no offense here from a trainer and behavior consultant, i totally agree.  you also do a nice job of putting it in peoples faces but nice enough to keep your audience.  must ask, what's your take on the use of e-stimulus devices for behavior modification? Any opinion, perhaps an upcoming posting?

joyce kesling, CDBC May 12th, 2009 09:05:35 AM

Head halters seem almost purpose-designed to create cervical injury.

The "front clip" harnesses also lead to inappropriate torque, and they restrict the shoulders (actually, the upper arms) in ways that seem to create long-term gait abnormalities when they are fitted "correctly" according to the instructions.  Many dogs will just stop moving when wearing one unless sort of dragged along.  This is not a short-term issue, but continues for weeks or months (until the owner hires a trainer who takes the damned thing off.)  They also leave serious chafe marks.  Very few owners can manage the leash properly with these; the dogs are forever tangled up.  If an owner's leash-management is competent enough to prevent this, then the owner is capable of using a better tool.

Head halters and kinky harnesses just about never function as training devices.  The owner is stuck with lifetime management of a dog that never learned to walk on a leash, and will always pull as soon as the rigging is normalized.

There is no tool that is idiot-proof.  Idiots are too ingenious.

People gasp when I give instruction on the proper use of a prong collar and recommend it for many, many dogs -- especially little brachycephalic bull-heads.  Yes, they can be misused -- usually starting with fitting way too loose and using a size with much-too-large prongs.  Yeah, they look terrible.  Know what?  The vast majority of dogs stop pulling AT ALL within five minutes of being introduced to one that is properly fitted and used.  They learn quickly and can get on with the job of having a nice walk.  This tool is relatively forgiving of poor timing, and less prone to cause injury than most others.

As always, I prefer to employ it as a training tool that goes into the drawer in a matter of months, leaving a dog who can be walked nekkid and will not pull into a plain flat collar when a leash is required.

In cases where the owner is unable or unwilling to reach that training goal, a properly-fitted prong is a more humane "management" tool than any of the kinky nylon numbers that have been hawked for the past twenty years of so.

H. Houlahan May 12th, 2009 09:32:27 AM

Funnily enough, I wrote a blog about the use of electric shock collars (euphemistically called e-stimulus devices) in my blog at the UK Daily Telegraph last week. Read it here.

The blog - and my own negative opinion about the collars - produced a very strong reaction from those in favour and those against their use. I think I hit on another area where there's a trans-Atlantic difference. UK trainers seemed largely against the collars, calling for a complete ban of their use, whereas North American trainers seemed to feel that they have a very useful place in teaching dog behaviour. 

I'm not going to repeat the - lengthy - arguments here, but suffice to say that by the end of the discussion, people had to agree to differ in their opinions. 

Pete

www.petethevet.com

Pete the vet May 12th, 2009 09:34:48 AM

As I mentioned on a microchip post, my dog found it way too easy to (accidentally, even) slip out of her collar.  Now we walk exclusively with harnesses just to make sure that doesn't happen again.  If my dogs will be outside of their fenced yard, they have a harness and leash.

Galadriel May 12th, 2009 09:52:25 AM

Man!  I could not be more "with" you on this one!!!  (But maybe for different reasons.) I don't like collars at all, not just because they can (and often are) misused and abused, but also because it's a lazy way of managing dogs, never teaching them to control their own behaviour.

I find neck-yanking abhorrent.  ...Truly abhorrent.  I don't have anything against harnesses, but I just feel like that's too much equipment on the dog, with the potential to interfere with comfortable shoulder movement (especially in dogs that are still pulling, or their owners are pulling them).  That's the main reason I haven't moved to harnesses, myself.  My experience with horses is probably to blame for my disdain for head halters.  I never liked halters on horses, feeling it was rather perverse to have these straps all over their faces.  I would only use halters when necessary for handling and transporting.  Otherwise, they were naked, and I prefer it that way.  The idea of a halter on a dog is even more, oh, I don't know, "uncomfortable" to me.

