Congratulations on taking a difficult step.  I don't think I could do it, but I respect those who can.

I don't think there's anything wrong with buying my meat and not killing it myself, though.  In our world of specialization, it's okay for me to do the things I do, and to pay other people to do things I don't.  I also don't beat myself up for, say, refusing to change my own fuel pump or failing to pave my own driveway.  There's things other people can do and I can pay them for.  There are things I can do myself, but I don't have to do *every* thing myself.

It's okay to be an omnivore and not be involved in the butchering of your own meat.  There's also nothing wrong with going ahead and raising your own meat, and butchering it yourself, if you can.

Galadriel May 23rd, 2009 12:36:13 PM

When I was little, my parents raised chickens.  They didn't do the slaughter themselves but a sweet Amish couple a few miles down the road did that part for us.  Maybe it helped that we didn't see the chickens die ourselves but we kids had no trouble at all eating the birds we'd spent all summer petting, feeding, and chasing around the yard.  Elvio might be hard to stomach - you have spent months nursing him back to health - but the next broiler size bird will be easier and by the time you get to the third or fourth, it'll probably just be another bird in the pot to you.  Happy poultry farming!

Meri May 23rd, 2009 12:41:24 PM

Did Elvio have a proper withdrawl period for the drugs adminstered pre mortem?

k May 23rd, 2009 12:58:40 PM

Wow.  What an awesome post!  This is the exact reason I've recently stopped eating meat.  I've been threatening to call myself a Ted Nugent vegetarian :D 

Maybe I'll go back to eating humanely raised meat in the future but for now I just couldn't reconcile the huge disconnect between me and my food.  I don't even necessarily think it's the act of doing the killing and butchering yourself (although the fact that you are able is awesome).  I just stopped and asked myself if I would be willing to kill a cow or a pig (assuming I had the skills) in exchange for a burger or sausage.  And I decided no.

Anne May 23rd, 2009 01:00:23 PM

Good for you, Dr. P!!! 

I'm so glad you wrote this post - the truth is, from the animal's perspective there is NO difference in being humanely and quickly slaughtered for food, and being "humanely euthanized" for reasons that are equally of benefit to humans such as space, not being able to afford care, etc. - no matter how much the animal rights crowd would have us believe otherwise.

The only real difference is that THIS way, Elvio's death has some meaning in the greater scheme of things.

Barb May 23rd, 2009 01:07:20 PM

From as far back as I can remember, my dad always raised chickens and/or rabbits and I come from a family of hunters.  I have always wanted to follow in my dad's footsteps and raise my own organic chickens, but the part about bringing them from yard to the pot has always stopped me from doing so.  Before my high school years my family and I went to Italy and spent the month of August (1974) with my father's family who raised their own rabbits and chickens and I got to watch first hand the technique used to dress them and it wasn't a pretty sight :(((((  Although I think I am kind of used to the idea because a lot of the bounty on our table over the years was home raised or from the hunting trips, I find it harder and harder as an adult to witness or do the deed.  I feel for you and the love you obviously had for your pet Elvio.   

Leesie Bruzzo May 23rd, 2009 01:55:45 PM

I'm neither proud of what I did nor especially self-satisfied at my ability to get the job done. Moreover, I will still eat meat others have killed. I do believe, however, that I will be thinking a lot more about what lands on my dinner plate from now on. And that's never a bad thing.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 23rd, 2009 02:05:53 PM

I'm sorry and have to congratulate you simultaneously.  My family was always pretty matter of fact about killing the chickens, geese, hogs at the farm.  We just grew up with that.  I do remember the first trip to the slaughterhouse to see a cow killed and I remember it distinctly.  It wasn't optional, it was mandated.  My great-grandmother felt we should all have an appreciation for the process.  I'm comfortable eating what has been slaughtered and prepared by others but I suspect my less wasteful ways are a result of this appreciation.  It disturbs me to see food wasted.  Kill what you'll eat and eat all that's killed.

Very brave of you to publish it.

PJBoosinger May 23rd, 2009 02:55:58 PM

Aw, that's so sad.  The tough question I have for you now is what's the difference between your situation here with Elvio, and with a pet owner who elects to put a dog or cat to sleep because the pet is too much bother to take care of? 

zandperl May 23rd, 2009 04:03:53 PM

Zandperl:

I know Dr. Patty can (and will!) speak for herself, but this is my take on the situation you described: there isn't much difference. Remember that Dr. Patty DID try to "rehome" Elvio. She's got a lot of contacts and did as much as any Rescue could do to try to find him a permanent placement. She couldn't find one, and she couldn't keep him, so she did the only responsible thing left. Ditto a family who is unable for whatever reason to keep any sort of pet - if no home can be found for the pet, it will ultimately be killed. Then the only question is whether the owners allow the pet to die painlessly while surrounded by people who love it, or take the coward's way out and leave it to be killed in a strange and frightening place by strangers.

Barb May 23rd, 2009 04:37:15 PM

Galadriel - I had never thought of your particular viewpoint before, that there's no more guilt to eating meat you haven't slaughtered than there is to driving on a road you didn't pave, wearing a sweater you didn't knit, etc.  I completely agree - thanks for a new way of looking at meat consumption! 

anna May 23rd, 2009 04:40:01 PM

I have to ask, but I am okay if you don't want to answer Dr K.....I was just wondering how you go about dispatching said rooster.  Not because I am trying to be unsensitive or gory but simply because I wonder what is the quickest and most humane method.  I don't have chickens or anything myself but I would just like to appreciate the process.  Maybe since I eat meat I feel like it is my way to be accountable for my 'habit'.  I shouldn't be able to say that I don't want to know how it is done anymore than I don't want to do it. 

<p>

By the Way - I am not sure I could do it....which maybe makes me bad for wanting to eat meat but not be the killer.  However, if faced with the issue I would like to think I could.

J.C. May 23rd, 2009 05:24:49 PM

Zandperl - although the reason might seem selfish, Dr. K. had the courage to admit there was a problem, search for answers to that problem, and have the guts to face up what that choice required, which was her active participation. 

As Barb said, it takes courage to stand by to help a pet go gently when it's the right thing to do. 

However, I do hope that Meri is wrong, and that by the third or fourth bird, it still means something to you.  If killing them becomes of so little consequence, that's really not a good thing.  I don't think anyone who kills their own food should feel bad about it, but a fully meant "Thank you" should go through your mind as the animal dies for your use.

I used to explain to kids and adults about how interesting, fascinating even, the process of a snake hunting, catching/killing, and eating its prey is to watch - once, maybe twice.  But I always said, with a crooked smile, that if you really got into it, I didn't necessarily want to live next door to you.  Death becoming either commonplace or eagerly watched is not a good thing.

KateH May 23rd, 2009 07:14:34 PM

Great post from so many angles & view points of the commenter's. Makes me think back to one of my Dad's college job story at a meat-packing plant in the Mid-West. And you know, he didn't pretty it up (slaughter part), but told it like it was.

Barb A./NH May 23rd, 2009 07:41:03 PM

Thanks for the thoughtful post and comments. For anyone wanting to see how this is done humanely, you can find several how-to videos on YouTube. Also clear written directions in some of the big books that are guides to rural living, such as "The Encyclopedia of Country Living," by Carla Emery.

Gina Spadafori May 23rd, 2009 07:58:29 PM

I hope your reward for this is a wonderful, no, outstanding meal.

I'll be following in your footsteps once the 25 chicks get here & grow enough.  I am nervous enough about hitting the gall bladder that I'm having a neighbor come help instruct me for the first go-round.  I'm sure you did a fantastic job butchering; were I in the chicken's place, I'd much prefer death by veterinarian than most any alternative.

Julie in OH May 23rd, 2009 10:15:38 PM

It's a hard path to take and You have my sympathy as well as my admiration for posting what choice you made. I raise mice for my cats and I am thankful for their sacrifice to feed my cats and because I don't have the stomach to watch the cats play them to death, I kill the mice quickly and as humanely as possible before feeding them to them. The snake can handle his meal live and in fact won't eat the mice dead anyhow.

I think that anyone with the nerve to do this has a new appreciation for any food that is not consumed in a timely manner.

