PETA   People Eating Tasty Animals

Carolyn June 24th, 2009 10:43:51 AM

Okay, I guess I get the fish thing, although, since it is already dead, I'm not sure I feel as strongly as I would were it still alive.

But the fly killing? Oh please, people, do we not have better things to worry about? Seriously, who among us has not killed a fly? The associated glee? I admit, I am guilty of having felt the same emotion. I also feel it when I kill mosquitos. Does this make me a bad person, with a shameful blood lust? So be it.

AJ June 24th, 2009 10:46:42 AM

I guess when you're run by someone who is batshit insane you really don't care what kind of press you get.

I think PETA has lost credibility with anyone who has taken 5 seconds to actually listen to their messages or learn about their organization - the only people who seem to take them seriously any more are the ones who are completely clueless about what PETA is beyond "they care about animals" (and I'd argue that no, they don't care about animals, they care about their own selfish agenda, which is more about vilifying everyone else, being in the public eye and putting on a circus act.)

Quite frankly, while PETA may occasionally have a valid point, they do far more harm than good to their cause, through their own utterly ridiculous actions and statements. And they drag down everyone else who cares about animal welfare/rights because in the eyes of the uninformed public, we're all lumped together. Their extremist behaviour is press-worthy (in a trainwreck kind of way) so they're the most visible animal organization and it's embarrassing to be perceived to be connected to them, however tenuously.

I reallky wish PETA and Ingrid Newkirk would just shrivel up and disappear (since they're never, ever going to learn when to shut up.) They're a blight on those who truly care about animal welfare, with their horrendous kill rate; insane, extremist stances; embarrassing, ridiculous campaigns and their unfortunate ability to suck up massive amounts of fund raising dollars that might otherwise go to an organization that actually does some good.

I really wish they'd leave important issues for other groups to address. Other groups who might address them in a way that won't instantly alienate the public or draw attention away from the core issue through stupid antics which then become the focus.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com June 24th, 2009 10:59:07 AM

Ok, never thought about the fish throwing.   But Obama's flykill DID bother me.  And I feel weird that it did, but . . . guess that makes me kooky myself.

Don't get me wrong, I have killed many a fly in my day.  When I had a serious home invasion (someone must've gotten in and laid lots of eggs . .. . ) I killed quite a few.  I could not talk them into leaving on their own, I tried.  If they are landing on my food over and over and over, I might wave them away and in so doing mortally injure one.

But not a lone fly, simply for annoying me.  Doesn't warrant a death sentence to me.  The cats, however, are not so lenient.

Heck, I fished a spider and ant out of my shower this morning to rescue them lest they drown when I turned on the water.  I kill, just only when I think it's really necessary.

My dad used to say to me:  "If you don't bother them, they won't bother you," of insects.  I kill them when I think they pose a danger of some kind or when there is no other way to get them out of my way, or when I have an invasion going on.

Actually, even if they are invading, ants totallly get a pass in my house.  I love them.  And they always leave when the food they came for is gone.

Stefani June 24th, 2009 11:44:24 AM

How can killing a fly bother us when we apply pesticides to uor animals to kill fleas and ticks?  Aren't flies and mosquitoes on the same level as fleas and ticks?  Does anyone here catch and release ticks or fleas?

Please- I consider myself humane, but this is overkill, no pun intended.....

agadoresmama June 24th, 2009 11:51:56 AM

PETA isn't objecting to the fish toss because tossing dead fish is disrespectful to creatures who died to feed us. They're objecting to the fish toss because they view it as an opportunity to push their preferred designation of fish as "sea kittens" and cause us to turn in revulsion from the eating of fish.

Remember that 96% kill rate, and the "adoption" numbers that are consistent with the theory that every single animal dies except the ones PETA staff members cherry-pick for themselves. Your animal falls into their hands, your animal is dead unless a PETA staff member who happens to be there, happens to want it.

They do not care diddly-squat about the fish. They are using the fish to advance their anti-animal agenda.

If the tossing of fish originated as an efficient way to move the fish for sale, I do rather doubt that there's much "wastage" that way. No fish are suffering because of it, and a display of skill may or may not be fun and interesting to watch, but it's not illegal, immoral, of fattening.

Ticking of PETA is a bonus.

As for the fly--are you serious? "Gratuitous" killing? Did you watch the whole clip, or just the snipped bit where Obama actually kills the fly?

The fly had been buzzing him; he'd brushed it away repeatedly and it kept returning. John Harwood (the interviewer) had commented on the fact that it was an amazingly persistent fly. And finally Obama waited until it landed on his sleeve again, and killed it. And then, yes, having succeeded in the not-easy feat of moving quickly and precisely enough to kill the fly rather than simply slapping himself, he, Harwood, and the camera crew took a moment to enjoy that fact. Quelle horreure!

