Vet News Would you buy a spay on eBay?

An eBay savvy, Maryland veterinarian is offering a spay or neuter to anyone willing to bid on it. Really.

Dr. Marcella Bonner used to auction purses on eBay to supplement her income. These days she’s got a new practice and a nut to cover. So she’s taking her well-honed eBay techniques to places veterinary services once feared to go.

Well beyond a sophisticated website, an attention-getting blog or crafty tweets, she’s drumming up business––offering the basic spay and neuter procedures some extra press, while she’s at it.

What’s the going rate, you ask?

$250 to spay any size female dog and $100 to neuter her male conspecific.
$100 to spay any size female cat and, for the boys, $40 to neuter.

Any way you slice it, it’s a bargain. Especially since she’s offering a complete service with anesthetic monitoring and equipment during the spay and surgery and pain medication before, during and after. Though there are extra charges for those who are older or pregnant.

In a statement to DVM Newsmagazine she had the following to say:

"We, as a profession, are not helping with the pet overpopulation...The price for a spay or neuter is very high. Shelters are overpopulated because people can't afford to pay $600 to $800 for a spay. It's unbelievable what people are charging.

...Some of the animals that have been coming in as a result of the auction are anywhere from 3 to 6 years old. The pet owners are saying that they just couldn't afford to do it before."

OK but...I still think $600 to $800 is a fair price. For some hospitals. For some patients.

I’m excited to hear she’s bringing attention to the pet overpopulation problem and building her practice while she’s at it. It’s the kind of socially conscious entrepreneurial spirit we should all applaud.

But...does it devalue our services to offer them on eBay? Some veterinarians think so. I mean, would you bid on breast implants? Liposuction? Gall bladder surgery?

Maybe not. You’d question the ethics, the quality and the professionalism of those that did. How is that different for veterinarians and spay neuter? Is it a commodity like toilet paper or purses...to be auctioned off? Or does it get a pass due to its socially conscious message? Or maybe you think it's a tacky marketing ploy to get pets inside her freshly-painted doors?

So what about you: What do you think? Would YOU buy a spay on eBay?

June 29th, 2009

Add Comment77 Comments

Sad to say but I can't find her auction anymore. Maybe someone can help this eBay unsavvy veterinarian find her eBay store.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 29th, 2009 08:35:00 AM

I don't know. I tend to think that anything that gets animals to be spayed is a good thing and even an unusual promotion like this might be helpful. There are too many unwanted puppies and kittens in the world and we have to stop the deluge. The thought of animals being put down just because there is no home for them is repugnant to me. So, yes, if bidding results in more animals being prevented from unwanted pregnancies I think I'm for it.

Barbie June 29th, 2009 08:35:48 AM

you have to be joking , ALL the prices mentioned are WAY to expensive. I pay $50.00 for spays and $45 for neuters on dogs 20 pounds and less. This is becasue my Vet is also the Vet for the animal shelter and he has to do the deed if and when the animals are put down. $600-800 is gouging in my book, $250 to spay is more than most people are willing to pay or can pay.

Mary Stickney June 29th, 2009 08:58:29 AM

$600-800 would be outrageous for this area. Heck, even $250 (dog) and $100 (cat) would be toward the high end.

As for buying a spay on eBay, I don't use eBay at all, so no, I personally wouldn't. I don't see anything wrong with going that route, though, as long as you do your research on the vet in question. I don't see that the use of eBay itself changes much.

Shelly June 29th, 2009 09:06:16 AM

Mary,

It's been 10 years and several vets since I've had a dog spayed, so I'm not sure what it would cost at my current vet. Not $250, though, surely. That's about what my dog's tricky lumpectomy cost, including lab tests on the lump, pre-anesthetic blood panel, fluids, pre-/post-op pain meds, and antibiotics. I can't imagine a routine spay costing more than her lumpectomy, though I could be wrong. Hopefully, it'll be a few years yet before I have to find out.

I do know that it was $75 each to have my 6mo kittens spayed. That's pretty reasonable and appropriate for the area, I think.

Shelly June 29th, 2009 09:14:11 AM

My area, South Alabama would be more in line with the above comments for pricing. I think I paid $45 plus a coupon, last year for my under 40# female aussie mix, and I opted for the monitoring and pain killers during/after for extra. My female rottie/chow mix was comparable but I received her after the fact and from a different vet.

I've had all of my animals 'fixed' and would continue, but it would require planning, considering the cost in your article. As it is, for under $100, I don't hesitate. For eBay, I've only used it once and don't think it would even cross my mind to look.

Scott June 29th, 2009 09:35:10 AM

$600-$800!

Jesus Christ!

Well, if on Daily Kos we learned that poor folk shouldn't have pets, I guess we're all poor folk.

That's outrageous. I don't care what your market is.

H. Houlahan June 29th, 2009 09:36:15 AM

I would, if I could check out the vet and her facilities.

I have to agree with her on the prices. I am a vet tech and I know what is involved in the process and I agree that the prices are too high. People want pets, they want animals. But to have to pay $500 to get their dog spayed is hard to swallow. And $300-$400 for a cat neuter? Ridiculous. It takes all of 15 minutes for a non-cryptorchid and most practices don't even intubate the cat. I understand that spays & neuters are the "bread and butter" of a practice in some cases, however, I also think if they cost less, a practice would get much more in volume which would offset any reduction in price. JMO.

What also is annoying? The fact that low-cost vets are automatically considered "bad vets". While this may be the case at times, I know plenty of high-cost vets that absolutely are not good vets.

Heif June 29th, 2009 09:43:08 AM

"Would YOU buy a spay on eBay?" Absolutely! While I understand your concerns, there is also a benefit to dragging professional services into the clear light of day and anyone who is willing to be so public as to auction services on eBay or put their services in big bright print gets kudos in my book. Any professional really putting themselves out there under a microscope isn't afraid of skeletons popping up. I LIKE THAT.

"would you bid on breast implants? Liposuction? Gall bladder surgery?" Well, no to the first 2 but... Yes, I'd love it if doctors put themselves out there in cyber world enough so they're patients would/could comment on them so I could really check them out. Yippee, my idea of a perfect world, being able to check out a doctor on-line without having to waste my time and money just to interview them!

I would "question the ethics, the quality and the professionalism" of those who continue to hide behind the curtain when all professionals are more akin to the Wizard than we want to admit; we're just people. We're not special or magical and we all need to come down off our high horses and pedestals.

And I second H. Houlahan's comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PJBoosinger June 29th, 2009 09:50:36 AM

I've worked with shelters and animal advocacy groups in Los Angeles for 25 years. Right now the going rate to spay dogs at shelter clinics starts around $50 and climbs to maybe $150 for the big girls. Granted, that's often a subsidized fee that may not last in this economy, and appointments are limited.

Even so, there are a lot of clinics that keep sterilization costs affordable; not hard to find $40 cat neuters, $60 cat spays and dog surgeries starting around $70. Some clinic have flat fees (add-ons for pg, complications, giant breeds) and others rate according to dog weights.

Love Dr Bonner's sales method, but at her "low prices," she would find few takers in So Cal. If you don't blink at forking over $250 for a regulation dog spay, you're not bargain-hopping on eBay.

oh holland June 29th, 2009 09:59:18 AM

*I* wouldn't buy a surgical procedure for myself on ebay, but I am downright certain there are people who would.