LorriM May 23rd, 2009 10:35:59 PM

Dr. Khuly, please don't ever get a parrot, especially a cockatoo. I'm sure there were plenty of options for Elvio than the one you took, like farm sanctuaries. Poor Elvio suffered the ultimate betrayal. Sounds like a scene from Cold Mountain, emphasis on Cold. My neighbors hate me too but the law protects the birds in my care. Thank goodness they didn't end up with you!

Unsubscribing from this blog now. Again, please don't get any parrots. Elvio, namaste!!! Your only crime was being yourself. I'm sure when my rescued wild-caught Moluccan attacked me and bit me through the elbow, he was only acting like a normal Moluccan. When my other Moluccan, who spent 17 years in a closet, came here to live out her life, screams all day long out of happiness, you would show very low tolerance. Albert Schweitzer you ain't!

Moluccan May 24th, 2009 12:06:54 AM

Wow.  That's hard.

I've slaughtered my chicken-bullying guineas; not difficult.  They are not exactly easy to love.  Except as coq a vin.

I've hunted.  Didn't know anyone personally.

I've stunned rodents for snakes

There are the McNuggets and the Cartmans -- the meat birds growing up in my pasture.  They are very nice birds, but they're here for a reason, and no one forgets it.

But when a chicken gets a name here ... that may be stewpot insurance.

Our rooster Henery is recuperating from a broken leg.  He's out of his second splint, bearing some weight, starting to regain his mojo.  I'm doing physical therapy with the damned chicken.

But before his injury, he was getting -- well, cocky.  To the point that young children who visit are provided with a canine escort if they want to go explore.  I'm told that his incompetent sneaking-up-from-behind assaults are not the worrisome kind, but he's young yet, and I don't know if he will escalate eventually.

Am I going to have to eat him after nursing him?

I'd hate to end up where you did.

Sure wish Elvio had been a pullet.

H. Houlahan May 24th, 2009 12:31:10 AM

Moluccan,

If you have truly unsubscribed, then that is too bad. Shutting out the well considered experiences and thoughts of others with differing perspectives leads to much of the hardship we suffer in todays world.

Whilst I can understand your point of view, I do not agree. I hear the "ultimate betrayal" line used every single year with 4-H by animal activists who protest at the fair or write into the paper. That because the animals were well cared for, pampered and in many cases loved that their slaughter is an "ultimate betrayal" and emotionally damaging to the young people who reared them.

I would far rather support and purchase meat from an animal who enjoyed care, love and individual attention than one lived cramped and miserable. Well handled and socialized meat animals suffer far less stress during the handling at the time of slaughter than an animal who is unsocialized and stressed by the mere presence of humans. And would far rather have animals raised for food by someone who learned at an early age to appreciate and even love them as individuals than impersonal mass producers and minimum wage employees with little to no ability to connect to their charges. If a future farmer or rancher felt emotional distress and pain at the time they were separated from the first steer, pig, pullet or lamb they reared for auction, then perhaps they will carry that empathy into their future endeavors, both in learning how and when to maintain emotional distance with future food and also in view the animals as individuals who deserve care compassion and a fast and stress free exit from their lives.

JenniferJ May 24th, 2009 01:13:38 AM

it is hard for me to comprehend the farm lifestyle. animals are my friends and i want no part in their slaughter. i eat very little meat as it is and buy grocery store promised free range chicken and eggs when i do get it. i have been thinking about becoming vegetarian because i know i would be if i had to slaughter it myself. i really don't understand moluccan's opinion unless she is a vegan...even then, at least the rooster was treated respectfully. animals are used for our benefit every day and will likely always be; when they are treated with the compassion they deserve, i can accept this without a heavy heart. i helped with a veterinary cardiology research project in college and somehow spoiled my research dogs. the hounds would shriek with glee when we took them out of their kennels and it was all i could do to not yell at the crazy PETA people that camped around the vet school: "can you not see that these dogs have better lives than many pets in this country? are YOU going to volunteer to take this experimental drug that may help dogs and humans with CHF?".

sarahMT May 24th, 2009 05:58:36 AM

Moluccan, your comment about the bird only having been himself is very touching, but sometimes when animals are only being themselves, they aren't able to live successful lives with others of their own kind and/or people.  Sometimes it really is best if they 'go see god' or whatever term you like for letting them be free from themselves.

Humans often seem to think that only humans are special enough to be 'special' but any being that has to develop can have problems developing, whether that translates to a physical or mental problem.  I realize that Elvio wasn't 'special' that way, but I have had to help a friend understand that his cat was 'not right' and was never going to be right.  It was stressed every minute of its life (awake and asleep), could barely deal with noises above a whisper without turning into a Halloween cat, and if anyone came near it, it either peed/pooped/expressed anals or bit.  It was just being itself, but that self was a self that couldn't live without mental pain.  It was the best thing to release its soul (which was a hugely stressful endeavor).  Trying to find a 'sanctuary' for that cat (it was a 5 month old) to live out the rest of its life was not the right thing to do.  Trying to saddle someone else with a difficult problem isn't the right thing to do.

You would think I'm a horrible person, but I have a standing document that states that, if the event of my and my companion's death, two of my dogs are to be euthanised.  They are not trustworthy with other animals, and at 10 & 11 years old, I am not willing to let them go to a shelter, where they will be confused, frightened, and then killed.  The local senior dog rescue doesn't take owner surrenders and, in any case, since they don't get along well with most other creatures, they aren't any option.  I have been thankful that a friend (who cannot take them because of her pets) and my vet are understanding and willing to follow my wishes. 

KateH May 24th, 2009 09:07:04 AM

Moluccan: I fostered a cockatoo for about a year once. He ended up finding a great home with a veterinarian in Louisiana. Dinner was never a option, not just because I loved him but because that was never the reason behind taking him in. Sure, I suffered through the screeches and his occasional beak maneuvers and I took my time finding him the perfect forever home (still there 12 years later). Yes, my neighbors hated me, but I had legal protections.

For Elvio things were different. I took on Elvio with animal agriculture in mind. Though I considered him a pet I always knew the pot was a possibility. I just didn't expect to have to do it myself. In this case, I didn't have the luxury of time because the neighbor was threatening to turn me in for all my animals (their legality is questionable--ok if they're pets, not ok if they're "livestock"). 

In any case, the final straw was what one woman via the CSA explained: "You have no business keeping layers if you can't handle the slaughter of a rooster." 

I'm not so sure I agree but, for me, the point hit home.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2009 09:10:53 AM

CAUTION: Please don't read this comment if you're sensitive to slaughter techniques!

As to how it's done: I learned in vet school that the fastest, surest way is the "neck pull." Holding the bird securely under your non-dominant arm, you use your dominant hand to grasp the head. Pointing the head downwards, you pull fast and hard with a twisting motion (think of shaking a thermometer down, just with more strength). This is fast. Literally a second. Zero struggle. 

Gina: Have you had to do this yet? Email me. (We're due a phone call anyway.) Oh--and I'll be in SF in a couple of weeks if I'm able to make all my flight arrangements today.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2009 09:21:54 AM

I couldn't do it. Especially if the only reason is that I couldn't find a home for him. I mean, he trusted you as much as to sit beside you, and as the owner of 51 birds, that says a lot coming from a bird. He probably chased dogs to protect you, as part of his flock.

I often think about what I would do if this depression deepens to the magnitude of the 30's depression. Would a Victory garden do it for me, or would I raise some kind of animal? The answer was quinoa, a grain that is very high in protein. I suppose I'd rather find 1001 ways of preparing quinoa, than looking a bird in the eye while wielding the axe. Besides, I have done the Vegan thing before, and I would do it again gladly, if those were my options.

Carolyne May 24th, 2009 10:17:58 AM

This post is a punch-in-the-gut reminder of what an absolute meat-eating hypocrite I am. wow. An integral, thoughtful, humane resolution to a difficult situation. : (

Kris May 24th, 2009 10:27:37 AM

Sluaghtering an animal is never easy.

We grew up with livestock animals (in Los Angeles County)and the chickens were usually around until a raccoon or other predator managed to get into the yard or coop.

Our neighbors also supported animal keeping so despite our rooster crowing--they didn't mind.