Sorry, can't get distressed about that, and no, PETA does not have a point. On the fish, if it were someone other than PETA making the fuss, I'd be prepared to listen to the argument; playing with food is at a minimum disrespectful of the food. But flies? No. Freaking. Way. Outside, they have a right to live their lives, provided any individual fly is not making a major pest of itself. Inside, they are pests, plain and simple.

Lis June 24th, 2009 12:00:45 PM

"PETA isn't objecting to the fish toss because tossing dead fish is disrespectful to creatures who died to feed us. They're objecting to the fish toss because they view it as an opportunity to push their preferred designation of fish as "sea kittens" and cause us to turn in revulsion from the eating of fish."

I never said they had a good reason. ;-) Sorry I intimated as such. 

Dr. Patty Khuly June 24th, 2009 12:11:49 PM

Carolyn - Nice. :)

Great post, as always, Dr K.

Jen June 24th, 2009 12:36:07 PM

@Anlina Sheng:  Couldn't have said it better.

Julie in OH June 24th, 2009 01:02:44 PM

Strange that they should mention the Buddha, because I realized the other day that the whole controversy was reminding me of this. Yes, even Living Buddhas occasionally kill mosquitoes.

Maren June 24th, 2009 01:07:06 PM

Football = leather = part of animal corpse = entertainment?

Personally, I'd rather watch someone pitch a fish, but that's just me.

As for the glee of fly-killing, have you never experienced one of those persistent flies that simply WILL NOT TAKE A HINT and repeatedly dive-bombs your face, lands on exposed skin, buzzes in ears?  Believe me, I am gleeful when I finally take one of those buggers out.

I saw Obama give the fly fair warning at least once in the very short clip that keeps replaying.  I think that fly wouldn't take no for an answer.

H. Houlahan June 24th, 2009 01:20:23 PM

The first time I heard about the Detroit hockey fans throwing octupi/squid on the ice at games, I was appalled. While I wouldn't touch it as a food source, it is food, that once was a living creature, and to waste it in such an egregious way, is disgusting and ridiculous. I do realize that tons of food the world over goes to waste for many stupid reasons, but to glory in it is just not a good thing. (Yeah, perhaps too much of the "Children are starving in China" was drummed into my head, but still, my grandmother wasn't wrong to teach me not to waste food.)

And, I would never be interested in watching a 'display of skill' involving tossing dead fish around. You know that not every fish gets caught, and when it falls (smashes/slides) on the floor, it gets damaged, probably enough so that it isn't sold to the admiring public. I sure as hell hope it gets taken home by the workers and is fully utilized for feeding their families. If it just gets tossed in the trash as no longer good enough to sell, that's disgusting waste.

About killing the fly - I totally agree with agadoresmama and Lis. Flies spread disease, and many species will bite, and therefore it's not different from fleas or ticks in that respect.  I kill mosquitos every time they land close enough (if I can), and don't feel bad at all. If spiders are in my house I ignore them if their not conveniently close, or if they are, I catch them and take them outside.  The occasional centipede in the garage gets a total pass, but if it comes up the drain into the bathroom, it's going to get squashed - not gleefully, but speedily, nontheless.  Ants get a pass outside (unless their huge and numerous and near my food), but indoors, they die.  I'm the complete opposite of Stefani on this - ants creep me out and I kill them (with creepy revulsion mixed with a tiny, tiny bit of glee, I must admit - not as much as with fleas and ticks, which I do kill gleefully mixed with revulsion) when they are in my house.   I'm glad that President Obama tried to be nice, but... yep, I'm impressed that he got the dang thing.  Okay, maybe spending time zooming in was unneccessary, but he had nothing to hide.  I hate, hate, hate, the "It's just a fly" thinking, since everything has a purpose (disease carrier/population moderation).  But that doesn't mean you have to like or agree with the purpose, which is why we find out how to stop some things from fulfilling that purpose. 

