at your fingertips and an easy way to record everything without having to calculate it yourself.

Even easier for an animal who eats the same thing every day!

Maria, two ways to separate cats for feeding.

If there's a BIG size difference, construct a "creep feeder" for the skinny cat(s) -- a crate, plastic storage container, or any kind of cage or enclosure with an access hole just large enough for the skinny cats to get through.  This is the simple way.

If the size difference is not huge, there's too much chance your fatcat will try to squeeze in, become stuck, and provide either a comic vignette or a hysterical scene.  In this case, get one of the cat doors that open when triggered by a collar magnet.  Install the door in the side of a large clear plastic storage container.  Skinny cat(s) gets the collar magnet.  Fat cat excluded.

I've used this method when one cat was on a special diet.

H. Houlahan April 23rd, 2009 06:52:11 PM

Julie and Megan (with apologies to Dr. K. to whom the kidney diet question was directed), my one rat study says that a protein-restricted diet for a dog with CRF is meaningless. Calcium binds phosphorus. Thus if you are feeding normal to high levels of protein to s CRF dog, simply feed a calcium supplement.

On the subject of calories, I too calculated how few calories an overweight dog should have to lose weight. This dog was being cared for by a friend. No surprise, she had trouble following my advice because the dog was always hungry. (My response: "he's a dog – dogs are always hungry.") My opinion is that obesity is SO unhealthy that it is worth the short-term issue of too few grams of protein in order to just get the weight off ASAP. 

Deanna April 23rd, 2009 06:53:29 PM

Megan and H. Houlahan: Please contact me!! (through my contact us link) I have questions to ask. A phone call might be in order. 

And thanks to those who addressed the CRF issues. 

Dr. Patty Khuly April 23rd, 2009 09:04:29 PM

Our agility instructor is a real stickler (and rightly so!) about keeping the dogs lean.  If a student's dog is too fat, that dog A) is required to jump at a lower level than he normally would during classes and B) isn't allowed to proceed to the advanced classes.  This is not done in a punitive way, and not done to shame the owner - it's just a matter of keeping the dog safe.  But it's usually a great incentive for the owner to get the weight off of Fido.

She recommends the "pumpkin diet".  Generally (and remember, these are basically healthy dogs we are dealing with here) she recommends reducing the amount of the dog's food by 25% and replacing the missing kibble with an equivalent volume of plain canned pumpkin.  Lots of fiber, no fat, few calories and most dogs like it.

For example, say your fat dog eats 4 cups of kibble a day.  You'd reduce that to 3 cups a day and add one cup of pumpkin.

It seems to work really well for a LOT of dogs, and is pretty easy to explain.  Since the dogs don't feel too hungry it's easier for the humans to stick with it too and not give in because they feel sorry for the dog.

Barb April 23rd, 2009 10:01:40 PM

Geez, according to OSU's calculator, my 13 year-old, overweight cat is only getting just shy of 12 grams of protein daily (1/4 c. bid) from his Royal Canin Urinary SO dry kibble...he's approx. 13 lbs., so he should be getting more than twice that! Nobody has ever mentioned that to me before. I've often considered taking him off the SO - he's only on it because he had a nasty cystitis several years ago (when he was the "family cat" and I was in middle school) with struvite crystalluria and we were told to feed him a therapeutic diet for the remainder of his life...my current vets have pretty much told me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I just did a CBC/chem12, T4, and urinalysis on him - all wnl or nsf. Any thoughts, Dr. K? I hate to think I've been letting his muscles waste away in an attempt to keep his weight down, and am really disappointed I'm having to learn this from a blog! No offense :)

anna April 23rd, 2009 11:46:23 PM

Megan, could you verify that the minimum is 2 gm/lb/day and not 2 gm/kg/day? Also, could you give me the source for that info? You can email me if you'd rather - amurch@okstate.edu. Thanks!