As for slaughtering, I've done it to feed other live animals such as Birds of Prey, reptiles, and other mammalian carnivores--most of the animals we fed out were avian types, rabbits, etc.

The key is to be humane and not to stress the animal.

I remember one person who botched the job with a rabbit. The entire facility could hear the rabbit screaming and I went to confiscate it from her. In the end, I dispatched the animal quickly but it was a lesson for many about how important it is to learn how to do so quickly,

Today most people purchase their food in the stores and have no inkling where their milk, eggs, and meat originate.

Bizzare.

Most immigrants know how and are not so removed from the animal food connection. I grew up in a town full of immigrants and the animal food connection was not so foreign and people did not have the luxury to be judgemental about those who did or didn't slaughter for food.

Also when I lived and worked in England, one of the zoos had a slaughterhouse where large animals were cut up for the carnivores (big cats mostly) but fortunately most of the animals that came in were road kill.

However, I still think there might have been a benefit to me if I had learned how to process an animal.

My wake up to the animal food connection came at a young age (still in primary school) when I attended a familly BBQ and walked right up to a goat head.

It was then I realized what we were eating. At first I was startled but then understood that nothing had changed but my awareness.

My friends and some of my family rear their own meat or hunt for their meat. Unlike many "weekend hunters" or "hobbyiests" they really think about how they dispatch an animal so it is quick and humane as possible.

Some people want to ignore this topic but it is part of what happens in the animal world on a daily basis and if you eat meat or animal products I think knowing just how to do so is part of not being a hypocrite.

When people really get serious about this topic perhaps we will see some change in how the commercial livestock and egg industries treat their animals.

Like you, I am more and more selective of where and when I eat meat. I suspect that many issues we see these days will probably be traced back to the food sources and the hormones, additives, antibiotics and fertilizers that are currently being used.

As far as the technique you metioned, it was the one we used when we had to dispatch pigeons--very quick.

Find me blogging at Ark Animals

Ark Lady May 24th, 2009 10:57:10 AM

I guess I haven't yet answered zandperl's question directly:

So how is this different from ridding yourself of an animal for convenience reasons? 

Not that different. I guess I could rely on the food animal angle, "'cause that's what he's for" or the one where I point out that he was going to end up in a pot sooner or later, if any of my potential "homes" panned out. 

In the end, I guess I have to rely on the same logic behind KateH's comment: If I knew that any of my pets might suffer if I could not keep them (in the event of my death, for example) I would want them euthanized. Same goes for Elvio. If a viable rooster sanctuary is not available (and it's not, though I considered taking him to Key West until I realized those birds get killed nastily, law or no law), then this is what has to happen. 

I try not to judge the owners of foreclosure pets and others who have made the conscious, careful choice to have their pets euthanized or remanded to shelter care. I respect my clients who ask me to include legal documents in their records requiring their animals be euthanized in the event of their death.

I'm not talking about the ignorant idiots who could care less what happens to the cat they drop off in the Everglades or the dog owner who leaves him in the yard after the moving van pulls out. Anyone who has taken the time to truly consider how an individual animal is best served given the ugly human circumstances surrounding him gets a pass. But only if he follows through humanely. 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2009 11:50:24 AM

I couldn't agree with you more that factory farming is horrible, and it's laudable that you're meat-free three days a week. Your eating habits surely cause far less suffering than those of the vast majority of Americans. My hat is off to you for that.

On the issue of whether we should cut the throats of healthy animals who trust us, simply so we can eat them, I do wonder if this is the right way to go. It's of course a lot better than what happens to most farm animals, but since we have no nutritional need to eat animals, why commit the violence at all? In fact, most studies suggest that vegetarians are actually healthier.

Good cruelty-free recipes are available at www.humanesociety.org/recipes

Paul May 24th, 2009 12:10:07 PM

Paul, thank you for reminding us that HSUS is nothing but a bunch of Vegan Vigilantes.

Alan May 24th, 2009 12:31:51 PM

Elvio's end saddened me. I went back through Dr. K's posts since she found him and could not find where it said he might wind up in a pot. I may have overlooked or missed it though. I was under the impression she was getting the chickens for eggs/pets. Perhaps the wrong impression. I guess where I have thouble is not so much keeping food animals and slaughtering them humanely. Now I want to emphasize here, this is just me and my feelings: I can't fathom naming and providing affection for an animal that you're going to kill for food. If there are other chickens, food, sunlight and places to explore, not providing human affection would not be inappropriate or unfeeling. I have difficulty wrapping my head around forming a bond with an animal and then killing it for food (or killing a healthy animal in the case of a companion animal, I support euthanizing for health/suffering). I almost felt betrayed by the good doctor and certainly disappointed.

Oddly, if from the beginning the chickens were for meat and had no names or stories attached, I'd have had no problem. It's the bonding then killing that confounds me, but again, that is just me and my feelings/thoughts. I am in no way criticizing nor being judgemental. I'm a counsellor and I process things by sharing my feelings and thoughts, it does not mean I am saying right or wrong/good or bad.

Faith May 24th, 2009 01:45:14 PM

This is such a great discussion. I agree with much of what has been said here - certainly that farm animals are much better off living decent lives and being slaughtered humanely than what they endure on factory farms. I wonder though about the logic of feeling that eating meat is only defensible if one is willing to do the slaughtering themselves.

There are lots of jobs I don't do myself because other people are better trained or more willing. There are plenty of house chores I don't do myself - I call a plumber or an electrician - but that doesn't make it unethical to use the indoor plumbing or lights. I can happily wear a wool sweater even though I didn't personally raise the sheep myself, shear the wool, wash it, card it, spin it and knit it - but it's certainly better if the wool came from a humane farm.

Of course it is hypocrisy to eat meat from the grocer without understanding where that meat comes from - including the conditions of raising and slaughter - but that means that we should all think about our choices, not that we all have to undertake every stage of labor personally.

spotted dog farm May 24th, 2009 01:47:44 PM

Thanks for the info on how it is done Dr. K.  I will also say that I really applaud you for having the guts to blog about this topic.  You could have said that Elvio ran off or was offed by some gator(if you have that close to you) or some other creature but you were honest.  This day and age that can be a rareity (sp?).  I would like to think that your decision even saved him from something cruel that your neighbor's could have done.  I have no idea if they are the kind of people who would - not trying to make them something they are not but I think that there are situations out there were someone could take matters into their own hands....and do a worse job with little compassion or consideration.  So I am sorry for what you had to do but give you props for doing it. 

J.C. May 24th, 2009 02:58:48 PM

One of the great things about your blog (in addition to all of the great medical and treatment information) is your willingness to address all of the ethical issues about animals head-on, and not just the ones related to conventional companions.

I had to kill one of my roosters this past winter (he was very ill), and after that experience I must say that I much prefer doing regular IV euthanasias with prior sedation. Now that I know I can kill a chicken with my bare hands, I don't want to eat meat anymore. I'm not disgusted or horrified by killing animals or eating their meat, but there is something about it that makes me ask all kinds of uncomfortable questions.

Also - my 7-year-old always laughs on the odd occasion when I eat meat: he still hasn't quite grasped the distinction between "vegetarian" and "veterinarian". :-)  http://brebisnoire.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/vegetarian-vs-veterinarian/

brebis noire May 24th, 2009 03:15:51 PM

I'm usually quick to comment here when I see something of interest to me, but I needed to take a day to digest this post (no pun intended).  My first reaction was "how could she do this?"  But I've come to like, respect and even admire Dr. Khuly in the short time I've followed this blog, so this deserved more than just a knee-jerk reaction.

I think it shows a lot of courage for you to have posted this - you must have known it wasn't going to be a popular topic, but it sure spawned a great discussion.  It made me look at my own choices with regards to eating or not eating meat, and confront the fact that on some level, I am most definitely a hypocrite.  I've been semi-vegetarian for over 15 years, I eat dairy, fish and seafood, but hadn't eaten chicken or red meat until very recently.  My rationale had always been that I can't eat if there's a chance it'll come into our clinic for treatment (now granted, I worked with a small animal vet, so chances that we'd see a cow were slim to none, although we did treat a goat one time).  I do, however, wear leather shoes and love leather purses, so I've always felt somewhat hypocritical about saying I don't eat meat because I love animals.  More recently, I found myself craving meat - I don't know if it was a true protein-deficiency, or whether I was just missing the kind of cooking I grew up with in Germany (a very meat-heavy diet).  At any rate, I finally allowed myself to have some red meat occasionally  - but I'm still not really "okay" with it on a mental level.  I'm not sure yet whether I'll continue to eat meat occasionally, or whether I'll go back to just fish and seafood, but I do know that I'll make my choices more consciously. 