KateH June 24th, 2009 01:45:31 PM

opposing fly killing is so extreme and silly.

i agree wtih you dr. patty, advising peta to choose their battles wisely.

lesliek June 24th, 2009 03:32:47 PM

A Born and Raised Seattle Native here...The fish throwing has gone on here for hundreds of years in different forms here when people would fish off scaffolds and throw the fish back to others etc....,

the Pike Place Fish have been throwing for at least 40 years - the photo you have here was done for publicity that is not what it looks like on a normal day.   The fish throwing attracts alot of people, education about the fish is incorporated into the presentations, they speak about conservation and sooo much more.  It is also a glimpse into the lives of traditional fishermen, they sing both thanks and a wee bit of story telling about how big the fish are but there is hard work and love and thanks for this fish everyday alot of Seattle families entire livelyhoods depend on fish.  We know how important they are.  If you sat around for any length of time and watched and listened you would hear the fishermen telling people the names of the fish, how important local fisheries are, how to buy from local fisheries, how to help preserve habitats and of course how great they are ;)  

I am attending the AVMA Seattle conference and will of course visit Pike Place while there, I would recommend the Salmon - local caught of course - If any of you decide to purchase from the mongers, if you do thanks for supporting local, substainable fisheries and local fishermen and women...which Washington leads the way in ! 

hmmm..too much local pride ?  anyways the point is... it is not JUST people throwing dead fish around for sport or fun - really do you think we would disrespect something that  feeds us, nourishes us, substains us ?   PETA is wrong, very wrong.  I do hope they show up maybe I can hit one with a fish!!!

LC June 24th, 2009 03:34:50 PM

re KateH - wondering if one lands on the floor if its thrown away - NO WAY it gets washed off and packed up or fried up!  there is no way a 25 pound salmon worth over $100 would be thrown away! or even a smaller fish  - everyone of those fish are a families way of life even down to the smallest clam or the large monk fish !  even the heads are sold for fish stew (not a fan here but many love it) ....

LC June 24th, 2009 03:39:58 PM

I for one am REALLY relieved that the AVMA didn't (for once) cave in to their small-but-growing animal rights faction.  I grew up in an age when most vets were also hunters - which meant not only that they were conservationists but that they had a real - life understanding of animal behavior and animal husbandry.  And a real-life understanding of how Nature works.

I haven't had the pleasure of watching the fish toss, but it at least started as an efficient way to move the fish - not disrespectful at all.  I would hope that in the current show, the fish used are still eaten and not thrown away.  I of course would object to wasting perfectly good food especially since our oceans are in trouble.  But to worry about "disrespecting" a dead fish?  Not so much.

And as for the fly swat - I'm just glad that PETA's reputation with the general public has taken another well-deserved hit. 

To quote Gina at Pet Connection: "Why is anyone still listening to PETA??"

Barb June 24th, 2009 03:40:10 PM

Dr. K, best thing you can do with that organization is to ignore them and never write about them again. (I'm violating my own guidance, I know, but the thread's already started here and the damage is already done.)

They are like the world's biggest forum troll - that's their game, and it works so well, they keep doing it. And why not? The media keeps sucking it up and talking about them, and even if it's just to bash them, they still get the press.

Oh, trust me, I've been tempted to go after them. You ever read what they say about service dogs?

"Optimally, humans should be relied upon for support of the disabled rather than working dogs and other animals - it is too common for animals to be exploited and abused."

If you didn't think they were nuts before, that statement would likely convince you. But, again, same pattern - say something outrageous, get some attention, maybe some misguided celebrity endorsement (there's that again), and "Mo' Money, Mo' Money, Mo' Money". And I'm not taking the hook.

You sure don't need the site traffic, and all you're doing is doing them a big favor by writing about them, even if it's to hammer them.

Ignore them, the money will dry up, and eventually they will go away.

Al Brittain June 24th, 2009 03:51:10 PM

Anyone wants to come swat flies here, welcome, welcome, welcome.

I use fly traps all spring and summer and fly predators too. They, the flies, bite. They draw blood on dogs, cats people, horses. I got in a rescue dog last year who almost lost his ear leathers to severe fly-strike. They land on anything. They lay eggs in anything given a moments peace. I hate picking maggots off of a rescue, only had to twice, but yech.

When I kill ticks, I am quite happy. When I grab an escaping flea off a dog or puppy and crush it, well, yep I feel pretty elated. I'm sure I am not the only one here who has watched dead or dying fleas cascade of a dog who was debilitated by infestation and felt tremendous satisfaction that one) I was relieving the dogs misery at their little blood-sucking way and two) that the little blighters are D-E-A-D. Our species does revel in the demonstration of our skills and dexterity, it's kept us alive. Pleasure at removing a possibly diseased, aggravating parasite or insect is a bit different than callous indifference to the plight of living things or wanton bloodlust.

If PETA does not want to kill fleas, ticks, flies etc... then they best not keep or shelter animals or livestock. Oh, yeah, they don't, not long enough at least to have to deal with the menagerie of parasites and insects that accompany them at least

JenniferJ June 24th, 2009 07:11:54 PM

On the fish, I'm more concerned about the possible contamination from this "show"; beyond that, well, they're dead already and I think PETA's taking it too far for the wrong reasons.