In any event, I stopped using choke chains in the 70's.  I only use flat, buckle collars on dogs simply because I've never needed anything else.  Of the 30 years I trained dogs, at least the last 10-20 years, I specialized in working almost exclusively with aggressive/dangerous dogs.  Yet I've never felt the need to use anything but a flat, buckle collar.  I rely on training, socialization, and supervision, so the dog learns to control its own behaviour, rather than merely being physically restrained.

In a rather popular article I wrote about 10 years ago, regarding how to teach a dog to heel in one day, I included the following:

"**A note about training equipment**

Any equipment you use on your dog (I.E. collars, leashes, halters, harnesses, etc.) are merely training tools. They're there to keep your dog under control while it learns to obey verbal commands and control its own behaviour around distractions. 

Used responsibly, most training aids are effective. However, they should not be seen as a solution for problem behaviour. Head halters, choke chains, prong collars, even leashes, are merely a means of keeping the dog under your control while you continue training appropriate behaviour. The goal is a dog who will be obedient without any equipment at all to guide her. Relying on equipment to control the dog means she will never learn to control her own behaviour, and will always have a need for strict supervision and physical control."

If you rely on physical restraints and barriers, the dog will never learn how to control its own behaviour.  And it is this "control its own behaviour" concept that I also often use to help people differentiate between punishment and discipline.  For example, I do this exercise sometimes.  At an off-leash dog park, I will put my dog in a sit, at a very busy part of the trail, where there will be many strangers and other dogs.  I walk away, only occasionally turning back briefly to check.  Once I'm about as far away as I can get, where my dog can still hear me call, I will stop and observe.  People will walk by.  Some will stop and pet the dog.  Other dogs will run up and greet or push or just generally be enticing.  Once I'm satisfied it has controlled itself appropriately, I will call the dog to me.  That's what is meant by 'discipline'.  Teaching the dog to control it's own behaviour, by giving it the opprotunity to practice remaining in a sit or a down or remaining heeling past distractions or recall through enticing distractions. 

As I often say, a well-trained dog is mostly a well-practiced dog. 

So, with all that said, I don't really care what kind of equipment people use on their dogs, as long as they do so correctly and ethically.  Still, the whole neck yanking thing has got to go.  I wouldn't want my neck yanked.  I'm pretty sure dogs wouldn't either.

Marjorie May 12th, 2009 09:54:19 AM

I did not know this. I knew choke collars cause damage to the esophagus but never thought about the neck. Wow thanks, learn something new every day. Plus I love "There is no tool that is idiot-proof. Idiots are too ingenious." I'm saving that one.

Betsy May 12th, 2009 10:36:36 AM

Thanks for posting this dr K!

When I got Goodman, an adult 66lb dog, he pulled terribly on lead (and a 66lb dog sure can pull). I worked with him using a Halti head harness and after about two months Goodman is walking beautifully on lead- without a Halti.

Today I usually use a harness (not front clip) unless I'm too tired to put it on him and then we use a flat buckle collar.

Xslf May 12th, 2009 11:10:49 AM

Lost count of the times I've cringed watching yankers trying to over control.

Evet May 12th, 2009 11:41:18 AM

And the times I wanted to yell "hey idiot what in h*ll are you doing!"

Evet May 12th, 2009 11:43:59 AM

We found the Gentle Leader to be very helpful for training purposes but after Jerry's amputation we found the Ruff Wear harness to be invaluable for assisting him in and out of vehicles and up/down stairs. Thanks for your input on this subject.

tripawds.com May 12th, 2009 12:12:46 PM

I used to work for a vet who had us trying to sell Gentle Leaders to every puppy owner who walked through the door and any unruly adult dog owner. Our standard puppy exam involved playing the Gentle Leader DVD in the exam room. I never understood. I don't like head halters at all. I tried one on my red dog when she was young and wild, fresh from the shelter. She lunged at a dog, flipped over backward, and I was scared to death she'd broken her neck. That was it for a head halter on her. I do now use one on my leash-reactive will-bite-first-ask-questions-later dog when I have to take him into an environment where I can't control the plethora of loose dogs prone to running up into his face, but I use it with a certain amount of regret.

