As a raw feeder for over a dozen years, it pains me to agree... but yes, in homes where immunocompromised adults and even healthy young children reside, there ARE reasons to either avoid feeding raw meats or at the very least take extra precautions. 

However, knowing the number of healthy individuals every year that contract all kinds of bacteria from their own foods, environment and even that fancy restaurant downtown, not to mention the problems inherent in handling feces of any species without proper hygiene, I'm not likely to change my stance on the cost vs. benefit of raw feeding.

Incidentally, the Winn Feline Foundation is currently funding a study regarding raw fed kittens - specifically the effects to the immune system.  While it will be some time before the results are available, the simple fact that someone is investigating raw food in an unbiased manner is a step in the right direction.  As more commercial raw companies are born and succeed, more funds will be available and more vested interests will continue to further the investigations into these methods.

I truly believe that in the long run the scientific and veterinary communities will come to agree with what many of us already know to be true - that raw feeding provides benefits that other methods do not, and that with care and consideration these benefits can be reaped without sacrificing safety.

Kim July 1st, 2009 11:50:38 AM

You mentioned "commercial" raw as the subject of a prior study.  How about home-made raw using human grade meats?  Has that been specifically studied?

Presumably, many of us already handle, say, raw chicken, when putting it in a baking pan to cook for ourselves.  Aren't we exposing ourselves them?  What is the difference if you are handling it more while preparing pet food, but it's the same chicken?

Also, how does a quick, surface boil (not cooking the meat all the way through, but the top 1/4 inch or so) affect or reduce salmonella present?

What about if you are talking about cats and not dogs, and you are scooping litter with gloves on?

In spite of all my questions, I still am not very worried.  9 cases in a whole study?  Did they all die? 

Stefani July 1st, 2009 12:57:46 PM

I was part of a program through Delta Society 5+ years ago (before I moved to my current city). We prohibited raw fed dogs from the group and knew about the pig ears thing. We ALSO did oral and fecal swabs on the dogs to boot looking specifically for salmonella and other zoonotic diseases. (We were visiting the oncology floor of the hospital.) On top of that, we had very rigorous hand-washing prior to and after interacting with patients; and dog-washing protocols. (I can elaborate if anyone wishes.) Ah, those were the days.... when my dogs were ridiculously clean all the time.

I also visited nursing homes and there were times that I bathed the dog after the visit! Sheez. I won't lie, I also Lysol'd the dog more than once, lol! I now know that bugs move pretty quickly through nursing homes, so it wasn't such a bad idea.

Deanna July 1st, 2009 01:21:00 PM

I've been having this discussion for weeks at work, although not related to dogs.  I work with a lot of food and, unless strict food safety protocols have been followed, it gets tossed.  Only food we can guarantee is safe (or as close as anyone can get these days) goes to food banks.  The argument is always, "Oh, but you don't do that at home, that's silly" or "I'm never that careful and I never get sick."  It's an endless stream of "Oh, but it's such a waste!"  Sure, maybe, but that cake decorator did the display wedding cake without gloves, with product that we hadn't followed strict refrigeration protocols with, and it had been sitting on a display table for two days.  Real safe once you start thinking about it, huh?  Or when I point out that in the kitchens where display food is prepped there are no meat thermometers.  It just get cooked until it looks nice.

I wish I could get folks to understand that it is not about what I'll feed myself.  It's about the risks I'm willing to take when feeding other people who I don't know.  I have a close, personal relationship with my own immune system.  The systems of the patrons of the food banks we donate to?  Not so much.  All three of my grandparents would qualify as slightly immunocompromised right now.  I would never dream of cooking for them the same way I cook for my healthy, 20-something self. 

I would hope that maybe if people start to understand food safety a little bit better that raw feeding would be more accepted.  Choices for individual households can be drastically different than choices where large groups of people are involved.

/food safety soapbox :D

Anne July 1st, 2009 02:19:39 PM

I wonder how the authors of the study connect the dots from salmonella maybe being in the feces, and how it would then get into a human's system - whether they're immuno-compromised or not? Ithought it was SOP to bathe and groom (nail trims, teethbrushing)any therapy animalthe day of the visit, and one would assume that the patients aren't grossly touching the dog's anus, so I don't see the transmission happening.

