Pet Patients What to do with a canine “sleep-biter”? (on “reflex” aggression in dogs)

Have you ever known a somnambulist? You know, a “sleepwalker”? If so, you’ll know this disorder, though usually benign, can sometimes lead them into odd situations where they do things like raid the fridge, drive the car or climb on the roof.

How about this one: Have you ever been sufficiently startled (out of a deep sleep or otherwise) that you reflexively defended yourself?

Something like a combination of these two scenarios is what we’re postulating as the problem afflicting one of the sweetest patients on my roster of unsolved cases.

This 3 year-old Doberman has now bitten his owner twice––in the face. One time he was sleeping deeply and she bent over to give him a kiss. The second time he had just woken up from a “running” dream (if you have dogs, you know the ones I mean) and the owner was lying next to him in bed. Other times, he seems groggy as he walks across the room after waking.

In both instances of aggression, the owner’s alarm––or the surprise of his own behavior––sent the dog running off to hide in a corner. “He was mortified,” she explained. Or was he simply freaked out at the situation? More than likely the latter.

Either way, after the second snap, she came to the conclusion that she needed to place him. But the list of homes for a dog like this––beautiful, young, well-bred dog though he is––is as long as my Frenchie’s muzzle. That is to say, “Good luck with that.”

After all, any responsible owner seeking to adopt out a dog like this has to make sure the adopting household has no children or elderly humans that may not act 100% reliably. And the home should be that of someone who understands that the dog may well bite them one day––for no good reason.

This unfortunate conundrum is why I’ve convinced this owner to take her to see the veterinary behaviorist in a neighboring county. Sure, it’s a long haul, but he’s worth it. And if there’s any possibility of eliminating this behavior and/or learning to live with it safely then Dr. Lisa Radosta can help. (This owner had already sought extensive one-on-one "training" with a non-veterinary behaviorist after the first bite.)

By now, you’re probably thinking along the same lines I am. Well, why not just crate the dog, as most all trainers and behaviorists now recommend, thereby ensuring that all those nighttime deep sleep moments are spent in a proper enclosure––not in the owner’s bed. Taking the dog for a walk or feeding him before close-face interactions would also help ward off the plastic surgeon.

No, it won’t prevent TV-watching, book-reading sleep interactions that arise from a simple startle reflex, nor will it alter true “sleepwalking”-related aggression, but it’ll certainly limit some of the more obvious trigger moments.

Ultimately, however, problem dogs like this are eventually euthanized unless an owner can find a comfort zone built around a new lifestyle for the dog. Sleeping at her feet during daily life, for example (not up on the bed and sofa where he currently spends all his free time).

But finding him a new home? Not so easy for a dog like this. That’s why I’m hoping a specific disorder might be diagnosed, one for which behavior modification and/or drugs would reduce the unwanted snaps. It might sound like a deeply flawed plan to you, but can you blame me for my wishful thinking?

May 13th, 2009

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As a canine aggression expert, I've dealt with similar cases, albeit maybe not identical. (Aggression upon being startled awake, sure. ...Many.)

It's impossible to say what's going on with this particular dog, without actually meeting it. But I really haven't had any difficulty correcting the "startled awake aggression" in other dogs. It all boils down to a multi-pronged approach including basic obedience training, socialization, exercise, and more specifically, teaching the dog (and, in the case of a privately-owned dog, I guess...the owner) about how to interact and respond.

While I'm sure I've inadvertently startled countless dogs awake, I certainly never do so intentionally. Part of the natural way I interact with dogs is through the use of gentle touching, massage, etc. I do it primarily to build a bond of trust with the dog, so it learns that hands mean good things, not pain or fear. (Many of the dogs I worked with had been abused or neglected.)

But that naturally leads to approaching the dog when it is sleeping, and gently coaxing it awake. Letting it know you are nearby. It's so automatic for me, that it's difficult to articulate in words. My cat recently had to take a twice-daily antibiotic. I would find him asleep or almost asleep, most of the times I went to pill him. It would be the farthest thing from my mind to just walk up to him and clasp my hand around his muzzle, and drop a pill into the startled cat's mouth. I coo. I say his name. Once he acknowledges that I'm there, then I can do what I need to do. Same goes for other situations. If he's clearly asleep, and I need to touch him or move him in some way, I make sure he's awake and recognizes me.

I only write all that because I've seen how obtuse many dog owners are, in this respect. I've seen people who actually delight in startling their pets.

I can imagine that if I took this dog, I would do all the usual training and socialization, just to make sure there was a minimum base line of contentment, respect, etc. Then I'd specifically work on the issues of waking, etc. Gently interacting with the dog, waking it calmly, rewarding good behaviour, ignoring or redirecting unacceptable responses. I would teach this dog what to expect from me, and would expect an improvement in the dog's reaction, over time.