On the fly swatting Pres, give me a break.  If insects, rodents, etc., don't want to be swatted or crushed, they shouldn't come inside my home.  I do my best to leave them be outside and even to chase them out but, if they want to persist, well, then...

But then I'm in Texas where we still have periodic difficulties consistently respecting the human dead http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/New-details-on-body-found-behind-funeral-home/6QF_zIVqNkiZp2DLYEgmiQ.cspx?rss=68.  Guess it's improved a bit since the funeral director who "returned" a body by leaving it on someone's doorstep a few years back...

PJBoosinger June 24th, 2009 07:45:21 PM

I'm not sure who's post I enjoyed the most! Stef & KateH, pretty in depth bug reports, I like it.

I wonder if the have a lobster toss in Maine ? I have not heard of one, but supposedly price per pound took a serious nose dive not too long ago. That may have caused some angry tossing without the pegged claws by the lobstermen!

Barb A./NH June 24th, 2009 10:17:09 PM

The fact that the Prez swatting the fly got so much attention is just shocking to me; Seriously??  I think we have more important things going on that we could focus on....I am not one to go out looking for a fly to kill but if you come into the house and/or you keep on bothering me your going down.  As far as I am concerned all is fair in love and war., yada yada yada.  And believe me I would take satisfaction at least if I was able to take pull a karate kid type move and kill a fly like that.  

J.C. June 24th, 2009 10:26:15 PM

I dunno, considering that PETA kills thousands of pets/year under its contract with Virginia, and considering that 2 of its employees were caught disposing of some of the corpses in a private dumpster, I really don't want to hear PETA whining about how dead fish.. or flies.. are treated.

EmilyS June 24th, 2009 11:17:46 PM

You know, PETA lost me with the tasteless nude vegetarian ads, but they locked that door when they put out their "sea-kitten" ad campaign.  SEA KITTENS. Just thinking of it gives me an eye-twitch.

Bekbek June 24th, 2009 11:39:07 PM

Please...give me a break.  Once again PETA is missing the forest for their own agenda.  Before anyone criticizes the fish throwing, at least be educated enough to know the whole story.  Pikes Place Market is known for teaching methods to businesses to help customer service, and employee morale.  At our veterinary hospital, as well as many others I know of, we use their four principles:  1.  Play; 2. Make their day; 3. Choose your attitude and 4. Be There.  These principles have helped us provide better customer service, improve patient care, and improve employee morale.  How can that be a bad thing?  Have you fish-throwing haters forgotten we are going to cut their head off and cook them?  Throwing the fish was never and will never be meant as disrespect.  Quite the opposite, it will help us to provide better service by following the principles.

Come on people...lighten up!!!

B.C. June 25th, 2009 08:58:50 AM

What saddens and scares me about this debate is that it totaly missed the point.  The fish is dead.  It can't in any way persieve or care about how it is handeled.  The fish stocks are alive and while they cannot persieve our efforts to manage them they certinaly benifit from our restraint in consuming them.   The fact that we can debate fish throwing at all indicates, to me anyway, a total disconnect from what is really important, managing our harvest such that we will have minimal perminant  impact on the fishery.  And to who ever says don't waste food, it dosn't matter what happens after the fish is harvested.  It matters that the fish was harvested.  I don't care if people dress them up as clowns and parade them around town, as long as there are enough fish left to sustain the ecosystem.   If you want people to waste less, a restricted supply goes a long way to adding value.  If the fish is to valuable to waste, it will be fully utilized.   The fact that anyone even turns their head at this indicates they are missing the point altogether.  The only meaningfull, non self congragulating respect you can show a reasource is in how it is harvested, not what happens after the harvest.

Jacob L'Etoile June 25th, 2009 10:50:58 AM

Sorry, I can't get behind you on this one. PETA annoys me too deeply to ever have even a sliver of respect for them. I think fish-tossing (and meat wearing on America's Next Top Model) is disrespectful because it's protein--a resource Americans thoughtlessly enjoy while people in Haiti literally eat mud for sustenance. PETA is hypocritcal. They do not get to stand up for flies while lobbying for the desctruction of pit bulls, a breed which I own and madly love. They do not get to have a 96% kill rate and bitch at us for throwing fish. As I stated, I have my own reasons for disliking the fish flinging, but PETA needs to keep it's fat mouth shut. But I've already said too much. I'm too busy actually caring about animal welfare to continue to draw attention to myself.