Anyway, when I questioned the aforementioned vets about the head collars and my concerns about neck injuries, the number of dogs who are shut down by them or who vehemently object to them, and the complete lack of training that I see often occurring with their use, they shut me down. They use one on their 11 year old dog and have for years, period, the end. Uh huh. And so it goes.

Where I work now, we point all puppy owners toward puppy class as a method for controlling wild puppy leash antics. Not toward a piece of equipment. I'm much happier there.

Katie May 12th, 2009 01:12:58 PM

The underlying problem here is that people rely on the training devices and leash to control the animal. Ultimately they are merely a safety device while the owner learns to gain psychological control over the animal.

Any tool can inflict and injury if misused or unmonitored. Assessing the physiology of the dog and the skill (or lack of skill) of the owner can determine what device might work the best.

I tend to favor head halters and the anti-pull harnesses BUT the whole trick to to teach the owner NOT to use the leash and to anticipate problems and avoid them--ie., respond instead of react.

Find me blogging at Ark Animals

Ark Lady May 12th, 2009 02:06:48 PM

Oh, oh, oh... "There is no tool that is idiot-proof. Idiots are too ingenious."...  I think I'm going to put THAT one on a T-shirt!!  Maybe a bumper sticker too.

Hey Heather, we could sell those and have the proceeds go to NESR! :-)

Excellent post, Dr. Patty!

Barb May 12th, 2009 03:19:37 PM

Favorite questionable move -- the prong collar attached to a flexi -- a fully extended flexi and a large dog at the end and a man on a cell phone. Just seemed unwise and not entirely well thought out, I thought.

I also don't understand the people who use choke chains and let the dog pull and pull and pull and pull until its wheezing like a tea kettle. Like it's a magic collar that does all the work?

 Then again I'm not a fan of the collars at all likely due to early experiences.

I remember standing at the orientation of my first obedience class as a kid with the family dog and seeing a beautiful golden retriever light up at the approach of another dog, entirely happy and relaxed he pulled forward a little only to have the handler smash him with a correction by lifting her arm and bringing it down as hard as possible and then yelled at him as his ears pasted back and whole body wilted with his tail between his legs.

Not my idea of fun watching people terrorize their dogs in the name of training. And it was supposed to be fun...

The whole thing was a terrible and pointless experience -- to teach a down we learned to put the dog in a sit and then say DOWN! And shove them over like a sack of potatoes. The whole thing really turned me off of dog training for a long long time.

Why bother training if its so stressful, I thought.

Sheyna May 12th, 2009 03:44:42 PM

Here's a rant on retractable leashes (aka, the dreaded Flexi) for those of you newer to Dolittler.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 12th, 2009 04:36:13 PM

A past post of mine on e-devices (and thanks, Pete, for your excellent take).

Dr. Patty Khuly May 12th, 2009 04:38:35 PM

When I got my first dog, she'd been run over by a delivery van (actually lucky, because there was room for her to be rolled underneath and not smashed completely), and when a friend picked her up off the side of the road and brought her to me, we found a thin, but strong, wire had been used as some idiot's idea of a collar.  As she was about 6 months old, the wire had to have been put on her when she was a puppy, as it had almost been 'swallowed' into the flesh of her neck.  After having that removed, the vet said she might have had damage to her trachea and suggested I always use a harness, which I gladly did. 

