Banfield is, as you said, the largest veterinary practice in the world. Large organizations do not turn on a dime, and for-profit organizations don't stop doing services for which people will pay them without a strong push and a lot of thought. I'm not shocked to find out they were doing crops and docks, and I'm not shocked that it took them a year from the AVMA statement to do it.

I'm delighted that it only took them a year. That means they started seriously thinking about and discussing this move, as soon as the AVMA statement came out.

Lis August 4th, 2009 09:49:52 AM

Now if Banfield would only stop hiring high school students with NO vet tech training or experience and calling them "pet nurses"  . . . and if they would only stop pressuring their staff to "sell sell sell" which includes over-vaccination, etc . . . and if they would only change the policies of their "wellness" plans which require people to keep paying the fees even after the pet is dead . . .

Stefani August 4th, 2009 10:00:24 AM

Do Vets have any thing similar to the human doctors Hippocratic Oath?

Robert Garnett August 4th, 2009 10:02:41 AM

I like natural ears and tails, and front dew claws are functional in my breed....so in a way I don't care about this debate other than my political views about interfering with private property (loaded topic LOL)......

but I do wonder when does cosmetic become necessary?  who defines that?

Rear dew claws for example, show up in working gun and herding breeds on a regular basis.  These are not attached toes, but flaps of skin with with a nail just waiting to hook the carpet or grass and peel the skin off that hind leg like a banana.  If a breeder, or a vet, takes them off at 3 days of age is it cosmetic?  or preventative?

Wendy August 4th, 2009 10:23:07 AM

The Veterinarian Oath, as adopted by AVMA.  Is it taken on graduating or actually sworn to at any time or is it just part and parcel of AVMA membership?

PJBoosinger August 4th, 2009 10:36:57 AM

I'm not surprised it took Banfield a year to banish these 2 items.  I am disappointed they stopped there.

I have never and would never declaw a cat; don't even know if dogs can be declawed but wouldn't do it if they can.  I'm curious about Dr. K's position on dewclaw removal too though.  (I searched and found discussions of dewclaws in the comments but not Dr. K's opinion on this one.)  My current dogs had their dewclaws removed by their breeders.  My first Lab didn't and, after an injury to a front dewclaw (she'd caught it on something and simply would not let it heal), proceeded to chew it off.  When she started to chew the other one, I had the vet remove it.

"testicular implants" Seriously?  "canine tooth planing"  Gonna have a hard time convincing me THAT doesn't lead to chronic pain! and "salivary duct transposition"  just sounds horrendous and I don't even know what it is!

PJBoosinger August 4th, 2009 10:58:47 AM

PJB and Robert: The oath specifies that we alleviate suffering. It does not have an "above all do no harm" mandate. It is taken upon graduation and is not "for sale" with AVMA membership (not that that's what you implied and, moreover, I like to limit my sarcasm before noon). 

Dr. Patty Khuly August 4th, 2009 11:05:01 AM

I actually wasn't trying to be sarcastic.  Sorry if it came across that way.  Some professions have to stand up and take an oath and some take it very seriously; others it's so informal one wonders if all the members even know it exists.  I know some lawyers who think "yeah, yeah, the oath, whatever" while I take our oath very seriously and have my official, judge signed copy sealed into the back of my diploma.

PJBoosinger August 4th, 2009 11:11:46 AM

On declawing: It's almost always undertaken as a cosmetic surgery...but it's not always. Therapeutic declawing is necessary for claw cancers, chronically ingrown nails (usually due to congenital conformational abnormalities) and other issues. There's also the issue of "I cannot keep this otherwise beloved animal indoors unless my husband's favorite chair isn't left alone" and the "my elderly father keeps getting scratched and his wounds are getting infected" or "my son has leukemia and the oncologist is asking that I get rid of our cats unless I declaw them."

We do have to face some of these latter issues––always uncomfortably for those of us who hate to declaw. It's also offered (by some veterinarians, not by me) that it's better to do it right with plenty of pain relief than to have your client run off to the nearest I'll-declaw-them-all kind of place where the standards for pain relief and other safety concessions are not there. 

For my part, I haven't had to declaw a patient in many months (a year?). But I'll still do it in some cases with a good enough rationale attached and at least four modes of pain control included. 

Dr. Patty Khuly August 4th, 2009 11:14:06 AM

I always find this subject (cosmetic surgery) interesting.  I told my husband about one of the posts that mentioned neuticals, and he loves to joke about getting them for our male cat.  : ) 

Posey August 4th, 2009 11:48:27 AM

I may start offering neuticles for "enhancements". Put a pair of great dane sized neuticles into a chihuahua and watch him strut with enhanced self esteem    :)

Hobson August 4th, 2009 12:56:05 PM

I believe dew claws are often in the dog's best interest.  In the deep snow we would get often in PA and NY both of my big dogs would get cuts on the bottom side of their dewclaws.  Also, being that they are pale dogs with pink pads and tender skin, the winter was hard on their feet.  I tried to get them some dog boots but all the brands rubbed underneath their dewclaws.  I didn't have the ability to run them in a snow-free area, and it was better for them to be on the snow than on salted areas.

In fact, one person I met through a dog park function had the same problem and opted to try a dew claw removal as an adult.  Her vet thought it was the best option to prevent further injury.  Not only was it more uncomfortable than having the dewclaws removed as a pup, but the healing was extremely prolonged and required weeks of restricted activity.  The stitches would pull and the whole thing was a mess.

Otherwise, yes.  Get the breed clubs to forego docks (tail and ears) for show.  It would be about time.  Please, though, dewclaws can be a liability and, until I moved to a snow-free area, were the bane of my existence.  Perhaps you, living in Florida, have not run into the same issues in your clinic, but where I had lived dewclaws were a liability.

Jen August 4th, 2009 01:14:34 PM

I purposefully have a cocker spaniel with a tail.  The tail is beautiful healthy and full.  When he is in the brush it allows me to see him, waving high like a flag.  The field lines of spaniels leave on 2/3 tail so they can see their working dog in the brush.  Why then would a conformation dog need to have its tail docked?  It certainly isn't for field work as has been proven.  AKC get with it!  Other countries have figured it out.

Tammy August 4th, 2009 01:34:38 PM

I think tail docking has its uses, not for the breeds it's usually for, but for some spaniels and bassets, and other friendly hunting dogs. My basset-lab (called Simba) broke his tail (he was run over), then lost half of it,  damaged it further (he wagged it against a table leg) and then had the other half partially removed by a chicken (don't ask). I know a few other dogs who have had tail injuries, it's not fun for anyone involved. Having said that, it's usually done for cosmetic reasons which is foolish and selfish.

simba August 4th, 2009 01:41:03 PM

Having said that, it's usually done for cosmetic reasons which is foolish and selfish.