I would be very surprised if this is the only area where this kind of dog displays aggressive behaviours. I suspect aggression towards strangers coming to the home or other dogs walking by. Possible resource guarding around food, either towards humans or other dogs. Aggressive behaviours don't just appear one day. They have to be incrementally practiced and rewarded to get to the successful biting stage.

After living free of this behaviour for some time, with different stimuli failing to elicit the response , the dog should be safe to send to a home, provided full disclosure of its past problem, of course.

I have worked with aggressive dogs almost exclusively. My success rate so far is 100%, and I never worked with any dog (even those with significant bite histories and dogs from fighting rings) longer than 6 weeks. While this problem sounds somewhat unique, it is possible the owner is unaware of other factors that she is knowingly or unknowingly contributing. A competent trainer should be able to correct this problem.

Marjorie May 13th, 2009 10:25:07 AM

"While this problem sounds somewhat unique, it is possible the owner is unaware of other factors that she is knowingly or unknowingly contributing."

I'm sure she's a nice, good person (or she wouldn't be going any extra miles to seek a solution), but what Marjorie said is so often the biggest part of the problem. Owners and kids who just cannot understand that what they are doing is causing a bad reaction drive me nuts. I hear, "The dog should never bite, for any reason - it's unacceptable" when the people have done little to no socialization, training, or observing of the dog to even try to not have situations occur. I'd say that they were purposely setting their dog up to fail, but it so, so often is that they're completely clueless about dogs (and often about how to train their children, or themselves, sadly).

Saddest dumb human/dog story: A woman who ended up in the hosptial with a horribly broken nose, ending up with two black eyes, because she startled her sleeping boyfriend awake and he swung and hit her directly in the middle of her face. Hospital staff call the police, long drawn interview that embarrasses her intensely. Boyfriend (thinking he's helping, gets his ex-wife to try to explain that he knocked one of her teeth out in a similar incident) gets into nasty 'talk' with cops and ends up in an overnight 'time out' in city jail. Six months later, girlfriend steps on sleeping dog's tail in a dark hallway, it bites her (but barely broke skin) in the leg and she takes dog back to shelter, because "the dog can't be trusted anymore." Shelter has had a spate of GSD biters and new director will not allow any to be pulled by rescue (which previous director had always called first) because the one dog that ever bit her was a GSD. Dog dies.

KateH May 13th, 2009 11:39:31 AM

Is there a way to test a dog for sleep apnea? In humans, it worsens somnabulism and startling on awakening; also would account for the grogginess. My Lab snored, startled on waking, and was groggy after snoring sleep; sleeping on a pillow resolved the issues.

PJBoosinger May 13th, 2009 11:48:53 AM

I liked how Marjorie said that aggressive behavior doesn't just appear one day. I tend to agree, and wonder that if in three years of life the dog truly has shown no aggressive behaviors (even subtle ones) if there's not an underlying neuro disease, like Dr. PK mentioned. If it is neuro, hopefully it's something treatable. But, my first thought is a brain tumor hiding somewhere. I've seen it several times in young dogs whose behavior is otherwise pristine until subtle, weird, aggressive episodes begin sporadically. Those cases weren't easy to diagnose but they all had the same pattern of weird, sudden aggressive episodes. Whether its turns out to be behavioral or medical, I hope that the current owner will stick with it and give the dog the benefit of the doubt that it is a good dog instead of giving it away to someone else, which would be such a shame for the dog.

Somyr Perry May 13th, 2009 12:38:16 PM

As someone who has been known to "strike out" upon waking - even when waking on my own - I can relate.

However, if this case truly is that simple (they seldom are) it's simply a case of management.

The mindset of "dogs should NEVER bite" drives me crazy too, KateH. I recently had a woman walk into my work, and approach my youngest cattle dog. Right off the bat I knew we were going to have trouble. She was loud, abrasive, confrontational, pushy and insisted on leaning over her head at every opportunity (which, on its own would not have been a problem - but coupled with the general persona of this woman, well... let's just say it would have made ME nervous, too).

We always encourage our dogs to investigate things, rather than run from them. So, my girl was doing her best to get a sniff in - from about five feet away. She was very obviously cautious, body leaning, ears pinned back, eyes focused on the woman, watching for any sudden movements. The woman approched her, and told her to sit. My pup was not sure how to respond. She knew what she was supposed to do, but did NOT feel comfortable giving up her standing position. She turned to look at me for direction, and the woman reached down, grabbed her by the collar, REEFED her in the air and said "SIT!"

We were both stunned, as was one of my co-workers. I didn't want to make a scene and further freak the dog out (after all, she handled it pretty well) so I calmly said "She's really not comfortable with you just yet, and I would prefer if you just gave her some space. She'll come to you on her own time." My pup had stood back up at this point - and the woman's response was to turn around, grab her by the collar again, and attempt to place her into a sit. Well, Fable had had enough. She growled and snapped the air next to the woman's hand. Nothing fierce, but a clear warning nonetheless. The woman didn't even flinch. "She needs to learn how to sit!" Oh, boy. I called Fable over, out of her reach, asked her to sit, to lie down, to stay, and there she remained until the woman left.