As she came out of her shell in the next year she started to insist that, as lead sled dog, she should pull as if she was trying to win the Yukon Quest (the tradition top-of-the-back-attachment harness is based on the sled dog model and really allows dogs to put their shoulder muscles into pulling).  I knew a lovely lady who had Chihuahuas, one of which was a burly stud dog, and after seeing how well he behaved on a little prong (diameter and prong size!) collar, and learning it would not put holes in my dog's neck - as so many anti-prong trainers insist it will (yeah, if I hang the dog from a tree by it, but then any collar will be bad if you do that, and I'm not stupid, thank you!) - I properly fitted her with one, and she never pulled or had any trouble with it. 

My very dog-aggressive (for his first 2 years with me) Shep-Rott mix got a prong collar right from day one.  Every time people would say, "Oh, is he mean?" I'd say, "No, he's very powerful and I'm not going to battle with him when he has 4 wheel drive traction and I don't."  And when trainers would (again) chastise me for using such a "cruel" collar, I'd laugh, because all I had to do was show it to him and he'd go ballistic with joy.  He wasn't cringing and trying to get away from 'torture', and I didn't have to curtail my walks (my very bad back problems at the time meant that any yanking - by the dog - could have me in too much pain to walk home) with him.

With my Lab-Rott mix, I did try a head halter, just to see if it would be any 'kinder' but she continually threw herself on the ground and almost did somersaults to try to remove it.  After a month I wondered why I was wasting our time wrestling over this, and got her a properly sized prong collar.  And then I was able to walk my 3 mixs and my 2 greyhounds (yeah, they wear martingale/no-slip collars), all at the same time.  People would be dumbfounded when they saw us, and I heard "Wow, how do you do that?! I can't even walk my one dog that easily!" over and over and over, until I just smiled politely and shrugged at many of them (especially the ones with shaggy small dogs on Flexi's, who caused havoc on the walk/bike paths).  There were some who would get an explanation of the how and why of a properly fitted and used prong collar, but trying to explain that choke chains are actually much more painful is a conversation I often didn't try to go into, because, dang it, we were there to walk!  And now I'm going to take the 4 remaining dogs, who range from 9 to 12, for a (short) walk.  Yeah, at this point, the 2 mixes just use their everyday flat buckle collars and martingales, but, hey, they've finally slowed down so much, it's all I need.  It really is a matter of the proper tool, used properly, at the proper time in a dog's life and training.  (Yeah, I'd like to walk'em all nekkid, but the very busy suburban roads, and drivers who often aren't looking at where they're going - oh, and the neighborhood dogs that aren't properly contained - makes that too risky.  There was a wonderful time when my Shep-Rottie used to go to a semi-deserted park area and he'd be off leash - and under voice control - but that part is now 'renovated' and not fun anymore, and he's too old to be bounding over boulders and tree trunks anymore!)

KateH May 12th, 2009 04:47:06 PM

I do like head halters. But I dont' just throw one on the dog.  I spend a few days doing desensitization exercises with it first.  And I never jerk the dog with it.  I use it to allow me to get reinforceable moments - the dog is never allowed to get in front of me - any time they start moving ahead even a step, the halter turns them back to me, then click/treat. 

When we brought our newest puppy home, I started using one on her.  Now we only use it in highly distracting environments to help her remember that we're with her.  Otherwise she walks right beside us on leash.

The key to halters is that they never get far enough away to jerk their head back.  Even half a head past my leg and they are turning back to me.  The second key is desensitization.  You can't just throw one on the dog and expect them to accept it.  They have to learn that it is a good thing.

Nita May 12th, 2009 05:59:52 PM

H. Houlahan - I agree with you 100% re: prong collars.

The vast majority of my clients are reluctant to take one home, so my general advice is to try one on, go for a walk, come back and tell me what you thought.  I have NEVER had someone come back and say that it wasn't for them. 

These are generally people who have literally stopped walking the dog due to the stress and strain it has caused both them and the dog.

Also, in regards to check chains (I really do hate the term choke chain..) with proper timing and skill they can be incredibly useful for dogs with softer temperaments.  However, far too many people come in looking for a head halter because "we tried a choke collar and the stupid dog just kept choking itself!"  Yes, as if they were miracle collars.

