The only time I order vaccine is when I'm in the midst of multi-kitten rescue - otherwise, I don't have use for 25-dose trays.  My five cats and two dogs are all on extended vaccine schedules anyway, so we're talking a distemper or rabies vaccine about every three years, maybe the occasional bordetella if I know the dogs are going into a boarding situation, etc.  And honestly, vaccines are hardly at the top of my list when it comes to care...all of my pets are well beyond puppy/kittenhood, have had proper initial immunizations and appropriate boosters, and I personally think they're pretty much set for the rest of their lives as far as immunity goes (although I know DOI is a whole 'nother can of worms!). 

But there's a WORLD of difference between someone who has educated themselves enough so that they can select an appropriate combination of antigens ordered from an appropriate manufacturer and obtained through an appropriate distributer and someone who simply goes to a feed store and buys a "shot".  More often than not, when we have clients who have vaccinated a pet themselves, they don't know what they gave, can't quite remember when they gave it, are "pretty sure it went in", never gave any boosters (good thing or bad thing?), etc.  They almost certainly didn't pay attention to vaccine storage/handling, injection site location, etc.  They aren't familiar with the terms "adjuvants", "modified-live vs, killed", etc.  This doesn't mean that they are bad pet owners or that they don't love their pet, but they certainly aren't acting in their pet's best interest, and I have to admit I find it pretty irresponsible to recognize that you don't know what the hell you're doing but decide to try it anyway (on your pet!).  For example, I know absolutely NOTHING about cars.  Nothing.  And I don't care to.  Which means I pay someone else to, say, change my oil.  It'd be pretty silly of me to pop the hood, unscrew a cap, and pour oil into an opening and just cross my fingers and hope for the best. (I know some of you are probably shaking your head right now at the silly girl who doesn't know how to change her own oil.  It's cool.  I have the luxury of being a car dummy because I'm quite willing and able to simply agree to whatever the service center recommends, and if I get taken for a ride, so be it.)

At any rate, I can't think of many situations where the former type of client would actually find it very cost-effective to home-vaccinate anyway, assuming their pets are on an extended vaccine schedule too.  It's a hassle - many boarding facilities won't accept records of home vaccination as "proof of vaccination" (for good reason), and you're more likely than not to get a disapproving look from whomever is asking if your pets are current on vaccines.  You'll be in a crappy situation if you home-vaccinate and your pet has an anaphylactic reaction, you won't have a rabies tag, etc.  I'm all for saving wherever you can, because I truly believe every penny you save on something you do yourself is a penny that can go towards something you can't do yourself, but I'm not sure if home-vaccinating is worth the extra pennies.  If you're truly destitute, it's fairly easy to find low-cost vaccine options, either through humane-societies or clinic specials, etc.

anna August 27th, 2009 01:19:39 PM

I don't know if I'm being overly cautious. I've had pets while living in a developing country, where regulations are even less enforced and storage problems are gerater (the weather would burn your brain if you stayed more than 5 minutes under the sun). And I haven't had any problems with vaccines applied to my pets there. Still, I take my pets to the vet for vaccines here in the US. I'm afraid of spoiled vaccines and, also, to miss the right spot when applying it.

Daniela Caride

www.TheDailyTail.com

Daniela Caride August 27th, 2009 01:21:57 PM

My dogs are also on an extended schedule.  I do have a regular vet but times have been very difficult - as I am sure it has been for a lot of people.  I actually found that my local animal services was able to administer my needed 3 year rabies vaccines (x3 dogs) for $6 each and county tags were $15 each.  My dogs are young (2,2, and 3 yrs old) and healthy so wasn't too concerned about them missing out on their annual visit.  $63 was a lot easier to come up with right now and having to stay in compliance with the law. I also felt more comfortable with this option rather than a vaccine clinic at the feed store since it should be stored properly and they also have an immediate record of the vaccines.   I have ordered from mail order before but not for my dogs/cats.  It was the fowl pox vax for my chickens :) 

Tricia August 27th, 2009 02:27:54 PM

Well, I've administered my own vaccines before, ONCE, and only once. My dog developed a huge lump where the vaccine went in and scared me silly. I used to think "I can do this, what's the bigt deal", but not anymore. So now, I go to the vet or a low cost clinic (reputable one) and have them done. I have enough medical problems with my pets without creating more.

