No, I didn’t suddenly grow a pair overnight. But I do have plenty of first-hand experience on this issue. Though women serve as the primary caretakers when it comes to pets’ veterinary needs (in the US, about 3 to 1 over men), a surprising percentage of my own clients come from the testosterone-rich crowd among us.
These Miami men are usually educated and polite Hispanic males, but I get all ethnicities, races and classes, too. And, as you might imagine, plenty of “dogs” happy to ogle at a veterinarian sporting high heels and a librarian look (the glasses help).
Yesterday’s client was pretty typical of most of my male clients. A former rottweiler owner, he’d finally settled down to a pair of shelter pups of a smaller, Shih-tzu-ish type (perhaps a concession to his new wife?).
Because “Double” and “Trouble” had presented for their last well-puppy visits, discussing neutering was on my agenda. As usual, I steeled myself against the protests I normally have to overcome when braving these perilous waters with male clients of the visibly macho, athletic persuasion. Treading lightly, I advanced the topic. And, to my surprise, he blurted out, “Oh yes, please! How soon?”
Surprised and intrigued by this seemingly sudden change of heart, I couldn’t help but remind him how difficult it had been for me to convince him to neuter his rottweilers––one, in particular, who had suffered significant distress with a recalcitrant prostatic condition (neutering is the ideal “cure” for these patients).
That’s why I posed the question that was on my mind: Do you think it might be different for you this time because they’re small dogs?
The answer arrived hesitatingly, but he eventually confessed that it had been easier for him to identify personally with his larger dogs in this regard. He’d been resistant because of the empathy he’d felt for his rottweilers’ loss of “manliness.” With these smaller dogs, not only were they less macho by design, but their fluffiness made their testicles an “out of sight, out of mind,” non-issue.
Interesting, right?
The inappropriate marking behavior was already starting to show, he also explained. Whereas it had been easier to curtail his larger dogs’ indoor marking, the little ones occasionally urinated with impunity on furniture by virtue of their underfoot dimensions and their fluffy stealth. Hence, the request for sooner-rather-than-later sterilization.
This honest response jibed well with my typical findings. Though I seldom ask outright about male outlooks on neutering (some men can be quite hostile on the subject), I will query the occasional, receptive man. Not only does this build my confidence with respect to how to approach other men, it means I gain critical knowledge on how to do battle when neutering becomes essential for an individual dog’s health.
It’s like Sun Tzu said in The Art of War (and Machiavelli parroted) “Know thy lot, Know thine enemies, Know thyself.”
And, just in case you think me too willing to consider this an adversarial issue, I’ll quote Ulysses S. Grant, too: “I never advocated war except as a means of peace.”
‘Nuff said.
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I work as a groomer in an SPCA Shelter. At least twice a week we have "the talk" with an owner who's puppy has happily decorated our walls, our vacuum, our mop bucket, stools (occasionally each other) to hear, "He's such a nice boy we just want to have one like him." And its usually women who bring this argument to the table.
We have tried pointing out the health benefits (reduction in testicular and prostate cancer for boys, breast cancer for girls) as well as the obvious over-population problem that currently exists. I'm not sure that we are having an impact there.
I fought my husband for seven years to get his German Shepherd - Golden Lab fixed. I've always owned females, and they have always been fixed as early as my vet would agree to perform the surgery. The one exception was the Cocker before this one, who I adopted from the shelter around age 5. Sadly, she developed breast cancer and passed away two years ago.
The kittens at our shelter quite often have a "pediatric spay" performed. Is the same procedure available in dogs?
BCBev May 15th, 2009 09:45:42 AM
Inspired choice on the accompanying photo, Dr. K.
Judy May 15th, 2009 09:53:19 AM
GREAT post, Dr. K! You write like an angel and any veterinarian who can quote Sun Tzu gets my respect.
Carrie May 15th, 2009 10:38:59 AM
I love our male vet because he approached the subject with a straightforward "...and when will you be coming in to visit me for a little operation?". Polite as he is, he gently put the onus on the owner to defend the position of keeping the pet 'entire'. While I completely respect someone else's right to choose otherwise for their pet, I still basically think they're wrong not to neuter if they don't plan to breed.
My husband is on board with this, and completely agrees. His best friend, on the other hand, thinks it's 'cruel'. And I noticed that as he said it, he winced and shifted in his seat as if someone had taken a scalpel to him. *sigh*. It's really just as well he's allergic so will never have a pet.