While there is a potential for misuse with the prong collar, I don't feel that it is any higher than with any other tool.  The check chain is another story - without MUCH practice and educated instruction, the vast majority of users are accomplishing nothing aside from perhaps tracheal collapse and nerve damage.

Dr. K - As for the e-collars, I feel the same way as I do about the check chains.  If you're using a check chain as a "choke chain," you can rest assured you're NOT using it properly.  The same applies for the e-collar.  If you're using it as a shock collar, you are (aside from the most SEVERE circumstances - which should involve a professional!) most definitely misusing the tool.

Incidentally, thanks to Heather I have a vibrating/stimulating e-collar on order to use with a dog with OCD.  Can't wait to try out the new pager system.

Kim May 12th, 2009 06:42:54 PM

Don't forget the silly people who use a head collar/halti AND a flexi together. Cause they want the dog to pull, but not too much? Cause they want control, but not too much? Cause they want the dog to lunge and get some speed and THEN get yanked back by the neck? Truly misguided use of the tools. 

I actually think head collars are a mistake. Dogs are not built like horses. The pressure on the nose is a big problem. The amount of effort that dogs expend in trying to get the darned things off is a clue to how aversive they are.... Body harnesses otoh rarely provoke that level of averse response. For the dog who is learning to walk on a loose lead and for the lunging reactive dog, a front clip body harness is my tool of choice.

hornblower May 12th, 2009 07:14:02 PM

I did get that walk in, and wanted to add that while I am fine with prongs (and will likely use them again, if warranted), with many of the clients that come in with over-excited Labs (or other pulling monsters), I do recommend an Easy Walk (front-clip) harness first.  This is mainly because I'm not allowed the time to really get into a sensible discussion of the correct use of a prong collar, while the Easy Walk is (1) quick to explain and (2) a lot of people would like to try the 'softer' concept of a harness (and as I mentioned, I think the traditional H-harness is problematic).

But, I don't recommend it for dogs smaller than a beagle, because using a leash correctly is a problem.  Since the clip can be so low to the ground, a short dog can tangle it around their legs (or pee on it!).  Yes, any dog can do that if the people aren't using the leash correctly, but it's really easier with short-legged dogs.  Actually, using a leash incorrectly with any collar/harness is something I see a lot.  People who walk with their elbow cocked and their hand up at shoulder level or with their arm fully extended, either to the side or in front of them. because they either don't think of putting the end loop in the right hand and taking up the slack in their left hand (dog on left), or are using too long of a leash in the first place (leashes come in 4' and 1' lengths, too, and can make things so much easier!).  I suggest to them that keeping the arm/hand with the leash straight down at their side will actually be easier on their muscles, even if they have to cross the opposite hand over to grasp their forearm/elbow to use the stronger bicep/tricep muscles instead of their wrists to do most of the work. (And take up the slack in the leash!)  Letting the dog get more than a foot in front of you is setting yourself up for pulling if you don't know what you're doing, even with a little dog.  Remember that 4-whell drive comes in smaller packages too, with K-9 Motors Corp!

KateH May 12th, 2009 07:55:50 PM

In the 70's, obedience school employed the "hanging" method for unruly behavior, in the late 80's a prong was recommended, in the 2000 neighborhood, you still would change directions , with a quick jerk on the neck.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd start out with a harness & maybe stick with one for life! That wouldn't work for the show ring, but that didn't involve obedience type hairpin turns.

Barbara A. Albright/NH May 12th, 2009 08:38:23 PM

What about cat leash safety?

My guess is that a harness should ALWAYS be used, never a collar, to avoid injuring the cat's neck.

My otherwise indoor cat takes occasional short trips into the yard to catch some rays.  The harness I have is made of two circles of narrow nylon straps,  one around the neck/shoulder area, one around the ribcage behind the front legs, plus two more straps that connect the two circles.  A top one along the spine, and a second one between the front legs.  The top one has the ring to attach the matching leash.  If the fit is adjusted correctly, she can't get out of it.