Dr. Khuly, having read a fair bit of your blog archive, I (think that I) know why you consider $600 to $800 reasonable, and it makes sense. You know what goes into what we consider a normal procedure: that sometimes it's not a normal procedure, that even when it all goes smoothly the dog still deserves someone monitoring the anesthesia, good pain medication during and after, and so on.

I've also read your comments about doing feral spay/neuter, and I imagine this is what a $50 spay gets: quick work, less monitoring, less pain meds if any, no IV drip. That's not terrifically humane, but ... is it better than, say, a dog wearing her body out with litter after litter of unwanted puppies?

I'm sure there's a happy medium where pets can get good, humane speuters and the owners don't have to pay half a grand+, but it's not reasonable for us to demand them without knowing all the reasoning behind the pricing. And if we know all the reasoning behind the pricing, then we have to take responsibility for any safety/health of the pet we may be giving up by demanding it be done cheaper.

Galadriel June 29th, 2009 10:08:19 AM

Wonder what prices are charged to vaccinate pets coming in for surgeries at Dr Bonner's?

When I ran a low-cost spay/neuter campaign for a coalition of Los Angeles area shelter agencies, participating vets had to state not only their surgical fees, but fees for vaccinations. A lot of vets dropped their prices to take advantage of the campaign's publicity and garner new clients. We didn't dictate prices; they were set by the vets.

In the very beginning a few DVMs offered low lead prices to spay/neuter, but made it up on the back end by jacking up prices for vaccinations, which most patients needed. Didn't take me long to implement a rule about getting each vet's pricing for the whole enchilada up front. Bingo, vaccination prices dropped too.

oh holland June 29th, 2009 10:19:05 AM

Since I have had a client at my vet clinic for over 10 years, I would not but a spay on ebay. Plus those prices are outrageous.

Holly June 29th, 2009 10:35:08 AM

Lots of vets charge much less for spays and neuters than for other surgeries. A simple lumpectomy, for example, is usually a much easier procedure than any spay. And yet most people accept that it'll cost more. Moreover, large dog spays are the hardest surgeries I do. It kinda hurts to work hard for an hour on a large bitch (not including prep and recovery time), knowing you have 15 years of experience and the best protocols and you're only getting $300 for your time, your staff's, the drugs and supplies and and your overhead. When a pack of sutures costs us $8 and we need to use five on a large bitch, you can start to see why spays go for almost nothing in our books. We do it cheaper not only because we think we must for the sake of overpopulation but because we can't compete with the highly subsidized, no-frills $25-$100 spays and neuters out there.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 29th, 2009 10:42:42 AM

Thanks PJB but I'll have to shorten your links (stretching out the page):

The first, the second and the third.

Thanks!

Dr. Patty Khuly June 29th, 2009 10:45:21 AM

No, I would not buy a spay on ebay.

I'm not sure it will do much good for the issue she is discussing (who looks for spays on ebay?) but more importantly -- what is NOT being disclosed?

As you have pointed out in this blog, there is a world of difference between a "spay on the cheap" and a spay with all the best available modern technology and staff. The average client may buy a "spay on the cheap" all the while assuming their pet is getting the best available modern care. IF problems arise, they may be disturbed to learn that . . . .

Their pet wasn't intubated when s/he should have been

Their pet wasn't monitored with a pulse/ox machine

Their pet did not have appropriate pre-surgical bloodwork recommended or performed

Unlicenced technicians were left unsupervised to monitor the pet

Constant rate infusion IVs were not used

The safest available anesthetic protocol was not used

Adequate post-operative pain management was not provided

I do not know if Dr. Bonner's "ebay spay" will provide all of those safeguards, but I wish someone would ask her and have her post the answer on the listing, at least so people will know whether they are getting a spay in which corners are cut while expense is spared, or whether the best care possible will be provided.

Is it legal to auction human surgeries online? If not, why is it OK for animals?

Stefani June 29th, 2009 10:49:51 AM

Last year, a dental with two extractions cost $600 total for my then nearly fifteen-year-old cat. Included pre-op blood work, anesthetic monitoring, etc., but it wasn't major abdominal surgery.

The previous year, same vet hospital, I paid, I forget the exact number, but about $280 for a spay on a year-old, fourteen-pound dog. Also included pre-op blood work, anesthetic monitoriing, post-op take-home pain meds (didn't mention the pain meds for the cat, but she got them too), and it was major abdominal surgery. Oh, and the other thing it included was an unmentioned-except-on-the-bill $100 discount because it was a spay. So, say $400 if they'd charged full freight for that surgery.

Some of that difference is because working on a heallthy young adult is less fraught with risk than operating on a geriatric patient. But a lot of it was that they were discounting the spay to encourage spaying--and I tend to suspect that the discount that showed up on the bill was not necessarily the whole discount. I don't believe for one minute they took a loss on that surgery, but I suspect they sacrificed a lot of what would have been the hospital's profit.

That's the thing. People think that when they pay $250 for a spay, they're paying full price. Depending on your area and the costs of doing business there, that's probably not the case. You're getting a discount you may only find if you read your bill in detail--and maybe not even there.

Lis June 29th, 2009 11:05:00 AM

Stefani, from Dr. Khuly's post:

Any way you slice it, it's a bargain. Especially since she's offering a complete service with anesthetic monitoring and equipment during the spay and surgery and pain medication before, during and after. Though there are extra charges for those who are older or pregnant.

So, yes, those things are included.

I'd still be wary of buying a spay on eBay, if I were even looking there for one, which I wouldn't be.

Lis June 29th, 2009 11:07:49 AM

Stefani: There are many, many, many clinics out there that don't do much of what you state in your post. Working as a tech, I know this from personal experience. Even some of the more pricey clinics don't do many of those things.

Plus, your "unlicensed technicians" comment is just rude. Not every clinic has licensed techs. Plus, I'd rather have an experienced OTJ trained monitor my pets than a right out of school CVT/RVT/LVT because that OJT is going to have way more experience with what to watch for, etc.. Just because a tech doesn't have a certification doesn't automatically mean they are terrible technicians who have no clue what they are doing. This particular generalization really pisses me off.

In a perfect, textbook world we'd have experienced licensed techs, all the bells and whistles, every petient would get an IV catheter, PABW, pain relief CRIs. But very few clinics are perfect and textbook. I'm thrilled for you if you have one that is, but in reality most aren't.

Heif June 29th, 2009 11:32:33 AM

I think this is a really neat marketing move, and I'd definitely consider buying a s/n off of eBay once I had done some research on the clinic and what was being offered. I would never think to look for a s/n on eBay but knowing that they're there, I'd consider it.

I'm jealous of everyone here who considers the auction prices on the high side. It cost me over $300 to spay one cat (she was in heat so it was a little more than usual), and this was at the most affordable clinic in town. Unfortunate we have no low-cost s/n clinics here and while there is a charity that will subsidize s/n for low income families, I believe the demand is greater than they can keep up with.

If I had options available to me for lower cost s/n I'd definitely be looking at taking advantage of them (and adopting more cats - the cost of s/n is prohibitive as it is.)

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com June 29th, 2009 11:44:33 AM

Anlina,

The low-cost spay-neuter clinic where I live charges $55 for dogs and $50 for cats. They also do low-cost vaccine clinics. I realize that's dirt cheap, especially compared to costs in other parts of the US. But, I live in an area where wages and the cost of living are very low. I would expect that folks in areas with $600 spays earn a heck of a lot more than people here do, so I think it's deceiving to look at just the cost of one medical procedure, when it's out of context.