Indeed. Breed clubs are oh-so-concerned about dogs suffering from slipt tails or ear infections that they require cropping/docking, but I can think of lots of other physical conditions built into the breed standard that cause a lot more health concerns. I'm a lot less worried about an English bulldog suffering from "happy tail" than I am about brachycephalic syndrome, C-sections, or lip/nasal/tail fold pyodermas...

As far as the veterinary oath goes, we recited it once upon entering vet school, and will do it again offically during graduation.

Megan August 4th, 2009 01:58:26 PM

Ah, Tammy, I'm envious!  Our cocker came from a rescue at 8 months old, with tail already docked.  We'd be happy to have a cocker with a tail.

Interesting to see Banfield making this change.

Galadriel August 4th, 2009 02:00:57 PM

"Surgical procedures that carry medical risks and the possibility of significant pain should be exclusively confined to the therapeutic arena, animal welfare advocates vociferously contend." Which is one of many reasons my young male cur-dog still has his balls. Wait a minute... are these the same "animal welfare advocates" vociferously promoting mandatory spay/neuter legislation? Because that would be the most ironic thing ever.

Luisa August 4th, 2009 02:26:18 PM

I show in AKC, and occasionally breed a litter.  I chose a breed with natural prick ears (yes, I like the look) which does not require docking or cropping.  It is something I do not WANT to do, but do not deny to fanciers of other breeds where they do require it via the breed standard.

Dew claws in my breed are removed on 3 day old pups.    I know many breeders who do it themselves but I do take my pups to my vet for this.  A pup does sqeak, more so that it was disturbed from it's nap than the removal itself, and instantly snuggles back in with his/her sibblings and goes back to sleep.  I do not find it offensive and I do believe done at this age it is 99.9% painless.  I do not want anyone telling me I cannot do this to my pups.  Would you rather see a dog bleed to death from ripping one off?  How about the poor dog that has to have one removed at an older age, when the pain would be horrendous?

Holly August 4th, 2009 03:06:00 PM

I perceive a problem with "fanciers" vs. "lovers" of pets.

I guess the lady I just heard about who gave her cat up because it's coat didn't match her new furniture "fancied" the cat that went with old furniture, but no longer er, uh, "fancied" it when it didn't go with the decor.

Stefani August 4th, 2009 03:15:49 PM

Cosmetic surgery for animals... wow, never thought of it, but it is spooky.

Chickens with breast implants,  cats with pierced nipples, pot bellied pigs with belly button rings, and ducks with nose jobs.

Look at all the potential revenue you are passing up. 

If you deny animals the right to improve their bodies, then they should have the right to wear clothes to cover up the parts they are embarrased about.  Vets could offer fashion classes and/or makeovers.  Teach the elephant that white hose will make her legs look fat. And that a turtle neck will visually shorten the neck of the giraffe. 

Because of religious taboos the sheep should not wear linen.

Not even to mention that nanny goat that is trapped in the body of a billy.  Think of the dough involved in gender reassignment surgery.

I can hardly believe that I will actually push the Submit button...

Bob Jones August 4th, 2009 03:41:47 PM

Stefani, there's no distinction:  "Fanciers" and "The Fancy" are just a dopey old-fashioned words for those of us who love our pets and also show them.

My dogs are my well-loved family members 99.9999999 percent of their lifes. The remainder: They're show dogs who are also well-loved family members.

That said, I would never personally crop, dock or demove dewclaws on a dog. Nor would I recommend it. These are purely cosmetic procedures, and of no benefit to the animal.

Those who say they're docking tails and removing declaws to prevent injury, I say two two things:

1) Great idea! You know, if you have your eyes surgically removed, you'll never poke them out! My dogs have cut open their pads in the field a few times, but I'm not getting their paws cut off to prevent that from happening again

2) All kinds of hard-working hunting dogs keep ALL tails and dewclaws and never have them injured in their lives. Lots of show dogs who NEVER see a field have them removed.

In other words, it's just a lot of hooey from the world of dog shows. It the AKC and KC of the U.K. were really worried about the health of the dogs, they're quit giving top honors to dogs like the Pekingnese who won Crufts and had to sit on icebags during the photo session afterward to keep from terminally overheating.

Gina Spadafori August 4th, 2009 04:04:53 PM

Holly, there was a famous study perfomed in human infants undergoing surgery back in the 80s. Many doctors back then believed, as you do, that infants only two or three days old do not feel pain as acutely as adults and therefore do not need pain medications. The study looked at one particular procedure done on these infants, and found that the mortality rate was about 25 to 30%. Then the study continued with the exact same protocols except they added pain managment (fentanyl). The mortality rate dropped to 5%.

The conclusion was that for decades they had been performing these procedures, and a quarter of babies were dying of untreated pain.

It is now well established in both human and veterinary medicine that even day-old animals and infants feel pain, and that the pain can be severe enough to literaly kill.However, they lack the capacity to show the pain using the same expressions that we recognizein older animals (even animals only a few weeks older).You are wrong to believe it is 99.9% painless, and wrong not to be offended. These young pups are feeling the pain of having digits amputated by crushing, without the benefit of analgesics, and are simply biologicaly unable to express pain using theclear behaviors we adults are used to seeing. If you insist on having the procedures done, for the love of humanity, recognize that it is intensely painful to have a digit amputated, and give the poor pups some analgesics.

Marc August 4th, 2009 04:33:56 PM

I still haven't got any information (sarcasm, but no info, thanks) regarding rear dewclaw removal. In this breed they are true vestigial - with no bone, only a flap of skin dangling.  When they hang up, and on a working Border Collie it's not if, it's when, they rip from the dew all the way to the hock or higher.  The recovery is very painful.

Front dewclews are different because they are functional toes.  Rear dews on a breed like the Great Pry are real toes.

So are they cosmetic (the boneless rear dews) or safety removals? - and who gets to make that decision?

I find it interesting that many of you get seriously offended when govermental bodies tell you that you have to...cut our your dogs ovaries....yet it's ok to tell you that you *can't* humanely dock the same dogs tail. 

Wendy August 4th, 2009 05:00:16 PM

Wendy and Holly: Let me respond to your issue. It's true that dewclaw removal is considered therapeutic by some--just as you do. Today there are at least just as many––more and more every day–– that consider it unnecessary. I've seen it argued well in both directions but, personally, I side with Marc and Gina on this one:

Dewclaw removal IS painful (I use nerve blocks to preempt the pain, as these are very safe), but most of my breeder clients balk when I tack on the extra $15(!) for pain relief. Honestly, the pushback I get on pain control for babies is astounding. And it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies when it comes to working with breeders who remove dewclaws.