I said to my co-workers afterwards that I was a bit surprised by Fable's reaction, but really, how could I correct her for that? One of them pointed out that had I not moved her, the woman would likely have done it AGAIN, and gotten herself bitten. I repeated myself.. how could I correct self defence, particularly when the dog was clearly the one being accosted?

I think (again, if this is indeed a case of sleep rage) that there really is no behaviour modification possible - at least for the DOG. It's the human in the equation that needs the behaviour mod. Although apparantly negative reinforcement is not getting the point across. I agree that slowly attempting to desensitize the dog to waking in her owner's presence is prudent, but it does boil down to the owners responsibility for management. If she's not willing to do this, then placing the dog is what's best.

It's too bad we're so far away - we'd take her in a heartbeat.

Kim May 13th, 2009 12:40:04 PM

Wow, Kim, that you didn't reach over and grab the woman by the arm and growl in her face shows me that you're way nicer and patient than I am. I'd rather get bit in the butt by my dog when I step between him and some idiot like you described. People who bend over into any dog's face make me so impressed with all the dogs who show the ability to move away to change the dynamics of the situation. People are often so much dumber than dogs!

Now if I can ever get the vet I work for to stop doing it, I'll be so happy. But, as the lowly assistant, how could I know what I'm talking about? Aaarrrrggghhh!!!

KateH May 13th, 2009 12:50:57 PM

It is extremely difficult to truly "rest up" in our over stressed out, mechanized, electronic, instant fix seeking go go go society. I can't remember the last time I woke up feeling refreshed and ready to go. It's been a while. It's always something. A neighbors car door slamming at 2:00 AM. Sirens blaring. A helicopter circling overhead. A boom car. Etc. Animals are no less sensitive to these negative nerve wracking environmental factors then we are.

It's a very tough situation where natural relief from these stress factors is difficult if not next to impossible to achieve on any practicle wholesale basis. It's a real problem.

Evet May 13th, 2009 01:06:52 PM

Most problems go back to the person's lack of understanding their animal and its behavior. Domesticated animals, when appropriately raised and taught to inhibit their inclination to bite--seldom do.

I have to agree with the first comment--doesn't sound that difficult to address. It also doesn't sound like a neurological issue to me either--usually their are other symptoms that come with that.

Good for you for referring this case out. I wouldn't dismiss non-veterinary behaviorists but not all who say they are really truly are--the IABC is a good place to find people but before they were around I posted a page with referrals from my website to help those in their search.

The bottom line though is this--the person has to be willing to be 100% compliant with the course of action. Anything less simply isn't acceptable which is why many animals end up euthanized.

Finally, most pets don't bite their owners...

Find me blogging at Ark Animals

Ark Lady May 13th, 2009 01:24:27 PM

I think it's strange that the client's solution is to find the dog a new home (I'm assuming that's what was meant by the word "place")..."here, I can't tolerate her because she bites, but I bet she'd make a great pet for you"...? IMO the thing to do, as you already pointed out, Dr. K, is to avoid those situations in the first place - dog sleeps in kennel, not in bed/on couch with owner. If the dog needs to be awakened, do so from a safe distance, maybe with a whistle or something.

anna May 13th, 2009 01:39:00 PM

I woudl like to caution that "management" of aggressive dogs never works, in the long run.

I worked in canine legislation for many years, and was a dog bite researcher for nearly a decade. Of the incidents I inevestigated personally, dogs attributed with serious unprovoked bites always had known histories of aggression. It's pure mythology that dogs just "snap" and attack one day, without any prior history. In every, single case I investigated where the media, even the owners sometimes, claimed the biting dogs had no history of aggression, it always turned out to be a fabrication.

Minor bites aren't often reported, so it's more difficult to make generalizations. However, in my experience, even minor bites must involve dogs with known histories of aggression, since the pattern of escalation for aggressive behaviours (beginning with staring or stiffened body posture, and when not addressed, leads to menacing barking, growling, lungeing, attempted bites, and finally culminating in a dog's first successful bite) is predicated on a scale of escalation that is both predictable and necessary, to result in a successful bites. (I.E. no dog is born knowing that its teeth can cause pain, or that the threat of using its teeth to cause pain can successfully manipulate others.)

Moreover, the overwhelming majority of unprovoked biting incidents involve a dog that was inadequately supervised at the time of the bite.

The reason management, alone, is not a good strategy, is due to these two main facts of dog biting incidents. A dog that is known to be aggressive will continue that behaviour unless attempts are made to correct it. So, managing the dog (in the sense of simply attempting to avoid the instigating situations) will in no way cause the aggressive behaviours to disappear. (This is why I always caution local governments that public muzzle orders are not a panacea for aggressive dogs. Aside from the fact that the overwhelming majority of dog bites occur on private property - where muzzle orders typically don't apply - but if we muzzle an aggressive dog today, without requiring the owner to do anything different in the dog's training or care, then a year from now, that dog will be no less dangerous, and may even be more so.)