Shelly June 29th, 2009 11:56:21 AM

If it's the first week on the job for both of them, do you want the licensed vet tech, or the person getting OTJ training only? Because, y'know, at any randomly selected pair of clinics, it's no more likely that the licensed vet tech is brand new than the OTJ-only vet tech. And at equal levels of experience, I'll take the person who also has the education, every time, unless I have some more specific reason to make the other choice.

Lis June 29th, 2009 12:09:29 PM

Lis, I wasn't comparing a first week OTJ to an inexperienced licensed tech, please reread what I wrote. In a situation like that *of course* I'd prefer the licensed tech for the same reasons as you. However, it is completely unfair to say that every *experienced* OTJ is not a good technician. It simply is NOT true.

Heif June 29th, 2009 12:43:55 PM

Heif,

I am sorry you feel that the comment is rude, but perhaps you can answer a question for me:

How can a client confirm the training and experience of an unlicensed technician, OBJECTIVELY?

No, it's not adequate to simply ask the vet: "Are they trained?" because that doesn't result in information that is objectively verifiable by a client.

I would sincerely like to know:

If I, as a client, want to VERIFY OBJECTIVELY that an unlicensed technician is sufficiently trained to monitor my pet, HOW can I do that?

And surely you know, that it is actually in violation of the practice act to allow unlicensed staff to performs many duties unsupervised. The specific rules very from state to state.

My problem is this:

There is a WORLD of difference between an unlicensed technician with 10 years of experience who has worked at clinics where he or she was CONSCIENTIOUSLY trained by the vets and senior staff, vs. an unlicensed technician who is a student on summer break, or who has only been working for 2 months.

How do I, as a client, know, and VERIFY, that all "unlicensed technicians" that will be involved with my pet will be adequately trained?

Please don't say "trust." Been there, done that, it didn't work out very well.

http://www.TheTooncesProject.com

Stefani June 29th, 2009 12:56:38 PM

I paid $55 for a neuter and $95 for a spay on 2 of my cats. There were additional charges for pain meds and a couple other things but it was still well under $200 each. $600 to $800 would prevent me from adopting a pet unless it was spayed or neutered already. Way too pricey for me. I live in BC Canada and I've never heard of prices that high for a spay/neuter and I've been to several different vets as I've moved.

Faith June 29th, 2009 01:42:10 PM

I don't know...it just strikes me as a little skeezy to be offering surgical services on eBay. Working for a corporate practice will surely teach you the realities of marketing, production, and profit in vet med, but still...eBay? Eh. With regards to the prices, subsidization is the name of the game when it comes to spays/neuters. Veterinarians are in the interesting/contradictory/somewhat unfair position of being expected to discount their services on s/n because society as a whole has proved itself irresponsible when it comes to pet overpopulation, and for a long time vets have been doing that, and many clients have come to expect cheap s/n. And of course, all of us here realize that the reason we sometimes pay astronomical mark-ups on other veterinary services, like in-hospital injections, fluid therapy, medications to go home, etc., is to make up for areas where we charge less than an appropriate mark-up...like s/n. I've found the most effective way to defend our prices is not only to point out what that price includes, but also to point out (when the client inevitably brings it up as a counter-argument) that when an owner pays $50 for a spay at a low-cost clinic, someone else is paying the rest for them, either through donated supplies, money donations, or staff/vets volunteering their time (to say nothing of the possible difference in quality). It's a subtle reminder that low-cost clinics are in place for those who TRULY cannot afford otherwise...and if you're not one of those people, then you're taking advantage.

anna June 29th, 2009 01:49:37 PM

Both my cats were adopted from a local animal shelter for about $125 apiece--not only already spayed, but de-parasited, felv tested and vaccinated. Geez, no wonder shelters are having trouble staying afloat.

It's been about 10 years since I had to pay a vet to neuter an animal, but I think it cost about $80 then.

dianemarie123 June 29th, 2009 02:21:44 PM

Anna: I, too, get up in arms about those who can pay and instead rely on public assistance (which is effectively what it is) to have their pets spayed and neutered at a deep, subsidized discount. Strays? I don't care if you have millions. You're doing a service to the community and you deserve the discounts (though I'd prefer it if you made a hefty donation instead). But your own pets? Puh-lease. Would you pay with food stamps at the grocery store if you could get them? That's in essence, what you're doing when you use these services.

Dr. Patty Khuly June 29th, 2009 02:32:00 PM

Stefani, There is at least one site where human surgeries are reverse auctioned. I'd prefer a straight auction and, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't be prohibited. I really can't see where or why it would be illegal.

Our discount spay/neuter clinic in Houston requires proof of "need"/low income. Don't they all?

Dr. K, thanks for fixing my links. Think I've figured it out. Will know for sure when I hit the button :)

PJBoosinger June 29th, 2009 03:28:51 PM

I buy and sell on ebay all the time and have for years. Would I buy and sell a spay and neuter...yes. I would.

I think that some vets have some seriously grandiose ideas of how much they should be able to clear an hour....and while I do not begrudge anyone the "american" dream, it makes it very hard for those of us who work to save a lot of animals and can't rely on a 503c, or even those who do rely on a 503c these days.

I also don't agree with the idea that poor people shouldn't own pets. I have just moved from an affluent area to one that is simpler and kinder and with it goes a certain mentality towards s/n pets. So no doubt in time I'll be rounding up strays and having them s/n....on my own, and I appreciate a little competition to bring down the prices. There are plenty of ways to find out if the vet is reliable.

btw...your link

http://cgi.ebay.com/Get-Your-Cat-Fixed-Spay-All-Pets-for-100-at-Vet_W0QQitemZ260435251252QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca3269034&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A2|294%3A50

LorriM June 29th, 2009 03:46:10 PM

When I graduated from veterinary college (in 1964), we were taught in ethics class and had enforced by the State Board that any advertising was unethical and unprofessional. We were allowed to have the smallest listing in the yellow pages and signs with lettering lo larger than 2" high. Once lawyers sued their state board for the right to advertise, "the cat was out of the bag." In my view, the big problem with advertising is that it is usually expensive and, therefore, adds to the cost of providing service to the public. Perhaps on-line advertising may circumvent this by reaching many people at low cost.

Dr. Steve Dubin June 29th, 2009 05:47:07 PM

PJ, thank you for the interesting link.

I have heard about medical tourism, but not this . . .

The site you linked to about surgery auctions for humans also has some interesting discussion -- some quotes:

"This idea is totally irresponsible," says Dr. Mimis Cohen, a board-certified plastic surgeon and professor and chief of plastic surgery at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Cook County Hospital. 'If you cut prices to be competitive, you can expect people to start cutting corners. This is not like an airline seat; these are human lives.'" [emphasis mine]

"But the Rev. Russell Burck, director of the program in ethics at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center, said . . . . "Just because they set up their business on an auction site online, it doesn't mean doctors are freed from doing their best work," Burck said. . . . The American Medical Association has no policy on the service, but a representative called the idea "bizarre."'

Not saying Bonner is necessarily cutting corners, now that the link has been posted (although as a consumer, I'd recommend a lot more questions before bidding).

But since a spay is not a spay is not a spay is not a spay -- regardless of the quality Bonner may or may not be providing -- taking spays into the auction arena encourages clients not to differentiate about quality, but rather focus on price. What happens when her competitor puts spays online, WITHOUT monitoring, etc. -- for $70? Will "ebay spay" shoppers take the time to differentiate, or merely do the price comparison?

Previously, when we have discussed the quality-price connection, many of you have argued that a reasonable client should ASSUME that the cheaper the spay, the more corners are being cut. Why then, would we want to take this into an arena where the emphasis is on bidding for the lowest price?