Sharon August 27th, 2009 03:15:05 PM

Sharon: In your case, the lump more than likely wasn't because you didn't know how to administer a vaccine properly––it was because of the product (always the bigger risk). I'd bet money on it. Glad you learned the relatively easy way. 

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 03:35:04 PM

Some have made the assumption that I have & do save a small fortune administering my own vaccines, after all don't most breeders?

Not so, my concern was not really the vaccine contents/viability (although it should be), but the patient-recipient. I make all vaccine appointments with the Veterinarian, want a full exam prior to, to insure the best possible conditions. I do not ask for the optional tech administered vaccine sans physical either.

Personally, as you said Dr. K., I want experience with location, product, and delivery. I don't have that experience and feel no need to practice on my own or someone elses pet.

One time, decades ago, I was instructed very carefully to give a penicillin followup dose (must have been timed for a Sunday or holiday) and did so, with great trepidation. I don't have diabetes, thank heavens!

ps. I did have two dogs with serious complications, and one with a minor one: persistent big lump

Barbara A. Albright/NH August 27th, 2009 03:58:14 PM

You say "veterinarians may have other reasons for urging you to eschew them" and not buy from Foster and Smith et al.

But I thought Drs. Foster and Smith WERE veterinarians.??????

They aren't urging us to eschew them, they are the vendor.  Are they not vets?

Stefani August 27th, 2009 04:24:19 PM

"Vet administered" vaccines are more reassuring in terms of chain of custody, etc. than anything you could order (never have done that, never will). Nonetheless, someone delivered it to the vet.  It may be a better bet but it's still no gurantee on chain of custody and control.  There are vets that have expired drugs in stock, etc. I'd be willng to bet some have expired or improperly maintained vaccine too.  And that's just the part they control.  If they aren't making it themselves (obviously not) then they don't have total control of the product.

I'm not suggesting it's a wash, I would never order vaccines myself nor would I ever recommend that anyone else do so. I used to work for a company that sent consultants to developing countries to teach community health workers about "cold chain technology" for maintaining vaccine products to be used in child immunization clinics.  Sadly, so many communities were administering ineffective vaccines to children because of improper temperatures of storage and also the vaccine trucks.  Tricky stuff.

Stefani August 27th, 2009 04:31:54 PM

Stefani. LOL. You can't possibly think Drs. Foster and Smith have more of a dedication to your individual pets than they do to their own enterprise, right? They've been proving they don't for decades now by cutting out the hometown vet in the vaccine process (that's an opinion, I should clarify, lest their lawyers come after me). Personally, I think they've done more to cheapen the image of veterinarians than anyone else in our industry (and that's a huge statement). I think I'll stop now before I get another 'cease and desist' letter. 

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 04:37:44 PM

Dr. K, there's a part of me that really, really wants to agree with you that your sources are more reliable but I simply can't.  I think your belief in that is going to come back to bite you one day.

I want to see the sourcing cleaned up and the easiest way to ensure fewer product problems is for the requirement of a script or "permission slip" to go away so we can all buy directly from the manufacturer or a major seller who is doing so within a system where there's no incentive for them to "gray" where they're getting the products from. And the inherent problem with any group being designated as "gatekeepers" is that they then have the incentive to do things they shouldn't (as with the vets who are currently buying in quantity for resale to mass marketers). There are still going to be counterfeits out there no matter what system is in place, at least there will be for so long as there is a profit to be made from counterfeiting. As to recalls, well that's a problem with the manufacturing and all the more reason to hold manufacturers accountable strictly, no getting off the hook no matter how someone came to have the product.

Personally, I'm probably never going to give vaccines because I'm a complete needle wimp.  I could and would use one in an emergency and I do have syringes in my emergency kit but, short of that emergency level of adrenaline, NOPE.  Nonetheless, I think it unfair to lump all non-vet sourced meds into a single "don't buy from them, they can't be trusted" category.  The feed store in the rural area where my farm is has a very reliable source of meds.  They make sure of it because the locals would literally hunt them down and beat them to death if something went wrong as they give vaccines to "profit" animals, not just pets.  I'd be more inclined to trust them than any urban source, including vets.  In addition, many of these secondarily sourced products are being obtained from veterinarians so clearly not all vets are entirely trustworthy either (or maybe they're just exercising a method of disapproving of silly restrictions).