Nonetheless, as someone who deals in dewclaw fractures on a regular basis (we may not have snow but we have lots of brush in South Florida), I also see the other side. However, 99% of these are almost certainly the direct result of overlong dewclaws. 

Is it cosmetic or is it preventative? If the mode of prevention is more onerous than the disease itself, I would argue that it's cosmetic.

Because I'm in a profession that trades in science, I would like to see at least one study that points to dewclaw removal as a legitimate, therapeutically indicated measure that's worth the pain and potential complications afforded by early removal before I'll back it. My two cents.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 4th, 2009 05:20:51 PM

My breed has both natural and artificial bobbed tails.  Although I personally like a natural tail, I bought a puppy with a docked tail.  The breeder refused to consider not docking the tail partially for tradition and partially from seeing dogs with intact tails who actually worked for a living in western (American) brush.  Those dogs end up with so much debris and so many stickers, etc. in their tails that grooming is extraordinarily painful or with their tails matted to their britches.  Not a good situation for a working dog.

Although in the case of my puppy, the breeder knew the puppy would not be going to a working home, I still respect her thinking and RIGHT to determine what she feels is best for her animals.

kabbage August 4th, 2009 05:28:26 PM

Holly: On an earlier blog of this issue, I stated quite truthfully that my Sealyham pups screeched to high heaven when dew claws snipped, but hardly a whimper on the tail dock (at vet clinic). That said, all my Scotties have their dews for 30 yrs. with never a problem (knock on wood), however, not to long ago one of my Sealys ripped a rear outside toenail out--not a dew.

Jen: We have mountains of snow in NH, it seems more of an issue to remove the iced up snow between the pads than around the toenails, including my fairskinned whitecoats.

PJB: Did you ever think about the Veterinarians Oath? I never did before. Megan: You must have gotten a little background on it; do you think it deserves modification?

I note only one brief phrase that actually refers to "animals"---mostly it refers to benefits of humans. I find it ironic, but maybe that is me.

Veterinarian's Oath

 Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge.

I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.

I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

Barbara A. Blog: latest news on Teva animal pharmaceuticals

Barbara A. Albright/NH August 4th, 2009 05:54:30 PM

I have lived and worked in West Palm Beach and Scottsdale and I have seen and participated in a lot of cosmetic surgery.I think these people are crazy,but at least they are bringing the crazy onto themselves.I have a rescued Rottweiler that we got when he was three and I am embarrassed that someone might think that I had his tail docked myself.He also had his dewclaws done and I would never do that myself.As for snow,I currently live in Central NY(300 inches of snow last year)and our other two dogs have never had dewclaw problems in the snow.This discussion reminds me of the debate over circumcisions in the teaching hospital I worked at.

Susan H August 4th, 2009 05:55:12 PM

As Dr. K has written, the days are fading when a veterinarian did what the client wanted, no matter what.

I guess veterinarians have a RIGHT to say no to cosmetic surgery, or at least to cosmetic surgery done without pain meds. Or do you think the owner's wishes trump all?

Tradition is all this is about. For every part that's removed for "working" there's a working breed that does the same job with all those parts intact.

This isn't about "working" as much as it's about ribbons.

Show breeders take have taken perfectly useful dogs like the cocker spaniel, bred so much coat onto them for the show ring that the dog's more useful in picking up debris than a Swiffer -- and then argue "working dog" when defending a tail dock?

Be honest, at least with yourselves: These are cosmetic procedures. The extremely conservative, extremely anti-AR AVMA won't even back you up, and that should tell you something.

When you're going to cut something off an animal, there needs to be a compelling benefit. "Because we always have" and "Because we can't win in the show ring if we don't" just isn't that compelling to me.

Yes, that's why my breed isn't docked, cropped or de-declawed. Thank heavens for the most part our breeders haven't gone nuts with the coat, either. Most of our dogs can still work, and many of them still do.

Injuries, mats and burrs ... we deal with them when they happen, if they do at all.

Gina Spadafori August 4th, 2009 06:22:08 PM

Dr Patty, I thought I made msyelf perfectly clear that I was talking about REAR dew claws.  The benefits of the attached front dews are clearly documented and I leave those on.

Ime rears are removed with less drama than clipping back a broken tail nail. (less if you ask my dogs, they would prefer a nerve block for the nail). 

My dogs work for a living.  Does keeping my dogs legs safe from an established risk (the ripping of rear dew claws because of weak boneless attachment to the leg)  because the people in the world who play at canine work, or don't work dogs at all, don't find it "nice"?   Why does preventing  injury through amputation of an unused digit immediately become an assumption that I can't tell if  a puppy's in pain, or that I can't make an informed decision about treating it with a vet?  

Why is my "prevention" any different than tacking the stomach of a large dog that "might" bloat, or neutering a male dog because he "might" get testiculur cancer?

Wendy August 4th, 2009 06:37:11 PM

A friend of a friend breeds Aussies and she docks the pups tails herself. I know, I know. The procedure sounds horrendous (and that it's done at home even more horrendous) but my friend — who helped hold the pups for her — said that the pups were more upset by being turned upside down than they were by the actual docking. And, like another poster said, the pups got over it very quickly.

So, while I don't really see a need to dock tails for working dogs, I can't say I'm opposed to it. (Spritz a little Show Sheen in the tails and furnishings and burrs and brambles won't cling.) Ear-cropping: do away with that! Those poor things obviously are in post-crop pain. I don't know how I feel about Sheltie ear-tipping. Is that painful? If so, I see no reason.

About dewclaws.... I say get them off! At 3 days old, it's a quick snip and be done.

Gina said:

"My dogs have cut open their pads in the field a few times, but I'm not getting their paws cut off to prevent that from happening again"

I love a clever turn of a phrase as much as anyone, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Amputation of distal portion of a limb is pretty major and just plain silly (a dog couldn't exactly work without feet) while non-traumatically nipping off a potentially future offending piece of cartilage that serves no known purpose is very minor. Gina, aren't you the one who had a torsion-preventative stomach tack on your female when she was spayed? I see dewclaw removal as far less pain inducing and far less invasive than that procedure. So you obviously aren't as against all preventative procedures as you proclaim, nor are you opposed to pain-inducing, major procedures if you think it's in the best interest of your animal. (You know I love ya, and you know I love a good debate.)