Stefani June 29th, 2009 06:23:35 PM

ooops, I didn't need those tags. . . .

Stefani June 29th, 2009 06:24:15 PM

I would, but only from my veterinarian or my veterinary orthopedist (also a GP). I don't have an problem with this, myself. It occurred to me that it would make a nice charity auction, to fund low cost s/n!

Julie in OH June 29th, 2009 08:40:02 PM

Nope, no way I'd by a spay/neuter on ebay. Aside from those prices being outrageous for my area, I'd sooner go to a vet that I've already met with. I'd rather go where the vet already knows my other animals, and I have trusted to do surgery before. Sorry, I think it's tacky to advertise stuff like that on ebay and I'd avoid any doctor or vet that did.

cl June 29th, 2009 09:13:01 PM

Well to the commenters about the price....don't move up to New England, surely you would go broke! And I find it sad & deplorable, that s/n and care in general is becoming cost prohibitive for folks with jobs, let alone the un-employed.

On the other hand, I should point out that there were two tiers of low-cost funding in NH, one of which was NOT dependant on income, but applicable to adoption via shelter, rescue group, or pet store. What that entails as far as above bare minimum, I have no clue...as I always paid the "full price" and then some for the pre-surgical workup.

And I have read the comments about educational costs, that too, has become ludicrous, along with human healthcare. It is not only the veterinary profession that graduates with massive debt. Average tuition/cost is $35,000/yr. , add in living & it goes to $45-50,000. Now just what income is a nurse, school teacher, or pharmacist entering the job market going to make for starting salary?

Now, is it a commodity? Well, if you view a pet as property & less than family as the law dictates, why sure...it is a service commodity without accountibility. Stefani & I harp on this issue repeatedly.

Barbara A.Albright/NH June 29th, 2009 10:35:57 PM

Stefani, there is no way to determine it objectively. On the flip side, there is also no way to determine objectively that the CVT watching your animal in recovery has a clue, either. Yes, there is a national exam they need to take, and a degree they need to get. However, some techs are just good "at the test" and can answer multiple choice questions well. It doesn't mean they are good technicians, it just means they managed to pass the test or can regurgitate correct answers without really understanding them (and perhaps they were dead last in their class in school). There's just no way to know.

As for violations to the Practice Act, that burden falls on the shoulders of the vets. Until the vets get monetarily or legally impacted by having OJT techs doing things they are not supposed to, it will continue. It is the *vets* people should be having problems with, not the OJTs. It is the *vet's* responsibility to make sure that your animal wakes up properly or is properly monitored, and if the vet allows an improperly trained OJT or CVT to recover your animal, that is where the blame should be placed. Unfortunately, it's easier to say that it it all the fault of the OJT, etc., than to blame the vet. But in truth, it is the vet's fault for allowing it to happen.

I am 100% for having *every* technician licensed. However, I also recognize that many OJT are excellent at what they do, and wonderful technicians. Yes, I'd much prefer them to get their degree and get that CVT/LVT/RVT after their name, but I know it isn't always possible (though the online programs now make it more possible than ever before). But I know many, many OJT that are incredible, and have serious knowledge and skills, and would pass the VTNE easily, but they don't have their degree and/or their state doesn't allow them to take the test. And it really pains me when all OJT are lumped together as being poorly trained or just poor technicians in general :( Generalizations are bad things.

Heif June 29th, 2009 10:53:20 PM

Thanks for defending us, Heif. My coworkers (also OJT) and I work hard to make sure we provide the utmost in care for our patients and we are constantly working closely with the doctor to ensure that this is the case. We are having trouble finding competent CVTs to bring onto the staff because they are snapped up by bigger hospitals in the area whose salary/benefits we just can't compete with, and we refuse to scrape the bottom of the barrel just to get those 3 letters if the person does not meet our standards.

OJT Tech June 29th, 2009 11:33:08 PM

Heif & OJT, I agree that the ultimate responsibility of patient care does fall on the licensed veterinarian.

I have an on thread question to this. When a technician is "licensed" what code are they to adhere to legally? I am curious as to whether their code is independent of the veterinarian-in-charge.

Barbara

Barb A./NH June 30th, 2009 12:57:45 AM

Stefani, I used that link because it had a nice discussion and also thought it interesting that it took place in 2000. I really think this is worth an ongoing discussion over time. "many of you have argued that a reasonable client should ASSUME that the cheaper the spay, the more corners are being cut." Not I. I'm in the crowd ranting about the outrageous prices currently being charged by professionals. :)

Seriously, I know it isn't that simple. Dr. Dubin is correct but, as I recall, advertising was cheap until that cat escaped the bag and then the costs skyrocketed so mass advertising by professionals was pretty limited. Hopefully, the internet will improve that. Something does need to be done about the cost of education but something also needs to be done about students and professionals who think they should be "well off" even before graduating; that we go into practice at 30 and retire at 55. These are simply unreasonable expectations. And the public should not be paying extra because professionals can't be bothered to be effective and efficient because they can just pass along the costs, whatever they may be, and this is what is happening out there.

"Featherbedding only emerges under certain circumstances. Chief among these is that the employer has an exploitable surplus (e.g., profit) to support the practice. Featherbedding also arises where market forces fail and organizations are permitted to be noncompetitive... Featherbedding can, in some circumstances, take excess resources (profits) away from the employer and give them to workers in the form of more income per worker or higher numbers of employees at the same income level." See link for more. Know I'll get in trouble with some of the women but here goes...

I decided to compete in men's fields (accounting and law). I made arrangements for my child and, when I was at work, my boss had 100% of my attention and time and I didn't get calls except for emergencies and I took care of my personal business on my own time. It annoys me to no end to stand at a counter waiting while a vet employee blathers on with someone on the phone about some trivial personal matter (grocery list, dinner plans...). It annoys me no less to suspect that the professional whose services I'm paying for is probably doing the same thing behind closed doors (and I suspect that because it's the most probable reason the staff thinks it's OK to do it the desk). I'm an old feminist and truly believe in equal pay for EQUAL WORK. It annoys me to no end that women seem to have turned that into equal pay for LESS work and that the "less work" part is spreading like wildfire because the men are right that equal pay for less work is just plain unfair and that isn't what most of us spent our lives fighting for. The end result is a new kind of featherbedding where people do all kinds of things at work that AREN'T work and expecting to be paid even higher wages. Seriously?

PJBoosinger June 30th, 2009 02:48:34 AM

Heif, once you are at the point of placing blame, it is too late. Your beloved pet is already dead or injured.

Sorry that this upsets you, but I now do the ONLY objective thing i can to try to screen for appropriately trained vet techs, and THAT IS -- I go to a place that uses only licensed technicians. That is the only PROACTIVE action I can take BEFORE tragedy strikes to ensure a minimal level of training. It is no guarantee, but it is certainly better than leaving it all to TRUST and then being in a position of assigning BLAME after the fact.

Stefani June 30th, 2009 09:33:43 AM

P.S. Heif --

I totally understand that there are many experienced, excellent vet support staff who are unlicensed. I know two of them. I'd be happy to have either of them work with my pets, because I am reasonably confident that I know their skills. The problem is, of course, they are hither and yon and certainly not in the same practice. Because I can't be equally confident of the skills of "unlicensed technicians" I don't know, I choose to go to a practice that uses only licensed technicians.

I would love to see more vets provide tuition for "assistants" to become licensed techs, and I would love to see licensed techs paid what they are worth. When someone starts a movement to do this, let me know. I would love to support it.