Second, when a dog is not adequately supervised, there is no management going on. It's all well and good to say that "if only" the owner had properly managed the aggressive dog, a bite wouldn't have happened. The fact remains that people are fallible, many dog owners are not especially responsible or knowledgeable, and dogs do sometimes escape their owners' supervision. This is when aggressive dogs are provided the opportunity to bite.

The most common bite scenarios are this kind of in-home aggressive behaviour, such as resource guarding, or other "dog making the rules" kind of thing. (I.E. Can only be touched in this way, or not on this part of the body, won't move from its spot, won't give up a toy, etc.) One survey concluded that about 1 in 8 pet dogs eventually bite. The majority of bites are against the owner. Even amongst reported bites (typically stranger bites or those serious enough to require medical attention) the most common victims are owners and others who know the dog (friends, relatives, neighbours). The lowest category for unprovoked bites are dogs being walked by their owners in public. (<1%) Supervision, plus the neutral territory, tends to prevent bites from occurring. (So, statistically, 7 our of 8 dogs never bite, and additional research shows 99.9% of all dogs will never be involved in an 'attack'.)

I don't use crates, myself. I don't have anything against them, so long as they're there as a refuge for the dog to come and go as it pleases, for transportation/isolation when necessary, and not as a means of avoiding behaviour problems. The entire essence of my work over 30 years was to show that long-term management and avoidance, is no solution at all, whereas training/behaviour modification and supervision, are the real solutions. I agree with the good doctor, in that crating the dog to avoid this problem is, at best, a bandaid which simply can't address all the everyday, real-world situations that could elicit a similar response. The only "solution" is to address the cause of the problem, and correct the undesirable behaviour. Management will, likely, lead to another biting incident of this kind.

Marjorie May 13th, 2009 02:19:42 PM

We had this problem with one of our cats. For a time, he was banned from the bedroom after I rolled over in my sleep only to find T (who had evidently been sleeping on the pillow beside me) wrapped around my face, gnawing on my forehead. Not cool.

It wasn't intentional, and he was clearly distressed when he came to... but that didn't change the fact that what he was doing was potentially dangerous. We were ultimately able to eliminate the behavior through socialization, desensitization, and making a conscious effort not to let anyone startle the cat or put him in a position where they could be injured. He is much less reactive than he used to be, and we've been safely sharing a pillow for years now.

In the interest of total honesty, said cat did eventually wind up on Reconcile for aggressive episodes related to a medical condition. That said, there were no obvious behavior changes or neuro issues at the time we were dealing with this stuff. It really seemed (in our case) to be a matter of socialization and prevention.

Here's hoping the behaviorist is able to give these guys some answers.

Kim- what a moron! Seems to me that both you AND Fable exercised impressive restraint!

Unfortunately, the casa de RC is dog-free at the moment.. but one of my biggest pet peeves is people provoking my cats to bite. With one exception, all arrived with major socialization issues (ferals, elderly cat who had been through a traumatic experience), and we've worked our tails off to ensure that they're well-socialized, confident, and don't feel the need to express themselves with teeth and nails. The last thing I want is to have an inconsiderate visitor set us back months of work by teaching them that aggression is an effective and acceptable means of halting unwanted human behavior. (Or that more benign means of communicating displeasure are clearly ineffective, therefore, when threatened, they ought to skip these and proceed immediately to Defcon 5.)

When an aunt came to live nearby, it was immediately apparent why two of her three dogs were biters. It was also immediately apparent that she would not be having any unsupervised access to my pets. "Oh, I don't care if she bites me!" Yeah, well that's all fine and good, but I DO. (Now please step away from the cat.) (/ rant.)

Ramen Connoisseur May 13th, 2009 02:20:52 PM

You’re fortunate, to have a veterinary behaviorist in your region, they are not always as easily accessible, in many cases, owners don’t want to pay for that type of help, they either learn to live with it, or as you say, look for alternatives such as re-homing. And in the case of a known biting dog, all precautions must be taken IF consideration is given to re-homing.

Considering the breed, I’m not a vet, narcolepsy could be a good starting place. This paper originally published in Archives Italiennes de Biologie (2001), vol: 139 iss: 3 pgs: 207-220. I had this paper, “A HUNDRED YEARS OF RESEARCH,” originally published in Archives Italiennes de Biologie (2001), vol: 139 iss: 3 pgs: 207-220. It provides a historical account on research for narcolepsy, as well providing a detailed account of research results and conclusions. Better understood, by someone with a genetics background 8-), but immediate thought was it could be narcolepsy given the breed. Two breeds, Dobermans and Labradors are identified carriers.