Deanna August 4th, 2009 06:41:43 PM

"PJB: Did you ever think about the Veterinarians Oath?"  I'd read it and thought about it a bit.  Hadn't posted any questions about it since my thinking on it was about the time Dr. K asked us to keep our flames to every other week and I didn't want to start a flame war.  I really, really would like an opportunity to ask questions about it, how it's "felt" by the vets, what the professional debates surrounding it might be.  I had to take an oath at the beginning of law school/upon joining the bar as a student member and a different one upon becoming a member of the State bar association.  We're not required to be members of the ABA but I was way back when and I seem to recall an oath or promise that went with that membership.  Each profession has its associations and sets their own rules to some extent and it's difficult to tell what is promo and what is hard fact on their websites so I'm curious about the vet oath, especially not quite having wrapped myself around the details of AVMA yet.  Seems everyone takes the AVMA oath but they're not a mandatory membership organization?

I'm flailing a bit on the dewclaw issue; don't really understand many of the eluded to references but my Lab's front dewclaws dangled and drove her a bit nuts.  She hated them being touched, let alone clipped.  I got her at 15 months so suspected there was a history about those dewclaws that I didn't understand or that she just found them an annoyance.  When the second one was removed, it was while under anesthesia for something else ("spay" I think) and she left the bandage completely alone.  "healing was extremely prolonged and required weeks of restricted activity"  She didn't experience any of that.  It barely needed a bandaid size bandage.  Have a feeling I'll be checking out all the dewclaws now :)

PJBoosinger August 4th, 2009 06:55:23 PM

"Yes, that's why my breed isn't docked, cropped or de-declawed." (from Gina)

Buzz-uh??? Um, yes many (most? at least half?) of your breed are de-dewclawed. Lots of your breed that are hard-working field dogs. Maybe not on the left coast. :-)))) (I tease. I know your dogs are Cali-immigrants.) I'll fess up. I don't like trimming dew claws. I also think the leg looks a lot cleaner without a dewclaw. And as I noted above, I don't think it's that big of a deal to the pup. (Of course, I've never witnessed the procedure. If painkillers are necessary, I'm all for them and would pay for them.) Don't get me started on whisker trimming though. I refuse to trim whiskers. >ggg<

So to each their own. (Except ear-cropping.)

Kabbage: I have two words for the person whose reason for tail-docking is that she saw working dogs with debris and stickers work into mats close to the skin: Show Sheen. I actually use a product called Quicker Slicker because it smells better and dries faster. "The Stuff" is pretty much the same thing. (Don't try to justify tail-docking with the "stuff gets caught in it" excuse. Just say it like it is: it's for cosmetic reasons.)  

Deanna August 4th, 2009 07:05:33 PM

My dogs work for a living. Does keeping my dogs legs safefrom an established risk (the ripping of rear dew claws because of weak boneless attachment to the leg) because thepeople in the world who play at canine work, or don't work dogs at all,don't find it "nice"? Why does preventing injury throughamputation of an unused digitimmediately become an assumption that I can't tell if a puppy's in pain, or that I can't make an informed decision about treating it with a vet?

You've missed the point of something that was said earlier: No, you can't tell if a few-days-old puppy is in pain; they lack the ability to express pain the way even a dog just a few weeks old does.

It used to be assumed that human infants did not feel pain because they did not express it, and a variety of surgical procedures were routinely performed on infants without the "unnecessary" pain management drugs. And then a controlled study was done, and the babies that got pain management had a dramatically lower mortality rate. It's subsequently been demonstrated that the same is true of animals: pain management makes a huge difference, including in infant animals.

Why is my "prevention" any different than tacking the stomach of a large dog that "might" bloat, or neutering a male dog because he "might" get testiculur cancer?

They're not being performed for cosmetic reasons. And, despite your sneering above at "people in the world who play at canine work" who "don't find it 'nice'" (cropping, docking, and dewclaw removals), the fact is that most of these procedures are being performed on dogs who will never do anything you would regard as "real" canine work--they will be shown in conformation, compete in obedience, agility, or field trials, or they will, the vast majority of them, be "just pets".They're having their ears cropped and tails docked and dewclaws removed, solely for cosmetic reasons.

Lis August 4th, 2009 07:27:20 PM

You're right, Deanna, you love a good debate. :)

Yep, I had a gastropexy done on my dog while she was in for a spay. I also had it done when my older girl Heather had her spleen removed after we spotted a small mass on an ultrasound.  It was a "bonus" because they were in there already in both cases.

I think most people would agree that bloat is a more serious condition to attempt to prevent that a torn dewclaw.

I wonder if non-articulated dew claws really are more prone to injury. It seems logical, but ... is it true? And is it still true after you correct for those people who never trim the nail on the dewclaw?

As I wrote over on Pet Connection, you have to evaluate the pain with regard to the benefit -- to the pet, to the owner and to society at large.

But you can only make a fair evaluation when you're dealing with facts, not fancy.

Gina Spadafori August 4th, 2009 07:38:50 PM

Megan: You must have gotten a little background on it; do you think it deserves modification?

I know we had an afternoon of discussion during my first year of vet school about the oath and whether we thought it still fits for our generation of veterinarians. If I remember right, "conservation of animal resources" and "protection of public health" are relatively recent additions. It was a few years ago now, but I do remember that we felt the oath should include something about the human-animal bond, as recognizing and respecting that bond is a major part of veterinary medicine. Our discussion focused a lot on how fulfilling one part of the oath can put you in conflict with another part- i.e. it's better for public health to keep chickens in battery cages to decrease the incidence of salmonella-contaminated eggs, but is that in the best interest of animal health?

I attended the plenary session of the Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics this year, and the focus was about professionalism. One of the speakers made the arguement that the newest generation of veterinarians have no sense of what it means to be part of a profession. I'd agree that we really don't talk about professionalism and what sets a profession apart from a trade, and it wouldn't be hard to take the Veterinary Oath without ever really thinking about the meaning of it. I mean, I'd hope I and my classmates *do* think about it, but it isn't a large part of our education.

Megan August 4th, 2009 08:07:07 PM

Seems everyone takes the AVMA oath but they're not a mandatory membership organization?

Right- at least, that's how it works for my school. We all take the oath during our graduation ceremony, but you don't have to be a member of the AVMA. I've always thought of it as an oath of the profession rather than that of a professional organization.

Megan August 4th, 2009 08:12:26 PM

Lis: I don't think many will argue that animals, in general, regardless of age, will show pain & suffering as obviously as we would expect.

Sure maybe look unconfortable, maybe screech with an acute pain affliction...but most hide pain they feel extremely well, particularly if chronically diseased.

PJB: I don't think we have that same set of flamethrowers on the blog, either that, or they have become oddly silent &/or more used to controversial sharing of unpopular opinions?