Stefani June 30th, 2009 10:02:31 AM

Until the vets get monetarily or legally impacted by having OJT techs doing things they are not supposed to, it will continue. It is the *vets* people should be having problems with, not the OJTs. It is the *vet's* responsibility to make sure that your animal wakes up properly or is properly monitored, and if the vet allows an improperly trained OJT or CVT to recover your animal, that is where the blame should be placed. Unfortunately, it's easier to say that it it all the fault of the OJT, etc., than to blame the vet. But in truth, it is the vet's fault for allowing it to happen.

It's the vet's fault, for having unqualified staff and for not supervising properly.

But by the time we get to the stage of "placing blame," it's too late. That's after our pets are injured or worse. What we're trying to do is prevent that from happening in the first place. And there's no way for me as a pet owner to assess the knowledge and skills of an unlicensed tech. I know only that the vet says they're qualified; if I'm new to the practice, how do I assess the vet's assessment of that? The only tool I have is whether or not the vet techs are licensed/certified.

And it just doesn't occur to most people that it's even possible that the "vet tech" might be a high school student, not even a hs graduate, but still in school, working an after-school or weekend job.

And yet, you argue that pet owners shouldn't care, shouldn't ask, shouldn't be the least bit concerned about it.

But I know many, many OJT that are incredible, and have serious knowledge and skills, and would pass the VTNE easily, but they don't have their degree and/or their state doesn't allow them to take the test. And it really pains me when all OJT are lumped together as being poorly trained or just poor technicians in general :( Generalizations are bad things.

Generalizations are bad things, and there are many very capable OJT vet techs out there, but the pet owner has no means by which to individually evaluate every single vet tech they come in contact with, or that their pets will come in contact with. We need some tools, and licnesure/certification at least guarantees that they have been exposed to a certain minimum amount of knowledge--something we have no assurance of with any randomly selected OJT vet tech.

If old Dr. Sayed had told me (had I had the knowledge to ask back then), "I have personally trained this person and she is a knowledgable, capable, caring vet tech who will take excellent care of your cat while she is under our care," I would have had absolute faith in that and not cared if the "vet tech" was still in grade school, never mind high school. But that would have been after he saved the life of our very sick new kitten and earned our undying trust and confidence. (Really, without going into detail, that poor kitten should have died. Most other vets would have gently suggested it might be kinder to euthanize her. But Dr. Sayed had worked at the ASPCA when they were taking in 20,000 cats a year, and finding homes for 2,000, and he never, ever wanted to euthanize an animal again if there was any other choice. So he said he could save her, and he did. And I had her for another fifteen years.)

When I have to start with a new vet, I don't yet have that knowledge, trust, and confidence. I don't have a basis for assuming that the vet techs must be high-quality or they wouldn't be working there. Whether or not the vet techs are licensed is part of how I assess a new vet.

Do you have some other practical guidance to offer, which would let me ignore with confidence the licensed/unlicensed status of the vet techs?

Lis June 30th, 2009 10:48:25 AM

PJB: Featherbedding is a term I havn't heard for years. At the risk of OT, my select group of USPS has been exempt from the Fair Labor Standard Act forever. What has this meant for me? Well, during the recent times of huge price/labor increases, my wages have stagnated or remained the same only through "increased" labor days.

In other words, my work week & days worked per year has increased beyond the typical 5 day/52 week year. Our flat salary determined yearly through actual piece count , determines the following year wage. This is chosen at the trough of mail volume for a selected time frame. Therefore, during peak hours we are exempt from FLSA of up to 12 hrs. /day or 56 hours/week.

Back on topic, so an individual hard pressed to meet rising fuel, utililities, food costs is expected to dole out more than a weeks wages for a spay procedure "normally" no longer than 30 minutes (tops?). An individual is fraudulently bilked out of $3700 for a hopeless treatment? How much of "my" pay do you think that comprises?

There are lots of folks in every sector that are hard workers, and then there are those that have contributed a drag to the workforce and helped along the economic crisis.

Barbara A. Albright/NH June 30th, 2009 11:10:19 AM

Hmmm.

Because we know that more income per worker is automatically a bad thing, right, PJ? At least, that appears to be what you are saying. Did you actually read more than the first paragraph at the link you posted? Did you notice that the article says that "featherbedding" is a response to union weakness and the INsufficient legal protection of workers' rights in their jobs?

PJ, sorry, to break the news to you, but I've seen exactly the same behavior in law firms--including by the lawyers.

And a significant part of the reason that this happens is that people have less and less time away from work. They can't do these things on "their own time" because they don't have "their own time" during the hours that they can other offices and businesses that they need to be in contact with just to keep their cars running, their homes and appliances intact and in good repair, their kids' teachers or pediatricians, their pets' vets.

My doctor's office is open 8:30am to 6:00pm. He does not have afterhours coverage. If I need a prescription refill called in, or if I need to make an appointment, I do it during work hours, because, "emergency" or not, it needs to be done and I can't do it when there's no one there.

Everyone is being ground down further and further, more work hours if they still have jobs, fewer benefits, pressure not to take the vacation and personal time they're theoretically entitlted to--and the smug and the self-satisfied and the self-righteous call the natural consequences of that "feather-bedding" and regard it as evidence that the lowly workers haven't been ground down far enough yet.

Lis June 30th, 2009 12:12:15 PM

Two things- th going rate around here for a bare bones s/n is under a hundred bucks. If you want the monitoring, it runs about 250 - 300. My guys get the monitoring and all available pain meds...NOT getting it was no option..

As to the side bar of the unlicensed vet techs..

My niece walked into a well known chain pet store that also has vets... she was hired with NO experience and by the end of her first day had already euthanized two dogs. All they taught her was for the lowest price, the animals get ONE shot. For more money they are upgraded to TWO shots- one that knocks them out before they are killed...

She quit after 2 months. Never had any training except how to kill animals and bathe dogs that came in for grooming.

I am sure there are good vet techs.. but I think a LOT of them at these chain stores are worth exactly what they are paid-minimum wage...no offense to the people who fill the vet tech slots there- it's just another side effect of mass merchandising, over vaccinating chain stores who are in it of rthe money first.

agadoresmama June 30th, 2009 02:46:22 PM

Lis,

I said: I am 100% for having *every* technician licensed. However, I also recognize that many OJT are excellent at what they do, and wonderful technicians. Yes, I'd much prefer them to get their degree and get that CVT/LVT/RVT after their name, but I know it isn't always possible (though the online programs now make it more possible than ever before).

You replied: And yet, you argue that pet owners shouldn't care, shouldn't ask, shouldn't be the least bit concerned about it.

I NEVER once said that. Where did I saiy pet owners shouldn't care, shouldn't ask, shouldn't be concerned? I didn't.

Heif June 30th, 2009 08:10:59 PM

Heif, if you are not objecting to Stefani judging veterinary hospitals in part on whether they hire only licensed vet techs, you're being remarkably unclear.

LIs June 30th, 2009 08:18:08 PM

Lis, I was objecting to this comment she made: Unlicenced technicians were left unsupervised to monitor the pet

I am sorry if you found it to be unclear. It is Stefani's prerogative to judge a hospital however she wants. What I objected to was the fact that she seemed to be automatically considering all OJT as inferior to licensed.