I don't feed raw, so it's not that I'm trying to defend or criticise the practice - just the actual value of studies such as this. And I do understand Anne's points about trying to be vigilant in food safety preparation and serving, but I still don't see a smoking gun to link raw feeding to salmonella in people who aren't preparing that food.

And even in the case of people who do prepare the food - wouldn't the transmission of salmonellahappen much more on the preparation end?  Zoo keepers work with raw meat all the time - and directly with the feces from animals fed raw food. Have any studies been done concerning transmission of salmonella in their ranks? I don't hear about zookeepers getting sick..... although I'm sure it sometimes happens - and could be traced back to the prep side, not the poop side.

KateH July 1st, 2009 03:10:19 PM

Stefani: I assume they did not die or else it would likely have been reported in the abstract. And no, the studies tend to be discussing commercial preparations--not raw homecooked fare. As to the other questions...I don't know the answers but it seems reasonable that it's been studied for humans. 

Dr. Patty Khuly July 1st, 2009 03:58:24 PM

Oh good grief.  The salmonella was in the poop people.  The *poop*.  There is no reason why any patient during therapy visits should be handling poop.  Period. 

Beyond the poop issues, SOP of washing humans and pets properly before visiting immune suppressed people is expected and appropriate.

This raw debate has reached the point that we were in years ago when people who wanted to have a baby were expected to dump their cat outside or "get rid of it".  Now we've finally accepted that you need to (big surprise) wash our hands, and if compromised either don't handle it, or use gloves/mask as appropriate for the situation.

Common sense is not so common anymore...and it's not there at all when professionals (vets) start to lose profit because we no longer by their substandard products (foods) for our pets to eat.

Wendy July 1st, 2009 04:50:36 PM

<<Common sense is not so common anymore...and it's not there at all when professionals (vets) start to lose profit because we no longer by their substandard products (foods) for our pets to eat.>>

there it is....the sad truth.

my son had stage 4 non hogkins lymphoma. He was on a horrific chemo regime. Not once did he get sick from the all cats we had, nor the dog.

He DID however get sick from the hospital, AND from the chemo...and once from an ingrown toenail,...but never did the pets play a roll....

as a former nurse, I can tell you truthfully that with a few exceptions, people would not be at risk from these animals and frankly many less obvious things pose more of a risk.

however, I'd love to hear that the pet food companies were feeling the pinch. Maybe then they'd improve their ethics a little

LorriM July 1st, 2009 05:45:40 PM

I feed the occaional raw and my 4 cats go crazy for it. But oh, every time I mentioned it to my vet (I moved a lot in the past 3 years, so I had several vets) they ALL told me it was the worst thing I could do, I would poison my cats and myself, salmonella, toxoplamosis etc pp. I fail to understand why there is a difference if you handle raw meat that you use for your own cooking but when you handle the same meat for your cats, it is dangerous. Well...I didn't tell them that I eat my steak blue, love tartare, like raw eggs in my soup and eat a ton of raw fish in the form of sashimi.

I am originally from Europe and vets there are not exactly in favor of feeding raw but at least they are not telling you that you or your cats are going to die if you handle raw meat. Maybe it is because people don't freak about raw food because people are used to eating it (like carpaccio, or German "Mett" which is raw ground pork with onions and spices and VERY popular and yummie). Their concern is mainly that people don't balance the food correctly.

So I am not talking about nutrition anymore when I talk to a vet here.

Georgia July 1st, 2009 05:49:29 PM

Frankly, I'm sick of both sides of the raw debate.

I'm sick of the raw evangelists and their snide little remarks about the so-called "species-inappropriateness" of other diets, and frequent refusal to admit that raw food could possibly pose any viable risk to any animal. (Full disclosure: I have an immunocompromised cat who became severely ill after nicking a commercially-prepared raw product one of my other cats was eating... and people STILL pressure me to feed him raw... hence the strong feelings.)

And I'm equally sick of the extremists on the opposing side. My two healthy cats ate it during the recalls sans incident, and while they weren't impressed, it gave us a safe alternative during those months when you really had no idea what was going to wind up getting blacklisted next Friday. They're still here. (One is busy chewing on my sock and informing me that dinner is (gasp!) three minutes late, the other is sitting in the window traumatizing squirrels.)