Barb A./NH August 4th, 2009 08:12:47 PM

Megan: Maybe a good guest topic for Dolittler? Perhaps Dr. K will give it some thought as to differences in todays ethics/professionalism and as recent as her graduation?

 The hard earned title of doctor commands professionalism, but the bad apples, unfortunately leave one with thinking "trade".

USPS or federal employee oath: 

"I, ________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

Barb A./NH August 4th, 2009 08:32:24 PM

Wendy: To your point, the difference lies less in the cosmetic vs. therapeutic morass than in the fact that certain procedures have been scientifically evaluated with respect to their risk/benefit. This makes all the difference to me, whether we're talking about dewclaws, tail amputations, gastropexies or spays.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 4th, 2009 09:18:08 PM

AKC has already allowed dogs with uncropped ears to be shown..and they win. Also,my breed,English cockers, is one that is traditionally docked in the US. At a recent National, a dog with an undocked tail was "winners dog" (best non champion male).Docking a tail is no different than circumcision;it is a mere snip,hardly mutilating,  and causes little pain or psychic trauma (or so my brothers tell me).Sometimes,the tails are merely banded and the end falls off like an umbilical cord. To some,the dog's Chi may be interupted by docking .

Docking at three dayss beats amputation at 3 years.There are many owners and breeders of sporting dogs who are concerned about the risk of tail injury in the field.The cocker hunts in dense cover and a long tail can be a hazard. In English cockers,sometimes the tail can be beautiful and setter like, or curved over the back or worse,to me, kinked in the middle with the end hanging down like a limp noodle.There is no way to breed for a certain kind of tail.As mentioned, tails and dewclaws can be done at home altho many prefer that a vet do it .Altho one could argue who is best suited to to do this,if vets CAN'T ethically peform this procedure ,is that better? Fashion changes and if it becomes PC not to dock,it will fall by the wayside. But to make it "illegal" to me is silly.It should remain a choice.

Re: dewclaws, I wish my rescue dog had had her dewclaws removed; she has pulled and broken the same nail twice.Ugh.

I  don't think debarking should be lumped into the the same category as docking or even dew claw removal. This is major surgery requiring anesthesia. There are risks involved eg scarring.Altho to me it is not an appealing thing to do  the procedure does allow people with several dogs to be better,quiet neighbors.

 There are FAR more important things that responsible breeders need to be concerned with that are NOT cosmetic at all,eg temperament and hereditary problems that affect quality of life and lifespan. This is where good breeders pour their hearts and souls.This is FAR more important than a squabble over a snipped puppy dog tail. I also own a dachshund: a popular breed with a 25 % incidence of IVDD. TWENTY FIVE PER CENT! What about Cavalier KC spaniels that are ridiculously popular despite  their 50% chance of heart disease?

BTW,is it still considered OK to de claw cats,dehorn cattle and brand cattle?  How about more outrage about shelters that still use gas chambers or heart-sticksto euthanize dogs? I think priorities are askew here.

Grace's mom August 4th, 2009 09:59:47 PM

Docking a tail is no different than circumcision;it is a mere snip,hardly mutilating, and causes little pain or psychic trauma (or so my brothers tell me).

Funny you should cite circumcision. This is in fact one of the human surgical procedures performed on infants in which use of pain managment has been shown to dramatically decrease complications and adverse outcomes--to the point that pain relief is used in religious ceremonies as well as secular circumcisions. Not a good support for your argument, truly.

Sometimes,the tails are merely banded and the end falls off like an umbilical cord.

Anyone who thinks banding off the tail so that it dies and falls off is a humane procedure, or remotely equivalent to the umbilical cord (which is supposed to come off) falling off, is deeply confused.

BTW,is it still considered OK to de claw cats,

Been controversial for years, and fewer and fewer vets will do it as a routine procedure. Banfield has been criticized for this announcement from the other direction, that it doesn't go far enough because it doesn't include declawing of cats among the procedures they will no longer perform.

dehorn cattle and brand cattle?

There are many ways in which the welfare standards we apply to pets are not applied to livestock. But neither of these is cosmetic. Dehorning is done for human safety, and is not lacking in controversy. Branding is not about human vanity, but human property rights, is like docking and cropping entrenched in tradition--but freeze branding is gaining ground on the more traditional heat branding, for a variety of reasons but in part because it is believed to be less painful for the animals.

How about more outrage about shelters that still use gas chambers or heart-sticksto euthanize dogs? I think priorities are askew here.

I have plenty of outrage for those things--and I do believe they've been discussed here on Dolittler. In fact, I have a fair amount of outrage for all the convenience killing that goes on in shelters regardless of method, and the misuse of the word "euthanasia" to describe it.

I am capable of caring about more than one animal welfare issue. I don't have to not-care about shelter killings or inhumane methods of shelter killing or cattle castrations performed with no pain relief whatever, in ordor to care about ear cropping and tail docking in dogs. I can actually care about all of them, startling as you might find that idea.

Lis August 4th, 2009 11:46:13 PM

Of course, as a Banfield employee I had to comment on this one! :)

I'm THRILLED we, as a matter of corporate policy, are no longer performing tail docks and ear crops.  We didn't do that many to begin with, because our protocols required (and rightfully so) charges not only for the surgical procedures themselves but also for local anesthesia, pain injections/medication to go home, and appropriate bandaging/follow-up appointments...and few were willing to pay for those services.  Not that it's particularly relevant, but I've always found cropped ears (and docked tails, to a lesser extent) to be MUCH less attractive than what the pet came to Earth with.

Unfortunately, feline declaws are still offered, assuming the doctor is willing to perform it (and many, including one at my hospital, are not).  Our declaw protocol mandates pre-anesthetic labwork, full anesthesia w/monitoring, and pain control...although I'm not sure if ketoprofen and butorphanol are adequate based on pt behavior (and some doctors' opinons).  Banfield has also revised their client education handouts re: declaws, highlighting alternatives, procedure side effects, and asserting that declawing should be a matter of last resort when all other efforts have failed.  I'm still militantly against declawing about 99% of the time, but I do appreciate that their stance has changed.  We still remove dewclaws, but usually only the ones lacking bony attachment and only if the owner has been counseled on the procedure.

"Now if Banfield would only stop hiring high school students with NO vet tech training or experience and calling them "pet nurses" . . . and if they would only stop pressuring their staff to "sell sell sell" which includes over-vaccination, etc . . . and if they would only change the policies of their "wellness" plans which require people to keep paying the fees even after the pet is dead . . ."