anna April 23rd, 2009 11:56:28 PM

Oops - easily found the 2 gm/lb/day recommendation in the Merck Veterinary Manual, a good enough source for me! Still open to anyone's thoughts, though. :) My next shift is Saturday, and my vets are in for a brain-picking!

anna April 24th, 2009 12:19:14 AM

I'm always a little skeptical of calculators. The ones I was taught as a first year would have me feeding my two very active (agility and running partner) altered dogs a full third more than they need to maintain weight, even using the 'normal pet' multipliers. Since their food is expensive (EVO) and I want them lean for joint protection, I've got a lot of motivation to avoid overfeeding. The suggestions on the sides of the bag are even worse in most cases. The only time I even got close to the numbers taught in school is when they were spending their daytimes outside in below freezing weather and needed it for heat. 

Your numbers are closer, but even so, it works out to a 1.2 mulitplier for my pets, which are both WAY more active than normal AND carrying weight that is nearly all muscle mass. What do you think of using the pet's ideal weight as the weight in the equation? It seems like it would make a lot more sense since the calorie requirements between a muscled dog weighing in at 50lb should be different from those of a fat should be 30lb 50lber. I don't feel like 0.1 is enough to account for the difference in metabolism. According to your calculators, I'm feeding my dogs a 'weight loss ration' at a 1.2 multiplier for active dogs! I guarantee you they're not losing any weight, and that they'd GAIN if I put them at the higher end of your suggestion of a 1.4 multiplier for weight loss in active dogs. ;)

My personal inclination is just to use their normal food, feed less of it and tackle what I perceive as the 'real' issue: the Food = Love idea. That, and people's pets, with very rare exceptions, are never active enough to qualify as 'active' in feed calculations, no matter what people think.

lindabcs April 24th, 2009 02:50:04 AM

This is the abstract for the canine study about a "renal-friendly" diet vs a maintenance diet in CRF in dogs.

-Megan

(Megan: I took the liberty of re-posting your link this way as the dang thing was stretching out the page.)

Dr. Patty Khuly April 24th, 2009 06:44:31 AM

Looking at the calorie count for your kibble (if you feed kibble) is SO critical these days, especially with the availability of the super-premium foods. There can be an enormous difference. Some dog foods are near or above 500 kcal per cup, while others are closer to 300-350 per cup. When the dog's daily requirement may only BE 300-400 per day, it really affects what you can give the dog each day.

What I don't know how to measure is what makes a dog "active" or not. My Frenchie will chase my Boston around the house like a bat out of hell for 15-20 min per day, and I can get him to do some leisurely fetching for maybe about the same amount of time, and the rest of the day he's a footrest.

Susan April 24th, 2009 09:27:51 AM

Dr. K., I read the abstract for food for the CRF dogs; is there any way to get the entire article on-line? I find that sometimes abstracts are misleading in that quantitative and subjective data are clarified in the article but omitted from the abstract. 

That article dates from 2002. (Kind of old. I like my academic articles to be from the last 4 years.) Other questions: Was the study based on diet alone? What happens if the dog doesn't eat the RF diet? (Have you ever looked at the ingredient list for those? Blech.) Did any of the study dogs refuse to eat? What exactly were the lab values? Were any other interventions used? (Sub-Q fluids, Azodyl, flax-seed oil supplement, etc.) Why the choice by the originators of the study to focus on food over other interventions? 

I firmly believe that if I had followed the advice to feed a "renal-friendly" diet to my dog, she wouldn't have seen birthdays 13 and 14 (soon 15?). My opinion is that this is yet another instance of treating disease and symptoms instead of taking a holistic view. 

Deanna April 24th, 2009 12:37:00 PM

Lindabcs - I'm with you that the biggest hurdle for owners to get over re: their overweight pets is that food = love. That, and many truly don't know how little food pets (and humans!) really need. I've never seen a bag or can (even the premium brands) that suggests anything close to what my dogs need. For the average pet, it seems to be about two times too much. Even for my "race cars" who get worked daily, I'm just barely into the range recommended on the food labels.