Too much absolutism in both camps.

I'm ecstatic that Winn is getting involved... finally someone's taking a somewhat impartial look into the matter!

Ramen Connoisseur July 1st, 2009 08:06:54 PM

For the sake of the person who is sick of the argument, I almost didn't reply.  :-)  But I would like to point out that there is a vast different between feeding your pets meat and bones (and, maybe, vegetables) and commercial raw.  The commercial product is usually loaded with all kinds of "supplements," including flax and various fruits that are high allergens.  By the way, II, too, have cancer: stage 3 ovarian:  I'm still feeding rawto 2 dogs and 3 cats and not getting sick.  Except from the chemo, of course.

Margot July 2nd, 2009 01:57:57 AM

I am quite immunocompromised and my mother died of AIDS complications in 1988.  I am also a firm believer in the detrimental effects of Clean House Syndrome.  I support raw feeding and here's why.

My mother had a lousy immune system and, as a single parent, was also inclined to keep our house virtually disinfected when I was a child.  Pretty easy for a single parent of a single female child.  (I think I've mentioned that she used to vacuum the cat.)  This significantly improved her health but kept me from being exposed to all the stuff I should have been, when I should have been.  I probably inherited the lousy immune system (or at least a predisposition for it) but the lack of exposure made things worse, I'm quite sure.  (For example, I have recurring bouts of EBV [and blood work to prove it] which used to be thought impossible.  Having recurring bouts of mild Mono is no fun at all!)  We now know that immunity declines over time, especially with a poor immune system, and needs to be boosted.  Grandparents living in facilities simply don't get "boosts" they used to get from extended families.  Once an immune system declines to a certain point, there isn't really that much to be done for it except live in more protected environments.

Feeding raw to pets keeps their immune systems appropriately active.  It also does that for the humans they live with AND, if one of those people has a malfunctioning immune system, it will likely show up earlier when it can be better managed.  We're all living in a more polluted world; all the more reason to have the healthiest immune systems possible.

There is far too much absolutism on both sides of this issue.  This also keeps everyone from understanding that those of you with really good immune systems are effectively Typhoid Mary for those of us with compromised immune systems.  BTW, if you expose us, we then become Super Typhoid Mary because we can proliferate a disease much faster than average and I suspect we can produce super diseases much more quickly too.  It would behoove us all to recognize and deal with this.  I also advocate for phone/video visits when possible because someone like me sitting in a doctor or vet's waiting room, being in contact with multiple staff with GREAT immune systems isn't good for me and, if you have me in and out of your office regularly, it might not be so good for you and your staff either :)  With PayPal and electronic banking, there's really no reason a professional can't charge for a phone/video visit as was done for phone visits way back when although these wouldn't be appropriate for all circumstances.  And why exactly hasn't some smart vet opened a clinic to cater to the immunocompromised???

PJBoosinger July 2nd, 2009 04:20:05 AM

I like Christie Keith's post on this subject. When at a veterinary conference, she listened to a speaker condemn raw feeding because of the dangers of feeding/handling raw meat. She wrote:

"So I was somewhat amused when I went to the Western Veterinary Conference in February and heard one of the conference speakers, who worked for one of the big pet food companies, address her fellow veterinarians on the subject of raw diets.She wasn't really against them, she said, [...] except for the fact that they're dangerous.

[I}f I were a veterinarian with no experience feeding raw diets who knew only what the pet food companies had taught me in vet school - I'd have been quite horrified to learn that raw meat is so completely filthy and contaminated that it's literally impossible to safely handle it in a home kitchen.

In fact, this vet said that even when you wash the dishes used to prepare your dog's raw dinner in a dishwasher set on sanitize, even if you wash them in bleach and hot, soapy water, they still have measurable levels of bacterial contamination on them after washing. Even the glass or stainless steel dishes.

So I was listening to this, and watching the hundreds of vets in attendance nodding their heads and taking notes, and I wanted to stand up and say, "Does the dish somehow know that raw meat is destined for my dog's stomach and not my oven? Because what about the bowl I used to mix my meatloaf? What about whipping up eggs in a bowl before I scramble them? What about marinating chicken breasts? How am I supposed to make my own dinner, if what you're saying is true?"