Stefani, I understand where you're coming from regarding their hiring practices - LVT/RVT vs. OJT has been discussed multiple times on this board, so I won't get into that.  FWIW, the company has undergone significant changes in management - most notably, the exit of Dr. Scott Campbell, the company's founder.  As a result, the practice is slowly but surely shifting its protocols (obviously...see this post's title).  For example, the recommended vaccine protocol for dogs is as follows: distemper/parvo and rabies every 3 years (assuming the pet received puppy immunizations), leptospirosis annually, intranasal bordetella every six months, and giardia/lyme vaccination only where there is high risk of exposure or where the disease is endemic, respectively.  For cats, rabies and feline "distemper" are given every 3 years, and feline leukemia vaccine is given only to kittens in their first year and adults at risk of exposure (after testing negative).  Canine coronavirus is only recommended in puppies, and other feline vaccinations (FIP, giardia) are either not stocked or only given in exceptionally rare cases. 

This is hardly over-vaccination - in fact, it lines up pretty closely with most established guidelines.  And employees receive zero production benefit from the sale of vaccines. 

With regards to Wellness Plans, they are pre-paid packages of preventive care services - they allow established clients to purchase a year's worth of selected services (baseline bloodwork, regular fecal exams and deworming, vaccines when needed, annual dentistries, etc.) at a discounted rate with the option to finance those services monthly.  The ONLY way a client would end up paying "fees" after a pet has died is if the pet received services in excess of what the client had yet financed.  For example, a dog is hit and killed by a car two months after receiving a semi-annual physical, a complete dental prophylaxis with pre-anesthetic labwork, vaccinations, a fecal exam and deworming, and baseline annual urinalysis.  Because the owner had elected to finance their Wellness Plan, they've paid two months' worth of payments (approx. $60) for several hundred dollars' worth of services their pet already received.  If the dog had not yet received any of its annual services, the client would be credited back their payments and their contract canceled w/no further obligation.  Obviously it's horrible when any client's pet passes away, either from a suddent accident or chronic illness, but it doesn't entitle them to effectively skip out on their bill. 

FWIW, I'm NOT trying to sell anybody who reads this a Wellness Plan (it's not like any of my pets are on them!).  And I've got no problem calling Banfield out where it sucks (declawing, contracts w/pharmaceutical companies that limit the drugs available for our doctors to prescribe, employee compensation, etc.).  But I do feel the need to speak up when the Banfield-bashing is so misinformed!

anna August 5th, 2009 12:31:32 AM

Barb, I agree that animals tend to hide their pain quite well.  Took years but I finally realized the moment an animal "owned" me was when they were willing to show their pain to me.  Makes sense too.  Showing pain/vulnerability is at least counter-productive (social group avoids you, you're no fun) to down right dangerous (attack the weak).  It's the same for humans.  We've gone so far as to socialize segregating the infirm in the name of protection but often to the opposite effect.

Don't know about the others from that previous blog period but I'm trying not to "take the bait".  Not very successfully at times but still trying :)  Still, I know I generally write with the terseness of a litigator...  (Was PJB trying to offend?  Was that a shot at me?  If you didn't know immediately in the affirmative, the answer is no; just the nature of my terse style.)

I recognize that oath!  Same one I took for all 3 of my federal jobs.  Wish they still taught Civics in Jr. High/Middle School or had some kind of citizenship class to learn what an oath should mean, what underlies an oath like that.  We natural born citizens seem to be the worst in citizenship.

PJBoosinger August 5th, 2009 01:56:24 AM

This is hardly over-vaccination - in fact, it lines up pretty closely with most established guidelines.

The 2006 AAHA vaccination guidelines are currently the most thorough and evidence-based source on canine vaccines. I'd say that including lepto annually doesn't line up with the AAHA guidelines- the risk of vaccine reactions is relatively high, especially with puppies and small breed dogs, there is no cross-protection between the serovars included in the vaccine and those not included, and the duration of immunity is quite short (we were taught that if you have a very high risk dog, they should be vaccinated every 6 months). The Giardia vaccine is on AAHA's "not recommended" group, as the vaccine won't prevent animals from getting infected with Giardia (although it can reduce shedding of the organisms during an infection).

Megan August 5th, 2009 07:24:09 AM

"BTW,is it still considered OK to de claw cats,dehorn cattle and brand cattle? How about more outrage about shelters that still use gas chambers or heart-sticksto euthanize dogs? I think priorities are askew here."

Grace's mom: I've had my say on all these issues here. I don't believe that cosmetic surgery deserves any less attention just because it's not as morally outrageous as heart stick euthanasia on awake patients. If that were the case I'd be authoring a one-issue blog.  

Dr. Patty Khuly August 5th, 2009 07:50:36 AM

I will reiterate my position -- I will always want the dewclaws off on any working dog I have. If it's not done in puppyhood, I'll end up having them removed when they get torn off in the field.  I'd prefer the former, since that's not done at an emergency vet's office under duress.  =7  Pretty darn simple.

Again, I'll never defend cosmetic surgery when it is purely cosmetic.  Most dogs aren't working dogs anymore, so there is no reason at all that dewclaw removal, docks, or ear trims should be performed on the vast majority of dogdom.  But for my working dogs, I like to have the option to have the dewclaws removed early on.  If/when I have dog that's just a pet, I won't bother.

Julie in OH August 5th, 2009 08:19:12 AM

I'll reiterate and clarify my position as well.

Non-bone attached rear dewclaws in active breeds such as mine (Border Collies and Aussies) are dangerous and can result in signficant injury and pain.  The same dogs, if put to pet homes, have equal risk of injury though the infection risk will probably be less due to the environment. ( Dogs that tear rear dews on clean carpet versus dogs that tear rear dews in the dirt of a pasture, barnyard, or swamp.)

In over 20 years with these breeds I can tell you with assurance that 100% of those I've worked with who has rear dewclaws were injured because of them at one point or another during their lives. 

The removal of rear dews is relatively painless when done young by an educated vet or breeder.  I've seen puppies hurt worse, with far more significant complications, from being smashed into the box wall by a careless dam.  Perhaps Banfield should ban them? 