Ingrid King May 24th, 2009 03:21:39 PM

After reading some of these comments, I've discovered...that I'm just not that righteous, lol!  Sorry - the animal didn't suffer.  In the grand scheme of things, with starving children, inaccessible health care, AIDS, genocide...I just don't get that upset about a dead rooster, especially one that was killed so mercifully and whose body can now provide sustenance for another.  Circle of life and all that *hums tune from the Lion King*

BTW, I don't mean to trivialize your feelings, Dr. K - I'm sure it was difficult to do, and I don't mean to sound flippant.

anna May 24th, 2009 03:34:49 PM

Paul,

I have some news for you: If you're alive, others are dying for you to stay that way. And I'm not even talking about plants. I'm talking about nesting birds and all kinds of small mammals, killed by the harvesters.

You are responsible for the deaths of FEWER animals and birds, perhaps, but none ... no way. Cruelty-free? Puh-lease. When I buy meat, it's the meat of animals who are raised in ways that let them be who they are, behave that way naturally, and who die before they know what's happening. There is no less suffering or cruelty in your choices than in mine.

Like Dr. K, I am eating less and less meat all the time, so I can better afford to control the sources of the meat I do buy for me, the cats and the dogs. I choose regional, humane and sustainable meat, and yes, it costs more to buy because non-factory farmed meat costs more to produce.

I haven't slaughtered a chicken myself yet, but it won't be this year in any case. The laying hens are it for now, but what the future brings I cannot say.

Gina Spadafori May 24th, 2009 04:08:10 PM

Dr. K, I'm guessing you're going to have some issues with your brood of critters, given the neighborhood you're in.  I'd been wondering about that.

Neck wringing.  The method Dr. K describes is how I was taught to kill rabbits; also my preference for chickens although I was originally taught to use an axe to the neck over a stump (but I like my fingers and my eyesight has always been poor).  Thanks for the confirmation that's still the way to go.

The "ultimate betrayal" of an animal that's been cared for by humans isn't killing it, especially if that is done with care and humanity.  The Ultimate Betrayal is releasing or dumping the animal in some delusion that it will "find" a home before it's traumatized and sick and injured or live out a wonderful "free" life and die naturally and suddenly in its sleep.

I guess when Dr. K mentioned ordering "baby chicks" was when I was clear that the "pot" was an option.  For me, it would have been inherent in the taking in of foul to my yard.  Beyond that, I'm with Anna.

Spent my first night at the house.  Heard the cows low at 6:30 in the evening and the dogs jumped up and ran for me for dinner.  I was surprised they remembered that after more than 4 years in the city.  5 AM and heard roosters from 2 different directions, so did the dogs!  And it was "get up, get up, it's almost breakfast time".  I think I'm going to like this new neighborhood. :)

PJBoosinger May 24th, 2009 04:24:59 PM

I'm all for improving the quality of our food but don't forget that free range, non-factory also means taking up more space, more land.  It's a trade off.  It may or may not be "better" for the planet or the animals.  Those touting hybrids don't seem to know that they are actually more harmful than helpful to the environment, at least so far and especially if one adds a nearly new vehicle to the scrap heap (intentionally, to take it out of use) when one purchases the hybrid.

Truth is we've just plain over populated the planet with humans and we're trying everything else possible to avoid dealing with that underlying issue.

PJBoosinger May 24th, 2009 04:31:22 PM

PJB: The interesting thing about the "more land" argument is that it really doesn't take more land to raise under non-feedlot conditions. It takes a whole lot more land to raise the corn that factory-farmed animals consume in feedlots than it does to raise a herd on scrub-land (land that, incidentally, cannot be easily be put to good use anyway). Sure, that means a whole lot less meat if we stick to this approach (there's only so much land for which cattle are "ideally suited" to). But that's what most of us here advocate anyway, right?

Then there's the issue of the greenhouse gas emissions from our ruminants. As a goat owner, I know that two goats produce as much in greenhouse gases as the same number of gas-powered lawnmowers. Sure, I don't have to mow now that they're my version of "biological deforestation," but it doesn't give me a pass to add to the problem--not unless I can actually produce food from them.

The same kind of considerations need to be addressed as we move forward with our "new world order" when it comes to our energy consumption. Cows, in particular, are incredibly energy intensive. I see the Obama garden making some headway, but when will the administration begin to address the HUGE issue the garden is only tangentially addressing in terms of our cultural norms? I wonder.

Thanks for raising the issue. 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2009 05:27:06 PM

I had a lovely hunk of steak for dinner. I have no idea where it came from. I am new to the area and have limited shopping choices.

I thanked the animal for it's sacrifice which I do every time and enjoyed it cooked on the grill. I am tired of many animal lovers and rescuers judging those who choose to eat meat. like somehow because I like cow products,( and chicken and pig and duck and sea creatures) that makes me less of an animal lover.

please...and how good for the enviroment do you really think all the vinyl and plastic shoes and purses etc that the anti animal products people use? As well as all their farting from all that vegetable consumtion that we don't even digest most of?

Here's the bottom line. The chicken was starving and sick and abandoned/escaped. Dr. Khuly got it healthy, gave it a place to live and a chance. It didn't work out so she explored her options and eventually chose the one that she could.

good for her. How many cats do I hve that were abandoned to the streets, ?...many. I have a couple that were left in an apartment to starve to death. She acted responsibly. I wish more people did the same.

If I didn't admire her before, I do for having the courage and forthwith to be honest and frank about the situation.

LorriM May 24th, 2009 05:51:42 PM

An animal's intrinsic value should only be measured by animal's value of his life to himself. I would think a vet would surely investigate the legality of any animal in their care like any other pet owner. The value that anyone else puts on that life is irrelevant.

4-H is not a valid comparison. Elvio had a name. 4-H animals do not. Elvio had an audience. 4-H animals do not. Elvio had many options that could have been available to him but were not explored. It could have been a wonderful opportunity to raise awareness of the many wonderful farm sanctuaries out there who house many chickens and other farm animals for their entire natural lives. Instead, this was an ignominious end which I'm sure alienated many readers. Of course the legality of the matter is he was the property of a human and she could do anything she wanted with him. That Dr. K is a vet is really irrelevant here too as she did not act within her oath as a companion animal vet (she is not an agricultural vet). And so for that matter, she should start a separate blog for those of her animals which are destined for "agricultural" purposes. The post did not belong on here. I can go 3 blocks and meet plenty of vets like that. I would hope an urban vet would have different principles.

I could have told you that you'd have to go to bed earlier if you rescue a rooster.

This makes me think of all the dogs in Indonesia who end up on the dinner plate as the 2nd most popular meal in that country. And the vets there who rescue them, restore them to health for one purpose: to eat them. Think about it Dr. K. You are no different. Next time, give it a little more thought first. As for animals are "problems," well there is a place for them too for those caring enough to seek them out. Energy will be spent, yes, but if you aren't willing to do that, then don't rescue them in the first place. Call animal control. Our house is full of animals who Dr. K and most of her readers would either eat or "euthanize". So I have no further interest in reading up on any of their opinions. BTW, for those who lump me into the ARA category, you are wrong. I'm not an ARA. I am a compassionate human who realizes that all animals have a will-to-be no matter how inconvenient it is for those with the power to end their lives. KatieH it doesn't sound like you were either qualified or truly concerned with the welfare of that special cat. You just wanted to play God. There may have been many solutions for him. He may have had a medical condition that went untreated. Are you qualified to make that decision? Life is fragile and precious. If you can't appreciate it, at least try to find someone who may have the skills to help the animal. Same goes for humans. I can just imagine that all of you would also like to euthanize a bunch of convicts too. They're just humans who are "inconvenient." I have rescued one of those myself, too, and now that person is the one who helps me care for the "inconvenient" animals here, regardless of temperament. I'm sure all of you would just say 'kill 'em all!' Too much trouble!