While it might be "best" to give exams immediately followed by vaccines, it is damned inconvenient to drag 6 animals to the vet at the same time.  Much easier for me to take them in individually (or in pairs) for exams and then have a mobile vet "shoot them all up" at the same time.  I miss being able to do that and I miss having rural vets who do both in office and in field servicing.

No vet "certified" that the vaccine was administered but there's a receipt for the vaccine.  I'm sorry but the lack of vet certification alone won't get it with me.  We all have to keep records of all types of things (from employer reimbursed to tax receipts) and we should all probably do a better job of it but that doesn't make an individual's certification that they administered the vaccine inherently less credible, especially if they have a long history of doing it with proper documentation.

It is mind boggling to me that, in the land of "freedom", we have set up a massive and expanding system restricting access to basic medications while simultaneously making it impossible for a growing percentage of the population to access the gatekeepers of them.  I really have to wonder if this dog I've taken in would be heartworm positive if the previous owner could have bought preventative OTC.

PJBoosinger August 27th, 2009 04:48:21 PM

Doctors Foster and Smith are real veterinarians.  See here.  Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc. is a corporation.  For an extensive (albeit apparently self promotional) history, see here.  Obviously, they don't generally put hands on your animals when you order through their website.  I can't really see much difference between that and my local vet clinic which is incorporated for the majority of these products.  Many vets don't question refills from regular clients so there's no reason I shouldn't be able to get them for the lower price on this website.

I'm getting a bit confused on what Dr. K's underlying concern is on these closely related topics but it's starting to feel a bit like mere protectionism of the "local" vet rather than anything else.  "Buy from the vet, they're the only ones to be trusted."  I can't support that at all given the experiences I've had with some vets.  And I sincerely hope I'm merely reading that in from Dr. K's frustration expressions, that it isn't her actual intent.

PJBoosinger August 27th, 2009 05:05:34 PM

"think they've done more to cheapen the image of veterinarians than anyone else in our industry"  That's interesting because they're on my list of having helped restore my faith in veterinarians.  I've had occassion to email back and forth with their compounding pharmacy when my own vets were snooty, rude, and didn't know the answers.  F&S was helpful and informative.  Because I decided not to try what we were discussing, based mostly on F&S staff cautions which were quite to the contrary of a "sell it" mentality, and because my own snotty vets won't write scripts for the every day stuff, I never have used their pharmacy.  They make zero dollars from me in this area but it sure earns them good will from me to do what my own vets can't be bothered with - polite, informative, responsiveness.

Hey, I'm trying to maintain a positive perspective and give my newbie vet a chance but I'm already seeing some "stick up the ..." behavior that concerns me and makes it hard. :)

PJBoosinger August 27th, 2009 05:15:24 PM

<<it would be unfair to call me alarmist when I explain that the exact location of a vaccine can even make the difference between life and death.)>>

yeah...well...the truth is that it is the adjunct IN the vaccine that causes the cancer. Not the placement. The only possible good moving the placement gives you is a more amputatable region (like the tail) if the cancer does occur...

and truthfully...you are taking your fort dodge, merril. or whomever else supplier at THEIR word the vaccines were handled properly as well. Sure, handled correctly once they get to you, you can guarantee, but prior to that, you are still relying on someone else's word.

going to have to sit the other side of the fence on this one.

LorriM August 27th, 2009 05:18:55 PM

"more of a dedication to your individual pets than they do to their own enterprise"  Well, clearly we're both "in a mood" today so I'll challenge that statement too.  AND MY OWN VETS  OR VETS IN GENERAL DO????  You must be kidding!  And you make this statement shortly after announcing that you're cutting back your own practice to 3 days a week in favor or writing fees, looking for a web sponsor that will pay, a storefront for your own meds?  Now, just how are you different from where F&S was a few years ago?  You do know that's how they progressed, right?  Or is it just green eyed envy?

PJBoosinger August 27th, 2009 05:22:04 PM

Stefani: At least our products are subject to random inspections and we have professional licenses to retain. As much as you might question whether these measures do much to keep us in line you might want to note that government regulation of our enterprises is far more likely to yield serious penalties than consumer complaints. 