Early in my cat wrangling attempts.  I was in the back yard and suddenly found a loose leash and harness and a nekkid kitteh at my feet.  That ended okay, as I just picked up the cat and walked back into the house with her.

Miss Kitty's Mom May 12th, 2009 09:14:36 PM

I actuallythink headcollars are a mistake. Dogs are not built like horses. The pressure on the nose is a big problem. The amount of effort that dogs expend in trying to get the darned things off is a clue to how aversive they are.... Body harnesses otoh rarely provoke that level of averse response. For the dog who is learning to walk on a loose lead and for the lunging reactive dog, a front clip body harness is my tool of choice.

Amount of effort my dog puts into getting her head collar off: Zero.

Amount of success I have had in finding a front clip harness that correctly fits my very narrow-bodied small dog? Zero.

When I was using a flat buckle collar on her, the Scary Scary Things that set her off resulted in a choking sensation, leading to increased and extended panic, followed by very scary-to-me coughing sessions.

With the head collar, the Scary Things don't lead to her feeling that choking sensation, OR having those coughing sessions. This leads to her being easier to distract and restore to a calm frame of mind, which has led to my being able to make fewer and fewer things being seriously scary for her.

I'd happily use a front hook harness if I could find one that fit her. But a prong? For a dog whose problem was fear being exacerbated the frightening sensation of choking from her collar? No, thank you.

(And yes, I've been told many times that head collars make "dogs"--all dogs, apparently, shut down. My pupper in her head collar walks with her tail out, her ears up, and eager interest in everything around. I guess that's a description of a dog who is "shut down," right?)

Lis May 12th, 2009 09:15:40 PM

My dachshunds wear collars, but they would simply slip over their heads because of their anatomy. If we walk, it's with a regular harness, but truthfully, they are fenced in the backyard and we play out there and rarely walk.

they do love to be tucked up under your arm though...

LorriM May 12th, 2009 09:32:17 PM

I have a dog that has Glaucoma and she is not supposed to wear a collar that allows pulling/pressure on her neck.  If there is increased pressure on her jugulars it has the potential to create increased intraocular pressure.  My choice when she walks is the front clip harness and it works like a charm. 

J.C. May 13th, 2009 09:01:20 AM

Thought I had a big problem from using a collar, and flexi leash.. We were out for a walk on a foggy night, when Socks decided to get silly.. He ended up getting jerked.. Didn't think much about it until 4:00 a.m. The guy woke up with a scary cough..  I tried running the shower, to no avail.. He was gettting enough air in, so we went to the vet when they opened.. Socks ended up with kennel cough, but needed to be put through the x-rays to make sure.. He's been a perfect gentleman with the front clip harness.. and he still gets the cough every couple of month..

barri May 13th, 2009 08:47:05 PM

How do you fit a prong collar properly? And how do you get the proper size ? Please?

I have always used halti`s and had success for the most part but I sometimes foster gi-normous dogs and I have a problem with GL`S and halti`s . I feel that even when the dog has gotten desensitized to wearing one in the house and when we practice and practice until they are comfortable with it, they still try to take off with both of us once outside . I`m always afraid of hurting them somehow. Now I know I was right this once.

 thankyou

Heather May 13th, 2009 10:27:35 PM

All dogs are individuals and all owners are as well. You need to find what will work for all parties involved. There will always be people who don't want to actually take the time to "train" their dogs but want to take them for walks. For safety that may mean teaching them how to properly use a head collar, front clip harness or yes even a prong collar. It isn't the tool that is the issue, it is the person on the end of the leash. I prefer teaching them that forward motion to a dog that is pulling means they need to stop walking. If the behavior works for the dog (forward motion when pulling) then they will continue to do it. End of story. No matter what the dog is wearing, the training remains the same. Don't reinforce behavior you don't want! My favorite collar is the martingale. It tightens up enough to not come off the dog when it pulls back but not so much it cuts off their airway. http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie May 13th, 2009 10:54:01 PM