I will say, it is dangerous for anyone to go up to a sleeping dog to try to “give it a kiss.” I believe, this was suggested in one of Steven Lindsay’s texts. Hence, why the saying, “let sleeping dogs lie.”

Suggesting kenneling and keeping dogs off beds and/or other resting locations where the owner may be in close proximity to the dog, would only be management strategies, and even as you say, for this dog to remain, even in this, same home would require due diligence. This owner was willing to go the extra yard, referring her on was the right thing to do.

And, btw, thanks for including Dr. Radosta’s link, I was not aware of her in Florida. I was aware of only two Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorists in Florida, Dr. Soroya Juarbe-Diaz, who also works, in south Florida and Dr. Teri Curtis in Gainesville.

joyce kesling, CDBC May 13th, 2009 02:55:50 PM

While the owner clearly has been at risk, it certainly would make sense to consider some lifestyle alternatives and rule out any possibility of non behavioral issues. Is there an underlying medical condition? Neurological, liver, endocrine (I know, this dog is young), pain response? How can one know without complete work-up? Assuming based on how it 'sounds' won't get us anywhere. We all have seen animals present with both typical and unusual histories that would belie the outcome. Certainly close observation when the dog is awake and aware for even slight shifts in behavior...along with a very detailed history are in order. Perhaps this person isn't fully sensitive to subtle gradual shifts in her dog's behavior. If she is willing to spend the time, a painfully detailed history and interview approach focused on every aspect of this dog's environment, schedule, and behavior might disclose a timeline of acute or chronic activity. Knowing to ask the right questions is vital and tricky.

Whether strictly behavioral or in combination with medical concerns, passing the problem on to someone else without offering a better understanding of cause and effect is irresponsible unless it is a specific rescue group that is prepared and willing to work with veterinarians and behaviorists.

Having said that, I'm still concerned about the potential risk for harm-especially if this is an undetected progressive disease which will bring continued unpredictable behavior, or soley a behavior problem which will bring well, predictably unpredictable issues.

If the owner has the time, money, and tolerance, I'm after the answers before deciding on the solution, while putting some sensible preventative measures in place for everyone's well-being. In the end, no one can force her to keep this dog, but it would be nice to give it a decent chance, while being responsible as well.

Renee May 13th, 2009 03:22:33 PM

Arghhh, I have known of 4 cases, all admitted startling the dog from a sound sleep. Three of the 4 owners immediately wanted to dump the dog or euthanize. One owner immediately did the PTS. Two wanted the dog re-homed. And one was wise enough to put modifications in place.

Where did the "let sleeping dogs lie" quote come from---as mentioned above? Some dogs are nearly in a coma when they sleep and other wake up to a chip bag crumple a mile away. I think doxies have been diagnosed with narcolepsy too. But it could be a myriad of things, including poor or unilateral hearing, who knows?

One thing is to move the dog's sleeping quarters into a less busy place & surely not with the owner on the couch or bed!

Personally, I don't view it as an aggression or resource guarding, unless spilled over into other circumstances.

Pocket's Story from New Hampshire

Barbara A. Albright/NH May 13th, 2009 03:35:38 PM

Sorry, but the owner sounds a bit clueless to me.

Sleeping animals should be left alone, or touched only very carefully. Why doesn't the owner talk to a sleeping dog befor approaching it. I can touch my sleeping cat, but I don't bend over to kiss her, I gently stroke her back, if I msut touch her. Then she yawns and stretches if she is actually waking up. She actually prefers the foot of the bed, on top of the covers, though. When I had a dog, I left her lying, or would call her first.

If the dog is wakened from a distance by the owner's voice first, he has a chance to yawn and stretch. After this "incident" this dog should not be sleeping with humans anyway. Give him his own bed that is a refuge, don't let him sleep on the couch or bed with humans. This would be common sense, which is uncommon. If this owner got a crate for the dog, I have visions of more trouble because of poking fingers into the crate, and then wondering why the fingers get bitten!

Miss Kitty's Mom May 13th, 2009 09:21:39 PM

The dog was scared awake, both times.

I have a JRT rescue that is the same way. I learned the first time he hit me with his teeth, to speak to him quietly until he woke up. We live in harmony now and no bites.

I dont see why this is so difficult to figure out. If the dog didnt bite before, when it was awake, crate him at bedtime . If the dog is asleep during the day, speak to him , several times if necessary, until he is fully awake. And dont stick a face in his until he is awake.

Crate training is simple. Most dogs I have been in contact with over the years like their crates. They have their own space . Human needs lesson in behaviour modification not dog. The dog is a dog, not a people. I love my dogs very much . Killing them or giving them away for something I have caused is unthinkable. JMO

Heather May 13th, 2009 10:11:37 PM

Why, exactly, is the word "aggression" being used to describe this poor dog's behavior? His only apparent problem is an idiot owner.