Alex May 15th, 2009 11:15:14 AM
There is a cultural element to the attitude although I think all men may wince at the thought of the neuter. I rescued a litter of feral kittens in a small Italian town called Agnagno (near Naples) and the quite lovely and gregarious manager of the hotel asked me if they would be "clip clip" making a scissors motion with his hand. I said yes, and he exclaimed in protest, something about lovemaking being the most important thing in life and it is cruel to neuter male cats. (He would have been happy to know that none of the kittens ended up being male, and I was happy to know that I took four potentially breeding females out of circulation and into good homes). I take it neutering of male cats is not widely popular there, but then it seems, neither is keeping them indoors.
Stefani May 15th, 2009 11:22:27 AM
...I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe. At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings... Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature. . . Morihei Ueshiba
Thankfully my Vet doesn't write me off as "crazy"
Evet May 15th, 2009 11:35:57 AM
Anyway, hormones (biological juices) most definitely create a major dilemma for everyone. Is it possible that the urge to reproduce could be based upon a particular stimulant within the structure of sexual hormones? And could this stimulant somehow be reversed or neutralized with out the need to snip off ones private parts? Is it sub atomic in nature or are these instincts triggered by "mental" stimuli? Why is it animals seem to have a "season" and humans have evolved to more of a "open season"?
Questions and mystery's.
Evet May 15th, 2009 11:54:23 AM
LOL . . okay thinking further if a few CC's of oral "medicine" could be given to pets to safely to neutralize sexual instinct without side effects it would be a wonderful thing. On the human side of things if the same was devloped for the people I doubt anyone would interested and it would probably be the most rejected panacea in history.
Evet May 15th, 2009 12:23:36 PM
Evet: There's huge money out there for anyone who devises a safe and effective non-surgical method of pet sterilization. I think $50 million was the number being tossed around.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 15th, 2009 01:01:45 PM
Oh, and here's a post on this.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 15th, 2009 01:03:58 PM
first, I have no problem with neutering/spaying animals in my care (having it done by a competent vet, when appropriate).
second, I noticed the conversation with Double-Trouble man-owner didn't explain the socially-accepted (do it, always, soonest) stance versus health-of-the-dogs in your charge (at an appropriate age, such as when they have grown as much as they probably will). it is known that spaying/neutering before the dog is grown is detrimental to the dogs' health. doing it anyway is prioritizing social engineering over the health of the animal. there are alternatives, discussed at length by this author in other posts, if unwanted reproduction is the issue.
eli May 15th, 2009 01:19:45 PM
"this author", referring to Dr K.
eli May 15th, 2009 01:21:10 PM
I like to descride the neuter phobic men as "The Mickey Mouse Watch at 6:30". We also describe unnecessary testicles as "little tumors" that need to be removed. A little humor helps to ease some resistance at times.
Hobson May 15th, 2009 01:24:40 PM
Hobson: Cute. I like it.
Eli: I always consider this a discussion, not a rant or a mandate. The pros and cons get weighed. The owner makes the decision based on the facts. In many cases, I recommend waiting until physiological maturity is achieved. But owners always know the score. There's never a hard-sell and we always have to respect the owner's decision. The only time I don't is when the health and comfort of the animal is currently or imminently at risk. Hence the need to be battle-ready.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 15th, 2009 01:51:18 PM
Doc I wish I could just snatch the code out of the ether in a dream or see a completed blueprint in my head like Tesla could cause I could think of a lot things to do with that $50 Million that could make this a better world.
Evet May 15th, 2009 02:11:10 PM
Dr K - you practice in high heels?? LOL I can't even walk in them much less practice :)
J.C. May 15th, 2009 02:36:04 PM
LOVE your choice of photo for this post!
Have you ever used those inserts, I think they're called "Neuticles" after neutering dogs? A practice I worked at many many years ago actually had a request for them once. Maybe they're not even around anymore.
Ingrid King May 15th, 2009 03:04:55 PM
I recently had one of those "Mickey Mouse at 6:30" guys bring his pup in for its last round of vaccines. He gave all the usual excuses for not wanting to neuter. Given that he was my age (college student) and we had a pretty good rapport going, I dropped the professional "helpful tech" tone and basically said, "C'mon, man...your dog has a brain the size of a ping-pong ball...he doesn't know what his balls are for and he won't miss them if they're removed. You're being silly and you're risking prostate enlargement, prostate and testicular cancer, and behaviorial issues. We're not after yours - just his!" He turned red, laughed hysterically, then said nobody had ever really said it to him like that before...and then he scheduled a neuter appointment, no hard feelings. Obviously, that particular approach would probably offend the vast majority of our clients, but I've found that being straightforward and humorous with guys my age usually wins them over.
anna May 15th, 2009 03:43:49 PM
When I brought my pupy in for his last round of shots my vet asked if we were planning to stud him out. I said I don't know, I will see what I have when he matures. He is a good lab from good breeding and if he turns into a very healthy behavoraly upstang dog I may choose to stud im out. If not we will chop him. My vet seemed to respect my decision, only cautioning that the biggest health concern she sees in intact males are car incidents. She also mentioned that it will be cheeper to fix him before his horomones hit.