Moluccan May 24th, 2009 06:25:41 PM

By the way, there is no point in responding directly to my comments thinking I will come back and read them. I will not.

Moluccan May 24th, 2009 06:29:51 PM

PJB wrote "The "ultimate betrayal" of an animal that's been cared for by humans isn't killing it, especially if that is done with care and humanity. The Ultimate Betrayal is releasing or dumping the animal in some delusion that it will "find" a home before it's traumatized and sick and injured"

The first time (and every time since) I heard about animal 'liberators' releasing mink from a fur farm (and mice, other animals from labs), I was appalled that they thought what they were doing was actually helping the animals.  While I completely agree that wearing fur is unecessary (the animals are not eaten - except when fed to the younger minks), claiming that one cares about the animals and then releasing them when they couldn't support themselves and will die 'free' is the 'ultimate betrayal.'

Elvio was much more fortunate than any battery-raised chicken.  While the 'good life' might not have lasted very long for him, at least he got to experience it, and his death was quick and humane.  Have any of the people who've said Dr. K. was wrong ever actually seen a killing line (for any food animal) at a slaughterhouse?  It's horrendous, and how anyone can work on one is the scary question for me.

KateH May 24th, 2009 06:33:36 PM

<<Elvio had a name. 4-H animals do not.>> Sorry, but I have known many 4H animals that had names.....

<<And so for that matter, she should start a separate blog for those of her animals which are destined for "agricultural" purposes.>>

Why?...it's her blog....she can do what she wants with it.

<<So I have no further interest in reading up on any of their opinions>> No one forces anyone to read this blog, you are lucky enough to be allowed to share YOUR opinions on it.

see you around "Moluccan"....there is always someone with the holier than thou attitude to take your place. Usually someone like you with out the courage to put a real name behind their opinions as well.

LorriM May 24th, 2009 06:34:31 PM

As Moluccan won't read this, oh well, but many 4-H animals have names.

Bad info, ignorance or moral outrage are no excuse for stating incorrect assumptions as fact. You can hold all the opinions you wish, but cannot create facts to suit your arguments.

Some kids choose not to name to keep an emotional distance, others feel better giving a name to the animal and feel they deserve a name even if they will be food. 

The kids now blog about their animals and raise awareness of their endeavors and many are treated like pets. Most of the young people I know would say it was very difficult to raise then give up the first, last or all of their animals but also say they learned tremendously from it and feel they will be better stewards for it.

JenniferJ May 24th, 2009 06:48:25 PM

Yeah, Moluccan, that's what we thought when you said you were unsubscribing, but you just had to come back here, all 'holier-than-thou' about how we're all bad people.  You think you know everything, but you don't.  I love your comment "Call animal control."  As if every animal control facility was a paradise for animals.  Do you have any idea how asinine that comment of yours is?  Yes, that cat had a medical condition - if she was a human she would have been a paranoid schizophrenic, also suffering from tactile defensiveness and the inability to control its eating and voiding.  Yeah, it had a chance to live out a 'natural life' - gee, I wish I'd known you were around and how to get in touch with you to give you the cat.  You're so marvelous, I'm sure you could have solved its problems and rehabilitated it wonderfully. 

You may bite me.

KateH May 24th, 2009 06:53:17 PM

<<You may bite me.>>

KateH...no, you don't want her to bite you. I am still not sure that kind ignorance isn't contageous.....

LorriM May 24th, 2009 07:03:10 PM

I'll bet you that one day we'll read in the paper about "Moluccan's" home being raided after they find 300 starving birds and feral cats all living in their own filth. 

Come on, we're all thinking it... she/he is spouting the exact same claptrap those misguided hoarders all say.

Barb May 24th, 2009 07:04:39 PM

<<Come on, we're all thinking it... she/he is spouting the exact same claptrap those misguided hoarders all say.>>

too true...and she/he "rescues" humans too?..scary thought...

LorriM May 24th, 2009 07:08:33 PM

Thank you for that, Lorri - I was so mad I had to delete many things I'd written - but now I'm laughing.  And that's all she deserved.

KateH May 24th, 2009 07:30:26 PM

Methinks "Moluccan" is insufficiently vegan.  Her attacks are cagey that way.

And has some boundary issues that confuse a human's perception of an animal's personhood with that animal's own self-perception vs. that of an animal that has not been made a "pet."

Else, how the curious argument that an animal with a name has a right to life, while an animal treated impersonally does not?

Honest, thoughtful people admit their discomfort or ambivalence with the killing that sustains them.  Including the killing of insects, birds, and mammals that gets the seitan to the vegan's plate.  We can have an adult discussion about that discomfort, and the interface between ethics and emotion, how difficult it is to parse out where one ends and the other begins, and whether or not the distinction matters to each of us individually.

I'm currently wrestling with the issue of whether to get a mobile slaughter unit here, and kill my meat birds myself, or take them to be slaughtered and processed by someone else.  (There are over 100 of them.  DIY with the tools we have at hand is not a viable option.)

Is part of my promise to them of a good life and a humane death that they won't be stressed by transport?  Or is it more important that it be done professionally, by someone who won't screw it up?  Is that person compassionate?  Does compassion matter as long as it's done quickly and professionally and without gratuitous abuse?

Is that an ethical quandary, or an emotional one?

Can I parse out my own distress from my perception of the birds' distress?  How much of the latter is a projection?

H. Houlahan May 24th, 2009 08:14:28 PM

I've appreciated every-one's comments, whether I agreed or not, and found serious thought process to back them all up.

Any of us that are not vegan, would be hypocritical to criticize the death of Elvio, after all, he is of a species commonly consumed. He was humanely slaughtered & lived a good life- albeit short. Realistically, the only other alternative would have been to ship him to a farm sanctuary, but given the recent unhealthy history, that is another real concern. Not to mention, a concern for consumption, too.

For me, the biggest issue was the "pet vs. farm animal intended for slaughter", and my eyebrows raised reading the sentence of attacking Sophie Sue & lack of sleep. It made me a bit uncomfortable, feeling that any hint of anger or pressure would/could have possibly contributed.

Please don't misunderstand, I would be the first to wield a lethal weapon to any animal (coyote, fisher cat, raccoon, hawk) threatening attack to my own dogs! But Elvio had undergone somewhat of a domestication from previous description.

I can't be judgmental on this, perhaps, I would have found myself doing the very same, given the circumstances. And very possibly, Elvio, as likened to some-one's problem companion needed to be humanely killed by the responsible individual rather than dumped onto someone/place else to deal with that decision

sarahMT: I can not agree that deliberate companion animal use in laboratories compares anywhere close to the lives that they were bred and meant for, and yes, I am horrified over puppy mills, and individually mistreated/neglected ones too.

 Today's blog update: veterinary legislation proposals nationwide

Barbara A. Albright/NH May 24th, 2009 08:32:33 PM

Wow. I hope Moluccan is GONE! The ARistas make me crazy. Gotta say: I love most all animals, reptiles, (No snakes around me, please, and not a big fan of fish), insects, birds & you name it! (I admit I like fur bearing animals best.) Yes, I've always wanted a monkey...

WHERE is REASON!? SYMBIOSIS is NECESSARY FOR SURVIVAL OF THE PLANET!!! Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. Nothing is black or white.

I BREED dogs (on rare occassion). I breed for conformation, temperment, and "utility". I breed because I LOVE my breed, my dogs!

Yes, I am an omnivore. Yes, I have witnessed the slaughter of my food. Yes, I participated in the raising of that food. Yes, that "food" had a name, and that food, a cow, was raised from a calf, grass, and home grown hay fed without antibiotics or hormones to be FOOD! Was I sad? Yes. Did I eat the meat? Yes. Did I give thanks? Yes.

Am I glad that the puppies I have bred will not be raised for food? Yes.

Do I buy locally, grass fed food when I can afford it? Yes.

Who the hell are you to pass judgement on me?