I understand that there isn't any better way to know if a tech is good or not, and if using a hosp that only uses licensed techs is what you need to do to feel secure that your animal is getting proper care, by all means please do. However, I am sick and tired of the blackballing of OJT technicians. It's a terrible generalization that isn't true. It's like saying that all licensed techs are good techs. Again, another generalization and simply not true. Believe me, I have known some CVTs that couldn't figure their way out of a box. I've also known some OJT that I wouldn't let even look at my animals, let alone touch them. But I've also known some OJT that were absolutely incredible and knew more than the first year vet they were working with. Same with CVTs.

The odds are in the favor of licensed techs being better techs, yes. I do not disagree with this. I just object to the generalization that is rampant these days that every OJT isn't a good technician.

Heif June 30th, 2009 08:34:42 PM

I am still curious to know the difference in "initials", what goes along with it and what state by state statutes govern these licensed by the state individuals. RN's & LPN's , etc have codes to live up too & regulatory boards have authority over them.They are independent of MDs & carry malpractice insurance.

How is lic. vet techs the same or different from the human field? Anyone know?

Barb A./NH June 30th, 2009 09:01:03 PM

Barb: a licenced vet tech is like an RN in human medicine.

Heif June 30th, 2009 09:04:42 PM

Heif, clearly a sore issue for you. I don't think we fundamentally disagree that an OJT tech can be very good. If I had access to a small clinic, where I loved and trusted the vet, AND I knew every single solitary tech and assistant, AND there was low turnover so I pretty much knew everyone who would be working with my pets, AND was confident of their skills personally through knowing them, then I would be willing to use such a place. However, the problem is of course, that kind of intimate knowledge of every staff member's abilities isn't really practical. Also, a practice that emphasizes and has policies about using only licensed techs for those duties reserved for technicians (i.e., all unlicensed are "assistants: and duties stratified accordingly) is less likely to bend the rules and oh, for example, get someone's kid to come in on weekends and provide patient care, like what happened to my cat, with a horrible yet predictable result. There are so many practices that are very loosey goosey about such policies, that when they are called on it by the board, the answer typically is: "But EVERYONE does it!"

Having heard that many times, or read it, I know that unless I am VERY intimate with a practice and ALL its employees, the best thing I can do is go to a practice that uses licensed techs, and has strict policies about who does what at their hospital. I am fortunate to live somewhere I have access to such a place. I drive an hour, though, to get there. And I am totally willing to do it.

I think more "experienced, good" unlicensed veterinary staff members would be willing to pursue licensing if there were more gold at the end of the rainbow -- that is, if it was rewarded with the kind of salary that would enable you to pay the debt from tuition, and give you a better lifestyle. I'm curious -- if your boss offered to pay your tuition, and then give you a 15% raise when you finished the program and passed your exam, would you get the license? Do you think most "experienced" OJT techs would?

I know that many vets are simply unwilling to pay more when they can hire unlicensed staff with whatever level of experience and pay them less, this is a long time coming to your field. I hope clients will learn the value of it. It's not a personal insult to you, but when your field fails to differentiate between you, and your level of experience, and someone else with very little experience, how can clients differentiate? You all come out in scrubs, and we can't tell who has 15 years experience and who has 6 months. Or less . . .

FWIW, I never understood the distinction myself until it was too late for my best friend. If I had known what questions to ask, a tragedy may have been averted.

http://www.TheTooncesProject.com/whathappenedtotoonces.html

Stefani June 30th, 2009 09:05:21 PM

Barb, I read your comment too fast.

Licensed techs are usually regulated by the state and have to take CE every year. They are somewhat regulated too by the AVMA, but probably not as much as human nurses.

Heif June 30th, 2009 09:10:58 PM

On LorriM's comment, "I think that some vets have some seriously grandiose ideas of how much they should be able to clear an hour..."

As a client, that often seems true to me as well, but as a soon-to-be vet, here's the other side:

As a private practitioner, we are told that our total compensation should equal between 18-22% of the income we generate for a practice. That is after the direct cost of supplies or drugs is subtracted. The rest goes to cover clinic overhead, such as the building itself, support staff, equipment and maintenance, etc.

Not all time is "bill-able" - we spend a lot of time making phone calls, doing paperwork, looking at test results and X-rays, reading journal articles, going to mandatory meetings.

Out of your approx. 20%, you have to get salary plus benefits (some wiggle room there, as employers get better rates on group benefits). Even assuming you take home that whole 20% as salary, withhold 30% in taxes. With what's left, you have to pay off student loans, which for many graduating vets is at least $1000/month. God help you if you have loans left from undergrad, or if you deferred your loans (with interest adding up) to do an internship or residency.

After all those years of work, it would be nice to take home more money than you did at a lab tech job with a B.S. in Biology. I don't deny that some people get greedy, or that "practice overhead" may involve things like advertising, insurance, licensing fees, etc. that do not directly improve your quality of care.

This is just FYI, I make no judgement on what particular vets charge, nor am I saying that lower prices mean poor care.

Kate June 30th, 2009 09:59:49 PM

Stefani:

I actually agree with you on all your points. I just have a sore spot on the OJT issue because so many people are just willing to dismiss OJT. I just don't like generalizations like that because I know some awesome OJT.

I am currently in school to get my CVT. I am half -ay through the program. I am an OJT (I take classes online, with an AVMA accredited program). Your question about techs going to school? Oh heck yeah. If the tech could get the employer to pay for it, you betcha. Here's one of the rubs about the OJT thing: low salaries. Because they can be paid less, they are. This keeps them from being able to afford the program to get their degree. I am paying for my schooling out of pocket, but I am lucky enough that my husband makes a good salary. If it was just my salary, there's no way I'd be able to afford school. Every OJT I know would jump at the chance if their employer paid for it.

I *want* the boards to clamp down on the clinics. There needs to be more regulation, especially since people are considering their animals to be as important to them as their children in many cases. The clinics that allow OJT to do things that is against the law in their state are only making things worse. While I totally feel there are awesome OJTs, I also feel they should get certified because it would make the profession more professional as a whole.

Wha you and Lis are doing by insisting that the techs that work on your animals are licensed, is actually the best thing for my profession. If everyone did this, clinics would have to go with the flow, and you'd seen an increase in licensed techs. I want this, I really do! I *want* my profession to be taken seriously, and I want the best care for my clinic's clients. Until the *vets* take the laws seriously, however, it won't happen.

Heif June 30th, 2009 10:00:15 PM

"How is lic. vet techs the same or different from the human field? Anyone know?" Barb, that's going to be a state by state issue. Each state decides which "initials" can be used after our names under what circumstances. Some of them indicate degrees and certificates and some indicate licensing. For example, I can still put "J.D." (which is my degree) after my name even though I'm no longer in practice and don't maintain a license but I'm prohibited from using the term "attorney at law"(in Texas). You'd need to look to your state's statutes for the specifics. There is some amount of reciprocity between states but it's far less than 100%. I get the impression there's far more reciprocity in the medical fields than many others.

"here's the other side..." The percentages are fine to use IF, and only IF, the business is being run effectively and efficiently AND they result in an equitable pay level. "Not all time is "bill-able" - we spend a lot of time making phone calls, doing paperwork, looking at test results and X-rays, reading journal articles, going to mandatory meetings." Sorry but those are billables, either you should be billing for them OR they're built in to billable rates; however, the time spent doing them needs to be carefully managed. In my experience, the time in mandatory meetings can get seriously out of hand.