Jacob L'Etoile May 15th, 2009 04:05:31 PM
I actually mentioned to my husband in passing that I was thinking that if we got another dog (we have 4 now so it hopefully be a LONG time from now) that if it was a boy I might want to wait to neuter until he was 1-2 years old. (Not that we even would want a puppy, but it was a hypothetical conversation.) I mentioned a lot of the reading I'd done, and the fact is I have no doubt I could keep an intact male from impregnating anyone, etc., and if it would truly be better for the dog, I might want to hold off.
He was emphatically against it. He is of the mindset (which I must take some credit/responsibility for) that 99% of all cats/dogs should be altered ASAP. It's really kind of funny, since so many men are of such a very different mindset. But then, that's why I married him, and not them...he's different.
Brooke May 15th, 2009 04:48:17 PM
Ingrid: Yep. I've done Neuticles in a handful of cases. They're easy and safe. Virtually no risk. But WHY...? The way I see it, if that's what it takes to neuter a dog that needs it then that's what I'll do. No reservations and no questions asked. I do charge a hefty premium for this, though.
Here's an old post on it.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 15th, 2009 05:08:25 PM
"...their fluffy stealth" that's hysterical.
I tell people that's we "tutor" them so they can learn better. That is humorus enough and I can go right into training, especially house training, being easier if the dog can focus on the people instead of the other dogs around them.
KateH May 15th, 2009 05:55:57 PM
"We're after his - not yours..." LMAO
I'm soooo going to use that. ;O)
Kim May 15th, 2009 07:48:00 PM
I welcome any insight into the male psyche regarding neutering!
JCB May 15th, 2009 08:19:09 PM
I heard a husband and wife in our complex arguing over this one and the wife said something like: "I'm not putting up with two pairs in the house so it's either his or yours. You choose."
PJBoosinger May 16th, 2009 12:07:44 AM
Since we show dogs, we're used to having intact males and usually they aren't a problem at all (the females of course require more management and diligence, but we're used to that too).
But I have to say, I remember the day about 15 years ago when I knew that the man I was dating at the time was "the one". That happened when he fininished the AKC Championship on one of his male Saint Bernards. He had handled the dog himself all the way, and it was his first Champion and he was justifiably thrilled. But instead of standing the dog at stud, the first thing he did was get the dog neutered because he was starting to get a bit aggressive toward other dogs, and he was WAY too big and strong for that to be allowed to escalate. I didn't even have to suggest it, it was his idea! :-)
Barb May 16th, 2009 01:28:29 AM
"Since I have re-examined my posiiton I have become increasingly aware of the positive glee with which some people, almost always women, talk about yanking the balls off male dogs and I start to wonder if the men who flinch at the idea are the only ones who are projecting their personal feelings onto dogs."
Linda: Can't say you're wrong, there. That's a whole other post, right?
Dr. Patty Khuly May 16th, 2009 11:14:27 AM
Dr. Pat said: Yep. I've done Neuticles in a handful of cases. They're easy and safe. V irtually no risk. But WHY...?
My idea is to combine Neuticles with nurtaceuticals; that is, saturate the implants with vitamins and minerals. That way, when the dog licks himself "down there," it will release a daily dose of these nutritional needs.
Now something just a weird from real life: One day a lady wearing a snood (orthodox head covering) brought in a tom cat to be neutered. She asked that I give her a dollar to hold until she came for him that evening at which time she would pay the regular fee along with the dollar. Her explanation was that, while har ultra-orthodox group could own neutered animals, it was forbidden to perform or have performed castration on their animals. When I gave her the dollar, I would be (temporarily) buying the cat from her; so, technically, it would not be her cat at the time it was castrated. When I informed her that I was a member of the same stiff-necked tribe, she found someone at the front desk to "buy" the cat.
Dr. Steve Dubin May 16th, 2009 02:02:12 PM
It's not possible to just tie the tubes of a male feline? Or just more complex and time consuming then the human anatomy? I wonder what approach cats would take if they we're "above us" and we were on the "table"?
Laughs oh lots of laughs that would make a great movie script. Planet of the Cats
Evet May 16th, 2009 03:54:22 PM
Dr. Dubin: Yes yes yes. I used to work in North Miami Beach and at another hospital further south on the Beach where large Orthodox communities lived. I--many times--had to buy a cat or dog for neutering. It was also important to raise the issue of neutering and spaying in the context of these religious rules. In other words, I would, during the exam room discussion on spaying and neutering, offer to buy the pet for the day of the visit. Nothing legal on paper, mind you, just a dollar at drop-off. I don't think I ever offended anyone by this and the pets got the care their owners freely chose for them.