Of course, that's not to say that some bad apples don't flout these regs and get away with it, but the veterinary product/pharmacy scrutiny level is much, much higher than for a feed store, for example. Our penalties tend to be much stiffer and, arguably, we have more to lose when the regulators come after us.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 05:40:24 PM

"Most vets don't question refills."

PJB: You are NOT correct. We question them, decline them, require bloodwork, physicals, etc. You are DEAD wrong on that score. And if you're saying that I don't know where my vaccines come from, you're wrong there, too. The manufacturer tracks these right to my door. 

"AND MY OWN VETS OR VETS IN GENERAL DO????" [care more about their patients than their enterprises]

Are you just trying to insult me today? Because as much crap as I normally take from you I'm not in the mood today. Why, for once, can you not recognize that we are on the SAME side?

Still, I'll rebut: My enterprise in this context is the practice I work at. This practice doesn't supersede my patients' best interests nor would I work anywhere that were the case. When I practice medicine, I do so with my individual patients best interests FIRST in my mind because otherwise I would be, effectively, a veterinary whore. So WHAT exactly is it you're calling me?

With Drs. F&S––whom I do not support for their unwilingness to tell anyone where they get their Frontline or whom they deal with when sourcing gray market products and for participating in the circumvention of the VCPR as a standard for veterinary medical care––have weakened MY perception of my profession.

I am so very sorry that you have had such a terrible experience with my profession that two guys in white coats (whom, incidentally you'll only ever see on the upperhand corner of a web page and exist in your world only because they can offer you the best deal on the Web) are more worthy of your respect than your personal veterinarians. On behalf of veterinary medicine, I apologize. 

But most egregiously, you have wholly mischaracterized my career trajectory and my personal motivations. If you must twist my words to feed your snark then you should be looking elsewhere on the Web for a place that will take it. I have––until now––happily accepted your contrarian point of view. But clearly, PJB, this is not a place for you to continue to spew your venom just because it entertains you. 

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 06:06:39 PM

LorriM: With respect to vaccine location, I was referring to injection site sarcomas and how the vaccine site can determine life and death. Though newer vaccines (you referenced adjuvants) are less likely to cause sarcomas, they still do occur.

When the vaccine is administered low on the leg, a sarcoma need not be fatal, as is too often is if the vaccine is injected between the shoulder blades (as was the former standard of care) and yields a tumor there.

Sorry if I was not clear.  

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 06:11:17 PM

Dr. Khuly I can only say that if I still lived in South Florida my dogs could be taken care of by you.However,I live in upstate Ny with a great small town vet who I believe has my dogs best interests at heart.When he felt he was not the best person to advise us on an illness,he sent us to Cornell.I have lived all over the country and had some great vets take care of my pets.Thank you and all like you for caring about our animals.Don't let the Bast@$%# get you down.

Susan H August 27th, 2009 06:38:01 PM

"So WHAT exactly is it you're calling me?"  Exceptional but a bit deluded if you think the majority of vets share your standards.

How have I mischaracterized your intent to make money through other than providing direct veterinary care?  You've said that isn't paying the bills so you're moving to other sources.  I don't fault you for that, nor for working at an incorporated practice.  However, it warrants a look in the mirror before criticising others for similar behavior.

I've long since defended your right to censor here on your blog.  I'm not much in the mood today either.  You're not getting much sympathy or support today and if you wish to retaliate against me, go ahead.  I can take it. :)

PJBoosinger August 27th, 2009 06:59:07 PM

<<When the vaccine is administered low on the leg, a sarcoma need not be fatal, as is too often is if the vaccine is injected between the shoulder blades (as was the former standard of care) and yields a tumor there.>>

yes, but isn't that because of the ability to amputate the leg, not because the between the shoulder blades causes the sarcoma.

and it is still the vaccine additives that are the suspects in the sarcoma's unless something's changed since I last read up on this. I know merril has a 1 yr rabies that is now thimerisol free, but last I heard the 3 yr still contains it, but it has been a while since I read up on this, since I no longer vaccinate my cats at all, and my dogs only once every 3-4 years. And myself not all. No more damaged immune systems here....