And then I thought a little more, and wanted to additionally ask, "If this is true, then tell me, oh room full of veterinarians: Why aren't you all getting up out of your folding chairs and marching down the hall to the large animal veterinary seminars and asking your colleagues in agriculture exactly why this nation's meat supply is full of feces?"

***

To me, that pretty much sums up the questions we SHOULD be asking.

Here's the link: http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/07/02/poop-in-food/

Gina Spadafori July 2nd, 2009 09:16:59 AM

Christie's brilliant, as always. Her insider-outsider perspective is always so refreshingly honest. Talk about someone who loves to point out the elephants in our rooms. 

Dr. Patty Khuly July 2nd, 2009 11:24:21 AM

...do dogs shed feces onto people and surfaces and everything they come into contact with all throughout the day?

It seems to me that protecting immunocompromised people from Salmonella shed in dogs' feces would simply require that someone else handle bathing and scooping poop (or be extremely cautious about it themselves), and that the immunocompromised people wash their hands after being in contact with the dogs. I mean, except for two years old who put everything into their mouths, doesn't everyone wash their hands thoroughly after being in contact with poop or even the possibility that they were in contact with poop? Aren't immunocompromised people aready taking extra care with cleanliness?

There seems to be a lot of hysteria about zoonotic diseases being transmitted by animals, even when there are no or extremely few actual documented cases of people getting sick. Conversely, there's a lack of corresponding hysteria for all the other, much more common avenues of transmission. I mean, I fully appreciate that there are risks and it is possible to catch diseases from your animals, but for all the panic and excessive precautions people take when it comes to animals, it seems like it's much, much more likely to get sick from your own food - like an unwashed piece of lettuce. Yet people are much, much less concerned about safety in these areas. (I never understood the cats-pregnancy-toxoplasmosis panic - surely, pregant or not, no one is licking their hands after scooping the litter box, so why the excessive worry?)

We definitely should weigh the risks and benefits of any course of action and choose what makes the most sense for us, but it seems that people tend to do so without proper context. Rather thank being fully informed, risks get assessed more on how much bad PR or panic-inducing media coverage or manipulative advertising messages people are exposed to, than on common sense and other risk factors in the environment. When we make choices in a vacuum, without broader context, we're not making properly informed choices.

We also seem to be cultivating a culture where critical thinking and common sense are pretty rare, and most people lack the tools they need for good decision making & risk assessment, though that's a whole other issue.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com July 2nd, 2009 12:13:52 PM

Dr. K, you may be disappointed when/if they do those studies on direct transmission.  It's entirely possible the prevelance is much higher and it isn't being recognized and reported.  "Historically, coeliac disease was thought to be rare, with a prevalence of about 0.02%"  "A large multicentre study in the U.S. found a prevalence of 0.75% in not-at-risk groups"  "large proportion of coeliacs remain undiagnosed; this is due to many clinicians being unfamiliar with the condition"  I suspect many "rare" diseases aren't rare at all, merely rarely recognized, let alone diagnosed; these dieseases are still mostly orphaned though, orphaned by the medical professions.  Wouldn't it also be a shame to tell people that raw feeding is perfectly safe?  Where's the science to support that?

Anlina, I can't speak for others but my dogs lick themselves EVERYWHERE, they brush against me all the time, I reach down to pat or pet them, they sleep on my bed.  The concept of washing my hands after every time I touch them or something they've touched?  Yeah, not gonna happen.  "Aren't immunocompromised people already taking extra care with cleanliness?"  Yes, we do.  That also means we get less human contact, making our pets and our contact with them even more important to us.  And, generally, we have to put common sense, practical experience, and critical thinking to serious tests because there's darned little science for us to look to.  Being dismissive of us (it's so simply, someone else do the poop and wash your hands; sure, I need someone else's germs added to my house, that'll help) and using inflammatory terms like "hysteria". "panic", "excessive precautions", and "excessive worry", certainly shows your bias on this topic but doesn't show much common sense or critical thinking, IMO.