You can tell if a puppy is in pain, even at 3 days.  The number one way is that puppies that hurt or are in distress (emotionally or physically) do not nurse as well, lose or do not gain weight, 

~~~~~~

There seems to be a lot of justification and rationalization here when it comes to who has the "right" to do these things to their dogs.   What is one mans preventative medicine or even personal choice , the other man says things like "get a different breed" and "you shouldn't like that". 

Better yet, some of you goes as far to laud as acceptable that your breed(s) common required surguires (like stomach tacking) are acceptable because the vet says they prevent problems. 

Seems a little one sided to me.  I personally think that breeding animals prone to requiring prevenative surgery by design should weigh far more on a breeder's conscience than removing an unused appendage to prevent injury later...or even having an ear trimmed for a cosmetic look.

But that's me, and that's why imo we should learn to leave each other alone and support reasonable compromises within each breed and breeder's choices.

If the tables were turned  - how would you defend yourself?  Nope, the tables are turned...the vet says he's not going to operate on your dog it *might* bloat.  He refused to neuter your male dog because it *might* get testicular cancer.  He says the percentages of chance are low, and surgury is an uncessary risk that causes potentially unecessary pain to the dog.

Makes you mad doesn't it?

Food for thought....

Wendy August 5th, 2009 11:48:51 AM

Megan, as some one who is also concerned with brachycephalic syndrome, fold-pyoderma and reproductive difficulties in english bulldogs, I just wanted to let you know that currently "happy tail" is a non-issue. EB tails are not docked. Like frencies and bostons, they are born with short crooked or short straight tails, some long enough to reach the hock and are never supposed to be docked.

 Serious prefer the longer straighter tails as they are associated with fewer health issues and less difficulty breeding and whelping than the very short crooked tail. After virtually disappearing,  the straight "spike tails have been making a welcome resurgence this side of the pond. :-) 

JenniferJ August 5th, 2009 01:13:24 PM

Megan - I only said that it lines up pretty closely with established guidelines, not that it follows them. ;)

I have seen a few positive leptospirosis titers since I've been working in clinics, although titers may be far enough down the line of differential diagnostics that they aren't done very much.  In two cases, the sick dogs either lived on a farm or a rural acreage, so one could argue their potential for exposure was fairly high and the vaccine would have been beneficial.  I know lepto vaccination is pretty controversial (what isn't?), and some of our doctors frequently leave it out for breeds that are high-risk for reaction.  I think one of the reasons Banfield has decided to include it, despite the vaccine drawbacks (we use Ft. Dodge's 4-way, although I am aware of the different serovars and the lack of cross-protection) is because the disease can cause some pretty serious damage and because of its zoonotic potential.

With regards to giardia, we have a ton of Snap tests come up positive in dogs with GI symptoms (and occasionally, outdoor cats).  We educate the clients on the limitations of the vaccine and the disease's treatment, and we usually end up administering it to those pets who have been previously infected (where we know there is risk of re-infection), who are considered higher-risk (i.e., lots of time spent swimming in the lake), or who live in households with children or elderly individuals (where the reduction of zoonotic potential is especially needed).  The 25-dose tray in our fridge has lasted several month now...

FWIW, our doctors are obviously aware of the different guidelines in place and the pros/cons of each vaccine, as are the staff (myself included).  I've spent plenty of time reviewing AAHA and AAFP guidelines, and they do factor into vaccine discussions with owners, along with Banfield's few differences and the reasoning behind them.  Then the owner can make an informed decision. :)

anna August 5th, 2009 03:43:27 PM

Jennife J: It's still the case, however, that plenty of bulldog owners (at least in my 'hood) want their longer tails docked. I have to work hard to convince them otherwise before breaking the news that I won't cut them. :-(

Wendy: I understand where you're coming from and, for the record, I still remove dewclaws. But I wouldn't limit any veterinarian's right to refuse it. As for making it illegal, I don't think most welfarists lump fleshy rear dewk removal in with declaws and ear crops. That's just asinine.

What Gina and others react to (myself included) is not only that pain relief is necessary for early (three day-old) dewclaw removal (with the exception of unattached dewclaw snips where the local anesthetic would be more stressful than sharp scissors and glue), but that breeds who work are sometimes required to keep dewks and sometimes they're not. It just seems arbitrary. The arbitrariness related to these breed standards is what leads many of us to believe that this is more often done for breed standards than for the prevention of injury.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 5th, 2009 04:20:20 PM

I know! Total face palm moments for me.  :-P

My biggest disappointment with my last litter were short tails, dammit.  Then the BYB walks in complaining to my vet about the long tail on their puppy.

Education education education.

And liquor. XD

JenniferJ August 5th, 2009 04:44:34 PM

JenniferJ: Yes, I wish the three bulldogs that live in my apartment building all had longer or naturally short tails, but they've all been docked :( I don't mean to just pick on bulldog breeders- it's just the hypocracy of breeding in traits that are detrimental to health while at the same time performing cosmetic procedures to potentially enhance health (i.e. prevent ear infections or split tails) that gets me.

anna- I just feel like the lepto vaccine should be reserved for high-risk dogs and, if given, should be given every 6 months to really provide adequate immunity.

Megan August 5th, 2009 07:20:23 PM

If they have all been docked, chances are they're olde english buldogges or victorian or one of the designer versions. Or a mix bred for bigger litter size. If they are docked, it's a hall mark of puppy mill breeding wherein they want them to "look" like what the public thinks is right. Grrrr. Dewclaws are NOT to be removed so bulldogs without dewclaws are generally from puppymills as well where everything gets it done to seem more "legit".  The vast majority of EBs have tails under three inches, not even enough to dock even at birth. Even with all the pet store and puppy mill bullies we see in rescue, docked dogs almost always have something else in the mix. If they are healthy and came from a reputable source, then I don't care if they are mixed but that's just not the normal scenario. Boxer and pug mixes are popular but generally disastrous for health (pugs self explainatory, boxers because both breeds share the same genes for some heart defects and also a predisposition to CCL rupture). Tails are then docked to make them look pure bred.

I have a boxer/eb cross here now that I am fostering. Sweet sweet dog, bad rear end. Docked tail. Originally sold as a purebred bulldog with Continental Kennel Club papers. My other foster is a russian import who I'd bet dollars to doughnuts is about 1/4 frencie. 

Currently with popularity still at dangerously high levels, the number of bulldogs being bred with no regard for health testing, temperament etc... far out numbers the breeders who have been pursuing more athletic, easier to raise and live with dogs. Can-not-wait until the public moves on though I don't wish it on any breed.

Can we bring back pet rocks?

JenniferJ August 5th, 2009 08:18:33 PM

Better yet, some of you goes as far to laud as acceptable that yourbreed(s) common required surguires (like stomach tacking) are acceptable because the vet says they prevent problems.