You don't startle a dog awake. You don't lean over a sleeping dog to plant a kiss on his head. If you have to wake a sleeping dog, you speak first, make some noise, and touch the dog only when awareness has returned.

Many dogs do just fine sleeping on the owner's bed. Many don't. My current dog is a peaceful sleeper and peaceful waker. A previous dog was more nervous and easily startled, and she slept in her own bed where she wouldn't be accidentally disturbed. Awake and aware, she was the gentlest creature I've ever known, but awakened suddenly, she got scared and snapped in self-defense before she know what was happening.

Calling that "aggression" is just obscene, and comes from the "no dog must ever bite anyone ever under any circumstances" mindset. Lots of humans reflexively lash out when startled awake; should we regard all of them as criminals, too?

Lis May 13th, 2009 11:18:34 PM

Man, I'm torn about this thread.

When I was 15, my mother & I adopted a dog from a local shelter. We weren't warned that she'd had a history of dog aggression (though the shelter LATER told us she'd had a problem with that). Two months after adopting her, shit bit me in the face while sleeping in my bed. The shelter assured us that it was just the result of a dog being startled. Two months after THAT, she bit a friend of mine, who was very gently petting her (the dog growled for about two seconds before biting). The girl required stitches and plastic surgery to repair the damage.

After that, the shelter gave us free lessons with their behavioral specialist, and eventually free obedience lessons, but they didn't help. I admit that part of it was because both my mother and I just weren't capable of handling the dog--by that point I was terrified of her when she showed signs of aggression, and because the lessons were at the shelter, and she also had dog aggression problems, she'd spend the entire session snarling and lunging at any nearby animal. We eventually relinquished her to the pound, who had to have her put down. It was a heartbreaking eight-month ordeal. When she wasn't reacting aggressively, Lucy was a very sweet-seeming dog and we loved her dearly. We just weren't capable of handling the situation. Maybe that made us bad owners (certainly bad owners for her, I suppose--we've had two dogs since who have been well trained and well behaved with no aggression problems). But the whole experience just makes me feel sick to my stomach when you hear truisms like "there are no bad dogs; only bad owners"--because sometimes you're really trying your best and the situation still falls apart.

Phoebe May 13th, 2009 11:40:33 PM

Yes, Pheobe, as I try to explain to those handling aggressive dogs, it doesn't just get better through management. An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog, no matter what the current target of its aggression today. It will likely expand to different targets, over time. That is the normal progression. For example, in most cases where a dog's first bite against a person causes significant injury, it usually has had prior incidents of aggression towards other animals...most often other dogs. People have this naive idea that a dog which is only aggressive towards other animals today will remain that way for the rest of its life. But when aggression is allowed to flourish, it tends to expand to other targets, over time. If I had a nickel for every owner of a biting dog who said he/she was "surprised" the dog bit someone "because it had only attacked other animals in the past"...well...I'd have a lot of nickels.

I find that peoiple don't want to label their dogs as being aggressive. ...Which is understandable. Many people are frightened of aggression in dogs. Most don't understand it. Few seem to know how to correct it.

I'm not afraid of aggression in dogs. I understand how it develops, and I know how to correct it. My definition for an aggressive dog is one that exhibits aggressive/threatening behaviour at any time when the dog isn't actually being physically threatened with harm. If the target of the aggression is any individual that is not actually attempting to harm the dog, then that aggression is unwarranted, and means the dog's unacceptable behaviour must be addressed.

As I have mentioned in the past, I have run several responsible dog ownership web sites, including one dedicated to do almost nothing but refute common myths. One of the biggest myths (or bits of bad advice) is the one that goes, "Never touch a sleeping dog." If I could rid that from our collective consciousness, I would do it, because it blindly misses the point, and even tends to create the exact kinds of problems we're reading about here.

The actual rule is to not approach unsupervised dogs. If it's not your dog, and the owner is nowhere around, then you shouldn't be interacting with that dog (with a few exceptions, of course). It doesn't matter if it's sleeping, eating, or dancing a jig, if the owner isn't there to direct both the dog's, and your, behaviour, then steer clear of any unsupervised dog.

But if it's your own dog, it is your duty to teach your dog to accept interuption during ANY activity: eating, sleeping, playing with a toy, etc. You do this through conscious action and training, until the dog is clearly reliable.

Many, many, many dog owners allow their dogs to make the rules in the house, and it is these owners that I end up dealing with (or their dogs, after they've dumped them) because they've allowed the dog to develop bad behaviours. I come across people who say they can't do this or that because the dog 'doesn't like it' or the dog 'won't allow it', and I can do little more than shake my head in disbelief.