Maybe veterinarians would serve the pet-owning public by lobbying food manufacturers into lowering their label recommendations. :-)))

Deanna April 24th, 2009 12:42:30 PM

Deanna- email me at mwatland@gmail.com and I can send you the full article. We discussed renal diets in depth during my nutrition course, since this study was conducted at the U of MN. Drs. Polzin and Osborne both lectured on the topic, as did our nutritionist. Long story short, yes, the study is very kidney-oriented, because Drs. Polzin and Osborne are very kidney-oriented researchers. Our nutritionist does not agree with treating the kidneys to the detriment of the dog as a whole (like you said, renal diets taste like cardboard and a lot of animals won't eat them)... but, the study cited is a double-blinded randomized clinical trial, which is about as good as you can get with hard data in vet med, and vet nutrition in particular.

Megan April 24th, 2009 01:22:13 PM

Deanna, maybe veterinarians would swerthe pet-owning public by lobbying food manufacturing into putting the right ingredients into the foods they manufacture! Actually some veterinarians already do, or at least they criticize the existing pet foods for being harmful to our pets. Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM is one of them. You can find her article and advice at http://www.catinfo.org/. Also, Dr. Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, ACVIM has an article on cat nutrition at http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf. Maybe some pet foods should require labels, like on cigarette packs, to the effect that consuming this product may harmful to your pet's health.

Natalie Kramer April 24th, 2009 01:53:18 PM

Stefani, Natalie and Anlina - thanks for sharing your experiences with cats. I've had my chubby 13.5 pounder on grain-free canned food (I like the EVO and Wellness brands) because I'm not comfortable with feeding raw, even though I like the idea of it. I've got her down to eating 3.5 oz a day and she finally seems to start losing some of the weight she put on from when I had to leave food out at all times because my little one was so sick for the last two months of her life and such a poor eater, I wanted her to have access to food at all times, even when I wasn't home to supervise who ate what. Needless to say, Miss Chubby took advantage of the situation :-) I try to get all my clients cats off dry food, but boy, it's a huge mindset change for most people - seems that so many veterinarians still tell their clients cats need the dry food for their teeth!

Ingrid King April 24th, 2009 03:51:42 PM

I've never understood the claim that dry food is good for teeth because experience just doesn't support it at all. I've known many, many cats who ate mostly dry and had horrendous plaque and irritated gums and desperately needed a proper cleaning (even very young cats.)

My Cajun, who has always had terrible, crooked teeth gets brushed once or twice a week and the other two maintain clean mouths eating their chunked food.

Even if kibble did clean teeth, it seems awfully counter productive to feed a diet that is good for teeth but that is no good for the rest of the body.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com April 24th, 2009 04:23:10 PM

Every time I get a chance to talk to a client who has told the vet that they feed dry food "to help keep the teeth cleaner" I gently ask them if they (themselves) ate nothing but granola or rice cakes, and yet didn't brush their teeth, would they think their teeth were clean? They usually think about it and I say, "Wet food, dry food, the cleaning action doesn't happen with either kind - brushing is the best way to scrape stuff off teeth." (I use big, meaty, raw bones every couple months on mine, but trying to explain the issue in the two minutes I might have to say anything, makes it risky that they'd give the wrong kind, so unless I see them outside of work and can explain in detail, I'd rather not risk them coming in with an obstructed dog.)

KateH April 24th, 2009 09:38:17 PM

I've found it helps to point out to vets that if kibble really helps keep teeth clean, Hills/Purina/et al wouldn't need to sell specific prescription dental diets. Regular kibble shatters when a cat or dog bites down on it. Dental kibbles have to be specifically formulated to stay intact long enough to provide mechanical abrasion of the tooth.

Studies have shown that the best ways to keep dogs' teeth clean is daily brushing, followed by allowing them access to a wide variety of chewing materials. There is no difference in tartar formation in kibble fed vs canned fed dogs.