LorriM August 27th, 2009 07:14:22 PM

Dr. K., I too, would LOVE to have you as my vet!  The number of vets I'll go to around here has just declined again (smile), and while it maybe does semi-support Stefani's and PJ's remarks ('cause there are vets - and lawyers and whatever Stefani does, and all professions out there - that aren't good) - you would be my first and only choice, if it was possible.  (I completely understand why you'd never move to NEOhio - or anywhere in Ohio, actually, but I'd drive to Columbus to see you, in case you ever think of joining a college's faculty, perhaps...?)  

KateH August 27th, 2009 07:19:54 PM

Is "Merril" Merial?

anna August 27th, 2009 08:08:14 PM

Yes Kate...sorry working on a tiny bit of sleep and not paying attention to spelling. Good thing you can figure out phontetics LOL

LorriM August 27th, 2009 08:33:29 PM

LorriM: Yes, it seems to be the vaccines' adjuvants that have been implicated in the sarcoma––though it's important to note that addressing the adjuvant issue has not completely resolved the VAS (vaccine associated sarcoma) issue. And yes, life and death in these cases hangs on the ability to remove the life-threatening tumor via amputation (as when a vaccine is administered low down on the leg) instead of through body-ectomy (as when it's administered in the more traditional, intrascapular location, as most novices are wont to do). 

The point is this: If you're not careful about which vaccine you choose and where you administer it, you may be courting the kind of trouble most veterinarians can help you avoid.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 09:45:48 PM

"...But that doesn’t mean I support the extra-veterinary sales of biologicals like vaccines––not by a long shot."

You don't support them by a long shot? He he. Was that intentional?

Larry August 27th, 2009 09:48:05 PM

Larry: You should know me by now. Nothing is as it seems. But when you're reading, maybe it's a bit more so than when others do.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 27th, 2009 09:56:00 PM

Actually, any type of inflammation, particularly more chronic inflamation can cause Fibrosarcomas in some cats. Adjuvated vaccines can certainly do it, but the misuse of certain types of suture, inflammed sebaceous cysts, abscesses, foreign bodies under the skin, healed fracture sites, etc. can all cause fibrosarcomas. It is fair to call fibrosarcomas in locations where vaccines were given "vaccine associated sarcomas", but they are really a response some cats have to certain types of inflammation. Perhaps someday in the near future we will have a genetic test or something that will enable us to identify cats that are at high risk, but until then the best thing is to have a good relationship with a veterinarian who is willing to discuss these issues with you and then make the best decisions about where, when and what to vaccinate with as Dr. Khuly describes.

Skeptivet

Bartimaeus August 27th, 2009 10:33:02 PM

Cats? Who's talking about cats? My first Scottie got a between the shoulder-blades fibrosarcoma in the mid-80's & died of the metastasis in the lungs (both) and heart. Could not get clean margins from the rapidly growing exterior portion.

Second horrible event was distemper vaccinosis (happened to be Fort Dodge), also a Scottie.

Third, more minor , was huge lump, eventually went away in one Sealyham.

And I agree about the vet clinic/professional that is discerning about "brands" & "types" of vaccines chosen.After all, who sees the inside skinny on reactions both serious and /or common?

I really don't consider F & S, themselves, to give a bad slight to the profession from a public POV. Two savvy guys that started up a successful business and then branched out into their own product line. With TEVA's recall & shutdown of the animal pharmaceutical/pet products line, and the recent Propofol recall...eegads, scary stuff everywhere.

My cats got their kittie shots, and then a few rabies, that's it. And lived pretty healthy & long lives. No leukemia vaccines either.

Barb A./NH August 27th, 2009 11:38:53 PM

Decided to take Dr. K's moody advice.

http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/

Wonder how fast this entry will disappear :)

PJBoosinger http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ August 27th, 2009 11:51:35 PM

Have their been any studies of effects of vaccines in immunocompromised cats?

I have two adults, now 9, who were born (or very shortly after birth) clobbered by herpes virus and a host of other problems.  Took 6 months of diligent care including interferon, opthalmic ointment (antibiotic and antiviral), antibiotics (2 or 3 at a time), flea, mite and worm treatments, etcetera to get them stable.  Frankly, I'm not sure they didn't have calici too.  I was warned they might lose eyes, but they didn't. 