BTW, would I have an "elevated", more consumer worthy lifestyle if I didn't have animals/pets? You bet your sweet ass. I spend more than many people make in a year on "vet" care. BUT they are MY animals. They are my PROPERTY. They are NOT my children, and it's none of YOUR business how I choose to care for them.

katie May 24th, 2009 08:57:12 PM

Please play nicely.  Carry on!!!

cat lover May 24th, 2009 09:01:22 PM

I has always been my feeling that if you eat meat, you can also take responsibililty in butchering it.  I know now days it is not practicle to do that but I have done it in the past when we rasied our own chickens, ducks, rabbits, and cattle.

brighty May 24th, 2009 10:22:53 PM

Barbara: You are right to call me out on my 'human discomforts' with respect to Elvio. I included them because it was an honest fact. And because it made me feel guiltier about slaughtering him. But it's part of the reality. Honestly, I loved the crowing. But I would wake up thinking I was bothering my neighbors, that I'd be 'turned in,' that all of my pets would suffer. In short, it stressed me out to no end.

I woke up this morning (and yesterday) at 4 AM expecting his crows. Sad. 

As to my dogs: I knew he was just protecting me. Just being an adolescent rooster. But I also understood that more development was on the way. It's not just an inconvenience. It was a problem without a purpose. An accident waiting to happen. I challenge all of you to clean the blood off a loved one's head and feel comfortable with the situation. How could I not, as a rational person, consider that aspect? 

I loved him. I still love him. But it's the bigger picture I'm concerned with--and that includes his original purpose as an agriculture species I always intended to "use" in one form or another. At least this way I dealt with all the issues in one fell swoop. Not prettily. But honestly.

Dr. Patty Khuly May 24th, 2009 11:17:44 PM

I think what this discussion illuminates, among other things, is the inherent difficulty of believing in, let alone trying to achieve, Total Purity. Pursuit of that concept results in false dichotomies, and this issue is clearly best seen as a continuum, like most complex issues. It's just not either/or, much as we (well, the Moluccans among us, anyway) might like it to be. The idea that it's possible to live "cruelty-free," if that means some level of perfection where no other creatures of any kind are ever harmed in the least in order for us to survive, is absurd. Even if the Jains, for example, strain their drinking water through cloths to prevent inadvertently swallowing any small creatures, well--some creatures are small enough to penetrate those cloths. And in any case, they cannot prevent their own bodies from killing viral or bacterial invaders, which they may swallow in the most innocuous foods, or breathe in with the very air. Not to mention the creatures killed by various occurrences (intentional or not) in agriculture.

Very interesting and enjoyable discussion; thanks Dr. K for starting it and to all who are participating. Even Moluccan--she/he has so well illustrated the absurdities that quickly swamp any position that is carried out too far toward the extreme.

(And at the risk of sounding snarky, I personally would bet the rent that she/he will be sneaking back to read the responses to those last couple of rather hissy posts.)

Judy May 24th, 2009 11:31:35 PM

Moluccan, I think you're oversimplifying things. A lot.

With regards to the issue Kate raised about the 'special' cat, my once-in-a-lifetime cat used to be feral. He was slated for TNR, when the pre-neuter exam revealed problems and it became apparent that Thomas would not be suitable for release. We were faced with the decision to socialize or euthanize. Having grown attached during the nine months it took to get this wily guy into a trap, we opted for the former... but I'll be honest- I didn't think it was going to work. This was one of the most aggressive ferals I've ever encountered. Fortunately for the both of us, he wound up taming beautifully... but if he hadn't? It would have killed me, but I'd have euthanized him in a heartbeat.

Should I happen to trap another cat like Thomas during Thomas' lifetime, he will not be tamed (I have a full house). He will not be released to succumb to complications of diabetes in the wild. He will be euthanized. On some level, I'll probably never forgive myself, but what are the options? I can't take in every gravely ill unsocialized cat that graces my doorstep. I don't have the funds, the time, or the space... and taking in more cats than I can provide for benefits none of them.

It would be unrealistic to expect a rescue organization to take on a dangerously aggressive FIV+ feral with diabetes and a heart condition. Loved as they may be, not all animals are adoptable. If I hadn't been able to keep him, I could have handed him over to Animal Control, sure- but it would have been nothing more than a cowardly cop-out... they'd have simply whisked him off to their vet and done the very same thing I couldn't bring myself to do. The only difference in outcome? Maybe I could sleep better at night deluding myself into thinking he'd found a home.

Absolutism is unrealistic. Sometimes you have to be practical. That doesn't mean you don't care. It doesn't mean you don't wish you'd had other options. And it certainly doesn't mean you don't have reverence for the value of the animal's life.

Just my two cents.

Ramen Connoisseur May 25th, 2009 01:07:42 AM

Regarding Elvio, admittedly, I was saddened to read of his passing... but I understand, and I think it was incredibly brave of you to post this given the fact that it would likely be poorly received by a portion of your readership.

I do eat meat, and I'll be honest... after having gotten over the shock, I am left primarily with the feeling that ultimately, Elvio was a fortunate rooster. His life may have been short, but it was full. He had the opportunity to roam free, to socialize, to chase dogs.

To a human, the idea of slaughtering livestock reared in a pet-like manner may seem distasteful, but from the animal's perspective, (assuming slaughter is to be the end result), what could be better? Personally, I don't know that I'd want to eat my OWN rooster (I'm cowardly like that), but if I knew someone raising chickens in their backyard a la Elvio, I'd buy from them over the factory-farmed stuff in the supermarket anyday.

Ramen Connoisseur May 25th, 2009 01:39:21 AM

On aggression.  An aggressive rooster is no less dangerous than an aggressive dog, perhaps more so.  When one ends up in possession of an aggressive animal (and even if that aggression is quite natural to the species, even perhaps beneficial), if that aggression is only towards those outside the "family" unit, one may be able to at least contain and keep the animal.  However, when the aggression is towards others within the "family", that's a really troubling sign and there really are very few options.  Personally, I think this form of aggression is a certain indicator that the animal is dangerous and not to be trusted.  If it doesn't know that attacking other members of the "family" will have negative consequences, that's one step away from attacking the head of the "family" and that's the person who feeds and cares for it.  And that's an indication of an animal that isn't and can't be domesticated.  If it has been partially domesticated, then the tough choices are the only ones left.

Dr. K: "a whole lot less meat...  that's what most of us here advocate anyway, right?"  Not really sure I'm included in that although I'll agree that cattle are a poor choice to raise as meat, especially the way we raise them.

Dr. K: "when will the administration begin to address the HUGE issue the garden is only tangentially addressing in terms of our cultural norms"  I'm no longer holding my breath.  Of recent, it looks like Mr. Pres has been drinking the Washington Cool-Aid.

Naming animals.  All my cousins named their 4-H animals.  At the farm, they told us not to name the critters but we always ended up giving the nicknames anyway.  It isn't really feasible not to give them some designation and, if you kill the wrong one, there would have been hell to pay with Great Grandma so, at a minimum, the "stars" in her brood got names while under her protection and because, when their time did come (and it always did), we all wanted to be very sure we weren't in error in our understanding of the instructions.  I don't know that I'd want to be so detached from them even if they are livestock.  In a way, I'd feel more uncomfortable killing "Hog #42" than "Snuffles", the hog.  And, if you're a farmer, do you really want to know you're killing chicken #106,732?

PJBoosinger May 25th, 2009 05:08:54 AM

And what a GREAT discussion this has been over this long holiday weekend!!!!!

PJBoosinger May 25th, 2009 05:10:15 AM

I am raising a pen of meat birds this year.  This is not hceaper than buying meat from the store, but I like to know that the meat I ingest ahs been kept, cared for, and slaughtered humanely.  From the time my chicks came in, they have received the best of care.  They get all the vegetable scraps, flax seed daily (as scratch), eat a balanced ration without super-high protein levels associated with growth too swift for the legs to support, and they freerange (safely) during the day. 

The time and effort I put into their care means they have formeda bond with me.  As soon as I walk within 100 feet of where they are, they all come running.  I can't walk without shuffling my feet for fear of punting a bird, and when I am trying to do any work they are simply impossible.  I've become rather fond of them, but when their time comes I will still prepare them for the plate.  It will be difficult, but I can rest assured that I have given them a far better life than the meat I can buy from the grocery store, and I am certain that (because of my work, attachment, and committment) very little will go to waste. 