J.C.: Excellent addition to the list of issues for which collars are contraindicated. Thank you.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 13th, 2009 10:57:27 PM

Heather, to fit a prong collar properly, it should be placed at the top of the neck, just behind the ears. Collars can be difficult to put on and take off, especially if you have weak finger strength - at least with the original kind of collar, which needs to have a link disengaged to do so. There's another kind, with a clip, but I don't use that kind (having heard about cases where the clip isn't clipped right and the whole thing pops apart. That may be a silly rumor, so if anyone uses the clip kind, please correct that. Anyway, here's a decent site: http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/training/prongcollars.html

 There are two things that she says that are a bit different than what I've experienced.  She says the collars come in Extra Heavy, Heavy, Light, etc.  She's actually referring to the size of the individual links.  You should use the 'lightest' of the 'sizes' that you dog can be controlled on.  In other words, don't use the really big links that you might see on a Rottweiler, on a beagle.  There are little, almost delicate links that will fit a Min Pin or Chihuahua, and there are ones that are much bigger and work best with Mastiffs.  You need to get the number of links that will fit, and if that means you take out links or add them, that's the key.  Some places sort of sell them by length/size, but always measure behind your dog's ears, high up on the neck, and then fit it at the store, so you can get the number of links you need.  Most places will sell extra links in a two pack.  Also, the Lab owner at that site, says to consult a trainer through the APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) with questions, but my experience is that the majority of them range from 'against' to 'violently histrionic against' prong collars, so, while there are some who will be helpful, many will try to tell you that you're a cruel person to use one. 

KateH May 14th, 2009 08:28:19 AM

O.K. Got it!

Dont let the dog past the knee.

Stop the walk if they do.

Prong collars for big dogs.

Martingales for little dogs.

Eventually switch to flat buckle collar. (which I have plenty of and have tried to use as much as possible)(and I dont use flexi`s at all )

thankyou everyone.

Heather May 14th, 2009 08:43:00 AM

Heather, just because you have a big dog doesn't mean that you automatically use a prong collar.  There are many large dogs that don't pull like a train, and many small ones that do.  It's  case-by-case basis as to what kind of collar or haness is best for each dog - and it can change by place (very busy with cars/people/dogs or not) and with the training you're doing, the compliance of the dog, and even its age (many dogs slow down and don't need anything other than a flat collar - or, in some situations, no leash attached at all).  If a dog pulls like a train, even a martingale can put a lot of pressure on their trachea, just like a flat collar.  It has the advantage of not letting dogs 'back out' of it, and for dogs with heads not much bigger than their necks (ex. sighthounds, dachshunds), or dogs that hide behind you and try to get away (shy/scared), they can be a lifesaver. 

And dogs can walk in front of you, even to the end of the leash, if you want them to.  I'd add, if they're not dragging you down the road - unless you're rollerblading or skijoring in the winter.  If you want to keep from running into them (if they tend to weave in front of you, or stop to smell something on your side of the walk), then, yes, keeping them to one side or the other (I like to my left because I want to keep my right hand/arm free), and nearby so you know what they're doing (so you don't keep blithely walking on when your dog stops to pee - or tries to walk through the poison ivy) is best.  And if it's meant to be a walk for exercise (for both of you), then, by all means, walk with a purpose on the outbound part, and ease up as a cool down on the way home.  This is great for those very active dogs to get the edge off so that the trip home can be slower and you can both stop to chat with people or smell the roses/peemail.  Then, a relaxed dog, at the end of the leash, isn't a problem.