However, one has permanently damaged ducts and seemingly damaged sinuses also.  Snot-flying sneezes and weeping eyes are daily things.  She also has an extra sensitive stomach and vomits for a varieity of reasons (ate too much, ate too fast, tolerates no grains, beef, pork, some veggies also seem to do it). 

Neither of them are "normal."  A stressful event (like moving, or a dental) can trip them into a URI flareup. 

Having an overactive/dysfunctional immune system myself, maybe I'm projecting, but it seems to me that the virus onslaught they had as lil wee ones has "set them up" for issues.  I always worry about vaccinations, because vaccinations can have some negative effects on people with immune disorders that are related to the immune system being over-sensitized, over-reactive, and dysfunctional (or perhaps disregulated is the better word).

I always wonder if I should be seeking to vaccinate them ** as little as possible **.

Any studies on this kind of thing?

Stefani August 28th, 2009 10:54:57 AM

I had one cat who was vaccinated at home on the recommendation of my vet. She was a permanent foster-- a semi-feral older mom-cat that I took in with her litter of kittens. The kittens were easily tamed; the mom, not so much. When the kittens were weaned and placed for adoption, I managed to catch the mom and take her in to be spayed. She was found to have a significant heart murmur, but as wild as she was, further testing was not much of an option. After her spay, I kept her in my home and eventually she came around enough to tolerate some minimal handling by me, but no one else (when husband or kids were around, she made herself invisible). One memorable and traumatic vet visit left myself, the vet, and a tech clawed to ribbons, and the tech with a bite as well. At that point, they suggested that I not stress her with transporting simply for vaccines, since to get her in a carrier she needed sedation, and with the known murmur, they felt the risk was greater than the benefit. As I was a volunteer who routinely gave vaccines at the shelter clinic, when she was due for vaccines, they called me, I picked them up, and gave them at home (they issued a vac certificate as well). Whenever this cat had health issues, I would sedate her and take her in for an exam, but she never tolerated it well. But I have never before or since given my own vaccines, regardless how well I trust the source, since I feel the exam is a vital part of their well-being.

Shellie August 28th, 2009 11:50:07 AM

"vaccines... I picked them up, and gave them... they issued a vac certificate as well"  There's a vet's name on those certificates?  I'll admit I don't know vet ethics, would that fly?

PJBoosinger August 28th, 2009 12:36:12 PM

Stefani: You should be seeking to vaccinate them as little as possible. But then, that's the recc for all vaccinates. Chronic herpesvirus cases can be vaccinated when their disease is at a lull (as you know, there's always a lull here and there). But here's where I think feline veterinarians shine. Not only does their higher caseload of these cases make them more expert on knowing just when, the lower-stress environment at these places means less stress at the time of vaccination. Not always doable to find a feline-only vet, but even if just for vaccination I think it's a great idea to drive farther.

***

On the issue of vaccine certificates for home-administered vaccines: It's legal for all vaccines except the rabies, which has to be administered by a veterinarian or while a veterinarian is on the premises (the working definition of "direct supervision").

Dr. Patty Khuly August 28th, 2009 12:55:57 PM

Thanks, Dr. K.  Actually they are in a "lull" most of the time, the snot flying phenomena and sneezing I have pretty much figured out is due to the damaged sinuses, not necessarily a sign of herpes flare.  Although sometimes she has to go on ABs when it looks like she might be getting a secondary (when the snot gets yellow, lovely).

Our vet's not feline only and she generally recommends that I give them FVRCP as scheduled because of what they could be exposed to at the vets.  Not sure that is good enough reason but so far have done what she recommends.  The FVRCP has been nasal drops.

Stefani August 28th, 2009 02:37:14 PM

In defense of Drs Foster and Smith, they do offer afforable prescriptions for many meds.  Alot of people are on fixed incomes and can easier afford their vaccines and prescription meds.  My vet often calls in prescriptions for me to them to help me get the best price on a expensive med.  I'm not on a fixed income but my vet has empathy for my pocketook.  Drs Fosters and Smith offers FREE prescription shipping as well. Pet owners need an alternative for their meds ,especially, a pricey med! Think of it this way, if it were not for Drs Foster and Smith, many would not buy a pricey med from their vet and their animal would not get the medication it needs.