When I was describing gently waking a dog, I meant that purely out of respect for the dog. I tend not to do things to dogs that I wouldn't want done to myself. That said, I would never permit a dog to act aggressively towards me, or any innocent person or animal. I don't walk around on eggshells with any dog. ...Far from it! Animals follow my rules, and that's it. As I said, though, I have corrected the "startled awake aggression" many times, and see no reason not to at least attempt those successful methods with this dog. I'm open to the idea that something different is going on here, other than the run-of-the-mill "startled awake aggression" too many dogs exhibit. But I think some due diligence by a competent trainer will determine whether this is a rather unique case, or more like the thousands of dogs who exhibit this kind of behaviour, and their owners do little more than "manage" it. (You know, by never touching the dog when it's sleeping, so the dog increasingly feels it has the right not to be touched and that behaviour becomes more ingrained, and then someone who doesn't know the rule with this dog, often a visiting young child, is bitten.)

Really simple and quick training techniques keep this problem from developing, and will correct it, once it has, in the vast majority of dogs who exhibit this kind of behaviour. I don't toerate in my house, and it stops pretty darn quickly, once I observe it.

Aggressive behaviours don't magically appear one day. And they don't go away without intervention. Usually, they worsen without intervention. As an aggression specialist, I would never allow a dog to behave aggressively towards any innocent person or animal, no matter the circumstance. I wouldn't simply hide it away, though. I would tackle the problem, and correct it.

Marjorie May 14th, 2009 07:06:27 AM

To Barbara Albright above, i believe i gave you the source of the quote, Steven Lindsay. If you have not read or not familiar with his textbooks Volume One, Two and Three, all titled Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, i believe you will find it there. His textbooks are considered the bible for many of us who study dogs and their behavior. That quote is actually an old quote, i believe i used it in one of my papers published on my website www.responsibledog.net . Try looking through there, i would have given credit also to the original author. Also, to say you "think" doxies have been identified as carrying the gene (?) for narcolepsy doesn't give anyone any affirmative data.

This is clearly not a training issue, this dog needs a medical workup first, and eliminating any known breed tendencies are a good starting point.

joyce kesling, CDBC May 14th, 2009 10:11:40 AM

Truth be told, I'm NOT that patient - with people, that is. The situation with Fable had little to do with the person and everything to do with the dog. She's only six months old, and is still developing in her reactions to novel situations. So far, her reactions have been typical herding/cattle dog reactions - bark/alert at new stimuli, approach cautiously, lose interest once object/noise/movement deemed safe.

I wanted to see what her reaction was going to be, as she had never been challenged in such a fashion by a complete stranger before. I was admittedly surprised that her reaction escalated past a growl (I've never corrected any of my dogs for vocalizing - my older cattle dog's reaction would have been to growl and then walk away, an acceptable reaction as far as I'm concerned). I also did not want to make a big deal out of the situation in front of her and possibly escalate her negative reaction in the future.

We now know what her standard reaction to such a situation is, and can work towards altering it. We will have strangers approach her, rough her up a bit (gently!) and teach her to walk to me for reward. She meets about 120 people a day, so I'm not particularly concerned about turning her off strangers. Her interactions with people are *overwhelmingly* positive.

@Joyce - Here is a source for the narcolepsy gene affecting doxies, dobes and labs. http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_narc.html

'nuff said.

Kim May 14th, 2009 05:55:33 PM

Hugely interesting topic! Joyce, I read that in Dog Fancy years ago, about Daschunds & narcolepsy.

Marjorie, that means you feel a dog-aggressive dog, but fine with people, is just waiting to escalate behavior? And a dog that seemingly , all of a sudden, becomes aggressive might not have a serious pain issue going on?

And how about a dog that is "selectively" dog aggressive? I had one for years.

Barbara A. Albright/NH May 14th, 2009 06:24:18 PM

Great topic! I have ALWAYS taught my kids and grandkids never bother a dog that is eating or sleeping. That said, you could take food out of my boys' mouths while they are asleep- gentle souls that they are... But not ALL dogs are and that's what I advise my kids to go by..

Secondly- the aggression issue - I had to put down a great pyrenees on Feb 16 due to dog aggression. He was a rescue I was working with, and I had been MANAGING him...keeping him apart from my pittie..my pittie kept getting hammered by the pyrenees...

Anyway- I got sick, my sister came up and took care of me and got in the middle of a full-blown dog scuffle. She got scratched, my pittie got injured, and the I realized I didn't have the ability to SAFELY manage this dog any longer...he was manageable while I was there to supervise... but he was not safe on his own.

a great topic, a hard call to make. My heart goes out to anyone who has had to make a hard decision that ends up taking the life of a dog..

agadoresmama May 14th, 2009 07:22:03 PM

a great topic, a hard call to make. My heart goes out to anyone who has had to make a hard decision that ends up taking the life of a dog..

agadoresmama May 14th, 2009 07:22:21 PM

a great topic, a hard call to make. My heart goes out to anyone who has had to make a hard decision that ends up taking the life of a dog..

agadoresmama May 14th, 2009 07:22:40 PM

sorry about the triple whammy the site kept giving me an error I didnt' think it went thru

agadoresmama May 14th, 2009 07:25:29 PM

agadoresmama: My heart goes out to you. We (as in club -sponsored) have been always able to place a dog aggressive Scottie, but never a human one, because that is unpredictable. And that is when I have had to make that same sad call, along with other foster care folks.