Dr. K, I believe you made the best decision for your ward, and took responsibility.  You should condone, rather than condemn, her actions.  After all, she is looking for a way to circumvent factory farming and provide herself and her family with humanely produced meat.  I wish that we were all so aware of the connection between what is on our plate and the animals that lived to put it there.

Jen May 25th, 2009 07:38:48 AM

I agree that aggressive roosters are a serious issue. Not all roosters are aggressive. I've had wonderful roosters. A good rooster is a great companion - entertaining, cocky, funny, and gallant towards the ladies. A mean rooster? There is no way to reason with him. The testosterone takes over, and there is no stopping the attacks, in my experience. I don't consider it cruel to put such roosters in the pot. All roosters on my farm live a terrific life, and if we end that life, it is done at home, and quickly so that they do not have time to be afraid or stressed. Over time I hope to breed for consistently non-agressive roosters, by not letting the agressive ones procreate.

There are a few things that might have kept this particular bird from my dinner table. Namely, you don’t know where it came from, or what it ate or what it might have been exposed to (in terms of pollution/chemical exposures) while wandering the streets of Miami. The bird came to you sick, and was then treated with a series of drugs, not all of them labeled for use on boilers/meat chickens.

Chickens peck about wherever they are, eating vegetation - including snatches of grass (anyone use lawn chemicals in Miami?) insects, whatever meat they can find (particularly gross given one of your blogs about finding dead roosters that had been used in cock fights in the dumpster near your practice) and drink from standing water without being too choosy about cleanliness (where exactly was that chicken drinking from whilst wandering around the neighborhood of your office? I shudder to think….)

You have used the following drugs on this particular coq-au-vin, if I read your past entries on this chicken correctly:Tylan, Baytril, Diflucan, Piperacillin and Cipro. Yum? Er…. No.

Tylan and Batril are labeled for use on chickens to be used for consumption. I think the rest - diflucan, piperacillin and cipro would be off-label use, which is o.k. legally speaking, as far as I can tell, if the treatment if overseen my a veterinarian and a withdrawal time is established. However, the combo of unknown provinance and list of drugs given might have earned that chicken a little grave on my property with a little marker on it, rather than a place on my table!

FarmFashion May 25th, 2009 08:01:32 AM

FF: You forgot ivermectin. ;-) I did check with my peeps over at VIN and the reaction was mixed on eating this bird. If the pharmacokinetics of each individual drug is looked at separately, the two month period is more than a sufficient washout. But it can depend on their interaction, too, as you've rightly pointed out. Overall, the consensus was that he's eminently edible--but it also depends on the level of concern for antibiotic exposure: "If you need to feel 100% sure you're not being exposed to trace amounts of antibiotics then this bird is best fed to your dogs." 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 25th, 2009 09:13:43 AM

I was wondering about the meat withdrawals as well. However, I don't think you've exposed yourself to any more trace amounts than you would with industrial pork, beef, chicken or milk, in spite of the strict standard withdrawal periods. I've always wondered about you Americans and if bST actually makes it into the milk. My biochemistry prof at vet college scoffed at the idea, but all I could think was "he doth protest too much..."

jen- I have the same experience with my hens, and roosters. I've never kept an aggressive rooster (I had one that attacked my toddler a few years ago, and he didn't last long). When they're allowed free range, they really do bond with you, and you do become attached. And then you start to think about the ones that aren't so lucky...

brebis noire May 25th, 2009 10:19:01 AM

This has been one successful blog, causing pause for thoughts from all. I've given it a couple of days to work through to my own conclusions!

Yes, Dr. Khuly a courageous & honest story with an ending that one needs to address for themselves because what makes this situation so different for any of us omnivores?

I learned a bit more about 4-H, rooster attributes, antibiotic & drugs in meats. And why should a society not dwell on the path taken for the food on our table and the nameless, faceless animal taken for granted.

My parents did not grow up that way; my Dad's family had chickens and my Mom's had rabbits. Both were grateful for them!

Great blog, great comments.

Barb A./NH May 25th, 2009 10:34:15 AM

I have a dog who is a big barker and the neighbors complained about her and there are times she makes it difficult to sleep. Rather than killing her, we found a different solution. We moved to a place where she could bark to her heart's content.

As someone who rescues abandoned chickens and gives them a lifetime home, chickens are wonderful, intelligent and fascinating beings. I could no more kill one for being inconvenient than I could kill my barking dog.

Mark from Reno May 25th, 2009 01:39:45 PM

I am an animal lover, animal owner, and omnivore. I do not understand why people are getting so uppity over a chicken being killed just because it has a name. That named chicken is just the same as the chicken you eat, just raised with a bit more care and compassion.

I grew up in the city, saving everything from injured bunnies to birds since I was little. My mother is from the country, and much of our family are farmers. They raise hogs and cows to be butchered. I have had no problem shooting a rabbit with the intent to eat it, even though I'd saved bunnies in the past. It's a part of life. We were not made to be vegans or even vegetarians. Humans have been hunting since the beginning, we were made for it.

Dr. Khuly tried to find another place for the rooster, but could not find someone to take him. She chose the most humane and useful option. Sometimes choices like that have to be made, whether we like it or not.

Jessi Pre-Vet May 25th, 2009 08:03:32 PM

Stopped eating red meat 20 years ago we don't need it. Up until I quit the habit I used to love prime rib, what have you.

Don't miss it at all.

Evet May 25th, 2009 08:26:55 PM

Dr. Khuly,

I understand your plight! Growing up my Grandfather raised chickens, both for laying and for eating.  It wasn't until I was about 6 years old that I actually saw him slaughter one of the chickens and made the connection to the dinner plate.  From then on, I distanced myself from the chickens. I will say this though, fresh home-grown chicken does taste a lot better than that store bought. I buy chicken that's free-range, hormone free, but I haven't really found that option so much in beef.  Of course I'm in Texas, so I'm sure that makes a difference...sigh.

Kara May 26th, 2009 11:19:29 AM

I was going to sit this one out, but I've been goaded into commenting by Kate's remark:

"BUT they are MY animals. They are my PROPERTY. They are NOT my children, and it's none of YOUR business how I choose to care for them."

That is not entirely true, there are some laws, albeit pitiful and rarely enforced, that limit what you can do to your pets.

I'd like to also point out that if it was anyone other than a vet (i.e., Dr. Khuly) reporting this action, and if it was a cat or dog rather than a chicken, we'd be telling assertive cautionay tales about do-it-yourself euthanasias gone wrong, not congratulating her on her cahones. 

In fact, Dr. Khuly has blogged against DIY euths.   Don't you laypeople go and trythe neck break on your ailing dogs. 

 http://www.dolittler.com/2008/01/23/pet.vet.dog.cat.euthanasia.house%20call.cost.veterinary.html

Stefani May 26th, 2009 01:04:21 PM

Moluccan and ilk, read my comments or not.  My comments are not realy to argue with you, no use in that, more to argue your points.  <br>

  Dead is dead.   I have never met a suicidial animal and I have seen many gravely wounded animals in the talons of my hawks.  They all fight, to the bitter end.  Rabbits kick untill shock imobilises them, squirells bight and squirm as long as they are able and mice kick in the hawks crop. No animal would EVER chose death on it's own, it is one of the reasons I love them.  That being said everything that lives MUST die, no exceptions, ever.  I can understand the arguments in favor of eating less meat, or even no meat because of feed conversion issues and the associated environmental issues but I will not accept a moral prohibition, I have never read and areguement that allows a chimp or tiger or bear or any other omnivore to eat meat and not me.  <br> 

The animal dosn't know it has a name, only that you can communicate with it, less than it's peeps (no pun intended) though.  Giving an animal a name dosn't in any way change the animal, only the way we look at that animal.  It shouldn't.  Named or unnamed they all want to live and they will all die. <br>

A more interesting question is why do we eat chickens and not parrots, cows and not horses. quail but not thrushes  Why as a culture do we say some animals are ok to eat and some are somehow not.  They are all flesh and we can digest them all.  <br>

Sorry for getting to the party late, I hope someone is still here:)

Jacob L'Etoile May 26th, 2009 02:55:52 PM

I'm new to this blog, and the comment ship is far out to sea, but I was blown away by the honesty and thoughtfulness of this post. This issue is obviously easy to polarize through oversimplification, but Dr. K avoided those pitfalls with grace. I also have to say that the discussion, for the most part, avoided becoming an ideology-off, which is a really nice change. I'm sure most of us have noticed that blog comment sections lend themselves to that all too well. Anyway, definitely a fan now, keep up the good work.