Chelsea June 25th, 2009 02:06:10 PM

The difference between fish tossing and meat wearing is that the fish will be eaten. The tossing evolved out of a need to expediciously move the fish. A large salmon is worth A LOT. It's not tossed and discarded. As for wearing meat...well I hope and assume it's not being consumed, but yes the waste is rather distasteful.

I'm with Jacob. Discarded by-catch, drag netting, over fishing are all horrifying. Tossing salmon that will go on to be lunch or dinner? Not bothering me a jot

JenniferJ June 25th, 2009 02:41:35 PM

Thanks, Dr. Khuly, for sharing your thoughts about this. I live in the Seattle area and value and respect our wild salmon and the fishermen and women that provide salmon as a delicious and nourishing food source. The fish tossing is to me, however, an unrelated bit of goofy entertainment. It is not cruel, but PETA likes to push the Overton window and this was certainly an opportunity for that. The AVMA, IMO, could have just quietly ignored PETA on this one, though I'm sure vegetarian veterinarians were not thrilled with the prospect of watching the fish toss. I'm flabbergasted that Dr. DeHaven has made a lengthy statement relating the fish toss to more serious differences that the AVMA has with PETA. I don't think that people know what to make of it all, now. http://preview.tinyurl.com/mb2cbc

DB June 25th, 2009 03:41:21 PM

OH MY this is hysterical. I hadn't heard anything about it until now. Wearing meat as fashion on TV? Really, aren't we all wearing "meat"?

A bit OT: For anyone interested in reading about what happens after you're dead, I recommend The Secret Lives of Human Corpses by Mary Roach. good stuff (if you're philosophical and morbid like me).  

rebelrottie June 25th, 2009 08:53:11 PM

sorry, that should be Stiff: The Curious Life of Human Cadavers.

rebelrottie June 25th, 2009 08:56:13 PM

I second reading Stiif: the Curious Life of Human Cadavers - it is really interesting!

KateH June 25th, 2009 09:10:40 PM

I never heard of that book.

Does anyone else think that there is a successful method to their madness?

Barb A./NH June 25th, 2009 09:41:39 PM

This book looks like a great read so I ordered it.  Thanks for the recommend.  Nice to know we "morbids" aren't so few and far between. :)  http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-9780393324822-16

Barb, I'm convinced the PETA folk are all masochists; that they shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly and intentionally, giving themselves a perverse form of pleasure from failure.

PJBoosinger June 26th, 2009 01:02:55 AM

When PETA stops killing animals themsevles. Then I might MIGHT listen to anything they have to say. starting with the word HYPOCRITE.

I agree with caroline People Eating Tasting Animals.

LorriM June 26th, 2009 02:15:48 AM

I'll throw in another thumbs up for Mary Roach's book. It's an excellent read.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com June 26th, 2009 10:07:28 AM

I do think its rather tasteless, at a minimum, of veterinarians to attend a teambuilding/management seminar that involves tossing dead fish as the main attraction. Tossing fish like footballs is not showing respect for the sacrifice the animals have made to feed us. Respectful post-mortems and butchering for food are one thing. Flinging around animals or animal parts feels very wrong to me, like desecration.

Things like the AVMA fish toss make me seriously consider joining the HSVMA. I'm not really a very animal rights-y person, but the AVMA seems to becoming divorced from mainstream views on animals welfare (not talkiing PETA here, but Jane Q Public). The fish-flinging is just a fringe thing symptomatic of larger problems.

Regarding the flies, well, can't say I have a problem with killing pests (including flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks, mites, etc).

cayugaduck July 6th, 2009 01:57:01 AM

It's funny sometimes, the rationalizations we go through. Years ago I used to hunt. We were mostly broke and a freind dragged me along so I didn't have to do much investing in gear to go. 

The old saying doesn't quite make sense today... It should be rewritten: If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach him to fish, you put him in debt the rest of his life.

But I didn't have to buy gear, so it made economic sense to go.  Some of the hunters had strange traditions to give the deer a 'fighting chance'.   It wasn't very sporting to find a deer, shoot it and take it home to eat.Although the many traditions could nearly fill a book, it is necessary only to say that I was somewhat influenced by their thinking.

So applying their philosophy, I decided that I wouldn't swat flies, but would only catch them with my tongue. I worked on my dexterity and and speed by playing the harmonica without hands by biting on it and playing melodies with only the use of my tongue.

When I finally did manage to catch one with one quick flick of the tongue, I found myself in the same place as PETA. You start out with a noble goal and purpose, but when you finally suceed, you end up with a fly in your mouth.

Bob Jones July 6th, 2009 12:16:19 PM