KateH May 14th, 2009 01:48:17 PM

For people that prefer martingale collars you can use wide ones on small dogs to help protect the trachea. I like the company called "if it barks" for martingales you can order in the width you prefer. I hate the fact that prong collars are sold with no instructions at all to just anyone. Of course that applies to most dog equipment unfortuntaly. I do like that the gentle leader has a video included in some packages on how to use it properly. For people with small dogs I can also attest to a product called the "rope n go" that works well to curb pulling. It makes it uncomfortable for the dog to do so and is very adjustable. (I have only tried it with a demo that was given to me)

Tail wags,

Marie

http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie May 14th, 2009 05:23:57 PM

A word of caution, if you are using anything that hurts the dog when it gets reactive (i.e. barks and lunges when it sees other dogs or people) you could be adding to the stress and causing them to get more reactive with that tools use. The dog will make a negative association to the pain being caused by seeing the other dog/person, NOT to it's actions that are actually causing the pain. (pulling on the leash) So if you have a dog like that please seek out a good trainer with behavior knowledge or a canine behaviorist to learn how to work through that with proper behavior modification.

Tail wags, Marie

http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie May 14th, 2009 05:36:59 PM

KatieH,

Just to clear things up. I have never used a prong before at all ever. I have always walked with flat collar and 6 ft leash. 99% of the time , I have good results with the walk, reverse direction method of walking..it only takes a few lengths of the driveway to have a dog walking nicely beside me. Its the 1% that I have trouble with, hence wanted some direction in the use of other devices until the dog settles and learns that walks are cool. I doubt if I would continue to use a prong after a day or so of driveway practice. IMO , the less restictive crap on a dogs body, the better.I dont even like putting a coat on my APT, but she gets cold and hates to be wet and cries like a baby . My other problem with walking is that the dog is so busy watching  to see what I`m doing, it will either lean into my legs or trip me up with its feet so I`m always tense and ready for a tumble. Got any suggestions so I can relax and enjoy the outing instead of always being `in training`?

I`ve been doing rescue for several years so walking on leash is something my charges learn before they leave, even the pups.

Heather May 15th, 2009 08:31:02 AM

Heather, that's a good problem - a dog that's watching what you're doing! Most people have the dogs that are so thrilled to be sniffing and seeing everything but the person at the other end of the leash and that's when the pulling starts (and makes so many people stop walking their dogs).

Maybe you could have her focus on your hand (whichever one you walk her on), so that she'll stay at your side and could even learn a "move over" when you motion away from your leg. Even 6 inches away can make you feel more comfortable about not tripping over her. A large number of dogs I've walked will walk nicely, a foot or so away, and a foot or so forward, and then boom, there's a squirrel on the other side of the street, and they just walk in front of you on a collision course. Of course, the boy dogs that want to drag you to every bush, tree, and hydrant - whichever side of the street it's on - ask for more leash more often, but if you can do the 'exercise' walk out and the 'meander' walk home, they can learn that there will be time for sniffing after the 'real' walk is done. I hate bumping into dog's butts (especially the bony greyhound one's, ha,ha), and the reason they do it is that they aren't that focused on me. That's a problem with rescue dogs (especially greyhounds, who will walk with anyone,because so many people handle them during their racing careers, they have little 'leash loyalty'), who haven't bonded -of course, if they have, then the next person has to start again with getting them to focus on them.  You're a nice person to get them leash walk ready for adopters.  A focus tool of treats or a favorite toy that's only used on walks, would probably help them focus on your hand - as long as they're not too short.  Did you mean APBT?

KateH May 15th, 2009 05:38:42 PM

H. Houlahan, thanks for mentioning the upper arm restriction and long-term gait abnormalities from the "front clip" harnesses.  I figured it was "just me" since they are so popular and no one else ever mentioned it.

Donna May 16th, 2009 11:03:44 PM

A properly fitted prong collar:

fits smoothly, with the chain loop extended fully but not tight.

the size prong used should be equal to the length of the dog's canine tooth.

can only be put on by unhooking a link, never over the head.

Wendy May 20th, 2009 01:17:14 PM