Nancy Makowski

Temecula, Ca.

Nancy Makowski August 29th, 2009 11:14:45 AM

Thanks for that, Nancy. Actually, I defend anyone's right to find cheaper meds elsewhere. I'm happy to prescribe them. My position on that is pretty clear.

My beef with F&S and PetMeds––just as for the feed store I frequent and for Amazon, whose books I buy (and heartily recommend, as you can see if you look to the widget on the right hand side of Dolittler's page)––is that they do a sizable amount of gray market and vaccine work I cannot get behind.

Doesn't mean I won't defend your right to shop there. In fact, I've done so myself at places that sell Frontline (Amazon even gets in on the act).

Dr. Patty Khuly August 29th, 2009 01:03:47 PM

Hi Dr Khuly

I  must apologize, I should have clarified myself better when I wrote to you last.  I do not trust Pet Meds or Amazon or most of the internet drug suppliers. Many, are here today , gone tomorrow, and alot of them are definetly responsible for the couterfit type flea meds.

I do trust Drs foster and Smith . I know they  order in large 'non counterfit' drug quantities, sharing a good price with the consumer, and that they have an excellent reputation being in business longer than I can remember.  They have an excellent pharmacy. And have never been drawn into the 'counterfit' flea med (or other meds ) fiasco.  All their meds arrive beautifully packaged with excellent instructions for storage and use and get special arrival dates when needed.

Other than my vet, Drs Fos and Smith are the only place I'll buy from.  I do not buy their vacs from , my vets gives them  to my dogs ,and I so agree, to receive the proper benefit and correct vacs for each individaul dog or cat, one should take their dogs and cats to the vet. The only meds I buy from Drs Fos and Smith are Adequan and Proin and HeartGuard Plus . All other prescribed meds I get from my vet.  Unless a med is very pricey from my vet and if so, then he calls it in for me to Drs Fos and Smith  ,if , they have a better price.   I feel safe in this manner 

Nancy Makowski

Temecula, Ca.

Nancy Makowski August 30th, 2009 04:49:43 PM

Regardless of where vaccines are purhased for dogs and cats, there are  2  good reasons to have your vet do them.  # 1.  Your vet can custom design the proper vacs for your dog or cat. In this manner they do not run the risk of being over vaccinated which is not good for their immunse sytem.

#2.  If there should be a immediate reaction from your dog or cat to the vacs you are in the right place for  'stat' help.

Nancy Makowski August 30th, 2009 04:56:55 PM

My vaccines come to me by the same fedx/ups trucks that the vet's do.  They are labeled and licenced by the manufacturar and from a licensed distributer.  No difference there...

My radditional easons for not bothering with a vet for vaccines other than Rabies:

#1 they refused to order single disease vaccines even if I pay upfront in advance.

#2 I know from working as a tech, that they store the vaccines in a plain old fridge, with the same temperature lack of supervision that occurs at homes

#3 The rationale of "extra care" with the shots is usually just not true.  More often than not I'm out the door with the pet before even a quick reaction could occur.

#4 cost.  Frankly, nothing being offered equals the mark up.  A $4 shot is just not worth $20 plus office visit.

#5 I don't want my dogs, my pups especially, exposed to the active disease in a vets office.

#6 Every. Single. Time. I allow them to give a vaccine I spend half the visit educating them, fighting with them, about not giving multidisease vaccines that are neither necessary nor helpful.  It gets old.  Really.

Wendy August 31st, 2009 09:36:05 AM

Dr. K- Curious on Sharon's experience with her dog.  How can you be so sure that the vaccine she gave him was bad and not a broken blood vessel?  I find it quick to judge with so little info.

lovebeingamama October 21st, 2009 08:34:50 PM

[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us]cheap fake watches[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/]watches replica[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/]cheap replica watches[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us]watches for sale[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Franck/]Franck Muller watches[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Rolex/]Rolex replica[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Bvlgari/]Bvlgari watch for sale[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Rolex/Day%20Date/]replica Rolex Day Date[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Vacheron-Constantin/]Vacheron Constantin watch for sale[/url]<BR>[url=http://www.patekphilippewatches.us/Piaget/]replica Piaget[/url]<BR>

replica watch March 11th, 2010 12:22:24 PM