Very heart-breaking, more so than apparent physical illness--treatable or non-treatable. Not too long ago, a foster mom spent months & months, along with professional help-- all to no avail. The emotional attachment of one on one investment made for big sadness and depression, a very young dog too. Part genetic, part wrong environment?

Barbara A. Albright/NH May 15th, 2009 10:01:38 PM

What a great discussion. I think it's hard for a lot of people to admit they've made a mistake. Unfortunately, they are often willing to sacrifice a dog's life for it. I have a shockingly healthy 16-year-old malamute mix. About 5 years ago, she was sleeping on my bed. Like an IDIOT, I leaned over to kiss her on the head. Sometimes I'm just an idiot, that's all!

I heard a very brief growl, followed by her chomping the side of my face. I took her to a wonderful vet who has seen it all and is long on common sense. I said that I was concerned whether there was something wrong with the dog. She said, "The dog was sleeping. You startled her. Don't do that." Ever since then, I have awakened this girl by stroking her gently with my foot. No problems at all, even though she's now senile as heck. Thank goodness I didn't make my stupidity into the dog's problem.

pitbull friend May 15th, 2009 11:27:37 PM

there was a column in a recent newspaper (unfortunately I was out of town so am not sure WHICH newspaper, and Google ain't helping me today) about this type of situation, and the "Answer" part inferred that there is a possibility of some "inin" imbalance (I was thinking it said seratonin, but could have been dopamine or melatonin or...). Does anyone else remember this column, would have been within the last 7-10 days. My girl also has this issue, both sleeping and awake. Fortunately we have no skin-kids, so we just let her come to us for petting, but it really does not seem to be a "behavioral" (e.g., training or something WE do) thing. I don't immediately look to pills for a solution (we've had our girl 5 years and she's not going anyplace), but it would be nice to find a solution! If something happened to US and she had to be "placed" I'd worry about her.

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hakmah June 27th, 2009 11:45:04 AM

I'm probably wrong, but I'm opinionated. The main difference between mammals which have been domesticated and those that haven't are the instincts related to socializing with their own which we capitalize upon.

In college I had a bear. Yeah, I know it's politically incorrect, but it had been a tradition for 150 years to have a live mascot, and my senior year they decided to have a doofus in a costume. Not on my watch. So I got one myself.

Bears don't really travel in flocks or packs. My 65 pound cub which was angry at being forcably weaned could shred a rugby team (don't ask how I know that). My only chance at controlling him was getting him to think of me as a dominant bear before he figured out otherwise. So the first night the two of us were locked in a janitorial closet together. I figured one of us was going to get bit, so I jumped on him and bit him behind the ear. One of my hands pretended to be a second mouth and it bit him on the butt at the same time...and I held on thinking that I had made a big mistake.

I held him like that until he submitted about three hours later. Though I could teach him tricks and though he wouldn't bite me if I were watching him, whenever I had my back turned he would attempt to bite my butt. He was never going to be domesticated, it wasn't his nature. There would always be a challenge because that's the way bears treat each other.

Domesticatable animals have the ability to remember their place within the group. They don't require constant battles for position. Only when the group dynamic changes (like a new baby) do you have to worry about the animal having to re-establish its place in the group.

Most people have no clue about this dynamic with their pet and spend no time in developing a proper hierarchy within the family. Unfortunately many animals don't know their position, or worse assume the dominate role. Some friends had a cat that was a terror. I simply picked it up by the scruff of the neck and carried it around the house like a mama would carry a kitten, then I put it in a closet and covered it with a towel for a few minutes. When I went and got it out, I had been established as its mother and could scratch its belly. So I had all the family members do the same.

It was still young enough that we could tap into the instinctive nature and behavior. The cat now will walk away if it doesn't like something rather than shred the miscreant kid. He is the lowest on the hierarchy and is more relaxed and secure there because he knows his place and doesn't have to challenge everyone.

Not knowing his place made him psychotic.

I would suspect that a dog that bites when it wakes does not have a well define postion within his pack. His dreams are the exaggerated reality of challenging or being challenged on a daily basis. His stress level is high since his instincts are not satisfied by knowing his place.

A young dog can generally be put in his place. It is riskier with an older dog. On a rare occassion a dog just thinks he's boss and no matter what you do will not learn otherwise. I had a Shitzu like that. If he had been more than a pound or two I would have had it put down because it would have been dangerous. He thought he could dominate even our 150# Malmute-Shepherd mix, who generally just ignored him.

When I am leading my goats, if they get ahead of me I change direction so that I am leading. If ever one of them thought he was the dominant goat, there would be no way I could catch them. Capitalize on their instinctive nature.

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