"After all those years of work, it would be nice to take home more money than you did at a lab tech job with a B.S. in Biology." It might be "nice" HOWEVER you've just described leaving one profession and starting another but wanting not to have to take a temporary step backward in pay. Any time one changes careers (or even jobs), one may experience this and expecting not to do so is in my "unrealistic expectations" category. I practiced as an accountant then took a serious pay hit to go to law school and my starting salary as an attorney wasn't the same as my end salary as an accountant and it would have been worse if I'd chosen a completely unrelated area of law to practice. On the other hand, I had a shorter learning curve than those who went straight through school so progressed faster. In the long run, those with advanced degrees, experience, expertise will get generally get the greater rewards (in pay and otherwise) but expecting not to have to make some short term sacrifices... Really? Gee, I felt so fortunate that I was probably going to get to live and work far more years than former generations (therefore reap more benefits) that it made making those short term sacrifices more reasonable to me.

"more income per worker is automatically a bad thing" I neither said nor implied such. I said MORE pay for LESS work is a bad thing and not automatically but when it is inequitable. "And a significant part of the reason that this happens is that people have less and less time away from work. They can't do these things on "their own time" because they don't have "their own time" during the hours" Hooey, they're at work for more hours BECAUSE they're spending a significant portion of that time transacting personal business, not their employer's business. As for the few things that must be taken care of during your work hours (and with 24/7 regular & electronic banking, pharmacies, etc. and all the other things that can be done electronically, by phone, or during other hours, these are quite fewer today than in yesteryear when, in fact, most of us worked pretty stringent 9-5 hours), one needs to take time off and not expect to be paid. Being able to do that is a privilege and, if it is abused, it shouldn't be tolerated. School activities three afternoons a week? Give me a break!

"lowly workers haven't been ground down far enough yet" ROTFLMAO. Yes, there are a few of those still around but very few. You're going to have to go back in time to find most of them. These days, in the USA, you're talking about illegal aliens if you're using that phrase. Most employers out there are so soft these days they're getting trampled by the sniveling, whining, "poor victim employee" mentality. Liz, employees have so very many legal protections these days it isn't funny and the world of business has swung way too far in accommodating employees whims. Here's real oppression for employees. Featherbedding was the reaction and it's been taken far, far too far.

Could we all just be a wee tiny bit grateful for the vast improvements of the last century instead of wanting, expecting, demanding everything NOW and without sacrifice and whining if we don't get it?

PJBoosinger July 1st, 2009 12:02:24 AM

re: the original topic of buying a procedure on ebay - at first I was appalled but then I realized times have changed and the things they sell on ebay always freak me out ! (I'd put some links in but I have no idea how)

The doctor does list reasonable and responsible items on the description page she advocates preop blood work, etc... I visited her website and she has what appears to be a good resume except the "avid supporter of HSUS" (which she should research and change to local shelter or HS chapter)...I personally wouldn't buy unless it was already my vet and/or I went and checked out the place.

It seems abit odd to me but if it gets some press and gets some dogs s/n then its good...as long as the procedure/protocol is done correctly and properly where do "ethics" get involved ? It has occurred to me lately that the AVMA, veterinarians and others (PETA) are throwing this term "ethics" around alot - things like it is unethical to crop ears, throw fish or this vet advertising on ebay is unethical but shouldn't other veterinarians and the AVMA for that matter only be concerned with "how" procedures are done not the why ?

I don't know...we make comparisons to human medicine all the time so if that's the gold standard, I don't hear the AMA saying it's unethical for young girls to get boob jobs or plastic surgeons to advertise in Seventeen Magazine... I don't know just wondering if its our place to judge ethics or determine what is good or bad ethics outside procedural matters...I thought that was what I went to church for....I thought medicine was a science not theology ?...I know there is some cross over I had to take Ethics in college but it covered matters relating to disclosure, confidentiality, fair practice, etc....never did we study that we'd go to hell for doing a procedure following proper protocol..only if we missed mass ;) LOL

I was gonna stay on topic...really I was...

ps looks like you need a seperate blog entry for Tech requirements and advertising ethics ;)

LC July 1st, 2009 12:58:58 AM

LC, the link thing is easy. Go to the page you want to link to and copy the link; then type something in the text box here and double click on it or left mouse over it (to light it up); now those chains in the bar above will be lit up and you click on the left one; paste the link in the first box; in the second box, choose one of the options; in the thrid box, put something in (don't know if you really have to do that); then click insert. Long explanation but easy once you've done it :)

PJBoosinger July 1st, 2009 02:41:00 AM

Could we all just be a wee tiny bit grateful for the vast improvements of the last century instead of wanting, expecting, demanding everything NOW and without sacrifice and whining if we don't get it?

PJ, sadly, you are, quite simply, wrong.

There was indeed a vast improvement in worker conditions and worker rights during the 20th century. Pay improved, benefits improved, work conditions improved, hours contracted to a 37.5-40 hour week, people got paid vacation, sick leave, the right to be safe at work, enforceable non-discrimination laws, etc.

And then the war against the Evil Unions began.

We can't go into the entire detailed history here, but for more than two decades, there has been pressure on employees to not actually take all their vacation time. Pressure to NOT be out the door at 5pm or 6pm. It affects reviews, it affects raises, it affects your likelihood of being retained in the next round of massive layoffs by a company raking in record profits. More and more of the cost of health care premiums has been shifted from the employer to the employee.

Real employee compensation below the senior executive level has been flat for two decades.

And during the last eight years, enforcement of all those icky OSHA regs and anti-discrimination rules virtually ceased. Wage-and-hour law violations virtually ceased. Workers are spending more time at work, getting less hourly compensation for it effectively but not technically, because so many of those hours are "off the clock". And employees who aren't senior execs or sales people are carrying company-issued smartphones, tied to their employers 24/7, and not getting paid the way the higher-level employees do who USED TO BE the only ones who expected to be tethered to their jobs that way.

And even that isn't the whole story. More and more jobs are becoming "temporary" or "part-time" and have no benefits at all.

I'm an experienced, capable professional in my field. I just spent the last eight months working in a "temporary" "part-time" position that was 37.5 hours a week, no benefits, no holidays, no vacation time. We closed for ten days between Christmas and New Year, that was ten days with no pay at holiday time for me while my boss and the "full-time" staff were enjoying a ten-day paid holiday. And I NEVER worked just 37.5 hours in a week, or just 7.5 hours in a day. Or even just eight hours. It was a professional position, and I was actually covering what should have been two MLS full-time positions, not one. I did my job correctly and in a professional manner, and in consequence they got many hours of unpaid time out of me. And no, I couldn't put in for the extra time, because then, legal or not, I would have been out the door.

And then the academic year ended and I was out the door anyway, because they didn't "need" me anymore. Except, you know, there are different temp/part-time people there now--two of them--who will find in time that they're not going to be allowed to stay long enough for anyone to wonder why they haven't been made permanent.

People are working more hours, getting fewer benefits, being pressured not to use the benefits they theoretically get, and they can't afford the period of unemployment involved in trying to contest the abuses. And people like you think that's a good thing.

BTW, a smart person like you, a CPA and a JD, should be able to spell my name correctly.

Lis July 1st, 2009 09:33:10 AM

Heif: Thanks for responding, although I think I need a whole blog on this. Maybe you can tell us non-vet people what your CVT program is, what it will entitle you to do, and how you are regulated---if that is applicable. What do you expect for ave. increase in wage?

And what should OJT, really be titled as? Sometime ago, I liked the blog about veterinary nurses and this term is applicable in the UK, upon degree.