Megan April 25th, 2009 12:44:17 PM

Megan, vets are in bed with Hills/Purina/et al. Pointing things out to them is pointless. Read http://rawfed.com/myths/vets.html or http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html, a paper by a Harvard Law graduate. It's quite sobering. This is not to say that individual vets profit hugely from the industry as a whole being in bed with the pet food manufacturers, but the culture is imposed through the cozy (some call them insestuous) funding arrangements and kickbacks between the parties involved, starting with vets schools.

Natalie Kramer April 25th, 2009 04:59:50 PM

Natalie, your comment would make sense if I'd said that you should point out to vets that Hills/Purina/etc use crappy ingredients, or what have you. If, as you say, vets are in bed with Big Pet Food, then sure they won't listen. What I said was that you point out that kibble needs to be specifially formulated if it's going to have any effect on plaque and tartar (hence the prescription dental diets). If regular kibble had any effect on tartar, a dental-specific kibble wouldn't be necessary. Fight fire with fire (or kibble with kibble, if you will).

I am a vet student, I understand the relationship between pet food companies and vets.... and no, not all of us are mindless drones that follow the free pizza to recommending Hills for life.

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Megan, the point I was making was about the problematic relationship between pet food companies and the veterinary industry as a whole, which results in less than optimal nutrition for many, if not most, of our pets, since the mainstream nutritional culture is still oriented almost overwhelmingly towards commercial pet foods of questionable quality. I am well aware that many individual vets are mindful of good nutrition and, to their credit, will advise counter to the mainstream nutritional culture. Many of them are active in raising awarenss of the problem, both with their own clients and through the Internet, books, and articles in scientific journals, including veterinary. I have been fortunate to have such vets treating my pets. However, I have also had the misfortune of having those "follow the free pizza" vets treat my pets with disastrous results. When vets tell their clients that kibble will have a positive effect on plaque and tartar, which as you point out untrue, this is symptomatic of the more global problem of alliances, which may be mutually beneficial to vets and pet food manufacturers, but are not beneficial (in many cases down right harmful) to our pets. The good news is that pet owners have access to unbiased information coming from vets and biologists on appropriate nutrition. The not so good news is that many pet owners don't know enough to start looking for that information and trust the mainstream nutritional culture blindly without giving it a second thought.

Natalie Kramer April 25th, 2009 09:30:46 PM

Re "When vets tell their clients that kibble will have a positive effect on plaque and tartar" and "pet owners don't know enough . . . "

Natalie, another problem is this: Some owners, maybe a minority, are really eager to do the best nutritionally for their pets even IF it is more expensive or less convenient.

For the other pet owners, they really need to be told strongly in no uncertain terms that the grain dense kibble is actually HARMFUL to their pets . . . because frankly, kibble is generally cheaper (not high quality grain free kibble but the PetSmart/PetCo/grocery store kibble) and is DEFINITELY more convenient for pet owners.

I have a good friend with a gigantically fat cat and they free-feed dry. I rant against this but since her vet helps her feel OK about it, she discounts my warnings. Instead, she puts her cat on Hills Weight Management kibble which she bought from aforemetioned vet.

All she'd really have to do is some research with an inquiring mind to find out that it's not the best thing. She's a human doctor to boot. But . . . having the respect for health professionals that she does (although frankly she's WAY more questioning of other doctors and quick to call them out) she thinks if her vet says this is OK, then it is OK.

The cat is huge. I am waiting for hte call telling me she has diabetes.

Sad but true: It's simply easier and cheaper for many pet owners to feed kibble, and unless they are made to feel that its flat out harmful, they are not going to stop. After all: If they believe that there is a difference in terms of health impact for their pets, why would they spend more money and do something less convenient?

I'm not really judging -- I myself didn't stop feeding kibble till I realized that it was harmful. Then I felt like an idiot because frankly, it's common sense. When have I ever seen a cat chowing down in a cornfield?

That is why I wish vets would take it upon themselves to impress the harm upon pet owners. But if they themselves don't believe it . . . then . . .