E Mortenson May 26th, 2009 05:14:00 PM

What a ride!  I have had chickens and roosters in the city for years.  If a neighbor complains about a rooster, we barbeque him together.  One trick we found to keeping them alive a bit longer is to contain them in the dark until after 7am. If he does crow, it is muffled, and when he is released, he is happy enough to make lots of noise over the traffic and lawn mowers etc. 

One batch of 20 "straight run" chicks had 19 roosters.

Our coop is inside a garage so we have a double layer of sound insulation that helps this work.  I told the kids that if I feed it, it needs to work or I'll eat it... and I'm getting hungry so their chores better be done. They have been fine with the chickens and rabbits.

Bob Jones May 26th, 2009 05:21:02 PM

Stefani, please be careful of who you attribute words to.  When I read your comment, for a moment, I gasped, because I always sign my comments as KateH (2 caps), and you said Kate said.....     I realize that since I comment here more often than 'katie' who did say those words, perhaps you got us mixed up, and it wasn't a huge thing, but still, I didn't say that. 

And, no, I don't recommend people trying to break a cat or dog's neck, either.  However, when I stopped to try and rescue a small snake sunning itself in the middle of the road, and realized that someone had run over the last 6" of it, I did the kinder thing and twisted its neck to kill it quickly instead of leaving it to suffer.  Sometimes there are reasons for DIY in some species.

KateH May 26th, 2009 05:51:48 PM

Love this most recent flutter of comments.

I shudder at the thought of 19 roosters out of 20 chicks. I don't know if I have that much slaughter in me--not all at once. 

On the DIY euthanasias: I was just contacted by a USAToday reporter asking about this. My primary comment was that most DIY euthanasias suffer from a high risk of incompleteness and inhumanity. Why would anyone risk that after a lifetime with a pet? That's what veterinarians are here for--or shelters. But Stefani's comment made me think twice about that. Why for some species?

In the case of chickens, I would argue that they are especially domesticated in ways that facilitate humane slaughter by most anyone who watches it a couple of times. Not so for so many other species where sophisticated techniques and equipment are necessary to achieve a humane slaughter. 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 27th, 2009 10:14:16 AM

I agree Dr. Khuly-

For anyone who has ever broken or dislocated the neck of a chicken or rabbit it is easy to understand that there is a world of difference between that and a dog or a cat.

I don't see why it is so hard for people to understand that if you are a meat eater concerned about animal welfare, it makes sense to raise your own meat so you can control the quality of life the animal has before slaughter.  Certainly, risks of attachment are high.  I have a broiler chicken that follows me everywhere, but when it comes time it will also be in the pot.  To avoid attachment I give generic names like 'extra crispy' 'deep fried' and 'au vin' if one demonstrates behavior that makes it markedly different from the rest.  This serves as a reminder, to be, of the ultimate purpose and destiny.  My treatment of them prior to the day of slaughter is no different than if they were named 'Bob', 'Fluffy', or whatnot. 

If you eat meat, I would highly recommend becoming involved in raising a batch of meat birds.  It's a fairly gentle introduction to self-raised meat and relatively inexpensive compared to the investment required for a sheep or beef cow.  It really makes you appreciate each morsel of meat on your plate when you can connect the animal to the end product.

Jen

jen May 27th, 2009 11:56:56 AM

"there are some laws, albeit pitiful and rarely enforced, that limit what you can do to your pets"

"A more interesting question is why do we eat chickens and not parrots, cows and not horses. quail but not thrushes Why as a culture do we say some animals are ok to eat and some are somehow not. They are all flesh and we can digest them all."

pet v. livestock.  Seems to be purely a matter of culture.  I don't get why someone thinks they have a right to tell someone else that their livestock is a "pet".

PJBoosinger May 28th, 2009 06:00:37 PM

To all the vegans - give it a rest. You are free to have your opionions, just realize that they aren't shared by a large % of Americans and never will be. That said, I think humane treatment of animals (even those destined to wind up dalloped w/ horseradish and plated with potato mash and veggie garnish) is something the vast majority of Americans do support. However, the tactics of the mainstream animal welfare group (namely peta) do a major disservice to this stated goal (animal welfare). It causes rational people to shut off when vegans open their pieholes and spout their "meat is murder" nonsense.

Chip May 29th, 2009 03:30:20 PM

Thank you for sharing this Dr. Khuly. I'll soon be making my first venture into raising my own meat (rabbits and chickens) and there's certainly some trepidation there.

Ultimately, I think it'd rather be a little too close to my meat than a little too distant. In the grocery store it's far too easy to forget that the shiny plastic-wrapped packages were once a living animal who lived and died, perhaps in comfort or perhaps suffering horribly.

I I'd rather increase my consciousness of where my meat came from than forget, even if it does make me slightly uncomfortable. And if I raise and kill it myself then I can rest easier knowing that it was raised and killed humanely and didn't suffer. Just thinking about factory farming makes me feel ill, but better to think about it and make a conscious decision to choose better, than to put it out of my mind and perpetuate the practise.

I've briefly considered going vegitarian at various times, but in the end, I've realized that I enjoy meat, that death is a part of life and besides, I've chosen to have cats, which means there's absolutely no getting away from meat one way or another. It's going to be a fact of life for me as long as I raise carnivores.

My first close experience with meat animals was as a child, visiting relatives in China. A live chicken was brought home for dinner and I spent the day playing with it and walking around with it on a string, and then later that night it ended up on the dinner table. I didn't really understand that this was livestock and that it was going to be killed until it actually happened and it was quite upsetting.I didn't see the killing and I didn't eat the chicken (I was sent to the neighbour's house for dinner) but it really made an impression on me.

My second close experience was just this last year. I went out to a local farm to get two rabbits from a local farmer, who picked them out and killed them on the spot for me. I took them home and dressed them while they were still warm. It wasn't a pleasant experience, watching the killing but I was mentally prepared for it - these rabbits were livestock, not companion animals in my mind. It certainly did make me appreciate the meat I do eat much, much more.

I've done the classes and am qualified to get a firearms possession and hunting license (though I haven't bothered yet) and I frequently eat hunted meat, and I do plan on raising meat animals, but I've never actually slaughtered an animal before. I fully expect the first time to be difficult and emotional (and perhaps it should be?) Beyond worrying that I'm going to get the technique right and kill quickly and humanely, there's just a big cultural disconnect compared to what I'm accustomed to and comfortable with. I never want to become complacent about killing, but I do think it's something that I can and should become capable (and competent) at doing, being that I have a meat-eating house hold.

---

As an aside, how do you learn to do the neck pull properly when you've never done it before? I mean, knowing the technique is one thing... actually doing it for the first time is quite another when there's a live animal involved. Is there a good way to practise before hand that will give you the feel for how to do it without endangering a living animal? The idea of causing injury and suffering horrifies me and makes me extremely nervous, and I'm not sure I'd have the stomach to ever try again if I screwed it up the first time. I fully intend to get an in-person demonstration and guidance from someone with experience but still...

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com May 30th, 2009 11:11:35 PM

Anlina, find someone who raises animals for food that does the neck pull regularly and ask them to teach you.  The ones I've known that raised rabbits and chickens for market have been very efficient and effective at the technique.

PJBoosinger May 31st, 2009 10:07:57 AM

Anlina, <br>  My advice is once you get the bird in your hands, one holding it's body, the other holding it's head, close you eyes and make pulling motion bigger than it needs to be.  I have killed many pigeons, quail, starlings and house sparrows this way. never chickens though.  It bothers me every time I do it and if I don't go intentionaly overboard I tend to underdo it.  Not a prety sight.  So my advice is to close your eyes and over do it.

Jacob L'Etoile June 9th, 2009 02:21:00 PM