To me, dewclaw removal on my working dogs, while not required in the breed standard, is just plain good sense.  This comes from experience, not from a vet telling me whether it'll prevent problems.

Seems a little one sided to me. I personally think that breeding animals prone to requiring prevenative surgery by design should weigh far more on a breeder's conscience than removing an unused appendage to prevent injury later...or even having an ear trimmed for a cosmetic look.

HEAR HEAR!  If the dog can't do what it was bred to do, then why not get a mutt?  I know it is pretty common where the working lines diverge from conformation lines, and while both lines have their issues, it pains me greatly when I see a show champion that is completely incapable of doing its traditional job.  And I include "unobstructed breathing" as a qualification for being capable of working.  =7

Julie in OH August 5th, 2009 09:32:55 PM

While I've no desire to bait bulls or any other animal with my dogs, I will not breed from any dog who has an obstructed airway or underdeveloped trachea. Making upper airway noise or showing signs of abnormal breathing is a quick way to get an appointment at my vets bi-monthly s/n clinic. Same goes for eyes, skin, knees etc...

Over the past two decades, that has meant washing out dogs I was very attached to, including three champions who ultimately did not pass one screening test or another. Some have lived out their lives with me as just great pets. Others went on to full time couch duties elsewhere

Most of the airway can be assessed via observation. Tracheas can be x-rayed to determine normalcy. OFA is currently finishing a study that will hopefully lead to a full fledged trachea registry soon for breeds in which this could be a concern

Assuming that I have not personally seen or heard any issues with a dogs airway, they get a thorough once over by a vet while they are out for PennHIP and the upper airway can be visualized.

The pay off is active, fit dogs, and that when we have weeks of triple digit days here, i do nothing extra for the bulldogs than for my terriers. And no one snores except my husband. :)

like many breeds of dogs today, my dogs' primary job is companionship. Healthy dogs make good companions. Getting the pet owning public to become more discerning and patient about whom they acquire a purebred or purpose bred dog from, now that's the brass ring.

JenniferJ August 5th, 2009 11:29:03 PM

"Can we bring back pet rocks?"

Pet rocks are not without their health problems. Rutherford kept me company on a long trip to the Antarctic, which was all well and good except that he had a bladder problem, so perhaps being aboard a ship was not a good environment for him.

Whenever we were strolling the deck, the pair of us looking particularly dapper, I in my uniform and Rutherford in his faux rhinstone collar and matching leash, if I were to introduce him to someone, he would wet upon the individual due to the excitement.

It was such a trauma that one night I returned to my room to find Rutherford had attempted suicide by hanging. Fortunately, even he could not find his neck.

It was such a problem that Rutherford nearly got me court marshalled when he peed upon the captains arm. During my next review, the captain suggested that I get rid of Rutherford.

As heartbreaking as it was, I gave it to a young lady I met in our home port, only to discover she was the captains daughter.

When the captain railed "Mr. Jones, your rock DiD IT AGAIN!" All I could respond was, "No sir, I got rid of MY rock."

I was later told that his name was changed to Rutherfreid since a pile of pebbles next to him had convinced the new owner of her female gender. Since she had been at sea for two years I am not sure where she might have gotten pregnant, however, I guess you should keep pet rocks away from sailors, just in case.

Bob Jones August 6th, 2009 08:38:00 AM

Bob: Maybe Rutherford's problem was really related to bladder stones.

Marc August 6th, 2009 09:03:35 AM

A few days ago I saw a cocker spaniel with her tail still intact swimming, she was using her tail like a rudder and was beautiful to see (the tail is pretty big compared to the size of the dog). Since this sort of dogs like water a lot it is possible that having a tail could actually be an advantage...

PS. declawing cats seems to be an all American problem, in Europe nobody will even think of soing such a  thing to a cat...it's banned everywhere.

stefafra August 6th, 2009 03:30:22 PM

I have had three Pembroke corgis.  None of them was particularly good with other dogs.

I have always wondered how much of that might have been due to their loss of their tails.  They are handicapped in their ability to communicate, and I wonder how much (and how often) that affects the way other dogs react to them......

I would never again pay retail for a mutilated dog (though I might adopt a rescue).

Dogs are *supposed* to have tails.

Vicki in MIchigan August 6th, 2009 05:04:22 PM

Vicki, I don't know your corgis. Growing up around hunter Jumper barns as a child, I did spend a great deal of time with pembroke corgis as they were popular barn dogs. The dogs all went to shows with their barns and in the evenings tended to run about in a group. Tfts, jrts, shelties, mutts and whippets  etc...and I can't remember there ever being serious conflicts.  Now that I'm living with a naturally short-tailed breed, and a traditionally docked breed, I have had a few who were not good with other dogs but most, including my current dogs, are very good with other dogs indeed.

But I also raise any dog I live with very differently now. They all learn, from day one, how to be part of a multi dog pack. Well supervised by humans of course. If I could go back twenty years I would change how I raised my dogs then, and I think we all would have been much much happier. I did not do enough to socialize my first dogs to other breeds, mixes, sizes and shapes, I was too protective. The bulldogs were only used to other bulldogs. Little, giant, furry, fluffy all were regarded as "not right".

I had always thought that the short tails caused them problems with meeting new dogs.  I know that tails are valuable communication tools,  but I have come to realize that to whatever extent it was an issue, it was minor compared to their basic lack of social skills. My current dogs get along well with other dogs, do well meeting new dogs of whatever size and shape and have been invaluable in teaching unsocialized rescues of various breeds (long and short tailed) how to be social, much happier dogs.

I  cannot speak to how anyone else posting here raises and socializes their animals, just relating my personal experiences with my own dogs, and my current dogs, who do get along well with and play well with a variety of other peoples dogs, most of whom have longer tails.

JenniferJ August 6th, 2009 07:33:24 PM

Coametic surgeries or surgeries of convience.  s/n wtih little or no medical benefit , even more risk than benefit,in some cases fall into yhe latter. So do cat declaws. Only diffreence is " I want  it to look like blah blah."  and  "  Fixed dogs are easier the deal with"  "Hes clawing up thr couch. " Maybe these people need stuffed animals as their real easy to deal with.  Bet Banfield hasnt quit declaws or s/n of questionable benefit. Crops and docks should be the owners choice as long as its done humanely. The humane organizations are hypocritical saying no to docks  and crops then trying to ram mandintory s/n down everyones throat. Especially the early ones which seem pretty well proven to cause some serious problems down the road. Have they quit doing those? Not. Doing one unnecessary procedure validates doing the other if  looking hypocritical.   They know whats best for us so we should do as they say like good little sheeple.

stan August 14th, 2009 11:54:15 PM

My russell terrier just had her 2nd litter of 6 healthy pups this morning :-) It broke my heart to have the first litter's tails docked. I will not do it with this litter, or ever again! I would like to not remove dew claws either, but I have heard it is actually in the best interest of the dog to do so. I welcome any comments on this. Thank you.

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