Stefani April 26th, 2009 02:16:40 PM

Correction: I meant "If they DON'T believe that there is a difference in terms of health impact for their pets, why would they spend more money and do something less convenient?"

Stefani April 26th, 2009 02:18:25 PM

Nice article, but you forgot to mention the role that the thyroid plays in weight management! My sheltie has been overweight since she was spayed and, frankly, I kept the food and exercise diary for her. I made sure she was not getting extra treats and if we were clicker training, she got extra exercise. The weight would NOT come off, though. Shelties need to run on the high side of normal on thyroid levels, so I finally convinced my vet to check hers. She was low and some of the weight came off. But, not all of it and it was a constant frustration. I got really tired of people telling me my dog was fat. Really tired, when I spent more time and energy on this than they ever did. I was doing the weekly weight checks and the calorie counting and the exercise. This past year, her thyroid tested a little bit lower and we upped her dosage. The weight has melted off of her. So now, every fat sheltie that my vet sees gets a thyroid check. 99% of them have been too low. And, he has started checking it for other breeds and is finding that many of them are too low, too.

smorancie April 27th, 2009 02:12:03 PM

smorancie, excellent point! I've been enjoying reading the comments, but haven't felt a desire to get involved because A) I've never owned an overweight pet and, B) my current dog's weight issues are at the other extreme.

Here's the interesting wrinkle in my dog's case. She is also hypothyroid. ...Remarkably so. The thing is, she has all the symptoms of hyperthyroidism: extremely weight-gain resistant, voracious appetite and eats a huge volume of food, energetic, happy, prefers the cold, and is very slim. (I should actually use the word "skinny" now. The same as you, but on the other end of the spectrum - a bit of solidarity - I grew tired of constantly reminding people that "fit" is not the same as "skinny". I mean, you couldn't actually see her ribs or anything. She was just very well-muscled and had no fat on her whatsoever. ...Got loads of exercise, was a rather "busy" dog, etc. But now, she's 10-years-old and over the past year or so, she's been gradually losing weight, as it becomes more and more difficult for me to keep her in (visibly) good condition. She's now closing in on being 15lbs underweight, even though her normal weight I would consider to be at least 20lbs underweight, as it was.) Yet she's not hyperthyroid, she's hypothyroid, in spectacular fashion. What I mean is, her T4 is barely detectable. It's not just low, it's really low.

For a number of reasons, my veterinarians (yes, plural) and I have chosen not to treat her hypothyroidism, since she's otherwise so happy and healthy. The worry about treatment includes probable further weight loss, permanently impacting her ability to produce thyroid hormone herself, and just generally not wanting to experiment with a dog who is in good health. (Her low T4 results first came back as the result of a routine, annual exam, and not because she had some ailment.)

I don't give the hypothyroidism much thought now, a year after its first discovery. We're not treating it and, having investigated all the possible sources for the low T4 results, and finding absolutely nothing abnormal (even things we almost expected to be a least a little "off"), it's relegated to the back of my mind. I know it's an issue. But it doesn't seem to be doing anything detrimental.

My regular vet. was so puzzled by my dog's presenting "symptoms" she posted the case on VIN, with no real results. (There were only suggestions to re-do the tests, but we did, and they all came back the same.)

I've been around the block a few times (trained dogs for 30 years) and I've solved eating/weight problems in too many dogs to count. But this one has me stumped. 5+ meals a day, plus as many high-calorie treats as she wants, plus regular peanut butter kongs, and I've even been adding fatty meats to her diet of super-premium commercial dog food brands for the past couple of months. She lost another pound last month. My husband noted that she seems the happiest and most playful she ever has in her whole life. Go figure. It's a puzzle, that's for sure.

In any event, smorancie, it's great that you and your vet. not only "solved" your dog's problem, but that it may lead to quicker resolution for future animals. :-)

Marjorie April 28th, 2009 10:25:09 AM

Thank you Anne and Anlina for your suggestions.  I am going to start making some changes (gradual) to how I feed.  Hopefully, these changes won't result in a no holds barred, food war among the cats. 

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