Now, as far as I'm concerned, you can't cheat God. Nor does S/he likely care about a pet's spay/neuter status, what with all that's happening in the Universe. But in a highly legalistic religion like Judaism (ever read Leviticus?) it makes a lot of sense. And I, for one, will do whatever it takes to give my clients the freedom to opt for sterilization.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 16th, 2009 05:42:23 PM
Oh, and I love your idea for "impregnated" neuticles (LOL). But if this was possible, you'd think someone would've come up with nutraceutical breast implants, right? Killing two birds with one stone and all that.
Dr. Patty Khuly May 16th, 2009 05:44:28 PM
Like Linda, I've also done some reconsidering about our culture of spay/neuter asap. I find it mildly worrisome that we've become so offended by dogs with testicles that we refer to natural, normal body parts as "tumors". Testicles aren't bad. They're bodyparts. And yet so many people, vets included, seem to view them with such disdain. It's bizarre!
The push to spay/neuter younger and younger scares me. Hormones are important to the body especially through the developmental period. There's more and more research coming out that shows that early spay/neuter can increase the risk of a whole slew of health problems. While I'm all for spay/neuter when the dog is fully grown, I would never alter my own dogs young. I have a 7 month old pup right now and I've gotten all manner of worried looks from my coworkers at the vet clinic where I work since it came out that I'm not neutering him at the requisite six months. Since he's not allowed to run loose anyway, he's at no risk of impregnating anybody, so I don't know why it makes any difference.
Katie May 17th, 2009 01:09:53 PM
OK, so there are potentially advantages to waiting until a dog is mature before neutering, but what about cats? Is there any evidence one way or another -- I vaguely remember reading that a female cat's risk of cancer is reduced if she's not allowed to go through any heat cycles before she's spayed; is there any developmental advantage to waiting?
T.T. May 17th, 2009 09:09:18 PM
TT: In the case of females--no. We know of no advantages for waiting.
As to male cats, it seems that neutered males are more predisposed to urinary obstruction than intact ones. Nonetheless, I have seen more than one blocked tom in my career (and toms are very rare in my practice unless they're feral). Neutering later is not considered advisable as we don't understand the ideal timing for a neuter in order to prevent this problem, or indeed if there is one (full development of secondary sex traits is not protective, as cats neutered later seem to assume the same degree of risk as other neutered cats.
And who wants to live with an intact cat, anyway? The aroma!
Dr. Patty Khuly May 18th, 2009 02:19:51 PM
I once lived briefly with an intact male cat because when I found him and brought him to the vet (after he had been hit by a car), he was too sick to spend the additional time under anaesthesia. Heph (the kitty) left us an aromatic gift on the bed and we had to move out of the bedroom for six weeks. I barely saved the mattress, the pillows were a lost cause. No vasectomy would have solved this.
As for female cats, tubal ligation would not stop heat cycles. Who would want to live with that, either? With my first cat, who seemed to be in heat 10 out 14 days, my roommate, a light sleeper, threatened to throw me out unless I got her spayed. Anyone who's heard a cat in heat will understand. Does anyone know, is the heat cycle uncomfortable for them? They sure behave like it is.
Hephie was a terrific kitty. He lived with us for 9 years until developing wet FIP and dying 10 days after diagnosis.
silkenpaw May 19th, 2009 04:09:21 AM
I hope Dr K will do a column on the issues around altering cats. Most owned cats in the US are altered and there are good reasons as silkenpaw's post described. Unlike dogs, most of which can be easily trained not to mark in the house, most intact male cats will spray to mark their territory. And unlike female dogs, which usually cycle twice a year, female cats will cycle repeatedly until they get pregnant. According to cat breeders I have talked to this can be very hard on them and intact females that are not allowed to breed don't usually have a long life.
The reproductive physiology of cats and dogs is very different, which is one reason the usual practise of lumping them together in legislation intended to control populations is not a good idea.
Linda H May 19th, 2009 12:48:19 PM
"Evet: There's huge money out there for anyone who devises a safe and effective non-surgical method of pet sterilization. I think $50 million was the number being tossed around."
They use rubberband thingies on goats. After a few week they just fall off.
You could also try making the animal, cat or dog, tend some other animal's kittens or puppies for a week. It psychologically sterilized me for about six years.
Another idea is to feed them soy based foods. It will feminize the males, they say. Since they call them moobs on men, vets could offer to remove the doobs from your rotweiler, then we're back to surgery, but it's cosmetic.
Bob Jones July 10th, 2009 12:50:58 AM
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