Barb A./NH July 1st, 2009 10:00:14 PM

I second Heif on the issue of CVT vs. OJT - my employer offers a measly $0.50/hr. raise for those who are certified...hardly enough to persuade any of us to take the time and money necessary to actually complete a certification program. Now, if my employer were willing to pay a part of that, in return for, say, years of service (as is common in many professions), I'd probably be more inclined to do so...and everybody would win.

anna July 1st, 2009 11:00:45 PM

Lis, Sorry about the typo. BTW, I use the term "accountant" instead of CPA for a reason :) I also come from a very long line of union members and advocates. I support unionizing enthusiastically. The purpose of unionizing is to balance the scales in order to protect employees; it is NOT to tip the scales entirely the other direction. In addition, the people I was referring to are generally not unionized. One thing is clear, you don't have a good grasp of unions. In addition, most of those laws ARE enforced when people make the reports and go through the process instead of just whining on the net.

PJBoosinger July 2nd, 2009 03:08:37 AM

PJ, most workers don't have the protection of a union.

When a large percentage of the work force was unionized, conditions improved for workers overall. The union-killing drive of the last thirty years has badly undermined all workers, but especially those of us who don't have unions. (Or who don't have real unions; I don't know if you've ever worked in an environment where clerical and facilities staff were in one union that has its ancestry in the traditional union movement, and people in "professional" positions were in a separate, and separately-created, "union" that was careful not let anyone think it had any connection to those icky Teamsters or UAW people, but the difference is dramatic, in how the workers are treated and what management can get away with.)

If you have no union at all, and you want to file a complaint, you'd better have some way of surviving the period when you're fighting for reinstatement and back wages.

Real compensation for the ordinary worker have been stagnant or declining for three decades. Real paid vacation time has been decreasing. For the last twenty, health care costs for the average worker --out of pocket costs, the worker's share of the premium plus co-pays and deductibles--have been rising.

And meanwhile, the compensation packages in the executive suites have inflated to obscene levels unimaginable forty or fifty years ago.

The scales are tilted heavily against the average worker, and employers no longer feel that they owe any loyalty to their employees. They demand all the employee's time, all the employee's brain power, all of the employee's loyalty, chip away at the compensation, make time off hard to use, feel that when there are layoffs they owe nothing to the laid-off and that the those who still have their job should be grateful not to be unemployed--and then wonder why people whose doctors have no after-hours coverage call their doctors during work hours.

Not too long ago, on the "wonderful" "part-time" job that was 37.5 hours a week (except not really, because I was working a lot more hours than that, just not getting paid for them), my COBRA ran out and I had to go buy my own insurance--which I was able to do at all, btw, due to a MA law that you likely regard as "socialist." I picked the best plan I could kind-of sort-of afford, which had no deductible before the drug benefit kicked in, and an out-of-pocket maximum for prescription drugs. I made a lunch (half) hour call to make sure I knew what to do to have my prescription claims submitted correctly--and the first three levels of people I talked to were serenely certain that that "out of pocket maximum" meant that I had to pay out that amount of money before I got any coverage for drugs at all--i.e., they thought it was the same thing as a "deductible."

I had to get that resolved before I could get refills on the drugs I need to breathe, without which my employer would get no benefit from employing me. And I had to deal with it during the hours tha the insurance company had staff on able to discuss the question at all--which was normal business hours, 8-6.

No way for me to deal with it on my own time.

If I had been eligible for insurance through my employer, there either would never have been a problem, or the HR office would have resolved it while allowing me to do my real job.

And you think workers are sooooo comfy and are just goofing off when they are distracted by things that, in your mind, they could be dealing with at 8pm, or on the weekends. Except, you know, we can't.

Lis July 2nd, 2009 10:16:02 AM

Heif: Thanks for responding, although I think I need a whole blog on this. Maybe you can tell us non-vet people what your CVT program is, what it will entitle you to do, and how you are regulated---if that is applicable. What do you expect for ave. increase in wage?

And what should OJT, really be titled as? Sometime ago, I liked the blog about veterinary nurses and this term is applicable in the UK, upon degree.

Barb, my program, as are most vet tech programs, is for a AAS. I have to take classes on pharmacology, anatomy & physiology, business classes on how to run a practice, pathology classes, classes on how to properly monitor animals before, during, and after surgery, etc.. It's more complicated than that but you get the point.

What a licensed tech can do depends mostly on the rules their state has in place. For example, in Illinois, once I am licensed I will be able to legally do just about anything while under a vet's supervision except diagnose, prescribe medications, or do surgery.

In Illinois, certified techs are regulated by the Dept. of Professional Regulation and have to take a certain amount of CE every year to continue to maintain their certification. There are also various fees involved. In order to first obtain that certification, they must graduate from an AVMA-accredited vet techprogram and successfully pass the VTNE, which is the national exam for vet techs.

Non-licensed OJT are really not supposed to be able to use the title "veterinary technician". They are supposed to be referred to as "veterinary assistants". I personally like the term "veterinary nurse" for licensed techs because it really describes what we do and "technician" confuses a lot of people. However, the nurse lobby here in the US completely objects to the use of the term for us. Many RNs feel that what we do isn't comparable to what they do and by allowing us to use "nurse" we are denigrating the term. It's unbelieveable.

Heif July 2nd, 2009 12:05:35 PM

Lis, We're just going to have to disagree since we've gone way, way off topic and neither one of us is going to be persuaded by the other.

PJBoosinger July 2nd, 2009 12:30:33 PM

Heif, Thank you for responding & explaining your program in your area. I do remember the "nurse lobby" & think it went out-of-hand, particularly if different initials are used and predicated by "animal" --I forget what the UK has for titles...Obviously, it is no big deal over there.

I've had a few discussions with dog people about vet tech degree & training and several have gone on to become veterinarians, and I can understand why---if you are legally able to do all but those 3 things. But that's an awful lot of theory to have proficiency at , not to mention experience , in a 2 yr. time frame.

Please DO NOT take this the wrong way: but I would be concerned with throwing a new graduate "to the wolves" , so to speak and expecting 98% confidence & competance. Human RN's have more focussed curriculum & training than "vet nurses"...doesn't seem quite balanced .

I have an ebay comment...on topic! When ebay was still new around 96 or so, I spied a live puppy being auctioned. Appalled, immediately I contacted the complaint dept. The auction was cancelled & removed. Shortly after, it became one of ebay's "rules"...no live animals---I suspect they were barraged with complaints.

Not to long after, the state PBS TV station did the same thing, contacted & complained, the auction was not withdrawn, but a promise was made to not do it again...something makes me think it did though, a few years later. Not sure.

Barbara A./NH July 2nd, 2009 04:26:02 PM

I can't afford 600-800 dollars to spay or neuter my pets. I'll be honest it didn't cost much more than that to get my self spayed. I am happy to see someone giving alternatives to the prices you have quoted. I live in Arkansas and I am lucky that I can afford the local prices and we have numerous programs that will help defray the cost if you qualify.

Glad to be Country July 9th, 2009 08:27:48 AM

Certainly not! Our City in Florida has developed low cost spay/neuter, very good care! I would not trust such a deal! Where would you get it done?

Sylvia July 9th, 2009 10:08:35 PM

Mixed feelings here, honestly.

I may be spoiled, but I have never spent more than $300 for a spay or a neuter (cats. I have not had a dog in many years, and I do not know what my parents pay to have their dogs altered.) $600-800 DOES seem very high, but I can see how it can get there.

The aspect of "offering it on eBay" is kind of creepy, but I think she is providing an excellent service, both in terms of trying to keep it affordable for those who normally cannot afford it, and in getting the word out on spay and neuter.

Jen M., Maryland