PJBoosinger July 2nd, 2009 01:24:25 PM

"Oh good grief. The salmonella was in the poop people. The *poop*. There is no reason why any patient during therapy visits should be handling poop. Period."  Really?  I was under the impression that some AAI programs involved learning to care for animals, which would include poop retrieval and disposal.  Silly me.

PJBoosinger July 2nd, 2009 01:34:30 PM

I'm not being dismissive of immunocompromised people - I'm questioning whether it is likely that immunocompromised people are actually going to be coming into contact with dog feces. I guess if you're the dog's primary care taker and you're not just having therapy sessions with someone else's dog, the answer is yes, you may come into contact with feces a fair bit.

Beyond my first paragraph I refer to attitudes and concerns that the general public displays toward disease transmission and zoonotic diseases - not specifically immunocompromised people.

And I do believe that "hysteria" and "panic" are the appropriate words for the current attitude towards germs in our society. Your average, healthy person does not need to disinfect and sterilize everything in sight and yet many, many people believe that is true and necessary. You need only look at people who spray down everything with anti-bacterial disinfectant, constantly slather their children in hand sanitizer, treat raw meat as though it leaves a trail of poison on everything it touches, rush to get rid of the cat as soon as there is a pregnancy in the house and generally treat the entire world as though it's crawling with filth and disease that is poised to strike them dead should they ever relax their vigilance. If you're healthy that is absolutely excessive and irrational, and is probably largely the result of too much advertising and scare-tactic media, and not enough education and thinking.

Of course you need to weight the risks and benefits of any choice you make with regards to your environment, and if you're immunocompromised then it's probably better to err on the side of caution. But in general, our cultural attitudes toward cleanliness are extremist, irrational and unhealthy.

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com July 2nd, 2009 03:06:12 PM

While I don't feed raw myself (yes I've tried it and it just didn't work out for my lifestyle) I have clients who do and I just keep that in mind when we see them. Wash hands before putting fingers into mouth. Our clinic as a whole does not support raw feeding partly because of the risk, partly because there just hasn't been enough researched into it yet.

Personally I'm fine with it and had it worked out better I'd probably still feed it. I do caution clients/others however that if they don't practice good food saftey already, if they have immunocompromized or kids in the house it might be better to stay away from it. Also, if they aren't willing to do some study into how it must be balanced then its not good either. A lot of clients just think they just toss their dog a bone and he'll be fine.

I would love a few good studies on raw diets to come out by the veterinary community so we can start making well informed decisions based on science, not just personal experimentation.

Kathy July 2nd, 2009 03:46:50 PM

What bothers me is these "professionals' spout how raw is bad due to contamination of bacteria and salmonella and completely ignore the dangers of commercial foods.  Time and time again there have been contaminated commercial foods, with bacteria and salmonella - and how many of these do we not hear about??

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/dry-pet-food-and-human-salmonella/

I wish they would stop vilifying raw as dangerous on face value and take an honest look at the entire food supply.

Connie July 2nd, 2009 03:52:19 PM

"Your average, healthy person does not need to disinfect and sterilize everything in sight and yet many, many people believe that is true and necessary."  On that we can agree (see my original post above).  However, we have an ever increasing percentage of our population who are not healthy.  They get villified and their concerns dismissed in the reverse flaming on this issue.

PJBoosinger July 3rd, 2009 02:22:31 AM

I know people who feed there service dogs raw and that seems to work out fine. It's not as if the dogs are going around pooping everywhere.

Keldrena July 3rd, 2009 06:23:59 AM

They seriously did a study to come to the conclusion raw meat has bacteria.. I could have told them that. I would assume dog feces has a lot of bacteria besides salmonella that could be bad for me - so I refrain from playing in it. Raw meat has bacteria ( along with almost everything else) I don't see too many people calling for me not make steaks on the weekend. My dogs ( and many others ) do fine despite of the fact raw meat has bacteria. I'm a wussy human so I have to wash my hands and clean the counters afterwards but I've always done that when I made dinner for myself so it's not a big deal. I probably wouldn't feed an immuno compromised animal raw, and if I had an immuno compromised child who I had trouble keeping out of the dogs poop I would probably refrain, otherwise go for it - I couldn't be happier with the results, and if you do it yourself it's cheaper the the good kibble. 

Bonnie August 4th, 2009 06:58:41 PM